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False prophets

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9508
Printed Date: 02 September 2014 at 3:36pm


Topic: False prophets
Posted By: jdtiger2002
Subject: False prophets
Date Posted: 14 June 2007 at 4:47pm

I have read Quran book and learned more about Muslim's religious. I can see that Quran has many miracles. It sounds like God's words. I heard that Quran has no errors and others books have many errors. I have seen that Holy Bible has many errors.

One thing bother me that false prophets will come after Jesus. Is Muhammad true prophet even though Holy Bible says that there will be false prophets after Jesus?

Please read this verses and explain to me if you really believe that Muhammad is true prophet. I want to understand.

I picked two verses from Holy Bible. These verses seem powerful

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

1 John 4:1-6

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 




Replies:
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 14 June 2007 at 7:58pm
Oh-no, here we go again. 

Dear jd,

In the interest of avoiding this thread for the Umteenth time.  Please do a search of the threads and you will finds dozens of threads with arguements for and against Muhammed's (pbuh) Prophethood.  You will also find numerous threads about the validity of the New Testament, the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, the divine sonship of Jesus Christ (or for the Muslims, his Prophethood). 

Please, go over those many, many many threads before asking questions that have already been answered many over.

Just to let you know from a Christian to another Christian (I am assuming that is what you are), the Muslims do not take the New Testament and large sections of the Old Testament to be the word of God.  Where our Bible was written by authors after the fact in accordance with revelation and teachings of the Apostles.  Their Quran was a direct dictation from God, thru the Angel Gabriel to Muhammed (pbuh).  Therefore, they do not take many of the sources of the New Testament as reliable scripture.  Especially those from Paul and those with questionable origins.  (Mostly, just throw out anything by Paul....and anything written after 100AD) 

For more information on that....go to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com - http://www.earlychristianwritings.com and for a copy of the Muslim Quran by three different translators and assorted Hadiths (sayings and deeds of Muhammed ~pbuh~) Goto, http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/ - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/

Thank you and enjoy reading.

PS, if you think you'll prove anything on the False Prophet tangent.....I really suggest reading the many threads.  Virtual Bibilical scholars have failed to convince even just one....its a matter of faith because all other arguements are a never ending loop of documents by people who frankly just don't know. 

The only truth is in the Holy Spirit's testamony to the heart of the believer, be that Islam, Judaism or Christianity. 

God be with you.

Angela


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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 June 2007 at 5:03pm
To jdtiger2002,

The Jesus of the Bible also said in Matthew 7 that "a good tree bears good fruits."  Therefore, a true prophet can be recognized by his "fruits."  Muhammad (pbuh) bore many "good fruits."  Doesn't that mean that he is indeed a true prophet?  Keep in mind that this is not even from an Islamic perspective.




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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: khairullah
Date Posted: 18 June 2007 at 8:40pm

as angela said not a single christian in the world disproved the prophethood of Mohammad (PBUH). there were many false prophet at the time of Mohammad (PBUH) but they failed.

so Jesus might indicated those false prophet not the Mohammad (PBUH).

As Angela said who believes that the old testment or new testment are the words of God.?

these books were written by the apostles many centuries after Jesus (PBUH). do you call that the words of God? well i dont think so.

there are many errors in the Bible does God makes error? i dont think so.

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysiezed in 5 scriptures.

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Hindu Scriptures

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Parsi Scriptures

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Budhist Scriptures.

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Bible

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Torah

there is no reason for me not to be a Muslim.

If you want to read all these prophesies then please read it in my posts.

Your borher in Islam Khairullah.

 

 

 



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1:"The TRUTH stands out clear from error"2:256

2:"When comes the Help of God, and Victory And thou dost see the people enter God's Religion (ISLAM) in crowds".110:01-2.


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 26 June 2007 at 2:48pm

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Bible

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Torah

there is no reason for me not to be a Muslim.

 

No offense, but this is false...Mohammed is not prophesied in the Torah or Bible...

The Bible by the way is a Greek translation which means many books. Jesus is the only Messiah.

Prophecy
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Isaiah 7:14

Fulfillment
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Prophecy
"Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:1-2

Fulfillment
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1

Prophecy
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Malachi 4:5-6

Fulfillment
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:11-15



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 26 June 2007 at 2:50pm

Prophecy
"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 3:1

Fulfillment
And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.

But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Luke 7:24-30

Prophecy
"Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Psalms 45:7

"And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;" Isaiah 11:2

"The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" Isaiah 61:1

Fulfillment
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16-17

Prophecy
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Daniel 9:25

Fulfillment
"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:14-15

"Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" Luke 3:1-3



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 26 June 2007 at 2:51pm

Key Text
"Thus saith God the Lord, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, And spirit to them that walk therein:

I the Lord have called Thee in righteousness, And will hold Thine hand, And will keep Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people, For a light of the Gentiles;

To open the blind eyes, To bring out the prisoners from the prison,
And them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." Isaiah 42:5-7


Fulfillment
Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see:

The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. Matthew 11:4-5

Prophecy
"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger." Psalms 8:2

Fulfillment
"And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,

And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" Matthew 21:15-16

Prophecy
"Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him." Psalms 72:11

Fulfillment
"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. " Matthew 2:7-11



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 26 June 2007 at 2:52pm
Key Text
"Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." Isaiah 53:12

Fulfillment
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 26 June 2007 at 2:54pm

King Davids Psalms 22 - written over 1500 years BC. This is a prophecy of Jesus's crucifiction.

Psalm 22

A Cry of Anguish and a Song of Praise.
For the choir director; upon Aijeleth[a] Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.

    1(A)My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
         (
B)Far from my deliverance are the words of my (C)groaning.
    2O my God, I (
D)cry by day, but You do not answer;
         And by night, but I have no rest.
    3Yet (
E)You are holy,
         O You who are enthroned upon (
F)the praises of Israel.
    4In You our fathers (
G)trusted;
         They trusted and You (
H)delivered them.
    5To You they cried out and were delivered;
         (
I)In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
    6But I am a (
J)worm and not a man,
         A (
K)reproach of men and (L)despised by the people.
    7All who see me (
M)sneer at me;
         They [
b]separate with the lip, they (N)wag the head, saying,
    8"[
c]Commit yourself to the LORD; (O)let Him deliver him;
         Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
    9Yet You are He who (
P)brought me forth from the womb;
         You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
    10Upon You I was cast (
Q)from birth;
         You have been my God from my mother's womb.
    11(
R)Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
         For there is (
S)none to help.
    12Many (
T)bulls have surrounded me;
         Strong bulls of (
U)Bashan have encircled me.
    13They (
V)open wide their mouth at me,
         As a ravening and a roaring (
W)lion.
    14I am (
X)poured out like water,
         And all my (
Y)bones are out of joint;
         My (
Z)heart is like wax;
         It is melted within me.
    15My (
AA)strength is dried up like a potsherd,
         And (
AB)my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
         And You (
AC)lay me in the dust of death.
    16For (
AD)dogs have surrounded me;
         A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
         They (
AE)pierced my hands and my feet.
    17I can count all my bones.
         (
AF)They look, they stare at me;
    18They (
AG)divide my garments among them,
         And for my clothing they cast lots.
    19But You, O LORD, (
AH)be not far off;
         O You my help, (
AI)hasten to my assistance.
    20Deliver my soul from (
AJ)the sword,
         My (
AK)only life from the power of the dog.
    21Save me from the (
AL)lion's mouth;
         From the horns of the (
AM)wild oxen You (AN)answer me.
    22I will (
AO)tell of Your name to my brethren;
         In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
    23(
AP)You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
         All you descendants of Jacob, (
AQ)glorify Him,
         And (
AR)stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
    24For He has (
AS)not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
         Nor has He (
AT)hidden His face from him;
         But (
AU)when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
    25From You comes (
AV)my praise in the great assembly;
         I shall (
AW)pay my vows before those who fear Him.
    26The [
d]afflicted will eat and (AX)be satisfied;
         Those who seek Him will (
AY)praise the LORD
         Let your (
AZ)heart live forever!
    27All the (
BA)ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
         And all the (
BB)families of the nations will worship before You.
    28For the (
BC)kingdom is the LORD'S
         And He (
BD)rules over the nations.
    29All the (
BE)prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
         All those who (
BF)go down to the dust will bow before Him,
         Even he who (
BG)cannot keep his soul alive.
    30(
BH)Posterity will serve Him;
         It will be told of the Lord to (
BI)the coming generation.
    31They will come and (
BJ)will declare His righteousness
         To a people (
BK)who will be born, that He has performed it.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 27 June 2007 at 5:52am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Jesus said beware of those who speak in my name, the first person to speak in jesus's name while having never met him  [ie transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ] or known his teachings was paul yet when you look at the bible and christianity today he is the key figure whose teachings are followed even more so than jesus himself.

Had his words been taken out of the bible you would see a different Christianity than the one you have today.

Unlike paul the Prophet muhammad [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] did not speak in the name of Jesus or with his authority he was a prophet in his own right with his own book of revelations, the community he was sent amongst where not Christians so Jesus warning his followers about false prophets after can not apply to him since islam did not primarily spread to Christian areas until after the prophets time.

look also at religion prior to Christianity, all faiths and all prophets had been monotheistic for thousands of years there message of one god had been the same, then some 300 years after the death of christ out of nowhere the doctrine of the trinity is invented [as it is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the bible] and then forced onto the wrold.

Buddymann read the forum description and stick to the forum guidlines.



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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 27 June 2007 at 10:22am

Buddymann read the forum description and stick to the forum guidlines.

    Rami,

How am I not following the forum guidelines?



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 28 June 2007 at 12:23am
Originally posted by buddyman

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Bible

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Torah

there is no reason for me not to be a Muslim.

 

No offense, but this is false...Mohammed is not prophesied in the Torah or Bible...

The Bible by the way is a Greek translation which means many books. Jesus is the only Messiah.

Prophecy
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Isaiah 7:14

Fulfillment
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Prophecy
"Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:1-2

Fulfillment
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1

Prophecy
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Malachi 4:5-6

Fulfillment
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:11-15

Greetings and welcome. I would say that your contribution is a very cursory approach to asserting church prophecy fulfillment claims. The topic is much deeper and though this kind of post might suffice sunday school pupils, it fails in the arena of discussion with non Christians.

This is from another thread which can be found in the archives of interfaith, it deals with Isaiah 7:14:

Greetings.

I would like to continue with points that I have found which in totality, and by themsleves, represent valid reasons that I have rejected Christianity as a faith, which is far different than rejecting the religion due to personal hatred against the core teachings or many of the wonderful adherents.

I bring attention to a common evidence used by the church to prove their claims about Jesus and the validity of the NT through a prophecy fulfillment.

Claim of Matthew Chapter 1:22-23:

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-which means, "God with us."

This verse is in reference to Isaiah 7:14, and a claim that Isaiah gave a prophecy about the birth of a future Messiah who would be born of a virgin centuries before the event would take place, giving validity to the Church and its idea of replacement theology. This verse is commonly read during the Christmas season, and a source for strength in the Christian cause. There are two important points that rest on this claim:

1) The validity of the NT. Given that we are told this is a word of Gd, which gives a historical and accurate account of Jesus. If a mistake exists, then one must question everything else.

2) The validity of the church. The group who founded the church chose the narratives that best served their theological beliefs. If the evidences for these beliefs can be found to be highly suspect, then their theological beliefs loose their supporting evidence and also become suspect.

Matthew refers to Isaiah 7:14 specifically. For the purpose of context, I will include all relevant verses in that chapter.

  

Below is a paste of appropriate verses needed for the discussion from the JPS TANACH, which I dislike, but it suffices for now. I will make comments that explain the context of the verse, the setting, and then provide points that show this is not a prophecy, or a dual prophecy, and given the setting and context, has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus or the late second temple. 

Isaiah 7:1-16

 7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to war against it; but could not prevail against it.

In 732 BCE, we find the Davidic throne under the threat of war from the two warring kingdoms of the North. The Kingdom of Syria and the Kingdom of Israel are trying to destroy the Kingdom of the South and have laid siege to the city of Jerusalem. King Ahaz is about to loose everything, and it should be mentioned that King Ahaz is not a "man of Gd", which will allow this chapter to make sense.

The threat of the Davidic throne is reinforced below.

7:2 And it was told the house of David, saying: 'Aram is confederate with Ephraim.' And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the forest are moved with the wind.

7:3 Then said the Lord unto Isaiah: 'Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear-jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the fullers' field;

7:4 and say unto him: Keep calm, and be quiet; fear not, neither let thy heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah.

7:5 Because Aram hath counselled evil against thee, Ephraim also, and the son of Remaliah, saying:

7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set up a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeel;

7:7 thus saith the Lord GOD: it shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

7:8 For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people;

7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not have faith, surely ye shall not be established.'

These verses further reinforce the position that the context of this verse is about a war, and now Gd reassures that the aggression of the two northern kingdoms will fail. Keep in mind that so far, nothing is given in the context of this chapter that has anything to do with late second temple or Jesus.

7:10 And the Lord spoke again unto Ahaz, saying:

7:11 'Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.'

7:12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the Lord.'

7:13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also?

7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Ahaz, who is not a great man of Gd, feels intimidated to ask Gd for a sign. Asking for a sign, not a miracle, as the sign will be a symbol of Gd's Words of reassurance about the failure of King Ahaz's enemies. This sign would mark the downfall of the two kingdoms of the north.

If this sign were the virgin birth of Jesus centuries later, then what sign of reassurance would this be to a people that were under siege and ready to be destroyed? In other words, what would King Ahaz, or the inhabitants of Jerusalem care about an event that would happen long after they were dead, how would the virgin birth of Jesus be relevant to a people who are about to be conquered and killed?  

