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People of the Book

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6211
Printed Date: 24 April 2014 at 3:21am


Topic: People of the Book
Posted By: Patty
Subject: People of the Book
Date Posted: 05 August 2006 at 6:08pm

I have read a lot regarding Muslims, Jews, and Christians being "People of the Book".  A question came to me yesterday.  Maybe someone can answer it.  We are the people of what Book?

 



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.



Replies:
Posted By: ALEH
Date Posted: 05 August 2006 at 6:50pm

 

 

The Bible , the Torah



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Judgement day is born in each moment, a moment to see if we need Education, Counseling or Consultation to meet our challenges with grace and dignity for all. (My favorite surah is 99, 1-8)


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 06 August 2006 at 8:35am

Hi Patty,

People of the Book means those people who had received Divine messages before, through prophets. they were the people who were aware that there is only One Lord Almighty and they followed all the laws given to them.

When Qur'aan refers to Christians and Jews as the people of the Book, it tells us that they had scriptures and were aware of God and His Commandments, etc.

The Arabs never had received any prophets before, hence they were told that if they did not believe in Qur'aan, they could ask the Jews and Christians, who had received God's Messages and Commandments before. 

In other words, people who knew of God and had heard about God and believed in God, before.

An example: There is only One Lord God Almighty. The Arabs did not believe that and they had Christians and Jews living among them. They were thus asked to check and find out from these people who had received God's Messages. People of the Book also means people with the knowledge about God.

Thus, the Jews and Christians are people of the book, the Torah and the Injeel. Torah of Moses and Injeel, the preaching by Jesus.  



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 06 August 2006 at 9:06am
I agree with Bmzsp when he says "people of the Book also means people with the knowledge about God". I would add "the One God".

"Book" in the sentence "people of the Book" means the message that God has revealed.

So any people who has received a message from the One God is a people of the Book.
For that reason Zoroastrians are often included in the peoples of the Book, as are Sabeans.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 16 August 2006 at 10:02am
I see what you say.  But if Muslims believe the Bible is not true, or has been corrupted, of what good is the Bible, and in light of such, why would I, as a Catholic and firm believer that the Bible is NOT corrupt, still be considered a Person of the Book?  Maybe I'm just not understanding this correctly.

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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 16 August 2006 at 3:24pm
Do the Zoroastrians believe in the Zabur as do the Sabeans?

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David C.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 16 August 2006 at 5:51pm

David,

No, the Zoroastrians do not believe in the Zabur. Islam does not consider them as People of the Book.

Zoroastrians believe their God is Mazda, who is represented by fire.

People of the Book refers to Sabeans, Jews and Christians only.

BMZ



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 12:20am

Bmzsp

I see that you disagree with Imam Malik Ibn Anas one of Islam's greatest scholars. He included the Zoroastrians as People of the Book.

On the other hand many Muslims consider Christians as polytheists because of the Trinity (and without the Trinity there would be no Christians).
So it is a kind of nonsense to include them among the People of the Book.



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 3:53am
Originally posted by Cyril


On the other hand many Muslims consider Christians as polytheists because of the Trinity (and without the Trinity there would be no Christians).

So it is a kind of nonsense to include them among the People of the Book.



The Qu'ran includes Christians specifically, doesn't it?  And many Christian denominations reject the concept of a Trinity.


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David C.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 4:59am

Cyril,

From you: "I see that you disagree with Imam Malik Ibn Anas one of Islam's greatest scholars. He included the Zoroastrians as People of the Book."

I am not aware of that. Could you please quote me on that. As far as my knowledge is concerned, Zoroastrians are not the People of the Book. Zoroaster (Zartasht in Persian), the founder, was a good man. Modern day followers of Zartasht are known as Parsis.

I can disagree with an Imam but I can't and dare not disagree with God Almighty.

Only people from the Abrahamic religions are considered "People of the Book". They must have belief in One God only. Zoroastrians believe that their Good God is rivalled by another Evil God and there is a tussle between Good and Evil. 

From you: "On the other hand many Muslims consider Christians as polytheists because of the Trinity (and without the Trinity there would be no Christians).
So it is a kind of nonsense to include them among the People of the Book."

In all messages and teachings of Jesus, one does not find Trinity taught by him at all. I agree with David that many Christian denominations reject the concept of Trinity. Moreover, the Christian Scriptures do have the messages of God as taught by Jesus and most of the messages from the Torah were aslo taught and preached by Jesus.

Since Trinity is no where to be found in the direct teachings of Jesus, the Christians are still considered as People of the Book.

BMZ



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 8:05am
BMZ

Let's first agree on the following: the Quran mentions Jews, Christians and Sabians as People of the Book.

Zoroastrianism has evolved along the centuries (aka Mazdeism and Parsism for example) and in one of its form it was a dualism (a God of Good vs a God of Evil). So I think rather like you, it does not seem to be a pure monotheism and even not a monotheism at all.

As there must have been several types of Zoroastrians, some of them must have passed themselves as monotheists so that Imam Malik counted them among the People of the Book (see People of the Book wikipedia). I also heard that Zoroastrians were sometimes mixed up with Sabians.

So we arrive to the question: who were the Sabians? Some say they are the Mandaeans. Were Mandaeans monotheists? Or dualists?

About Christianity:

Your quote: "In all messages and teachings of Jesus, one does not find Trinity taught by him at all."

We are not going to start a basic course in Christianity, but saying such a thing is considering the over two billions Christians as idiots. Can Christians believe in something which is not described in Christian scriptures? That is nonsense.

Your quote:" I agree with David that many Christian denominations reject the concept of Trinity."

Which denominations? I live in Europe in a Christian surrounding and never heard about them.



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 9:39am

Cyril,

Sabeans were Monotheistic and about a few years ago, they found an entire group living in Iraq. I do not know much about their beliefs.

I have come across Christians, never asked them for their denominations, but some confirm that there is only one God and they consider Jesus only as a Son of God. I have found some who even maintain the Sabbath exactly as the Jews do. Some Christians that I spoke to consider Jesus as an intercessor between man and God only.

Of course the majority is not idiot and believes in Trinity but my point was that Jesus did NOT teach that.

About 1.5 billion Hindus of India, Burma, Bangladesh, Nepal and other Asian states believe in their own ancientTrinity. Certainly we cannot call them idiots.

I have read the Bible well and did not read or see a single sentence in which Jesus himself clearly said, "I am the Son of God" or "I am God". That is what I meant.



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 4:20pm

bmz said:

"I have read the Bible well and did not read or see a single sentence in which Jesus himself clearly said, "I am the Son of God" or "I am God". That is what I meant."

Jesus spoke many times in parables.  But it was obvious what He meant.  I know you are familiar with his response to Phillip in the Gospel of John, when Phillips asked Him to "show us the Father."  We know what he meant when he said "you've seen me, you've seen the father."  There is no doubt what He meant.  Or when He told His disciples that He would send the Paraclete or the Holy Spirit to comfort us.  He talked many times about His father who was in Heaven.  That means He is the Son of God the Father.

But we can just beat this to death if we really try, can't we bmz?

God's Peace Always!!


 



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 5:15pm

Patty,

"But we can just beat this to death if we really try, can't we bmz? "

Yes, we can.  But I don't intend to unless absolutely necessary.

How is your dear father, Patty? God bless and my best wishes.

BMZ



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 5:31pm

Dear BMZ,

My precious father died on July 8.  I am actually devastated by his death.  This site is very therapeutic for me, and I'm in grief therapy.  The good Muslims here had a wonderful, quite beautiful memorial set up to my Dad at the time of his death.  I had to fly home, but I checked on it nearly every day.  It is still on here. 

