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Fundamentals of organzed religion

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Discription: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6594
Printed Date: 25 October 2014 at 12:26am


Topic: Fundamentals of organzed religion
Posted By: anon123
Subject: Fundamentals of organzed religion
Date Posted: 29 August 2006 at 8:02pm
Let me start off with the fact that I consider myself as agnostic (i.e, i do not follow one particular belief system). The questions regarding the meaning of our existance have puzzled mankind from the beginning of time. Religion has been an important part of society in known history. Organized religions have the following two elements:

1) Belief in the existance of a creator (God)
2) Belief that a particular way of life (i.e religion) is what is required of us to follow.

The mysteries surrounding 1) are so complex and complicated that no one has come up with enough evidence to disapprove the existance of God. Neither have anyone come up with enough evidence to support the existance of God. Getting both elements right at the same time has a very small probablity. Look at it from a cat's prespective. A cat cannot learn how to drive a car since the skills required are beyond it's intelligence. Surely as humans, we must have a boundry to our intelligence too and there is a possibility that the question of existance of God is beyond our understanding. However, let's just put that question aside and assume that God exists.

This still leaves us with the second element; which is the way of life that God wants us to follow. This question has its own complexities. There have been thousands of religions in history and even today there are hundreds of religions. The followers of each specific religion blindly believe that their religion is the right. Understanding that part is somewhat easier. It involves social perception; a persons beliefs and opinions are mostly formed by the belief system of the society that surrounds him. A person growing up in an Islamic society or a christian society for that matter would see the beliefs that he grew up with as more appealing and hence would choose to follow the religion practiced by his society or people the person grew up with. Surely there are exceptions where people convert from one religion to another but that number is small and I am just considering the broader picture here.
All three major religions (Islam, Christianity , Judasm) share one common belief. The belief says that if you follow the basic elements of that religion you would eventually go to heaven (Belief in one God and last prophet in Islam, Belief in Jesus as the Lord in Christianity, and belief in being the chosen one in Judasm). All three religions contradict each other atleast on this matter.
Since this is an Islamic forum, I will talk about the Islamic belief system. As it is said, whoever believes in one God and his last Prophet will eventually go to heaven. Looking at it from the social perception's point of view, a person who is born in a muslim culture will most definately follow this belief blindly. The belief system also says that those who do not believe in one God and his last prophet will be in hell for eternity. If we were to believe that the people who were born in a muslim family were lucky then that in a way contradicts the Islamic teachings as they take every human being as equal. This type of belief more closely resembles the jewish belief system.
Of all the conversations I had with religious people, they all blindly followed their religion and for them, there was nothing better out there. They would conclude with the statement that I would eventually find out that their religion was correct in my afterlife.
In Islamic mythology, there is a story regarding a prophet who saw a person sitting under a tree praising his creator using wordly elements (e.g I wish I could prepare a nice meal for my creator). The prophet scolded the person for making such remakrs. Later on, it is said that God told the prophet that it was inappropriate to scold that guy as he was praising his creator in his own manner and that was appreciable.

That story is very appealing to me. I consider myself as a humanist. I believe that morals are innate and choosing right over wrong using your own morals would be far more appreciated by my creator rather than doing something out of the fear of hellfire. My reasons for doing the right things (Charity, helping people who are in need etc) are based on my own morals. However, a theist would still argue that I would burn in hellfire for eternity for not following a particular religion.

Please don't take me as being critical. I am writing this post to get opinions from scholars. Perhaps someone can help me resolve my misunderstandings and confusion.



Replies:
Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 01 September 2006 at 9:33am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi, well i dont think you will get a scholarly view here, for that you have to ask a shiekh but i will give you opinion of a common muslim inshaAllah.

first of all i dont think your views are critical at all, its inquisitive nature of human being which helps you seek the truth. Your first concept of islamic teaching that only followers of Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam are entitled to enter Paradise is a misunderstanding. We as muslims believe that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala sent Prophets alehimus salaam to every nation in different times and our Prophet was last. The true followers of those prophets will all go to paradise by the will and leave of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Basic thing is having belief in oneness of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. If you never associated anyone with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala through out your life and did good but was not sure about other matter of religion then it is between you and your Lord. Scholars have discussed it for centuries and it stays that the reasons which stopped you following the Prophet of your time would need to be explained to your Lord. He is Most Just Judge and would never wrong anyone so no one can discuss beyond this because no one knows.

Second point which you raised is being born in a muslim family and its similarity to concept of 'chosen one'. Stats show that in US alone, about 100,000 people each year revert to islam. Islam does not say that to be a muslim you have to be born in a muslim family, there is no concept of chosen one. Yes people who are born in muslim family have more advantage but people like salman rushdi are too born in muslim family. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not prefer people because of thier lineage, its thier piety that matters to Him. Many hundred and thousands of born mulsim know nothing about thier religion and thier reckoning is going to be harder as Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala made it so easy for them but it did not avail them anything. In contrast majority of revert muslims are very upright muslims and try thier best to stay on the right path.

Lastly about being a humanist, yes its all right and true relying on your judgement for taking good from where ever you see it. But at the end of the day, humans are short sighted. We cannot see or predict too far in the future. Niether can we be totally selfless to decide for the good of all human race. There are few laws which deal with our creator and if we believe in one creator then next step is to follow the laws which are given to us for our own betterment.

wassalam



-------------
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 10:24am
Originally posted by anon123

A cat cannot learn how to drive a car since the skills required are beyond it's intelligence. Surely as humans, we must have a boundry to our intelligence too and there is a possibility that the question of existance of God is beyond our understanding.


the analogy you used is flawed.  on what basis you propose a boundary to human intelligence?  an invalid cannot walk does not mean that he is not human.

Originally posted by anon123

I believe that morals are innate and choosing right over wrong using your own morals would be far more appreciated by my creator rather than doing something out of the fear of hellfire.


thats what i believe too.  but the fundamental question remains, "what is right and what is wrong?"

for example hindus are defenders and buddhists are endurers though both of their fundamental principle is "ahimsa = non-violence".


-------------
http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: anon123
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by s666

Originally posted by anon123

A cat cannot learn how to drive a car since the skills required are
beyond it's intelligence. Surely as humans, we must have a boundry to
our intelligence too and there is a possibility that the question of
existance of God is beyond our understanding.
the analogy you used is flawed.  on what basis you propose a boundary to human intelligence?  an invalid cannot walk does not mean that he is not human.
Originally posted by anon123

I believe that morals are innate and choosing right over wrong using
your own morals would be far more appreciated by my creator rather than
doing something out of the fear of hellfire.
thats what i believe too.  but the fundamental question remains, "what is right and what is wrong?"for example hindus are defenders and buddhists are endurers though both of their fundamental principle is "ahimsa = non-violence".