7:15 Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

7:16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.

This goes on to tell us how the sign will be relevant to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. By the time the child, who is a sign, reaches the age of knowing right from wrong, the two kingdoms will be vanquished and defeated. This came to pass. 

So if this is strictly interpreted as the virgin birth of Jesus, then what relevance does eating curds and honey have to do with Jesus? When did he eat them? What two northern kingdoms were destroyed when Jesus reached puberty?

If this is a "dual prophecy", then what in the verse tells you it is such, and how would the birth of Jesus be unique given that now we have a second virgin birth?

(I do not believe the verse tells us of a virgin birth because the verse tells us that there will be a sign and the point of the sign becomes complete by the time the child reaches a certain age and the two northern kingdoms are destroyed, so whether or not the child was born of a virgin would not have mattered in this scenario)

Peace 

This is extracted from another thread that was in reply to an apologetic link to try and defend the unreasonable belief that Isaiah 7:14 was a prophecy about Jesus.

Keep in mind that 99% of the piece goes on and on and on and on with why "almah" must be strictly interpreted as "virgin". The piece literally rambles with various scenarios and speculation as to why the Hebrew word is "virgin", it is an utterly incoherent manner in which the piece tries to argue from an ad nauseam or repetition or ad infinitum approach. I have yet to meet anyone who has been able to use the piece to form an argument. The key thing to remember is that I am willing, for the sake of argument, to give this point away (for the sake of argument, I am willing to concede that “almah” is strictly virgin, and then through reductio ad absurdum, we shall see the problematic conclusion). In the end, the point given is a double edged sword that causes more problems for the claim. Also, keep in mind that the piece (the apologetic piece that is not relevant to this thread) only dedicates about 1% to the contextual dilemma which is the point I bring forth.

The Context (of Isaiah 7:14) demonstrates:

1) That it makes no difference if the female discussed in 7:14 is a virgin or not (the end result and point of the verse is not dependent upon a strict interpretation of the female being virgin)

2) That the verse is irrelevant to the people of the late second temple

3) The verse talks about a sign, not a miracle, relevant to the people of the time period.

The context:

ü       Two armies from two kingdoms are set to destroy Jerusalem and the Davidic throne.

ü       Gd offers, not a miracle, but a sign to the reigning king of Jerusalem, and the representative of the Davidic line.

The Sign:

ü       A child will be born to a woman. Before the child reaches the age of puberty, the two armies will be destroyed.

Conclusion:

ü       According to the Hebrew Scriptures, this did indeed occur.

The sign, according to any common sense reading, according to any serious exegesis, even with the most conservative of uses of the charity principle (seeking the best, strongest interpretation without twisting it to a preconception), is not the birth but the time line given by the child's age that coincides with the destruction of the armies.

The birth of the child has no bearing on the armies of the two northern kingdoms, but the child does.

According to Christians, it is the birth that is the sign, because the birth is to a virgin, and this is a prophecy about Jesus being born centuries later after the people in Jerusalem are all dead and forgotten about and after the siege had ended. For the sake of the argument, let’s say the verse is about a child born to a virgin, and this is the sign. Let’s also assume it is a prophecy.

This implies

1) There were two virgin births, one at that time and one in the late second temple. This would mean the birth of Jesus was not unique. OR;

2) There was one virgin birth, and somehow, the Hebrews were supposed to be able to render almah as young woman who was not a virgin, and then almah as virgin for the double prophecy meaning, which would be relevant to a future generation that had nothing to do with those who were held captive behind the walls of Jerusalem. I would like for Christians to show me the text that allows someone to render almah as non virgin and then as virgin for the prophecy interpretation.

If the child born was all together part of a prophecy that has nothing to do with King Ahaz, then

1) Which two warring kingdoms of the north were destroyed when Jesus reached the age of puberty?

2) If this part of Isaiah 7 is not part of the prophecy, then please, I would like for Christians to provide me with the methodology that allowed them to rip the point of the story (the destruction of the two warring armies) out of the verse as a non prophecy, and only keep the mentioning of a child born to a virgin separate from the point?

If "almah" in chapter 7 must be strictly interpreted as virgin, then the entire sign should be rendered meaningless. Let’s assume that chapter 7 is about a virgin birth. This would mean that the woman being a virgin is a critical point for 7 to work.

I will demonstrate by now assuming this is not a virgin birth in Isaiah 7.

The birth is not by a virgin.

Before the child reaches puberty.

The two warring armies of the north are destroyed.

The child reaches the age of puberty.  

Conclusion: The end result in the story occurs with or without the word "almah" being rendered "virgin".

Matthew's claim of Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy is obviously a mistake. No one with any serious intention of learning can look at this claim and look at the actual verse and declare it a prophecy about a virgin giving birth.

The main themes of the story are entirely irrelevant to late second temple. What would be the significance at the moment before Jesus knows right from wrong? Would this imply that Jesus did not know right from wrong and had to reach puberty before his true divine self would kick in? What two warring kingdoms were destroyed (armies) before Jesus knew right from wrong? What would Ahaz care about Jesus and late second temple period? Why would Isaiah as Ahaz for a sign for people living in 2 CE?

The answers do not exist, and giving the point away that almah is virgin causes more problems, and unanswered questions.

 

 

This is also a piece I have posted some time ago in the interfaith section, it was discussed at some lenghts.

Matthew 2

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him."

14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt,

15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

This is in reference to Herod trying to kill Gd on earth (everyone knows Jesus is Gd according to Christians, including Herod, or I suppose he did not get the memo). His mother takes him to Egypt, and the gospel writer informs us that this was to fulfill a prophecy as told to the Prophet, which is in reference to the Prophet Hosea. If one looks, one will find this reference in chapter 11 verse 1. 

Hosea 11

1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,
       and out of Egypt I called my son.

 2 But the more I called Israel, 
   the further they went from me. 
   They sacrificed to the Baals 
   and they burned incense to images.

1) In the actual Hebrew, there is nothing seperating verse 2 from the last part of one. In other words, there is nothing inherent in the grammer or in the meaning of the verse that allows one to seperate the two verses.

2) These two verses have a historical context which is about Israel and its love affair with the cult of Ba'al. If verse one is the opening of a prophecy about Jesus, then one must continue where it states that Jesus and his parents became involved with the cult of Ba'al (astaghfuralla).

3) If this is a dual prophecy, then how does one determine this? Understand, the idea of a dual prophecy is a Christian technique of trying to find Christological relevance in the OT, thereby making the OT a relevant book. If this is a dual prophecy, then what allows one to stop at verse one for the second prophecy meaning about Jesus where the second verse was included with the first verse for the first prophecy (the first prophecy, or actual historical context includes both verses but not for a second, dual meaning)?

These are points that may seem subtle at the surface, but they are far from insignificant. If the foundation for a prophecy claim is based upon erroneous, and questionable methods, and if these prophecy claims are the foundation for the evidences that the church uses to define their faith, then one must put into question the entire church thesis. These basic points remain unexplained by the church with any reasonable explanation or argument that even remotely makes sense. Insha'Allah if time avails, I hope to contribute my list of points which lead me to reject the Christian faith, none of which cut down its core teachings and morals, or many of its outstanding adherents.

 

As far as following the guidlines. A pattern of "spamming", where copy and pasted material make up the greater portion of a person's contributions and discussions, then it becomes a problem.

Here is the relevant guideline rule:

9. Posting several messages at random and not responding to the generated questions or dialogues following the original posts may also be considered as spamming.

That seems to be the glaring violation I can see.

Peace



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 28 June 2007 at 11:04am

Andalus,

I am actually a Sabbath keeper...no Sunday school for me. Maybe you should study the Book of Daniel...especially the 70 weeks.

I apologize for the spamming...I really didn't know that copying and pasting scripture would be considered spamming.

Also, there are more prophecies that were fillfilled by Jesus...not just Isaiah 7:14.....

You mention the Tanach, are you Jewish?

 



Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 28 June 2007 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by jdtiger2002

Please read this verses and explain to me if you really believe that Muhammad is true prophet. I want to understand.

The followers of Jesus (pbuh), under the leadership of false prophets, gradually started worshipping Jesus instead of the One God. These verses predict that the followers of Jesus would go astray and abandon the Oneness of God.

Muhammed (pbuh) came back with the message that the One God wants us to worship only Him and not to worship any man or anything else and restored the true religion of Abraham (pbuh).

Muhammed (pbuh) is a true prophet because he restored the truth brought by Abraham (pbuh) who is a true prophet.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 28 June 2007 at 7:28pm

Originally posted by buddyman

I really didn't know that copying and pasting scripture would be considered spamming.

It's not really.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 01 July 2007 at 4:26am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

it is when done in the ask questions section rather than the interfaith section which is why i made that reference in my earlier post.

forum_topics.asp?FID=7" target="_self - Discussions - Islam for non-Muslims
Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning is allowed but not debate.




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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Jasonchristian
Date Posted: 04 July 2007 at 8:10am
Originally posted by jdtiger2002

I have read Quran book and learned more about Muslim's religious. I can see that Quran has many miracles. It sounds like God's words. I heard that Quran has no errors and others books have many errors. I have seen that Holy Bible has many errors.

One thing bother me that false prophets will come after Jesus. Is Muhammad true prophet even though Holy Bible says that there will be false prophets after Jesus?

Please read this verses and explain to me if you really believe that Muhammad is true prophet. I want to understand.

I picked two verses from Holy Bible. These verses seem powerful

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

1 John 4:1-6

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

 

Yes, Mohammed fits the false prophet profile to a tee.  He denied the Lord Jesus Christ, and his followers today prove that they are not Children of God by their hatred and wicked deeds.  The whole world sees them as evil.



Posted By: Sawtul Khilafah
Date Posted: 04 July 2007 at 8:22am

Originally posted by Jasonchristian

Yes, Mohammed fits the false prophet profile to a tee.  He denied the Lord Jesus Christ, and his followers today prove that they are not Children of God by their hatred and wicked deeds.  The whole world sees them as evil.

 

"The whole world was astonished and followed the beast." (Revelation 13 of the BIBLE)

So if the whole world is against Islam, that means Islam is against the Beast and according to the Bible (revelation chapter 13) the Beast is allied to the False Prophet, so this means that Muslims are the enemies of the Beast and the false prophet!!!



Posted By: Jasonchristian
Date Posted: 04 July 2007 at 8:31am
Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

Originally posted by Jasonchristian

Yes, Mohammed fits the false prophet profile to a tee.  He denied the Lord Jesus Christ, and his followers today prove that they are not Children of God by their hatred and wicked deeds.  The whole world sees them as evil.

 

"The whole world was astonished and followed the beast." (Revelation 13 of the BIBLE)

So if the whole world is against Islam, that means Islam is against the Beast and according to the Bible (revelation chapter 13) the Beast is allied to the False Prophet, so this means that Muslims are the enemies of the Beast and the false prophet!!!

 

 

Regardless of your dumb interpretation of the words in Revelation which deal with the anti-Christ and not the world's preception of the evil of Muslims, you should be aware of Jesus' words in Matt. 24:

 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mohammed came and deceived many.  His followers hate Christians and cut off their heads, in fulfillment of what will happen to Christian  martyrs -  oh you who thinks he knows the Book of Revelation. Read John 3 and repent and come to Christ.

 



Posted By: Sawtul Khilafah
Date Posted: 04 July 2007 at 4:18pm

What does that have to do with Islam and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)???

In fact, every time the Bible refers to righteous people, they fit in with the description of Muslims:

 

After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hand

[Revelation chapter 7:9]



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 July 2007 at 6:15pm

 

 Actually, These words presented by Jason are not reaaly the words of Jesus. Even if they are, they are telling some immediate story. Not a story 600 years after Jesus. See:

 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 Muhammad did not come in the name of christ. So that point about our dear prophet is based on wrong reports. Muhammad came and did everything in the name of Allah, not in th name of Jesus. Heupheld the glory or respect of Jesus though. If Muhammad had not supported Jesus, nobody would have known Jesus by now.

 Jesus advised his followers to be careful of the cheaters. That was an immediate advice for the followers. But they got misled. Paul was the first anti-christ. He being an enemy of Jesus, cooked a story about some vision and hoodwinked the lot of followers. Those followers were very weak in their faith because their leader (Jesus) had left them in a hurry while they were not yet fully trained. So paul was able to teach everything the opposite of what Jesus had been teaching, i.e. 1. Jesus is son of God. 2.  Jesus is god in flesh. 3. God has three parts (Trinity). 4. Jesus died on the cross. 5. Jesus gave his blood for the sinners 6. That every born child is a sinner 7. There is no need of any law. 8. No need of sabath. 9. No need of circumcision. 10. Eat pork as much as you can.

 Please all friends see that Jesus did not teach even one of the above mentioned things. Paul, to please the greeks, allowed the eating of the swines flesh. Jason cannot blame Muhammad as anti-christ. His anti-christ has been well known for ages. Why does not he look to that paul to decietfully became a disciple, even a messenger.