I'm glad his suffering is over.....but I just can't believe he's gone.  (I was a "daddy's girl"....we did everything together when I was a kid, and I guess I stayed a little girl to him.)  He was a wonderful, loving, kind man who never hated anyone in his life.  He never knew a stranger.  I am truly "lost" right now.  But I have my faith and I believe in time I will feel happiness again.  I know my Dad is with our loving God, and that is what gets me through this right now. 

Thank you so much for asking, bmz!



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 17 August 2006 at 11:17pm

Dear Patty,

That is a huge loss and my sincere condolences to you and family. I can understand the pain. may God give you  that strength to bear this loss.

If you are 18-20, I would love to be your daddy. Smile.

Best Regards

BMZ



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 12:48am
See

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/ancientabyssinia.html - http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/ancienta byssinia.html
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/PRE.HTM - http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/PRE.HTM

Note the pagan religion mentioned is ancient - the Sabean kingdom had collapsed well before the time of Muhummad.


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David C.


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 12:55am
Patty

Thank you for your answer to Bmz's question "Where does Jesus say I am God?".
That is exactly the answer I would have given, but I did not for two reasons:
1) the thread is about the people of the Book 2) I have not been busy with Christianity for a long time. So it would have taken me some research.


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 1:10am

DavidC

The Sabeans (from the queen of Sheba) you are refering to have nothing to do with the mysterious Sabians mentioned in the Quran.

The first ones are called the people of saba' and the second the Sâbi'űn.

The initial Arabic consonant of saba' is a sîn (normal "s") and for Sâbi'űn it is the emphatic "s" called Sâd. (which I transliterate with a capital letter)


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 6:44am

Originally posted by Cyril

Patty

Thank you for your answer to Bmz's question "Where does Jesus say I am God?".
That is exactly the answer I would have given, but I did not for two reasons:
1) the thread is about the people of the Book 2) I have not been busy with Christianity for a long time. So it would have taken me some research.

My pleasure, Cyril.  I routinely remind bmz of this verse (and a few others) in which Jesus refers to Himself as the Father.  In I John 5:7,  states "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit:  and these THREE ARE ONE."  I have always felt this was a great piece of scripture proving the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.  You may want to read that entire chapter of I John....it is very enlightening regarding the Trinity.

Also, back in a previous post to David I believe you said you had not heard of any Christian denominations who do not believe in the Trinity.  I know of only one, and that is the Apostolics, or the "Oneness", also known as "Jesus Only" churches.  This church was established in the 1800s.  But they claim to be the first Christian church in the world.  (I've never been able to figure out that claim.)

I hope this is somewhat helpful to you, Cyril.

God's Peace!



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 6:47am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Dear Patty,

That is a huge loss and my sincere condolences to you and family. I can understand the pain. may God give you  that strength to bear this loss.

If you are 18-20, I would love to be your daddy. Smile.

Best Regards

BMZ

Oh, how kind and sweet of you, BMZ!  I'm sure you would be a wonderful daddy....however, I should probably tell you I have a teenage granddaughter.  But thank you so much for the beautiful thought!  (I was married very, very young.)

Here's who I am, just your typical Irish Catholic woman. (Is it allowed to post your picture??  Tell me and I'll remove it if it's not allowed.)  I always seem to break some sort of rule due to ignorance.

God's Peace!



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 7:43am
Patty

There are a few denominations which call themselves Christians but are not recognized as such by other Christians.
For example the Jehovah Witnesses believe in a duality consisting in a main God who created a lesser God (Jesus). The Mormons believe in a trinity composed of three separate Gods.
I heard only on the internet about the denomination you mention.

Muslims have the same problem with Alevi Turks and Syrian Nusayris who most certainly consider themselves as Muslims.


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 7:58am
Originally posted by Patty

I have read a lot regarding Muslims, Jews, and Christians being "People of the Book".  A question came to me yesterday.  Maybe someone can answer it.  We are the people of what Book?

"My opinion : People of The Book - 'The Book' may refer to the Holy books revealed by Allah, that is the Torah, The Zabur, The Injeel and The Qur'an."

 

But now, the only book to be followed is The Qur'an as it is the final word of Allah, and Allah revealed it because the other Holy books got distorted, tampered by many people.

Allah has challenged in The Qur'an that no one can produce even a like of the verse of The Qur'an, as it is The True Word of Allah which has been revealed to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and Allah has revealed in The Qur'an that He will safeguard The Qur'an and preserve this Holy Book till the Day Of Judgement.

  



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 8:49am
Muhammad

Of course you aren't able to prove any of the things you state.




Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 8:56am

Dear Muhammad,

I respect your opinion and your religion, but I must humbly reject your assertion that the Qu'ran is THE only book.  We of other religions feel just as strongly that our "book" is the correct one.  Christians do NOT believe the Bible was distorted, etc., it was simply translated into various languages so everyone could read it.....the meaning(s) remain the same as when Jesus and all the prophets (who were inspired by God) wrote the Holy Scriptures and the Gospels.

God's Peace Always to You!



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 9:02am

Originally posted by Cyril

Patty

There are a few denominations which call themselves Christians but are not recognized as such by other Christians.
For example the Jehovah Witnesses believe in a duality consisting in a main God who created a lesser God (Jesus). The Mormons believe in a trinity composed of three separate Gods.
I heard only on the internet about the denomination you mention.

Muslims have the same problem with Alevi Turks and Syrian Nusayris who most certainly consider themselves as Muslims.

Oh yes, I'm aware of them.  Also included are the Unitarians and the Church of Scientology.  I do believe the Apostolics are considered to be Christians, but they're treading on very thin ice.  I'm familiar with them, and even attended their church on an occasion.  It scared me half to death!  There was much running up and down the aisles, speaking in tongues, falling down, etc.  Please know that I am not making fun of these people.  I know they are sincere and honestly believe in their chosen church.....but it did really frighten me.  They even had a band up front where the pulpit was...complete with guitars and drums!  I'm sorry for seeming to be intolerant.  I am very tolerant, but I felt about as far away from God in this church as I would in a nightclub on New Years Eve. 

I need to research the Apostolics to see if they are considered Christians, or a church unto themselves.  Thank you for the information, Cyril!

God's Peace to you.



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 9:40am

Originally posted by Cyril


Which denominations? I live in Europe in a Christian surrounding and never heard about them.

I am Mormon, we do not believe in the Trinity.  Jesus, Christ, the Son of God.  The Holy Spirit is a separate being too.

However, I would consider us MORE polytheistic than other Denominations. 

Elohim (God/Allah) is supreme.  Jehovah (Jesus, the Son) is the savior, and the Holy Spirit is the Comforter. 

Though we are Christians we are very different.  I've been involved in several arguements as to whether Mormons would be considered People of the Book.  With our polytheistic doctrines, our belief in Modern Prophets and the fact that most Christians call us non-Christian.



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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 9:47am

Originally posted by Cyril


There are a few denominations which call themselves Christians but are not recognized as such by other Christians.

This has always bugged me.  The fracturing of Christian denominations really leaves none with the authority to label what is or is not.  In the days of the Church undivided, the Patriarchs had that kind of authority.  But really, not any longer.  If you are Methodist its because you think they are the most right.  Or Catholic... Or Orthodox.

An Orthodox Priest is going to say that a Baptist Preacher is teaching false doctrines and therefore have deviated from the True Teachings of Christianity.

