Print Page | Close Window

Interest not haram?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9068
Printed Date: 21 October 2014 at 5:23am


Topic: Interest not haram?
Posted By: Ghazzali
Subject: Interest not haram?
Date Posted: 06 April 2007 at 3:59pm
Assalamualikum. Well I came across this piece while searching on different topics on interest and it has baffled me to say the least. Here are some " progressive muslims" who think that

The Quran prohibits interest charged to the poor and disadvantaged, not interest per se.

The URL is

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/economy/econsystem.htm - http://www.free-minds.org/articles/economy/econsystem.htm  



-------------
The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.



Replies:
Posted By: mohammad
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 12:34am

Bro. Ghazzali Allah Almighty strictly prohibited in any shape of interest in any way refer to Qurain Ch # 2 (Surrah Baqra) verse 275, whereas Allah warned those who eat rubbah (interest) surely their station will be in the hell hereinafter.

Regarding of your this statement that some progressive Muslim are stating that from poor interest is forbidden but not others, they are just create the reasoning to justify their prohibited  action. May Allah Almighty show us in the right path with the right understandning of Qurain.

 



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 9:39am
Bi ismillahir rahanir raheem

These progressive muslims are basicaly unqualified muslims who are coming up with there own laws becouse they have a myopic view of islam.

The reason why we have things like the four madhhabs and the science of usul al fiqh is so people dont come along and invent there own rules, it insures there is a methodology and therefore a scientific method one has to follow which insures integrity and correctness in islamic law.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Ghazzali
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 3:28pm
Right said friends.

-------------
The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Ghazzali

The Quran prohibits interest charged to the poor and disadvantaged, not interest per se.


When you think about it, the idea that you must be able to masquerade a loan contract into an other type of agreement, makes sense from an economical and social point of view.

Take for example the situation of a mortgage. You have no sufficient savings to buy a house. You still need to live somewhere. What's the alternative? You rent a place to stay.

What if you rent that place for a higher rental fee, but you can stop paying rent after 20 years? After those 20 years, the owner gives you the house, as a gift.

Nothing necessarily unlawful there. Rental contracts are necessarily lawful (you must stay somewhere). Gifts are lawful (giving a house to someone who has no house).

Of course, it is absolutely possible to see such arrangement as a mortgage, and calculate the interest actually charged. The fact that an alternative unlawful representation of a lawful representation exists, may not make the lawful representation necessarily unlawful.

The more the arrangement really looks like a rental contract + gift, the more the lawfulness of the arrangement can be argued, especially if your inability to pay back the loan somehow also seriously fires back at the one who extends the loan.

Lending amounts to someone who cannot or can barely pay back, is socially abusive. Further, the more the consequences of not paying back the loan are the same as the consequences of not paying the rent, the more socially beneficial the contract.

In my impression, it is difficult to impossible to masquarade socially undesirable loan contracts into something lawful.

For example, what kind of lawful representation can you give to the situation in which someone goes on a shopping binge with his credit card, fails to pay the balance at the end of the month, and sees that balance turned into a loan, for which (usurious) interest is charged? It is unlikely that there is a lawful representation for this type of contract, and good so, because the ability to run up credit card debts is a social evil.

Many poor nation governments are deeply endebted to the World Bank, the IMF, American banks, and the US Treasury.

If you look at how they contracted the debt, you see that this is usually done in a very abusive way.

For example, the government of Kenya borrows 100 million USD to build a hospital that is actually worth 6 million USD, kicks back 7 million USD to the Keynian minister who signs the contract, and leaves 87 million USD as profit to the American company that will build the hospital, which kicks back 15 million USD to the American politician who made the arrangements on their side. The Kenyan government will need to levvy 350 million USD in taxes at gunpoint on its poor farmers to pay back interest and principal over the next 30 years.

Ok. How can we prevent this arrangement? Of course, the religious rule that charging interest is unlawful, is already very helpful.

Can they masquarade this arrangement into something else? Yes, but it will invariably involve the notion that the hospital remains property of the US company or the World Bank or another lender. If the Kenyans cannot keep paying, they will have to cancel the contract, and the lender will have to sell the hospital after a few years on the open market, where it will fetch the 3 million dollars that it is still worth, and lose the value of the remainder of the loan. As long as the Kenyan inability to pay, fires back at the lender, the masquaraded agreement is socially beneficial.

My impression is that socially beneficial loan contracts can somehow be masquaraded or represented as lawful contracts, while socially damaging loan contracts cannot.

Therefore, I believe that the religious rule that says that charging interest is unlawful, is a very good thing for the poor.



Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 12:11am
Originally posted by mohammad

Regarding of your this statement that some progressive Muslim are stating that from poor interest is forbidden but not others, they are just create the reasoning to justify their prohibited  action.

If a bank makes whatever contract to lend you money to buy a car (you may not be able to afford), the borrower should always be able to terminate the contract by handing in the car. Case closed for the borrower. If the contract was somehow some kind of scam, the lender is now in trouble, and that is exactly how it should be.

This effect is indeed obtained by outlawing interest. It keeps the banks in check. The contract must indeed be something else than just lending money against interest.

