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Afghanistan

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Regional
Forum Name: Middle East
Forum Discription: Middle East
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=936
Printed Date: 24 November 2014 at 4:59pm


Topic: Afghanistan
Posted By: kim!
Subject: Afghanistan
Date Posted: 18 May 2005 at 11:59pm

 

http://www.rawa.org/3women.htm - http://www.rawa.org/3women.htm

"KABUL, May 2 (Reuters) - Authorities have found the bodies of three Afghan women, one of whom worked for an aid group, who were raped, strangled and dumped with a warning for women not to work for such groups, an official said on Monday."

 

http://www.rawa.org/jail-women.htm - http://www.rawa.org/jail-women.htm

"Afghan women still in chains under Karzai

Kabul's central jail holds female prisoners whose only 'crime' is their refusal to be second-class citizens. Ramita Navai reports"




Replies:
Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 19 May 2005 at 4:02am

Kim,

It's amazing what we can do with the news today. A DIY. If we pick and chose reports we can form some interesting images of countries. But lets not attribute and generalize it to be something of religion or citizenship... 

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15340876-2,00.html - http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15340876-2,00.html

The 57-year-old Brisbane man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, pleaded guilty in the Brisbane District Court today to a swag of charges including maintaining a relationship with a child under 12, rape, and possessing child pornography.

Queensland Director of Public Prosecutions Leanne Clare told the court the man abused four boys between 2002-04: a five-year-old, 11-year-old twins, one of whom was intellectually disabled, and a 12-year-old boy who was his nephew.

Ms Clare said police found 19 compact discs at the man's home containing nearly 4000 images involving "the most extreme level of child sexual abuse"...



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: kim!
Date Posted: 19 May 2005 at 6:03am
Oooh yeah, but my point was that the American invasion has not helped. Just like we mostly guessed it wouldn't. Like in Iraq with the insurgents who refuse to let the Iraqi people get on with trying to imrpove their lives.

Hopefully this guy will be put away forever.

Kim...


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 19 May 2005 at 8:27am
This guy (or to be more correct, those behind him) is bringing changes to the world in such a way that eventually it will help divide humanity into believers and disbelievers... idiots and people benefitting from their intellect... sincere and artificial... just and corrupt... dedicated and ignorant... kind and coldhearted... good and bad. He's a catalyst in the process. In his own words, it is either you are with him or you are with the rest... And it is no armadillo chasing, its a real stuff...

-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 23 May 2005 at 10:22pm

Originally posted by kim!

Oooh yeah, but my point was that the American invasion has not helped. Just like we mostly guessed it wouldn't. Like in Iraq with the insurgents who refuse to let the Iraqi people get on with trying to imrpove their lives.

Hopefully this guy will be put away forever.

Kim...

Well it hasn't helped the US build its pipeline from Turkmenistan to the Indian Ocean yet. The negotiations broke down between Chevron and the Taliban during the summer of 2001, so the US took over the whole country. And what do you know--Karzai used to be a consultant for Chevron.



-------------
Yusuf


Posted By: UmTayyab
Date Posted: 25 May 2005 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

[Well it hasn't helped the US build its pipeline from Turkmenistan to the Indian Ocean yet. The negotiations broke down between Chevron and the Taliban during the summer of 2001, so the US took over the whole country. And what do you know--Karzai used to be a consultant for Chevron.

BINGO!!! And where is he now, that all those promised mountains of gold have yet to be delivered.

As to the issue of the women, we have witnessed nothing, only relying on the media propaganda machine.  It is a sin to take the word of the enemy as truth without verification from reliable sources.

I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them.

I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.



Posted By: kim!
Date Posted: 25 May 2005 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by UmTayyab

]

  I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them.

I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

mmmm...Sounds like gossip and slander to me!

Why so harsh? Human nature compels people to rebel against repression. eg: Force women to hide and be plain and be silent and all they will want to do is go out and be beautiful and be heard.

Kim...



Posted By: UmTayyab
Date Posted: 26 May 2005 at 6:59am
Not muslim women with taqwa.  Their obedience to Allah surpasses their ego.


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 26 May 2005 at 7:04am

Assalamu alaikum,

Ameen, Sister UmTayyab, Ameen!  Obedience to Allah over ego is a concept non-Muslims have a very hard time with.

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: UmTayyab
Date Posted: 26 May 2005 at 7:05am
Originally posted by kim!