So really one group does not have a right to deny the label to the others.  Mormons believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.  They are Christians.  As are the Jehovah's Witnesses (as much as I dislike them) and the Seventh Day Adventists.



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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 9:53am

Dear Angela,

From you: "Elohim (God/Allah) is supreme.  Jehovah (Jesus, the Son) is the savior, and the Holy Spirit is the Comforter."

Since you declared Elohim (God/Allah) Supreme, you are already among the People of the Book. Congratulations.  

Having heard from you, we can say that Mormons should be considered People of the Book.

Hope Annie and George are not reading this.  I, hereby, declare that Mormons are the People of the Book. Welcome to the People of the Books Club.



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 9:55am
Patty

By your description of what you call Apostolics I recognized what we call Pentecostals.
Their main feature is the speaking in tongues which they attribute to the Holy Spirit visiting them, hence their name of Pentecostals. They are a branch of the large Evangelical churches.
In my opinion they are Christians as they adhere to the Trinity definition.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 10:01am

Angela,

I do not like to label anyone either.  I believe in the teachings and doctrines of my Church, Roman Catholic.  But it doesn't matter, in my opinion, what church a person embraces IF they are sincerely and honestly doing their best to follow the will of God.  If they accept God as their way to salvation, and are trying their very best to lead an upright, moral, and just life, I feel God will honor their efforts and grant them salvation on the Last Day.  The God I worship is a merciful God....and I'm certain he will grant us mercy when He judges us.  It is not His will that any be lost.  Why would he choose to send a morally upright person, whom he created and loves, to Hell because they found Him in a Baptist church, a Mormon Temple, or a Catholic Cathedral, rather than a, oh, I don't know, Pentacostal church?  I believe he is very fair and just when it comes to damning a person's soul to Hell for all eternity.  I believe Hell is reserved for those who refuse to accept Him, and those who commit hideous crimes for which they steadfastly refuse to ask His forgiveness.  God created us, He loves us dearly, we are His children.   He will show His love for us on Judgement Day.  And He will also show is sadness when He determines an individual did refuse to accept him during their lifetime. I believe God must be extremely saddened when He must send anyone to Hell.

So, no, I don't label people.  What's the purpose?

Love

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 10:12am

Angela

You are right when you say that an Orthodox may say to a Baptist that he is teaching false doctrines. But that Orthodox will never deny him the title of Christian as both believe in exactly the same Trinity.
All Christian denominations, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Copts, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Methodists, Baptists, etc, all believe in the same definition of the Trinity. So it is absolutely not a problem to see who is a Christian and who is not.
All the many quarrels and disputes of doctrine they have among themselves are about things apart from the Trinity.

If as a Mormon (or should I say a LDS?) you believe in three Gods, I don't understand why Bmz includes you among the People of the Book. It should be only for strict monotheists.



Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 10:16am

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad

Of course you aren't able to prove any of the things you state.

Come out in search of truth those who want to. Come out from the depth of darkness into light. If Allah wills Allah will guide you. 

 



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 10:36am

Originally posted by Cyril



If as a Mormon (or should I say a LDS?) you believe in three Gods, I don't understand why Bmz includes you among the People of the Book. It should be only for strict monotheists.

I'm not sure.  Really, I wonder.  LDS are the only Christians who accept Prophets after Jesus.  We accept Muhammed as an earlier Prophet, just not the last Prophet.  We accept there is some truth in the Quran but no all truths.

On the flip side, I think in a way our beliefs are more incompatible than standard Christian Ideologies.  Our practices might be very similar, but our doctrines are deeply divided.

Its one of the main reasons I never see myself taking Shahada even though I truly respect the Muslim faith.  Nor can I see myself ever returning to a mainstream Christian Church.  If I ever did that, it would be back to the Eastern Orthodox Church, and even then I don't feel that would have been the path for me.



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Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 12:38pm

Originally posted by Cyril

Patty

By your description of what you call Apostolics I recognized what we call Pentecostals.
Their main feature is the speaking in tongues which they attribute to the Holy Spirit visiting them, hence their name of Pentecostals. They are a branch of the large Evangelical churches.
In my opinion they are Christians as they adhere to the Trinity definition.

Cyril, here is an explanation of the Apostolic, or Oneness, religion.  I hope it will be helpful to you in understanding the difference between the two forms of Pentecostal faiths:

"Some Pentecostal churches hold to Oneness theology, which decries the traditional doctrine of the Trinity as unbiblical. The largest Pentecostal Oneness denomination in the United States is the United Pentecostal Church. Oneness Pentecostals, are sometimes known as "Jesus-Name", "Apostolics", or by their detractors as "Jesus only" Pentecostals. This is due to the belief that the original Apostles baptized converts in the name of Jesus. They also believe that God has revealed Himself in different roles rather than three distinct persons. The major trinitarian pentecostal organizations, however, including the Pentecostal World Conference and the Fellowship of Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches of North America, have condemned Oneness theology as a heresy and refuse membership to churches holding this belief. This same holds true for the Oneness Pentecostal towards trinitarian churches. It should be noted that in the UK the term "Apostolics" refers to members of the Apostolic Church (UK)" - a denomination which adheres to traditional evangelical teaching on the Trinity."

If you would care to learn more about the Apostolic or Oneness religious beliefs, you may click on the link:

http://www.lightplanet.com/christianity/pentacostal.html - http://www.lightplanet.com/christianity/pentacostal.html

God's Peace.



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 1:24pm
Muhammad77

If Allah wills Allah will guide you.


If you want to convince someone of the truth of Islam do not start with one of its most controversial tenet which is the doctrine of qadar.

Why should I believe if God has decided in advance that I should not believe?




Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 1:54pm
Interesting point, Cyril.  That teaching is similar to "predestination."

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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 11:23pm

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad77

If Allah wills Allah will guide you.


If you want to convince someone of the truth of Islam do not start with one of its most controversial tenet which is the doctrine of qadar.

Why should I believe if God has decided in advance that I should not believe?


You DO NOT know what God has decided for you. So you can come in search of truth ! You just need to begin ! Start in your journey towards truth ! Only then you will find in the end what has God decided for you.  

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 11:52pm

Muhammad77

Your quote:--- "You DO NOT know what God has decided for you. So you can come in search of truth ! You just need to begin ! Start in your journey towards truth ! Only then you will find in the end what has God decided for you."---

It getting worse! By your theology some people are supposed to  become good Muslims and on Resurrection day see themselves be cast into Hell. I hope you are wrong otherwise that would be so unfair.





Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 19 August 2006 at 12:00am

Originally posted by Cyril


Muhammad77

Your quote:--- "You DO NOT know what God has decided for you. So you can come in search of truth ! You just need to begin ! Start in your journey towards truth ! Only then you will find in the end what has God decided for you."---

It getting worse! By your theology some people are supposed to  become good Muslims and on Resurrection day see themselves be cast into Hell. I hope you are wrong otherwise that would be so unfair.



I am not getting you at all !! I am inviting you towards truth !! And you are talking about hell....

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 19 August 2006 at 12:41am

Muhammad77

I am talking about the teachings of Islam, which say you are either saved and go to Paradise (or should I say to a Garden?) or doomed and go to Hell.
 
As it has been decided in advance by Allah how do you know when you become a Muslim that you are saved?


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 19 August 2006 at 2:21am

Originally posted by Cyril


Muhammad77

I am talking about the teachings of Islam, which say you are either saved and go to Paradise (or should I say to a Garden?) or doomed and go to Hell.
 
As it has been decided in advance by Allah how do you know when you become a Muslim that you are saved?