How will the bank react? They will ask you to make an important deposit before entering the rental (loan) contract, to cover the potential loss incurred if you decide to hand in the car. So, they will necessarily force you to save, before borrowing.

If the bank lends money for business, and things go wrong, they will end up with (worthless) shares in the (failed) business. The borrower comes clean by handing over these shares, since the contract will probably be to buy shares in your business and resell them at a fixed but higher share price. To buy and to sell back something is probably lawful, even if an alternative representation of the deal is able to associate a particular interest rate charged for the deal.



Posted By: Ghazzali
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 1:57pm

Assalamualikum. yes, to buy and sell is halal, but see, the reason for outlawing interest was to lessen the burden on the borrower. What islamic banks are doing is that they are selling the object at a higher market price to the borrower. So this is putting the same burden on the borrower for which interest on loan was outlawed. So, it puts a big question mark on islamic banking as well.

And about the article in the site, they do have some valid points. Especially the time value of money.



-------------
The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:08pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Inflation is a purely invented concept to steal money from people who do not wish to spend but rather save.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Inflation is a purely invented concept to steal money from people who do not wish to spend but rather save.


Rami; you must be kidding by making such a statement! It is perfectly safe to say almost anything in the internet discussion cuz there are no consequences for saying what ever comes to mind here.

I have a question , a house which cost say $300,000 10 years ago, today goes for a million dollars in my neighborhood.
And that ratio practically applies to every durable thing you go out to buy.Apply your hypothesis and try to make some sense! If  I had  been saving to buy at the 10  years past  prices, i.e., 300K where am I going get my deal? What gives?



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 12:02am
Originally posted by mohammad

Bro. Ghazzali Allah Almighty strictly prohibited in any shape of interest in any way refer to Qurain Ch # 2 (Surrah Baqra) verse 275, whereas Allah warned those who eat rubbah (interest) surely their station will be in the hell hereinafter.

Regarding of your this statement that some progressive Muslim are stating that from poor interest is forbidden but not others, they are just create the reasoning to justify their prohibited  action. May Allah Almighty show us in the right path with the right understandning of Qurain.

 


Bro I think the people in Pakistan are more inclined to live off the interest based schemes euphemistically calling it profits. I have heard these schemes were paying some of the highest interests (10+%)in the world cuz there was so much inflation, with no real manufacturing, too much paper money and chasing too few durabale goods. With no responsible government printing the paper money without any oversight let the value of the currency go down say in last 30 years from 5 rupees to dollar what is now 60 rupees. The rich are least bothered with this while poor man's  goose is cooked.
I don't think anybody plans to live off the interest income in the US , which is paltry by comparison.
How does the interest free banking work/ who pays for the rent and salaries in the market economy?

 


-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 1:04am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I have a question , a house which cost say $300,000 10 years ago, today goes for a million dollars in my neighborhood. And that ratio practically applies to every durable thing you go out to buy.

If housing gets increasingly expensive in certain areas, that is usually the result of other areas getting downtrodden with crime, prostitution, bad schools, et cetera. So, the pressure increases on the remaining areas, until they become bad too.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 1:31am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Rami; you must be kidding by making such a statement! It is perfectly safe to say almost anything in the internet discussion cuz there are no consequences for saying what ever comes to mind here.

What do you know about the history of the monetary system that has been forced on people world wide in the last century alone, after you learn something then be certain of your self not before.

I have a question , a house which cost say $300,000 10 years ago, today goes for a million dollars in my neighborhood.
And that ratio practically applies to every durable thing you go out to buy.Apply your hypothesis and try to make some sense! If  I had  been saving to buy at the 10  years past  prices, i.e., 300K where am I going get my deal? What gives?

in a natural maket prices fluctuate becouse of supply and demand. You are not looking beyond the monetary system that is in front of your face, ask your grandfather if he is old enough or great grandfather if he is still alive about inflation and the idea of money loosing value due to time.

An utterly ridiculous concept that people have come to accept as something normal in life.

Did you know, since your an American, that there is no explicit law in America requiring a person to pay taxes but yet the entire American population does so simply because there told to.

If you dont believe me quote me the law requiring you to do so.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 2:55am
Originally posted by rami

in a natural maket prices fluctuate becouse of supply and demand.

The demand in housing market is strongly influenced by the desire NOT to live amongst certain people, and the desire NOT to send your kids to the same school as certain people.

I always thought that the motivation was for rich people not to have to live with poor people, because that is what it looks like in Europe and the US.

But then I saw that rich people live amongst poor people in Southeast Asia. The truth is that the poor in Southeast Asia may be dirt poor, but they are not morally depraved. Rich and poor have similar moral values, with the poor actually more conservative in many aspects than the rich. So, the rich have more of an interest in avoiding the other rich than the avoiding the poor. As a result, poor and rich live mixed together in Southeast Asia.

This observation leads me to believe that crime, prostitution and substance abuse are absolutely NOT related to poverty. In my impression, they are much more related to family breakdown, than anything else.