 Muhammad was never a messenger of Jesus. But paul and his kind were messengers of Jesus. So please spare Muhammad. Also note that Jesus said many false prophets will come. Muhammad is just one person. Who are the rest of your false prophets. Itis clear that they are your own saints.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: paarsurrey
Date Posted: 07 July 2007 at 12:53am
Hi
To know a true Prophet from a false Prophet one should concentrate on ascertaining the criteria of true/false Prophet.
It is mentioned in NTBible that Jesus promised to show Sign of Jonah to the Jews (I think Catholics take it metaphorically, and they also include themselves in the wide term "Jews").This is supposed to be the greatest sign Jesus showed. Say for example one of my Catholic friends Kellie from Australia intends to declare herself a ProphetMessenger in supposition. She has read the account of Jonah a true Prophet in OTBible, Jesus also believed in him as such. Suppose, if Kellie had been in Nineveh when Jonah presented himself before his people that Jonah was a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. If Kellie would have accepted him; on what criteria? If kellie would have not accepted him, on what criteria?"
This would facilitate my Catholic friends to accept Kellie a fellow Catholic a candidate of ProphetMessenger in supposition, or reject her, unprejudiced.
Please answer with references from OTBible as to the Claim and Reason. We would all discuss that the Criteria is a fair one for all times.
The issue is very important, no dout about it
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

 

 




Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 07 July 2007 at 7:25am
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 Actually, These words presented by Jason are not reaaly the words of Jesus. Even if they are, they are telling some immediate story. Not a story 600 years after Jesus. See:

 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 Muhammad did not come in the name of christ. So that point about our dear prophet is based on wrong reports. Muhammad came and did everything in the name of Allah, not in th name of Jesus. Heupheld the glory or respect of Jesus though. If Muhammad had not supported Jesus, nobody would have known Jesus by now.

 Jesus advised his followers to be careful of the cheaters. That was an immediate advice for the followers. But they got misled. Paul was the first anti-christ. He being an enemy of Jesus, cooked a story about some vision and hoodwinked the lot of followers. Those followers were very weak in their faith because their leader (Jesus) had left them in a hurry while they were not yet fully trained. So paul was able to teach everything the opposite of what Jesus had been teaching, i.e. 1. Jesus is son of God. 2.  Jesus is god in flesh. 3. God has three parts (Trinity). 4. Jesus died on the cross. 5. Jesus gave his blood for the sinners 6. That every born child is a sinner 7. There is no need of any law. 8. No need of sabath. 9. No need of circumcision. 10. Eat pork as much as you can.

 Please all friends see that Jesus did not teach even one of the above mentioned things. Paul, to please the greeks, allowed the eating of the swines flesh. Jason cannot blame Muhammad as anti-christ. His anti-christ has been well known for ages. Why does not he look to that paul to decietfully became a disciple, even a messenger.

 Muhammad was never a messenger of Jesus. But paul and his kind were messengers of Jesus. So please spare Muhammad. Also note that Jesus said many false prophets will come. Muhammad is just one person. Who are the rest of your false prophets. It is clear that they are your own saints.

 Good Points. Now the polemics will know and realise why Muhammad was sent to the neighbouring Arabs.

Thanks

BMZ



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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 July 2007 at 8:01am
Does anyone think that explaining (and refuting) this guy's views is seriously going to change how he thinks about Islam? Seriously, let it go.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 July 2007 at 9:13pm

 

 It may not help the guy at all. But the material can be useful for our own minds. BMZ is back. Al Hamdu Lillah.

 I was greatly wondering at the divine plan of Allah that Hazrat Abrhama a.s. settled his first borne Ishmael a.s. in a mountain area very far away from Kanaan. The second son Issac a.s was to live in Kanaan. Kanaan was populated to some extent and so was Lebanon, the land of milk and honey.

 The above mentioned lands were later occupied by the Romans and others i.e. by the Kings etc.  But the area of Makkah was never occupied by any king seriously. They had no interest in that area. That is where our holy prophet s.a.w.s. was born in the in the 50 generation after Abraham a.s.

 Holy prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. had to fight the native pagans only in the beginning. There was no king to interfere. That was something great and useful for the establishment of the last book of law for the entire world. Had their been a king in the area, only God knows what would have happened. That is because, we see what Moses a.s. and Jesus a.s. had to go through in their own areas in their own times.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: ahmad179
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 3:21am

salaam i am sorry can i tell something little i couldnt read all of it but i wanted to share.We muslims believe that Holy Bible is falsified as you know.We know Holy Bible as "incil" in our language(i am a turkish muslim).We pronounce it like "njil", i hope, think.We know that, i had learned it from one of my teachers, it means Harbinger (they look alike) and we know that Jesus alaihissalaam says that "...i harbinger that a prophet named Ahmad will come after me..."we learned like this.Our prophets full name is "Ahmad Mahmod Mohammad Mostafa".unfortunately there is no an unfalsified Bible.

sorry you go on please



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 6:59am

 

 Jesus (Isa a.s.) had warned his friends about the false prophets (See Mathews ch. 24 verses 3,4,5) who might mislead them. Now the christians think that Muhammad was one of those false prophets. That is not so.

 The reason is that Jesus had said that many will come in my name to mislead you my friends. Beware. Take care.

 Muhammad never came and preached anything in the name of Jesus. Also our prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. came 600 years after Jesus. That is a very long time. The false prophets told by Jesus would not wait so long to appear. They appeared on the scene soon after the disappearance of Isa a.s. The most important of them using the name of Jesus was paul. He tried to be a disciple of Jesus and he contributed to most of the bible new testament and it is his beliefs that christians follow today, not the teachings of Jesus.

Muhammad came in the name of Allah and preached the message of Allah. He never even one day preached any message of Jesus. Sorry if all this goes against the beliefs of the christian friends. My purpose is only to tell the beliefs of the Muslims.It is for information only. Not to hurt any one.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

What does that have to do with Islam and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)???

In fact, every time the Bible refers to righteous people, they fit in with the description of Muslims:

 

After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hand

[Revelation chapter 7:9]

hmmmmm....why would muslims be standing before the Lamb? - they don't even acknowledge him.  And I don't see any palms in the hands of the muslims in your pictures....



Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 11:14am

"Muhammad came in the name of Allah and preached the message of Allah. He never even one day preached any message of Jesus. Sorry if all this goes against the beliefs of the christian friends."

Actually, minuteman, we are already fully aware of this.  We already know that the message of the Lord Jesus did not come from Allah....



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 4:55pm

The question is what are the characteristics of God...hmmm

New Testament in which Jesus is revealed as the Eternal Creator and not a created being (John 1:1–4). As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of Jehovah are also ascribed to Jesus. Note these powerful examples:

  • He is self-existent (John 1:1–4; 14:6); only God is self-existent (Psalm 90:2).
  • Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
  • He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).
  • He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).
  • He created all things (John 1:3). “In the beginning God created the heaven and the
    earth” (Genesis 1:1). “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16 NKJV).
  • The Father even calls Jesus God. “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom” (Hebrews 1:8).
  • Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20, 21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).
  • Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ‘All hail.’ And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:26–29).
  • Even the angels worship Jesus. “And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Hebrews 1:6).
  • The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’” (John 1:48 NKJV).
  • Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20 NKJV). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10 NKJV).
  • He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again” (John 10:18). “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 4:59pm

Genesis 1:26 (New American Standard Bible)

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=49 - New American Standard Bible (NASB) 

 26Then God said, "Let (A)Us make (B)man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (C)rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

 

Why do you suppose its says "God said "Let US make man in OUR image". That's plural. Do you not believe that God is almighty, All Knowing, and can do anything?

The names of God reveal attributes of His nature. God has a long-established habit of using various names to describe a person’s character. Jacob earned his name that means “swindler” when he practiced deception to steal his father’s blessing away from his brother Esau (Genesis 27:35, 36). At his conversion, Jacob wrestled with the angel and insisted on the blessing of God. Then his name was changed to “Israel,” which means “a prince with God” (Genesis 32:26–28).
     Likewise, the names for God found in Genesis and elsewhere tell us volumes about our Creator. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). The Hebrew word here for God is Elohim. It is a plural noun that is used more than 2,700 times in the Old Testament. This means that inspired authors preferred to use Elohim about 10 times more than the singular form “El” when they described God. Even in the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him” (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days—who is, obviously, God the Father.
     The New Testament writings are sprinkled with this concept of one God with three united, fully divine persons. The apostle Paul wrote that there were three divine persons: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4–6).
     Paul frequently referred to the three separate persons of the Godhead. “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14). “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Hebrews 9:14).
     Revelation opens by introducing the three persons of the Godhead. “From the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever” (Revelation 1:4–6 NKJV).
     In addition, we clearly see three distinct persons at the baptism of Jesus. “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16,17).
     If Jesus is the only person in the Godhead, where did the voice come from that declared, “This is my beloved Son”? Did He trisect Himself into a voice from heaven, the dove wafting down through the sky, and His body on the bank of the river? No. This was not simply a clever act of holy smoke and mirrors, but rather a regal reunion revealing the truth of the trinity. And on top of this, it is through the shared authority of these three persons that we are commissioned to baptize. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 5:01pm

As you read above, God has always given us a way of knowing who he is.

Jesus also said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" - John

Jesus also said "Before Abraham, I AM". The translation in " I AM" is Yahweh...



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 11 July 2007 at 6:59pm

 

 

Jesus also said "Before Abraham, I AM". The translation in " I AM" is Yahweh...

 Should it not be, "Before Araham, I was"? Also the translation of I AM is Yahweh. Do you mean to say that the translation of the actual words Yahweh is I AM??? Or is it the other way around??



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 12 July 2007 at 12:22pm

 Should it not be, "Before Araham, I was"? Also the translation of I AM is Yahweh. Do you mean to say that the translation of the actual words Yahweh is I AM??? Or is it the other way around??

 

  That is not what the scriptures say. Jesus said "Before Abraham, IAM".

When Moses was in the wilderness who did the burning bush say he was? He said " I AM THAT IAM". God has always been. He is eternal.



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 12:27pm

That is a good question, "why do we suppose". And what reply would be the most reasonable?

Your approach uses the fallacy of circular reasoning. Simply put, this is the conclusion of an argument that is assumed in the premise. The verses in question is an "implicit" verse, not an "explicit" verse (as I have told you before, the proof verses of the church concerning their primary pillars of beliefs are based upon implicit verses), so one may read interpretations into it, the question is, is the interpretation valid, reasonable, and sound.

Nothing in the verse implies the trinty, and one must already have the belief to try and claim this is OT proof for a triune god.

So is God referring to His angelic "court", or do we have a triune God speaking out in one voice, Jesus and Father and Ghost harmonizing together in one voice that they are creating everything at the same time?

The only proof that it is a triune God is comes from the assumption buried in the premise. We know God has angels, and we know that God speaking in a plural does not "necessarily" mean that it is a triune being. There simply is not enough in the verse to allow for your interpretation.

 

 

The names of God reveal attributes of His nature. God has a long-established habit of using various names to describe a person’s character. Jacob earned his name that means “swindler” when he practiced deception to steal his father’s blessing away from his brother Esau (Genesis 27:35, 36). At his conversion, Jacob wrestled with the angel and insisted on the blessing of God. Then his name was changed to “Israel,” which means “a prince with God” (Genesis 32:26–28).
     Likewise, the names for God found in Genesis and elsewhere tell us volumes about our Creator. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). The Hebrew word here for God is Elohim. It is a plural noun that is used more than 2,700 times in the Old Testament. This means that inspired authors preferred to use Elohim about 10 times more than the singular form “El” when they described God.

This is a fallacy called a non-sequitur, meaning "does not follow". In other words, If God refers to Himself in a plural form of a noun 5 times more than a singular noun, then it does not follow from this relationship that God is a plural godhead. There simply is not enough information to allow for such a conclusion. You cannot conjecture about the likes and dislikes of God concerning plural nouns based solely upon the amount of time He says one thing or another.

Furthermore, it is a non-sequitur because if it is a plurality, then it is not necessarily a "triune" plurality. Plurality does not imply "trinity".

I must also point out that in Gen1:1, .."God Created.." the verb created is a singular noun. Also, if Elohim necessarily implies a plurality, then Moses must be confused, .....""See, I have made thee a god (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." (KJV)" Exodus 7:1.

So maybe God is a quadrinity!?

Even in the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him” (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days—who is, obviously, God the Father.

 

Your piece failed to give the surrounding verses for “context”. Once more we are being lead by “circular reasoning” and an “implicit verse”. What is a reasonable interpretation? That this is Jesus, one of three of a triune godhead, or, given that the entire vision in the surrounding verses has described 4 beasts, and now the next figure is not a beast, but “a son of man”, literally a “human” “non-beast”. A son of man is in contrast to the definite article your piece has placed before son (your piece uses “the” son of man, not “a” son of man).

I will stop here as I have given sufficient reason why I reject your article’s argument.

Regards

 



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 9:38am

Andalus,

I believe you've been the one who has been taught out of context. Through out the Bible God tells us who he is. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You don't have to agree, and that is your choice. I must also point out that you have not read every book of the Bible. All you have been taught is to dispute the Godhead/Trinity, so that's were all your focus has been. You need to read and STUDY the entire Bible.

Still waiting on your notes about Daniel.



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 9:46am
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 

Jesus also said "Before Abraham, I AM". The translation in " I AM" is Yahweh...

 Should it not be, "Before Araham, I was"? Also the translation of I AM is Yahweh. Do you mean to say that the translation of the actual words Yahweh is I AM??? Or is it the other way around??

 

Jesus did not say before Abraham I was. He said "Before Abraham I AM". I say I am many things, but I would not say I was before my grandmother, would I?

Jesus Speaking in the Temple

(John 8:57-59 NKJV) "Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" {58} Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." {59} Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

The Jews understood the implications of Jesus' statements as being a claim of deity and therefore on ocassion took up stones against him for blasphemy. If they merely misunderstood Jesus' claim, would not Jesus have corrected them? The failure of Jesus to correct them is either an affirmation that their understanding was correct, or a blatant misleading of the people. Dare any man lay this charge at the feet of God?

Consider the context of Matthew 14:33, where after walking on the water, which no man could do without the power of God, (Mat 14:33 KJV) "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." This "obeisance" came at the time of yet another proof that Jesus was "the Son of God". How did the Jews understand this phrase "the Son of God"? Consider:

(Mat 26:63-65 NKJV) "...Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" {64} Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. ..." {65} Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy!

