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Astral Projection

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Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9735
Printed Date: 30 October 2014 at 12:23pm


Topic: Astral Projection
Posted By: LivesByTheRiver
Subject: Astral Projection
Date Posted: 08 July 2007 at 3:38am
Is it considered wrong to attempt to project your consciousness outside of your body? If so then why?



Replies:
Posted By: LivesByTheRiver
Date Posted: 08 July 2007 at 3:40am
I have met a muslim who says he can make his soul travel outside of his body at will and says he can travel to other dimensions.  Whats your view on this?


Posted By: Allahuakbar501
Date Posted: 08 July 2007 at 6:09am
Sounds like something a sufi would say or some sort of monkery i dont know seems farfetched to me.


Posted By: LivesByTheRiver
Date Posted: 08 July 2007 at 9:44am
There are people who are totally blind from birth and who dont even dream with visual images who can see with their soul's eyes when they travel outside of their bodies.  So its kind of hard to discount those experiences.


Posted By: LivesByTheRiver
Date Posted: 08 July 2007 at 9:47am
Is this not a sign of some existance far greater than the reality that our 5 senses are used to?


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 July 2007 at 3:07pm

I think they need to lay off the drugs.

PCP and Ketamine (Dissassociative Drugs that are anesthetics used in some surgical procedures) can give you this effect by feeling like you are not "yourself" so to speak and give you the sensation of traveling outside your body. I'm not denying that it is impossible to travel in this form however given the laws of physics especially the physiological structure and the mental status I highly would consider such an act highly impossible. Even if it were possible to travel out of the body how does the individual know that they are not simply hallucinating?

Native Americans smoke Peyote, a hallucinogen, which gives them the effect that they see things in vivid images and are travelling to various dimensions. I'm really skeptical of people who say that they have been to far reaches of the universe because they don't have any proof. I can easily say I've travelled to the planet Mercury without showing proof.

To answer your question you said:

Is it considered wrong to attempt to project your consciousness outside of your body? If so then why?

Yes and no. Yes, as mentioned above given that spiritual travel is not something common to the average human or even "super human" how can there be any empirical proof that this type of experience is "real?" Meaning, how can I empirically experience what this person experienced? Frankly, it has never been accurately done before. How can you project your consciousness outside your body? This seems like Cartesian Dualism in a way because there is one side that says your consciousness is the assimilation of all your physiological structures in your brain. The other side says that your consciousness is your soul, so in that respect in a two part question, how can you project sometimthing apart of your physiological structure?

Also, how does your soul travel outside its body? The soul is encapsulated in the body and is the life force and without it, we would die so how do you make your soul (or int his case consciousness) travel?

Also no, it may not be wrong to attempt to project your consciousness outside your body because nothing is wrong to the one experiencing it. Our subjective truths are true to us.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 July 2007 at 9:06pm

Originally posted by Israfil

Even if it were possible to travel out of the body how does the individual know that they are not simply hallucinating?

When you know that you haven't taken any drugs or anything else

It seems like that people have forgotten about Muhammad and his one night travel so far away  did Muhammad take some kind of drug?



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 12:27am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Sounds like something a sufi would say or some sort of monkery i dont know seems farfetched to me.

To begin withg GROW UP, if i was to quote you the list of shaykhs who where ""sufi's"" and whom you just insulted you would feel disgusted with yourself, no doubt you follow them without even knowing and  the only thing you know about tassawuf is from gossip and third hand information.

Educate yourself then speak! http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=21557 -

this article deals with something similar to astral projection,

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=21557 - http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?ar ticleID=21557

this paper deals with remote viewing,

Unconventional Human Intelligence Support: Transcendent and Asymmetric Warfare Implications of Remote Viewing:
http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/library/Bremseth.pdf -
http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/library/Bremseth.pdf

by:Commander L. R. Bremseth, United States Navy, 28 April 2001


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 12:41am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by Israfil

Even if it were possible to travel out of the body how does the individual know that they are not simply hallucinating?

When you know that you haven't taken any drugs or anything else

It seems like that people have forgotten about Muhammad and his one night travel so far away  did Muhammad take some kind of drug?

Angel were you asking me: "What if you haven't taken any drugs or anything that alters your state of mind?" Well, this would depend on your short and long term memory and whether or not they are activating to give you the correct memories to conjure.