Originally posted by UmTayyab

]

  I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them.

I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

mmmm...Sounds like gossip and slander to me!

Why so harsh? Human nature compels people to rebel against repression. eg: Force women to hide and be plain and be silent and all they will want to do is go out and be beautiful and be heard.

Kim...

Because I know women's nature, as I am a woman.  And I know what a woman is capable of when she has no respect for herself, her society and her Creator, because I was that kind of woman, so I think I have the right to judge that women can be the ugliest fitna on earth.  They spoil the family, spoil the society and when they attain power over their parents and husbands, they are never satisfied to remain patient and balanced, they become oppressive and selfish and corrupt for attention and validation.

They understood their society.  If they choose to make fitna, who am I to feel sorry?



Posted By: Mujahida
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 12:22am

Assalamu Alaikum Umm Tayeb

Jazakallahu khair for your strong and truthful reply.

Originally posted by UmTayyab

I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

I total agree with you for there is no compromise in Islam.

Oh Allah help those who fight for your sake and are trying to make Your Word the highest. Ameen!

Wassalam

Your sister in Islam

Umm Usama



-------------
Oh Allah help the mujahideen against the disbelievers. Oh Allah make their feet firm on the ground. They are fighting for your sake only. Have mercy on them for You are All-Merciful. Ameen!


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 12:38am

As-salaamu'alaikum,

Looks like today's battles will be won by women...



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MOCKBA


Posted By: mujaahid
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 3:40am

That is the real jihad

I agree with Mujaahida and UmTayeb



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Oh ALLAH BLESS ME WITH THE SHAHADAH


Posted By: mujaahid
Date Posted: 28 May 2005 at 3:44am

I and i totally disagree with KIM!

Does anyone have some jihad sites they can share



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Oh ALLAH BLESS ME WITH THE SHAHADAH


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 07 June 2005 at 3:54pm

Salam All,

One interesting thing is ignorance of the western population about socio-cultural background of area near and around Afghanistan. Among others, a typical way of living style in that region is totally different than they can even imagine it to be. Whatever they know is through what media tell them. Through this source, they often blame Taliban government of supressing the rights of women, but it would be more interesting to know the state of these rights before (through history) and after Taliban (the Karazi government). Do we find any change? If not, then is it legitimate to blame Taliban (may be for many other things, however) for all those social problems that existed before them and continued in their own tenure and is still prevalent in their society. Another interesting evidence to look upon for the social injustices/practices against women is the attached north western area of Pakistan where Taliban never ruled. The state of women in this part of Pakistan is the same (if not worst) than in the most part of Afghanistan. Though, Taliban might have added fuel to the fire, however, their practices were not very unfamiliar to their subjects.

I hope this would provide some alternate view for understanding the situation of Afghanistan and its neigbouring area. 



Posted By: kim!
Date Posted: 07 June 2005 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by UmTayyab

  Because I know women's nature, as I am a woman.  And I know what a woman is capable of when she has no respect for herself, her society and her Creator, because I was that kind of woman, so I think I have the right to judge that women can be the ugliest fitna on earth.  They spoil the family, spoil the society and when they attain power over their parents and husbands, they are never satisfied to remain patient and balanced, they become oppressive and selfish and corrupt for attention and validation.

They understood their society.  If they choose to make fitna, who am I to feel sorry?

Why YES! Of course! How silly of me not to have seen it in the first place! WHile these women were trying to bring a touch of beauty and rebellion/strength into their lives - their lives of repression, of beatings, of silence, or starvation, of ugliness, of bombings and hate - they were ACTUALLY being very active Lipstick Terrorists!

Oh! How stupid of me! So _instead_ of helping these Afghan women, by giving them food, by giving them work and education (and, therefore, a means of sustenance) and by giving them safety and maybe even educating them and their societies in the TRUE ways of Islam (including protecting women and not beating them for superficial, trivial reasons), we should have been dropping MORE bombs on them!

I shall go and flog myself immediately.

By the way - do you just simply hate other women, or do you have to been seen to be this militant against them in order to hide doubts and weaknesses of your own?

Kim... 