The Torah, the Zabur, the Injeel - these Holy books have been distorted and tampered, and now we muslims do not believe in these books.

These books of Allah were only in their original form at the time when they were revealed to the respective Prophets, and we muslims believe in those books only in their original form , and that is the books in their form at the time when they were revealed to the respective Prophets. And only those people who were present at the time of those Prophets and who believed in Allah and who followed the Prophet and the Holy books revealed to them in their time (which was in their original form), those people are the believers.

And Allah has said that the Muslims from the ummah of Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam  will be the first of the people to enter Paradise Insha'Allah and that the people from the ummah of Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam will be in most number in Paradise Insha'Allah !

Today, the Christians have gone astray, so have the Jews, and so have all the people who have rejected Islam. They are the dwellers of hell-fire forever in the hereafter Insha'Allah.

Now, the only book to be followed is The Qur'an as it is the final word of Allah, and Allah revealed it because the other Holy books got distorted, tampered by many people.

The only Prophet to be followed now is Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and the only book to be believed in is the Holy Qur'an and the Only Lord to be worshipped is the True Lord, the Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the entire 'alamin, the Lord of the unseen and the seen, and He is Allah.

Allah has challenged in The Qur'an that no one can produce even a like of the verse of The Qur'an, as it is The True Word of Allah which has been revealed to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and Allah has revealed in The Qur'an that He will safeguard The Qur'an and preserve this Holy Book till the Day Of Judgement.

This faith which Muslims have (there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah) 'LAA ILAAHA ILLALLAH' is so precious faith, that Allah says that " if the seven heavens and those who dwell in them other than Allah and the seven earths are put into one pan (of the scale) and 'LAA ILAAHA ILLALLAH' is put into the other; 'LAA ILAAHA ILLALLAH' would be heavier."   subhanallah ! Allahu Akbar ! So precious is this faith ! So precious is a Muslim !

And such precious Muslims with this precious faith which Allah gifted Muslims alhamdulillah are on the straight path, and the Muslims will abide in Jannah (Paradise) forever Insha'Allah.

A Muslim is a believer. When Allah will cast the wrong-doers into the hell-fire, those wrong doers will be the disbelievers and some believers as well.

But Allah says that after the believer, that is, a Muslim has got his punishment for his bad deeds which exceeded the good deeds, Allah will remove that Muslim from hell-fire and allow him to enter Paradise forever because of his precious faith in Allah.

But a disbeliever, Allah says that Allah will burn the disbeliever in hell-fire forever unless Allah wills.

Allah knows best

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 19 August 2006 at 12:41pm
Muhammad77

This is what Mary the mother of Jesus says in the Quran (66:12):

"She recognized the truth of the Words of her Lord and of his Books".

Those words of Mary prove that at the time of Jesus the Books of God were still uncorrupted.
So when and by whom were those books corrupted?


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 19 August 2006 at 9:19pm

Hi Cyril,

From you: "She recognized the truth of the Words of her Lord and of his Books".

Yes, she recognised the truth. You and I can also do the same.

Let's have an example, without going into Qur'aan: Please read Isaiah in the Jewish Scriptures and compare it with Isaiah in the Christian Old Testament. Just between the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, one can find serious differences in the meanings and  interpretations. The Christian missionaries quote Isaiah the most.

An example: Isaiah 45:21-24

"Declare what is to be, present it - let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past?

Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Saviour, there is none but me.

"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, 'In the Lord alone are righteous and strength.' All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame."

So, The Lord confirmed all of above in all integrity. Did Jesus ever say anything like that himself, direct from his own mouth, "Every knee shall bow to me"? The answer: Jesus never said anything like that himself. Somebodyelse wrote that.

Personally, I don't like the word "corruption". However, looking at above, we can say that the Jewish Scriptures have been forged by  Christians.

If we look at above comparison, we can see clearly that not only God's words were changed but also the God was changed.  Please note that Qur'aan wasn't there at that time. That is what God the Lord, later mentions in Qur'aan by saying that the words of God were changed in the Scriptures of the past.

The Jews forged their own Scriptures, Thalmud is the evidence and the Christians forged the Jewish Scriptures.

BMZ

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 19 August 2006 at 11:12pm

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad77

This is what Mary the mother of Jesus says in the Quran (66:12):

"She recognized the truth of the Words of her Lord and of his Books".

Those words of Mary prove that at the time of Jesus the Books of God were still uncorrupted.
So when and by whom were those books corrupted?

Yes, the Injeel was uncorrupted at the time when it was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) and it has to be. It is logical that it was uncorrupted at that time. When Allah reveals a Holy Book to his Prophet, it is pure and in its original form. As I said, we Muslims believe in the Holy books when they were only in their original form.

But later as time progressed, as years passed by, many people corrupted these books.

So, finally, Allah revealed His final word The Holy Qur'an to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and Allah has promised that Allah will preserve this book from corruption till the Day of Judgement.

So now, The Qur'an is the only Holy Book to be believed in and followed, Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the only Prophet to be followed and Allah is The True Lord to be worshipped and to be believed in.

 



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 19 August 2006 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by Muhammad77

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad77

This is what Mary the mother of Jesus says in the Quran (66:12):

"She recognized the truth of the Words of her Lord and of his Books".

Those words of Mary prove that at the time of Jesus the Books of God were still uncorrupted.
So when and by whom were those books corrupted?

Yes, the Injeel was uncorrupted at the time when it was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) and it has to be. It is logical that it was uncorrupted at that time. When Allah reveals a Holy Book to his Prophet, it is pure and in its original form. As I said, we Muslims believe in the Holy books when they were only in their original form.

But later as time progressed, as years passed by, many people corrupted these books.

So, finally, Allah revealed His final word The Holy Qur'an to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and Allah has promised that Allah will preserve this book from corruption till the Day of Judgement.

So now, The Qur'an is the only Holy Book to be believed in and followed, Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the only Prophet to be followed and Allah is The True Lord to be worshipped and to be believed in.

 

Muhammad77 your above post especially the beginning premise of yor comment is quite wrong. you said:

>>>>Yes, the Injeel was uncorrupted at the time when it was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) and it has to be.<<<<

Notice the bold mark in your comment. Now if God sent jesus as truth to the Jews at the time why would God give Jesus a corruptable book?

Every zealous follow of the Abrahamic faith, especially literalist orthodox Muslims believes that paradise somehow is somewhat exclusive to Muslims as if we have the sole truth of the Almighty and the others due not. The TRUTH is not every single word in the Bible and Torah is corrupted. If so, then why do Muslim scholars quote from a cuorrupted doctrine? Such as the bible to prove points, Why would Muslim scholars try to prove  the prophet's foretelling in The Bible if its such a corrupted doctrine? The TRUTH is, the bible is not totally corrupted however I hope we can distinguish between the meaning of the Word and the Written Word.

As the Qur'an notes and I quote imperfectly that "Not all of the People of the Book are the same." TRUTH is our doctrines 9if broken down to its basic form) is mentioning the same TRUTH.

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:30am
BMZ

Your quote:---"Let's have an example, without going into Qur'aan: Please read Isaiah in the Jewish Scriptures and compare it with Isaiah in the Christian Old Testament. Just between the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, one can find serious differences in the meanings and  interpretations."----

Before I give you my opinion could you be clearer and explain what do you mean by "Christian Old testament".

Christians use only one Old Testament, in Hebrew, which is the Jewish Tanakh. Of course it is translated as the Quran in various languages.
Catholics add to it a few short books, written in Greek, of little theological importance.

Those who have written the New Testament in Greek used a slightly different Old testament called the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Tanakh. Instead of translating directly from the Tanakh they used the already existing Greek version.











Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:49am

Muhammad77

After Jesus' time the Jews were scattered through the world because of the crushing of their uprising by the Romans. Their religious enemies, the Christians, were scattered too.

So how do you imagine an identical corruption of the Bible taking place at the same time in widely scattered and often competing communities?
That does not hold for a second.

Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted. So why would he protect them until the time of Jesus and let them be corrupted after?

Before asking people to believe in the Quran you must show that the Quran is worth believing in it.






Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:02am

Cyril: "Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted."

Can you please quote verse in Qur'an that says so?

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:07am
Originally posted by Israfil

Originally posted by Muhammad77

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad77

This is what Mary the mother of Jesus says in the Quran (66:12):

"She recognized the truth of the Words of her Lord and of his Books".

Those words of Mary prove that at the time of Jesus the Books of God were still uncorrupted.
So when and by whom were those books corrupted?

Yes, the Injeel was uncorrupted at the time when it was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) and it has to be. It is logical that it was uncorrupted at that time. When Allah reveals a Holy Book to his Prophet, it is pure and in its original form. As I said, we Muslims believe in the Holy books when they were only in their original form.

But later as time progressed, as years passed by, many people corrupted these books.

So, finally, Allah revealed His final word The Holy Qur'an to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and Allah has promised that Allah will preserve this book from corruption till the Day of Judgement.

So now, The Qur'an is the only Holy Book to be believed in and followed, Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the only Prophet to be followed and Allah is The True Lord to be worshipped and to be believed in.

 

Muhammad77 your above post especially the beginning premise of yor comment is quite wrong. you said:

>>>>Yes, the Injeel was uncorrupted at the time when it was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) and it has to be.<<<<

Notice the bold mark in your comment. Now if God sent jesus as truth to the Jews at the time why would God give Jesus a corruptable book?

Every zealous follow of the Abrahamic faith, especially literalist orthodox Muslims believes that paradise somehow is somewhat exclusive to Muslims as if we have the sole truth of the Almighty and the others due not. The TRUTH is not every single word in the Bible and Torah is corrupted. If so, then why do Muslim scholars quote from a cuorrupted doctrine? Such as the bible to prove points, Why would Muslim scholars try to prove  the prophet's foretelling in The Bible if its such a corrupted doctrine? The TRUTH is, the bible is not totally corrupted however I hope we can distinguish between the meaning of the Word and the Written Word.

As the Qur'an notes and I quote imperfectly that "Not all of the People of the Book are the same." TRUTH is our doctrines 9if broken down to its basic form) is mentioning the same TRUTH.

 

Yes, the entire Injeel is NOT corrupted. But some parts or verses are still there in there original form. We Muslims do not believe in such Holy books which have the slightest of corruption. Allah did NOT give Jesus (pbuh) a corrupted book. Whenever Allah reveals a book to His Prophet, it is pure and in its original form. But there are some mischievious people on earth who made changes in these Holy books. So Allah finally revealed His final word The Holy Qur'an to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Allah has said that like the previous Holy Books which got corrupted, Allah will not let this happen with The Holy Qur'an as it is His final word to mankind. Allah has challenged that nobody can produce even a like of a verse of The Qur'an. Allah has said that Allah will protect The Holy Qur'an from corruption till the Day Of Judgement.

 



Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 5:19am

Originally posted by Cyril


Before asking people to believe in the Quran you must show that the Quran is worth believing in it.

We should NOT be talking of 'worth' when it comes to the true word of Allah.

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 8:30am

Peacemaker


Cyril: "Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted."

Can you please quote verse in Qur'an that says so


10-64)"lâ tabdîla likalimâti llâhi" "There is no change in the Words of Allah"

6-34)"walâ mubaddila likalimâti llâhi" "No one can modify the Words of Allah"

There is also the answer from logic: if Allah is all-powerful and does not want the Quran to be tampered with, why would he have let the other Books to be tampered with?




Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Cyril

Peacemaker


Cyril: "Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted."

Can you please quote verse in Qur'an that says so


10-64)"lâ tabdîla likalimâti llâhi" "There is no change in the Words of Allah"

6-34)"walâ mubaddila likalimâti llâhi" "No one can modify the Words of Allah"

There is also the answer from logic: if Allah is all-powerful and does not want the Quran to be tampered with, why would he have let the other Books to be tampered with?


Allah has recorded everything.

Allah decreed that The Qur'an would be His final true word to the entire mankind. Allah decreed that Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would be the final messenger.

Allah knows that which we know not. Allah is The All-Knower of all the things. Allah is The All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. We cannot question Allah. Allah The Most High does as He wills.

 



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 10:36am

Cyril,

From you: "Before I give you my opinion could you be clearer and explain what do you mean by "Christian Old testament"."

Good question, Cyril. The Christian Bible has two parts. One is the Old Testament and the other is the New Testament.

The Jews DO NOT ACCEPT the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. They go to the extent that they even do not read the Old Testament of the Christian Bible.

That is why, in my discussions, I make it a point to differentiate between the Jewish Holy Scriptures and the Old Testament of Christians.

From you, Cyril: "Those who have written the New Testament in Greek used a slightly different Old testament called the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Tanakh. Instead of translating directly from the Tanakh they used the already existing Greek version."

You have already provided the answer. The Jews use only the Hebrew, not Greek. Their Scriptures were even there far before the Greek language evolved. That slight difference, that you mentioned above, has made a huge difference in the meaning and interpretation of the Jewish Scriptures by the Christians.

If I may ask, who should know the Jewish Scriptures better? The Jews or the Christians? Definitely, the answer would be the Jews! Neither the Greeks nor the Christian writers would take precedence over the Jews.

That is why I suggested reading only Isaiah of the Jewish Scriptures and requested comparing with the Isaiah in the OT (not accepted by the Jews). For example, everything and every suffering that is mentioned about Israel the Servant, it is used to foretell the suffering of Jesus. 



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 20 August 2006 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Cyril

Peacemaker


Cyril: "Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted."

Can you please quote verse in Qur'an that says so


10-64)"lâ tabdîla likalimâti llâhi" "There is no change in the Words of Allah"

6-34)"walâ mubaddila likalimâti llâhi" "No one can modify the Words of Allah"

There is also the answer from logic: if Allah is all-powerful and does not want the Quran to be tampered with, why would he have let the other Books to be tampered with?


010.062
YUSUFALI: Behold! verily on the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve;
PICKTHAL: Lo! verily the friends of Allah are (those) on whom fear (cometh) not, nor do they grieve?
SHAKIR: Now surely the friends of Allah-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

010.063
YUSUFALI: Those who believe and (constantly) guard against evil;-
PICKTHAL: Those who believe and keep their duty (to Allah).
SHAKIR: Those who believe and guarded (against evil):

010.064
YUSUFALI: For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.
PICKTHAL: Theirs are good tidings in the life of the world and in the Hereafter - There is no changing the Words of Allah - that is the Supreme Triumph.
SHAKIR: They shall have good news in this world's life and in the hereafter; there is no changing the words of Allah; that is the mighty achievement.

010.065
YUSUFALI: Let not their speech grieve thee: for all power and honour belong to Allah: It is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).
PICKTHAL: And let not their speech grieve thee (O Muhammad). Lo! power belongeth wholly to Allah. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR: And let not their speech grieve you; surely might is wholly Allah's; He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

010.066
YUSUFALI: Behold! verily to Allah belong all creatures, in the heavens and on earth. What do they follow who worship as His "partners" other than Allah? They follow nothing but fancy, and they do nothing but lie.
PICKTHAL: Lo! is it not unto Allah that belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and whosoever is in the earth? Those who follow aught instead of Allah follow not (His) partners. They follow only a conjecture, and they do but guess.
SHAKIR: Now, surely, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and they do not (really) follow any associates, who call on others besides Allah; they do not follow (anything) but conjectures, and they only lie.

