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Australian PM condemns sheik’s sermon

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Regional
Forum Name: Asia-Pacific
Forum Discription: Asia-Pacific
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7350
Printed Date: 31 October 2014 at 7:05pm


Topic: Australian PM condemns sheik’s sermon
Posted By: Angel
Subject: Australian PM condemns sheik’s sermon
Date Posted: 25 October 2006 at 10:26pm
PM condemns sheik's sex sermon
Elicia Murray
October 26, 2006 - 3:02PM
 

Prime Minister John Howard today condemned remarks by a senior Islamic cleric likening immodestly dressed women to meat that attracted cats.

"They are appalling and reprehensible comments," Mr Howard told reporters on a drought inspection tour of western NSW.

"They are quite out of touch with contemporary values in Australia.

"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous.

"I not only reject the comments, I condemn them unconditionally."

Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilaly's reported comments, made in a Ramadan sermon, compared women who wore make-up and dressed immodestly to meat that attracted cats.

He blamed women who "sway suggestively" and who wore make-up and no hijab (Islamic scarf) for sexual attacks.

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" he said.

"The uncovered meat is the problem.

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

Mr Howard said the sheik's remarks clearly related to a "particularly appalling" rape trial in Sydney.

Asked if the sheik should resign, Mr Howard replied: "It's not for me to say what position he should hold in the Islamic faith.

"But it is for me as Prime Minister to say I totally reject the notion that the way in which women dress and deport themselves can in any way be used as a semblance of justification for rape."

A Muslim leader has likened the comments to Pope Benedict XVI's recent speech about Islam that provoked violent street protests.

The former chairman of the Prime Minister's Muslim Community Reference Group, Ameer Ali, said the comments were similar to those in a speech which the Pope gave last month in which he quoted a 14th-century emperor regarding Muslims. The Pope later apologised.

"The Pope used an inappropriate quotation and people said he should be removed from the papacy and something inappropriate has happened here also," Dr Ali told smh.com.au.

"It's unfortunate that he used this colourful terminology to describe the dangers in dressing provocatively."

However, he said the cleric did not condone rape and Australian women should not be insulted.

Other Muslim leaders have called on the sheik to clarify his comments, which a newspaper report said were delivered in a Ramadan sermon to 500 worshippers in Sydney last month.

The cleric said that he meant to refer to only prostitutes as meat, and not any scantily clad woman without a hijab.

The Islamic Council of NSW dubbed the comments as "un-Islamic, un-Australian and unacceptable".

A spokesman for the council, Ali Roude, today said he was "astonished" at Sheik al Hilaly's comments, saying he "had failed both himself and the Muslim community".

"While we respect the rights of any Australian citizen to freedom of speech, there is a further responsibility upon our civic leaders, be they religious, political or bureaucratic, to offer appropriate guidance to the people under their care," Mr Roude said.

"The comments widely reported today do no such thing."

Sheik al Hilaly had seriously misrepresented the teachings of Islam in his comments, which were offensive to both sexes, Mr Roude said.

The comments also showed a deep misunderstanding of rape and personal violence, which Mr Roude described as "crimes of power".

"As a father, brother and son myself, I take offence at the portrayal of both men and women in the alleged published comments."

Mr Roude said he had known Sheik al Hilaly for many years and was deeply disappointed he had made the remarks, which were in no way shared or endorsed by the council.

Former secretary of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Shujat Mantoo said the sheik was "probably out of line", but he defended his right to stay in Australia.

"There would be many people like [the sheik] who uphold those views, and there would be among mainstream Christians, but we don't simply deport them. We educate them," Mr Mantoo said.

The sheik's comments have drawn strong criticism from some federal politicians and the federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward.

"It is incitement to a crime. Young Muslim men who now rape women can cite this in court, can quote this man ... their leader in court," she told the Nine Network.

"It's time we stopped just saying he should apologise. It is time the Islamic community did more than say they were horrified. I think it is time he left."

NSW Premier Morris Iemma denounced the sheik for his "outrageous" comments and called on the Muslim community to take action against him.

"He ought to be held account for his comments," Mr Iemma said. "What's in the papers this morning are offensive and outrageous and ought to be condemned and retracted. He does not have a flash record as far as these sorts of statements."

Treasurer Peter Costello branded the comments "totally unacceptable".

He called for Muslim leaders to condemn the comments, disassociate themselves from them, and pull their leader into line.

The Treasurer said comparing women to uncovered meat invited people to treat them in a degrading and dehumanising way.

He said the leaders of Catholic and the Anglican churches in Australia would never make such a comment.

"This is totally unacceptable. This is comparing women to uncovered meat," Mr Costello told the Seven Network.

"We really need political leaders to speak out against it.

"But I hope that the moderate Muslim leaders will speak out today and condemn these comments.

"Make it clear to Muslims that this is not the view of Islam and that they will really take some kind of action to disassociate themselves from the comments which Sheik al Hilaly has made.

"And take some action to try and pull him into line."

Mr Costello said that, in light of a series of Sydney gang rapes in 2000 committed by young Muslim men, the sheik's message was dangerous because it seemed to justify rape.