Posted By: kim!
Date Posted: 07 June 2005 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Salam All,

One interesting thing is ignorance of the western population about socio-cultural background of area near and around Afghanistan. Among others, a typical way of living style in that region is totally different than they can even imagine it to be. Whatever they know is through what media tell them. Through this source, they often blame Taliban government of supressing the rights of women, but it would be more interesting to know the state of these rights before (through history) and after Taliban (the Karazi government). Do we find any change? If not, then is it legitimate to blame Taliban (may be for many other things, however) for all those social problems that existed before them and continued in their own tenure and is still prevalent in their society. Another interesting evidence to look upon for the social injustices/practices against women is the attached north western area of Pakistan where Taliban never ruled. The state of women in this part of Pakistan is the same (if not worst) than in the most part of Afghanistan. Though, Taliban might have added fuel to the fire, however, their practices were not very unfamiliar to their subjects.

I hope this would provide some alternate view for understanding the situation of Afghanistan and its neigbouring area. 

At least a few of us out here in the wild West are aware of this and we make sure we spread the word to people - that it's not just the Taliban who have been repressing the Afghan women. I explain that women have had to wear burkhas for a LONG time outside of the cities, because the Northern Alliance guys abuse women too. Then I go on to tell them about the invasion of the Russians and how the Taliban were friends of and funded and trained by the US, etc, etc.

It's amazing to see some people's reactions. Specially when you explain it to Americans face to face.

Kim...



Posted By: Community
Date Posted: 07 June 2005 at 11:16pm
From what i heard is that the US provided for the weapons for the afghani jihad against Russia but that it was the Saudi government who paid for it, or atleast for a great part of it, and after the war was won they basically turned their backs on them, by the US which is kind of understandable(no real interest untill recently) and by Saudi Arabia with all it's wealth, instead of helping them to become a desent society they dropped them.  


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 08 June 2005 at 8:06am
Originally posted by UmTayyab

............As to the issue of the women, we have witnessed nothing, only relying on the media propaganda machine.  It is a sin to take the word of the enemy as truth without verification from reliable sources.

I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them.

I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

I think, before anyone start blaming the victims than their killers, its more prudent to atleast read the news that has been posted by the originator (Sis KIM). With presuppositions in favour of Taliban, this reply of your seems little meaningless especially once the report is read more thoroughly. The details of the report clearly rules out this atrociticity to be perpetuated by Talibans. Kindly note the highlighted and underlined text from this report. First of all it says "Aid workers in Afghanistan have been the target of Taliban insurgents, especially in the insurgency-plagued south and east of the country, but the three women were found in the northern province of Baghlan, where Taliban rebels are not active. "

Then it says "A group calling itself "Afghan Youths Convention" claimed responsibility for the killing, according to a caller who telephoned a Reuters reporter in northern Afghanistan. "

And finally it becomes more obvious that it can't be the work of a so called relegious group when the report says "A doctor in the city said forensic tests showed the three were raped and then strangled with a rope.". I hope this would help denounce the killings of innocent people working for the betterment of the desitutes. Rest Allah knows the best.

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 June 2005 at 10:17am

Ya akhi el aziz Kim has a 124% valid point. The US spin about saving the Afghan women did appeal to the perpetually "enslaved to 3rd class hard labour" women in the west.

Now, please, reckognise the real worth of our most beloved President. He was tricked to work for Cheveron by Ramzay Khalilzad and just for a few hours and once only. He is actually a classic Burger cook - owned a buger bar in the US. A German reporter has his photos in a chef's hat!!



Posted By: JulAsif
Date Posted: 06 July 2005 at 1:44pm

To UmTayyab,

I really hope I just misread your post.  It sounded as though you thought AID RELIEF WORKERS got what they deserved by being RAPED and violently MURDERED???  You assume they are "spies and mischief makers", but how do you know they were not simply trying to fullfill their duty to Allah by helping others???  I am absolutely REPULSED that a fellow muslim would feel this way, let alone say it out loud.  I know the feminist movements have gotten way out of hand, but these were AID WORKERS!!  Risking their lives to help provide food, medical care, and other basic necessities which we are OBLIGATED to do as muslims.  How could you be such a cold, heartless woman?  All I can do is HOPE that when you said "women who flaunt the Sharia" that you were speaking generally, and not about these individual women.



Posted By: aisha
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:24am
um tayyab, i believe what you say go girl!!!!!!!!!sharia is there for a reason.

-------------
aisha


Posted By: JulAsif
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:45am
I guess I'm just really not sure what this thread has to do with Sharia.  Unless, of course, you mean that those "muslim" men who RAPED and MURDERED a woman should be executed...yep, I'm right there with you! 


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by kim!