Poor neighbourhoods concentrate a disproportionate number of broken families, because family breakdown does often lead to poverty. That is why poor neighbourhoods are so much affected by crime in the West.

So, the strategy of fleeing the poor neighbourhoods in Europe or in the US, is a failing one. It does temporarily drive up prices in neighbourhoods less affected by crime, and therefore favoured by the rich, but family breakdown affects all social classes. Therefore, the rich neighbourhoods will inevitably generate their own crime, and soon become bad too.

I think the house prices in rich neighbourhoods will still go up for a while, but will lose the underlying reason for their attractiveness, and then start losing value.

For the same reason, gated condominia are bound to fail. The rich are trying to flee into those, but sooner or later, crime will emerge from within.

In the long run, it is impossible to flee crime by moving neighbourhood. You have to flee to a country where the problem of family breakdown is under control. That means: outside the West, and outside the reach of the western government policies that are the cause for family breakdown.



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 9:03pm

Originally posted by Rami

What do you know about the history of the monetary system that has been forced on people world wide in the last century alone, after you learn something then be certain of your self not before.

 I donít get your smart-alecky remark, may be you are belly aching about the dollar hegemony.  I donít know I should laugh or feel sorry for your know it all attitude.

All I know is that the winner of the WWII had prerogative to setup a monetary system to meet the needs of the time and pace of industrialization of the capitalist nation, necessity was the mother. Now lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then US is going through de-industrialization, likes of Googles are worth more than the smoke stacks industries. Some new paradigm will take place what ever will be, will be

 

Originally posted by Rami

in a natural maket prices fluctuate becouse of supply and demand. You are not looking beyond the monetary system that is in front of your face, ask your grandfather if he is old enough or great grandfather if he is still alive about inflation and the idea of money loosing value due to time.
An utterly ridiculous concept that people have come to accept as something normal in life. .

The supply and demand thing is moot point here for me, I seen enough when I was in  business. I have retired I will think about this stuff once a while.

Our head honcho has lost his marbles and blowing tons of borrowed money like drunken sailor in hell hole called Iraq.

 Wars have their ways of rewarding the winner or penalizing the loser; WWII gave the US unprecedented economic hegemony, wrong policies and Vietnam war gave the US Nixon Shock and hyper inflation ruined the Carter Presidency.

And yes my great grand father time saw the destruction of a Muslim Empire due to wrong economic industrial policies or lack there off. When you donít produce something valuable you lose the value of your money and nobody wants to work for you and people jump ship.

Does any justification for the Diaspora of Muslims come to your mind?

It is the world which lines up for the dollars offering cheap products and services. Who is forcing a communist country like China lending billions of dollars it earned producing low cost products back to the US? Though I dread the day if and when this symbiotic relationship goes sour!

Originally posted by Rami

Did you know, since your an American, that there is no explicit law in America requiring a person to pay taxes but yet the entire American population does so simply because there told to.

If you donít believe me quote me the law requiring you to do so. .

And finally I didnít expect you to be conspiracy monger cuz you have been a moderator.

You do bring some valuable information about Islamic resources here but by stating this you have utterly disappointed me. I am sorry to say that:

 

BTW here is the 16th  amendment to the Constitution of the United States which authorized the Congress to legislate the tax code:

 

AMENDMENT XVI

Passed by Congress July 2, 1909. Ratified February 3, 1913.

Note: Article I, section 9, of the Constitution was modified by amendment 16.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.



Conspiracy theories and allegations

The IRS is often featured in various conspiracy theories. One of the prominent allegation of IRS's insidious conduct is the the movie America: From Freedom to Fascism, directed by Libertarian filmmaker Aaron Russo, that explores the possible plot making United States to become a police state which IRS is allegedly taking part.




-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 19 April 2007 at 2:45am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

 I donít know I should laugh or feel sorry for your know it all attitude.

I dont know much but in some places a little knowledge seems like a lot.

All I know is that the winner of the WWII had prerogative to setup a monetary system to meet the needs of the time and pace of industrialization of the capitalist nation, necessity was the mother.

Generally speaking this attitude sickens me when i see it in people, just becouse they can do what they like does not mean what they do is right and even more importantly does not make following and accepting them permissible with Allah.

Rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] said muslims would follow westerners to the extent that if they went down a lizard hole muslims would follow after them.

The weakest form of faith is to recognise a thing is wrong!

When you donít produce something valuable you lose the value of your money and nobody wants to work for you and people jump ship.

This principle only works with paper money not in a gold/material based monetary system. the least you can do is look into the old monetary system and see why this paper note system is absolutely haram by Islamic standards.

Does any justification for the Diaspora of Muslims come to your mind?

Lack of Iman, muslims have wealth just no one to invest it correctly.

And finally I didnít expect you to be conspiracy monger cuz you have been a moderator.

You do bring some valuable information about Islamic resources here but by stating this you have utterly disappointed me. I am sorry to say that:

This is just as ignorant as saying no one on this earth conspires to do anything, i think yours is the more ridiculous proposition.