"If you have a significant religious leader like this preaching to a flock in a situation where we have had gang rapes, in a way that seems to make it justifiable, or at least lighten the dehumanising and degrading extent of the offence, then people that listen to that kind of comment can get the wrong idea.

"They can actually think that it is not as bad as it is."

- with AAP

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sheik-blasted-for-sex-sermon/2006/10/26/1161749218913.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap3 - http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sheik-blasted-for-sex-se rmon/2006/10/26/1161749218913.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap 3



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~



Replies:
Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 25 October 2006 at 10:39pm
why isnt anyone talking about camp jesus ?

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Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 25 October 2006 at 10:52pm
What's the big deal, anyway? Since when did Western women start caring about their modesty. How does it matter if their "modesty" is outraged? I bet they liked getting raped.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 25 October 2006 at 11:29pm

Originally posted by candid

What's the big deal, anyway? Since when did Western women start caring about their modesty. How does it matter if their "modesty" is outraged? I bet they liked getting raped.

HOW DARE YOU?????  

NO ONE LIKES GETTING RAPED WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GOING ON ABOUT!

Attitdues like yours Candid is why non muslims continue with misunderstanding about islam and continue to hate it!

How does it matter if their modesty is outraged???, it matters like the hijab!

you're unbelievable i cannot believe what you said but then again it seems it is only muslims (well some) that make such a remark! I haven't come across any other group of people who makes these.

Yes I am outraged! I have a right to be, just like muslims are outraged about not wearing hijab!



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 25 October 2006 at 11:47pm
maybe he meant: Dont put yourself in compromising position.



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Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 12:56am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by candid

What's the big deal, anyway? Since when did Western women start caring about their modesty. How does it matter if their "modesty" is outraged? I bet they liked getting raped.

HOW DARE YOU?????  

NO ONE LIKES GETTING RAPED WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GOING ON ABOUT!

Attitdues like yours Candid is why non muslims continue with misunderstanding about islam and continue to hate it!

How does it matter if their modesty is outraged???, it matters like the hijab!

you're unbelievable i cannot believe what you said but then again it seems it is only muslims (well some) that make such a remark! I haven't come across any other group of people who makes these.

Hahahahahahahaha

What BS? what it has to do with my being Muslim. Historically, christians/westerners have been (and continue to be) lot more barbaric and murderous than the Muslims. If that's the reason you (and other non-muslims) claim to hate Islam that is an outright lie. Its just a pretext to cover your xenophobia.

American soldiers have a record of the indulging in such activities wherever U.S bases have been established. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1898004.stm - An american soldier was jailed for just 32 months for raping a japenese women. By the way, why the disparity in punishment of non-muslim and muslim rapists in Australia/United States?

I think that only chaste women can be emotionally hurted through rape. I thought it won't matter to Australian women getting raped because they are unchaste anyway. How can their "modesty" be possibly outraged? They themselves don't value it.

 



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 2:59am

Salaams and Bismillah,

Well, I'd like to hear what the people at the Austrailian mosque who heard this are saying.

His metaphor was incorrect and just a really bad metaphor all around.  It seems to reveal that he believes that if a woman is scantily dressed, it is an obvious and definite consequence that she be attacked.  The reality is that women are attacked no matter what we wear.  An aggressive, violent person is that way because they are.  Maybe it was their repressive upbringing.  Maybe not.

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

Ak -- elaborate please.  Jesus camp?  It sounds like a fundamentalist Christian gathering.

I would vote him out, but I'm not in that congregation.



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 3:34am

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

And I don't care, what you think. If you agree with me good for you. Otherwise, its your problem.

BTW, if no one disagrees with what the other says, then perhaps we don't need a discussion forum.



Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 3:40am

Originally posted by Angel

Yes I am outraged! I have a right to be, just like muslims are outraged about not wearing hijab!

Do whatever you want. You have the right to whine. So do I have the right to ignore you.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 5:17am
Originally posted by herjihad

Salaams and Bismillah,

Well, I'd like to hear what the people at the Austrailian mosque who heard this are saying.

Don't know if anyone there comes here  but I do know from the news reports that muslim women leaders and other muslim women also condemn what the sheik mentioned whether they wear veil or not, as well as other male muslims. One muslim woman that come onto the a current affairs program tonight mentioned that being covered is not a deterent but more of a spiritual and personal issue. My kind of woman :), its what i've been saying along that being covered/modest is not going to stop.  

His metaphor was incorrect and just a really bad metaphor all around.  It seems to reveal that he believes that if a woman is scantily dressed, it is an obvious and definite consequence that she be attacked. 

I would vote him out, but I'm not in that congregation.

This isn't the first time he's been under fire

The iman granted an interview with A Current affairs program. I have no transcript don't think it has come thru yet even if there is one but here's a latest report from ninemsn.

 

Sheik to stay but apologises for offence

Thursday Oct 26 19:21 AEST

Australia's senior Muslim cleric cannot be sacked or deported despite the outrage caused by him saying immodestly dressed women invite sexual attacks.