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Salam All,

One interesting thing is ignorance of the western population about socio-cultural background of area near and around Afghanistan. Among others, a typical way of living style in that region is totally different than they can even imagine it to be. Whatever they know is through what media tell them. Through this source, they often blame Taliban government of supressing the rights of women, but it would be more interesting to know the state of these rights before (through history) and after Taliban (the Karazi government). Do we find any change? If not, then is it legitimate to blame Taliban (may be for many other things, however) for all those social problems that existed before them and continued in their own tenure and is still prevalent in their society. Another interesting evidence to look upon for the social injustices/practices against women is the attached north western area of Pakistan where Taliban never ruled. The state of women in this part of Pakistan is the same (if not worst) than in the most part of Afghanistan. Though, Taliban might have added fuel to the fire, however, their practices were not very unfamiliar to their subjects.

I hope this would provide some alternate view for understanding the situation of Afghanistan and its neigbouring area. 

At least a few of us out here in the wild West are aware of this and we make sure we spread the word to people - that it's not just the Taliban who have been repressing the Afghan women. I explain that women have had to wear burkhas for a LONG time outside of the cities, because the Northern Alliance guys abuse women too. Then I go on to tell them about the invasion of the Russians and how the Taliban were friends of and funded and trained by the US, etc, etc.

It's amazing to see some people's reactions. Specially when you explain it to Americans face to face.

Kim...



You can explain all you want face to face.  These discussions don't lend themselves well to bipolar thinking.  Somehow, you think it is an easy thing to conduct geo-politics? [I'm referring here to the US position in the 80s visa vi the Russian invasion of Afghanistan.]  Or that you have all the answers...oh, yeah, we believe that as our faces drop in stunned amazement of all your perfect knowledge and at our perfect stupidity in comparison..please..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: kim!
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 9:32am
Oh yes, and I'm SO PERFECT.

Sorry dude - if you want the rest of the world to stop thinking that people in your country are so bloody stupid, trying getting the 27 people who vote to vote for a president who has been to other countries APART from Canada and who can locate some other countries without prompting and maybe even speak another language AND demonstrate some education.

Oh. And try to see if these are the sorts of people you can get onto the American television programs that get sent overseas. (Feel free to shoot people like Ricky Lake, if you like, then maybe all the "people" on shows like hers will go back to their trailer homes and STAY there. Never, ever to emerge)

Then maybe we might not have such a weird perspective of your people.

And maybe try to educate people a bit more - then when we scummy foreignors tell them a bit about history they won't seem quite so amazed and surprised as they usually are...

Kim...


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by kim!

Oh yes, and I'm SO PERFECT.

Sorry dude - if you want the rest of the world to stop thinking that people in your country are so bloody stupid,

B: People don't think that about the US.  Some people may be furious at the US, or vociferously disagree, but most don't think her stupid..that's my horse sense..

Oh. And try to see if these are the sorts of people you can get onto the American television programs that get sent overseas. (Feel free to shoot people like Ricky Lake, if you like, then maybe all the "people" on shows like hers will go back to their trailer homes and STAY there. Never, ever to emerge)

B: Oh, this is your view of the US - the liberal US entertainment industry?  OK, so you're calling the US liberals/entertainers stupid...well, why didn't you clarify?

And maybe try to educate people a bit more - then when we scummy foreignors tell them a bit about history they won't seem quite so amazed and surprised as they usually are...

B: So great Kim, you've got all these "solutions" for educating the imbecilic Americans - how about turning your gaze in another direction and solving problems there, too?  Let's start with Kisumu, Kenya...what would you recommend, oh wise one?



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: kim!
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:12am

In all honesty, I know you're not all stupid and I know some of your television isn't complete sh*te...but I wish we had more evidence of it over here. I'm so sick of the rubbish we get over here.

 

Mind you, I'm sick of Australian rubbish, too.

Kim...



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by kim!

In all honesty, I know you're not all stupid and I know some of your television isn't complete sh*te...but I wish we had more evidence of it over here. I'm so sick of the rubbish we get over here.

 

Mind you, I'm sick of Australian rubbish, too.

Kim...


"In all honesty, I know you're not all stupid..."
As they say, "Thanks - I think..."


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 10:49pm

Originally posted by b95000

You can explain all you want face to face.  These discussions don't lend themselves well to bipolar thinking.  Somehow, you think it is an easy thing to conduct geo-politics? [I'm referring here to the US position in the 80s visa vi the Russian invasion of Afghanistan.]  Or that you have all the answers...oh, yeah, we believe that as our faces drop in stunned amazement of all your perfect knowledge and at our perfect stupidity in comparison..please..
 