One of the prominent allegation of
IRS's insidious conduct is the the movie America: From Freedom to Fascism

Glad you have seen the material did you actually think about the facts or simply say might is right or
"the winner had the prerogative" to invent something from nothing.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 19 April 2007 at 4:38am

Originally posted by rami


Generally speaking this attitude sickens me when i see it in people, just becouse they can do what they like does not mean what they do is right and even more importantly does not make following and accepting them permissible with Allah.

Rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] said muslims would follow westerners to the extent that if they went down a lizard hole muslims would follow after them.

.

WAS

Could you please quote this hadith or quote and its source or is this actually something you interpreted in your own manner.

A westerner in Rasul'Allah's (pbuh) day would not have been American. The Americans in his day were brown and unknown to him. They were not the people that dominate here now, the descendants of Europeans and every other nationality. The poeple to the west of him were north African.  I do not think "westerner" was the word used in this hadith. It would have been something more like "kafir" or Kufr? Where did you get the literal word "westerner?"

Are we interpreting something possibly to our own whims?

 

I am sorry you show your dislike for Westerners so evidently.

So why do you live in a western type society such as Australia?

And what is your degree in Islamic studies or or you an Imam?

You address others as if you were always in the right and they were always in the wrong.

Please answer me BR Rami, you have already humiliated me in public here in this forum.

I think since you are a student of the sayings of Rasul'Allah (pbuh) that you have read His Last Sermon?

Here is the hadith I know of:

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

So where did you get "westerner" and that does not mean that Western muslims act as the above referenced.

 



-------------
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 19 April 2007 at 5:30am

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

assalaamualaikum

the translated version i have of the hadith from Muslim:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah's Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words)" those before you"? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)?  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=034&translator=2&start=0&number=6448 - #034 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=034&translator=2&start=0&number=6448#6448 - #6448 )

 



-------------
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 19 April 2007 at 5:33am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Could you please quote this hadith or quote and its source or is this actually something you interpreted in your own manner.

Its a very famous hadith if you insist on the actual chain i can insha allah get it for you, but the word westerner in the arabic is literally "people of rome" which has been largely interpreted as Christiandom hence my use of the word westerner to be more accurate since it is this aspect of
Christiandom that the world has chosen to imitate.

I am sorry you show your dislike for Westerners so evidently.

this is your own stereotype not my reality, rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] said hate the deed not the people and i most certainly hate many things about the west as any moral person would.

Imperial racism has forced common words in english to be taboo as they would automatically [without the intention of the author] give an impression of racism this is your history not mine.

And what is your degree in Islamic studies or or you an Imam?

no i am completely unqualified i have said this in the past when asked and have never claimed any authority what so ever.

You address others as if you were always in the right and they were always in the wrong.

Yes i absolutely understand how you can think that but that isnt becouse i think i am always right but becouse of the topics I CHOOSE to reply to. I only reply when i see something obviously wrong being said i rarely chit chat if you like.

Another reason why i may seem so confidant or certain of what i am saying is becouse i hardly ever give my own personnel opinion as apposed to the people i reply to but the legal rulings of the Madhhabs of Islam, so what i quote is a matter of fact and not opinion as the Madhhabs are the only legal authority in the Islamic religion from around 200 ah until the present day.

Mind you this structure is nothing like the christian church but you can only really understand it when you look into the matter.

Please answer me BR Rami, you have already humiliated me in public here in this forum.

Is correcting someone humiliation, maybe in your culture?

I dont mean to insult offend or humiliate sister by allah that has never entered my heart or my mind only to speak the truth of the matter and wherever there is a possible difference of opinion among qualified experts i dont insha allah try to appose a differeing view.

sister Islamic law is not a play thing for us to make up as we like it is difficult and complex matter with many things to consider it rarely is simple, well what is clear is clear but many matters need to be studied.

One last point, you cant be anti nationalist and racist at the same time.

insha allah you understand me better.

seems you added a bit,

So where did you get "westerner" and that does not mean that Western muslims act as the above referenced.

I wasnt referring to western muslims but muslims in general and this is true of the older generation more than anything else.



-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 21 April 2007 at 9:07pm
Rami:
You asked for a law regarding the taxes in US and I gave you the information, the explicit Amendment to the Constitution;  I haven't seen your  acknowledgment as yet
What does that takes, not much on the internet debate!
You have also avoided sister Maryah's issue that is >>> So why do you live in a western type society such as Australia? --it is also part of the same monetary system, isn't it? Isn't it haram to benefit from the haram system?
What system did the Ottoman Caliphate had that left the Arabs so retarded and wandering in the stone age that Anglo Americans became their benefactors or mandators in a hurry?


-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 21 April 2007 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

that left the Arabs so retarded and wandering in the stone age that Anglo Americans became their benefactors or mandators in a hurry?

The Arabs only need to be successful at one thing to win, and can pretty much fail on everything else: maintain the ability to produce a generation that can in turn raise a new generation. If they manage to do that, they will come out as winners, by default. So, if the Arabs only manage to stick to Islam and manage nothing else, they will still win.



Posted By: Abeer23
Date Posted: 22 April 2007 at 4:26am

Jazakillahu khairan sis. Maryah for your post.  There are so many ways to mistakenly attribute a statement to the Prophet (s.a.w) whether it's intentional or unintentional. 

