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Awrah of the Muslimah with other Sr’s.

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Culture & Community
Forum Name: Groups – Women (Sisters)
Forum Discription: Groups – Women (Sisters)
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8273
Printed Date: 26 November 2014 at 7:15am


Topic: Awrah of the Muslimah with other Sr’s.
Posted By: USA-NIQAABI
Subject: Awrah of the Muslimah with other Sr’s.
Date Posted: 17 January 2007 at 7:57am

Assalamu'Alaikum Sr's,

In the past I was invited to go to sr's homes for sr's only days and swim and visit etc...but was never able to go because at that time we lived far from the city and my children were small and not yet in school.

Recently, I've heard of sr's only halqas' at sr's homes and not to my surprise the majority of the halaqa's is chit-chat rather than serious Islamic studies. I know some sr's that go and others that won't because of the chit-chat and the fact that as soon as the sr's hit the door they take off their abaya's and hijab and get very comfortable in their high fashion etc....

I'm glad I didn't have an opportunity years ago to go to those swim parties and afternoon teas' now that I'm older and more informed. At that time I remember feeling left out and wishing we had another car so I could go into the city...At that time I was a new muslimah and very trusting and ready to take the advice from anyone that wore hijab.....and at that time there was no "World Wide Web" it would be several years before the term "Online" was used readily.

I opted out of the sr's halaqas' at the sr's house close to the masjid because I don't want to put myself or family in a negative situation that will open the door for gossip etc....

Here's an article I found about awrah among sr's.

The awrah of the Muslim woman amongst Muslim women
Compiled By :Abu Aqeela
Translated By : Abu Aqeela
All praises to Allah, we praise Him and seek His Aid and His Forgiveness, we seek refuge in Allah from the evils of our ownselves and from the evils of our actions. I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah having no partners and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Slave and Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)

To proceed:

That which you have before you is an attempt to bring about some clarity in regards to the issue of the Awrah of the muslim Woman amongst Muslim women & the Dancing of women (at gatherings such as Eid,Weddings,etc).
You will find within this short treatise, selective fataawa in regards to these two issues. It has also been separated in to two parts.

The awrah of the Muslim woman amongst Muslim women.
This section consists of the kalaam of our shaykh, Saalih ibn Foazaan ibn Abdullah al Foazaan(may Allah preserve him) in form of questions and answers (fataawa).

Allah subhaanahu wa ta aala says in in His Book:

...and not to reveal their adornments except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islaam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.Suratun-Nur 31

From that which has been highlighted in the forementioned ayah it is permissible for the believing women to reveal their adorments (those areas of adorments eg. the likes of the face,hair,neck,forearm & lower shin. wallahu aalum) amongst believing women, or female slaves or children who have no sense of same or sex.

The question however now arises in regards to the type of clothing worn in these situations from that which is suitable and allowed.

In this regard several questions were asked to Shaykh Saalih ibn Foazaan ibn Abdullah al Foazaan (May Allah preserve him) :

Question Many women hold an opinion regarding the awrah of a woman infront of another woman is that which is between the navel and the knee. So some of them do not hesistate to wear clothing that very tight or open revealing large portions of the chest and arms. What do you say concerning them?

Answer.What is required from the muslim women is modesty and shyness, and that she should be a good example to her muslim sisters,and she shouldnot expose to them except that which is considered normal/befitting for/of righteous muslim women to show amongst themselves. This is what is initially upon them and is safest for indeed being unattentive and laxed in exposing that which there is no need to expose could lead to further unattentiveness and carelessness hence leading to that which is forbidden. wa Allahu aalum (and Allah knows best) [
http://www.therighteouspath.com/sisters/awrah_women.htm#1 - 1 ]

Question Does a woman wearin tight clothes infront of other women come under the hadeeth ((...women who will be clothed yet naked...))?

Answer.There is no doubt that the wearing of tight clothes which reveal the alluring parts of the body is something not permissible, not permissible except for wearing it for her husband only. As for infront of other than her husband then it is not permissible.Even if there is only women present because she will represent as a bad example for them.When they see her doing so they may follow her in it. Also she has been ordered to cover her awrah with that which is loose and a be covered in front of everyone except her husband. So she covers her awrah in front of other women as she does in front of men except that which is considered normal and befitting of her to show amongst other women like the face, hands,feet and that which there is a need to uncover/reveal..[
http://www.therighteouspath.com/sisters/awrah_women.htm#2 - 2 ]

Question What is the ruling concerning the wearing of clothes which are see thru or tight to the extent that it reveals her bodily parts?

Answer.It is obligatory upon the women that their clothing is not of the likes that it is so thin that the colour of the skin may be seen thru it, neither that it is so tight as to reveal the shape of her bodily parts this is because the Prophet (saw) said : ((Two types of people from the inhabitants of hellfire i have not yet seen: Women covered yet uncovered when they walk they swing their sides/hips, upon their heads resemble the humps of camels they will not enter al jannah nor will they find its scent, and men who have with them whips resembling the tails of cows with them they beat the slave of Allah))[
http://www.therighteouspath.com/sisters/awrah_women.htm#3 - 3 ]

Shaykh ul Islaam ibn Taimiya - may Allah have mercy upon him- in Maj'moo al fataawaa says regarding the staetment of the messenger (saws) ((...covered but uncovered...)) means the wearing of clothes that doesnot cover her so she is clothed but in reality she is naked, like the woman who wears clothing which is thin so as to show her skin or clothing which is tight which clings revealing her bodily parts for example her posterior or the thigh or the likes. Truly the clothing of a woman is that which covers her not showing the shape of her limbs or more than that becuse it is that which is loose and non transparent. [
http://www.therighteouspath.com/sisters/awrah_women.htm#4 - 4 ]

What has preceeded, is some of the fatwaa given by shaykh Saalih al Faozaan -may Allah preserve him- pretaining to the attire of muslim women amongst muslim women hopefully bringing some clarity to this affair. However for one to hold the opinion that the awrah of the muslim woman amongst muslim women is that which is between the navel and the knee then from that which is upon them is:  
  •  firstly ,to present evidence in this regard and a presidence for this opinion from ahul Ilm.  
  •  secondly to acknowledge that holding the opinion that the awrah is of such (between women) would illiminate such clothing such as 'hipsters' or 'stretch jeans' or the likes as the shape of the bodily parts can clearly be seen and there for is not permissible, as explained by the shaykh may Allah preserve him.

    The Dancing of Women (at gatherings such as Eid, Weddings,etc).

    A question was asked in this regard to, the Muhaddith, the Imaam the late Shaykh Muhammad Naasir ud Deen al Albaanee (may Allah have mercy upon him) which was published in al Asaalah magazine, volume 8. The translation of this section was not done by myself and can be found at the website al-manhaj.com under the e books section ( which is reproduced here).

    Question We know that a woman's dancing in front of her husband, and likewise her dancing with women, which is swaying, and the dabkah [
    http://www.therighteouspath.com/sisters/awrah_women.htm#5 - 5 ] of men are forbidden, but what is the proof for that? Please provide us with some insight on this, may Allaah reward you.

    Answer This question consists of three parts:
    First: A woman dancing in front of her husband
    Second: Her dancing in front of other women
    Third: The dabkah performed by men

    As for the first part, which is a woman's dancing in front of her husband. If her dancing is natural and not professional – i.e. she did not learn how to dance, as is the fashion of this time – even if she stirs the desires of the man, then there is no text that can be found that forbids this. But this is on the condition that it occurs between her and her husband only. As for the case where she has learned to dance and she applies the rules of modern-day dancing, then this is not permissible. This is because I believe that if she will do that in front of her husband, then she will surely also do it in front of other men besides her husband.

    As for her dancing in front of other women, then I also say that if her objective in dancing is to dance this modern style of dancing, then it is clear that it is not permissible. And if it is said: "What is the proof for what you have stated?" I say: Moderation in matters is very rare; there is either excessiveness or there is negligence. This is especially the case with people who have lived a long period of time in deviation of a specific nature. Then when it becomes clarified to them that this matter was a deviation and that the Religion rejects it, they turn away from it and introduce in place of that, a severe reaction.