Brother, as I see it, its your own comments that sounds like "speechless" to the arguments presented. If you have any other view, it would be more prudent to be presented than simply turning away from it with such comments. Isn't it?



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 2:49pm
I am not "speechless" when it comes to presenting my argument about Afghanistan.  Just because the US and others supported the indiginous populations against Russia in the 1980s (which never handed control back to people of goodwill, in which elections and Constitutions resulted) doesn't mean that what happened in 2002 was without cause and without basis.  That is what I mean by complexities of geo-politics and why that topic doesn't lend itself easily to bipolar or simplistic thinking..

It is clear that Afghanistan is better and better off today than under the horrors of the Taliban..

“The crew also acquired secretly-filmed footage of a public execution in a football stadium financed by the West.

The footage shows a veiled woman dragged to the centre of the pitch, and forced to kneel facing the goal posts.

She is shot dead to the cheers of the watching crowds.”


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 4:48pm
Though not to support any regime, but fact remains "It is clear that Afghanistan is better and better off today than under the horrors of the Taliban..
" was never the objective of american forces. Isn't it? Hence, it would be naive to consider such arguments for invasion in an independant country. Can similar arguments of "against rogue" regimes be applied for invasions in those countries be applied? Such as Cuba, N. Korea or for that matter Libya or Iran and many more? I don't think so.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 19 August 2005 at 3:40pm
I think whether nation building was the fomenting, straw that broke the camels back and compelled action (9/11 slaughter was surely that) or not, that is the resultant destiny of where we're all headed there (as a world community.) As such, it's instructive to ask the question of whether they're better off, since people are critical of the now.  But one must ask, what about the before now?  That's only fair and intellectually rigorous.

It's interesting that you call Afghanistan 'independent' when they were under the thumbs of groups like Taliban and AQ - how is that independent?

I agree with you that special cirumstances coalesced around the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq.


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 22 September 2005 at 2:30pm

Fact remains that end can't justify the means. Also, whatever someone may call about the government of a country, question would remain open as what authority any outside country has, without the consent of UN,  to invade any other country on the world map. May it be Afghanistan, where no UN was involved at all, or be it Iraq, where totally false premise was used to misguide (intentionally or unintentionally) the whole world. Even after the false premise for Iraq now so open, arrogantly overstaying on that land, can only be viewed as law of Jungle where aggressors are considered to have law of "might is right".



Posted By: kim!
Date Posted: 22 September 2005 at 10:48pm

You know, it has just this minute occured to me that if the US had let Russia overrun Afghanistan unhindered, without inventing and training the Taliban, etc, Afghanistan might _just_ be free of the influence of both Russia AND the US because of the fall of Communism in 1989-90.

Just like all those other former Soviet States! Sure, they might be poor, but I wonder what curcumstances would be like today?

Can the locals organise an Orange Revolution (ie: From WITHIN!) for Afghanistan, do you think?

Kim...



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 26 September 2005 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by kim!

You know, it has just this minute occured to me that if the US had let Russia overrun Afghanistan unhindered, without inventing and training the Taliban, etc, Afghanistan might _just_ be free of the influence of both Russia AND the US because of the fall of Communism in 1989-90.

Just like all those other former Soviet States! Sure, they might be poor, but I wonder what curcumstances would be like today?

Can the locals organise an Orange Revolution (ie: From WITHIN!) for Afghanistan, do you think?

Kim...



12 1/2 million voters isn't enough for you?  You want more people to die?  How perverse is that?  These people have been at war for 30 years but you want some more, hey?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 27 September 2005 at 9:32am

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report  http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html - http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

 



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 03 October 2005 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report  http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html - http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

 


Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle, then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 04 October 2005 at 10:10am
Originally posted by b95000

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report  http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html - http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

 


Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

Viewing things from one eye is not a scholarly thing for most except few who want to live in dillusions.

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue ......

Oh, so you mean security in Afghanistan is still a problem even now? Hmm!! Do you have any clue as who else could be involved other than few remanants of Talibans? My dear, the same warlords are in power and the same old routine is in vogue. Nothing much has changed in that ill fated country except what your monocule would like to show you, though now the allied forces are in control.

........and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...