The Jews understood this admission to be a statement of deity, as also when Jesus said that he and his Father were "one":

(John 10:30-33 NKJV) ""I and My Father are one." {31} Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. ... {33} The Jews answered Him, saying, "... for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.""

In light of the Jews' understanding of the meaning of the usage of "the Son of God", the context demands that "proskuneo" have the meaning beyond that of reverence that a man might show to another man, and therefore the appropriate meaning when applied to Jesus is "worship".



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:13pm

 

 We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too  many metaphors. Jesus is not the real son of God. he is only spiritual son of God. Jesus is the begotten son of God. that is also not real. begotten in the sense that he was spiritually begotten.

We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. If they tell in the beginning that Jesus was the spiritual son of god then we may not have too much difference and we may not deny or argue in that matter.

Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god. But when forcd and questioned and cornered seriously, they will say,Ph, he is not the real biological son of God... What a joke. If they say that in the beginning then there would notbe so much argument.

It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be??

Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself??? I am sure that the christians cannot explain any of tehse things but let them do it if they can. We are ready to listen to their lecture.

The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets. I see that it is only Muhammad who is tellingus that Jesus was a true prophet of God and so was John the baptist. No one else believes thatJesus was a prophet at all. If any nation other than Muslims believes that Jesus was a prophet of God then I would like to know about those people.

The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even. Leave alone that any one will admit that he was a prophet of god.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too  many metaphors. Jesus is not the real son of God. he is only spiritual son of God. Jesus is the begotten son of God. that is also not real. begotten in the sense that he was spiritually begotten.

 

If it was spiritual we would have been told it was.

We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. If they tell in the beginning that Jesus was the spiritual son of god then we may not have too much difference and we may not deny or argue in that matter.

They are not really in the sense of the word??? Sounds like an excuse to me.

Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god. But when forcd and questioned and cornered seriously, they will say,Ph, he is not the real biological son of God... What a joke. If they say that in the beginning then there would notbe so much argument.

Again you make no sense. You haven't given me a question I haven't answered.

It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be??

it is you who is bombarded. The Bible says if you deny Jesus you will not be saved. You see, all you guys do is provide quotes with out actually reading the Bible in its entirety.

Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself??? I am sure that the christians cannot explain any of tehse things but let them do it if they can. We are ready to listen to their lecture.

How sad that you don't believe God is almighty.he can do everything and anything.

The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets. I see that it is only Muhammad who is tellingus that Jesus was a true prophet of God and so was John the baptist. No one else believes thatJesus was a prophet at all. If any nation other than Muslims believes that Jesus was a prophet of God then I would like to know about those people.

The word prophet means messenger. There is a Messiah, which Jesus prooved tohave been. If you read the Bible you would know.

The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even. Leave alone that any one will admit that he was a prophet of god.

Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that.



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:16pm
"If they merely misunderstood Jesus' claim, would not Jesus have corrected them? The failure of Jesus to correct them is either an affirmation that their understanding was correct, or a blatant misleading of the people. Dare any man lay this charge at the feet of God?"

Maybe he didn't get a chance to explain because they were stoning him?  How could he explain when a barrage of stones was coming his way?

"Consider the context of Matthew 14:33, where after walking on the water, which no man could do without the power of God, (Mat 14:33 KJV) "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." This "obeisance" came at the time of yet another proof that Jesus was "the Son of God"."

Consider also that Matthew 14 also claims that Jesus prayed alone (verse 23).  This act of praying contradicts his alleged divinity, does it not?  Also, consider that upon comparing the account in Matthew 14 with the account in Mark 6, we see that Mark does not mention the disciples worshipping Jesus or testifying that he was the "Son of God."  Mark 6 says the following:

"45Immediately Jesus made his disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to Bethsaida, while he dismissed the crowd. 46After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. 47When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. 48He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 49but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, 50because they all saw him and were terrified.  Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 51Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened."

Compare that to the account in Matthew and we see an obvious discrepancy.  Consider also that the Gospel of Mark was written before the Gospel of Matthew.  Could the account in Matthew 14 simply have been the author's interpolation and not necessarily based on fact? 

"(Mat 26:63-65 NKJV) "...Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" {64} Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. ..." {65} Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy!"

Compare this account to John 18 and we see a completely different scenario.  In the Gospel of John, Jesus is asked by the high priest about his teachings and about his disciples, and does not directly ask him whether he is "the Christ, the Son of God."  Jesus' answer also makes no mention that he is the Son of God.  Here is how the conversation went, according to the author of the Gospel of John:

"
9Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. 20"I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. 21Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said." 22When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. 23"If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" 24Then Annas sent him, still bound, to Caiaphas the high priest.[b]"

There is no consensus in the Gospels about Jesus' character.  One says he was worshiped after he walked on water, whereas the other does not.  Would it not have been worthwhile to mention in all the Gospels that Jesus was worshiped?  Would that not have solidified the claim and bring consensus to the matter at hand? 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:27pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

"If they merely misunderstood Jesus' claim, would not Jesus have corrected them? The failure of Jesus to correct them is either an affirmation that their understanding was correct, or a blatant misleading of the people. Dare any man lay this charge at the feet of God?"

Maybe he didn't get a chance to explain because they were stoning him?  How could he explain when a barrage of stones was coming his way?

Is that the only arguement you have?

"Consider the context of Matthew 14:33, where after walking on the water, which no man could do without the power of God, (Mat 14:33 KJV) "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." This "obeisance" came at the time of yet another proof that Jesus was "the Son of God"."

Consider also that Matthew 14 also claims that Jesus prayed alone (verse 23).  This act of praying contradicts his alleged divinity, does it not?  Also, consider that upon comparing the account in Matthew 14 with the account in Mark 6, we see that Mark does not mention the disciples worshipping Jesus or testifying that he was the "Son of God."  Mark 6 says the following:

"45Immediately Jesus made his disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to Bethsaida, while he dismissed the crowd. 46After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. 47When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. 48He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 49but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, 50because they all saw him and were terrified.  Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 51Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened."

Compare that to the account in Matthew and we see an obvious discrepancy.  Consider also that the Gospel of Mark was written before the Gospel of Matthew.  Could the account in Matthew 14 simply have been the author's interpolation and not necessarily based on fact? 

"(Mat 26:63-65 NKJV) "...Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" {64} Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. ..." {65} Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy!"

Compare this account to John 18 and we see a completely different scenario.  In the Gospel of John, Jesus is asked by the high priest about his teachings and about his disciples, and does not directly ask him whether he is "the Christ, the Son of God."  Jesus' answer also makes no mention that he is the Son of God.  Here is how the conversation went, according to the author of the Gospel of John:

"
9Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. 20"I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. 21Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said." 22When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. 23"If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" 24Then Annas sent him, still bound, to Caiaphas the high priest.[b]"

There is no consensus in the Gospels about Jesus' character.  One says he was worshiped after he walked on water, whereas the other does not.  Would it not have been worthwhile to mention in all the Gospels that Jesus was worshiped?  Would that not have solidified the claim and bring consensus to the matter at hand? 

 

It really doesn;t matter if one says it and one doesn't. The fact of the matter is the ONE does say it.  Mone book may say a specific account of one thing that happened and one may leave something out but ALL OF THE BOOKS have proclaimed Jesus's divinity.There is too much evidence that Jesus and the Father are One. Have you actually read the Bible from cover to cover?



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 4:44pm
Hello Buddyman.

"Is that the only arguement you have?"

It makes sense.  You asked why Jesus did not correct the Jews.  Doesn't it make sense that because they were stoning him, he did not get the chance? 

"It really doesn;t matter if one says it and one doesn't. The fact of the matter is the ONE does say it.  Mone book may say a specific account of one thing that happened and one may leave something out but ALL OF THE BOOKS have proclaimed Jesus's divinity.There is too much evidence that Jesus and the Father are One. Have you actually read the Bible from cover to cover?"

I respect your opinion, but vociferously disagree.  Of course it matters that they all say the samething.  Why did both Matthew and Mark mention the other details of the account (Jesus dismissing the people, Jesus praying alone, Jesus walking on water, the disciples thinking they were seeing a ghost, even that the wind died down) but somehow Mark leaves out what would be the most important and revolutionary detail of the account?  Don't you think that it was more important for Mark to mention that the disciples "worshiped" Jesus and testified that he was the "son of God" than to mention that the disciples thought that he was a "ghost"?  Also, why did Matthew and Mark both mention that Jesus PRAYED?  To whom was he praying to and why?


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by buddyman

Andalus,

I believe you've been the one who has been taught out of context. Through out the Bible God tells us who he is. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You don't have to agree, and that is your choice.

So this means you have no reply to anything I have written? All of the copying and pasting you have done and now you sit in silence. That is a shame. It is a shame that faced with valid objections to your beliefs, you simply deflect and blame me for "not having read the bible", and "not being tuaght properly". 

I must also point out that you have not read every book of the Bible.

Irrelevant. (though I know your OT very well and your NT fairly well).

I have read your bible enough to know that your beliefs I replied to are weak and are problematic.

 

 All you have been taught is to dispute the Godhead/Trinity, so that's were all your focus has been. You need to read and STUDY the entire Bible.

All you have been taught is to believe the trinity without question, so much so that you will take implicit verses in the bible and twist them until you can superimose your theological opinions on them.

Furthermore, you have no idea what I have been taught or what my background is. If my case is so weak, then show where my fault is by replying with relevant material directly to my points of objections.

 

Still waiting on your notes about Daniel.

Actually I did reply, the ball is in your court.  



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:54pm
"Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that."

Complete and utter nonsense.  I thought you were better than that buddyman.  Slandering the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?  What do you know about the blessed Muhammad (pbuh)?  He was no murderer.  He was the greatest man to have ever lived, and the most beloved to Allah (swt).  Do not slander him.  He was a brother to Jesus and they both worshiped Allah (swt) alone. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: paarsurrey
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 10:42pm

Hi

I have gone through the posts and would like to say that the original poster is a Christian and uless we define the Prophets and have criteria for a truthful prophet and criteria of a false prophet we cannot discern false prophet from a true prophet.

To start with I would quote three passages from OTBible:

"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV).

Another test for determining false prophets in the Torah is found in Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The text is as follows:

"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

"You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NIV).

The penalty for false prophecy, according to the biblical context, is capital punishment (per Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him.

This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet .

Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed.

Thanks



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 12:16am
Originally posted by buddyman

Originally posted by minuteman

 

 We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too  many metaphors. Jesus is not the real son of God. he is only spiritual son of God. Jesus is the begotten son of God. that is also not real. begotten in the sense that he was spiritually begotten.

 

If it was spiritual we would have been told it was.

We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. If they tell in the beginning that Jesus was the spiritual son of god then we may not have too much difference and we may not deny or argue in that matter.

They are not really in the sense of the word??? Sounds like an excuse to me.

Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god. But when forcd and questioned and cornered seriously, they will say,Ph, he is not the real biological son of God... What a joke. If they say that in the beginning then there would notbe so much argument.

Again you make no sense. You haven't given me a question I haven't answered.

It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be??

it is you who is bombarded. The Bible says if you deny Jesus you will not be saved. You see, all you guys do is provide quotes with out actually reading the Bible in its entirety.

Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself??? I am sure that the christians cannot explain any of tehse things but let them do it if they can. We are ready to listen to their lecture.

How sad that you don't believe God is almighty.he can do everything and anything.

The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets. I see that it is only Muhammad who is tellingus that Jesus was a true prophet of God and so was John the baptist. No one else believes thatJesus was a prophet at all. If any nation other than Muslims believes that Jesus was a prophet of God then I would like to know about those people.

The word prophet means messenger. There is a Messiah, which Jesus prooved tohave been. If you read the Bible you would know.

The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even. Leave alone that any one will admit that he was a prophet of god.

Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that.

Please do not insult the Prophet (saw). This is against forum guid lines. You are allowed to discuss topics about Prophet Muhammad (saw), just as long as it is a discussion and you bring evidence to support your claims.

I am curious! According to you,Moses prayed to Jesus because God is a triune godhead since the beginning. If this is so, then Jesus would actually be a murderer according to your own bible. The babies and children and women at Jericho present a theological problem to the missionary diatribe of Jesus loving all babies and loving only peace. Prophet Muhammad (saw) never committed a murder, and if you claim he is a murderer, then bring your proof or do not slander him (saw). Neither did Prophet Jesus (saw) ever order the slaughter of babies and women as your theology and holy book imply.

regards 



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 5:11am

 

 We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too  many metaphors.

If it was spiritual we would have been told it was.

Dear me , I have been to other christian boards and they (protestants) aftera long long discussion admitted that Jesus was not a real son of God. he was not a biological son of God. They rathe raccused us about thinking that Jesus was the real son of God. You are talking in a different language.

We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. .

They are not really in the sense of the word??? Sounds like an excuse to me.

That is a problem. There are too many metaphors. I and Father are one. That is a simple sentence and we understand that Jesus is from God. That God is with him. That is all. Nothing more. There is no need to put Jesus into the Father.

Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god.

Again you make no sense. You haven't given me a question I haven't answered.

You are not the only one. It is true that I have not discussed this with you at length. But it has been done for a long time on another christian board and I am giving you their remarks that we got in the end aftera long dual and gruel.

It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be??

it is you who is bombarded. The Bible says if you deny Jesus you will not be saved. You see, all you guys do is provide quotes with out actually reading the Bible in its entirety.

Jesus never taught Trinity. He never uttered the word Trinity. Show me it from the bible if you have. We do no deny the real status of Jesus. While you abuse Muhammad, we believe in Jesus as a true prophet of God. That was also the belief of the maximum people of his native homeland. That believed inJesus as a prophet. So, please do not say "If you deny Jesus...." Butdon't at the same time expect that we will take Jesus as a God. Give us some breathing space.

Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself???

How sad that you don't believe God is almighty.he can do everything and anything.

Of course God can do what He likes. Remember the word "What He likes" and not what you like. God is almighty and can do what He likes.

The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets.

The word prophet means messenger. There is a Messiah, which Jesus prooved tohave been. If you read the Bible you would know.

We read the bible and we agree that Jesus was the Messiah, the promised Messiah. The one who had come to improve the lot of the Jews....

The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even.

Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that.

That was very bad of you. If it was not for Muhammad then nobody would have known about Jesus. There are christains (Say 2 billion) in the world. There are Muslims (say 1.6 billion) in the world. So altogether 3.6 billion people believe in Jesus as a messenger of Allah. That should be enough and good for all.

My latest remarks are all in pink color.

 



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by buddyman

Andalus,

I believe you've been the one who has been taught out of context. Through out the Bible God tells us who he is. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You don't have to agree, and that is your choice.

So this means you have no reply to anything I have written? All of the copying and pasting you have done and now you sit in silence. That is a shame. It is a shame that faced with valid objections to your beliefs, you simply deflect and blame me for "not having read the bible", and "not being tuaght properly". 

I must also point out that you have not read every book of the Bible.

Irrelevant. (though I know your OT very well and your NT fairly well).

I have read your bible enough to know that your beliefs I replied to are weak and are problematic.

 

 All you have been taught is to dispute the Godhead/Trinity, so that's were all your focus has been. You need to read and STUDY the entire Bible.

All you have been taught is to believe the trinity without question, so much so that you will take implicit verses in the bible and twist them until you can superimose your theological opinions on them.

Furthermore, you have no idea what I have been taught or what my background is. If my case is so weak, then show where my fault is by replying with relevant material directly to my points of objections.

 

Still waiting on your notes about Daniel.

Actually I did reply, the ball is in your court.  

Andalus,

That is a cop out. You know it and I know it. If you have proof of something I'm sure you post it immediatley. As for knowing the OT...Daniel is in the OT...hmmm. Your arguements are very weak. You're afraid that you're being proven wrong. You shouldn't look at it that way. You should be filled with joy that God loves you so much that he is reaching out to you so you will know him.

God Bless You



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:35am

Originally posted by islamispeace

"Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that."

Complete and utter nonsense.  I thought you were better than that buddyman.  Slandering the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?  What do you know about the blessed Muhammad (pbuh)?  He was no murderer.  He was the greatest man to have ever lived, and the most beloved to Allah (swt).  Do not slander him.  He was a brother to Jesus and they both worshiped Allah (swt) alone. 

Islamispeace,

Are you serious? You say Mohammed never killed?



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:39am
Originally posted by paarsurrey

Hi

I have gone through the posts and would like to say that the original poster is a Christian and uless we define the Prophets and have criteria for a truthful prophet and criteria of a false prophet we cannot discern false prophet from a true prophet.

To start with I would quote three passages from OTBible:

"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV).

Another test for determining false prophets in the Torah is found in Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The text is as follows:

"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

"You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NIV).

The penalty for false prophecy, according to the biblical context, is capital punishment (per Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him.

This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet .

Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed.

Thanks

These are very good points, but you forget one thing. The false prophets worshipped OTHER Gods. The didn't worship the same God. Not only that, there has only been ONE God that gave the Ten Commandments. One of the Commandments was to rest on the Seventh Day Sabbath. So if a false prophets has visions and dreams and they come to pass, but they do not agree with the previous prophets, then he is a false prophet.

Please re-read the original post. I believe somewhere in there it says that the have to keep the testimony of God which is the Law....

Also, Jesus was also put to death, and we know what he said was the truth. If you disagree with Jesus, then you are not a true Muslim.



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:45am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Jesus said beware of those who speak in my name, the first person to speak in jesus's name while having never met him  [ie transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ] or known his teachings was paul yet when you look at the bible and christianity today he is the key figure whose teachings are followed even more so than jesus himself.

Had his words been taken out of the bible you would see a different Christianity than the one you have today.

Unlike paul the Prophet muhammad [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] did not speak in the name of Jesus or with his authority he was a prophet in his own right with his own book of revelations, the community he was sent amongst where not Christians so Jesus warning his followers about false prophets after can not apply to him since islam did not primarily spread to Christian areas until after the prophets time.

look also at religion prior to Christianity, all faiths and all prophets had been monotheistic for thousands of years there message of one god had been the same, then some 300 years after the death of christ out of nowhere the doctrine of the trinity is invented [as it is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the bible] and then forced onto the wrold.

Buddymann read the forum description and stick to the forum guidlines.

Actually Paul did meet Jesus. Jesus appreared to Paul while he was on his way to persecute the Christians. Also, how do you know someone? Jesus said to know him, right? Do you know what else he said about knowing him?

How come everytime I post something that you guys don't agree with, you say to stick with forum guidelines?



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 9:10am

By the way, I'd also like to mention to you people that I in no way try to insult anybody. I grew up with a Muslim man. He was from Iraq. He was a wonderful person. I loved him like a Father figure. He was always very respectful, kind and generous.

This does not mean, when I post something that you have to TAKE it as an insult. The mere fact that you guys deny Jesus the Christ as God is blasphemy in my eyes. I still let you have your opinion, just as God lets us have our opinion.

I believe in a loving God. A God that wants us to come to him willfully, not forcefully.



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 9:13am
Thus, in 625, the Meccans sent an army numbering about 3,000 against Medina, the city where Mohammed and the Muslims had fled to when they escaped from Mecca several years before. Mohammed elected to meet this army on the field of battle, and the Muslims were seriously defeated, with Mohammed himself being wounded and sent fleeing from the battlefield. Because of internal dissentions, the Meccans failed to follow up on their advantage and pursue the Muslims. Two years later, though, they returned and attempted to lay siege to Medina. Being forewarned of the Meccan return, Mohammed acted upon the advice of a Persian friend and ordered a ditch dug around the weaker defence quarters of Medina as protection. This artifice, previously unknown in Arabia, hindered the Meccans and their allies, who lifted the siege and departed http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch5.html#ch5 - 39 .

After this "victory" Mohammed and the Muslims became encouraged, and stepped up their raiding behaviour. Many Bedouin tribes were drawn to the Muslim circle by the military victories and prospects of treasure, adding their strength to Mohammed's. It was at this time that Mohammed finished the expulsion of the several Jewish tribes from Medina, and expropriated their lands and properties for himself and his followers.

Victory over Mecca was finally obtained in 630 AD. Using an insignificant incident to provoke a clash of arms, Mohammed led his followers against Mecca, this just a year after Mohammed had signed a ten year peace treaty with that city. The Meccans, who were recognising the solidification of Mohammed's power and the ascendancy of his arms, folded with barely a fight, and the Muslims entered victoriously into the city. As a result of these years of piracy, Muhammed had amassed great personal wealth and power, and Arab tribes from all over the peninsula flocked to him.

During the course of all this fighting and raiding, Mohammed and his Muslim followers developed a love for fighting and loot which came from the life of piracy.

"When he was at the head of a robber community (in Medina) it is probable that the demoralizing influence began to be felt; it was then that men who had never broken an oath learned that they might evade their obligations, and that men to whom the blood of the clansmen had been as their own began to shed it with impunity in the cause of God; and that lying and treachery, in the cause of Islam, received divine approval, hesitation to perjure oneself in that cause being represented as a weakness. It was then, too, that Moslems became distinguished by the obscenity of their language. It was then, too, that the coveting of goods and wives (possessed by unbelievers) was avowed without discouragement from the prophet." http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch5.html#ch5 - 40

What honour these men had from their previous upbringing in the culture of Arabic tradition, what morality they may have engendered from their traditional raising, slowly eroded as the sin in their lives increased and increased. As they became increasingly hardened in their hearts, and their consciences seared, crimes which would before have been unthinkable to them gradually became commonplace.

Islam as a vehicle to wealth and power is clearly demonstrated. Muhammed himself received, by "divine" decree, a fifth of all booty captured in war,

"To whichever village you go and settle therein, there is your share therein, and whichever village disobeys Allah and His Messenger, its one-fifth is for Allah and His Messenger and the remainder is for you." http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch5.html#ch5 - 41

The rest, of course, went to the Muslim followers who took part in battle. Hence, it was good money to be in the business of warfare as a Muslim. After conquest, Islam was further strengthened by the "three choices" option imposed upon conquered peoples. Subject nations were offered one of three choices: Accept Islam and become members of Dar es-Salaam; pay the jizyah, the unbelievers tax; or death http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch5.html#ch5 - 42 . Either way, Islam benefited materially. Unbelievers either became Muslims and contributed to the enhancement of Islamic warmaking, booty-gathering, and social strength; or they became direct sources of revenue for Islamic states; or else they ceased to be "in the way" of Islam's expansion. Mohammed and his religion's attraction to wealth truly bears witness to the Biblical record found in I Timothy 6:10, "For the love of money is the root of all evil...".



Posted By: paarsurrey
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 9:44am
Originally posted by buddyman

Originally posted by paarsurrey

I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him.

This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet .

Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed.

Thanks

Also, Jesus was also put to death, and we know what he said was the truth. If you disagree with Jesus, then you are not a true Muslim.

Hi 

You mentioned in your post that Muhammad was a false Prophet (I take refuge from God) the the Jews and Christian must have killed him as per the OTBible, since they could not kill him that single point proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a true Prophet and all Christians and Jews including the Pope and others are sinful and wrogdoers in terms of Deuteronomy 13:

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, [a] both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things [b] shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

The Jews and Christians did attack Muhammad and his followers but were defeated and routed out by Muhammad SAW.

As far as Jesus is concerned, he was never killed by Jews on the Cross, though he was put on Cross but he was saved by God. I disagree with you but I don't disagree with Jesus.

Paul was killed as he was a false Prophet.

Thanks

 



Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 9:57am
Originally posted by paarsurrey

Originally posted by buddyman

Originally posted by paarsurrey

I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him.

This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet .

Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed.

Thanks

Also, Jesus was also put to death, and we know what he said was the truth. If you disagree with Jesus, then you are not a true Muslim.

Hi 

You mentioned in your post that Muhammad was a false Prophet (I take refuge from God) the the Jews and Christian must have killed him as per the OTBible, since they could not kill him that single point proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a true Prophet and all Christians and Jews including the Pope and others are sinful and wrogdoers in terms of Deuteronomy 13:

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, [a] both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things [b] shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

The Jews and Christians did attack Muhammad and his followers but were defeated and routed out by Muhammad SAW.

As far as Jesus is concerned, he was never killed by Jews on the Cross, though he was put on Cross but he was saved by God. I disagree with you but I don't disagree with Jesus.

Paul was killed as he was a false Prophet.

Thanks

 

So why was John the Baptist killed?  Was he a false prophet?



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 10:47am

Assalamu Alaikum and hi everyone,

Please engage in discussion and don't post links or materials from anti-Islam propaganda sources; there is enough of that elsewhere. 

Once again, engage in a sincere dialogue, and comply with guidelines:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ; ;PN=1

Peace



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Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 11:00am

Buddyman,

lucky for us you are a bad copy-and-paste person.

Please dont plagerize even if its from an anti-Islamic site. By the way, that site is poorly researched and poorly written as the person is subjectifying his so-called unbiased with research with his/her personal views. My guess to this is, you are copying and pasting this crap because you believe it to be true, therefore, any sites that are anti-Islamic are a good source of information. What a sad individual. If you disagree with Islam why continue to dialogue (I mean, argue) here?



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 11:51am

 

 I had to read that long article posted by Buddyman (it was not his own writing). Whatever was written, It was not true. I don't want to humilate BM. But the info given by BM was all false. So what was the use of all that???

BM says if Muslims do not believe that Jesus is god that is blasphemy in his eyes:  The mere fact that you guys deny Jesus the Christ as God is blasphemy in my eyes.

But BM does not know that the Jews were stoning Jesus for calling himself God considering it blasphemy. Jews consider Jesus godhead as blasphemy. BM considers that Muslims not believing Jesus as God is blasphemy. i.e. totally opposite to the real things.

BM had also written that paul met Jesus. that is utterly wrong. A sort of vision while on the road is no meeting. There is no proof or support for that. Paul was the utter enemy of Jesus. How could he become a fast friend in a flash?? Only the christians will believe that.

But then Paul should try to do what Jesus was trying to do. No. Paul did quite the opposite of all the Jesus teachings, making Jesus a cursed person, making him son of God, inventing Trinity, doing away with the entire law of Moses as a curse. The charge sheet agianst paul is not a small one.

 



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 1:03pm
"Islamispeace, Are you serious? You say Mohammed never killed?"

Why are you beating around the bush?  Don't ask these kinds of questions, whose answers you know.  You know that Muslims regard the blessed Muhammad (pbuh) as God's beloved who never hurt an innocent person.  This is historical fact.  You make rash judgements without providing any evidence, such as your claim that crucifixion had been brought back after Jesus' alleged crucifixion.  You provided no historical evidence, only your own conjecture.  Similarly, you slander the Prophet by accusing him of being a murderer, and don't provide any evidence.  What else can this behavior be called?  There is only one word: SLANDER.




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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 1:07pm
Oh and as for your claim that Jesus was killed, you forget that the Holy Quran denies that Jesus was crucified. 

Surah An-Nisa: 157-158

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-




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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 1:40pm
If Mohammed is a TRUE prophet of God Almight, may I drop dead.


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 1:41pm
its so interesting to me..you guys get so angry. instead of getting so angry why don't you say, here let me show you..etc. God gives us free will. We can say and do what ever we want.