    This is what has befallen us in this present time with regard to the issue of demanding the proof in place of the liberation from blind following. The Muslims, both special and common people, have lived long generations not knowing anything but the madh-hab of so and so and the madh-hab of so and so – four madh-habs, the madh-habs of Ahl-us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. And this is not to mention the other madh-habs, those that have deviated from the Sunnah and the Jamaa'ah. As for relying on what Allaah and his Messenger, sallAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said for support, then this was only found in the generations that have received testimony of their excellence. Then that affair came to an end for a point in time until there came the time of Ibn Taimiyyah and those of his students who were devoted to him. So they informed the Muslims of the obligation of returning back to what the first Salaf (predecessors) were upon, such as relying on the Qur'aan and the Sunnah for support.

    There is no doubt that the Call of Ibn Taimiyyah and his students had a positive effect. However, its scope was very weak during his time and intellectual impassiveness (i.e. not reflecting on proofs) took over and became dominant amongst the special classes of people, not to mention the common ones. Then there followed succeeding generations in which this re-awakening that Shaikh-ul-Islaam Ibn Taimiyyah ignited died out. And the Muslims turned back to their indifference of comprehending and understanding (i.e. the evidences), until this present time and a brief period before it, for many scholars rose to take charge of the Da'wah's revival, due to the need of returning to the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. They were preceded in some of that by Shaikh Muhammad Ibn 'Abd-il-Wahhaab, for in reality, he called to the following of the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. But looking at the areas in which the Arabs of Najd during Shaikh Muhammad's land used to live in, and considering the paganism that took place in their lands, his greatest effort was in showing strong concern for Tawheed. And as is very natural, in my opinion, such that mankind's ability is limited, he was not able to wage his war on every front, as they say. So because of this, all of his efforts were geared towards spreading the call of Tawheed and waging war against paganism and idolatry. And he received all the success in that and his splendid Call was spread all over the Islaamic world afterwards. And this was even though, unfortunately, there occurred battles between him and his opponents. But this is the Sunnah (Way) of Allaah with regard to His creation. And you will not find any change in the Sunnah (Way) of Allaah.

    However, in current times, the scholars have renewed their call to the Book and the Sunnah and thus many of the common and special people in the Arab lands have re-awakened. As for the non-Arab lands, then unfortunately they are still in a state of sleep.

    However, these Arab lands have been tested by a reversal, which is what I have indicated previously, such that some of them do not stop at the middle point of moderation. Instead they know of one thing and are ignorant of another thing. So you will see the common man who doesn't understand anything, when he asks the scholar on any subject "What is its ruling? ", regardless of whether the answer is a denial and a negation, he begins with his demand: "What is the proof?"

    And sometimes that scholar is not able to establish the proof, especially if the proof is deduced and adopted through thorough research, and it is not stated in a specific text in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. So in issues of this nature, it is not proper for the questioner to go deep and say: "What is the proof?" And it is required that the questioner know himself. Is he from the people that understand evidences or not? Does he have any share in knowledge of the general ('aam) and the specific (khaas), the unrestricted (mutlaq) and the restricted (muqayyad), the abrogating (naasikh) and the abrogated (mansookh). So if the person does not understand any of these things, then does he get any benefit from saying: "What is the proof"?! For what?! – For the ruling on a woman dancing in front of her husband or her dancing in front of her Muslim sister, whether it is either permissible or forbidden! And the dabkah of men! He wants the proof for that! But in reality, there is no textual proof from the Messenger, sallAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, on that matter that exists for us. There is only investigation, deduction and the acquisition of understanding for it.

    Due to this, we say at certain times: Not every issue has an explicit proof that can be presented in detail, which every Muslim can understand, whether he is a common unlettered person or a student of knowledge. But this is not for all the issues. This is why Allaah, the Most High, says: "Ask the people of knowledge if you don't know."

    From the extremism that we indicated previously – and due to it, the most ignorant of people has begun to decline the proof – is that many of those who attribute themselves to the Book and the Sunnah: They believe that the scholar, when he is asked on an issue, it is obligatory upon him to link "Allaah said and His Messenger said" with his answer.

    I say that this is not an obligation, and that it is from the benefits of belonging to the methodology of the Salaf As-Saalih (righteous predecessors). And furthermore, their biographies and their fataawaa (religious verdicts) is a proof in action for what I have stated. So based on this, mentioning the proof is obligatory when the situation necessitates it, however it is not an obligation on him every time he is asked a question to say: "Allaah says such and such" or "The Messenger of Allaah, sallAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said such and such." And this is especially if the issues are from the detailed and intricate issues of Fiqh in which there are differences of opinion.

    Furthermore, the saying of Allaah:"Ask the people of knowledge if you don't know" is first of all in the unrestricted sense, so all you have to do is ask someone whom you feel is from the people of knowledge. And when you hear the answer from him, then it is upon you to follow it, unless you have a doubt about it due to what you heard from another scholar. There is no harm in you mentioning that to him. So at that point, the scholar must make an effort, with the knowledge he has, to remove this doubt which has been presented to the questioner.

    In summary: A woman dancing in front of her husband, along with the restrictive condition mentioned previously, is permissible. As for her dancing in front of other women, then it has two forms also, as we have stated before. With regard to a woman dancing in front of her husband, then if her dancing is not joined with professionalism (i.e. learned way of dancing), but rather it is just a moving and waving of hands, and there is no shaking of the hips or those sorts of things that stir the desires and causes doubts, then there is also no problem with this dancing. If it is correct to call it dancing! But if any of those (evil) things mentioned above are found in it, then refraining from it is the original principle. As for the dabkah of men, then if it is in imitation of the dances, which we see are normally joined with singing, not to mention that there are words mentioned in them that are not from the Religion, then this is lahw (a vain pastime) and it is not encouraged. Rather, it is encouraged to stay away from it, as the Prophet, sallAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said: "Every lahw (vain pastime) the Son of Adam engages in is falsehood, except his playing with his wife, his playing with his horse, archery and learning to swim." So due to this hadeeth, we hold the opinion that it is falsehood. So if this is the condition of the pure vain pastime in that we are encouraged to refrain from it and that is not from the truthful matters, then we say that it allowable, so long as is not accompanied with something that opposes the Religion in any aspect of it. However, it is an allowance that must be weighed by the hadeeth that I have mentioned previously.

    But in my opinion, and Allaah knows best for I have not witnessed any of these dabkahs, it is not possible for it to be free from any opposition to the Religion. And this is because, for example, we have heard the dabkah at times, and it is not just it alone. Rather, we hear along with it, music, the mu'adhdhin calling the Adhaan and the Imaam reciting the Qur'aan out loud. And they do not care about anything else but instead they are busy with their vain pastime. Therefore, the dabkah is from the vain pastimes that must be weighed and determined. And we do not say that it is Haraam (forbidden) unless it is combined with something that goes against the Religion from one of the aspects, for then it would turn without a doubt into something Haraam (forbidden). [Al-Asaalah, Issue #8]

    Footnotes:

    1 al muntaqaa min fataawa vol.3 p307 #453
    2 al muntaqaa min fataawa vol.3 p307 #454
    3 please refer to an english translation of saheeh muslim for a more precise translation of the hadeeth.
    4 al fataawa al jaamatu li Imra'atul muslima vol.3 p845 #763.
    5 Translator’s note: A dabkah in Arabic is a dance in which people form a line by holding each other’s arms. The question is with regard to this dance being performed by a group of men.



  • Replies:
    Posted By: Hayfa
    Date Posted: 18 January 2007 at 1:35am
    As for the first part, which is a woman's dancing in front of her husband. If her dancing is natural and not professional – i.e. she did not learn how to dance, as is the fashion of this time – even if she stirs the desires of the man, then there is no text that can be found that forbids this. But this is on the condition that it occurs between her and her husband only. As for the case where she has learned to dance and she applies the rules of modern-day dancing, then this is not permissible. This is because I believe that if she will do that in front of her husband, then she will surely also do it in front of other men besides her husband.