Research shows that a dog is more intelligent than a mice, a monkey is more intelligent than a dog and a dolphin is more intelligent than a monkey and a human is more intelligent than a dolphin (maybe i messed up on the order but you get the idea :) ). We are the smartest species and there isn't anything more intelligent than us that we know of with a 100% certainity. Although, using these facts, it would be highly unlikely that our level of intelligence is infinite. If it was, we would have definate answers to all our questions :)
As for the second argument, I know quite a few atheists that do nice things, have nice jobs, give charity etc etc. Where did they get their morals from ? :) In an ideal enviorment, one type of species would always form groups naturally... although, there are circumstances when one kind of species would have differences among themselves and might even attack each other. It is very obvious if we look around us... humans and primitives both follow that.


Posted By: anon123
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by fatima

Bismillah irrahman irrahim


Hi, well i dont think you will get a scholarly view here, for that you have to ask a shiekh but i will give you opinion of a common muslim inshaAllah.


first of all i dont think your views are critical at all, its inquisitive nature of human being which helps you seek the truth. Your first concept of islamic teaching that only followers of Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam are entitled to enter Paradise is a misunderstanding. We as muslims believe that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala sent Prophets alehimus salaam to every nation in different times and our Prophet was last. The true followers of those prophets will all go to paradise by the will and leave of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Basic thing is having belief in oneness of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. If you never associated anyone with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala through out your life and did good but was not sure about other matter of religion then it is between you and your Lord. Scholars have discussed it for centuries and it stays that the reasons which stopped you following the Prophet of your time would need to be explained to your Lord. He is Most Just Judge and would never wrong anyone so no one can discuss beyond this because no one knows.


Second point which you raised is being born in a muslim family and its similarity to concept of 'chosen one'. Stats show that in US alone, about 100,000 people each year revert to islam. Islam does not say that to be a muslim you have to be born in a muslim family, there is no concept of chosen one. Yes people who are born in muslim family have more advantage but people like salman rushdi are too born in muslim family. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not prefer people because of thier lineage, its thier piety that matters to Him. Many hundred and thousands of born mulsim know nothing about thier religion and thier reckoning is going to be harder as Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala made it so easy for them but it did not avail them anything. In contrast majority of revert muslims are very upright muslims and try thier best to stay on the right path.


Lastly about being a humanist, yes its all right and true relying on your judgement for taking good from where ever you see it. But at the end of the day, humans are short sighted. We cannot see or predict too far in the future. Niether can we be totally selfless to decide for the good of all human race. There are few laws which deal with our creator and if we believe in one creator then next step is to follow the laws which are given to us for our own betterment.


wassalam



It may be factual that Islam is the fastest growing religion. It is a very beautiful religion with a lot to offer. Although, would it be fair to use worldy statistics to prove that something is right? There are converts from Islam to other religions and vice versa. Perhaps the number of converts to Islam is higher because it is a great religion and makes more sense.
Perhaps I was wrong about my understanding of Islam that you have to believe in one God and his last prophet to ever see heaven. It makes sense if that is the case... you can go to china from the US if you fly either east or west....


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by fatima

Stats show that in US alone, about 100,000 people each year revert to islam.

Originally posted by fatima

But at the end of the day, humans are short sighted.


dear fatima, the above two statements do not gel well.


-------------
http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by anon123

Research shows that a dog is more intelligent than a mice, a monkey is more intelligent than a dog and a dolphin is more intelligent than a monkey and a human is more intelligent than a dolphin (maybe i messed up on the order but you get the idea :) ). We are the smartest species and there isn't anything more intelligent than us that we know of with a 100% certainity. Although, using these facts, it would be highly unlikely that our level of intelligence is infinite. If it was, we would have definate answers to all our questions :)


it should be remembered that it is only 500 years (or eight lifetimes) since most humans believed the earth was flat and anyone who had the temerity to think otherwise was invariably burnt at the stake!  and until recently, pluto was considered a planet!

Originally posted by anon123

As for the second argument, I know quite a few atheists that do nice things, have nice jobs, give charity etc etc. Where did they get their morals from ? :) In an ideal enviorment, one type of species would always form groups naturally... although, there are circumstances when one kind of species would have differences among themselves and might even attack each other. It is very obvious if we look around us... humans and primitives both follow that.


one need not believe in god to do good, but as i have said the fundamental question remains, "what is good?"


-------------
http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 03 September 2006 at 5:14am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

hi s666, i thought it would be rude not to reply but you know perfectly well that you took what i said out of context and made it look like non-sense. First the stats of reversion to islam could be taken as human being seeing the truth for truth and accepting it. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala requires us to do that and He has put enough wisdom in us to differentiate between truth and falsehood.

Secondly humans been short sighted is regarding the absolute power of law making. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has kept this for Himself knowing humans are not capable of it. Islam tells people to get married and then have physical relationship, islam forbids any ties outside marital bond, islam asks parents to bring up thier kids in best of thier capacity, give them love and security. Kids are told to respect and obey thier parents. This results in formation of good society. A stable home results in up bringing of another stable generation.

Compare this to where humans have taken initiative of not following the law. Kids growing up without a family structure end up playing with guns instead of toys and killing thier fellow class mates, all sort of psychological problems rise in society, old people's homes get filled up because kids dont want parents who dint want them when they were kids.

Hope this makes sense to you.

wassalam



-------------
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 03 September 2006 at 5:20am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi anon, the stats which i shared with you were not to show that this means islam is true religion, islam is a true religion because of its originality and being innate nature of human beings. Those stats were just to say that there is no concept of chosen one in islam as that concept means that you are chose one because you are born with that quality.

The second point of only followers of Prophet Muahammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam entering paradise is bit complicated. I will try to gather all the Quranic verses and ahadith regarding the matter and then inshaAllah try to explain it better.

wassalam



-------------
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 04 September 2006 at 2:26am
Originally posted by fatima

First the stats of reversion to islam could be taken as human being seeing the truth for truth and accepting it. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala requires us to do that and He has put enough wisdom in us to differentiate between truth and falsehood.


dear fatima, i have nothing to do with the stats.

the fundamental question as i have been saying even to anon123 is "what is good and what is not good?",  which can also be put as "what is truth and what is false?"

it will depend on the person and the community he or she has born into.

Originally posted by fatima

Secondly humans been short sighted is regarding the absolute power of law making. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has kept this for Himself knowing humans are not capable of it. Islam tells people to get married and then have physical relationship, islam forbids any ties outside marital bond, islam asks parents to bring up thier kids in best of thier capacity, give them love and security. Kids are told to respect and obey thier parents. This results in formation of good society. A stable home results in up bringing of another stable generation.


and i think we are talking about the ethical system and not the legal system. to quote you.