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by buddyman

By the way, I'd also like to mention to you people that I in no way try to insult anybody. I grew up with a Muslim man. He was from Iraq. He was a wonderful person. I loved him like a Father figure. He was always very respectful, kind and generous.

This does not mean, when I post something that you have to TAKE it as an insult. The mere fact that you guys deny Jesus the Christ as God is blasphemy in my eyes. I still let you have your opinion, just as God lets us have our opinion.

I believe in a loving God. A God that wants us to come to him willfully, not forcefully.

Did any of you read this post? Not spamming!!..LOL!



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by paarsurrey

Originally posted by buddyman

Originally posted by paarsurrey

I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him.

This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet .

Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed.

Thanks

Also, Jesus was also put to death, and we know what he said was the truth. If you disagree with Jesus, then you are not a true Muslim.

Hi 

You mentioned in your post that Muhammad was a false Prophet (I take refuge from God) the the Jews and Christian must have killed him as per the OTBible, since they could not kill him that single point proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a true Prophet and all Christians and Jews including the Pope and others are sinful and wrogdoers in terms of Deuteronomy 13:

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, [a] both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things [b] shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

The Jews and Christians did attack Muhammad and his followers but were defeated and routed out by Muhammad SAW.

As far as Jesus is concerned, he was never killed by Jews on the Cross, though he was put on Cross but he was saved by God. I disagree with you but I don't disagree with Jesus.

Paul was killed as he was a false Prophet.

Thanks

Request, could you right in a color that isn't so hard to see, like blue or purple, even red.

Also, you haven't read the Bible. You're a hypocrite for cutting and pasting scriptures from the Bible and taking themout of context. Jesus was killed. When Jesus was before Pilate, Pilate asked the Jews, what do you want me to do with him, and Caiphas replied, CRUCIFY HIM". Also, ancient Roman and Jewish writings also tell us that Jesus was killed. have you ever heard of Josephus?

Islam is one of the Trumpets in the Book of Revelation.



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Buddyman,

lucky for us you are a bad copy-and-paste person.

Please dont plagerize even if its from an anti-Islamic site. By the way, that site is poorly researched and poorly written as the person is subjectifying his so-called unbiased with research with his/her personal views. My guess to this is, you are copying and pasting this crap because you believe it to be true, therefore, any sites that are anti-Islamic are a good source of information. What a sad individual. If you disagree with Islam why continue to dialogue (I mean, argue) here?

 

as I mentioned above, why these weak arguements? Why not tell me what is in the Quran instead of posting rediculous comments like these?



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 I had to read that long article posted by Buddyman (it was not his own writing). Whatever was written, It was not true. I don't want to humilate BM. But the info given by BM was all false. So what was the use of all that???

Why wouldn't you want to humiliate me??? If you have the truth wouldn't you want me to know?

BM says if Muslims do not believe that Jesus is god that is blasphemy in his eyes:  The mere fact that you guys deny Jesus the Christ as God is blasphemy in my eyes.

And what i write i also don't think is blasphemy and think you guys shouldn't get so angry..LOL!

But BM does not know that the Jews were stoning Jesus for calling himself God considering it blasphemy. Jews consider Jesus godhead as blasphemy. BM considers that Muslims not believing Jesus as God is blasphemy. i.e. totally opposite to the real things.

Oh so now you agree that Jesus called himself God. I usually get arguements that ask where in the Bible Jesus said he was God...LOL!

BM had also written that paul met Jesus. that is utterly wrong. A sort of vision while on the road is no meeting. There is no proof or support for that. Paul was the utter enemy of Jesus. How could he become a fast friend in a flash?? Only the christians will believe that.

That is what we are told in the Bible. On his way to persecute Jesus's followers -Paul saw Jesus and he went blind for 3 days. jesus told him to go to a house and meet with Ananais. See the scripture for yourself:

Acts 9- yes cutting and pasting scripture - unless you decide to take my word for it..

1(A)Now Saul, still (B)breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,

 2and asked for (C)letters from him to (D)the synagogues at (E)Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to (F)the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

 3As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and (G)suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;

 4and (H)he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

 5And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

 6but get up and enter the city, and (I)it will be told you what you must do."

 7The men who traveled with him (J)stood speechless, (K)hearing the voice but seeing no one.

 8Saul got up from the ground, and (L)though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into (M)Damascus.

 9And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

 10Now there was a disciple at (N)Damascus named (O)Ananias; and the Lord said to him in (P)a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord."

11And the Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from (Q)Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying,

 12and he has seen [a]in a vision a man named Ananias come in and (R)lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight."

 13But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, (S)how much harm he did to (T)Your saints at Jerusalem;

 14and here he (U)has authority from the chief priests to bind all who (V)call on Your name."

 15But the Lord said to him, "Go, for (W)he is a chosen [b]instrument of Mine, to bear My name before (X)the Gentiles and (Y)kings and the sons of Israel;

 16for (Z)I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

 17So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after (AA)laying his hands on him said, "(AB)Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be (AC)filled with the Holy Spirit."

 18And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;

 19and he took food and was strengthened

But then Paul should try to do what Jesus was trying to do. No. Paul did quite the opposite of all the Jesus teachings, making Jesus a cursed person, making him son of God, inventing Trinity, doing away with the entire law of Moses as a curse. The charge sheet agianst paul is not a small one.

The Bible tells us that the scriptures are witten by man INSPIRED by God. So when you make the statment above you are saying God is wrong.



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 2:15pm
Buddyman, I missed your little piece about the battles the Muslims fought.  It seems you indeed have a penchant for cutting and pasting.  The other members of this forum were right on.  I will comment on this as soon as I return from my evening class.  I will show you, inshaAllah, why cutting and pasting is a bad idea, especially if you want to discuss religion.  Until then, I suggest you put your own advice to work.  You advise Muslims to read the Bible.  Perhaps you should read the Quran and Hadiths and familiarize yourself with the true history, not the history as your ministers and fellow missionaries see it.  What is funny is that the little piece you posted says it loud and clear that it was the Meccans who initiated hostilities against the Muslims, who then took up their God-given right to defend themselves.  I am sure you find no fault in the Israelites fighting against their enemies in the Bible, but through your hypocritical mindset, you find fault with the Muslims defending themselves.  What a shame.  Anyway, I wrote more than I intended and now I have to go for a few hours.  I will return later and comment on your attempts to rewrite history, inshaAllah.

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 2:56pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

Buddyman, I missed your little piece about the battles the Muslims fought.  It seems you indeed have a penchant for cutting and pasting.  The other members of this forum were right on.  I will comment on this as soon as I return from my evening class.  I will show you, inshaAllah, why cutting and pasting is a bad idea, especially if you want to discuss religion.  Until then, I suggest you put your own advice to work.  You advise Muslims to read the Bible.  Perhaps you should read the Quran and Hadiths and familiarize yourself with the true history, not the history as your ministers and fellow missionaries see it.  What is funny is that the little piece you posted says it loud and clear that it was the Meccans who initiated hostilities against the Muslims, who then took up their God-given right to defend themselves.  I am sure you find no fault in the Israelites fighting against their enemies in the Bible, but through your hypocritical mindset, you find fault with the Muslims defending themselves.  What a shame.  Anyway, I wrote more than I intended and now I have to go for a few hours.  I will return later and comment on your attempts to rewrite history, inshaAllah.

 

Honestly islamispeace, I don't believe in the Quran. The Torah and New Testament were written before the Quran. If you want to proove anything to me, you will need to use the Bible.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 3:12pm

Buddyman you are a sad individual and honestly you ar not even worth the dialogue. The comment you stated above is clear: "I don't believe in the Quran"

With that being said, how can we have a discussion with you about the Qur'an if you choose to not believe in it?

Another example of proof that you are not here to converse is this:

If Mohammed is a true prophet of God Almighty may I drop dead.

That has to be the st**idest thing I've ever heard. Let me get this straight, if Muhamma dis a true prophet (which he is) you would rather die then read the teachings of a true prophet whose message is the same as the Jesus you supposedly follow? Man, you are a mixed up Christian. I'm not even upset, angry or whatever my thing is Muslims cannot have a conversation with an individual who has a pre-conceived notion about our religion already.

Buddyman you have your mind made up. You have proven to not have an open mind the case is closed we have exposed you to be someone who is here to argue. Just move on to the next Muslim forum. I honestly don't think you could handle brothers like Andalus, and BMZ and I most certainly don't think you could handle me in a philosophical discussion. andalus presented clear refutations to you and you dodge him. So this let's me know when you meet someone who is perhaps more knowledgable than you, you run.

As far as false prophets are concerned if the position of the Christian is Biblical and if one of the characteristics of a false prophet is to lead others away from God then surely Muhammad is not one of them. Muhammad's God as it is expressed throughout the Holy qur'an is the God of Abraham. With that alone we can concur that the spirituality of the Muslim (concerning monotheism) is the same as the Jew and the Christian. Muhammad never said don't believe in the God of Jesus because Muhammad is a slave to the God of Jesus and Moses, and Noah and Adam etc.

 



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 7:34pm
"Honestly islamispeace, I don't believe in the Quran. The Torah and New Testament were written before the Quran. If you want to proove anything to me, you will need to use the Bible."

Well, this was obvious, since you are a Christian.  It is also irrelevant.  You were the one who made the claim that Muhammad (pbuh) was a murderer.  Where do you supposedly get your information?  Is it not from people who "claim" to quote directly from the Holy Quran and the Hadiths?  Therefore, if you really want to know whether the blessed Muhammad (pbuh) was a murderer or not, you would have to verify that from his teachings and his actions, which are contained in the Holy Quran and Hadiths.  What the Christian Bible says is irrelevant here.

I promised to comment on your "cut and paste" claims about the battles Muslims fought against the Meccans and I will deliver on my promise, inshaAllah. 

"Thus, in 625, the Meccans sent an army numbering about 3,000 against Medina, the city where Mohammed and the Muslims had fled to when they escaped from Mecca several years before."

You may or may not know that this refers to the Battle of Uhud, which the Meccans launched to avenge their defeat at the Battle of Badr one year earlier.  As the author states, it was the Meccans who launched the operation, not the Muslims.  The Muslims simply met the enemy in battle.

"Mohammed elected to meet this army on the field of battle, and the Muslims were seriously defeated, with Mohammed himself being wounded and sent fleeing from the battlefield."

Yes, the Battle of Uhud was a defeat for the Muslims and for a moment, there were rumors that Muhammad (pbuh) had been killed.  Of course, those rumors were quickly dismissed.  The battle turned into a defeat mostly because some over-confident archers left their positions, thereby leaving the main Muslim army vulnerable from the rear.  This gave the Meccans the chance they needed to avert another disastrous defeat.  The commander of the Meccans, other than Abu Sufyan, was none other than Khalid ibn Walid.  Both of these men later converted to Islam. 

"Because of internal dissentions, the Meccans failed to follow up on their advantage and pursue the Muslims. Two years later, though, they returned and attempted to lay siege to Medina."

This refers to the Battle of the Trench, in which the Meccans brought the largest army ever assembled in Arabia, numbering 10,000, whereas the Muslims had only 3,000 soldiers.  Obviously, a direct assault on Medina would have been difficult to repel.  Using ingenuity and strategy, the Muslims devised a brilliant defense, which held the Meccan army back for almost a month.  The siege lasted that long.  Had the Meccans succeeded in besieging Medina and breaking through the defenses, they would have slaughtered every inhabitant in the city, women and children included, as per Arab custom.  Therefore, it was imperative that they be repelled.

"Being forewarned of the Meccan return, Mohammed acted upon the advice of a Persian friend and ordered a ditch dug around the weaker defence quarters of Medina as protection. This artifice, previously unknown in Arabia, hindered the Meccans and their allies, who lifted the siege and departed
39."

Not quite.  The author forgets to mention that the Meccans only departed after a sandstorm decimated their ranks.  The timing was just perfect (divine intervention).  This is referred to in Surah Al-Ahzab :9 when God said to the Muslims:

"
O ye who believe! Remember the Grace of Allah, (bestowed) on you, when there came down on you hosts (to overwhelm you): But We sent against them a hurricane and forces that ye saw not: but Allah sees (clearly) all that ye do."

So you see, it was not simply that the Meccans became frustrated by the defenses of the city, but were decimated by phenomenon which Muslims believe were more than just coincidence. 

"After this "victory" Mohammed and the Muslims became encouraged, and stepped up their raiding behaviour."

Absolute nonsense.  No evidence whatsoever presented except a pathetically garbled account of the post-battle incidents.

"Many Bedouin tribes were drawn to the Muslim circle by the military victories and prospects of treasure, adding their strength to Mohammed's. It was at this time that Mohammed finished the expulsion of the several Jewish tribes from Medina, and expropriated their lands and properties for himself and his followers."

The author is referring to the incident involving the Bani Quraiza Jews, but casually fails to mention the other important details.  For instance, he does not consider why the Jews were punished.  Ibn Kathir commented on the significance of the Bani Quraiza in his commentary on Surah Al-Ahzab:

"
Banu Qurayzah, who were a group among the Jews, had a fortress in the south-east of Al-Madinah, and they had made a treaty with the Prophet and were under his protection. They numbered nearly eight hundred fighters. Huyay bin Akhtab An-Nadari went to them and kept trying to persuade them until they broke the treaty and went over to the side of the Confederates against the Messenger of Allah."

From this it is clear that initially, the Bani Quraiza were allies of the Muslims, as they had signed a treaty with the Prophet, in which both sides agreed to help each other in times of distress and danger.  The Bani Quraiza broke their covenant and chose to betray their allies.  The author of your little article conveniently forgets to mention this.  Of course, if you had done your research, you would have known that (Moral of the story: Don't cut and paste ). 