Sheik Taj Aldin Alhilali "unreservedly" apologised for any offence caused to women by his comments, made in a Ramadan sermon last month.

But he said he had been misunderstood and added: "I had only intended to protect women's honour."

The mufti of Australia and New Zealand is under intense pressure from within the Muslim community over the sermon in which he likened scantily-dressed women to uncovered meat eaten by animals.

Many Muslim leaders and groups distanced themselves from his remarks and some called for their religious figurehead to stand down.

Five Muslim leaders at Gallipoli Mosque in Sydney's west said many Muslims were "sick and tired" of religious leaders like Sheik Alhilali claiming to speak on their behalf.

"Whether he steps down or not, I think it's time for Australia's Muslim faith to have a religious leader who has a better understanding of Australian laws, Australian values, and the Australian way of life," said Alia Karaman, one of three women in the group.

A former member of the federal government's Muslim Advisory board, Iktimal Hage-Ali, said she had listened to a recording of Sheik Alhilali's speech and believed he should be stripped of his position.

"I was just flabbergasted," she told ABC radio.

Prime Minister John Howard labelled Sheik Alhilali's comments "appalling and reprehensible".

"They are quite out of touch with contemporary values in Australia.

"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous."

Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward suggested the sheik be dumped or deported, saying: "I think it is time he left."

But, as an Australian citizen, the mufti cannot be deported and in his position as Islam's most senior religious figure in Australia, he is not answerable to any organisation.

The Egypt-born imam came to Australia in 1982 and cannot have his citizenship revoked.

He was appointed mufti by Australia's peak Islamic body, the Federation of Islamic Councils of Australia (FICA), 15 years ago, but no-one has the authority to sack him.

"Nobody can sack him because it's not an elected position," said Amir Ali, the chairman of the Prime Minister's Muslim Community Reference Group and immediate past president of FICA.

The Lebanese Muslim Association (LMA) can withdraw his right to speak at Sydney's Lakemba Mosque, where he preaches, but has given him "the benefit of the doubt" until it reviews the tape of his contentious sermon.

Sheik Alhilali appeared badly affected by the backlash to his remarks, with a spokesman saying he was depressed and confined to bed all day, breathing with the assistance of an oxygen tank.

The storm of outrage followed The Australian newspaper's translation of his speech last month.

According to the translation, Sheik Alhilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat.

"The uncovered meat is the problem.

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (Islamic headscarf which covers the hair neck and shoulders), no problem would have occurred."

In a statement later, the sheik apologised but said the translation misrepresented his intentions.

He also rejected calls from across the Muslim and non-Muslim community to retract his comments.

In the statement, he said his speech related to religious teachings on modesty and did not condone rape.

"I condemn rape and reiterate that this is a capital crime," he said.

He also told the Nine Network he would not resign, and that he believed he had the support of Australia's Muslim community.

He added: "It's a woman's prerogative and right to dress how she wishes in this society - nobody can force or expects to force or compel a woman to dress in a particular way."

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=70792 - http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=70792


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 5:33am
Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by candid

What's the big deal, anyway? Since when did Western women start caring about their modesty. How does it matter if their "modesty" is outraged? I bet they liked getting raped.

HOW DARE YOU?????  

NO ONE LIKES GETTING RAPED WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GOING ON ABOUT!

Attitdues like yours Candid is why non muslims continue with misunderstanding about islam and continue to hate it!

How does it matter if their modesty is outraged???, it matters like the hijab!

you're unbelievable i cannot believe what you said but then again it seems it is only muslims (well some) that make such a remark! I haven't come across any other group of people who makes these.

Hahahahahahahaha

What BS? what it has to do with my being Muslim. Historically, christians/westerners have been (and continue to be) lot more barbaric and murderous than the Muslims. If that's the reason you (and other non-muslims) claim to hate Islam that is an outright lie. Its just a pretext to cover your xenophobia.   

American soldiers have a record of the indulging in such activities wherever U.S bases have been established. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1898004.stm - An american soldier was jailed for just 32 months for raping a japenese women. By the way, why the disparity in punishment of non-muslim and muslim rapists in Australia/United States?

I think that only chaste women can be emotionally hurted through rape. I thought it won't matter to Australian women getting raped because they are unchaste anyway. How can their "modesty" be possibly outraged? They themselves don't value it.

what has the majority of the above reply got to do with anything of the topic?? amercian soliders??? historically christians/westerners??

YOU have no clue do you?

Candid did you know that this sheik was also addressing muslim women, in no where written or on tv or by the shiek himself was there a distinction between Australian non muslim women and Australian muslim women??

By the way, why the disparity in punishment of non-muslim and muslim rapists in Australia/United States?

oh i don't know, PERHAPS ITS A DIPORABLE AND DISPECCABLE ACT!!! DONE BY ANYONE!!! 

Also i said i never hated islam but by the comments that some muslims make along with yours - yes I can understand why some people misunderstand islam and hate it.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 5:41am
Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Angel

Yes I am outraged! I have a right to be, just like muslims are outraged about not wearing hijab!

