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Irshad Manji

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=756
Printed Date: 21 October 2014 at 2:13am


Topic: Irshad Manji
Posted By: Israfil
Subject: Irshad Manji
Date Posted: 27 April 2005 at 5:02pm

As'Salaamu Alaikum Wa' Rahmatuallhi Wa' Barakatuh

Yes I'm back writing, but only briefly due to the response of a friend now I wanted to bring up a quick topic that is of interest.

In this discussion I wanted to talk about a Muslim (or so-called) by the name of Irshad Manji. Perhaps misunderstood and perhaps not, one of her compelling books she wrote, titled "the Troubled with Islam" discusses the various troubles within the Muslim Community (Ummah) and the need of reformation of Islam through the Muslim Community. I have not personally read her book due to the fact that she is a self-prescribed "Muslim-Refusenik." By definition "Refusenik refers to one ( a Russian or Jew) who is not permitted to emigrate. The primary basis of this is that she believes that the Islamic family does not believe in rationalizing its own self thus the greater dismay of the community.

She holds the Islamic community to many accounts that are happening in the world, of course, such of these truths are quite evident. Primary topics she discusses in her book are:

1) The objectification of Women in Islam

2) Engagin in the disrespect of Jews and Judaism and the fact that many Muslims engage in such behaviors.

3) The continuence of slavery under the Islamic regimes.

Of course this covers the traditionalist thinking or ijtihad is defined subjectively in her book she recounts her tales as a young girl to adolescence and in her understandings of Islam growing up. Perhaps as a young Philosopher in training she recalls in her own history of how she questioned her Madrassa teacher and his continuing ignoring her questioning. Though I have judged her based on the premise of her asserting that the Muslim community needs reform in interpretating text and law as correct, I believe that her wavering faith and how she is asserting herself is shallow on the basis of experience. Even though faith in the human spirit is as fragile as a flame on a candle such instances should not snuff out the flame of faith based on experience. This is the primary problem of those who have left Islam and why Islam is under the scrutiny that it is.




Replies:
Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 27 April 2005 at 6:09pm

Irshad Manji is a self professed lesbian.  A lot of her anger with Islam seems to stem from the fact that her deviant sexual practice is not accepted by Muslims.

From what I have seen of her on television interviews and programs, her understanding of Islam is not very good at all.  I believe she has the right to question whatever she wishes but her method of grabbing media attention by putting down Islam and Muslims is really very sad.  And of course, the media is only to glad to give her tons of air time.  Her method of questioning her faith is very harmful to the ummah, in my opinion.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 April 2005 at 6:49pm
Hence the response by me in saying that she is judging the Islamic faith based on her own subjective views and experience.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 27 April 2005 at 7:37pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah,

Israfil, first of all, am very happy that you are back. I hope there will not be too many untoward incidences, insha allah. I personally want to thank you for changing your mind. Your presence was grately missed, and Br. Suleyman can confirm to this

No comments on the said woman, as am too slow with ppl in somewhat the lime light.

I would however comment on one of your remarks. Your analogy of faith to the flame of a candle is true, I agree and very much like the metaphor (or was it a similie?).

Brother, i want to state that knowledge kindles knowledge. It is observed in many incidences that the laws in islam are not derived very intelligently, but those who are studying fiqh will be able to tell us a better picture. I read a lot on a fiqh website (sunnipath.com) and have concluded that the scholars of Islam, even to this day, have concrete knowledge, awareness of the society and flexibility of temperament within the limits of Islam - sadly they  are not the ones screeming fatwas.

If we have read something thru a reliable authority, and then read it again said by someone else, it is only a confirmation. On the other hand if one had not heard the concept, it takes time to sink in. What i am trying to say is familiarity with knowledge helps us confirm it in whatever form we encounter it. ( I hope am not confusing you). Just as an example, long ago there was a member, he was a very young man, a student from Iran, who was quite aggressive about Islam (he was not shia). One of his statements was "I have read islam enough, now I want to contradict it, or challenge it" or something like that. We used to have very heated conversations. One day he brought a thread asking why nobody ever married aisha (RA), when she was such a young widow? When he was shown the ayat which says that the wives of the prophet(saw) are your mothers, his tone changed greatly.

So there are ppl who think they know a lot, thus they argue, but when will this fact dawn on them that actually they have got their concepts wrong, we dont know.

Perhaps for us as individuals, who notice these defects in the ummah, may it help us grow stronger in faith, insha allah.

Maa salaama.