    Interesting.. to think that if a woman learned to "dance" before becoming a moslem and dances for her husband then she'll do it for others.. interesting to have this idea..

    -------------
    When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


    Posted By: Muslimah07
    Date Posted: 19 January 2007 at 7:53pm

    Allah has already permitted us Muslim women to not "cover up" in front of other women--so why are people trying to 'forbid' something that Allah has already permitted?

    As far as women going to the hellfire for not being fully covered--that is not written anywhere in Koran. Allah says He will weigh all our our deeds. Allah also said that "The Best Clothing is that of Righteouesness".

    As far as trying to say that dancing with other women present at women gatherings is a sin---seems opposite of what Allah has said when he permitted women to reveal their beauty in presence of other women.

    We have to stop making Islam seem like such a difficult and harsh religion-- as doing so probably turns many women away from Islam or staying with Islam after they convert.



    -------------
    Peace


    Posted By: amah
    Date Posted: 20 January 2007 at 5:09am

    Assalaamualaikum sisters,

    Originally posted by Muslimah07

    Allah has already permitted us Muslim women to not "cover up" in front of other women--so why are people trying to 'forbid' something that Allah has already permitted?

    The topic is about "awrah" not "hijab". We all know that we do not wear "hijab" in front of women. But we have to cover our awrah.

    The Qur’aan clearly indicates that a woman should not show to other women anything other than that which she shows to her mahrams, that which she customarily uncovers in her own home and when doing housework, as Allaah says :

    “…and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam)…”

    What you can reveal in front of your brothers, is what you can reveal in front of your sister as well.

    As far as women going to the hellfire for not being fully covered--that is not written anywhere in Koran. 

    But mentioned in hadeeth:

    It is narrated in Saheeh Muslim (2128) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are two types of the people of Hell whom I have not seen: people with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they beat the people, and women who are clothed yet naked, misguided and leading others astray, with their heads like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will not enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance may be detected from such and such a distance.”  

    Allah says He will weigh all our our deeds. Allah also said that "The Best Clothing is that of Righteouesness".

    Agreed.

    As far as trying to say that dancing with other women present at women gatherings is a sin---seems opposite of what Allah has said when he permitted women to reveal their beauty in presence of other women.

     Allowing women to adorn themselves in front of other women is different from allowing women to dance.

    We have to stop making Islam seem like such a difficult and harsh religion-- as doing so probably turns many women away from Islam or staying with Islam after they convert.

    In fact it  is "haya" that attracts women to Islam. And reminding women about modesty is not making islam look harsh.

    Wassalaam.



    -------------
    Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
    (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)


    Posted By: USA-NIQAABI
    Date Posted: 20 January 2007 at 3:07pm

    Assalamu'Alaikum,

    The Shariah ruling on hijab is that even in our homes we should wear hijab. You can go to the ask Imam Q/A on this site under the members section or to http://www.ask-imam.com - www.ask-imam.com

    There is also multiple hadiths explaining the type of women that will fill the Hell Fire and that there will be more women than men in the Hell Fire.

    Also there is Hadith about the mixing of milk with water and how the young girl wouldn't not because Allah(swt) can see you wherever you are and she knew it was wrong....

    MasSalaama



    Posted By: amah
    Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 12:13am
    Originally posted by USA-NIQAABI

    Assalamu'Alaikum,

    Wa Alaikumassalaam.

    The Shariah ruling on hijab is that even in our homes we should wear hijab. You can go to the ask Imam Q/A on this site under the members section or to http://www.ask-imam.com - www.ask-imam.com

    Kindly give me reference from quran/hadith to support this claim.

    There is also multiple hadiths explaining the type of women that will fill the Hell Fire and that there will be more women than men in the Hell Fire.

    Also there is Hadith about the mixing of milk with water and how the young girl wouldn't not because Allah(swt) can see you wherever you are and she knew it was wrong....

    MasSalaama

    wassalaam.



    -------------
    Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
    (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)


    Posted By: USA-NIQAABI
    Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 6:54am

    Assalamu'Alaikum,

    Here are some but there are many more...I can find more later if you like but right now I have to get busy with cleaning my house and preparing the afternoon supper let me know and I'll try Insha'Allah to post later.

    MasSalaama

    The scholars of the Standing Committee were asked:

    There is no reason why a woman should not uncover her face in front of another woman, whether she is a Muslim or a kaafir, because women are only commanded to cover their faces in front of men who are not their mahrams. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “…and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their women…”

    [al-Noor 24:31]

    So Allaah commanded them to draw their veils over their faces in front of men, except for the mahrams mentioned in this verse, or those who are their mahrams because of breastfeeding (radaa’ah), as mentioned in other verses.

    What is meant by “women” in this verse is all women, both Muslim and non-Muslim. And Allaah knows best.

    Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 17/287, 288

    The Muslim Woman and Her Rabb-USC-MSA
    This deep faith and awareness had an amazing effect on the lives of Muslim men and women: it awoke their consciences and reminded them that Allah (SWT) witnesses and knows every secret, and that He is with a person wherever he may be. Nothing gives a clearer idea of that consciousness and fear of Allah (SWT) at all times than the story of the young Muslim girl related in Sifat al-Safwah and Wafiyat al-A'yan and cited by Ibn al-Jawzi in Ahkam al-Nisa' (pp. 441, 442):

    "Narrated `Abdullah ibn Zayd ibn Aslam, from his father, from his grandfather, who said: `When I was accompanying `Umar ibn al-Khattab on his patrol of Madinah at night, he felt tired, so he leant against a wall. It was the middle of the night, and (we heard) a woman say to her daughter, "O my daughter, get up and mix that milk with some water." The girl said, "O Mother, did you not hear the decree of Amir al-Mu'minin (chief of the believers) today?" The mother said, "What was that?" The girl said, "He ordered someone to announce in a loud voice that milk should not be mixed with water." The mother said, "Get up and mix the milk with water; you are in a place where `Umar cannot see you." The girl told her mother, "I cannot obey Him (Allah) in public and disobey him in private." `Umar heard this, and told me: "O Aslam, go to that place and see who that girl is, and to whom she was speaking, and whether she has a husband." So I went to that place, and I saw that she was unmarried, the other woman was her mother, and neither of them had a husband. I came to `Umar and told him what I had found out. He called his sons together, and said to them: "Do any of you need a wife, so I can arrange the marriage for you? If I had the desire to get married, I would have been the first one to marry this young woman." `Abdullah said: "I have a wife." `Abd al-Rahman said: "I have a wife." `Asim said: "I do not have a wife, so let me marry her." So `Umar arranged for her to be married to `Asim. She gave him a daughter, who grew up to be the mother of `Umar ibn `Abd al-`Aziz.'"

    This is the deep sense of awareness that Islam had implanted in the heart of this young woman. She was righteous and upright in all her deeds, both in public and in private, because she believed that Allah (SWT) was with her at all times and saw and heard everything. This is true faith, and these are the effects of that faith, which raised her to the level of ihsan. One of the immediate rewards with which Allah (SWT) honoured her was this blessed marriage, one of whose descendants was the fifth rightly-guided khalifah, `Umar ibn `Abd al-`Aziz `May Allah be pleased with him' (RAA).

    The Aqeedah (faith) of the true Muslim woman is pure and clear, uncontaminated by any stain of ignorance, illusion or superstition. This Aqeeda is based on faith in Allah, (SWT) the One, the Most High, the Eternal, Who is able to do all things, Who is in control of the entire universe, and to Whom all things must return:

    ( Say: `Who is it in Whose hands is the governance of all things - Who protects [all], but is not protected [by any]? [Say] if you know.' They will say, `[It belongs] to Allah,' Say: `Then how are you deluded?') (Qur'an 23:88-89)

    Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you."

