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How first impressions can be hurtful....

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URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9565
Printed Date: 02 September 2014 at 9:54am


Topic: How first impressions can be hurtful....
Posted By: Angela
Subject: How first impressions can be hurtful....
Date Posted: 19 June 2007 at 8:33pm
I have been a member of this board for nearly two years and I'm not sure if I've ever told the story of my first introduction to Islam and how that clouded my view of Muslims for over 11 years.

In 1995, I had a chance to travel to Washington, DC with several students from various ethnic and religious backgrounds who were studying at the prestigeous Pennsylvania Govenor's School of International Studies, a summer program for high school students.  We had representatives from every ethnic background, asian, european, jewish, muslim, black, white, rich and poor.  

During our one week trip to DC, we had the honor of going to the Islamic Mosque and Cultural Center on Massachusetts Ave.  Now, there was a boy with us named Aziz (for his sake I will not give his last name) and I point this out for one reason.  The girls were not properly informed of what to wear that day.  However, we were all dressed nicely as we were also visiting several Embassies that same day.

Upon arriving, we entered the Mosque.  They had mentioned headscarves and I brought my babushka (russian headscarf) that I wore to church.  I covered my head, but my skirt only came below the knees, not all the way to the ankle.  Needless to say, after getting inside and seeing the Muslim women coming and going, several of us realized that we were improperly dressed but it was too late.  We were not offered overskirts but just ushered through and then given time with a Muslim man to ask questions.  Aziz had not even warned us girls and he was Muslim.

Now, here is a group of 17 year old girls who have suddenly found themselves underdressed trying to cover our legs with purses and whatever we had on hand.  We really tried and we tried to be very respectful and ask questions.

Thinking back, the man who was our "guide" was probably Indonesian or possibly one of the other Southeast Asian countries.  He was not Arab.  That was cool because it let us know how far spread Islam has become.  Now, here is where things really got bad.

You had about 30-40 students, of all of those, only ONE, knew anything about Islam.  When the question of the status of women in Islam came up from one of us girls, the man became very rude towards the girl.  Her question was very typical of girls who know nothing about Islam.  As I remember it, she asked why women wore the headscarf.  Again, his answer was very rude and did not explain anything about why the veil is an important protection for a woman.

It was not only his explaination of the veil but it was also his treatment of the young girls in the group.  It was if we were beneath his efforts to explain things to us and to teach us.  And sadly, we all left thinking how much of a jerk he was and how we felt bad for the poor muslim women being forced to wear scarves because they might go out and have sex if they didn't wear it.

This is the view I had of Islam for 11 years.  Reinforced by images of the Taliban after the Embassy bombings in Africa.  It only got worse 6 years later on September 11th, 2001 and again on July 7, 2004.  It was only after the London Bombings that I decided once again to
learn about Islam.  But, instead of looking at Islam as a spiritual option, I came here to Islamicity to find out why Muslims hated us so much.  Why men like I had met 9 years earlier wanted to lock women in the house and kill all non muslims? 

I was a very lost 17 year old girl.  Only a year later I became severely disillusioned with Christianity and began a search for something else.  I looked into Buddhism, Wicca, Hinduism, Taoism and many other faiths.  Because of that experience in the mosque, I never once even considered Islam a possibility.  I already new it was an evil religion.  And so, I dwindled in unbelief for many years before returning to the Russian Orthodox Church and then later converting to Mormonism because traditional christianity was still not the place for me. 

So, where would I be today if that man in that Mosque had been respectful and kind to the young girls who knew nothing of his faith?  There is a strong possibility I would have looked towards Islam when I did my soul searching, perhaps even reading the Quran and going to another Mosque in search of more answers.  Its possible, today, I would be Muslim.

Now, after all that, what is my purpose for telling this story.  There are several new members to this site who have been continually insulting all western teenage girls, western women or just in general anyone who isn't Muslim.  I ask all of you (especially the Moderators) to read over this story again.  There are other Angela's out there who are right now lost, they are looking for faith, for God and for stability.  They may have suffered molestation as a child or had fallen into sin.  They may have never had religion in their life, or had too much religion and found a distaste for the faith of their parents.  But, they are out there and they are searching. 

