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"First Edition" Quran

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Discription: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7421
Printed Date: 18 April 2014 at 6:51am


Topic: "First Edition" Quran
Posted By: StephenC
Subject: "First Edition" Quran
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 6:49am

What would an authenicated "first edition" Quran be worth?

What would it be worth if it was different than the currently used version of the Quran?

If an authenicated "first edition" of the Quran was found to differ significantly on specific issues then the currently used version, which should be destroyed (if any)?




Replies:
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by StephenC

What would an authenicated "first edition" Quran be worth?

I can tell you know, it is/will be priceless, it is an antiquity of this world's history. 

What would it be worth if it was different than the currently used version of the Quran?

Currently used version? what version would that be ?

If an authenicated "first edition" of the Quran was found to differ significantly on specific issues then the currently used version, which should be destroyed (if any)?

"Currently used version" is matched with what you call "first edition" not the other way around. Any so called current edition that is not matched with the original/first copy will most likely be destroyed.

Oh and you need to match it with the arabic language not english

If you truly want to get technical then the first edition would be the oral edition before print edition. 



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by StephenC

What would an authenicated "first edition" Quran be worth?

What would it be worth if it was different than the currently used version of the Quran?

If an authenicated "first edition" of the Quran was found to differ significantly on specific issues then the currently used version, which should be destroyed (if any)?

Keep the warrning given to you by peacekeeper in mind as you start this thread. 

If you have a point, then make it and stop wasting the forum's time. 



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: StephenC
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 7:16pm

I will try it simpler.

The oldest complete Qur'an was written approximately two hundred years after the death of Muhammad.  NO known Quran was written during Muhammad's lifetime.  If a newer version of the written Quran was found (or has been found) and it differs from the current version, it would be (or has been) destroyed.

I find it strange that such an important Islamic written text as a "first edition" would not have been preserved.  Lesser books of older ages have been preserved.

I hope that makes my point clearer.  If not, just ignore this post.



Posted By: StephenC
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 7:17pm

Angel, I am sorry I did not answer your question:

"Currently used version? what version would that be ?"

The version that everyone is currently using.  I admit it could be the only version.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 02 November 2006 at 6:30am
Originally posted by StephenC

I will try it simpler.

The oldest complete Qur'an was written approximately two hundred years after the death of Muhammad.

I believe you need to get your facts right, in another thread you say 100 years, now in this its 200 years ??

NO known Quran was written during Muhammad's lifetime.

That is because it was in oral transmission, re-read fatima's post about this in the other thread 'I came back to islam'.

If a newer version of the written Quran was found (or has been found) and it differs from the current version, it would be (or has been) destroyed.

There is no new version of the qu'ran, there is only an original/earliest surviving book AND that is not mentioning the one that God holds  but i won't go there and confuse you more  will stick with earthly materials. (yes I am finding this ridiculous).

Stephen it is stated that anyone tries to produce any new qur'ans IT WILL be matched to the oldest surviving written qu'ran which is exactly as is when in oral transmission from Muhammad. This is how if any tries to make another it will be found out to be false and that will be destroyed. 

I find it strange that such an important Islamic written text as a "first edition" would not have been preserved.  Lesser books of older ages have been preserved.

re-read my above post again.

It has been preserved, that is what i am saying to you. the qu'ran of today is the same as what you call "first edition" - the oldest surviving qu'ran. There are no other editions/versions - translations in other languages yes but that is all.

 

Originally posted by StephenC

The version that everyone is currently using.  I admit it could be the only version.

LOL!

Are you serious ??

No wonder Andulas is having a hard time.

Stephen I think you need to take a break and ponder on the stuff you have already.  because i can see you heading for a fall.

I mean no offence but i just think you need to take one thing at a time. To learn anothers beliefs/religion you need to put aside your own beliefs otherwise you will not be objective enough. Fair enough you don't believe certain things but you cannot say that so and so cannot believe in something because you see something as wrong according to you.

You believe in hell and the devil, I don't with either. I don't believe scriptures are from God, I can share what i believe in but i won't tell others that they have to or must believe in it, and that is what you are doing, telling others to believe otherwise thinking that you know better - how can you do that if you no little about islam and its history ? (quoting one source is not enough) This is your mistake and this is why Andulas has been on your back!   

I mean no offence just giving some advice.  



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: ejdavid
Date Posted: 02 November 2006 at 9:24am
Andalus etc

The modern Koran includes diacritcal marks and other artifacts of modern Arabic that did not exist in The Proffet's time. I know of only one Koran in existance from antiquity, and that one is controversially housed out of sight in, I believe, Yemen. I do not know if it had diacritical marks etc or not.