     

    “and not to show off their adornment” [al-Noor 24:31]

    “and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As Salaah (Iqamat as Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey Allaah and His Messenger”[al-Ahzaab 33:33]



    Posted By: amah
    Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 7:25am

    Assalaamualaikum

    Either you have not understood the ruling or I have not understood you.

    Anyways, you may read   http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=82994&ln=eng&txt=awrah - This  and http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&QR=34745 - This

    Wassalaam.



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    Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
    (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)


    Posted By: USA-NIQAABI
    Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 8:26am

    Assalamu'Alaikum,

    JazakAllahKhair,

    Thank you for posting these links if you click on your first link and go to the bottom and click on in blue 37475 or something like that you'll find this...this is what I was looking for earlier but could not find on evidences...Mash'Allah.

    We can go round and round about whether to cover our hair with other sisters or not but the issue is up to your level of Imaan and a decision you will have to make in your own life. 

    We know Allah(swt) is watching us everywhere and not only will our actions effect us but they will be carried on our husbands and fathers shoulders as sin if we did not adhere to what Allah(swt) want us to.

    There are many fatwahs of modern day that have been issued on this and the reason being that women are not safe among other women that are not within the family unit. These women could speak about your appearence to other males or females outside your family and create fitnah or an attraction to you that you would not want. To have someone desire what you have or what you look like or you in this way is not pleasing to Allah(swt) his commands are protections for us to remain safe and promote Islam in a positive manner.

    Again thank you for this link...I love the last sentence about covering infront of our children....Mash'Allah this is true you must set a good moral example for them so they will know how to run their homes when they are grown and married.

    What is a woman permitted to uncover in front of other women and mahrams?


    Question:
    What is your opinion of what many women do nowadays, whereby they wear very short clothes when they are with other women and there are no men present? Some of these clothes show a large part of the back and stomach, or they wear these short clothes (like shorts) in front of their children at home?.

    Answer:
    Praise be to Allaah.  

    The Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas issued a statement on this matter, which reads as follows: 

    Praise be to Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds, and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad, and upon all his family and companions. 

    The believing women at the beginning of Islam were extremely pure, chaste, and modest, which was the blessing of belief in Allaah and His Messenger and following the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Women at that time used to wear concealing garments, and it is not known that they used to uncover themselves when they met one another or when they met their mahrams. The women of this ummah followed this mode of behaviour – praise be to Allaah – generation after generation until recently, when corruption and impropriety entered the way women dress and behave for many reasons, which we do not have room to discuss here. 

    Because of the large number of questions that have been sent to the Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas about women looking at women, and what women should wear, the Committee is telling all Muslim women that women are obliged to have an attitude of modesty, which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) described as being part of faith and one of the branches of faith. One aspect of the modesty which is enjoined by Islam and by custom is that women should cover themselves, be modest and adopt an attitude and conduct that will keep her far away from falling into fitnah (temptation) and doubtful situations. 

    The Qur’aan clearly indicates that a woman should not show to other women anything other than that which she shows to her mahrams, that which she customarily uncovers in her own home and when doing housework, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

    “…and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam)…”

    [al-Noor 24:31] 

    If this is the text of the Qur’aan and this is what is indicated by the Sunnah, then this is what the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the womenfolk of the Sahaabah used to do, and the women of the ummah who followed them in truth until the present day. What was usually uncovered in front of the people mentioned in this verse is what women usually uncover when they are at home and when doing housework, which is difficult to avoid, such as uncovering the head, hands, neck and feet.  

    With regard to going to extremes in uncovering, there is no evidence in the Qur’aan and Sunnah that this is permissible. This is also the way that leads to a woman tempting or being tempted by other women, which happens among them. It also sets a bad example to other women, as well as being an imitation of kaafir women, prostitutes and immoral women in the way they dress. It was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” Narrated by Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawood. In Saheeh Muslim (2077) it is narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw him wearing two garments dyed with safflower, and he said, “These are from the clothing of the kuffaar – do not wear them.” 

    It is also narrated in Saheeh Muslim (2128) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are two types of the people of Hell whom I have not seen: people with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they beat the people, and women who are clothed yet naked, misguided and leading others astray, with their heads like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will not enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance may be detected from such and such a distance.”  

    The meaning of the phrase “clothed yet naked” is that the woman is wearing clothes that do not cover her, so she is clothed, but in fact she is naked, such as when she wears a thin dress that shows the colour of her skin, or a dress that shows the outline of her body, or a short dress that does not cover part of her limbs. 

    So what Muslim women have to do is to adhere to the guidance followed by the Mothers of the Believers (the Prophet’s wives) and the womenfolk of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them), and the women of this ummah who followed them in truth, and strive to cover themselves and be modest. This is farthest removed from the causes of fitnah and will protect them from the things that lead to provocation of desires and falling into immorality. 

    Muslim women must also beware of falling into that which Allaah and His Messenger have forbidden of imitating kaafir women and prostitutes, in obedience to Allaah and His Messenger, and in the hope of attaining the reward of Allaah, and for fear of His punishment. 

    Every Muslim must also fear Allaah with regard to the women who are under his care, and not let them wear things that Allaah and His Messenger have forbidden, such as provocative clothes, or clothes that are revealing or tempting. He should remember that he is a shepherd and will be responsible for his flock on the Day of Resurrection. 

    We ask Allaah to set the Muslims’ affairs straight, and to guide us all to the straight path, for He is All-Hearing, Ever-Near and Ever Responsive. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon his family and companions. 

    Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 17/290 

    It also says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (17/297): 

    What a woman is permitted to uncover in front of her children is that which is customarily uncovered, such as the face, hands, forearms, feet and so on. 

    And Allaah knows best.

     

     



    Posted By: herjihad
    Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 11:44am
    Originally posted by Muslimah07

    Allah has already permitted us Muslim women to not "cover up" in front of other women--so why are people trying to 'forbid' something that Allah has already permitted?

    As far as women going to the hellfire for not being fully covered--that is not written anywhere in Koran. Allah says He will weigh all our our deeds. Allah also said that "The Best Clothing is that of Righteouesness".

    As far as trying to say that dancing with other women present at women gatherings is a sin---seems opposite of what Allah has said when he permitted women to reveal their beauty in presence of other women.

    We have to stop making Islam seem like such a difficult and harsh religion-- as doing so probably turns many women away from Islam or staying with Islam after they convert.

    Salaamu Alaykum,

    Here here!



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    Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


    Posted By: herjihad
    Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 11:53am

    Originally posted by Hayfa

    As for the first part, which is a woman's dancing in front of her husband. If her dancing is natural and not professional – i.e. she did not learn how to dance, as is the fashion of this time – even if she stirs the desires of the man, then there is no text that can be found that forbids this. But this is on the condition that it occurs between her and her husband only. As for the case where she has learned to dance and she applies the rules of modern-day dancing, then this is not permissible. This is because I believe that if she will do that in front of her husband, then she will surely also do it in front of other men besides her husband.

    Interesting.. to think that if a woman learned to "dance" before becoming a moslem and dances for her husband then she'll do it for others.. interesting to have this idea..

    Salaamu Alaykum,

    Dear Sister, this provocative, foolish and degrading statement caught my attention also. This person is clearly misogynistic -- a person who hates and mistrusts women merely because we are women.  This is not an Islaamic ruling, and I thank my Loving Lord He has not only  provided me with a brain to realize this man's flagrant misguidance and mistakes in Islaamic thought but also that Sister Hayfa and Sister Muslimah can also see through this man's obfuscatory statements which clearly state that the lowly masses like us shouldn't even question this man's sources as he is a scholar. 

    No thanks, man.  Not today, not tomorrow, not next week, not ever.

    Salaamu Alaykum



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    Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


    Posted By: Muslimah07
    Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 1:00pm

    Dear USA-NIQAABI,

    Any Muslim woman whose Number 1 focus is on Clothing, Hijab, and Niqab has a VERY WEAK and LIMITED understanding of Islam.