010.067
YUSUFALI: He it is That hath made you the night that ye may rest therein, and the day to make things visible (to you). Verily in this are signs for those who listen (to His Message).
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath appointed for you the night that ye should rest therein and the day giving sight. Lo! herein verily are portents for a folk that heed.
SHAKIR: He it is Who made for you the night that you might rest in it, and the day giving light; most surely there are signs in it for a people who would hear.

010.068
YUSUFALI: They say: "Allah hath begotten a son!" - Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
PICKTHAL: They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a son - Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
SHAKIR: They say: Allah has taken a son (to Himself)! Glory be to Him: He is the Self-sufficient: His is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth; you have no authority for this; do you say against Allah what you do not know?

010.069
YUSUFALI: Say: "Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper."
PICKTHAL: Say: Verily those who invent a lie concerning Allah will not succeed.
SHAKIR: Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful.

This way the meaning of 10: 64 becomes clear that Allah's promise to His true servants will never change. This has nothing to do with corruption in Scriptures.

006.024
YUSUFALI: Behold! how they lie against their own souls! But the (lie) which they invented will leave them in the lurch.
PICKTHAL: See how they lie against themselves, and (how) the thing which they devised hath failed them!
SHAKIR: See how they lie against their own souls, and that which they forged has passed away from them.

006.025
YUSUFALI: Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients."
PICKTHAL: Of them are some who listen unto thee, but We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness. If they saw every token they would not believe therein; to the point that, when they come unto thee to argue with thee, the disbelievers say: This is naught else than fables of the men of old.
SHAKIR: And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say: This is naught but the stories of the ancients.

006.026
YUSUFALI: Others they keep away from it, and themselves they keep away; but they only destroy their own souls, and they perceive it not.
PICKTHAL: And they forbid (men) from it and avoid it, and they ruin none save themselves, though they perceive not.
SHAKIR: And they prohibit (others) from it and go far away from it, and they only bring destruction upon their own souls while they do not perceive.

006.027
YUSUFALI: If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with the Fire! They will say: "Would that we were but sent back! Then would we not reject the signs of our Lord, but would be amongst those who believe!"
PICKTHAL: If thou couldst see when they are set before the Fire and say: Oh, would that we might return! Then would we not deny the revelations of our Lord but we would be of the believers!
SHAKIR: And could you see when they are made to stand before the fire, then they shall say: Would that we were sent back, and we would not reject the communications of our Lord and we would be of the believers.

006.028
YUSUFALI: Yea, in their own (eyes) will become manifest what before they concealed. But if they were returned, they would certainly relapse to the things they were forbidden, for they are indeed liars.
PICKTHAL: Nay, but that hath become clear unto them which before they used to hide. And if they were sent back they would return unto that which they are forbidden. Lo! they are liars.
SHAKIR: Nay, what they concealed before shall become manifest to them; and if they were sent back, they would certainly go back to that which they are forbidden, and most surely they are liars.

006.029
YUSUFALI: And they (sometimes) say: "There is nothing except our life on this earth, and never shall we be raised up again."
PICKTHAL: And they say: There is naught save our life of the world, and we shall not be raised (again).
SHAKIR: And they say: There is nothing but our life of this world, and we shall not be raised.

006.030
YUSUFALI: If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with their Lord! He will say: "Is not this the truth?" They will say: "Yea, by our Lord!" He will say: "Taste ye then the penalty, because ye rejected Faith."
PICKTHAL: If thou couldst see when they are set before their Lord! He will say: Is not this real? They will say: Yea, verily, by our Lord! He will say: Taste now the retribution for that ye used to disbelieve.
SHAKIR: And could you see when they are made to stand before their Lord. He will say: Is not this the truth? They will say: Yea! by our Lord. He will say: Taste then the chastisement because you disbelieved.

006.031
YUSUFALI: Lost indeed are they who treat it as a falsehood that they must meet Allah,- until on a sudden the hour is on them, and they say: "Ah! woe unto us that we took no thought of it"; for they bear their burdens on their backs, and evil indeed are the burdens that they bear?
PICKTHAL: They indeed are losers who deny their meeting with Allah until, when the Hour cometh on them suddenly, they cry: Alas for us, that we neglected it! They bear upon their backs their burdens. Ah, evil is that which they bear!
SHAKIR: They are losers indeed who reject the meeting of Allah; until when the hour comes upon them all of a sudden they shall say: O our grief for our neglecting it! and they shall bear their burdens on their backs; now surely evil is that which they bear.

006.032
YUSUFALI: What is the life of this world but play and amusement? But best is the home in the hereafter, for those who are righteous. Will ye not then understand?
PICKTHAL: Naught is the life of the world save a pastime and a spot. Better far is the abode of the Hereafter for those who keep their duty (to Allah). Have ye then no sense?
SHAKIR: And this world's life is naught but a play and an idle sport and certainly the abode of the hereafter is better for those who guard (against evil); do you not then understand?

006.033
YUSUFALI: We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: it is the signs of Allah, which the wicked contemn.
PICKTHAL: We know well how their talk grieveth thee, though in truth they deny not thee (Muhammad) but evil-doers flout the revelations of Allah.
SHAKIR: We know indeed that what they say certainly grieves you, but surely they do not call you a liar; but the unjust deny the communications of Allah.

006.034
YUSUFALI: Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.
PICKTHAL: Messengers indeed have been denied before thee, and they were patient under the denial and the persecution till Our succour reached them. There is none to alter the decisions of Allah. Already there hath reached thee (somewhat) of the tidings of the messengers (We sent before).
SHAKIR: And certainly messengers before you were rejected, but they were patient on being rejected and persecuted until Our help came to them; and there is none to change the words of Allah, and certainly there has come to you some information about the messengers.

006.035
YUSUFALI: If their spurning is hard on thy mind, yet if thou wert able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,- (what good?). If it were Allah's will, He could gather them together unto true guidance: so be not thou amongst those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience)!
PICKTHAL: And if their aversion is grievous unto thee, then, if thou canst, seek a way down into the earth or a ladder unto the sky that thou mayst bring unto them a portent (to convince them all)! - If Allah willed, He could have brought them all together to the guidance - So be not thou among the foolish ones.

SHAKIR: And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant.

006.036
YUSUFALI: Those who listen (in truth), be sure, will accept: as to the dead, Allah will raise them up; then will they be turned unto Him.
PICKTHAL: Only those can accept who hear. As for the dead, Allah will raise them up; then unto Him they will be returned.
SHAKIR: Only those accept who listen; and (as to) the dead, Allah will raise them, then to Him they shall be returned.

006.037
YUSUFALI: They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah hath certainly power to send down a sign: but most of them understand not.
PICKTHAL: They say: Why hath no portent been sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: Lo! Allah is Able to send down a portent. But most of them know not.
SHAKIR: And they say: Why has not a sign been sent down to him from his Lord? Say: Surely Allah is able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know.

006.038
YUSUFALI: There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
PICKTHAL: There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.
SHAKIR: And there is no animal that walks upon the earth nor a bird that flies with its two wings but (they are) genera like yourselves; We have not neglected anything in the Book, then to their Lord shall they be gathered.