I also haven't forgotten about Muhammad's night journey. You must have forgotten that it is not universal on exactly the state of the prophet. Some believe he was asleep, others believe that he took an actual conscious out-of-body travel to the 7 levels of Heaven. The prophet wasn't naturally super natural either. All that he did was by God's will therefore, the spiritual travel he made was not of his own doing anyway but by God's and besides, prophets and their abilities aren't necessarily "normal" so this is perhaps an exception to the rule.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 1:04am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Some believe he was asleep, others believe that he took an actual conscious out-of-body travel to the 7 levels of Heaven

This isnt correct, the difference is in whether or not he made the journey physically or his spirit alone [see muhammad asad notes in his translation of the quran] , no one ever claimed he was sleeping ie having a dream and this would be kufr to say since allah said he took him and the prophet [sallahllahu alaihi wa sallam] said he went to Jerusalem and described its physical aspect as proof of his journey.

this itself is testimony to the existence of this phenomenon, you also can not use an assumption to negate what is within the realm of possibility you would need explicit evidence for that, i have never seen anything from any islamic source.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Allahuakbar501
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 2:30am

Sounds like something a sufi would say or some sort of monkery i dont know seems farfetched to me.

"To begin withg GROW UP, if i was to quote you the list of shaykhs who where ""sufi's"" and whom you just insulted you would feel disgusted with yourself, no doubt you follow them without even knowing and  the only thing you know about tassawuf is from gossip and third hand information."

Please give me these list of Shaykhs I'll give you their list of Bid'a!

 



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 7:29am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

ill say just a few,

Shaykh Ibn taymiyah
Shaykhs Abdul wahhab and sulaiman ibn abdul wahhab, the father and brothers of muhammad ibn abdul wahhab.
Imam an Nawawi
Imam Tirmidhi
Hasan al basri
Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani
Imam al suyuti
al Tabari
ibn al jawzi
Imam Abu Hanifah
Imam jafar as sidiq, his teacher
Imam Malik,
Imam Shafii,
Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal,
Imam al Ghazali
Imam abdul Qadir al Gilani


lets see that list of bidah they have committed oh knowledgeable one.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Allahuakbar501
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 2:01pm

the only Sufis you listed were Imam Al Ghazali and Imam abdul Qadir al Gilani, as far as Imam Al-Ghazali goes Just see what Ibn Taimiyah and Imam an-Nawawi said about him and come to think of it I dont even think Imam Abdul Qair al Gilani was a sufi either some Sufis just named the Qardiriyyah after him. Are you a Sufi? and if so you should start following the way of the Salaf and leave Innovated sects alone.



Posted By: LivesByTheRiver
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 2:54pm

Allahuakbar how do you determine exactly what an innovation is? 

What range of things does this include? 



Posted By: LivesByTheRiver
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 3:03pm
Is a belief for example in the reality of extra terrestrial life considered an innovation since ETs are not mentioned in either the Quran or Hadith?


Posted By: LivesByTheRiver
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 3:07pm
Whats the difference between innovation and newly discovered knowledge about things and how they work? 


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 5:19pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

the only Sufis you listed were Imam Al Ghazali and Imam abdul Qadir al Gilani, as far as Imam Al-Ghazali goes Just see what Ibn Taimiyah and Imam an-Nawawi said about him and come to think of it I dont even think Imam Abdul Qair al Gilani was a sufi either some Sufis just named the Qardiriyyah after him. Are you a Sufi? and if so you should start following the way of the Salaf and leave Innovated sects alone.

rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] said my religion will find ruin at the hands of its youth, i believe he was talking about people who speak without knowledge and asert there ignorace as being truth i believe he was talking about people like you who asert things and chalange people while not having bothered to even research and see if what the other person is saying is true.

go do your research grasshopper you have much to learn.



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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 5:23pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Allahuakbar how do you determine exactly what an innovation is? 

What range of things does this include?

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/bida.htm" target="mainFrame - The Concept of Bida' in the Islamic Sharia

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/hadith.htm" target="mainFrame - What is the distinction between hadith and Sunna?


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Allahuakbar501
Date Posted: 09 July 2007 at 10:10pm

Allahuakbar how do you determine exactly what an innovation is? an Innovation is when someone brings into Islam something that was not their during the time of the Prophet(saw).

What range of things does this include? This range can Include Shia's with Imamology were they venerate there Imams or Sufi's Chanting in Circles jumping up and down saying Allah over and over again etc etc etc.

Whats the difference between innovation and newly discovered knowledge about things and how they work? The Difference is a Bid'a is something brought into the worship of Islam and newly discovered Knowledge discovered knowledge remains outside of it so theres nothing wrong if study mathematic, astronomy etc but when you start mixing Islam with Greek philosophy and stuff like that you will go astray.

"go do your research grasshopper you have much to learn." I have no need to challenge anyone on the fact that Sufism is a Innovated sect with unacceptable acts of Innovations in worship this has already been proven so what makes you think you can prove it wrong.