Originally posted by fatima

Lastly about being a humanist, yes its all right and true relying on your judgement for taking good from where ever you see it. But at the end of the day, humans are short sighted.


different countries have different legal systems.  one cannot say that a country with the best legal system is more stable.  the problem is with the implementation.

can you tell me which country implements hudud?

isn't your signature itself a contradiction which says Allah is forgiving, merciful but where as Allah does not forgive infidels?

-------------
http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 04 September 2006 at 5:22am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi anon, here are those ayaat which i mentioned.

4:48 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

So this ayah makes it perfectly clear that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala forgives every sin other than shirk to whom He wills. But there are other ayaat in the Holy Quran which requires believing in the Prophets alihimus salaam to enter into jannah on the first account on judgement day.

 

Truly, the religion with Allâh is Islâm. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, then surely, Allâh is Swift in calling to account. (Qur'aan 3:19)

 

 [85] And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will NEVER be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. [86] How shall Allâh guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) is true and after clear proofs had come unto them? And Allâh guides not the people who are Zâliműn (polytheists and wrongdoers). [87] They are those whose recompense is that on them (rests) the Curse of Allâh, of the angels, and of all mankind. [88] They will abide therein (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened, nor will it be delayed or postponed (for a while). (Qur’an 3:85-88)

 

So to enter into paradise you need to believe in the ayaat sent by Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala which subsequently means believing in the Messengers alaihimus salaam as they are means to those Holy books. But then you can quote the first mentioned ayah that if Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala wills, He will forgive every other sin than shirk. Many scholars take this as that people who did not associate anyone with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala will get punished for thier wrongdoings but will be entered into paradise later by will of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. You need to ask yourself that if you believe in oneness of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and you are aware of the Messenger alaihis salaam of your time then what is it that’s stopping you from believing and following him.

 

I am not aware of others but this is the easiest concept and faith for me, it tells me that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala wants people to realise the fact of His oneness. Which I think won’t be hard for anybody who contemplates about the perfect nature of things around us. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala being Most Merciful then helps us further by sending His ayaat to tell us about the reality. Then He makes it perfect by choosing a human being from amongst us, as a role model infront is easy to follow than a manual script.

 

Hope this answers your query anon

 

wassalam



-------------
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 04 September 2006 at 5:47am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Originally posted by s666


the fundamental question as i have been saying even to anon123 is "what is good and what is not good?",  which can also be put as "what is truth and what is false?"

it will depend on the person and the community he or she has born into.

We as muslims are told that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has put it in humans to be able to differntiate between good and bad. If you look through out the world, the basic morals are quite alike. Lying, stealing, cheating, killing and non-marital relations are all taken as bad. I am sure many would say that in west relationship is a norm but i will ask, why a child outside the marriage is called what its called and its swear word. There must be some thing wrong in that or not?

Now if you want to take it regarding worship then almost every religion believes in a Highest authority but some associate others with that authority in some of His powers. This along with many things are the ones which are through the corruption of human minds.

Originally posted by fatima

Secondly humans been short sighted is regarding the absolute power of law making. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has kept this for Himself knowing humans are not capable of it. Islam tells people to get married and then have physical relationship, islam forbids any ties outside marital bond, islam asks parents to bring up thier kids in best of thier capacity, give them love and security. Kids are told to respect and obey thier parents. This results in formation of good society. A stable home results in up bringing of another stable generation.


and i think we are talking about the ethical system and not the legal system. to quote you.

Thats where the problem starts for people who dont understand islam, islam does not say keep your ethical values totally seperate of your legal ones, same way islam does not give a seperate religious or political system. When we say Islam gives a complete way of life, we mean it. If you keep your ethics totally seperate then with generations your values are going to fall short if they are not protected. Then your legal issues are going to have to change and it ends up in total chaos, best example of this chaos is that of family values and relations in the west.


Originally posted by fatima

Lastly about being a humanist, yes its all right and true relying on your judgement for taking good from where ever you see it. But at the end of the day, humans are short sighted.


different countries have different legal systems.  one cannot say that a country with the best legal system is more stable.  the problem is with the implementation.

can you tell me which country implements hudud?

Thats where the buck stops for all the critics, dont it? Thats the problem that no country is following the true religion of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. A country with the best legal system is most stable if that country and every one in it is abiding by the law (with the exception of few badies ofcourse). If you look at the time of Umar bin abdul aziz, he was the caliph of one of the greatest empires but there was no one in his state to accept the charity due to prosperity of the nation. He is called the fifth rightly guided caliph even though there were decades between his time and Ali (ra). He was able to change the course of coutry only because he followed and implimented the true laws to himself and his people. 

isn't your signature itself a contradiction which says Allah is forgiving, merciful but where as Allah does not forgive infidels?

Well He is most forgiving to poeple who recognise His rights even though some time they may fall short, who fear the account. But I am confused that if you dont even believe in Him why are you so eager to prove He is not forgiving. If you dont believe in the account what does it matter to you whether He is Mercifull or not?

 

wassalam



-------------
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 04 September 2006 at 7:51am
Originally posted by fatima

But I am confused that if you dont even believe in Him why are you so eager to prove He is not forgiving. If you dont believe in the account what does it matter to you whether He is Mercifull or not?


i never said that i do not believe in the highest authority.  i am just being radically critical.

Originally posted by fatima

Now if you want to take it regarding worship then almost every religion believes in a Highest authority but some associate others with that authority in some of His powers. This along with many things are the ones which are through the corruption of human minds.


dear fatima, how do you know that this is "corruption of human minds"?

isn't it your own belief?

Originally posted by fatima

Thats where the problem starts for people who dont understand islam, islam does not say keep your ethical values totally seperate of your legal ones, same way islam does not give a seperate religious or political system. When we say Islam gives a complete way of life, we mean it. If you keep your ethics totally seperate then with generations your values are going to fall short if they are not protected. Then your legal issues are going to have to change and it ends up in total chaos, best example of this chaos is that of family values and relations in the west.


do you mean to say that severing of one's right hand for stealing is ethical?

Originally posted by fatima

Thats where the buck stops for all the critics, dont it? Thats the problem that no country is following the true religion of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. A country with the best legal system is most stable if that country and every one in it is abiding by the law (with the exception of few badies ofcourse).


so you say that hudud is practical, isn't it?

Originally posted by fatima

If you look at the time of Umar bin abdul aziz, he was the caliph of one of the greatest empires but there was no one in his state to accept the charity due to prosperity of the nation. He is called the fifth rightly guided caliph even though there were decades between his time and Ali (ra). He was able to change the course of coutry only because he followed and implimented the true laws to himself and his people.


every country has its own great rulers, don't they?