I can just see a prospective or very new Muslim leaving this board quoting to others how the Prophet said "Muslims would follow Westerners!!!!!."  American/European is what the average person surfing the net considers a Westerner.  So, it's good that you clarified the historical context of the Hadith. 

Salaam



Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 22 April 2007 at 8:24am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

So why do you live in a western type society such as Australia?

That strategy is sound. And it is a winning strategy.

Th
e Australians who "hook up" instead of "dating", which was already a lousy substitute for simply getting married, are going to die out sooner or later. If you can't raise a new generation, your successes at anything else don't matter. They will all be in vain. Nobody knows how long this "hooking up" system can last. However, I doubt it will last for long.

Islam is remarkable. It survives, even in the most hostile, western, islamophobic environment that enforces feminist promiscuity on everybody else. Only the Muslims manage to keep their women clean, and ready to produce the next generation. The other ones buy into the crap, and then bye bye: No new generation, or just a bunch of single mothers, whose offspring is going to die out anyway.

Th
e only mistake the Muslims can make, is to believe the crap, abandon Islam, and buy into the feminist promiscuity. If they don't, it is inevitable that they will win.

Really, my friend, the meek shall inherit the earth. Again.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 22 April 2007 at 9:59pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

I can just see a prospective or very new Muslim leaving this board quoting to others how the Prophet said "Muslims would follow Westerners!!!!!."  American/European is what the average person surfing the net considers a Westerner.  So, it's good that you clarified the historical context of the Hadith.

Give me a break, you yourself have just proven my statement exactly. The fact is most scholars interprate this statment in such a way and more so our wahhabi brothers whom i agree with and took this translation from so please dont fear for the "westerners" feelings because eventually "westerners" will come against the entire muslim world to destroy it as they are doing now in Iraq.

There is a clear distinction between a generalisation on a national level ie westerner and indaviduals.

eg; I hate Israel, i dont hate jews, I dont like American scociety I dont hate Americans.

Do you hate What America is doing in Iraq, are its actions separate from its national identity can you blame every American individually for the actions of its rulers?

Sign*Reader

You asked for a law regarding the taxes in US and I gave you the information, the explicit Amendment to the Constitution;  I haven't seen your  acknowledgment as yet

You clearly did not watch the documentary they deal with this so called amendment which is pretty much a back flip on the American constitution which states it must be apportioned if [this is a big if] implemented as well as placing other clear guidelines for such taxes.

It is enough that the American High court affirmed what i have said and people who take there case to the high court have already won on such grounds.

It is amusing to see people support something which clearly by its wording is designed to rob people of there wealth.

""The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.""

Meaning we have the right to rip you off!!

So why do you live in a western type society such as Australia?

why should i live in another country that inst my home.

--it is also part of the same monetary system, isn't it? Isn't it haram to benefit from the haram system?

why dont you ask a shaykh, i know the answer but maybe hearing it from someone else will cause you to lower your defensive wall enough to think.

What system did the Ottoman Caliphate had that left the Arabs so retarded and wandering in the stone age that Anglo Americans became their benefactors or mandators in a hurry?

people are not the criterion of right or wrong.

clearly that isnt a rhetorical question because you yourself dont know, its also ignorant to say the arabs where left retarded becouse they where already retarded enough to side with the kufar of the time against the muslim khalifah.

Many historians and scholars say if they hadnt done so we would still have a khalifah today so let us be clear where the blame is.




-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 22 April 2007 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by crasss

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

So why do you live in a western type society such as Australia?

That strategy is sound. And it is a winning strategy.

Th
e Australians who "hook up" instead of "dating", which was already a lousy substitute for simply getting married, are going to die out sooner or later. If you can't raise a new generation, your successes at anything else don't matter. They will all be in vain. Nobody knows how long this "hooking up" system can last. However, I doubt it will last for long.

Islam is remarkable. It survives, even in the most hostile, western, islamophobic environment that enforces feminist promiscuity on everybody else. Only the Muslims manage to keep their women clean, and ready to produce the next generation. The other ones buy into the crap, and then bye bye: No new generation, or just a bunch of single mothers, whose offspring is going to die out anyway.

Th
e only mistake the Muslims can make, is to believe the crap, abandon Islam, and buy into the feminist promiscuity. If they don't, it is inevitable that they will win.

Really, my friend, the meek shall inherit the earth. Again.


The question was for Rami but any ways!
So you live in Australia too!
Did the East European or the Chinese die out under communism? Nobody dies out like that, quit dreaming the cowardly dreams and try convincing the Muslims go on with the current nightmare



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 22 April 2007 at 11:20pm
Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem

Chinese die out under communism?

Chinese people are the most traditional down to earth mannered people i have met. Communism clearly did not destroy there sense of family and obligation in fact communism wrong as it may be stresses communal solidarity and family values.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Ghazzali
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 2:47pm

Assalamualikum people. Wo wo wo wo....wait a minute. What was the topic about? I appreciate your enthusiastic participation but you people have gone miles away from the topic. It was about an article which gave strong reasons for interest not being haram at this age. I just wanted to know what you people think about the reasons. It started off well, but suddenly rami and sign reader started a brawl. If you people want a discussion on history of islam or why rami is living in Australia or anything, I guess you should have started another topic.