However, any Koran that includes modern Arabic artifacts is, by definition, a translation of the original.


Posted By: StephenC
Date Posted: 02 November 2006 at 8:23pm

Originally posted by ejdavid

Andalus etc

The modern Koran includes diacritcal marks and other artifacts of modern Arabic that did not exist in The Proffet's time. I know of only one Koran in existance from antiquity, and that one is controversially housed out of sight in, I believe, Yemen. I do not know if it had diacritical marks etc or not.

However, any Koran that includes modern Arabic artifacts is, by definition, a translation of the original.

Thank you for posting an established fact that certain people apparently can not accept!



Posted By: StephenC
Date Posted: 02 November 2006 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by Angel

[QUOTE=StephenC]

I will try it simpler.

The oldest complete Qur'an was written approximately two hundred years after the death of Muhammad.

I believe you need to get your facts right, in another thread you say 100 years, now in this its 200 years ??

[quote]

"This eighth century manuscript from Mecca or Medina is one of the two oldest known existing copies of the Quran."

"In 632, just three years later, he was suddenly taken ill and on June 8 of that year, with his third wife 'Aishah in attendance, the Messenger of God "died with the heat of noon."

Both quotes are from   http://www.Islamicity.com - www.Islamicity.com History of Islam

What is the math?  It could be as low as 100 years or approximately 200 years depending on when in the eighth century it was written.



Posted By: StephenC
Date Posted: 02 November 2006 at 8:39pm
Stephen wrote:
Quote:
NO known Quran was written during Muhammad's lifetime.

Angel responded: "That is because it was in oral transmission, re-read fatima's post about this in the other thread 'I came back to islam'."

But http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com History of Islam states:

"With great difficulty, the task was carried out and the first complete manuscript compiled from "bits of parchment, thin white stones - ostracae - leafless palm branches, and the memories of men." Later, during the time of 'Uthman, the third caliph, a final, authorized text was prepared and completed in 651, and this has remained the text in use ever since."

So at least parts of the Quran was written down (on parchment) prior to the "final" (if there is only one would the better word be "only" instead of "final" be more appropriate?) "authorized" text (again that appears to indicate unauthorized text!)

On another side, did the committee do a rough draft first (what happened to it).

Also Uthman "Realizing that the original message from God might be inadvertently distorted by textual variants, he appointed a committee to collect the canonical verses and destroy the variant recensions. The result was the text that is accepted to this day throughout the Muslim world." http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com History of Islam

So would it be contrary to this paragraph to deduce that between the death of Muhammad and Uthman's committee's work, there were "textual variants" and "variant recensions" or is http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com posting anti-islamic material?



Posted By: StephenC
Date Posted: 02 November 2006 at 8:46pm

Angel wrote:

"There is no new version of the qu'ran, there is only an original/earliest surviving book ..."

Where is that "original/earliest surviving book"?  What happened to the first copy that was produced by Uthman's committee back around 640 AD?

By the way, no one (except you) is talking about a "new version of the Quran."  I was talking about a surviving copy produced prior to the 8th century that may or may not be exactly like the later copy.



Posted By: StephenC
Date Posted: 02 November 2006 at 8:57pm

Angel wrote:

"To learn anothers beliefs/religion you need to put aside your own beliefs otherwise you will not be objective enough. Fair enough you don't believe certain things but you cannot say that so and so cannot believe in something because you see something as wrong according to you. "

First I am taken to task because I do NOT state my beliefs, then I am taken to task because I did state my beliefs.  Now you imply that my beliefs keep me from being objective.

Ok, please explain to me how my beliefs have anything what so ever to do with the fact that the Quran was compiled by a committee who (according to http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com ) decided what went into it and what did not go into it.  And the "first edition" copy of this (and all those written after it until the 8th century) was destroyed?



Posted By: StephenC
Date Posted: 02 November 2006 at 9:06pm

Angel wrote:

"I can share what i believe in but i won't tell others that they have to or must believe in it, and that is what you are doing, telling others to believe otherwise thinking that you know better ...

Where have I told others what to believe or not believe?

I am merely pointing out issues that I see with Islam.  Issues that if they are left unresolved distracts from the message of the Quran!



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 03 November 2006 at 6:11am

StephenC,

You are just repeating the same thing over and over again. You have already got enough warnings. You jump from topic to topic without listening to responses. You raise a question, and when you receive a response, you ignore that and jump to another question, and create another thread. So many threads you created without having any willingness to engage in interfaith discussion, and still keep blaming Islam for all your problems without any evidence.



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Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13



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