Do whatever you want. You have the right to whine. So do I have the right to ignore you.

yes i have the right to whine just like muslims are about their choice of clothes  

 

Originally posted by candid

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

And I don't care, what you think. If you agree with me good for you. Otherwise, its your problem.

BTW, if no one disagrees with what the other says, then perhaps we don't need a discussion forum.

wow  your attitude is really something  

You should care Candid but i guess you don't, I guess you don't care what kind of projection you put onto islam and muslims, you want people to know what islam is, well i hope they do not learn from you. 



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 5:43am

Assalamu Alaikum,

From islamic point of view, modest dress code has many benefits including the fact that the honour and dignity of women could be protected to a much higher degree. I don’t mean that rape could not happen when one is dressed modestly, but yes, it could be eliminated or minimized.

At the same time, rapist is a rapist, no matter who is the victim whether one wears modest dress code or not. And rapist should be punished, and in fact, in Islam, rape and adultery are serious offenses.

I am happy that Shaikh apologized, and hope that it would calm down the situation .

I also hope that this event will not be used for political gains. Australian PM joined hands with war party, against the wish of millions of Australians, and is, therefore, responsible for the deaths of hundreds and thousands of people in the ongoing genocide in the Muslim lands; his hands are full of blood.

Finally, I have noticed that there has been many violations of guidelines in this thread. Please read guidelines before posting anything further.

Peace



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Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 8:48pm

Originally posted by Angel

Candid did you know that this sheik was also addressing muslim women, in no where written or on tv or by the shiek himself was there a distinction between Australian non muslim women and Australian muslim women??

And I also meant unchaste women, Muslim or non-muslim, it does not matter to me. If the Sheikh would have made the similar comments about nuns I would have opposed him.

And yes, if you continue to attack me personally, I can also counter-attack and consequently, the direction of discussion/arguement in this thread will get diverted. So, I suggest  you restrain yourself.



Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 26 October 2006 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by candid

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

And I don't care, what you think. If you agree with me good for you. Otherwise, its your problem.

BTW, if no one disagrees with what the other says, then perhaps we don't need a discussion forum.

wow  your attitude is really something  

You should care Candid but i guess you don't, I guess you don't care what kind of projection you put onto islam and muslims, you want people to know what islam is, well i hope they do not learn from you. 

Really?? Well, there are certain values which we cannot compromise upon irrespective of what you think of us. I think Muslim should stop caring about what others say and do what they think is right. If we need to make changes we should do it independently of what others tell us to do. No amount of a  appeasement or compromises can satisfy the non-muslims until we foresake our religion.



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 October 2006 at 12:58am
Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by candid

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

And I don't care, what you think. If you agree with me good for you. Otherwise, its your problem.

BTW, if no one disagrees with what the other says, then perhaps we don't need a discussion forum.

wow  your attitude is really something  

You should care Candid but i guess you don't, I guess you don't care what kind of projection you put onto islam and muslims, you want people to know what islam is, well i hope they do not learn from you. 

Really?? Well, there are certain values which we cannot compromise upon irrespective of what you think of us. I think Muslim should stop caring about what others say and do what they think is right. If we need to make changes we should do it independently of what others tell us to do. No amount of a  appeasement or compromises can satisfy the non-muslims until we foresake our religion.


What certain values ? be more specific--we(who R we) you are talking about? If you are speaking for a group you need to say which one, so your authority is weighted & recognized accordingly. If you are speaking for yourself, and itching for big time argument with sister herjihad on this issue, think again you are in for a surprise. There will be more votes with her than with you. So better behave

IMHO the Sheikh injecting into on this rotten gang rape scenarios  indicates that how messed up priorities of the Muslims' involved in  general and this sheikh in particular are?

So you think these gang bangers are your Muslims brothers-- Not mine! What would you do when they end up in a slammer?
Originally posted by candid

I think Muslim should stop caring about what others say and do what they think is right.

Can you describe what is right in your mind, you don't come out as caring individual btw
Originally posted by candid

If we need to make changes we should do it independently of what others tell us to do.

What changes do you have in mind and would you imlement? can you count some independent Muslims places for me to be practical and sincere?
And also I am sorry if these rapist alley CATS were Sheikh's flock-- nothing to be proud off!!
The Muslims are fighting the trivial battles likes of this and Niqab's in England while the significant issues such as educational/economic/political independence of Muslim people in Muslim countries are being overlooked all over.
Originally posted by candid

No amount of a  appeasement or compromises can satisfy the non-muslims until we foresake our religion

Seems like you haven't read the history and are behind the curve, I think Muslim forsook it long ago and paid the price in defeat of Muslim Caliphate and rest in colonial bondage. Now they are trying to crawl  back from the hole of bondage in scatter brained fashion and it is not working yet. And for sure they are not going anywhere with the issues like this thread. Wake up n smell coffee
Salam


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 27 October 2006 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by candid

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

And I don't care, what you think. If you agree with me good for you. Otherwise, its your problem.

BTW, if no one disagrees with what the other says, then perhaps we don't need a discussion forum.

wow  your attitude is really something  

You should care Candid but i guess you don't, I guess you don't care what kind of projection you put onto islam and muslims, you want people to know what islam is, well i hope they do not learn from you. 