Though I clearly don't support any regime, the fact is now the same people are in the delima of facing death for not growing Poppy for their warlords. The question remains what the allied forces doing to stop this cultivation. Now they must not have any excuse of ignoring it and not leaving it for others to do it.

but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle,........

What is this has to do with poppy crop? Hmm!! My brother is apt in congulmerating everything in the name of women's rights etc.

......... then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

What trade off with freedom? You mean no one knows who is growing this poppy crop and its real hard for the government to accuse them without evidence of doubt? I don't think this is the case. Everyone knows who are the culprits, but no one wants to displease the warlords in the "tradeoff" that they may turn to Taliban. It is this tradeoff that allies are selling the Opimum for the loyalities of these warlords.


Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...

I hope, if nothing else, one would like change his monocule in the light of the above facts of life in the "liberated" Afghanistan. 



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 04 October 2005 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by b95000

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report  http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html - http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

 


Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

Viewing things from one eye is not a scholarly thing for most except few who want to live in dillusions.

B: You're looking yourself in the mirror as you say this, right?

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue ......

Oh, so you mean security in Afghanistan is still a problem even now? Hmm!! Do you have any clue as who else could be involved other than few remanants of Talibans? My dear, the same warlords are in power and the same old routine is in vogue. Nothing much has changed in that ill fated country except what your monocule would like to show you, though now the allied forces are in control.

B: Nothing much has changed?  Can that possibly be true when 12 MILLION people voted including 4 million women in the first election and who knows, 10 million in the second election - the first elections in 30 years...and yet, you opine, with eyes wide shut, that 'nothing much has changed.'  I see...thanks for proving your case to us..thanks for giving things a slight, little tiny bit of the time that has just passed underneath the warlords feet for things to actually and permanently change...they will change but no thanks to naysayers and do nothings like yourself, with all due respect.

........and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...

Though I clearly don't support any regime, the fact is now the same people are in the delima of facing death for not growing Poppy for their warlords.

B: This will change, sometimes more slowly than we all would like, but it will change...slowly but surely and sometimes more quickly.  But it won't change is you demand it to change without acknowledging progress in other areas.  Simply quoting stats of the poppy trade at this stage means nothing other than that the poppy growing is still an issue...it is an issue that all parties are well aware of - as is the issue of warlords...but give things what, a decade, you cannot demand perfection after 3 years...this is unreasonable, no?  And begin to be fair - mention that it is a good thing to have 12 million people involved in the process...won't you?

but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle,........

What is this has to do with poppy crop? Hmm!! My brother is apt in congulmerating everything in the name of women's rights etc.

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing down...how tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?

......... then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

What trade off with freedom? You mean no one knows who is growing this poppy crop and its real hard for the government to accuse them without evidence of doubt? I don't think this is the case. Everyone knows who are the culprits, but no one wants to displease the warlords in the "tradeoff" that they may turn to Taliban. It is this tradeoff that allies are selling the Opimum for the loyalities of these warlords.

B: We are talking about subtleties here and you are saying these things are obvious and plain.  The rule of law is much harder to establish than either extreme of legalized terror (Taliban) or anarchy (warlords)...those are easy paths...the subtle path is to establish a rule of law that honors all members of a society and leaves them solutions to their problems that don't include shooting people's brains out..


Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...

I hope, if nothing else, one would like change his monocule in the light of the above facts of life in the "liberated" Afghanistan. 



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 09 October 2005 at 8:56pm

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing down...how tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?
 

Ok brother, let this be the issue as you wish to discuss. You have described that Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder. Let us analyse it through little more rationality than emotionally (keeping the 9/11 factor away).

So, as far as their government is concerned, though they had all the bad things that they did that we all (including my self) accuse them of, but one thing that must be admitted is, that their government really implemented the law, without any political baisness etc. One can ofcourse lable this law to any kind of "draconion" law etc, but remember that its their own law that we must pay respect to any independant country as per norms of international mutual respect. No second country has any right to put their nose into their internal laws. Though we can critize them but we can't physically involve in their business to change their law untill or unless they themselves want to change it. Isn't it the ABC of democracy that we indebted to teach everyone. So, once you say they ruled with "intimidation, fear, and murder", I think, we are forgetting about our ABC of this lesson. Secondly, I don't know how can one call the implementation of law as "Murder" except through emotional rhetorics that our media has trumpted in our ears?