-------------
http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 06 September 2006 at 9:44am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, so how do i know associating other dieties with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is corruption of human mind. Well its easiest thing if you think about it, have you ever seen two heads of state? or even a simplest thing like family situations. One person has to be the decision maker with a bit more authority than the other to run things smoothly, right? Now look at the your surroundings, can you fully comprehend the vastness of the universe? You cant, can you? Have you ever witnessed a matter which could be result of two equal forces working in opposite? The matter of the universe run so smoothly that its creator, guard and operator has to be ONE.

S666 wrote, do you mean to say that severing of one's right hand for stealing is ethical?
Well this is a law sent by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, we do not derive our laws out of ethics, it works other way round for us. Let me tell you two basic concepts of islam, one is that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala forgives His own rights to whomever He wills but He does not forgive right of other people. Second concept is that of gambling being haram. Gambling is haram because you are getting money which you never earned honestly. When you steal, you taking away some1's hard earned money from them. If the punishment is few months in prison or few grands, thief does not really care and makes this easy income his profession, example for this is increasing numbers of thefts in U.K. and many other places. Now if the person knows that on being caught he is going to loose a limb, he is going to think about it long and hard. The best example of this law working is in UAE, you forget your case full of money on a road and if you trace back, you will find it there. In comparison to any where else in the world where you wont even find a 50 if you loose it some where. Now every body talks about how harsh this punishment is but there is a responsibility govt takes when they cut some1's hand. That person get income support all his life.

S666 wrote, so you say that hudud is practical, isn't it?

Yeap,

S666 wrote, every country has its own great rulers, don't they?

Thats where islam differs again. So who is a great ruler? The one who benefits his country most, right? In most recent times, Bush and Blair, they both got elected twice even though they are responsible for creating a chaos in half of the world and murdering many innocent people. Thier people chose them again because they had policies which were benefiting thier country so to hell with the rest of the world, was it not? If you speak to a german, he still considers hitler, the great leader. Because he gave germans a sense of belonging, that they are some thing and many people think that this way of thinking has given them a great boost. But ask a jew, what would he say? Islam says a great ruler is the one who is a good servant of his Lord. The one who does every thing in his capacity to ensure truth and justice reaches every one.

Hope this satisfies your inquisitive mind

wassalam


 



-------------
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 07 September 2006 at 9:58am
Originally posted by fatima

Well its easiest thing if you think about it, have you ever seen two heads of state? or even a simplest thing like family situations.


good question, though we have side tracked.

obviously we do not have two heads of states.  but there are different people doing different jobs, isn't it dear fatima?

a country has a prime minister, a president, a finance minister, a defence minister.  for example, in india, prime minister is the most powerful person but does not have control of the army.  the president has control over the army.  disobeying prime minister isn't theoretically a sin, but disobeying president is treason.

Originally posted by fatima

Hi S666, so how do i know associating other dieties with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is corruption of human mind.


i dont want to talk about other religions but my religion.  my religion is hinduism and in my religion we do not associate dieties with AllahBrahman is immutable.  It is everything.

Originally posted by fatima

Now look at the your surroundings, can you fully comprehend the vastness of the universe? You cant, can you? Have you ever witnessed a matter which could be result of two equal forces working in opposite? The matter of the universe run so smoothly that its creator, guard and operator has to be ONE.


according to my religion, human intellect is itself a part of creation, so one cannot comprehend, with this intellect, the Supreme.  It is beyond reason.

according to your theory, there should be no misery in the universe as Allah controls everything.  but according to your religion Allah is testing us.  why would He/She/It need to test us?  (you may say that it is my ignorance asking such a question, but it is the fundamental question for which different muslim scholar has different 'explanation').

Originally posted by fatima

Well this is a law sent by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, we do not derive our laws out of ethics, it works other way round for us.


dear sister, it is your belief.  i stress it.  it is a belief.

Originally posted by fatima

When you steal, you taking away some1's hard earned money from them.


einstein simply put it, "God does not play dice".  if a person gambles, he does it with whole of his consciousness and with full awareness that he will lose money or win it.

what about tribute?  what about prizes? what about gifts?

Originally posted by fatima

thief does not really care and makes this easy income his profession, example for this is increasing numbers of thefts in U.K.


but why does one become a thief?  for food or if he/she is mentally ill.  in US and UK the prisons are called reformatories.

Originally posted by fatima

Now if the person knows that on being caught he is going to loose a limb, he is going to think about it long and hard.


of course, he/she thinks a lot.  but he or she does not steal because of fear and not because of understanding.  but one cannot rule by fear, one can only rule by love, isn't it?

Originally posted by fatima

The best example of this law working is in UAE, you forget your case full of money on a road and if you trace back, you will find it there.  In comparison to any where else in the world where you wont even find a 50 if you loose it some where.


what about the people going to dubai, bahrain etc. during weekends? (i think i need not elaborate it)

Originally posted by fatima

Now every body talks about how harsh this punishment is but there is a responsibility govt takes when they cut some1's hand. That person get income support all his life.


do you think it is a simple deal?  if that deal is so simple, everyone would become a thief for he or she need not work for the entire lifetime.

its the psychological scars which matter.  he would be traumatized for life.

Originally posted by fatima

Thats where islam differs again. So who is a great ruler? The one who benefits his country most, right? In most recent times, Bush and Blair, they both got elected twice even though they are responsible for creating a chaos in half of the world and murdering many innocent people.


sister fatima, one simple question and i think it will end the discussion.

why did the muslims invade territories from india to spain?  didn't they kill the same innocent people long back?  as you sow, so shall you reap.


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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 07 September 2006 at 11:07am
Originally posted by fatima

Hi S666, so how do i know associating other dieties with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is corruption of human mind. Well its easiest thing if you think about it, have you ever seen two heads of state? or even a simplest thing like family situations. One person has to be the decision maker with a bit more authority than the other to run things smoothly, right?

I shall point out Japan, prior to the fall of the Shogunate.  There were in fact two rulers.  The Emperor who was the Son of Heaven and the Shogun who was the Political and Military leader.  However, that does not apply to what Christians believe.

Okay, answering as a Mormon and not as a standard Christian, you have to understand that God the Father is supreme and Jesus, the Son is his servant as is the Holy Ghost.  They carry out the will of the Father, not their own will.  Thus God is still supreme.  They carry his authority as intermediaries, not in their own right. 

This I have seen as the major misunderstanding Most Muslims have with the belief of Jesus Christ. (In the realm of non Trinitarian Christians)  Giving God "partners" is the wrong way to look at it, these are supreme servants who are still subordinate to God the Father.

Now, as a Mainstream Christian (or Trinitarian) the arguement is absolutely different since Trinitarian Christians believe God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost to be three aspects of the same diety.  God is God, Jesus is the Same as is the Holy Ghost.  There is only one God who takes three forms.  Thus, they are not ascribing Partners, just defining the forms that God has taken in time.  I don't believe this, it doesn't make sense to me and I understand why Muslims also cannot understand this concept. 