Okay, whatever has happened, has happened. Leave it. Please give your views on the article. Thank you.



-------------
The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I wrote: If you can't raise a new generation, your successes at anything else don't matter. They will all be in vain.
...
try convincing the Muslims go on with the current nightmare

If the Muslims agree to changing one, single thing in Islam, even just a seemingly unimportant detail, they are opening the doors wide open for  the principle of western-style "reform", which simply means: adopting feminist promiscuity and family destruction.

So, if Islam bans interest, "riba", then at this point, Muslims are better off to stick strictly to the rule.

There is simply no scope for any kind of "reform" or "innovation", while the onslaught of western-style feminism and family destruction is ongoing. If any concessions are to be made in Islam at all, they should be delayed until after the western experiment is over.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 23 April 2007 at 9:25pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Allah says in the Quran the Haram and Halal of matters is for him alone.  Any person wishing to change that will take his place in Jahannam.

We are not Christians or Jews to go and change our religion simply becouse some people dont have enough iman to follow there own faith.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 April 2007 at 10:30pm

Originally posted by Ghazzali

Assalamualikum people. Wo wo wo wo....wait a minute. What was the topic about? I appreciate your enthusiastic participation but you people have gone miles away from the topic. It was about an article which gave strong reasons for interest not being haram at this age. I just wanted to know what you people think about the reasons. It started off well, but suddenly rami and sign reader started a brawl. If you people want a discussion on history of islam or why rami is living in Australia or anything, I guess you should have started another topic.

Okay, whatever has happened, has happened. Leave it. Please give your views on the article. Thank you.


Me &  Rami were not altercating on a different subject but the money system in place.

OK back to the article:

I guess the article is written by one of your countryman and he has probably tried  to make a point against the usurious rates charged by the Grameen Bank of  Bangladesh even when it is meeting the needs of poorís entrepreneurial needs to eke out a living. Abdur Rub has a valid proposal if these poor folks are surviving after paying usurious rate why not the regular banks or the philanthropic people setup to break Dr. Yunusís monopoly with no interest loans.

He has used Quraanic references to prove his thesis.

 

His has gone to a great length to differentiate between the interest levied by the central bank versus the usury as defined in the Quraanic verses and done a fairly good job.

 

  What I see the current the monetary system in place, one can belly ache all one wants but it still is based on the system which has gone from gold/silver to paper and now just digital currency. Unless you understand the money model you can not intelligently discuss and get anywhere with your arguments.

 

 The whole world is operating under the fiat currency these days. The amount of wealth ( goods and food produce) created by the mass production system was just astronomical that old system was rendered irrelevant and that really threw a curve ball to the religious thoughts when it came to money management.

 

In this global village, you and I are not even in the picture to make a difference cuz  the market indicators decides and the central bank ups  or lowers the rate for renting of the money to the big banks.

And for a reference the rate in  US was almost zero in late fifties, 19% in early eighties then again 1% two years ago. And you go back and study what the high rate did to the presidency of Jimmy Carter.

BTW all states in the US have anti usury laws like 18% and above, this concept was not lost to the people around here and almost  in congruence with quranic injunction  gave protection to the poor folks. But the forces who love usurious rates do not give up.

Read the contract or have the contract read who understand the language it is written in.

The usury is haram but you know the most rulers in the lands of the ummah have been way beyond that point, they usurped the ummahís wealth and squandered it for the personal aggrandizements for last 14 centuries which would have alleviated the poverty of the masses. And while doing this they disposed most quraanic proposals to their self serving ends.



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Ghazzali
Date Posted: 25 April 2007 at 10:07am

Assalamualikum. Sign reader wrote:

"His has gone to a great length to differentiate between the interest levied by the central bank versus the usury as defined in the Quraanic verses and done a fairly good job. "

Thanks for your insight, but could you be more specific? I mean you agree with him or not.

Again you wrote:

"The usury is haram but you know the most rulers in the lands of the ummah have been way beyond that point, they usurped the ummahís wealth and squandered it for the personal aggrandizements for last 14 centuries which would have alleviated the poverty of the masses. And while doing this they disposed most quraanic proposals to their self serving ends."

Very true, very true. We are ashamed of those rulers.

Again:

"In this global village, you and I are not even in the picture to make a difference cuz  the market indicators decides and the central bank ups  or lowers the rate for renting of the money to the big banks."

That's for the future. We first have to come to a solution to the interest problem. Once we do that, the "you and I"s around the world will strive to make a difference inshallah. As your signature goes, when we do our part, Allah will do His.

More views on the article anticipated. Thank you.



-------------
The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 28 April 2007 at 2:45am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Nobody dies out like that, quit dreaming the cowardly dreams and try convincing the Muslims go on with the current nightmare

The Muslims, who do not have sufficient faith, will defect, and stop obeying the laws of the One God, to their own detriment. In the case of usury, riba, the ones who defect, will follow the crowd of unbelievers, run up credit card debts, and become enslaved to these debts, instead of being enslaved to the One God.