AND IF YOU SAY THAT Shaykh Ibn taymiyah, Shaykhs Abdul wahhab and sulaiman ibn abdul wahhab, the father and brothers of muhammad ibn abdul wahhab.Imam an Nawawi, Imam Tirmidhi, Hasan al basri, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Imam al suyuti, al Tabari, ibn al jawzi, Imam Abu Hanifah,Imam jafar as sidiq, his teacher, Imam Malik, Imam Shafii,Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, WERE SUFIS YOU HAVE MUCH TO LEARN. IM THROUGH WITH THEOLOGICAL RHETOERIC ON THE COUNT OF THOSE WHO TRY TO DEFEND THERE FALSE CLAIMS



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 10 July 2007 at 12:50am
Originally posted by Allahuakbar501

the only Sufis you listed were Imam Al Ghazali and Imam abdul Qadir al Gilani, as far as Imam Al-Ghazali goes Just see what Ibn Taimiyah and Imam an-Nawawi said about him and come to think of it I dont even think Imam Abdul Qair al Gilani was a sufi either some Sufis just named the Qardiriyyah after him.

This shows your complete ignorance. Seriously. Your a new convert with your set of Bilal Philips lectures and now you are able to make such wide, sweeping remarks? Simply amazing. 

The wahabis turn out "scholars" and "experts" in less than 6 years, it took Umar (ra) 7 years to learn Surah Al Baqarah alone from the Prophet (saw) himself. I am not sure how you are so comfortable to make such powerful remarks with only your lectures of Bilal Phillips. 

What do you know of Hujjat Al Islam, Imam Al Ghazali? Have you even read a single work by him? Are you prepared to be so confident to slander one of the greatest of the Ulema who has ever lived (not my opinion, but a major opinion that is agreed upon by the majority of scholars that have lived since him) because of a few sophomoric websites you study and a set of Bilal Phillip's lectures? Your only defense of your truly cursory approach to this topic is to exclaim that we should see what Ibn Taymiyya says (as if that actually matters) and Imam Al-Nawawi says? You are not even able to argue with Imam Nawawi as a source (if so you would have done it), and I know you have not looked at all the other positions on Imam Al Ghazali. How smplistic. How intellectually bankrupt.

 

  

 

Are you a Sufi? and if so you should start following the way of the Salaf and leave Innovated sects alone.

1) I wish I could be a sufi, but I am not an expert at fiqh and tasawuuf, and I have not the discipline.

2) The salaf are all dead and what we have left are the four schools of fiqh as methodologies to derive religous ruling. Anyone who claims to be a salaf is either very ignorant or a liar, as that was a time period, and that time period is gone.

 



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 10 July 2007 at 1:22am
Originally posted by Allahuakbar501

Allahuakbar how do you determine exactly what an innovation is? an Innovation is when someone brings into Islam something that was not their during the time of the Prophet(saw).

Obviously he and Bilal Phillips have discarded bound Qurans from printing presses and instead turn to bones and leaves to recite Quran from. I am sure that the "dots" on the script have been removed, after all, we have to be pure of innovation. No study of tafsir, as this science is an "innovation", etc, etc.

 

 

What range of things does this include? This range can Include Shia's with Imamology were they venerate there Imams or Sufi's Chanting in Circles jumping up and down saying Allah over and over again etc etc etc.

This is really an over simplistic statement, and the product of "neo-salafi" "free pamplets" on Islam. This overly simplistic overly mechanical overly juvenile approach to religion is funny, I have always imagined neosalafs walking around with counters in their pocket, so they will know when there quotas of saying "Allah" or "Allahu AKbar" or "Astaghfurallah" have been met, such that they have to wait until the next day to start their new quotas. It is funny. Could you prove what the exact number of "Allahs" with evidence that limits it to some limit and what bodily actions are permissible when you say "Allah".

 

Whats the difference between innovation and newly discovered knowledge about things and how they work? The Difference is a Bid'a is something brought into the worship of Islam and newly discovered Knowledge discovered knowledge remains outside of it so theres nothing wrong if study mathematic, astronomy etc but when you start mixing Islam with Greek philosophy and stuff like that you will go astray.

Like the dots on the Arabic letters.

 

"go do your research grasshopper you have much to learn." I have no need to challenge anyone on the fact that Sufism is a Innovated sect with unacceptable acts of Innovations in worship this has already been proven so what makes you think you can prove it wrong.