006.039
YUSUFALI: Those who reject our signs are deaf and dumb,- in the midst of darkness profound: whom Allah willeth, He leaveth to wander: whom He willeth, He placeth on the way that is straight.
PICKTHAL: Those who deny Our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Whom Allah will sendeth astray, and whom He will He placeth on a straight path.
SHAKIR: And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.

006.040
YUSUFALI: Say: "Think ye to yourselves, if there come upon you the wrath of Allah, or the Hour (that ye dread), would ye then call upon other than Allah?- (reply) if ye are truthful!
PICKTHAL: Say: Can ye see yourselves, if the punishment of Allah come upon you or the Hour come upon you, (calling upon other than Allah)? Do ye then call (for help) to any other than Allah? (Answer that) if ye are truthful.
SHAKIR: Say: Tell me if the chastisement of Allah should overtake you or the hour should come upon you, will you call (on others) besides Allah, if you are truthful?

006.041

YUSUFALI: "Nay,- On Him would ye call, and if it be His will, He would remove (the distress) which occasioned your call upon Him, and ye would forget (the false gods) which ye join with Him!"
PICKTHAL: Nay, but unto Him ye call, and He removeth that because of which ye call unto Him, if He will, and ye forget whatever partners ye ascribed unto Him.
SHAKIR: Nay, Him you call upon, so He clears away that for which you pray if He pleases and you forget what you set up (with Him).

006.042
YUSUFALI: Before thee We sent (messengers) to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility.
PICKTHAL: We have sent already unto peoples that were before thee, and We visited them with tribulation and adversity, in order that they might grow humble.
SHAKIR: And certainly We sent (messengers) to nations before you then We seized them with distress and affliction in order that they might humble themselves.

006.043
YUSUFALI: When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.
PICKTHAL: If only, when Our disaster came on them, they had been humble! But their hearts were hardened and the devil made all that they used to do seem fair unto them!
SHAKIR: Yet why did they not, when Our punishment came to them, humble themselves? But their hearts hardened and the Shaitan made what they did fair-seeming to them.

006.044
YUSUFALI: But when they forgot the warning they had received, We opened to them the gates of all (good) things, until, in the midst of their enjoyment of Our gifts, on a sudden, We called them to account, when lo! they were plunged in despair!
PICKTHAL: Then, when they forgot that whereof they had been reminded, We opened unto them the gates of all things till, even as they were rejoicing in that which they were given, We seized them unawares, and lo! they were dumbfounded.
SHAKIR: But when they neglected that with which they had been admonished, We opened for them the doors of all things, until when they rejoiced in what they were given We seized them suddenly; then lo! they were in utter despair.

006.045
YUSUFALI: Of the wrong-doers the last remnant was cut off. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher of the worlds.
PICKTHAL: So of the people who did wrong the last remnant was cut off. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: So the roots of the people who were unjust were cut off; and all praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

This way 6:34 can better be understood. Allah says that those who mocked His Messengers were punished, that Allah's decree to punish those who laughed at His Messengers didn't change.

Quoting verses without proper context doesn’t do any good.

Peace

 



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 29 August 2006 at 7:19am

Originally posted by In Islam for non-muslims section Cyril

Muhammad

So according to you (or to your link?) Christians are disbelievers. Compared to Islam I can agree with that conclusion. I have always said that Islam and Christianity are different religions, contrary to those who say both believe in the same God.

So Christians are no longer people of the Book. Have the verses that say they are been put into the category of the abrogated verses?

 

The Torah, the Zabur, the Injeel - these Holy books have been distorted and tampered, and now we muslims do not believe in these books.

These books of Allah were only in their original form at the time when they were revealed to the respective Prophets, and we muslims believe in those books only in their original form , and that is the books in their form at the time when they were revealed to the respective Prophets. And only those people who were present at the time of those Prophets and who believed in Allah and who followed the Prophet and the Holy books revealed to them in their time (which was in their original form), those people are the believers, and those people are the people of The Book.

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 29 August 2006 at 7:51am

Muhammad77

I agree with you that people of the Book must
1) be believers (that includes Jews and Christians)
2) have beliefs similar to those of Muslims (that includes Jews but not Christians).

If Christians had the same beliefs as Muslims before they went astray, there must be traces of that in history. Do those traces exist?

Does the Quran make a distinction between two kinds of Christians, those who followed the eternal religion of Islam (and deserved the name of people of the Book) and those from today?

When are Christians supposed to have split, as I have never heard of that?

If there existed Christians as people of the Book what happened to them?







Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 29 August 2006 at 9:06am

Beliefnet has a quiz you can take to see what religion  you best fit into.  I have had several Muslim friends take the quiz.  They always come up with 100% Muslim and 100% Jewish....Christianity falls further down the list.

I took the test as a Christian and Islam and Judaism fell about halfway down the list...of course, so did many Christian denominations.



-------------


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 30 August 2006 at 4:50am

Originally posted by Cyril


Muhammad77

I agree with you that people of the Book must
1) be believers (that includes Jews and Christians)
2) have beliefs similar to those of Muslims (that includes Jews but not Christians).

If Christians had the same beliefs as Muslims before they went astray, there must be traces of that in history. Do those traces exist?

No. The traces do not exist. Because The Bible has been tampered, distorted by many people.

Originally posted by Cyril

Does the Quran make a distinction between two kinds of Christians, those who followed the eternal religion of Islam (and deserved the name of people of the Book) and those from today?

The Qur'an does not make distinction between two kinds of Christians. What is just says is the People of The book. And when Allah says about The Book, He talks about The Book which was revealed to the respective Prophets in their original form, and so the people of The Book are those people who were present at the time of their respective Prophets and believed and worshipped Allah and believed in The Holy Book revealed to them (in its original form).


Originally posted by Cyril

When are Christians supposed to have split, as I have never heard of that?

Instead of 'split', the true correct statement is - The Christians have gone astray.

Originally posted by Cyril

If there existed Christians as people of the Book what happened to them?
 

They died. Then after them there began to come people who were mischievious and they tampered, distorted The Book revealed to their Prophet.

 



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 30 August 2006 at 7:34am
With all due respect, the priests, monks, and friars of antiquity did not "mischieviously tamper, distort, or corrupt" the Bible.  All they did was translate it into languages that could be read by all the people.  The Gospel and all scriptures are the same as they've always been, the ONLY difference is they were translated to make them understandable in a variety of languages. 

-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 30 August 2006 at 7:58am

Muhammad77

Now the last question:
Why isn't the existence and disappearence of the Islamic Christians known and taught by history books and schools?


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 30 August 2006 at 9:09am

Perhaps we are ultimately dealing here with an amalgamation.  As I see it, Christianity, doctrinally speaking, seems highly syncretistic (in its formative stages) and seems also to have repeatedly morphed.

 

At any rate, and as it relates especially to the ante-Nicene period, consider the history of the Ebionites and the unfortunate misplacement of their book, the Gospel According to the Hebrews (not to be confused with either the canonical Gospel According to Matthew or Epistle to the Hebrews), originally written in Hebrew, according to the compiler of the Vulgate, St. Jerome, who had it at hand (1).

 

It is said that Ibn-Warraq read from the Gospel, or Injil, in Hebrew (2).

 

To me, the Ebionites (and certain concepts such as the docetism found with the Basilidean and Simonian Gnostics) sound like plausible candidates for the so-called “Islamic Christians” and their history, though remote and somewhat obscure, is in fact taught in history books and schools, at least it is taught in some of them.