Really?? Well, there are certain values which we cannot compromise upon irrespective of what you think of us. I think Muslim should stop caring about what others say and do what they think is right. If we need to make changes we should do it independently of what others tell us to do. No amount of a  appeasement or compromises can satisfy the non-muslims until we foresake our religion.


What certain values ? be more specific--we(who R we) you are talking about? If you are speaking for a group you need to say which one, so your authority is weighted & recognized accordingly. If you are speaking for yourself, and itching for big time argument with sister herjihad on this issue, think again you are in for a surprise. There will be more votes with her than with you. So better behave

IMHO the Sheikh injecting into on this rotten gang rape scenarios  indicates that how messed up priorities of the Muslims' involved in  general and this sheikh in particular are?

So you think these gang bangers are your Muslims brothers-- Not mine! What would you do when they end up in a slammer?
Originally posted by candid

I think Muslim should stop caring about what others say and do what they think is right.

Can you describe what is right in your mind, you don't come out as caring individual btw
Originally posted by candid

If we need to make changes we should do it independently of what others tell us to do.

What changes do you have in mind and would you imlement? can you count some independent Muslims places for me to be practical and sincere?
And also I am sorry if these rapist alley CATS were Sheikh's flock-- nothing to be proud off!!
The Muslims are fighting the trivial battles likes of this and Niqab's in England while the significant issues such as educational/economic/political independence of Muslim people in Muslim countries are being overlooked all over.
Originally posted by candid

No amount of a  appeasement or compromises can satisfy the non-muslims until we foresake our religion

Seems like you haven't read the history and are behind the curve, I think Muslim forsook it long ago and paid the price in defeat of Muslim Caliphate and rest in colonial bondage. Now they are trying to crawl  back from the hole of bondage in scatter brained fashion and it is not working yet. And for sure they are not going anywhere with the issues like this thread. Wake up n smell coffee
Salam

Salaams and Bismillah,

Dear Brother Sign*Reader,  Jazzak Allah Khayr, and I was extremely glad to read your measured and thoughtful repsonse to Canned.   In Shah Allah, he will think about each thing you said and rethink his position.

We all need to allow ourselves room to grow as humans and Muslims. 

And on this issue, we all have sisters and children and mothers and nieces and aunts.  Nobody should have metaphors applied to them like this misguided brother in Austrailia has applied to all uncovered women, which broadly included all women who uncover their hair. 

This kind of attitude reminds us of the Israelis who hate all Arabs such as Lieberman.  It's just hate talk.  It's nothing new, and we need to strive to work together, help each other, and forgive each other.  All of us. 



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 29 October 2006 at 6:35am

Assalamu Alaikum,

The Sheikh has realized his mistake, and apologized. Therefore, he should not be subjected to ongoing media onslaught. The disproportionate negative media coverage about him gives the impression to the rest of the world that that is what Islam and Muslims stand for.

Yes, I would be against him until he apologizes, but as soon as he does realize  the mistake, I would treat him as my Brother in Islam. And this concept of mercy and compassion in Islam extends to everyone in humanity.

And in these times when media selectively magnifies news to project Islam and Muslms in negative light, we should understand the direction of the wind, and take appropriate and unified position to safeguard the interest of us all.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 30 October 2006 at 2:55am

This kind of attitude reminds us of the Israelis who hate all Arabs such as Lieberman.  It's just hate talk.  It's nothing new, and we need to strive to work together, help each other, and forgive each other.  All of us. 

Liberman is notable for his racist views. There is nothing to suggest that Imam holds racist view, therefore the comparision is wrong.

Imam didn't say anything wrong, inititially but he should have anticipated the reaction of the people to what he said.



Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 30 October 2006 at 3:10am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by candid

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

And I don't care, what you think. If you agree with me good for you. Otherwise, its your problem.

BTW, if no one disagrees with what the other says, then perhaps we don't need a discussion forum.

wow  your attitude is really something  

You should care Candid but i guess you don't, I guess you don't care what kind of projection you put onto islam and muslims, you want people to know what islam is, well i hope they do not learn from you. 

Really?? Well, there are certain values which we cannot compromise upon irrespective of what you think of us. I think Muslim should stop caring about what others say and do what they think is right. If we need to make changes we should do it independently of what others tell us to do. No amount of a  appeasement or compromises can satisfy the non-muslims until we foresake our religion.


What certain values ? be more specific--we(who R we) you are talking about? If you are speaking for a group you need to say which one, so your authority is weighted & recognized accordingly. If you are speaking for yourself, and itching for big time argument with sister herjihad on this issue, think again you are in for a surprise. There will be more votes with her than with you. So better behave

I meant 'we' as Muslims. My post was to Angel who is a non-muslim.

Irrespective of what we believe our values are, we should not decide on our values just to please the non-muslims. There can be differences amongst Muslims I accept (and I am not always right, I admit) but the differences had to be resolved irrespective of what the non-muslims tell us to do.

The rest of your post is irrelevant (its centred around me, really can't understand what happened to forum rule of 'no personal attacks').