But, in Polytheism, there are distinct and different Gods, each with their own authority and domains.  Zues was the King of the Gods, Ares the God of War, Aphrodite the Goddess of Love....this is ascribing partners to God.  This system removes God's complete omnipotence and divides the divine powers into several hands.

When I speak of Christ's healing the sick....as a Mormon, I am speaking of him healing the sick with the power that God gave him.

When a Trinitarian speaks of Christ's healing of the sick, they are speaking of GOD, in the form of Jesus Christ healing the sick.

The fundementals of belief regard one thing, human decision.  I believe because I have decided this belief is true based on instinct, feeling, reason, evidence and rationalization.  This is the same for a Muslim, a Jew or a Hindu.

Free will was the greatest gift that our Lord God gave us.  The freedom to choose right from wrong and to submit or rebel.

Everything is created by his will alone.  That is why we believe (Mormons) there is salvation for everyone.  The punishments will fit the crimes and though the Prison my stand for eternity, that does not mean you will be in it for eternity.  God is absolutely just and absolutely merciful.  Only he can really judge.



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Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 07 September 2006 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Angela

Free will was the greatest gift that our Lord God gave us.  The freedom to choose right from wrong and to submit or rebel.



exactly


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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 08 September 2006 at 5:30am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

I knew you are going to bring up ministers in this , Well if you believe in the supreme authority then why would that supreme authority need help? An authority which is supreme is more than capable of carrying out all the works. Now in the case of choosing angels alaihimus salaam to send messages to His Human Messengers alaihimus salaam , and then these human messengers to convey the message to common folks. Yes Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala could have had a direct way but this was most perfect and He is Most Mercifull and choose the easiest way. But we dont call them the Gods who share some of His powers, they are slaves and creation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala like every1 else. The only exception is they got chosen for a purpose.

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala sent us in this world to see who follows His path in all the conditions. Now many a things which human mind may take as miseries are not just that. Among them is poverty, illness, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala puts His slave through this to see who is patient enough to remember Him in this state and not take this as punishment. Same way we are been told that health, wealth, children and many other things which we see as blessing might prove otherwise for us. Because it is human nature to indulge in pleasure and forget about the Lord who granted you these. So for me if my health and wealth makes me forget Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala then the illness which makes me mindfull of my Lord is better. Now other miseries like war and things like that they are created by us.

S666 wrote, einstein simply put it, "God does not play dice".  if a person gambles, he does it with whole of his consciousness and with full awareness that he will lose money or win it.
So according to your theory, when a person kills why would you punish them?

S666 wrote, what about tribute?  what about prizes? what about gifts?
What about them?

Now all the concepts of reformatories, understanding instead of fear. You must not have come across a creature called humans in your life then. If you see stats of any country, most people who come out of jail go on to harder crime then the reason of their first entry to jail. And dont even get me started on ruling with love, America is where it is because we all love it, is it? Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala knows perfectly how human mind works so He gave us laws which would make a society peacefull if applied in its true essence.

Well like before you taking 2 and 2 coming out with God knows what with this thief thing. All i was telling you full picture that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not banish this person completely but He makes a way for him.

And there was no need for your last simple question if you read my last paragraph properly. It is one of responsibility of a muslim ruler to make sure words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala reaches every where. One simple thing if you ever read history without bias that whenever muslim armies went some where they gave the options to ruler to embrace islam or give the power to muslims and no one will be hurt. In the cases where this happened muslims ruled that place justly without forcing any1 to convert. In most of history books, the priest and rabis have wrote that they prefered muslim rulers rather than other sects of christians. Because muslim rulers gave them freedom of pracitising their religion. The example of spain you gave is best one for me as after hundreds of years of muslim rule majority was still christians. Another concept of being a good muslim ruler is giving the help to opressed muslims and i am sure your history will give you the exact same reason for muslims entering subcontinent.

Now lastly S666 wrote, dear sister, it is your belief.  i stress it.  it is a belief.

Well for me islam is not only a faith and belief system but a proven fact, the day anybody can prove Holy Quran wrong (you would see sun rising from west but not this) that day you can make it just a belief.

wassalam



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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 08 September 2006 at 5:32am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi angela, Hope you dont mind but this is not a section for discussion on different belief systems. It is for non-muslims who want to know some thing of islam. If you want to take part in this discussion and S666 dont mind then we can move the thread in interfaith section.

Wassalam



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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: anon123
Date Posted: 08 September 2006 at 6:36pm
I have been following the forum and saw some interesting points being made. Here is another question that confuses me.

According to the Islamic belief system, it is said that Christianity and Judasm also had the same teachings as Islam originally but were corrupted over time. Perhaps that could also be applied to other religions such as Budhism and Hinduism.

Muslims believe that Quran has not been corrupted and God has promised to keep the originality since God possesses all the power to do so. If that is the case then why didn't God send one and only one prophet and prevented his words from being corrupted? Why didn't he keep the old testiment in its original form?
Wouldn't that make things a lot more simpler and avoid conflicts? What is the muslim belief for that.

If there was one and only one religion, then atleast we would have one less thing to worry about; religious conflicts.


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 08 September 2006 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by fatima

It is one of responsibility of a muslim ruler to make sure words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala reaches every where.


as i have said sister, this will end the discussion.  but whatever i say is not to offend you or any other person of any community.  and if you feel this post to be inappropriate, then its upto you to delete it or edit it.  but i like to be as comprehensive as i can regarding this issue.

1. How do you know that Muhammad is a Prophet?
2. How do you know that Allah contacted Muhammad through Gabriel?
3. How do you know that the present Quran is exactly the same as Muhammad has said it? (considering it was compiled only after hundred years of his death, i mean to say that the very verse which says that Quran will be protected by Allah would have been changed during compilation)
4. Finally, how do you know that there exists a supreme being called God or Allah or Brahman?


Originally posted by fatima

I knew you are going to bring up ministers in this , Well if you believe in the supreme authority then why would that supreme authority need help? An authority which is supreme is more than capable of carrying out all the works. Now in the case of choosing angels alaihimus salaam to send messages to His Human Messengers alaihimus salaam , and then these human messengers to convey the message to common folks. Yes Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala could have had a direct way but this was most perfect and He is Most Mercifull and choose the easiest way.


you say it is the easiest way, but is anything hard for Allah?

Originally posted by fatima

But we dont call them the Gods who share some of His powers, they are slaves and creation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala like every1 else. The only exception is they got chosen for a purpose.


sister, regarding hinduism, its a different issue altogether.  it takes a lot to explain about 'gods'.  but its simple to say that the difference is in the language.  'god' is an english word.  and its not obligatory to 'worship' idols.  even if you take a look at hindu holy book gita, nowhere you find about worshipping idols or polytheism.  gita is more about proper thinking and living.  gita tells us to respect choice.

i would like to give a simple example regarding 'gods' in hinduism.  there are temples of mahatma gandhi, amitabh bachchan, shah rukh khan etc. do you mean to say they are worth worshipping?