If you search on Google for Islam, Islamicity is the 5th site down.  That is how I found you.  This site has been instrumental in my learning about Islam.  How do you want people who come here to see your religion?  Do you want them to see the beautiful faith that was brought to us by the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)?  Do you want them to see that God is there for those who repent and turn from sin?  Do you want them to see that there is a better way?  Or do you want them to close off to it because they've been called bastards and sluts?  Do you want them to see posts indicating that its okay to kill someone who insults the Prophet Muhammmed (pbuh) even if that person is uneducated and doesn't know anything about the man?

Believe it or not, this site is a very, very, very important site for Dawah.  Those members you tolerate with their illmannered posts are keeping people from Islam and they are sowing the seeds of contention.  They are in effect creating more people like me, who in a time when they needed Islam the most, were robbed of what Islam really is and only see what perversion of Islam is in their sick minds.

Please, when one of these men or women show up.  Don't let it go 400 posts before you act.  And for those who are not Moderators, taking time to be patient.  Don't suffer the evangelists but please don't treat every question as an insult.  If a religion can withstand scrutiny, it will prevail.  Don't be afraid to be challenged.  If you are right, you will eventually get through to the person.  It might not be now, but it might be years from now. 

" Verily, you will not guide everyone whom you love, but Allah guides whom He wills and He knows best those who Will guided" (Qur'an 28:56)



Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 1:03am

Interesting post Angela.

You seem to have a well rounded view of religions. Without getting too personal and off track, how much in depth did your religious search take you in the other faiths you encountered?



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 7:48am

Thanks Angela,

You are completely right!  



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by Angela

Now, here is where things really got bad...And sadly, we all left thinking how much of a jerk he was and how we felt bad for the poor muslim women being forced to wear scarves because they might go out and have sex if they didn't wear it...I came here to Islamicity to find out why Muslims hated us so much.  Why men like I had met 9 years earlier wanted to lock women in the house and kill all non muslims? ...I never once even considered Islam a possibility.  I already new it was an evil religion. ...How do you want people who come here to see your religion? ...Those members you tolerate with their illmannered posts are keeping people from Islam and they are sowing the seeds of contention ... only see what perversion of Islam is in their sick minds.

Let's rephrase this:

"If Islam were more flexible and could be reformed to something more compatible with western practices, more people would join it. People who don't agree with this, have a sick mind. They are the ones who are perverting Islam, not the reformers. Muslims oppress women, lock them up in the house, and prevent them from having sex and so on. That is sowing the seeds of contention!"

You are not interested in joining Islam but in reforming it, and it is frustrating that the Muslims are not interested in reform. For a starters, they should cut you some slack in terms of dress code. That would be the very least.

Very interesting.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 10:48pm

Crass,

Since you are utterly hopeless in comprehending simple english let me break it down. Angela is saying how her first impression can have an adverse effect on the opinions of those who have little to no knowledge of Islam. the muslim man she encountered with a bad attitude was a prime example. It's clear that if a Muslim gets defensive when someone asks a simple, unintrusive, non-disrespectful question then there is an obvious problem with the individual him/herself.

Basically what it boils down to is if you want people to have a positive understanding of your religion the encounter itself must be positive. I'm sure the prophet didn't go around spreading the word of Islam and got annoyed if someone asked him a question. I'm sure he spread the word of Islam with patience, intelligence and kindness and that is something we as Muslims should immulate. One of the aspects of Islam is dialogue and actually this is one notable element we can say that has spreaded the word of Islam to vast European and Asian countries.

 



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Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 4:38am
Originally posted by Israfil

Since you are utterly hopeless in comprehending simple english let me break it down.

Thanks, Israfil, please break it down for me.



Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 5:26am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

You know angela so many times reading your posts i prayed to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that He opens up the ways for you and i know you wont take it wrong thats why i am saying this.