 

 

 



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 30 October 2006 at 5:22pm

Salaams and Bismillah,

Some guys will never understand the evil that they do to women.  Jazzak Allah Khayr to Brother Sign*Reader again.  I take what the sheikh and people here who don't understand this issue at all, personally.

Cann DID, you refuse to think about what the Brother said to you.  That's up to you.  I recommend your canning of posting priviledges to the adminstrator, who seems to agree with you, because of your senseless verbal attacks on all women.  Read what we have discussed on this topic before.  None of the sisters in that discussion agree with you.  I reiterate this because it is important for anyone reading this to know that your cruel and unwise views on innocents attacked by others harms all of us.

The sheikh apologized?  That's nice.  He should be fired as the leaders of the Islamic organizations in Austrailia have themselves recommended.  A person with such a high position should show better sense in his public speeches.  And that metaphor, I've heard it before; haven't you?  He didn't make it up.  And it's sad that noone is willing to admit to that in our community.

Brothers need to protect the sisters instead of using us as bait or for target practice. IstagfirrAllah.



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 30 October 2006 at 8:36pm

Brothers need to protect the sisters instead of using us as bait or for target practice. IstagfirrAllah.


Chaste women don't have anything to fear.

And, where did I attack 'all women'? I only oppose the right of shameless women to dress indecently.



Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 30 October 2006 at 8:44pm

I reiterate this because it is important for anyone reading this to know that your cruel and unwise views on innocents attacked by others harms all of us.

How does that harms you? What you think harms you just because of that will harm you anyway. Because what I said cannot harm you.

The sheikh apologized?  That's nice.  He should be fired as the leaders of the Islamic organizations in Austrailia have themselves recommended.

His first mistake was that he did not anticipate the reaction of what he said. His second mistake was that he apologised.



Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 1:45am

Okay, I admit I used harsh language. That is because I don't like Angel's attitude here. This is an Islamic forum. I don't like non-muslims to question Islam or Muslims here. I don't think that is unfair because no one is preventing non-muslims from doing that in their own forum or some other forum of their choice. Muslims come here to discuss their religious issues. Muslims don't come here to be insulted or provoked. Non-Muslims are welcome here if they come here to learn about Islam or meaningfully discuss about Islamic issues as Duende and Angela do.

That does not mean that they have to agree to everything what Muslims say; but, atleast they can be silent if they can't help provoking or insulting us. If they disagree with us they should not insult us.



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 2:48am
Originally posted by candid

Okay, I admit I used harsh language. That is because I don't like Angel's attitude here. This is an Islamic forum. I don't like non-muslims to question Islam or Muslims here. I don't think that is unfair because no one is preventing non-muslims from doing that in their own forum or some other forum of their choice. Muslims come here to discuss their religious issues. Muslims don't come here to be insulted or provoked. Non-Muslims are welcome here if they come here to learn about Islam or meaningfully discuss about Islamic issues as Duende and Angela do.

That does not mean that they have to agree to everything what Muslims say; but, atleast they can be silent if they can't help provoking or insulting us. If they disagree with us they should not insult us.

Salaams and Bismillah,

Thanks for admitting that you were unduly harsh, Brother.  Please continue to think about the comments Brother Sign*reader and I made here and read the section where we discussed this issue before on this site.

Angel may become a better Muslim than any of us one day.  Allah, The All-knowing has this in His hands.  But I do agree that the moderators job should be to protect Muslims from senseless villification on this site.  As an attitude of respect towards each other should be engenedered and encouraged as well.   It's a volunteer job.  They do the best they can.



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by candid

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

And I don't care, what you think. If you agree with me good for you. Otherwise, its your problem.

BTW, if no one disagrees with what the other says, then perhaps we don't need a discussion forum.

wow  your attitude is really something  

You should care Candid but i guess you don't, I guess you don't care what kind of projection you put onto islam and muslims, you want people to know what islam is, well i hope they do not learn from you. 

Really?? Well, there are certain values which we cannot compromise upon irrespective of what you think of us. I think Muslim should stop caring about what others say and do what they think is right. If we need to make changes we should do it independently of what others tell us to do. No amount of a  appeasement or compromises can satisfy the non-muslims until we foresake our religion.


What certain values ? be more specific--we(who R we) you are talking about? If you are speaking for a group you need to say which one, so your authority is weighted & recognized accordingly. If you are speaking for yourself, and itching for big time argument with sister herjihad on this issue, think again you are in for a surprise. There will be more votes with her than with you. So better behave

I meant 'we' as Muslims. My post was to Angel who is a non-muslim.

Irrespective of what we believe our values are, we should not decide on our values just to please the non-muslims. There can be differences amongst Muslims I accept (and I am not always right, I admit) but the differences had to be resolved irrespective of what the non-muslims tell us to do.

The rest of your post is irrelevant (its centred around me, really can't understand what happened to forum rule of 'no personal attacks').