Originally posted by fatima

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala sent us in this world to see who follows His path in all the conditions.


dear sister, why would Allah want to test us?  He/She/It is all powerful and all knowing then what for is the test?

Originally posted by fatima

So according to your theory, when a person kills why would you punish them?


sister, we are no one to punish a person.  the best thing is to counsel that person or send him to an asylum or a reformatory.

Originally posted by fatima

Now all the concepts of reformatories, understanding instead of fear. You must not have come across a creature called humans in your life then. If you see stats of any country, most people who come out of jail go on to harder crime then the reason of their first entry to jail. And dont even get me started on ruling with love, America is where it is because we all love it, is it?


for this you yourself have answered.  "Now other miseries like war and things like that they are created by us."

sister, we have choice and free will.  its upto us to use a knife to cut vegetables or to kill someone.

Originally posted by fatima

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala knows perfectly how human mind works so He gave us laws which would make a society peacefull if applied in its true essence.


yes Allah knows perfectly how human mind works.  Allah also knows what we exactly do at a given place and at a given time.  Allah knows, when He/She/It created us, that some of us will disobey Him/Her/It.  Allah knows exactly who will disobey Him/Her/It.  then what is this test? what is the purpose of it? why to create a person who disobeys Him/Her/It? then why to judge that person and then punish that person?

Originally posted by fatima

One simple thing if you ever read history without bias that whenever muslim armies went some where they gave the options to ruler to embrace islam or give the power to muslims and no one will be hurt.


what?  is there anything called peaceful war?  so you mean to say muslim armies entered other territories without killing anyone?  to propagate the word of Allah is it obligatory to kill soldiers (aren't soldiers human)?  can't they send missionaries?  do they have to send armies?

Originally posted by fatima

Another concept of being a good muslim ruler is giving the help to opressed muslims and i am sure your history will give you the exact same reason for muslims entering subcontinent.


what do you mean to say?  how can someone 'opress' someone who do not exist?

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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 08 September 2006 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by fatima

If you want to take part in this discussion and S666 dont mind then we can move the thread in interfaith section.



its so nice of you to consult sister.  please do whatever you feel appropriate.


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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 09 September 2006 at 5:14am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, I dont think any1 minds a question when questioner is observing good manners and to learn about some thing, obviously you need to question, so no worries. When i see bit rudeness from you i will tell you and i am sure it wont come to that.

Now going back to the topic, Hope you dont take it as offense but i think you need to polish your history regarding muslims . The first military convoy to subcontinent was sent in command of Muhammad bin Qasim and it was in reply to a letter of a prisoned girl. Your question about why preachers were not sent instead of armies, then yes preachers were sent in many cases who were brutaly killed. Interesting enough mojority of them were sent on request of those people who betrayed the trust of muslims later on by killing those preachers.

Now just want to mention this as well that where ever muslims went, that part of the world got enriched with best technology, education and cultural stuff there was at time. Every body recognises that science and technology came to west through muslims. Muslims made sure that they provide best for all regardless of their religion. Now compare this to what happened when a non-muslim took over the country. First thing they do is kill the governing people, second thing is kill the intellectuals and their facilities. I am not sure whether you come across the article or not but there was this two page story on how america in this day and age made sure that every intellectual in Iraq ends exactly like its first generation when tatars invaded this land.

About your views on counseling the killers and not punishing them, only one thing read more about serial killers or read the stories of people whose loved ones are taken away. I am sure you will come to realize the reality.

I think we already had long and hard discussions about the fact that if Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala knew this person is going to disobey why He created him, why the test when He is all-knowing. There are ninety nine names of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that us common beings know of. They are the attributes of our dear Lord, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is best in all those without the other getting effected. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is All Knowing but at same time He is Most Just Judge. A Just ruler can not punish the person without the crime even though through His complete knowledge He is aware that this person is going to commit the crime. Before creation of Human beings, devil was one of very obedient slave but with reason of gaining power in earth not solely for pleasure of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Creation of Humans made obvious and apparent what the devil was hiding.

Now about only creating the obedient slaves to save the disobedient from the misery. Well if only good ones were let to live then every one who was on earth would have known their end. There was no point of earthly life, how would humans know the bounties and Mercy of our Lord. If there was no worldy life then paradise is no reward and all this would not make much sense and have not much purpose and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not create any thing without a purpose.

Now why so many messengers, well He sent messengers alaihimus salaam to each nation so no one can have an excuse of message not reaching to him. Now how these messages get corrupted is  work of shaytan. He asked permission to lure humans to wrongdoing and permission was granted. Successive messengers is also a piece of test puzzle, it is hard for self to give up some thing dear even though it might have gone old and not quite usefull so Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wants to see our reaction and wants us to act for His sake alone. But major part of successive messenger is not a test but His mercy, as out of His complete wisdom He allowed devil to do his dirty work for some time, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala made sure that right and pure message reaches to human through new messengers alaihimus salaam.

You mentioned in one of your previous posts that how we have limited understanding as we are humans and cannot completely comprehend the works of our Lord. So this question of why test? could be only answered to the extent of our intelect and understanding and thats best of my understanding and I can not go beyond that. This brings me to your first question that how do i know about the existance of a supereme being. This is how, I see the vastness of my surrounding, could comprehend some of the wisdom but most is a question so my limitation but the limitless bounties tell me that there is a limitless Creator who created things i can not even think and understand about. And yes you said it absolutely right every thing is easy for creator of all because all He has to say is 'be' and 'it is'. But out of His Mercy, He makes things easy for humans to understand.

Lastly to your first question, first a clarification of a misunderstanding, Holy Quran was not compiled hundered years after Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam went to his Lord. In his life time, he had told the formal writers of Holy Quran about which part goes where and it was on pieces in writing but was not in the form of a book. Now in the time of first caliph abubakr (ra), within the two years of departure of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam, Holy Quran was compiled in the form of a Book. Even if it was not, there were hundered and hundered of companions who memorized all of the Holy Quran, there were also many who memorised parts. So even the stingiest critics can not say much about the authenticity and compilation of Holy Quran because there is so much continuity that even a difference of a fatah or qasrah is noticed. Even today there are places where kids never get to see a writen copy but learn Holy Quran through their teachers. Now very regularly in muslim world there are competitions held for best recitations and most of people participating learn Holy Quran by heart and no one has ever noticed a difference in another. I have CDs of reciters from across the world and never noticed any thing different.