    You also seem obsessed with Hadiths that go agaisnt the Koran--and you tell us to even wear hijabs while in our own homes! That is not only crazy, but it is insane.

    Allah has warned us not to follow those "who make up lies" against Allah. Any Hadith that is the opposite of what Allah has told us is a LIE.

    If all you understand from the Koran is hijab--hijab--hijab--and niqab--niqba---niqab--then you are MISSING OUT on what it means to be a Muslim: good deeds, kindness, forgiveness, faith, helping those in need, striving, fasting, and so much more. 

    HIJAB AND NIQAB DOES NOT MAKE YOU A MUSLIM. If you think it does, then just wait until Judgement Day when the angels open your Book of Deeds.

    Once again--Allah has said that the Best Clothing is that of Righteousness. So, Allah is telling is that Clothing and Righteouesness are 2 separate things.

    This is soo silly. I cant believe I'm letting this get me upset. Thank You Herjihad. So Glad that Islamicity has women with Brains! 



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    Peace


    Posted By: USA-NIQAABI
    Date Posted: 21 January 2007 at 3:25pm

    Assalamu'Alaikum Muslimah07,

    I'm so sorry to see your anger and very hurt filled words in response to this thread....

    Insha'Allah can you please tell me from your post does passing judgement on others without knowing them and acusing them of falsehoods make you a muslimah?

    Hadiths don't go against the Quran, and as far as the Shariah rulings and fatwas' I don't have a lot of free time but Insha'Allah if you would like me to over the course of the next few weeks compile of list of names for you to go down and discredit and pass jugement on them as well. I can pm them to you or post them here.

    As I said in my previous post I was very thankfull that the other sister found the link that I had been looking for to post and I did post her link.

    If you think that it is wrong to observe hijab while in your home or while working in your yard you are wrong because although it is up to you to decide what is best for you it is also not your responsibility to tell me that what I do is wrong.

    I live in a busy neighborhood if I want to open my drapes to let the sun light in and want to sit and work at my computer by the front window where people are passing by or stoping in to say "Salaam" than why is it wrong. If I stand on the sidewalk outside my house by the mailbox and look into my home I can see the living room and other rooms from the street why is it wrong to observe hijab in the house than? Should I say "Oh that's crazy I don't care if the cars going down the street or the delivery people that stop next door or my neighbors walking their dog see me while I'm cleaning up or cooking dinner?...that is wrong!

    JazakAllahKhair for your post....it has given me much insight into you and your point of view and I do appreciate being introduced to that. Thank You.

    No sister you are correct hijab doesn't make the muslimah...it's the intention the niha that goes behind it every time you pin it in place...

    MasSalaama



    Posted By: Hayfa
    Date Posted: 22 January 2007 at 10:14pm

    If one wants to wear it in one's home, no problem.

    With other sisters seeing one without hijab, and they might tell a man.. so what?? What do I have to do with another's actions? And besides he still cannot see..



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    When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


    Posted By: amah
    Date Posted: 23 January 2007 at 11:35pm
    Originally posted by Muslimah07

    Dear USA-NIQAABI,

    Any Muslim woman whose Number 1 focus is on Clothing, Hijab, and Niqab has a VERY WEAK and LIMITED understanding of Islam.

    You also seem obsessed with Hadiths that go agaisnt the Koran--and you tell us to even wear hijabs while in our own homes! That is not only crazy, but it is insane.

    Allah has warned us not to follow those "who make up lies" against Allah. Any Hadith that is the opposite of what Allah has told us is a LIE.

    If all you understand from the Koran is hijab--hijab--hijab--and niqab--niqba---niqab--then you are MISSING OUT on what it means to be a Muslim: good deeds, kindness, forgiveness, faith, helping those in need, striving, fasting, and so much more. 

    HIJAB AND NIQAB DOES NOT MAKE YOU A MUSLIM. If you think it does, then just wait until Judgement Day when the angels open your Book of Deeds.

    Once again--Allah has said that the Best Clothing is that of Righteousness. So, Allah is telling is that Clothing and Righteouesness are 2 separate things.

    This is soo silly. I cant believe I'm letting this get me upset. Thank You Herjihad. So Glad that Islamicity has women with Brains! 

    Assalaamualaikum,

    Please read the guidelines.

    4. When discussing issues dealing with Islam, please support your comments with the Quran or Sunnah. Mocking any Quranic reference, Hadith, scholar, or member will not be tolerated. If you are stating something about a religion, please list your source. If it is an opinion, please state this fact.

    15. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community (personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion). Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion, ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed.

    http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ;PN=1

     



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    Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
    (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)


    Posted By: Muslimah07
    Date Posted: 27 January 2007 at 8:11am

    Believe me, I Stand By What I Said.

    Allah tells us that when a Muslim does something wrong, all Belivers must stand out against it. I will not be Silenced by any woman just because I told the Truth.

    The real crime is people who come onto Islamicity and attempt to misguide and oppress Muslim Women around the world by Contradicting the Koran with statements telling us to cover up in front of other women, wear hijab in the house, cover up in front of children in our homes, and that women will go to hellfire if they do not cover their hair--When The Koran Says The Opposite of all those statements. 

    Statements like this are the reason why there is female circumcision, honor killings, bride burnings, and so many other acts of violence against Muslim Women around the world today. There are "scholars" and "fatwahs" to support all of these acts! It takes Strong Muslim Women to stand up and speak out whenever we see people trying to take away our rights.

    Incorrect statements can be very damaging to new Muslimahs, and even cause some women to leave the religion--which is common. I was blessed to have a Muslim father who taught me there is difference between Islam and "His-Lam" --but many Muslimahs dont know the difference--and they can be very intimdated by these riduculously harsh Muslims who make women feel like they're going to hell simply because they do what Allah allows them to do.

     



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    Peace


    Posted By: Alwardah
    Date Posted: 27 January 2007 at 10:33am

    As Salamu Alaikum

    I don't see any contradiction in the articles posted by Sister Usa-Niqaabi.

    If sisters say that the Hadith - Sunnah contradicts the Quran then I only have one Question

    How do you pray your Salah?????????

    Show me one Ayah in the Quran that describes the Salah??

    Sister Usa-Niqaabi let it be; to each her own to proceed further will lead to fitnah and Fitnah is worse than killing.

    There is no compulsion in religion and we all will be judge according to our intentions and actions.

    Salams

     

     



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    “Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
    "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


    Posted By: Muslimah07
    Date Posted: 27 January 2007 at 2:09pm

    I never said that every hadith contradicts the Koran. Read people's statements next time.

    Nobody's going to take away my rights, but if you choose to give yours away thats your perogative. There are hadith to support female circumcision, are you going to run out and do that? Anyways, yes, lets please leave this issue ALONE and Move On with Life.

    (I'm actually a very nice person, but I'm not so nice when I see Muslims trying to oppress Muslim women.It is said that "nice women dont make history".)

    Salaams



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    Peace


    Posted By: Alwardah
    Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 11:11am

    As Salamu Alaikum Muslimah  

    Yes sister I know you did not say every Hadith contradicts the Qur'an, but you did say some do, so what criteria do you use to determine which Hadith contradict the Qur'an and which don’t.

    I still don't understand how sister Usa_niqaabi's post violates your rights.

    Wa Alaikum Salam 



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    “Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
    "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


    Posted By: Muslimah07
    Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 2:59pm

    Dear Usa Niquaabi, after some thought today, I decided that I wanted to apologize for hurting your feelings. I know I came across very strongly, and I apologize for personally hurting you a few days ago. I'm sure that Allah still wants us Muslim women to at least try to get along with each other, even when we disagree.

    As-Salaam-Alaikum



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    Peace


    Posted By: amah
    Date Posted: 29 January 2007 at 8:07am

    Assalaamualaikum

    Originally posted by Muslimah07

    Believe me, I Stand By What I Said.

    Allah tells us that when a Muslim does something wrong, all Belivers must stand out against it.

    Please provide reference where Allah said this.

    I will not be Silenced by any woman just because I told the Truth.