I tell you an incident in the life time of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam. Once Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam was in the mosque with his companions radhiAllah anhuma and a non muslim came and urinated in the area of mosque. Few companion wanted to go and behead him, Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam told them to put some dust on the place and explain to the person not to do it again as we put our foreheads on the ground.

He was a different man, he forgave people who chewed his uncle's liver. Don't get me wrong when it came to enforcement of laws of our dear Lord, there was no leniency in that. I wish muslim would understand that it is one of those times when their individual acts and their behaviour is taken as representative of islam.

Wassalam



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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 8:07am
Peace Bros and Sisters,

Sister Angela, thank you for your soulful post. It has reminded
something of my own experiences (even a Muslim amongst Muslims,
non-muslims)

I would, perhaps, think of the 'first impressions' like this...
A recent example:
A brother calls those of us with western mothers the children of 'sluts',
the 'whorehouse' America, etc. because they are Christian, American, etc.

In some sites, that's it. It's that viewpoint and nothing else.

But then, in half a jiffy, (if our impressionable reader continues down the
page) there is the community response. And often, the good guys show
up.

See, Angela. what I think you will find useful is, rather than the
immediate censor or dismissal of him, is that all sorts of others jump on
in the social tajine and protest; that this is rather poor behavior for a
muslim, and/or that citing traditional islamic sources should be done
while judging, etc.   

Though it is painful sometimes to hold back when having your loved
one's attacked, it is the follow-up responses (including our own) that give
the forum it's currency.

So, instead of there being some violent post
(that then is deleted, or disappears of mod removal) there is something of
a Islamicity consensus, which lets others see how this muslim community
deals with it's problems.

It's lovely in a sort of modern primitive way. And it is free, honest public
relations for the intentions of the Muslim community -

Some thoughts you have inspired, Sis Angela.

Bless y'all,
Jam

p.s I fleshed out this first response a bit based on Bro aka2x2's response
below.





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Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 10:11am

Angela/Jamal,

 

I have witnessed a lot of cruelty of man upon man in my life. Sometimes it was with words and oftentimes with action. It never ceases to amaze how hard some hearts are.

 

I am sorry for the mean spirited words that have hurt you both. I thought about what you said and what solutions there may be. Your hurt has touched me and I wanted to agree with you and offer ways to shut up the voices of hate on this forum. But, that would be censorship and I do not agree that censorship is the answer.

 

Free speech is what makes this forum attractive to Muslims and Non-Muslims alike. Censorship would destroy the very reason this site is as popular as Angela says it is. Ordinary Muslim masses have been censored for too long. We have been silent while dictators ruled over us. We have been silent while fake leaders hijacked our religion. We have been silent while other ideologies challenged us. Now the internet has offered us a way to voice our thoughts and opinions.

 

Some of us have chosen to use this opportunity to learn and share knowledge. Others use this forum to make new friends. Others regurgitate the same small minded empty rhetoric that the illiterate sheiks of the 18th century spewed while their fortune was being pillaged.

 

I believe Allah wants good and bad to confront each other. That is why He allowed evil to exist in the first place. I believe it is best that the confrontation is public. Allah shall guide whomsoever He chooses with the good words and misguide whomsoever He chooses with the bad words.



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Respectfully
aka2x2


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Interesting post Angela.

You seem to have a well rounded view of religions. Without getting too personal and off track, how much in depth did your religious search take you in the other faiths you encountered?



I don't think that is too off track.  I will say that some I am better versed in than others.  I quickly realized Buddhism and Taoism were not for me.  I was very interested in Wicca....that I can say I am very familiar with and Hinduism.  Hinduism was never a religion I studied to practice, it was more of a curiosity for me. 

Of all the religions out there, save the different sects of Christianity, I can say, I learned more about Islam in the last two years than I have all the others.  I only delved enough to get a feel for the faith, I could tell in my heart if it was worth going any further. 

Islam is such a paradox for me.  How something so simple, so easy can be made so complicated by the people who follow it.  It really is so very simple, then you get into things like Fiqh, Sunna, Sharia, sectarianism.  No wonder Khadijah1021 refuses to call herself by terms like Sunni, or Shia, or Sufi.....for her its just Islam and people are just Muslims.