This accuracy in preserving the book and then the advancement in science has made me certain in the authenticity of Holy Quran. When i am certain that Holy Quran is a divine book then i also get certain that I have One Lord, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, that he sent different messengers in different times and last of them was Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam and that prime messenger between him and his Lord was Gibrail alaihis salaam.

Wassalam



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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 09 September 2006 at 8:35am
Originally posted by fatima

The first military convoy to subcontinent was sent in command of Muhammad bin Qasim and it was in reply to a letter of a prisoned girl. Your question about why preachers were not sent instead of armies, then yes preachers were sent in many cases who were brutaly killed. Interesting enough mojority of them were sent on request of those people who betrayed the trust of muslims later on by killing those preachers.


dear sister, indian civilization has been the most tolerant civilzation though we had skirmishes with local populations.  you find here parsis, syrian  christians and jews.  most of them are influential even now.  we even have the first largest bahai population.  just look at it, if the girl was prisoned and if anything would have happened as you think then how would the letter have reached qasim.  and considering such a thing had really happened, then the war would have stopped when the king in question had been defeated instead of spreading the entire country, isn't it sister?

yet we do not consider muslim conquests as something bad in our history.  and above all we do not relate much to religion(there is no word equivalent to 'religion' in any of the indian languages).  there were many wars even among the local kingdoms.

Originally posted by fatima

Now just want to mention this as well that where ever muslims went, that part of the world got enriched with best technology, education and cultural stuff there was at time. Every body recognises that science and technology came to west through muslims.


but technology was already well developed in this part of the world before those conquests.  just look at greek and egyptian history.  in fact the numerals are called indo-arabic numerals, aren't they?  before arabs came here we had the best sea-faring community and after the conquest the voyages were only sent to mecca. (in fact the word 'navy' comes from sanskrit word 'nav')

actually, what we call history is just what we agree upon.  there is a lot of difference between history noted by muslims and indians.  but we do not have anything against any civilization.  in fact great thinkers like swami vivekananda blame indians for their introvert nature.

Originally posted by fatima

I am not sure whether you come across the article or not but there was this two page story on how america in this day and age made sure that every intellectual in Iraq ends exactly like its first generation when tatars invaded this land.


sister fatima, i do not blame america for such things.  as you said, "It is one of responsibility of a muslim ruler to make sure words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala reaches every where."  similarly, americans think that democracy is the best form of government and so democracy should prevail.  thats why they meddle everywhere.

Originally posted by fatima

About your views on counseling the killers and not punishing them, only one thing read more about serial killers or read the stories of people whose loved ones are taken away. I am sure you will come to realize the reality.

sister fatima, believe me, it takes a lot to forgive.  i know how one feels when a loved one gets killed.  but i cannot hold on to that anger and avenge it.  'Lord' is an ancient word which means 'Law'.  Lord will look after it.  haven't you read about forgiveness episodes in Quran?  punishing is upto Lord.  the best thing we can do is helping.  To err is human, to forgive divine.



dear sister, whatever you have said, thank you for it.  but yet, how do you know that Allah exists and Muhammad is His/Her/It's messenger?
if you say authenticity is the factor (This accuracy in preserving the book and then the advancement in science has made me certain in the authenticity of Holy Quran.)  i can say for sure that protection of a book cannot be yardstick for its godliness.

sister fatima, beliefs are just postulates until they are proved.  to prove Quran to be true, one has to prove the judgement day to be true.

other religions have their own postulates which are equally hard to prove.

one cannot say a certain religion to be a true religion because religion is not based on facts but based on beliefs.  one cannot compare beliefs until they are proven to be facts.

COGITO ERGO SUM.

dear sister, you said, "It is one of responsibility of a muslim ruler to make sure words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala reaches every where."  but how can one convince that Quran is Allah's word?


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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: anon123
Date Posted: 09 September 2006 at 2:41pm
Hello Fatima,
You took the word right out of my mouth. Puzzle. Why would God want to puzzle his creation by sending over a hundred thousand prophets to every nation and let devil (or Shayatan) corrupt them each and everytime except the last time when he sent his last prophet?
Earning heaven should be based on morals and good deeds rather than solving a puzzle. Even if you follow one particular religion, there are still 100 different puzzle pieces in it, sects (I prefer to call them subreligions). Every religious scholar I talk to would in the end tell me to "Read the holy book". Be it Chirstianity or Islam. I've read the books and they are definately beautiful but I still don't get the answers to the questions I have been asking in this forum.
Whenever I start an argument, I try to keep it friendly and informative so if I said something offensive, I apologize for it.


Posted By: anon123
Date Posted: 09 September 2006 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by s666

(This accuracy in preserving the book and then the advancement in science has made me certain in the authenticity of Holy Quran.)  i can say for sure that protection of a book cannot be yardstick for its godliness.sister fatima, beliefs are just postulates until they are proved.  to prove Quran to be true, one has to prove the judgement day to be true.other religions have their own postulates which are equally hard to prove.one cannot say a certain religion to be a true religion because religion is not based on facts but based on beliefs. 



What you said is very appealing and boggles the mind even more when you think about the question of religion. Perfection cannot be used as a yardstick to measure Godliness. This keyboard seems to be working perfectly, although that doesn't justify that it was made by God.
Also, Religion is based on a blind belief that what the religion teaches is a fact. The two terms go hand in hand when they are used to describe religion.


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 11 September 2006 at 3:25am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Well i will try my best to explain what i meant in the line that got attention from both of you brothers(i assume).

Holy Quran was revealed over 1400 years ago, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala challenged the disbelievers in various parts. For instance,

[Shakir 11:13] Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.
[Shakir 10:37-38] And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. Or do they say: He has forged it? Say: Then bring a chapter like this and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.
[Shakir 2:23-24] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.

Ever since the Holy Quran was revealed, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like that of Holy Quran which matches its beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislations and informations, true prophecy and many other perfect attributes. Note that smallest chapter of Holy Quran is only three verses and have ten words.

Holy Quran also foretold some of the events of the future among which was victory of the romans over the persians within three to nine years of thier defeat. [Shakir 30:2-4] The Romans are vanquished, In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome, Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice.

The word used for 'a few years' is bedd which in arabic is taken as time period between 3-9 years and history tells you that it was very hard to imagine that romans would be victorious again seeing the sort of defeat they took.

Hope you have bit of time to explore this website, http://www.jalyat.net/ - http://www.jalyat.net/ . This will sort of explain to you what is the connection between scientific advancement and authenticity of Holy Quran. Once you have read some material on this site then inshaAllah we will have further chat.

And please dont worry, no one gets offended when some one asks questions about Islam thats how you learn about reality of some thing. We are more than happy to explain in our limited capacity, hoping inshaAllah it will suffice.