 This "we" represent Muslims of which hamlet and what country? Who died and left you in charge to speak for all Muslims. You can't even show your location and you like to represent Muslims opinion!  The attitude is appalling and sanctimonious which is in direct contradiction to Allah directed method of calling people to goodness:
 Q16:125>>Call unto the way of Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way.

Originally posted by candid

Irrespective of what we believe our values are, we should not decide on our values just to please the non-muslims.

This is a moronic argument, ever wonder why George's call out of Islamofascism. It really doesn't matter what you say on the net debate cos I always considered it running of a Special Olympics. ISLAMIC VALUES ARE TIME CONSTANT LAID DOWN IN PERSPICUOUS QURAN, NEITHER YOU NOR ANYBODY AROUND YOU WHEREVER WILL GET TO  DECIDE SOMETHING ANEW IN DARK AND IN SECRET. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.
Your suggestion of pleasing the non Muslims, is preposterous and lame.
You just are NOT allowed to criticize, malign your neighbors in Islam. If you can not dawah the community for better by example you ought to  move out of there otherwise speak well or should keep quite.
Originally posted by candid

There can be differences amongst Muslims I accept (and I am not always right, I admit) but the differences had to be resolved irrespective of what the non-muslims tell us to do.


There is no difference to resolve, it is a reactionary approach to spin by the thin skinned insecure so called Muslims. It is that simple. The shiekh got carried away with his not knowing his place in the scheme of things.
I don't know if you are in Australia but it begs a question--how 1.5% Muslim population of Australia can make an impact on the rest by being judgmental while in process losing the womens support?. Now sheikh is out his job for not following Quranic guidelines and embarrassing the fellow Muslims.
It is proverbial "Living in Rome and fighting with Pope" and then complain about the consequences.
Originally posted by candid

The rest of your post is irrelevant

It was in response to your judgmental  opinions so think before you post.


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 31 October 2006 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by herjihad

Salaams and Bismillah,

Some guys will never understand the evil that they do to women.  Jazzak Allah Khayr to Brother Sign*Reader again.  I take what the sheikh and people here who don't understand this issue at all, personally.


Salaamoalaikum
Thanks Sister for your kindness; I felt it necessary to put my 2 cents against the  charade on this thread. I am not surprised about this  judgemental and mysaginistic attitude, it is nothing but a ghetto mentality rather than solidly Quran & Sunnah based thinking. IMHO the colonial baggage is hindering the reconstruction of Islamic thought and evolutionary process necessary to develop the proper Momin  personalities.


-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by candid

Okay, I admit I used harsh language. That is because I don't like Angel's attitude here.

Really that is no excuse.

You don't like my attitude here, well I did not like yours and I believe they were more than harsh. I responded to you (as with herjihad) because your remarks about women, not just to non muslims BUT also to muslim women were ignorant and unacceptable/insulting. The issue as i have stated before there are many muslims who disagree with you, And with topic a lot of muslims here in Australia have done the most outcry and asked for this cleric to resign. The muslims in the state of Victoria actually don't listen to the cleric. The sheikh of England who is here visiting believes he needs to step down.

I tried to present to you and others what is happening in Australia about and within the muslim ummah and what muslims are saying.

I know the media can get carried away and not be fair at times but here the media has shown both sides from the muslim community both with those who are with the shiekh and those who disagree, both sides have come on camera on the news - don't you think that is good?

 

This is an Islamic forum. I don't like non-muslims to question Islam or Muslims here. I don't think that is unfair because no one is preventing non-muslims from doing that in their own forum or some other forum of their choice.

Now about all this just above, I have presented my views on this in comments and complaints section but will say again for you Candid. Tell me, how are non muslims suppose to learn about islam and muslims? You never learn just by listening/reading, you need to get into discussions to furthur your learning and most of all understanding and guess a lot of times its also from ordinary and everyday interacting with others. If you don't question, then you might just get wrong learning and understanding. My biggest learning has been from talking/discussing and questioning! I believe it is incorrect not to discuss! I will always question things. AND this forum is for ALL to come here. About the insults, muslims can be insulting to at times, at times i see it as worst than from the non muslims.



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by candid

His first mistake was that he did not anticipate the reaction of what he said.

Perhaps.

But for someone who has been here for 28 years and has been in a highest position in the islamic community here since the 80's would have known the reaction. 

His second mistake was that he apologised.

Why was it a mistake



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by candid

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by candid

Oh, Candid, get lost.  Nobody here agrees with what you said. 

And I don't care, what you think. If you agree with me good for you. Otherwise, its your problem.

BTW, if no one disagrees with what the other says, then perhaps we don't need a discussion forum.

wow  your attitude is really something  

You should care Candid but i guess you don't, I guess you don't care what kind of projection you put onto islam and muslims, you want people to know what islam is, well i hope they do not learn from you. 

Really?? Well, there are certain values which we cannot compromise upon irrespective of what you think of us. I think Muslim should stop caring about what others say and do what they think is right. If we need to make changes we should do it independently of what others tell us to do. No amount of a  appeasement or compromises can satisfy the non-muslims until we foresake our religion.