Victory over Mecca was finally obtained in 630 AD. Using an ???insignificant incident??? to provoke a clash of arms, Mohammed led his followers against Mecca, this just a year after Mohammed had signed a ten year peace treaty with that city.

We need to put emphasis on intellectual honesty.  The author chooses to refer to the incident which led to the eventual conquest of Mecca as "insignificant."  This is highly dishonest.  Shame on him.  The treaty which Muhammad (pbuh) signed with the Quraish was known as the "Treaty of Hudaybiyyah."  It was signed around the year 628 CE and was supposed to last for 10 years.  It barely lasted two years.  Why?  Ibn Kathir explains:

"The Messenger of Allah and the Muslims preserved the terms of the treaty with the people of Makkah from the month of Dhul-Qa`dah in the sixth year of Hijrah, until the Quraysh broke it and helped their allies, Banu Bakr, against Khuza`ah, the allies of Allah's Messenger . Aided by the Quraysh, Banu Bakr killed some of Bani Khuza`ah in the Sacred Area! The Messenger of Allah led an invasion army in the month of Ramadan, of the eighth year, and Allah opened the Sacred Area for him to rule over them, all thanks are due to Allah."

The murder of some members of the Bani Khuza'a tribe was the reason the Prophet dissolved the treaty.  That is why he marched on Mecca.  If he had wanted to conquer it before, he certainly could have since the power of the Muslims had grown tremendously since the Battle of the Trench.

"The Meccans, who were recognising the solidification of Mohammed's power and the ascendancy of his arms, folded with barely a fight, and the Muslims entered victoriously into the city."

And not one soul, except a few criminals, were harmed.  The Conquest of Mecca is unique in the battles throughout history, in that it was done without any bloodshed. 

"As a result of these years of piracy, Muhammed had amassed great personal wealth and power, and Arab tribes from all over the peninsula flocked to him."

More nonsense.  If Muhammad (pbuh) had wanted wealth all along, he would have excepted the Quraish's offer they made to him while he was still living in Mecca, in the early years of his mission.  Seeing that their acts of cruelty and humiliation had not deterred him, the Quraish offered Muhammad (pbuh) great wealth and power, by establishing an alliance through marriage with one of the wealthiest families in Mecca.  He of course refused, saying that "if they were to put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left...I would not abandon it (his mission)."

The rest of the article is repetition of the above nonsense and not worth commenting on.  So, buddyman, will you change your views, now that you have seen the real story?  Hmmm?  Or will you remain stubborn and cling to your blind bias?



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 9:16pm
Islamispeace very good reply.....


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 9:51pm

 

 Buddyman says : Muhammad was a murderer. I challenge Bm to show me that from the bible. He should not look to the left or right now. He should show it from his beloved book bible only.

 BM says: If Muhammad is a true prophet of God then I would rather die . That is also a very bad statement. He should say that If Muhammad is a true prophet of God then may Allah guide me to the right path. What use it will be to die denying a true prophet of God !!!.

BM says: He would rather believe the Bible Ot and NT because they are before the Quran. That is another fallacious idea. Why he wants to read an older edition of a book. All the books are from God, the bible Ot and  the bible NT and Quran and there were quite a few more too. He wants to read only the old edition and not the latest edition. O.K. Very well. Then he should only read the bible OT and should not go near the bible NT.

 Why should BM try to believe in the bible NT?? He should not do that. The older the better. Old is gold. Also BM can look for some manuscript of the books / notes of Abraham. They will be even better for him.

 We are giving all types of true and correct arguments to BM in good faith but it is clear that he has some odd agenda. BM is asking us to do this and to do that instead of that/this. Bm abused our prophet too but we kept quiet.

There is no hurry. If BM wants to learn he will be able to do it himself slowly. First he needs to have a clear mindset and he should allow to others what he wants for himself.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: paarsurrey
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 3:51am
Originally posted by minuteman

BM says: If Muhammad is a true prophet of God then I would rather die . That is also a very bad statement. He should say that If Muhammad is a true prophet of God then may Allah guide me to the right path. What use it will be to die denying a true prophet of God !!!.

Hi

I think you mean from BM to Buddyman. BM is another person who writes here frequently.

Thanks



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 3:58am

 

 Of course by BM I mean Buddyman. I do not know of another BM here unless he be BMZ. Thanks for the news. I will be careful. I will address Buddyman only as BM.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 7:28am
paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed?


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 8:53am

 

Sorry Doo=bop, I had noticed your question but forgot to reply. Paarsurrey may also reply on his own.

John the Baptist was true prophet of God. He had come to clear the way for Jesus. He had come in the spirit of Elias.

Because he was killed does not mean that he was a fasle prophet of God. No. He was not killed by the Jews. Remember the words of Jesus posted by Paarsurrey that accused the Jews of killing the prophets of God was upto Zakariyya a.s. Not the son of Zakariyyah. JTBaptist was killed by the Herod.

Also it was a sudden thing. John did not know what was coming so he did not have any time to pray to God about it. It was not like Jesus who had time to pray and beseech the God to avert the dirty cup from him.

 



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 9:37am

actually I didn't say if Mohammed is a true prophet I would rather die. I said if Mohammed is a true prophet may I drop dead....

 

I'm still here...LOL!

PS Mohammed in not in the Bible. To islamispeace, I asked that you proove things from the Bible because the Bible (OT & NT) were written WAY before the Quran. And no I don't believe in the Quran because it denys Jesus as God almighty. The fac of the matter is you guys can't proove anything to me from the Bible, this is why you're getting so upset. Which to me is very sad.

I don't give you this information for my benefit. I already know all of this. I give it to you so that you may not becieved. I believe Jesus is coming VERY soon. Much sooner than anyone believes. I give this worls a maximum of 25 years..LOL! This is being nice. I really think we have a maximum of 10 years, but that's just my opinion.

God Bless you and I pray that the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth. Amen.



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 9:38am

Originally posted by Doo-bop

paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed?

 

Do you read my posts?



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 9:43am
Originally posted by Israfil

Buddyman you are a sad individual and honestly you ar not even worth the dialogue. The comment you stated above is clear: "I don't believe in the Quran"

With that being said, how can we have a discussion with you about the Qur'an if you choose to not believe in it?

Another example of proof that you are not here to converse is this:

If Mohammed is a true prophet of God Almighty may I drop dead.

That has to be the st**idest thing I've ever heard. Let me get this straight, if Muhamma dis a true prophet (which he is) you would rather die then read the teachings of a true prophet whose message is the same as the Jesus you supposedly follow? Man, you are a mixed up Christian. I'm not even upset, angry or whatever my thing is Muslims cannot have a conversation with an individual who has a pre-conceived notion about our religion already.

Buddyman you have your mind made up. You have proven to not have an open mind the case is closed we have exposed you to be someone who is here to argue. Just move on to the next Muslim forum. I honestly don't think you could handle brothers like Andalus, and BMZ and I most certainly don't think you could handle me in a philosophical discussion. andalus presented clear refutations to you and you dodge him. So this let's me know when you meet someone who is perhaps more knowledgable than you, you run.

I thin Andalus and I have a good relationship. We are going to discuss the Book of Daniel very soon. I have never dodged him intentionally..so I don't know what you're talking about.

As far as false prophets are concerned if the position of the Christian is Biblical and if one of the characteristics of a false prophet is to lead others away from God then surely Muhammad is not one of them. Muhammad's God as it is expressed throughout the Holy qur'an is the God of Abraham. With that alone we can concur that the spirituality of the Muslim (concerning monotheism) is the same as the Jew and the Christian. Muhammad never said don't believe in the God of Jesus because Muhammad is a slave to the God of Jesus and Moses, and Noah and Adam etc.

Muslims reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Therefore we do not worship the same God. Paul said in Romans that if we believe in Jesus, then we are Abrahams seed.

Islamispeace,

Do you you think we have much more time on this Earth?



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 11:13am

Well the minute dispute whether Muslims accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a constant one that has been going on for many decades. Buddyman the reason I say you are not worthy to discuss is because regardless whether we put up a good arguement, the fact of the matter is you are going to retain your belief. I rather discuss individuals who are open to the possibility that they may not be right. I like discussing with individuals who are stern in their beliefs but because you(buddyman) came with the wrong approach I'm just simply turned off in having a dialogue with you.

If you came with sincerity and with some seeking of knowledge of a rleigious outside yours then I would be more open to accept you but frankly coming to a Muslim forum and saying Muhammad is a murderer is not the right approach and in fact it is the wrong approach. I think if it were Jesus he would say something like "I sincerely disagree with Islam for reasons (A) and (B) but I would like to discuss my disagreement with any Muslim in hoping to share my thoughts"

I know that is a little extensive but the point is your negative approach is what makes others defensive. I really don't get defensive because as others say, I'm very (and most times) over confident and I know that if I sat down and had a dialogue with you philosophically of course I don't think you would be a formidable opponent.

Yes you may have a good relationship with brother Andalus but he is more patient than me and frankly I just didn't like your approach. I don't think your approach is even Christian like. If I wanted to turn to Jesus I don't think I would come to you for online guidence obviously but if you are a true Christian your behavior should reflect Christ's teachings. So simply coming to a Muslim site and saying "Muhammad is a murderer" or "Muhammad is a false prophet because he is not in the Bible" is not a logical approach. You have to defend your position. Frankly, I think in order to be a good debator especially for your religion you should take classes on how to defend your position. You really cannot defend your position with your own words except pull out a bible and comment word for word.

I don't even think you a even licensed as a theologian, priest or anyone with specific background in Biblical interpretation. I find most christians to be wrong not because of their Christian beliefs but because they don't know the original languages that the teachings come from, Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew. Primarily the latter. I find that Christians only pick specific Greek/Hebrew words that relate to their beliefs but are not proficient in the ancient languages themselves. I really think buddyman you need to study your faith more. I'm a Muslim and I can read some Greek and Hebrew and some Arabic. I can recite the Sh'ma (which according to your Bible and Judaic thought is God's greatest commandment) and other passages in their original language. I really think you should change your approach that's all.



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 11:25am
"PS Mohammed in not in the Bible. To islamispeace, I asked that you proove things from the Bible because the Bible (OT & NT) were written WAY before the Quran. And no I don't believe in the Quran because it denys Jesus as God almighty. The fac of the matter is you guys can't proove anything to me from the Bible, this is why you're getting so upset. Which to me is very sad."

What does proving whether Muhammad (pbuh) is a murderer or not have to do with the Bible?  Can someone explain this to me?  You asserted that Muhammad (pbuh) was a murderer.  You were asked to provide evidence to back up this assertion.  Your response was that "Muhammad is not in the Bible."  What??!!  Is that why you believe he was a "murderer"?  Because he is not in the Bible?  Do you have any logical reason why you think he is a murderer?  Obviously, the article you provided did not tell the whole story, as I showed.  So, I guess you will remain stubborn in your satanic hatred of the blessed Muhammad (pbuh).  At least you answered that question, even if you did not specifically address it.  Your words are enough.  How sad.

"I don't give you this information for my benefit. I already know all of this. I give it to you so that you may not becieved."

You are the one who has been deceived buddy.  I already showed you that.




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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Israfil

Well the minute dispute whether Muslims accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a constant one that has been going on for many decades. Buddyman the reason I say you are not worthy to discuss is because regardless whether we put up a good arguement, the fact of the matter is you are going to retain your belief. I rather discuss individuals who are open to the possibility that they may not be right. I like discussing with individuals who are stern in their beliefs but because you(buddyman) came with the wrong approach I'm just simply turned off in having a dialogue with you.

If you came with sincerity and with some seeking of knowledge of a rleigious outside yours then I would be more open to accept you but frankly coming to a Muslim forum and saying Muhammad is a murderer is not the right approach and in fact it is the wrong approach. I think if it were Jesus he would say something like "I sincerely disagree with Islam for reasons (A) and (B) but I would like to discuss my disagreement with any Muslim in hoping to share my thoughts"

I know that is a little extensive but the point is your negative approach is what makes others defensive. I really don't get defensive because as others say, I'm very (and most times) over confident and I know that if I sat down and had a dialogue with you philosophically of course I don't think you would be a formidable opponent.

Yes you may have a good relationship with brother Andalus but he is more patient than me and frankly I just didn't like your approach. I don't think your approach is even Christian like. If I wanted to turn to Jesus I don't think I would come to you for online guidence obviously but if you are a true Christian your behavior should reflect Christ's teachings. So simply coming to a Muslim site and saying "Muhammad is a murderer" or "Muhammad is a false prophet because he is not in the Bible" is not a logical approach. You have to defend your position. Frankly, I think in order to be a good debator especially for your religion you should take classes on how to defend your position. You really cannot defend your position with your own words except pull out a bible and comment word for word.

I don't even think you a even licensed as a theologian, priest or anyone with specific background in Biblical interpretation. I find most christians to be wrong not because of their Christian beliefs but because they don't know the original languages that the teachings come from, Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew. Primarily the latter. I find that Christians only pick specific Greek/Hebrew words that relate to their beliefs but are not proficient in the ancient languages themselves. I really think buddyman you need to study your faith more. I'm a Muslim and I can read some Greek and Hebrew and some Arabic. I can recite the Sh'ma (which according to your Bible and Judaic thought is God's greatest commandment) and other passages in their original language. I really think you should change your approach that's all.

 

Israfil,

I disagree with you and here is why:

After his migration to Medina, Muhammad's attitude towards Christians and Jews changed. Norman Stillman states:

During this fateful time, fraught with tension after the Hidjra [migration to Medina], when Muhammad encountered contradiction, ridicule and rejection from the Jewish scholars in Medina, he came to adopt a radically more negative view of the people of the Book who had received earlier scriptures. This attitude was already evolving in the third Meccan period as the Prophet became more aware of the antipathy between Jews and Christians and the disagreements and strife amongst members of the same religion. The Qur'an at this time claims that it will "relate [correctly] to the Children of Israel most of that about which they differ" ( XXVII, 76).