    Will Allah approve the way you lashed out at the sister?

    The real crime is people who come onto Islamicity and attempt to misguide and oppress Muslim Women around the world by Contradicting the Koran with statements telling us to cover up in front of other women, wear hijab in the house, cover up in front of children in our homes, and that women will go to hellfire if they do not cover their hair--When The Koran Says The Opposite of all those statements. 

    If you do not agree with something, give your daleel. It can be done respectfully. There is no need to "attack" the person you disagree with..

    Statements like this are the reason why there is female circumcision, honor killings, bride burnings, and so many other acts of violence against Muslim Women around the world today.

    Reasons for violence against women is because of ignorance, certain cultural beliefs and lack of fear of Allah in people who oppress women.

     There are "scholars" and "fatwahs" to support all of these acts! It takes Strong Muslim Women to stand up and speak out whenever we see people trying to take away our rights.

    No one is forcing you or taking away any rights. You are not even trying to understand what is being discussed here.

    Incorrect statements can be very damaging to new Muslimahs,

    I agree.

    and even cause some women to leave the religion--which is common. I was blessed to have a Muslim father who taught me there is difference between Islam and "His-Lam" --but many Muslimahs dont know the difference--and they can be very intimdated by these riduculously harsh Muslims who make women feel like they're going to hell simply because they do what Allah allows them to do.

    Dont you think you were being harsh?? And which Muslim here is telling you that you are going to Hell?

    wassalaam



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    Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
    (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)


    Posted By: amah
    Date Posted: 29 January 2007 at 8:11am
    Originally posted by Muslimah07

    Dear Usa Niquaabi, after some thought today, I decided that I wanted to apologize for hurting your feelings. I know I came across very strongly, and I apologize for personally hurting you a few days ago. I'm sure that Allah still wants us Muslim women to at least try to get along with each other, even when we disagree.

    As-Salaam-Alaikum

    Alhamdulillah. I hope we can continue the discussion peacefully now insha Allah.

     



    -------------
    Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
    (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)


    Posted By: USA-NIQAABI
    Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 6:07am

    Assalamu'Alaikum,

    JazakAllahuKhair!



    Posted By: herjihad
    Date Posted: 13 February 2007 at 4:56pm

    http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=10&Topic=551 - http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=10&T opic=551

    Salaamu Alaykum Wa Rahamatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

    Was I the first person banned without a posting being made in the banned members section?  I received a terse statement that said, "banned for scholar bashing".  As I said in my pm to the administrator, I didn't appreciate the silent treatment of such a baning. 

    I am not Salafi.  I am Muslimah.  These statements insult my Muslim sisters' integrity and dignity, and I stand by my remarks in defense of all of my sisters.

    I think it's a great idea to have a site like that in support of each school of thought if that's what people want to join.  I want to be in a group for Muslims and friends of Muslims which is diversity filled and based on respect and insightful ponderings of all of us.

     



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    Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


    Posted By: USA-NIQAABI
    Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 5:14pm

    Assalamu'Alaikum Sr. Herjihad,

    I'm not a Salafi Sr either I'm muslim as you and as the other sr's that visit this site are.

    I hadn't gotten this article from that site but when I cut and pasted this article title just know into my browser out of curiousity about 20 or more different sites all popped up with this same article...

    The reason being that with matters of Fiqh it applies to all muslims....and it's up to us to implement them into our lives as much as we can....

    Here are some of the resources used by this author for this article...

    As far as being banned I'm not sure...I don't know what type of message you might have received...you might want to check with the administrators on that issue...

    Footnotes:
    1 al muntaqaa min fataawa vol.3 p307 #453
    2 al muntaqaa min fataawa vol.3 p307 #454
    3 please refer to an english translation of saheeh muslim for a more precise translation of the hadeeth.
    4 al fataawa al jaamatu li Imra'atul muslima vol.3 p845 #763.
    5 Translator’s note: A dabkah in Arabic is a dance in which people form a line by holding each other’s arms. The question is with regard to this dance being performed by a group of men.

    MasSalaama



    Posted By: herjihad
    Date Posted: 30 March 2007 at 10:13pm
    Originally posted by USA-NIQAABI

    Assalamu'Alaikum Sr. Herjihad,

    I'm not a Salafi Sr either I'm muslim as you and as the other sr's that visit this site are.

    I hadn't gotten this article from that site but when I cut and pasted this article title just know into my browser out of curiousity about 20 or more different sites all popped up with this same article...

    The reason being that with matters of Fiqh it applies to all muslims....and it's up to us to implement them into our lives as much as we can....

    Here are some of the resources used by this author for this article...

    As far as being banned I'm not sure...I don't know what type of message you might have received...you might want to check with the administrators on that issue...

    Footnotes:
    1 al muntaqaa min fataawa vol.3 p307 #453
    2 al muntaqaa min fataawa vol.3 p307 #454
    3 please refer to an english translation of saheeh muslim for a more precise translation of the hadeeth.
    4 al fataawa al jaamatu li Imra'atul muslima vol.3 p845 #763.
    5 Translator’s note: A dabkah in Arabic is a dance in which people form a line by holding each other’s arms. The question is with regard to this dance being performed by a group of men.

    MasSalaama

    Bismillah and Salaams,

    Of course you wouldn't have known I was banned for expressing my sincere Islaamic defense of my Muslim sisters' honor because they didn't make it public.  But I was and they did. 



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    Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


    Posted By: fatima
    Date Posted: 01 April 2007 at 5:40am

    Bisimillah irrahman irrahim

    Wa'alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu

    As you have made it public so we tell you the reason it was not announced was because we value your membership as you are with the forum for quite long and the matter did not involve another person of the forum. We love you dearly and i am sure you would agree that some times when you get angry there are things said. Scholars are inheritors of Prophets so if we disagree with them, we should say i disagree and thats my opinion and not doubt their sincerity.

    Now on the other hand, according to most of scholars awrah of a muslim woman infront of other muslim women is from her chest to her knees. Ask any scholar other than salafi brothers and they would tell you thats what sharia'h permits. Some might add but the most desired or liked is ........ . Sister instead of fighting over a matter it is best to say difference of opinion.

    I know its totally not the topic but i was watching news couple of days ago and they were showing how Pakistani President wants an enlightened and modern religion. Next news was Jamia' hafsah's students kidnaping three women for indecent behaviour and forcing them to obey shari'a laws, common muslims taking the law into their hands and giving it name of sharia'a. I was just thinking we have become an ummah of two extremes. I dont know why i thought of that reading this thread .

    wassalam



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    Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


    Posted By: rami
    Date Posted: 01 April 2007 at 8:15am
    Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

    assalamu alaikum

    The salafi brothers hold extreme views when it comes to matters concerning women,

    This is because I believe that if she will do that in front of her husband, then she will surely also do it in front of other men besides her husband.

    what this shaykh believes is of no importance he has basically said because this is what i believe then according to me only it is haram. Haram and halal are for Allah only this person is also not a mujtahid to infer new things from the Quran and sunnah which is clearly what he is doing except in this case they must be so far fetched he cant even bother to quote a single verse or hadith. The Question asks for evidence but all we get is opinion based on nothing as not one single quote is provided.

    I would like to see the hadith banning modern dancing techniques in front of a womens husband, what else is a women dancing in front of her husband alone for but to arouse and please him. Based on what has he restricted the general permissibility.

    then she will surely also do it in front of other men besides her husband.

    Is there some islamic principle or something that permits this absurd conclusion which is basically the equivalent of saying women can not have relation with there husbands out of fear of having relations with other men. The same things which stop women from sleeping with men who are not there husbands will stop them from dancing in front of strange men.

    Women Covering in Front of Other Women
    Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed

    What is ruling of hijab if a woman is at a women’s gathering? I know it is permissible for her to remove her scarf, but how much of her body can she expose?