Now, coming to your allusion to the polls and hence freedom etc. Though, future of these events would essentially depend upon how long the allied forces are willing to stay "temporarily" over there (if not permanently), but the fact remain that history shows that "democracy" can't be implanted from outside but realised from within the society. Suffice is to know that barring few big cities of Afghanistan, or more specifically except the capital Kabul, there is hardly any place where people are yet ready to accept this concept.

As you rightly pointed out that a process of change of society can't be realised immediately, I would extend this to say that it takes centuries to change, but that too, provided the society itself want a change. Otherwise all implanted concepts would be rejected sooner the dose of chemotherapy (allied forces) is removed. I hope and wish that USA and its allies are not planning for the permanant occupation of the land. Are we? Are we in the making of yet another "Gotanamo bay" in Afghanistan? I don't think so. So, what is our purpose to over stay in that country? Where is our main objective to capture the head of the terrorist gone? In reality, it has gone to nowhere. Yes, all our efforst are to build strong Afghanistan, but was that really our main objective? I don't think so. If we couldn't maintain the law and order situation, just because we are compromising on our values, then its only futile to show the world as what temporary progress the country is making. Ground facts remain that the poor people of that country were suffering from the atrocities of their warlords, and they are still doing so. You point toward the future, but don't estimate how far this future is? Are you talking of few years (a very improbable picture), or of few decades or of few centuries (most likely situation)? Yet, lets hope for the best.

 

 



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 27 October 2005 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing down...how tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?
 

Ok brother, let this be the issue as you wish to discuss. You have described that Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder. Let us analyse it through little more rationality than emotionally (keeping the 9/11 factor away).

So, as far as their government is concerned, though they had all the bad things that they did that we all (including my self) accuse them of, but one thing that must be admitted is, that their government really implemented the law, without any political baisness etc. One can ofcourse lable this law to any kind of "draconion" law etc, but remember that its their own law that we must pay respect to any independant country as per norms of international mutual respect.

B: That's not the truth brother.  The killing and murdering and maiming of others is not something that we need to respect!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1410061.stm


 No second country has any right to put their nose into their internal laws. Though we can critize them but we can't physically involve in their business to change their law untill or unless they themselves want to change it.

B: You're assuming that the Taliban were benign to those outside its borders (however heinous and horrible and murderous, abusive and violent they were to their own people)...I realize earlier that you mentioned 9/11 aside - but that is IMPOSSIBLE - it is part of reality and AQ is part of reality and the harboring of AQ naturally involved the whole world in Afghanistan's internal affairs as AQ had brutally slaughtered hundreds of innocent Africans in Dar al Salaam and Nairobi in '98 and '99..


Isn't it the ABC of democracy that we indebted to teach everyone. So, once you say they ruled with "intimidation, fear, and murder", I think, we are forgetting about our ABC of this lesson. Secondly, I don't know how can one call the implementation of law as "Murder" except through emotional rhetorics that our media has trumpted in our ears?

B: Are you saying they didn't murder people in open stadiums when they've been filmed doing so?  Don't you realize that murderous regimes take charge of countries sometimes - have we not learned from the Germans and the Russians these lessons?  There is no respecting that and why are you bringing up democracy in reference to the Taliban anyhow??  They're just absolutely diametrically opposite from democracy!

Now, coming to your allusion to the polls and hence freedom etc. Though, future of these events would essentially depend upon how long the allied forces are willing to stay "temporarily" over there (if not permanently), but the fact remain that history shows that "democracy" can't be implanted from outside but realised from within the society. Suffice is to know that barring few big cities of Afghanistan, or more specifically except the capital Kabul, there is hardly any place where people are yet ready to accept this concept.

B: And yet millions voted - what more than 20 million there and more close to 20 million in Iraq...millions are voting...and 25% of Afghanistan's loya jirga, or grand assembly, will be women...how can this not be progress and steps toward freedom and democracy and rule by the people as opposed to warlords...I realize that warlords are clinging on - but how long can they cling on with people voting and involved and moving into the 21st Century?  You say that people aren't willing to accept this - but what has been the alternative?  30 years war?  Are they willing to accept that?

As you rightly pointed out that a process of change of society can't be realised immediately, I would extend this to say that it takes centuries to change, but that too, provided the society itself want a change. Otherwise all implanted concepts would be rejected sooner the dose of chemotherapy (allied forces) is removed. I hope and wish that USA and its allies are not planning for the permanant occupation of the land. Are we? Are we in the making of yet another "Gotanamo bay" in Afghanistan? I don't think so. So, what is our purpose to over stay in that country? Where is our main objective to capture the head of the terrorist gone? In reality, it has gone to nowhere. Yes, all our efforst are to build strong Afghanistan, but was that really our main objective? I don't think so.