Jewish opposition "may well have been for political as well as religious reasons".[64]On religious grounds, the Jews were skeptical of the possibility of a non-Jewish prophet,[65] and also had concerns about possible incompatibilities between the Qur'an and their own scriptures.[65][66] The Qur'an's response regarding the possibility of a non-Jew being a prophet was that Abraham was not a Jew. The Qur'an also claimed that it was "restoring the pure monotheism of Abraham which had been corrupted in various, clearly specified, ways by Jews and Christians".[65] According to Peters, "The Jews also began secretly to connive with Muhammad's enemies in Mecca to overthrow him."[67]

After each major battle with the Medinans, Muhammad accused one of the Jewish tribes of treachery (see Surah 2:100) and attacked it. After Badr and Uhud, the Banu Qaynuqa and Banu Nadir, respectively, were expelled "with their families and possessions" from Medina. After the Battle of the Trench in 627, the Muslims accused the Jews of Banu Qurayza of conspiring with the Meccans, then exterminated the male members of the Banu Qurayza. The females and children were sold as slaves. [68]

Two types of explanations are given for Muhammad's treatment of the Jews of Medina: Theological and Political. The theological explanation given by some Arab historians and biographers is that:"the punishment of the Medina Jews, who were invited to convert and refused, perfectly exemplify the Quran's tales of what happened to those who rejected the prophets of old." Others offered a political explanation.[69] F.E. Peters, a western scholar of Islam, states that Muhammad's treatment of Jews of Medina was essentially political being prompted by what Muhammad read as treasonous and not some transgression of the law of God.[67] Peters adds that Muhammad was possibly emboldened by his military successes and also wanted to push his advantage. Economical motivations according to Peters also existed since the poorness of the Meccan migrants was a source of concern for Muhammad.[70] Peters argues that Muhammad's treatment of the Jews of Medina was "quite extraordinary", "matched by nothing in the Qur'an", and is "quite at odds with Muhammad's treatment of the Jews he encountered outside Medina."[67]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Muhammad_and_the_Jewish_tribes_of_Medina - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Muhammad_and_the_Jewis h_tribes_of_Medina

 



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 2:38pm

Buddyman you are missing my point....

Regardless what you think of Muhammad it is your attitude specifically I am addressing. If you disagree with our prophet that is fine. but it is your attitude that is noticeable. If you are staunch in your position that is fine but your ways about arguing your points are unnecessary. Simply copying and pasting anti-Islamic websites is not a good debater that is simply plagerizing and using other peoples wrong information as your own. I'm addressing your attitude not your position.



Posted By: paarsurrey
Date Posted: 19 July 2007 at 10:21am

Originally posted by Doo-bop

paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed?

Hi

My post was about Muhammad, Jonah, Jesus and Paul. Your question is not related to my post, however , I would give an answer. I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam , we have Quran as the pristine word of GodAllahYHWH and I am to follow Quran unless I am convinced otherwise. Quran does not mention that John was killed. Moreover from the name John or Yahya used by Quran for the same person, this means " he lives or would live ".

NTBible , though an historical religious source, provides contadictory statements and is subject to cross-examination that has not been done due to blind faith of Catholics/Protestants. 

Thanks

Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Israfil

Buddyman you are missing my point....

Regardless what you think of Muhammad it is your attitude specifically I am addressing. If you disagree with our prophet that is fine. but it is your attitude that is noticeable. If you are staunch in your position that is fine but your ways about arguing your points are unnecessary. Simply copying and pasting anti-Islamic websites is not a good debater that is simply plagerizing and using other peoples wrong information as your own. I'm addressing your attitude not your position.

 

Sorry you think the encycholpedia is anti-islamic.



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 10:07am
Originally posted by paarsurrey

Originally posted by Doo-bop

paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed?

Hi

My post was about Muhammad, Jonah, Jesus and Paul. Your question is not related to my post, however , I would give an answer. I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam , we have Quran as the pristine word of GodAllahYHWH and I am to follow Quran unless I am convinced otherwise. Quran does not mention that John was killed. Moreover from the name John or Yahya used by Quran for the same person, this means " he lives or would live ".

NTBible , though an historical religious source, provides contadictory statements and is subject to cross-examination that has not been done due to blind faith of Catholics/Protestants. 

Thanks

Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.

 

Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?

"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)

The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)

 



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 5:38pm
"Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?

"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)

The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)"

You can barely quote your own Bible without misconstruing the verses.  What business do you have in quoting the Holy Quran? 

You badly quoted Surah 3:93, which in its entirety, says:

"All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

Notice that this is not a command to the Muslims to go and read the Torah, but to the Jews.  Furthermore, if you had actually read the surah, instead of finding a reference to it from some article or website, you would have known that in verse 78, Allah (swt) says:

"
There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!"


So, there it is in plain words.  The Quran does say that the Jews altered the words of God.  Notice Ibn Kathir's commentary on this verse:

"
Allah states that some Jews, may Allah's curses descend on them, distort Allah's Words with their tongues, change them from their appropriate places, and alter their intended meanings. They do this to deceive the ignorant people by making it appear that their words are in the Book of Allah. They attribute their own lies to Allah, even though they know that they have lied and invented falsehood. Therefore, Allah said, (and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.)

Mujahid, Ash-Sha`bi, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that, (who distort the Book with their tongues,) means, "They alter them (Allah's Words).''

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation can remove the Words of Allah from His Books, they alter and distort their apparent meanings. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and the Injil remain as Allah revealed them, and no letter in them was removed. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves.  Then, (they say: "This is from Allah,'' but it is not from Allah;) as for Allah's Books, they are still preserved and cannot be changed.'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement. However, if Wahb meant the books that are currently in the hands of the People of the Book, then we should state that there is no doubt that they altered, distorted, added to and deleted from them. For instance, the Arabic versions of these books contain tremendous error, many additions and deletions and enormous misinterpretation. Those who rendered these translations have incorrect comprehension in most, rather, all of these translations. If Wahb meant the Books of Allah that He has with Him, then indeed, these Books are preserved and were never changed."

So, the "guidance and light" referred to in Surah 5 is from the actual Word of God, not the blasphemous words of the men who altered it and deceived many people. 

The moral of this story is: Don't quote the Holy Quran, buddyman, since you have no knowledge of it.  I have shown you instances where you have misconstrued the verses from your own Bible, so you have no business quoting from the Holy Quran! 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: paarsurrey
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 9:11pm

Originally posted by buddyman

Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)

Hi

Yes, Quran does say that GodAllahYHWH did sent Word to Moses and Jesus and in its pristine text it did contain guidance for the people for whom it was sent. Now, they don't even have the origianl text in Hebrew or Aramaic the languages in which it was sent and inner evidence in these books also confirms the same. It has got historic value only, unless renovated and or built again from the original text and made aligned with Quran, it cannot be trusted to.

Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” - rather Jesus was not killed on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.

 



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 10:16pm

 

 That instruction to bring and Read Torah and Injeel may be directed towards the Jews and the christians only. Not to the Muslims. That was to prove some point to the two religions about their misconcieved ideas. That also proved that there was still some element of truth in those books and those books were not entirely corrupted.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 01 August 2007 at 12:27am
Originally posted by buddyman

Originally posted by paarsurrey

Originally posted by Doo-bop

paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed?

Hi

My post was about Muhammad, Jonah, Jesus and Paul. Your question is not related to my post, however , I would give an answer. I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam , we have Quran as the pristine word of GodAllahYHWH and I am to follow Quran unless I am convinced otherwise. Quran does not mention that John was killed. Moreover from the name John or Yahya used by Quran for the same person, this means " he lives or would live ".

NTBible , though an historical religious source, provides contadictory statements and is subject to cross-examination that has not been done due to blind faith of Catholics/Protestants. 

Thanks

Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.

 

Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?

"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)

The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)

 

"reading", and "following" are two different things. I find it humorous that you plead with people to read the bible, but you have no knowledge of the Quran. You just took a verse completely out of context.



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by buddyman

Originally posted by paarsurrey

Originally posted by Doo-bop

paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed?

Hi

My post was about Muhammad, Jonah, Jesus and Paul. Your question is not related to my post, however , I would give an answer. I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam , we have Quran as the pristine word of GodAllahYHWH and I am to follow Quran unless I am convinced otherwise. Quran does not mention that John was killed. Moreover from the name John or Yahya used by Quran for the same person, this means " he lives or would live ".

NTBible , though an historical religious source, provides contadictory statements and is subject to cross-examination that has not been done due to blind faith of Catholics/Protestants. 

Thanks

Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.

 

Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?

"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)

The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)

 

"reading", and "following" are two different things. I find it humorous that you plead with people to read the bible, but you have no knowledge of the Quran. You just took a verse completely out of context.

By all means, post the entire verse.



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 5:33pm
Another one sentence response by Buddyman!  Did you not read my response?  I proved your naive assertions wrong!  I showed the proper context of those verses. 

-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:06pm

 

 Buddyman is not trying to understand:

 Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?

"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)

 The above instruction in the Quran is tothe Jews and christians at the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. That reading of the Torah is not being told to Muslims.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 1:06pm
Do you believe the scriptures of the Bible were corrupted before Mohammed or after?


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 August 2007 at 7:52pm
" Do you believe the scriptures of the Bible were corrupted before Mohammed or after?"

Before.

-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 11 August 2007 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

" Do you believe the scriptures of the Bible were corrupted before Mohammed or after?"

Before.


So why would God ask you to read them even just as a guide? Doesn't make sense.


Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by Doo-bop

Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

What does that have to do with Islam and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)???

In fact, every time the Bible refers to righteous people, they fit in with the description of Muslims:

 

After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hand

[Revelation chapter 7:9]

hmmmmm....why would muslims be standing before the Lamb? - they don't even acknowledge him.  And I don't see any palms in the hands of the muslims in your pictures....

 
Ye thats a good one why should they stand before lamb as for they reject hims as the son of God you see muslims got a double agenda they never ever believed in revelation but they wana bear fruit out of it with thier so called lien prophecies.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 January 2010 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by buddyman

Originally posted by islamispeace

" Do you believe the scriptures of the Bible were corrupted before Mohammed or after?"

Before.


So why would God ask you to read them even just as a guide? Doesn't make sense.


Hi,
we don't, nor God asks us to read them. As a Muslim we believe in all of God's prophets and the message they brought from God. Quran tells us (and study confirms) that word of God sent to prophet Jesus and previous messengers was altered by man thus leaving it impure and unfit for human guidance. Thus humanity in need of a pure word from God was blessed with Quran.
Pure Gospel or Torah does not exist anymore.
If anyone of us read or use it here is only to show those of you who claim to believe in them and do not accept anything else but them, as a reference or to make a point.
For example, Christians claim that Jesus is God. Upon reading the Bible, one discovers that there is not a single claim by Jesus himself to that affect. Instead we find passages that show that Jesus in fact prayed to God and not to himself. Jesus called upon God, cried for help to God and even said: " I am returning to my God and your God." And that's what Quran affirms too that Jesus has a God like we do. But since some people don't want to believe the Quran, we use passages from their own book to show them that their claim and the Bible don;t match.
Peace
Hasan



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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 January 2010 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by JOUBERAR

Originally posted by Doo-bop

Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

What does that have to do with Islam and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)???

In fact, every time the Bible refers to righteous people, they fit in with the description of Muslims:

 

After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hand

[Revelation chapter 7:9]

hmmmmm....why would muslims be standing before the Lamb? - they don't even acknowledge him.  And I don't see any palms in the hands of the muslims in your pictures....

 
Ye thats a good one why should they stand before lamb as for they reject hims as the son of God you see muslims got a double agenda they never ever believed in revelation but they wana bear fruit out of it with thier so called lien prophecies.





Jouberar,
my friend you even don't know what "son of God" means, and you failed to answer my question. How many sons God has, or is Jesus the only son of God?
Hasan



-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 23 January 2010 at 5:10am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by JOUBERAR

Originally posted by Doo-bop

Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

What does that have to do with Islam and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)???

In fact, every time the Bible refers to righteous people, they fit in with the description of Muslims:

 

After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hand

[Revelation chapter 7:9]

hmmmmm....why would muslims be standing before the Lamb? - they don't even acknowledge him.  And I don't see any palms in the hands of the muslims in your pictures....

 
Ye thats a good one why should they stand before lamb as for they reject hims as the son of God you see muslims got a double agenda they never ever believed in revelation but they wana bear fruit out of it with thier so called lien prophecies.





Jouberar,
my friend you even don't know what "son of God" means, and you failed to answer my question. How many sons God has, or is Jesus the only son of God?
Hasan

Heb 1:1 Long ago in many ways and at many times God's prophets spoke his message to our ancestors.

Heb 1:2 But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son.

Heb 1:3 God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side of the glorious God in heaven.

Heb 1:4 He had become much greater than the angels, and the name he was given is far greater than any of theirs.

Heb 1:5 God has never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son, because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son!"

Heb 1:6 When God brings his first-born Son into the world, he commands all of his angels to worship him.

Heb 1:7 And when God speaks about the angels, he says, "I change my angels into wind and my servants into flaming fire."

Heb 1:8 But God says about his Son, "You are God, and you will rule as King forever! Your royal power brings about justice.

Heb 1:9 You loved justice and hated evil, and so I, your God, have chosen you. I appointed you and made you happier than any of your friends."

 
At least we as christians got a saviour,while muslims are searching in vain.



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