I have seen the best of Islam on this website, and I have seen glimpses into a darkness that pervades those who don't heed the manners and example of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). 

I showed my husband "The Message" movie last year, hoping to spark his interest.  We had a long talk about it.  If more Muslims were to really follow the lessons he taught instead of focusing on the negatives, our world would be a wonderful place.

Islam doesn't need to conform to western society.  The most perfect and harmonious example of a society of learning came during the Golden Age of Spain.  The moors gave rights to Christian and Jew and learning flourished.  Freedoms flourished. 

Its those who take away freewill that I fear.  The Quran says there is no compulsion in religion because the truth stands by itself.  Man is imperfect.

My spiritual journey took me down paths both full of light and love and full of darkness and misery.  The further from God I got, the more miserable I was.  My posting this story is to show to all of you that you actions are like sign posts on the paths.  If you are welcoming, you can help guide someone down the path of light, but if you are menacing, they may flee down the wrong path to escape you.  All the while, you block the truth's light with your own darkness.


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Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by Jamal Morelli

...the 'whorehouse' America, etc. because they are Christian...

If they were really Christian, they wouldn't be called a 'whorehouse'.

Even though the Quran elaborates on certain imperfections in Christian theology, such as inventing human family members of the One God, it is also clear that the Quran has sympathy for the people of the Book, if they really follow the morals taught in the Book.

Let's say that there are a few unpleasant truths about the West, concerning these morals:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/10/death_of_marriage_in_scandinavia/ - Data from European demographers and statistical bureaus show that a majority of children in Sweden and Norway are now born out of wedlock, as are 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark.

The 'whorehouse' problem in formerly Christian countries is not related to Christianity, but to the "modernization" and even outright abolition of Christianity.

The truth is that the West does not only reject Islam, it also rejects traditional Christian morality, in terms of which the West is also considered to be a 'whorehouse'. In fact, there is not one religion in terms of which the West is not considered to be a 'whorehouse'.

Why don't former Christians re-adopt the morality of the bible, if they can't accept Islam? That would create a minimum of compatibility that does not exist today. On the other hand, I seriously doubt that the problem can still be solved, and therefore, I think it is more interesting to let this problem simply evolve to its logical conclusion.



Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 3:22am
Dear Angela, thank you for posting your first impressions story, as usual
your wisdom shines through.

I agree with you, and am reminded once again of Sister Maryah who
invariably shows up and teaches us all a lesson just when we need it, and
that lesson is COMPASSION. How hard that is for all of us!


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 3:44am
Jamal and aka2x2,

There is a difference between censorship and reminders about forum guidelines.  As long as one remains within the agreed upon rules that this forums discussions are based upon, I have no problem with postings.

Discussions about chasity and modesty are hot topics on LDS forums that I visit.  Discussions on the degrading society and such.  However, conversations are conducted in a calm and rational manner.  If one were to view our conversations, they would see reasons and encouragement to turn away from the "acceptable" sins in todays society without derogatory and hurtful insults thrust at the lost.

There is a love to be expressed for the lost and a hand extended to them to return them to God's loving embrace.  Repentence is a cornerstone of Faith.  And there are two ways to call people to repentence.  There is the fire and brimstone screaming street preacher.....and we all know how effective they are.  And the second way, to show compassion and set an example, calling the people away from sin and showing them the true freedoms and happiness derived from a moral existence. 

I am reminded how Jesus stopped the men from stoning the adultress and told her to go forth and sin no more.  Believe he is Prophet or Son, Jesus spoke as a messanger from God.  He taught repentence, forgiveness and love. 

I am not saying censorship.  I certainly have been censored enough in my past here.  However, certain behaviours are unacceptable and are not tolerated from anyone.  Certainly, if it were a different situation, the posts would have been deleted and the person banned (as in the case of several offensive Non Muslims).

Western Women are one of the fastest growing groups of converts to Islam.  Thousands in Europe and North America have taken their Shahadas.  I cringe to think of all the women who've reverted to Islam, how many would have rethought their actions when faced with being told that they are sluts and bastards simply because of the color of their skin or their citizenship.