The truth is that freedom from the One God does not really set you free, but will enslave you to something else. This is the case with every one of the rules. The western lifestyle may appear attractive for the time being. There are enormous advertisement budgets promoting it. Why not be free from the religious rules? It looks tempting to participate. Some will indeed participate.

http://www.balancepro.net/education/publications/areyouincccrisis.html - Are You In Credit Card Crisis?
* Do you avoid creditors by not answering the phone?
* Do you ignore bills by stuffing them into a pile or box unopened?
* Do you pay for other charge cards, food or utilities http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/credit-and-loans/debt-news/article.html?in_article_id=404775&in_page_id=62 - with cash advances or credit ?
* Is more than 20% of your net income committed to installment debt payments?
* Do you regularly bounce checks?
* Have any creditors closed accounts?
* Do you skip certain bills every month?
* Do you make only minimum payments on credit cards while continuing to incur charges?

Five signs that you may be in the early stages of a crisis.
* You count the days until your next paycheck, worried that some checks might not clear
* You have started to pay for groceries and other frequent purchases with a credit card
* You take out a new credit card because it seems like a good deal and you could use the money
* You are becoming uncomfortable talking about finances with your spouse or family members
* You formerly paid off your credit card every month, but now you're carrying a balance from month to month

Five signs that you may be in the middle stages of a crisis.
* You are hiding purchases from your spouse or family members
* You decide to pay some bills and not pay others each month
* You have regular arguments with your family about money
* You receive one collections phone call or letter from a creditor
* You use one credit card to pay off another card

Five signs that you may be in the late stages of a crisis.
* You don't answer the phone because you are receiving so many collection calls and you also dread the arrival of the day's mail
* You take a cash advance on a credit card to pay another card
* You have maxed out several of your credit cards
* Money is causing problems with your spouse or family members
* You are having trouble sleeping at night because of your financial problems

The http://auriton.org/financial_crisis.taf - stress of a financial crisis can lead to increased instances of marital problems, divorce and health problems related to stress.



Posted By: Ghazzali
Date Posted: 28 April 2007 at 6:48am

Assalamualikum. okay crass, credit cards do have their problem. But I am looking for specifc opinion on the article I gave a link to .

Nevertheless, thanks for your contribution.



-------------
The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 28 April 2007 at 7:45am
Originally posted by Ghazzali

But I am looking for specifc opinion on the article I gave a link to.

Originally posted by Article

Contrary to what is generally believed among Muslims, the Quran does not really condemn interest per se that is being universally used for lending and borrowing purposes

Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq: Therefore, there is absolutely no controversy that riba - or at least, some types of riba - is prohibited in Islam.
www.mustaqim.co.uk: Why Islam is Against Lending Money at Interest

From what I can s
ee by Googling on the issue, is that interest seems to be forbidden. The scholars that show up on top, tend to think that it is forbidden.
Originally posted by Article

and also as a monetary policy instrument

The idea that the central bank borrows money by issuing government debt, is indeed an instrument of monetary policy in order to control money supply, but not the only one.

Th
e same effect, that is, reducing money supply, can be obtained by increasing taxes. Abandoning the use of treasury notes would definitely encourage fiscal discipline, and prevent governments from hiding future tax increases behind monetary policy. I don't believe that indiscriminate government lending and running up government debt is such a good idea.

Th
e "buy now pay later" attitude is no good for an individual, let alone, for a government.
Originally posted by Article

an essential device for efficient allocation of productive resources.

Taking into account capital cost is essential to allocate resources, but  capital cost contains a risk-based component for the purpose of capital asset pricing, which does not require the presence of fixed income in any way; equity capital markets do not require fixed income.
Originally posted by Article

What it condemns is interest that is charged to people who deserve humanitarian treatment.

The consensus on this issue goes rather in the direction of simply banning charging interest, to both poor and rich people.
Originally posted by Article

So-called Islamic interest-free banking is a misnomer, an unsound institution and a drag on the development of Muslim countries.

Owing a lot of money to the IMF or the World Bank is not really a sign of progress or development. I don't know if Islamic countries would benefit that much from letting the IMF run "Structural adjustment Programmes" locally. The countries that get dragged into that, usually come to regret it:

There have also been a few successful cases of economic and social improvement by countries that have underwent
SAPs.

It  is invariably the country's elite that collects and squanders the loans, while it is the poor who are forced at gunpoint to repay them. The international lending system is known for being a complete scam.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 29 April 2007 at 8:17pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

In Islam we have different types of consensus on issues, one type is when all scholars who lived in the same time period agree on a matter, it may also be that only a group of scholars in various regions or belonging to different madhhabs agreed on the matter this can also be taken as consensus.

It may also be scholars of different time periods agreeing, the point being we have many types with differing strengths of expert opinion, so when the following is said

Contrary to what is generally believed among Muslims, the Quran does not really condemn interest per se that is being universally used for lending and borrowing purposes

This person has literally placed himself above the entirety of muslim scholarship over a period of 1427 years and bluntly stated they where wrong and i am right.