Wassalam



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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 11 September 2006 at 5:36am
Originally posted by fatima

And please dont worry, no one gets offended when some one asks questions about Islam thats how you learn about reality of some thing. We are more than happy to explain in our limited capacity, hoping inshaAllah it will suffice.


thank you again sister.

Originally posted by fatima

Ever since the Holy Quran was revealed, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like that of Holy Quran which matches its beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislations and informations, true prophecy and many other perfect attributes. Note that smallest chapter of Holy Quran is only three verses and have ten words.


sister fatima, there are many languages in this universe and there are many epics, poetry etc. in those languages.  and most of the Quran is not understood by muslims themselves.  Different scholars have their own opinion.
and if something was produced as Quran wouldn't it be plagiarism?

Originally posted by fatima

Hope you have bit of time to explore this website, http://www.jalyat.net/ - http://www.jalyat.net/ . This will sort of explain to you what is the connection between scientific advancement and authenticity of Holy Quran.
Once you have read some material on this site then inshaAllah we will have further chat.


i have had time to read about science in Quran.  the website was really nice.  but i still feel some of the explanations were not comprehensive.  i feel them to be attached explanations.  most of the verses in Quran are open in the sense that we can take whatever the meaning we want from a particular verse.

for example, consider these...

078.006
YUSUFALI: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
PICKTHAL: Have We not made the earth an expanse,
SHAKIR: Have We not made the earth an even expanse?

079.030
YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,
SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.

according to these verses, the earth is flat.  but some scholars say, regarding the verse 079.030 that earth is egg shaped because, the word dahaha is used.

so, if earth was flat one can use the same verses to say that earth is flat.

this is what i mean when i say the verses are open.

and most important, scholars sometimes isolate the verses and integrate the verses some other times.

for example...

036.036
YUSUFALI: Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!
SHAKIR: Glory be to Him Who created pairs of all things, of what the earth grows, and of their kind and of what they do not know.

036.037
YUSUFALI: And a Sign for them is the Night: We withdraw therefrom the Day, and behold they are plunged in darkness;
PICKTHAL: A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness.
SHAKIR: And a sign to them is the night: We draw forth from it the day, then lo! they are in the dark;

036.038
YUSUFALI: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
PICKTHAL: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
SHAKIR: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

036.039
YUSUFALI: And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.
PICKTHAL: And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.
SHAKIR: And (as for) the moon, We have ordained for it stages till it becomes again as an old dry palm branch.

the verse 036:038 is regarding turn of day into night.  but in http://www.jalyat.net/ , the verse 036:038 has been isolated and is said to be regarding the solar apex.  but the scholar did not consider the movement of the milky way and its collision with andromeda.

then how can we convince someone that Quran is the word of Allah and Muhammad is His/Her/It's Prophet?


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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 12 September 2006 at 5:25am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, regarding producing likes of Holy Quran, it was a challenge as arabs of that time was master in language and poetry. They produced works which were sweet to hear and most elequent of speeches. It was a known factor about Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam that he never had no formal schooling and was never heard of reciting poetry. Some thing so elequent coming from him was a miracle and sign in itself but those arabs still argued that he makes it himself. So Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala told those people that if you think that a person who is not even master on this language can forge some thing like this then you people whom the world considers master of your language produce some thing alike.

Which ofcourse they could not and there are still many arabic speaking non-muslim who could try but they dont. Now about poetry in other languages and rest of written stuff, why do you think no one claims it to be divine. May be because its not worth it and the writer knows it himslef.

Now there are many verses which mention earth, the two which you picked are very easy to understand if you read the ayah before and after it. The first one from Surah 78, its literal meaning is 'Have we not made earth as a bed' Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is mentioning His bounties and thats why it is mentioned like that. In second ayaah you mentioned, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is mentioning formation of heavens and earth and its expansion in sense of vastness and putting plants and trees and other bounties. The theme then carries on with how Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala put mountain on this expanded earth to stop it swirling here and there.

I will try to find ayaat which literally mean expansion as in flat entity. But same thing you need to take ayaah before and after it to actually realize that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is telling us in the sense of us finding our livelihood, that when we travel thats what we feel and thats it.

Another thing that muslim scholars came out with the concept of earth being round was not from this particular ayaah. It was from ayaat in Surah kahf, which mention a righteous leader traveling through land. Its the last story of that particular surah about Dhulqarnain thats what made them think that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala mentions him going to furthest west and then furthest east without mentioning him having to come back. Thats what promted the thought of earth being a spere, it exact shape was concluded to be an egg due to the 'dhuhaha' used in couple of places in relation to earth.

About the sun and solar apex, you might be right and there is a chance you might be wrong. I have not got detailed knowledge of this particular fact. InshaAllah i will look into it. End of the day Holy Quran is not a book of science, its a book of signs. It gives the complete cycle of pregnancy, it gives complete process of cloud formation and many other thing about 1400 years ago. When these processes were not known to any human being. The concepts that can be derived out of a single or couple of verses could be left out and still it would not reduce its effectiveness.

Hope you dont take it as offense but if you really want to understand Holy Quran then you need to stop taking the verses from those sites which have only one intention. Neither am i saying that believe every thing a muslim says with your eyes closed. Read the explanation of Holy Quran thats how you would know what those ayaat really mean and in what circumstances and in what context they should be taken in.

wassalam



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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 13 September 2006 at 8:09am
dear sister fatima,

i think i have gone wayward.  instead of trying to understand i am just asking questions.  and i think i am going off topic.

as you have said, Quran is a book of signs.  it has to be deciphered.

sister, it would be better if you give me an online site where i can find a good translation of Quran in english.

thanks sister for your patience.


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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 14 September 2006 at 2:27pm

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, I think its ok to question as long as they are to gain better understanding. But main thing is that if you seriously seeking the knowledge and truth then you have to explore it yourself.

http://www.al-islam.org/quran - www.al-islam.org/quran has got three good translations but im not too much of a translation only person. http://www.tafheem.net - www.tafheem.net is commentary by maulana mawdudi but you can also just read the meaning. I would prefer his work because he does not always write literal meaning but takes into consideration the context and what it means as a whole. But even if you only reading meaning and get stuck at some point, i will be more than happy to hear from you.

wassalam



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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 15 September 2006 at 2:09am
thank you sister fatima...

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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)


Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 15 September 2006 at 5:14am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi S666, Just thought you might want to read 'ayaat of the week' in 'Quran and sunnah' section for this week. Its commentary of the ayaat you mentioned and it is explained beautifully in tafsir ibn kathir and you can read other two as well just to compare if you have time .

wassalam



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Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL


Posted By: s666
Date Posted: 15 September 2006 at 8:14am
definitely sister fatima.  i will do that.

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http://www.donthefilm.com/ - Don - The Chase Begins Again (Diwali/Eid 2006)



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