What certain values ? be more specific--we(who R we) you are talking about? If you are speaking for a group you need to say which one, so your authority is weighted & recognized accordingly. If you are speaking for yourself, and itching for big time argument with sister herjihad on this issue, think again you are in for a surprise. There will be more votes with her than with you. So better behave

I meant 'we' as Muslims. My post was to Angel who is a non-muslim.

Irrespective of what we believe our values are, we should not decide on our values just to please the non-muslims. There can be differences amongst Muslims I accept (and I am not always right, I admit) but the differences had to be resolved irrespective of what the non-muslims tell us to do.

The rest of your post is irrelevant (its centred around me, really can't understand what happened to forum rule of 'no personal attacks').


 This "we" represent Muslims of which hamlet and what country? Who died and left you in charge to speak for all Muslims. You can't even show your location and you like to represent Muslims opinion!  The attitude is appalling and sanctimonious which is in direct contradiction to Allah directed method of calling people to goodness:
 Q16:125>>Call unto the way of Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way.

I am a Muslim, I have stake here, I have the right to propose what I think is right for the Muslims as a whole. Nothing in what I wrote, suggested that I want to enforce my views over the all of the Muslims. It was a suggestion. Other Muslims can follow it or not.  BTW, I am from India. You want my address too? If its really that important for you.


Originally posted by candid

Irrespective of what we believe our values are, we should not decide on our values just to please the non-muslims.

This is a moronic argument, ever wonder why George's call out of Islamofascism. It really doesn't matter what you say on the net debate cos I always considered it running of a Special Olympics.

That betrays your obsequity to your non-muslim masters. Blame the victim for the oppression.

ISLAMIC VALUES ARE TIME CONSTANT LAID DOWN IN PERSPICUOUS QURAN, NEITHER YOU NOR ANYBODY AROUND YOU WHEREVER WILL GET TO  DECIDE SOMETHING ANEW IN DARK AND IN SECRET. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

That's what everyone says. But clearly there are major differences amongst Muslims and those have to be resolved. It should not be done just to conform to what the non-muslims tell us to do.


You just are NOT allowed to criticize, malign your neighbors in Islam. If you can not dawah the community for better by example you ought to  move out of there otherwise speak well or should keep quite.
Originally posted by candid

There can be differences amongst Muslims I accept (and I am not always right, I admit) but the differences had to be resolved irrespective of what the non-muslims tell us to do.

Before you lecture me about dawah, it will be better you understand that dawah does not mean entertaining or charming the non-muslims through flattery for personal benefits.


There is no difference to resolve, it is a reactionary approach to spin by the thin skinned insecure so called Muslims. It is that simple. The shiekh got carried away with his not knowing his place in the scheme of things.
I don't know if you are in Australia but it begs a question--how 1.5% Muslim population of Australia can make an impact on the rest by being judgmental while in process losing the womens support?. Now sheikh is out his job for not following Quranic guidelines and embarrassing the fellow Muslims.

I am not in Australia. The Sheikh's mistake was in not anticipating the reaction to what he said. But what he said was not wrong. I was wrong in saying 'I bet they liked it', and that was because I don't like non-muslims to whine in this forum, I wanted to tell them that I ignore them. However, other Muslims also took offence to that.

It is proverbial "Living in Rome and fighting with Pope" and then complain about the consequences.

When in pigsty, you want to live as the pigs do? Go ahead, its your choice.

Originally posted by candid

The rest of your post is irrelevant

It was in response to your judgmental  opinions so think before you post.

To rephrase, your obsession with me is irrelevant to this discussion. You agree with me or not, stick to the issue. If you want to discuss about me start a new thread.



Posted By: proud ozy
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 8:18am

 how dare anyone dictate the rights of one country when they are in fact a "visitor" to that country and expect that country to change especially when that country has welcomed one by way of immigration status; with pockets of righterous people actually breaking the laws by wanting to live the way they do in there own country. If any one person doesn't like the ways in which they live then change your surroundings, country or way of life! A good example of this is when "outsiders" as described by some, visit countries that have strict cultural requirments that have to be abided by all, other wise you are simply not allowed entry or forced to abide by the laws of that country.

I am discusted in comments posted in the form of "western girls deserve to be raped" that is a threatening statement that is not welcomed in any religion or race!!! 

Administrator- such statements should have been deleted according to your rules & regs as they are immorale and threatening!!



Posted By: proud ozy
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 8:25am
Originally posted by candid

Okay, I admit I used harsh language. That is because I don't like Angel's attitude here. This is an Islamic forum. I don't like non-muslims to question Islam or Muslims here. I don't think that is unfair because no one is preventing non-muslims from doing that in their own forum or some other forum of their choice. Muslims come here to discuss their religious issues. Muslims don't come here to be insulted or provoked. Non-Muslims are welcome here if they come here to learn about Islam or meaningfully discuss about Islamic issues as Duende and Angela do.

That does not mean that they have to agree to everything what Muslims say; but, atleast they can be silent if they can't help provoking or insulting us. If they disagree with us they should not insult us.

 

Do we not live in a free world to preech what we believe in?? I thought that is what this forum is about?

As mentioned above to discuss issues & talking points & not to express threatening words or statements to another!




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