Islam does not believe in Original Sin, they do not believe in the concept of the sin passing from the parents to the child.  Even when the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) stoned a girl who had become pregnant.  He told her relatives to take her and treat her kindly until she gave birth, then bring her to him after she had the child.  He even prayed over her body because of her repentence.  Now, you know how I feel about stoning.  But, kindness and compassion were shown to the sinner, even as her punishment was being handed out.  This tells me there is a great disparity between the way of the Prophet and the actions of some of those who claim to follow him.

Sadly, I wish it were only one or two.  I cry that this attitude is more pervasive than any of us really have a clue.  Its not westernization if you're following the example of your Prophet.  Fatima showed a wonderful example of Muhammed's (pbuh) forgiveness and teaching.  The other one I like is about a man who used to insult the Prophet (pbuh) every day.  One day, he was not around, because he was ill.  The Prophet (pbuh) checked on him to see if he was okay.  Does this sound like a man who would approve of the maligning of thousands of innocent women?  No. 





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Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 5:59am
Originally posted by Angela

I cringe to think of all the women who've reverted to Islam, how many would have rethought their actions when faced with being told that they are sluts and bastards simply because of the color of their skin or their citizenship.

Their past is not necessarily publicly known -- better to shut up about it -- and I don't think anybody would insult a woman dressed in hijab. On the contrary, I believe that dressing in hijab instills respect. The more modestly and decently dressed, the better!




Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 6:15am
Not all reverts where Hijab in the traditional sense.  I know many Muslimas both reverts and born Muslimas who cover but don't where the headscarf.  Hijab is not just a piece of cloth for the head.  I personally wear cloths that cover from my neck to below the knee.  Often clear to the ankle.  You shouldn't assume since there is no scarf on the head that the woman isn't chaste.  Or that she's not Muslim for that matter.  Modesty is a state of being, not a state of dress.  If a person is modest, it will show in her actions.  She won't make crude jokes, use profanity or indulge in racy talk.

Besides, I was told by a friend who was engaged to a Moroccan man that often prostitutes in Middle Eastern countries will wear full hijab and even niqab.  Its not the dress, its the person in it.  So, basically, you're saying that if a woman isn't in the headscarf, she's worthy of insult?  No matter if she is Muslim or not?  And that its okay to overlook the sins of the revert, but its not okay to encourage other sinners to turn away from sin? 

And if you don't think anyone would insult a woman in hijab, go to Youtube and search for Hijab.  You'll find both wonderful testimonies and outright insults.  The cloth doesn't protect you from insult.  People minding their own tongues protects from insults.

You can't expect to be respected, if you never take the time to show it.






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Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 6:42am
Originally posted by Angela

And that its okay to overlook the sins of the revert

We don't know the sins of any particular revert, and I believe it is better to keep such sins to one self. Look, if she dresses in hijab in public, how could anybody know anything more than that? We just appreciate the fact that she dresses decently, and that's it, really.
Originally posted by Angela

its not okay to encourage other sinners to turn away from sin?

Why not? Some people may be susceptible to the arguments and be interested in quitting a bad lifestyle. There is,however, no value in advertising one's former lifestyle. I really think it is better to keep quiet about it.



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 7:01am
If the possibility of redemption is never known, then how will they know its possible?  Perhaps they will think themselves beyond redemption.  And we are assuming that they are in a sinful way when they look to find faith. 

At 17, I was very much an innocent and remained that way for several more years.  When I began my spiritual journey, I didn't smoke, drink, go around with boys.  I literally went from attending church every sunday and teaching Sunday school to wondering if there really was a God and what did he really teach.

That man at the mosque treated us much like you treat western women.  Had you met me that day, you would have looked at my skirt and assumed the worst, even though it came to below the knee.  You would have been very wrong.  You are very wrong about a great many girls.  Your hateful words and actions will only turn away the girls that need God the most.