AND IF YOU SAY THAT Shaykh Ibn taymiyah, Shaykhs Abdul wahhab and sulaiman ibn abdul wahhab, the father and brothers of muhammad ibn abdul wahhab.Imam an Nawawi, Imam Tirmidhi, Hasan al basri, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Imam al suyuti, al Tabari, ibn al jawzi, Imam Abu Hanifah,Imam jafar as sidiq, his teacher, Imam Malik, Imam Shafii,Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, WERE SUFIS YOU HAVE MUCH TO LEARN. IM THROUGH WITH THEOLOGICAL RHETOERIC ON THE COUNT OF THOSE WHO TRY TO DEFEND THERE FALSE CLAIMS

This is funny, and sad. At least go out and read these people's works on their own, not from wahabi commentaries. These men were great scholars and sufis. 



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Allahuakbar501
Date Posted: 10 July 2007 at 3:27am

"Linquistically Bid'ah(innovation) means a 'newly invented matter"

"The Shar'ia definition of Bid'ah is: "A newly invented way (Beliefs or action) in the religion, in imitation of the shar'ia, by which nearness to Allah is sought, but not being supported by any authenic proof- neither in its foundations, nor in the manner in which it was performed."--Imam ash-shaatibee

Ibn Umar(ra) said: "Every innovation is misguidance, even if the people see it as something good"

I have read works by Ibn taymiyah, Abdul wahhab, Abu Hanifah, Imam Malik, Imam Tirmidhi, Imam Shafii, Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal etc and none of them tought what the sufis do so you must joking and ive noticed people will make assumptions as to what i have read or what I have not and act like they know me

Al-Qur'an 49:11-12 "O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong. O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah: For Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful."



 



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 10 July 2007 at 7:08am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

There is no point continuing a vague discussion about sufism becoue every time i mention the word no doubt you will bring up in your mind some vague and weird thing you have read or heard somewhere about them and put up a defensive wall and refuse to actually investigate and check if what you have read in the past was a) accurate and b) true.

How did you arrive at the truth of islam if not by investigation.

Br i can easily show you that these scholars practiced tassawuf the science of purifying the heart from evil and bad character traits by quoting to you from there works directly.

you must be familiar with the work Tablis iblis by Imam Ibn al jawzi, this is a classical work written against the Shi`a and the wayward Sufis [as aposed to sufi's in there entiraty] the mistake of the uneducated and un-scholarly is to take the practices of some and apply it to the majority. I have met many muslims who say sufi this or sufi that but when you inform them that there are countless numbers of sufi schools all teaching diferent things they are stunned and dont know what to say becouse they have been mentally conditioned by the rhetoric they read just like non muslims are now doing the same to muslim becouse of the actions of a few.

Anything you may have read from Ibn taymiyah or imam Nawawi about tassawuf is only dealing with one aspect of it becouse Imam nawawi without a doubt was a sufi and a mujtahid imam who authored many sufi works. Ibn taymiyah himself said he wa a shaykh in the Qadiri tariqah of Imam Abdul Qadir al Gilani and that he had worn his cloak, references can be provided easily if you like with the exact quotes.

so please dont assert yourself when clearly you have not done the research.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 1:37am

this may fall on deaf ears

but anyway....

Originally posted by Allahuakbar501

I have no need to challenge anyone on the fact that Sufism is a Innovated sect with unacceptable acts of Innovations in worship this has already been proven so what makes you think you can prove it wrong.

I understand there was/is some group that may call themselves sufis that is not islam, BUT i have studied much and there is a lot here at the boards. Sufism is the heart of islam it is the tulwaad, it is the spiritual side of islam.

GO and search this site, read up on my decisions from the past and you will realise that you don't know much as you think you do.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 1:39am

I think that is enough about sufism here in this thread, if anyone wants to continue first look it up and continue in one of the many threads available.

Now time to go back to astral traveling....before the thread gets closesd

 

your non offical moderator!



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: LivesByTheRiver
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Allahuakbar501

Allahuakbar how do you determine exactly what an innovation is? an Innovation is when someone brings into Islam something that was not their during the time of the Prophet(saw).

What range of things does this include? This range can Include Shia's with Imamology were they venerate there Imams or Sufi's Chanting in Circles jumping up and down saying Allah over and over again etc etc etc.

Whats the difference between innovation and newly discovered knowledge about things and how they work? The Difference is a Bid'a is something brought into the worship of Islam and newly discovered Knowledge discovered knowledge remains outside of it so theres nothing wrong if study mathematic, astronomy etc but when you start mixing Islam with Greek philosophy and stuff like that you will go astray.

How would you know whether or not something is an extension of what islam has revealed or what is something (for example an idea) that falls outside of or contradicts islamic thought?

For example to say that aliens do not exist because they are not mentioned in the Quran or hadith means that you are saying God or Allah is limited in his ability to create life in the universe and only limiting to this planet earth.  After all the Quran says Allah is allpowerful.  How do you resolve this matter to yourself?




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