Nausheen

 



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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 28 April 2005 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah,

Israfil, first of all, am very happy that you are back. I hope there will not be too many untoward incidences, insha allah. I personally want to thank you for changing your mind. Your presence was grately missed, and Br. Suleyman can confirm to this

always! always!! always!!!...welcome back brother Israfýl



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 28 April 2005 at 5:56pm
Alhamdulilah Sister and Br. Suleyman for your kind remarks,
even though my absence was very short. I agree what you said
concerning the individual who comes to the knowledge of God
through the experience of learning. You made mention that the
implimentation on Shariah Law as well as Islamic
Jurispurdence is not always implimented by those who
understands it. I extend on my metaphor ( you were right it was
a metaphor) as faith is as fragile because in the world today
there are certain local figures in our communities who do not
impliment laws correctly and justly hence the various negative
accounts going on in the world today.

What my problem is with Irshad Manji is that she is using her
apprehended knowledge of the world (not Islam) and allocating
it with the probnlems of Islam and calls for reformation. She is
calling the reformation of how doctrine as well as Fiqh is being
interpreted. However correct she may be on some points I
frankly disagree with her premises in saying that Islam needs to
be reformed. Islam is complete. What may need reformation is
how Islam is conducted by the grand population.

I cannot understand how one individual can use the problems
of the world as something "Islamic" because Islam does not
condone such behaviors as we have explained in perennial
fashion. There are many so-called Muslims who say that they
are rationalist and disagree even with the truest points of Islam,
this we call people who commit bid'ah or innovation on Islamic
principle/practice. I remember a sister I know who told me that
another Muslim-refusenik who at Columbia speaking in a forum
said "We must evaluate the Qur'an with an open-mind and must
interpret doctrine in our own mind."

This may be true in context but in reality (and I shall not
contradict my view on this subject) the Qur'an or it laws cannot
be interpreted or carried out in its fullest since these (doctrines,
laws) came from Divine providence and since these laws are
divine we carry them out to the best of intellectual capacity
through the apprehension of these sacred laws. I believe that to
understand God is to grasp the basic principles of the Qur'an
and Sunnah. More importantly Muslims cannot forget that Allah
does ask us to be rational, just, and kind to those who do not
always accept us. Perhaps what this sister saw was another
world that became hidden behind Islam and mistook such an
illusion as Islam. I have convinced myself that I may read her
book after all to uncover her madness.


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 30 April 2005 at 6:06am

Here is an interesting article by Yasmin Magahed that mentions Manji and the sadly growing phenomenon of the "not too Islamic Muslim":

http://islamonline.net/English/Views/2005/03/aricle02.SHTML - http://islamonline.net/English/Views/2005/03/aricle02.SHTML

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 30 April 2005 at 2:46pm

God's Blessings,

Unfortunately I wasn't able to pyt up the web article you had the link to, is there any other way I could get to the article of interest?



Posted By: Shams Zaman
Date Posted: 30 April 2005 at 3:18pm

Dear Brother and sisters,

These days a lot of propaganda is going on in the Western media regarding the un-compatibility of Islam with the modern progression of human kind. Unfortunately some of the Muslim men and women have also joined the ranks of west in criticizing Islam and calling for reforms due to lack of their knowledge about Islam. There are even some who want to invent Islam according to their own thoughts and some who are paid by the media to project and plant such issues which have never been heard of. Irshad Manji, Tasleema Nasreen, Asma Gul Hasan, Isra Nomani and Amina Wadood are some of the feminist activists who are in the front row of carrying out cynical propaganda against Islam. The basic concept of Manji’s book “THE TROUBLE WITH ISLAM” is to prove that Quran is an outdated book which needs to be re-interpreted in the light of modern Ijthad. Unfortunately she forgets that if Quran is a divine book and free from any kind of error and calling it as outdated means that she refuses to accept it as God’s word. Because if it is from God then it can’t become outdated as God’s knowledge is perfect and human mind can’t overwrite God’s words.

The word Muslim means one who submits his will to Allah’s command. It doesn’t imply that one who finds an instruction or order against his wish or will he has the right to temper it or to replace it as per his / her own mindset. If that be the case he or she is free to accept or choose another religion which suits him / her. As a Muslim we have to submit to basic Islamic principles otherwise we have the choice to become an atheist or adopt any other religion. There are numerous places where we are given options to choose but there is no question of compromise on basic Islamic beliefs and principles.  

So these so called reformists have the option to adopt any other religion as by defying the basic Islamic principles they are anything but Muslims. If they feel that Islam is un-compatible with the modern western values and that this world is the only place where they are living and that there is nothing known as Hereafter then they have the right to choose the way which suits them. They can become lesbians or gays or heterosexual or whatever and surely we will be told in the hereafter of our deeds.     