Whether they are sinners or just lost spiritually they deserve the benefit of the doubt and encouragement to be better people.  Not to be torn down by men who have no right, no clue and no appreciation for the tests and trials faced by them. 

I will tell you this, you ask how could anyone know more about a woman in hijab?  Her community knows what kind of person she was.  Her family, her friends, her coworkers.  A revert doesn't wash away the past, she just washes away the sin of it.  It does her no good to dwell on it, nor does it do her any good to forget.   We learn from our mistakes, if we forget we ever made them, then we didn't learn our lesson.

I never assume anything about a person by their dress or their faith.  The local Imam here in Utah was removed from his position for abusing his wife, they have a new Imam now.  Priests all over are sued for horrible crimes.  Mothers send their sons off to become martyrs or drown them in bathtubs.  Judging someone by their facade is the worst thing you can do.  It might be that girl in the midrift shirt who one day walks into a mosque and asks for answers.  It might be that prostitute who finally finds God and opens a soup kitched for the homeless.  It might be that fine Muslim husband who beats his wife to death or cheats on her and brings her some disease from the prostitute he visited while on a business trip.

Looks aren't everything...


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Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 9:20am
Originally posted by Angela

That man at the mosque treated us much like you treat western women.

Look, I have no particular motivation to ask about anybody's past. I do seriously appreciate decent dress. Everything else, I don't know the details about, and to tell you the truth, I don't want to know.
Originally posted by Angela

Your hateful words and actions will only turn away the girls that need God the most.

Am I preventing them from dressing decently? My "hateful" words are not addressed at any individual in particular. If a woman recognizes herself in these "hateful" words, then I think it is better that she does not admit that. The purpose of these "hateful" words is not to extract confessions from anybody, but to point out that some people have enough of the rampant depravity.
Originally posted by Angela

A revert doesn't wash away the past, she just washes away the sin of it.

Look, if this person publicly participated in orgies in her own neighbourhood, and she comes to regret that, she may have to move to another neighbourhood where people don't know about this.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 9:42am
Angela you really don't have to explain yourself.


Posted By: Altair
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 8:39pm
The only problem I have with sexy girls is its harder for me not to look.
Haha but thats really my own fault. For some non-muslim women, its not
obligatory in their religion to cover certain parts so how can you blame
them if they don't? The reason they wear what they wear can be many. To
look pretty, to feel comfortable, confident. Its only natural.

I don't have to talk about the drawbacks of being too sexy when you go
out as I'm sure the women experience it themselves from googly eyed
men haha.

In the case for muslim women. Its still true that we can't really judge the
person by how they dress. We should judge the person as a person. So if
the woman is a muslim, and she doesn't dress in an appropriate muslim
woman attire then one can tell that she is either not a pious muslim,
takes this obligation, think its ok. (those prostitutes in hijjab are
something i cant understand)

Definitely not an easy task to be a muslim woman/girl. I know a lot of
muslim girls who dont always wear hijjab but some of them are in a sense
"more conservative" in their language than some girls I know that wear
hijjab. So we can't solely judge someone by how they dress..(not
applicable to bar top dancers)


Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 23 June 2007 at 2:07am

Originally posted by crasss

Originally posted by Jamal Morelli

...the 'whorehouse' America, etc. because they are Christian...

If they were really Christian, they wouldn't be called a 'whorehouse'.

Even though the Quran elaborates on certain imperfections in Christian theology, such as inventing human family members of the One God, it is also clear that the Quran has sympathy for the people of the Book, if they really follow the morals taught in the Book.

Let's say that there are a few unpleasant truths about the West, concerning these morals:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/10/death_of_marriage_in_scandinavia/ - Data from European demographers and statistical bureaus show that a majority of children in Sweden and Norway are now born out of wedlock, as are 60 percent of first-born children in Denmark.

The 'whorehouse' problem in formerly Christian countries is not related to Christianity, but to the "modernization" and even outright abolition of Christianity.

The truth is that the West does not only reject Islam, it also rejects traditional Christian morality, in terms of which the West is also considered to be a 'whorehouse'. In fact, there is not one religion in terms of which the West is not considered to be a 'whorehouse'.