    If she is in the presence of trustworthy Muslim women, her nakedness is only between her navel and knees. As for what is above that, such as her chest, it is permissible for her to uncover it in front of them, as often happens with nursing women. As for if she is in the presence of:

    1. a non-Muslim woman, or
    2. a Muslim woman who is wicked through extramarital sexual intercourse (Ar. zina), or
    3. a Muslim woman who is wicked through lesbianism,

    then it is not permissible for her to expose any of her body except that which shows during work, this being: her head, neck, arms up to the upper arms, and legs up to the knees (Tuhfa, 7.194,200). However, it is better for her to cover herself [m: more than what is strictly required] because a non-Muslim or wicked woman might describe her to a man who is not permitted to look at her.

    Amjad Rasheed
    Amman, Jordan
    (Translated by Moustafa Elqabbany)

    The shaykhs in saudi often claim to be following the hanbali madhhab as Ibn Taymiyah was hanbali,

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1316&CATE=88 - Being Hanbali: A Muslim Woman's Awrah In Front of Non-Muslim Women

    for general prupose,

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=2039&CATE=128 - The Fiqh of Covering One's Nakedness (Awra): A Detailed Explanation




    -------------
    Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


    Posted By: Hayfa
    Date Posted: 02 April 2007 at 6:38am

    I know its totally not the topic but i was watching news couple of days ago and they were showing how Pakistani President wants an enlightened and modern religion. Next news was Jamia' hafsah's students kidnaping three women for indecent behaviour and forcing them to obey shari'a laws, common muslims taking the law into their hands and giving it name of sharia'a. I was just thinking we have become an ummah of two extremes. I dont know why i thought of that reading this thread .

    Well I am in Pakistan right now so it is big news.. at least for a couple of days. And interestingly I walked by the Madrasah the other day.

    I say, if they were a brothel, which they do deny, I think they should kidnap men who are going in and embarrass them!

    There is alot of poverty here and you chances are those women, if they are prostitutes know no other life and no other way to make money. Those men would have money. They should not be going to spend it on a prostitute. And I bet you most are married. And then they take some disease home to their wives and she has the shame of it.

    Most women are getting diseases in most parts of the world from their partners who cheat. :(

    The problem is not "modernization" of religion,but educating people. 50% of the people and 65% of women here do not have a basic education. Hard to know what the Quran says if you cannot read and understand it.

     



    -------------
    When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


    Posted By: herjihad
    Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 6:32pm
    Originally posted by fatima

    Bisimillah irrahman irrahim

    Wa'alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu

    As you have made it public so we tell you the reason it was not announced was because we value your membership as you are with the forum for quite long and the matter did not involve another person of the forum. We love you dearly and i am sure you would agree that some times when you get angry there are things said. Scholars are inheritors of Prophets so if we disagree with them, we should say i disagree and thats my opinion and not doubt their sincerity.

    Now on the other hand, according to most of scholars awrah of a muslim woman infront of other muslim women is from her chest to her knees. Ask any scholar other than salafi brothers and they would tell you thats what sharia'h permits. Some might add but the most desired or liked is ........ . Sister instead of fighting over a matter it is best to say difference of opinion.

    I know its totally not the topic but i was watching news couple of days ago and they were showing how Pakistani President wants an enlightened and modern religion. Next news was Jamia' hafsah's students kidnaping three women for indecent behaviour and forcing them to obey shari'a laws, common muslims taking the law into their hands and giving it name of sharia'a. I was just thinking we have become an ummah of two extremes. I dont know why i thought of that reading this thread .

    wassalam

    Bismillah and Salaams,

    So you banned me?  How uncool!!!  And kiddo, when you want to do a favor for someone, especially someone who you respect and care about their feelings and reactions to your actions, it is always a great idea to check and see how they feel about your favor first.

    Because causing someone to disappear is sort of a bigbrother type of thing that doesn't seem cool or copacetic or filled with anything nice to me.  And being as the post I was unjustly and foolishly banned for was right here in this topic, it is relevant.

    Salaams



    -------------
    Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


    Posted By: herjihad
    Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 6:35pm
    Originally posted by rami

    Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

    assalamu alaikum

    The salafi brothers hold extreme views when it comes to matters concerning women,

    This is because I believe that if she will do that in front of her husband, then she will surely also do it in front of other men besides her husband.

    what this shaykh believes is of no importance he has basically said because this is what i believe then according to me only it is haram. Haram and halal are for Allah only this person is also not a mujtahid to infer new things from the Quran and sunnah which is clearly what he is doing except in this case they must be so far fetched he cant even bother to quote a single verse or hadith. The Question asks for evidence but all we get is opinion based on nothing as not one single quote is provided.

    I would like to see the hadith banning modern dancing techniques in front of a womens husband, what else is a women dancing in front of her husband alone for but to arouse and please him. Based on what has he restricted the general permissibility.

    then she will surely also do it in front of other men besides her husband.

    Is there some islamic principle or something that permits this absurd conclusion which is basically the equivalent of saying women can not have relation with there husbands out of fear of having relations with other men. The same things which stop women from sleeping with men who are not there husbands will stop them from dancing in front of strange men.

    Women Covering in Front of Other Women
    Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed

    What is ruling of hijab if a woman is at a women’s gathering? I know it is permissible for her to remove her scarf, but how much of her body can she expose?

    If she is in the presence of trustworthy Muslim women, her nakedness is only between her navel and knees. As for what is above that, such as her chest, it is permissible for her to uncover it in front of them, as often happens with nursing women. As for if she is in the presence of:

    1. a non-Muslim woman, or
    2. a Muslim woman who is wicked through extramarital sexual intercourse (Ar. zina), or
    3. a Muslim woman who is wicked through lesbianism,

    then it is not permissible for her to expose any of her body except that which shows during work, this being: her head, neck, arms up to the upper arms, and legs up to the knees (Tuhfa, 7.194,200). However, it is better for her to cover herself [m: more than what is strictly required] because a non-Muslim or wicked woman might describe her to a man who is not permitted to look at her.

    Amjad Rasheed
    Amman, Jordan
    (Translated by Moustafa Elqabbany)

    The shaykhs in saudi often claim to be following the hanbali madhhab as Ibn Taymiyah was hanbali,

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1316&CATE=88 - Being Hanbali: A Muslim Woman's Awrah In Front of Non-Muslim Women

    for general prupose,

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=2039&CATE=128 - The Fiqh of Covering One's Nakedness (Awra): A Detailed Explanation


    Bismillah and Salaams,

    Brother Rami, are you quietly agreeing with me?  It seems so.  Go ahead; say it louder now.  JAK.



    -------------
    Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


    Posted By: herjihad
    Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 6:36pm
    Originally posted by Hayfa

    I know its totally not the topic but i was watching news couple of days ago and they were showing how Pakistani President wants an enlightened and modern religion. Next news was Jamia' hafsah's students kidnaping three women for indecent behaviour and forcing them to obey shari'a laws, common muslims taking the law into their hands and giving it name of sharia'a. I was just thinking we have become an ummah of two extremes. I dont know why i thought of that reading this thread .

    Well I am in Pakistan right now so it is big news.. at least for a couple of days. And interestingly I walked by the Madrasah the other day.

    I say, if they were a brothel, which they do deny, I think they should kidnap men who are going in and embarrass them!

    There is alot of poverty here and you chances are those women, if they are prostitutes know no other life and no other way to make money. Those men would have money. They should not be going to spend it on a prostitute. And I bet you most are married. And then they take some disease home to their wives and she has the shame of it.

    Most women are getting diseases in most parts of the world from their partners who cheat. :(

    The problem is not "modernization" of religion,but educating people. 50% of the people and 65% of women here do not have a basic education. Hard to know what the Quran says if you cannot read and understand it.

     

    Bismillah and Salaams,

    Dear Sister, thanks for this!  I agree wholeheartedly.  Please continue to share stories with us from Pakistan.