B: Can't you see that to have democracies rather than these unstable brutal "theocracies" is in itself achieving victory over terrorism...to have people by the 10s of millions voting in the Middle East - having their voices heard, building their countries, having a purpose in their lives besides blowing themselves up into some 'crusader' or worse some innocent person that will be broadcast (maybe and increasingly less likely) across some 'crusaders' TV set is just plain VICTORY in these matters...do you disagree that to infuse people groups and nations with purpose is not a successful strategy in the multi-pronged war against terrorism, battle for freedom and war against poverty?


If we couldn't maintain the law and order situation, just because we are compromising on our values, then its only futile to show the world as what temporary progress the country is making.

B: You say it's temporary - but it need not be temporary..to some extent it's in the hands of the Afghanis and Iraqis to decide and that is where it should be..

Ground facts remain that the poor people of that country were suffering from the atrocities of their warlords, and they are still doing so.

As you've pointed out, things are not utterly transformed in one instant in time...it will take time for all areas to improve...but there is hope now and much more involvement and the possibility of much more future involvement...Afghanis are proud people, to be sure and they will rise to this challenge...

You point toward the future, but don't estimate how far this future is? Are you talking of few years (a very improbable picture), or of few decades or of few centuries (most likely situation)? Yet, lets hope for the best.

You are correct - it may well take a very long time for the greatest of changes - complete equity and peace...but that does not mean we cannot all work toward that end together and with the heart of God in mind to that end..

 

 



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 10:02am

O my dear brother b95000 thanks for your reply though without replacing monocle. There is a difference of understanding when killing is "Murder" and when killing is "Punishment", I wish I didn't have to teach it to my brothers. If the killing is not according to law, it is simply a murder, otherwise its a "punishment". Kindly make a note of it. Therefore your reference to website detailing killings in the staduium etc is just what media made it appear as "Murders" but according to the witnesses present their, it was "Punishment".

Now coming to your understanding of imported democracy when you say

Originally posted by b95000

...I realize that warlords are clinging on - but how long can they cling on with people voting and involved and moving into the 21st Century?  You say that people aren't willing to accept this - but what has been the alternative?  30 years war?  Are they willing to accept that?
Though I don't want to go into the debate of pros and cons of democracy, but suffice is to ask is that the major objective for US forces there?

..Afghanis are proud people, to be sure and they will rise to this challenge...
Yes, ofcourse, and their pride is in their own freedom to act and not through the influence of occupation. Our foremost purpose to be there is to go after the terrorists and maintain law and order situation but not to compromise on them. Are we making any substantial progress or simply trying to make substantial presence over there, possibly for ever. On the more, recent news about secret CIA interrogation cells spread all over the world, beside the incidents of jail abuses, is yet another issue of self reflections as a whole nation than teaching others how to vote? Prioritize yourself.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 5:35pm
Priorities, huh brother?

Who decides when shooting a woman in the head in a Stadium is NOT murder?  Does Sharia speak to such a heinous public killing or give guidelines for how to punish/kill someone?  I would say this should be a priority - since you brought it up and since some hear advocate sharia law for certain national legal systems (which ones I'm not sure since there are no 100% Muslim countries.)

But perhaps the esoteria of sterilized word choices [punishment or murder] regarding shooting a woman in the head in front of a crowd is just simple justice?...when the US does any sort of killing of killers - people scream and yell about illegal and immoral...so how can you have it both ways - by the way?

Who gets to decide?  I guess, brother, in your view, the 1.3 B (20%) out of 6.5 Billion in the world, get to decide what is moral and not...

The rest be damned and just don't get in the way of the morality police?  And certainly do NOT get caught and do NOT get punished...Wow, with such power over life and death I sure hope the 'morality police' never get corrupt...

[moderator edited]

comparing Islam and shariah law to saddam hussein is not acceptable as well as Insulting the Islamic faith in general.

This is your second warning.




-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: FeistyNomad
Date Posted: 07 December 2005 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by UmTayyab

I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them.

I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

And they call me feisty!

Mabrooks on such a passionate post.

Perhaps I should frequent this site more often.

 




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