Why don't former Christians re-adopt the morality of the bible, if they can't accept Islam? That would create a minimum of compatibility that does not exist today. On the other hand, I seriously doubt that the problem can still be solved, and therefore, I think it is more interesting to let this problem simply evolve to its logical conclusion.

Assalaamu alaikum:

Ever hear of the term, "its like beating a dead horse"?

That is what it seems  are doing with this subject. Seems we cant have one thread where you do not elaborate on "children born out of wedlock"

Br Crasss, you have much knowledge on this subject but lack the wisdom as to when to drop it, or just let it die.

For the sake of modesty, please drop it. As it states in the Holy Quran:

"O you who believe! Let not some men amongst you laugh at others, it may be that the latter are better that the former, nor let some women laugh at others, :it may be that the latter are better than the former. Nor defame or be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by offensive nicknames, ill-seeming is a name connotting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed, and those who do not desist are (Indeed) doing wrong."  Al-hurjurat  (49:11)

Thank you for your time.

Wasalaam



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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 24 June 2007 at 8:24am
Originally posted by aka2x2

Angela/Jamal,

 

But, that would be censorship and I do not agree that censorship is the answer.

Free speech is what makes this forum attractive to Muslims and Non-Muslims alike. Censorship would destroy the very reason this site is as popular as Angela says it is. Ordinary Muslim masses have been censored for too long. We have been silent while dictators ruled over us. We have been silent while fake leaders hijacked our religion. We have been silent while other ideologies challenged us. Now the internet has offered us a way to voice our thoughts and opinions.

Some of us have chosen to use this opportunity to learn and share knowledge. Others use this forum to make new friends. Others regurgitate the same small minded empty rhetoric that the illiterate sheiks of the 18th century spewed while their fortune was being pillaged.

I believe Allah wants good and bad to confront each other. That is why He allowed evil to exist in the first place. I believe it is best that the confrontation is public. Allah shall guide whomsoever He chooses with the good words and misguide whomsoever He chooses with the bad words.

Bismillah and Salaams,

Brother Aka -- is that a new name for the old Ak, or are you a new person?

Anyway, what type of things do you think should be removed if any?

I agree with Angela and also with a point that you made.  When people make hateful posts, as long as the moderators or aware Islamicity members, throughly and clearly state and oppose that bigoted, racist, violent et cetera, point of view or harrangue, then it is useful for people to see that.

But as Sister Angela and I and many others well know, tirades have gone on unbelievably long with no productive discussion other than members who don't have the power to stop the thread or temporarily ban the attackers watch with dismay.

Maybe the solution is to have more moderators and a few less rules.  Since the rules aren't being followed, and some like Aka here and if any of you remember Arabian Knight, really believe that they are too strict, then we could actually have a set of very basic rules that everyone could follow and more people would be available to implement them effectively and consistently.

Thanks for your thought-provoking post, Sister Angela.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 24 June 2007 at 9:57am

 agree with Angela and also with a point that you made.  When people make hateful posts, as long as the moderators or aware Islamicity members, throughly and clearly state and oppose that bigoted, racist, violent et cetera, point of view or harrangue, then it is useful for people to see that.

I did't get this.......



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 24 June 2007 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by Israfil

I did't get this.......

Salaams,

Brother, when people post wildly inappropriate stuff, rather than deleting it (unless it's porn or viciously attacking someone), when the members respond to it and label it for the noxious stuff that it is, people reading these posts will see that although some Muslims, and non-Muslim posters, are violent, agressive, xenophobic, mysogynistic et cetera, that we respond to them and deal with it. 

The problem has been that we, the loyal members don't have the power to stop people from posting such things and in every case that I have seen it takes the moderators weeks and even months to "get" to it.  But at least the benefit that Ak was pointing out was people can see that most people oppose such bad behavior.

Things are busy in the house.  I may be repeating the same stuff as before and not making my point any clearer than the original post.  Sorry.  Kids are noisy, you know! 

Whew.  Yeah.  Can't concentrate.  Gotta run.  Salams.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.



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