Shams Zaman  Pakistan



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smszmn72@yahoo.cm


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 01 May 2005 at 4:28am

The article "Not-Too-Islamic Muslims" got moved from the home page of that site.   Try going to: http://www.islamonline.net - http://www.islamonline.net , then, under Muslim Affairs in the left column, click on Views and Analyses.  Then, scroll down to Read Also.  The article can be found listed there.

Or, go to that site, type in "not too Islamic Muslims" in search bar.  Scroll down to Record(s) found in Views - 142, and click on that.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 01 May 2005 at 11:10am

Alhamdulilah I read the article and I liked what it was talking about Ummziba that was a great article to post. I wanted to add that the article brought up some good points. First point wa that to those outside the fold of Islam i.e. Non-Muslims who view the world in a dualistic form i.e. Moderate Extremist would see such a so-called Moderate such as Irshad Manji as a moderate because she expresses her isolated beliefs by dropping the central tenants of Islam and questioning them at the same time.

How is it that such a person who questions the justice of Islam not practice the implimentation of that? I remember reading some excerpts from her book that we should question the Qur'an. I would pick a better word such as examining the Qur'an as far as the truths embedded in each word. But how can such a person who call herself Muslim be so focused on centralizing other issues beyond the important issues such as being an upright Muslim? I believe the problem with Muslims (not Islam) is that we have issues concerning implimentation of the Qur'an and its dialects.

Ummziba from what you said earlier if it's true, if she is a professed lesbian then this totally discredits her and isolates her as far as being a Muslim from the rest of those who are practicing Muslims. Funny how such a person can totally discredits Islamic practice by questioning the central parts of faith yet claims to follow them at the same time.

 



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 01 May 2005 at 1:27pm

Israfil,

I am glad you enjoyed the article.  Unfortunately, it seems to be true; at least if you watch what is reported in the western media, there are a lot of "not so Islamic Muslims".  Of course, they feed on that and pick up every (in their eyes) 'moderate' who will go on air and say things against Islam.

Yes, I have heard from her own lips (Manji) on television, that she is a lesbian.  I do think that is the cause of a lot of her frustration with Islam.  Sadly, I have also seen on television, a documentary about a self professed imam who is gay and who leads prayer for a mixed community of gay and lesbian 'muslims'.  This program was on a channel in Canada called Vision T.V. - it is a multifaith religious channel. 

This program about the homosexual 'muslim' community showed how other faiths were so open to this (sadly mislead) group of people.  Some, a mixed group of Christian persons, even sharing iftar with them during Ramadan!  The show made it sound like the Muslim community at large were backward and extremist for not accepting these homosexuals!

It seems to me that pretty well every 'muslim' I've seen saying bad things about Islam, have been people who don't want to follow the tenents of the faith (for example, praying 5 times a day, dressing modestly, denouncing homosexuality [or alcohol, or mixed socializing, and so forth]).  I think perhaps they try to justify their actions by finding some fault with Islam, instead of with themselves.

Perhaps in trying to find fault with Islam, these people (like Manji), make themselves feel better about not being 'muslim' enough.  Another possibility is that some of them (especially Manji) may have just discovered an easy way to get their "15 minutes of fame" and make a quick buck too!

It is all viewed by non-Muslims as proof that Islam must be "bad", because they see so many of them in the media saying so.  The media would far rather put a 'moderate muslim' on air who will bash Islam than one who says we must follow our faith (ie. prayer, fasting, zakat, hajj, moderate dress and staying away from alcohol, dating, etc.).  This is what the non-Muslim public wants to hear (the so called 'moderates').  I think the public wants to believe that Islam is bad and they love to hear Muslims saying so.  After all, Islam bashing is really in with non-Muslims right now.

It is all really very sad.  Muslims who follow their faith need to speak up!

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 02 May 2005 at 4:24am

Peace all,

I had to leave in a hurry yesterday, still wanted to say a few things.  Shams Zaman, you are so right to point out that there are so many 'muslims' bashing Islam these days in the western media.  Why is this?

It seems the media would far rather print/air a story about a 'muslim' who has bad things to say about Islam than any story about the goodness of Islam or happy, satisfied Muslims.  I think this is because the general public does not want to hear good things about Islam.  As long as they keep hearing bad things they can justify hating Islam and Muslims.

It seems so sad to me that someone can be so lucky as to be born into a Muslim family and then grow up to reject it.  Why does this happen?  Do their parents/family not teach them properly about Islam? Does their Muslim community fail them in some way?  What can we Muslims do about this?