    -------------
    Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


    Posted By: rami
    Date Posted: 04 April 2007 at 3:22am
    Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

    wa alaikum assalam

    Brother Rami, are you quietly agreeing with me?  It seems so.  Go ahead; say it louder now.  JAK.

    which part am i agreeing to and do i have to sign anything

    Disagreement on belly dancing
    Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani

    Some one asked in the hanfi section about one belly dancing to one's spuse in private was haram, the answer was it is haram because it is imitation of people who enjoy haram socialization. I beg to differ from my understanding I have heared and read from more than one source that the orign of belly dancing was to help women in birth delevry as it helps to strengthen certain muscles of body. My question is that some people have adopted belly dancing for haram purposes has made belly dancing a haram action? is it fair to tell women who have practiced bell dancing to help with their birth because some immoral people have used it for wrong?


    Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

    I pray that this finds you well, and in the best of health and spirits. May Allah grant you all good and success in this life and the next.

    What is considered in the Shariah is the general case.

    In the case of belly dancing, the general case is that it is from the ways of the corrupt and immoral. If someone did it (a) in private; (b) for helping with their birth delivery (or such reasons); (c) without copying the lewdness of those corrupt; and (d) without haram music, then it would be permissible in such a manner.

    And Allah alone gives success. Faraz Rabbani

    Previous answer:

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=11112&CATE=88" id="" name="" target=" - Belly dancing for one's spouse




    -------------
    Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


    Posted By: fatima
    Date Posted: 04 April 2007 at 4:56am

    Bismillah irrahman irrahim

    Assalamu alaykum

    [QUOTE=herjihad

    Bismillah and Salaams,

    So you banned me?  How uncool!!!  And kiddo, when you want to do a favor for someone, especially someone who you respect and care about their feelings and reactions to your actions, it is always a great idea to check and see how they feel about your favor first.

    Because causing someone to disappear is sort of a bigbrother type of thing that doesn't seem cool or copacetic or filled with anything nice to me.  And being as the post I was unjustly and foolishly banned for was right here in this topic, it is relevant.

    Salaams 

    Sister caring for some1 does not mean not caring for rules any more regarding that person. It is clearly stated in the rules that scholar bashing is not allowed. In past few months rules were broken left, right and centre and something had to be done about it. Suspension was brought up so every1 is clear about how many chances have they got left. There is no favour specially for you, if the suspension does not require an open anouncement, we would not do that in future as well. I tried to explain why it was done for you, you making it open is your own choice and in future that choice is open to other suspended members too. 

    The moderator team is told that once a fair discussion about any matter is finished among ourselves and decision is made. We dont need to explain the decision to any1 but i have chosen to explain it to have better relations with members not as a favour.

    wassalam



    -------------
    Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


    Posted By: herjihad
    Date Posted: 04 April 2007 at 1:06pm
    Originally posted by fatima

    Bismillah irrahman irrahim

    Assalamu alaykum

    [QUOTE=herjihad

    Bismillah and Salaams,

    So you banned me?  How uncool!!!  And kiddo, when you want to do a favor for someone, especially someone who you respect and care about their feelings and reactions to your actions, it is always a great idea to check and see how they feel about your favor first.

    Because causing someone to disappear is sort of a bigbrother type of thing that doesn't seem cool or copacetic or filled with anything nice to me.  And being as the post I was unjustly and foolishly banned for was right here in this topic, it is relevant.

    Salaams 

    Sister caring for some1 does not mean not caring for rules any more regarding that person. It is clearly stated in the rules that scholar bashing is not allowed. In past few months rules were broken left, right and centre and something had to be done about it. Suspension was brought up so every1 is clear about how many chances have they got left. There is no favour specially for you, if the suspension does not require an open anouncement, we would not do that in future as well. I tried to explain why it was done for you, you making it open is your own choice and in future that choice is open to other suspended members too. 

    The moderator team is told that once a fair discussion about any matter is finished among ourselves and decision is made. We dont need to explain the decision to any1 but i have chosen to explain it to have better relations with members not as a favour.

    wassalam

    Bismillah and Salaams,

    I think you should be banned, personally.  I was not scholar bashing.  That man was attacking our Muslim sisters and to this date all the people who stood up for Muslim Women's Honor have been banned by the moderators!  How outrageous!

    Y'all said you thought you were doing me a favor.  You didn't; you haven't, and I don't think I'd be wise to look for one from any of you.  I'm just your Muslim sister defending the dignity of women and the rules as set out by our Holy Quran. 

    Some people are turning over in their graves to know what that man wrote! 



    -------------
    Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


    Posted By: Alwardah
    Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 12:52am
    Originally posted by rami

    Women Covering in Front of Other Women
    Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed

    What is ruling of hijab if a woman is at a women’s gathering? I know it is permissible for her to remove her scarf, but how much of her body can she expose?

    If she is in the presence of trustworthy Muslim women, her nakedness is only between her navel and knees. As for what is above that, such as her chest, it is permissible for her to uncover it in front of them, as often happens with nursing women. As for if she is in the presence of:

    1. a non-Muslim woman, or
    2. a Muslim woman who is wicked through extramarital sexual intercourse (Ar. zina), or
    3. a Muslim woman who is wicked through lesbianism,

    then it is not permissible for her to expose any of her body except that which shows during work, this being: her head, neck, arms up to the upper arms, and legs up to the knees (Tuhfa, 7.194,200). However, it is better for her to cover herself [m: more than what is strictly required] because a non-Muslim or wicked woman might describe her to a man who is not permitted to look at her.

    Amjad Rasheed
    Amman, Jordan
    (Translated by Moustafa Elqabbany)

    The shaykhs in saudi often claim to be following the hanbali madhhab as Ibn Taymiyah was hanbali,

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1316&CATE=88 - Being Hanbali: A Muslim Woman's Awrah In Front of Non-Muslim Women

    for general prupose,

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=2039&CATE=128 - The Fiqh of Covering One's Nakedness (Awra): A Detailed Explanation


    As Salamu Alaikum

     

    According to this fatwa I can socialise and move around trusted women with the upper part of my body showing, completely uncovered, as nakedness is between the navel and knee, and all I need is to trust the women I am with.

     

    Common sense tells me something is wrong with this fatwa. So where is Haya and modesty? When mothers nurse their young only one breast is uncovered and many women either use a small hand towel or something to cover her breast.

     

    Thanks brother Rami for this enlightening fatwa. Regarding this issue, I would definitely opt for a fatwa of a salafi scholar.

     

    May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us our shortcomings and protect us from our own whims and desires. Ameen!

     

    Wa Alaikum Salam



    -------------
    “Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
    "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


    Posted By: rami
    Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 10:27am
    Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

    assalamu alaikum

    sister the wording of the fatwah is a bit of i agree with you, but that is not what is intended, if you read it carefully the example he gives is of a mother nursing.

    Further more this also covers the occasion of a women seeing a doctor in which case she may at times need to uncover herself, it would not be permissible in cases of non muslim doctors etc etc as the fatwah states.

    I dont apretiate how quickly you moved from a ruling by the madhhabs to endorsing a so called salafi ruling, you could have simply said this particular shaykh must be wrong rather than all three madhhabs and thus further investigated the matter.

    You are not above any mujtahid Imam to easily make such claims nor is any so called salafi shaykh you could quote from as none have ever reached the level of mujtahid to be capable making Ijtihad ie rulings not in conformaty with the madhhabs.

    You are free to follow whom ever you like sister, this is just common sense and nasiha.



    -------------
    Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


    Posted By: Alwardah
    Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 11:48am

    As Salamu Alaikum  Brother Rami,

    Alhamdulillah! We do agree on something.

    I dont apretiate how quickly you moved from a ruling by the madhhabs to endorsing a so called salafi ruling, you could have simply said this particular shaykh must be wrong rather than all three madhhabs and thus further investigated the matter.

    Brother the only reason why I used the term salafi was because this whole thread was about the extreme views of these scholars.

    Personally I take Fatawa from any scholar who can prove his point using the Glorious Qur'an or Sunnah or other renowned scholars. I don’t follow any particular Madhhab.

    Jazakallahu Khairan for the Nasiha brother.

    Wa Alaikum Salam  



    -------------
    “Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
    "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)



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