Why am i saying over a period of 1427 years, this is becouse the issue of riba has the strongest type of scholarly consensus from all madhhabs which is that it is unanimously agreed upon by all scholars from all time periods that it is haram.

i think that comment of his should set the tone for the entire article and give a clear indication of his intentions.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 30 April 2007 at 12:29am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

the Grameen Bank of  Bangladesh...Dr. Yunusís...He has used Quraanic references to prove his thesis...His has gone to a great length to differentiate between the interest levied by the central bank versus the usury as defined in the Quraanic verses and done a fairly good job.

In 2006, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Yunus - Yunus and the bank were jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize...Yunus himself has received several other international honors, including the ITU World Information Society Award, Ramon Magsaysay Award, the World Food Prize and the Sydney Peace Prize.

Many, but not all, microcredit projects also retain its emphasis on lending specifically to women. More than 96% of Grameen loans have gone to women, who suffer disproportionately from poverty and who are more likely than men to devote their earnings to their families. For his work with the Grameen Bank, Yunus was named an Ashoka: Innovators for the Public Global Academy Member in 2001.

The West has turned Yunus into a hero for promoting the western agenda of loan slavery and family destruction.

The Citibanks and other credit card sharks of this world must love that guy!


http://www.symbiotics.ch/en/latest_news.asp?id=b433 - Kashf Foundation, Citibank launch commercial microfinance syndication in Pakistan. The credit card sharks like the system too!

By the way, look at the subtle endorsements of feminism: men are no good, and by definition irresponsible, and family arrangements are no good, because they lead to poverty, and women are actually better off alone as single mothers, borrowing their way out of poverty.

The next step consists in figuring out where the kids are going to come from, in the absence of marriage?

Men are no good, and by definition irresponsible, and boyfriend arrangements are still no good, because they lead to poverty, and women are actually better off alone as single mothers, borrowing their way out of poverty.

So, the way forward is therefore casual sex arrangements, combined with improved government efforts to figure out which men exactly the single mother has been sleeping with, and who is actually the father of the child, and collect support payments from such randomly appointed support-tax payer.

The other ones only need to contribute  taxes, as usual, to generally pay for the housing and welfare benefits for single mothers who happen to be less successful at implementing the Great New Plan.

Of course, everybody is supposed to live far enough away from the housing estates where these single mothers will concentrate, in order not to benefit from the crime waves that they generate.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that men are useless. However, single women on their own generally don't seem to be that much more useful ...

Let the West continue their experiment and let's see where it all goes. I think the results will be most interesting.

In the meanwhile:

I DO NOT PARTICIPATE.



Posted By: Ghazzali
Date Posted: 02 May 2007 at 1:05pm

That's what I call 'specific'.

Thanks. Assalamualikum.



-------------
The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 03 May 2007 at 12:25pm
OK I need some one to explain an Islamic a viable/strong working model / cycle of  money on global scale. You know the money talks and BS walks.

Where it is being practiced in it's purity, if not  why not?




-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 04 May 2007 at 1:09am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

why do people have to have come up with a viable model for something to be haram in religion?

we know what is haram the rest is up to the people to develope in accordance with religion...not that there isnt a model i just cant be bothered researching it again.

try the murabitune [Abdalqadir as-Sufi al-Murabit] model there whole organisation is dedicated to this issue, not that i agree with them.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Aminah07
Date Posted: 07 May 2007 at 4:53am

WAS,

I have a question re: Interest if someone could help with it that would be wonderful.

I have a large extended family we are all working and just living at a very basic level so we are never able to save enough to purchase a home out right for cash. We are too large to fit into an apartment and have had bad experiences renting and have had property stolen out of our rental home several times.

My husband spoke with one Imam at Ramadan and he gave a very lengthy explanation about rulings from AlAzhar on purchasing a home with a loan by interest and that it is considered acceptable and that later we could still make Hajj. We inquired with 3 other Imams at different times when we were considering switching to a company that offered riba free mortgages and two Imams advised against it and two encouraged us. So I was just wondering what everyone is doing about this if they live in a western or european country that requires some sort of financing to purchase a home.

Also I have several lecture tapes on the subject of credit cards and have been to several fund raising dinners and have always thought that credit cards were not to be used but on the tapes and at the dinners the Imams or guest speakers encouraged the use of them as long as they were paid off at the end of the month is this really okay?

Aminah



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 09 May 2007 at 1:32am
Aminah07
ASA
I would say if you have a large extended family you need a house you get a house like every body gets a house in the US.

The longer you live as renter  longer you are  helping some one else pay the mortgage on the apartment you live in.

You will not be considered an ideal tenant  trying to fit a large family into the apartment if I was your landlord.
 Do all the due diligence before buying the house.

If you have children then you must.

Check the location, it is a buyers market right now!

Our former Imam's son is a broker that is the way it is.


-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Aminah07
Date Posted: 09 May 2007 at 6:41am

WAS,

Thank you br. sign*reader

Aminah




Print Page | Close Window