For one thing, I believe we need to speak up.  We can't just sit quietly on the sidelines and watch the world slowly start to hate us, even to the point that Muslims themselves are questioning their faith.  We need to support one another and teach one another what we know of our faith.

I know one thing, people like Manji make me very sad.  Their portrayal of Islam in the public media is aweful, it makes us all look bad.  By saying nothing are we condoning what people like her say?  Non-Muslims have no idea that the things people like her say are not correct, they take it as truth.

How do we "fix" this problem of Islam bashing?  How and where do we speak up?  Are we failing our Muslim children by not teaching Islam correctly to them or by not being good role models?  Are we failing our Muslim community by not speaking out and supporting one another?  Are we failing Allah Almighty by not strivinig hard enough to be good Muslims?

So many questions, such a complicated issue.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: nadir
Date Posted: 02 May 2005 at 10:04am

 

Assalaamu Alaikum

 

Peace Ummziba

 

“It seems so sad to me that someone can be so lucky as to be born into a Muslim family and then grow up to reject it.  Why does this happen?  Do their parents/family not teach them properly about Islam? Does their Muslim community fail them in some way?  What can we Muslims do about this?”

 

If I may please offer a brief explanation of why I perceive this to be happening in the West.

 

When a Muslim family immigrates to a western country they do so (and are) largely unawares of, the way that particular society ‘teaches/trains/conditions’ it’s people. This may result in parents correctly teaching their children (Islam), however if they are oblivious to the ways their children are been manipulated (by the society at large), they may be unaware of how to overcome that manipulation.

nadir

 



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 02 May 2005 at 10:24am
Originally posted by nadir

 

If I may please offer a brief explanation of why I perceive this to be happening in the West.

When a Muslim family immigrates to a western country they do so (and are) largely unawares of, the way that particular society ‘teaches/trains/conditions’ it’s people. This may result in parents correctly teaching their children (Islam), however if they are oblivious to the ways their children are been manipulated (by the society at large), they may be unaware of how to overcome that manipulation.

 

Peace,

That just might be a reasonable explanation for part of the problem.  I have noticed that my dear immigrant friends are blissfully unaware of the mores and norms of western society.  I try hard to help them with this.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 02 May 2005 at 4:23pm

Sad indeed

 



Posted By: Shams Zaman
Date Posted: 06 May 2005 at 3:12pm

As said by Brother Nadir: (Quote)

When a Muslim family immigrates to a western country they do so (and are) largely unawares of, the way that particular society ‘teaches/trains/conditions’ it’s people. This may result in parents correctly teaching their children (Islam), however if they are oblivious to the ways their children are been manipulated (by the society at large), they may be unaware of how to overcome that manipulation.

That's true but yet there are other reasons. Actually I live in Pakistan which got independence in 1947 from the British. Similarly lot of Arab countries remained under the foreign occupation tii the end of WW-2. The West continued what Muslims did earlier that was to seek advancement in science and technology. This occupation and advancement caused some of Muslims to suffer from inferiority complex. So once west started to criticize Islam or Islamic customs and beliefs these persons ashamed of their Islamic belifs while hungry for respect in the Westren circles, not only adopted apologetic stance but also started to criticize Islam in a unique fashion.

They even went to extent where being a Lesbian (for Irshad Manji), bearing an illegitamate child (by Isra Nomani), leading a mixed congergation (for Amina Wadood) or being a gay (For Asma Gul Hasan) was perfectly alright for a Muslim.

Secondly they say that they believe in the life in the hereafter but their actions speaks that they consider it as a cock and bull story. Because had it been the case they would have prefered the etarnal life over this worldly life.

Shams Zaman   Pakistan. 



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smszmn72@yahoo.cm


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 07 May 2005 at 4:08am

Brother Shams you have 'hit' me with a great truth that I had previously not contemplated. The idea that someone can want to be so much like those they admire instead of who they really are!  This is a good explanation for why some of the Muslims might have turned from the ummah and begun to criticize.

This is probably a fairly common human condition.  I now consider my own father.  Born in Canada of immigrant parents.  Married a 'white' english speaking lady.  Moved to the 'white' english speaking end of the city.  Raised his 'white' english speaking family and hung out with his 'white' english speaking friends.  In doing this he has denied his children and their children part of their heritage, a second language and a culture to be proud of.  Now I see how easy it can be for humans to reject what and who they are to try so hard to be something/someone that they admire instead!

Thank you for the insight!  And may Allah save us all from the sins of envy and self-loathing.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 20 May 2005 at 2:00pm

Assalamu alaikum,

Irshad Manji is at it again!  Of all the Muslims in Canada, the Toronto Star newspaper chose to run an opinion piece by her on the alleged desecration of the Qur'an by Americans.  This is just one of her quotes:

"One can appreciate the Qur'an's inherent worth, as I do, while recognizing that it contains ambiguities, inconsistencies, outright contradictions - and the possibility of human editing."

Good grief!!!

The whole article can be found at http://www.thestar.com - www.thestar.com .  Type in "Riots and rage won't salvage Islam's honour" in the 7 day search bar (the article appeared on May 19).  Click on the one with that title that says [opinion] beside it.

*Note: you might have to become a member to log in and read the article (it is free), though they used to allow you so many "free" reads before asking that you become a member.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 21 May 2005 at 12:26am

Es_Selam'un Aleykum Brother ShamsZaman,

 Congratulations!,wise words...



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Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 06 November 2012 at 6:38am
I'm impressed by Irshad Manji's capability for critical thinking, independent thought, and rejection of blind submission and mindless repetition of dogma.

A great sign of hope!



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 06 November 2012 at 7:07am
Muslim "reformer" and lesbian activist......A great sign of hope?


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 06 November 2012 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

I'm impressed by Irshad Manji's capability for critical thinking, independent thought, and rejection of blind submission and mindless repetition of dogma.

A great sign of hope!
 
I attended one of her talks here in Edmonton a few years back, excellent speaker.  She took a short 10 minute break halfway through her talk, where she played a tape of some of the messages that have been left on her answering maching.  The messages were hilarious in their ignorance, I don't think any of the people who left the messages have ever been accused of being too smart... 


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 06 November 2012 at 3:55pm
History is replete with excellent speakers some moral and others immoral, however always nice to have an entertaining speaker to make us roar with laughter.


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 07 November 2012 at 10:01am
Originally posted by abuayisha

always nice to have an entertaining speaker to make us roar with laughter.
 
Yes, I agree.
 
It is said that the one thing Satan cannot stand is to be laughed at.  When we laugh at hate crazed religious fanatics such as the ones who left the messages on Irshad's answering machine, we are in effect laughing at Satan, surely a worthwhile activity.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 07 November 2012 at 2:14pm
Yeah I read an interesting book on genocide, and what a shame upon humanity as to what disagreements can lead to.  What you and I can laugh at, or agree to disagree, can have deadly consequences in other quarters.  You may even say, Satan laughing at them.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 13 November 2012 at 8:03am
I just finished her 2004 book "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" and ordered her 2011 book "Allah, Liberty and Love: The Courage to Reconcile Faith and Freedom".

Irshad Manji is an intellectual giant. She is both a visionary and a very practical person. She is also a practicing Muslim who wants to reconcile Islam and the Age of Enlightenment (which started in the Golden Islamic Age). And she identified one of the root causes for the numerous troubles Muslims run into:

Dogmatic Islam is about repression of other viewpoints.

We have to fight a disease called dogmatism, which is the practice of pronouncing one's beliefs with rigid, arrogant certainty. Absolute certainty to be precise.

It is a sad reality that most followers of mainstream Islam are not capable of independent thought. Mainstream Islam gets reduced to memorizing dogmas and copying rituals. But intellectual Muslims want to be more than religious robots who repeat phrases like 'music is haram' or 'wives have to obey their husbands'.

How do most Muslims deal with intellectual giants like Irshad Manji? They attack her as a person. They attack her character. They attack her life style. They don't engage in a debate. They don't try to find counter-arguments to the arguments she makes. Many probably don't even understand her arguments.

I would love to meet Muslims on Islamicity actually willing to engage in debates. It is not necessary to agree with everything Ms. Manji says. I don't. But I do agree with many of her views and proposals for a better future.

So if a debate about her viewpoints get reduced to 'she is a lesbian' (ergo she can't be right), well, to me that's a sign of intellectual bankruptcy.

So, please, somebody out there, please take the time to think about what she is saying and then explain why you agree or disagree. Who has actually read one of her books? Or at least a summary?

To me, the best part is chapter 7, which is about how a reform of Islam can be supported with concrete actions. Here are some examples:

1) Female entrepreneurship based on microcredits as suggested by Nobel Prize winner Muhammad Yunnus
2) Use of media to create secular mindsets in Islamic countries and a culture of debate and disagreement
3) Expose Saudi Arabia financing dark ages thinking around the world
4) Try Muslim leaders grossly violating human right in International Courts
5) Organize an Abrahamic Hajj
6) Organize cooperation between Sunni and Shiite and Sufi intellectuals
7) Encourage liberal non-Muslims to end blind multiculturalism



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt



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