 

But still, I like to think of myself as a person of the book, even if I am not an Ebionite.  It seems somehow comforting.  It might also be kept in mind, at least in the Christians’ minds, that “book” is not always meant to be taken literally.  Consider, for example, the “Lamb’s book of Life” referred to in the Revelation of St. John (21:27) as a case in point.  It would seem futile to go in search through history to locate this one, this “Lamb’s book of life.”

 

Serv

Ref:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhar i/001.sbt.html#001.001.00 



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 30 August 2006 at 9:34am

Good Morning & Welcome Serv

You are a man of the Books and certainly you are from the People of the Book!

Good Night

BMZ



Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 30 August 2006 at 11:20pm

Originally posted by Cyril


Muhammad77

Now the last question:
Why isn't the existence and disappearence of the Islamic Christians known and taught by history books and schools?

History contains so many things, from the start till this time, but do history books contain each and every minute event?  No.  So don't worry about whether they are mentioned or not in the history books. So many things have happened which are not there in the history books.

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 2:22am
Muhammad77

You must be joking.
Whole libraries have been written about the history of Christianity.
 Such an interesting event as the existence of Islamic Christians would have been documented and taught in every religion class.

There are so many things that are mentioned in the Quran and are not found in reality. I am afraid we have to add those "Islamic" Christians to the list.



Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 7:11am

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad77

You must be joking.
Whole libraries have been written about the history of Christianity.
 Such an interesting event as the existence of Islamic Christians would have been documented and taught in every religion class.

There are so many things that are mentioned in the Quran and are not found in reality. I am afraid we have to add those "Islamic" Christians to the list.

Ok, then may be even those people who write the books may not be knowing anything about it. We don't know much about the "Islamic" Christians because those "Islamic" Christians were there only for a short period of time. As time passed on, tampering, distorting of The Bible began to take place.

Or even if something is known about "Islamic" Christians, they would not be writing it in the books purposely, because they may be wanting to reject the truth and hide the reality.

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 8:15am

Muhammad77

As time passed on, tampering, distorting of The Bible began to take place.


You still have not explained how the tampering could have taken place knowing that the same Bible (minus the NT) was in the hands of the Jews and in those of the Christians, and knowing their fierce religious opposition, which would have prevented a concerted tampering.

You must also explain why the Jews tampered with their Scriptures and showed up to now the utmost care in their written preservation.

You must also explain how come all copies of the Bible that date from before Jesus' time are identical with those from after his time.

 



Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 9:55am

Cyril,

They did not know that it would get tampered. They just followed the instructions and allowed them to translate into different languages, so that people could understand, but this translation resulted in the tampering and distorting of The Bible. The same thing happened with other scriptures as well.



 



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 10:48am

So the translated versions of the Bible are corrupted?

What about the copies that exist dating prior to the diaspora that are still in the native tongue?



-------------


Posted By: ZEA J
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 11:10pm

Originally posted by Patty

With all due respect, the priests, monks, and friars of antiquity did not "mischieviously tamper, distort, or corrupt" the Bible.  All they did was translate it into languages that could be read by all the people.  The Gospel and all scriptures are the same as they've always been, the ONLY difference is they were translated to make them understandable in a variety of languages. 

Patty



-------------
"You will never attain piety and righteousness,(and eventually paradise)until you
spend of that which you love."(Al-Imran:92)


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 01 September 2006 at 5:39am

Angela,

The entire Injeel is NOT corrupted. But some parts or verses are still there in their original form. We Muslims do not believe in such Holy books which have the slightest of corruption. Allah did NOT give Jesus (pbuh) a corrupted book. Whenever Allah reveals a book to His Prophet, it is pure and in its original form. But there are some people on earth who distorted, tampered these Holy books. So Allah finally revealed His final word The Holy Qur'an to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

Allah has challenged in The Qur'an that no one can produce even a like of the verse of The Qur'an, as it is The True Word of Allah which has been revealed to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and Allah has revealed in The Qur'an that He will safeguard The Qur'an and preserve this Holy Book till the Day Of Judgement.

The only Prophet to be followed now is Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and the only book to be believed in is the Holy Qur'an and the Only Lord to be worshipped is the True Lord, the Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the entire 'alamin, the Lord of the unseen and the seen, and He is Allah, and the only religion that is accepted by Allah is Islam.

 



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 01 September 2006 at 1:26pm
Muhammad

But there are some people on earth who distorted, tampered these Holy books


Who, when and where? It is not only your credibility which is at stake.


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 01 September 2006 at 11:20pm

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad

But there are some people on earth who distorted, tampered these Holy books


Who, when and where? It is not only your credibility which is at stake.

Those who translated the Holy Books in different languages are the ones by which those Holy Books got distorted and tampered.

 



Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 1:10am
Originally posted by Muhammad77

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad

But there are some people on earth who distorted, tampered these Holy books


Who, when and where? It is not only your credibility which is at stake.

Those who translated the Holy Books in different languages are the ones by which those Holy Books got distorted and tampered.

Muhammad, how do you get into this conclusion, that the translators are the corruptors instead of the copyist? Just curious you know.



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 12:24pm

All copies of the Bible are the same. Where are the distorted ones?


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 8:52pm

superme,

"Muhammad, how do you get into this conclusion, that the translators are the corruptors instead of the copyist? Just curious you know."

Good question to Muhammad.

Muhammad, that is a huge tip from superme. If you cannot capitalise on this tip, Cyril's question still stands!

superme,



Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by bmzsp

Muhammad, that is a huge tip from superme. If you cannot capitalise on this tip, Cyril's question still stands!

Actually it was not tip at all, just wondering why Muhammad was so sure that the translators were the corruptors. I have never seen the original manuscripts, beside they are in Greeks.



Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by superme

Originally posted by Muhammad77

Originally posted by Cyril

Muhammad

But there are some people on earth who distorted, tampered these Holy books


Who, when and where? It is not only your credibility which is at stake.

Those who translated the Holy Books in different languages are the ones by which those Holy Books got distorted and tampered.

Muhammad, how do you get into this conclusion, that the translators are the corruptors instead of the copyist? Just curious you know.

I do not know about their intentions. The Holy Books got distorted and tampered when they were translated into different languages by the translators.

 



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 03 September 2006 at 8:33am

superme,

No comments.

BMZ



Posted By: Daniel Dworsky
Date Posted: 04 September 2006 at 12:01am
Okay I'll bite.
I've read and was forced in school (yeshivah) to study and memorize the
Torah (old testament) In it's original hebrew. By the time I was Bar Mitzvah
(13) I could recite/sing it pole to pole.

The King James (Standard English Bible) Is different in some places.
Mostly it's just a word here and there with a pivotal meaning. But bear in
mind that some of these mistakes are devastatingly different from the
gentle intent of this book. For this reason I would never entirely trust an
English version of the Quran with out consulting a Muslim scholar fluent
in formal arabic.

Like the Quran the Torah is sung and is governed by a series of rules
hedged in continuity. Some rules are based in musical phrasing while
some are embedded in gemetria (possibly an after thought but very hip)
but mostly the key is in strict gramtical laws that are in place to insure yet
another level of continuity. It's a code a series of codes really to insure
that no one changes anything with out it leaving a visible scar.

Here's an expert to read up on. I think he made us all look good in the
eyes of Allah.

The Rambam (Maimonedes) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
Has always been my favorite theological scholar

His father was, through no fault of his own at odds with the politics of
religion in spain (Cordova) at the time. The whole family was forced to
move to Alexandria (Egypt) The son had great respect for Islam and
benifited himself, his family and contributed to the worlds knowledge and
practice of medical science. He discovered and devised treatments that
are still healing people today physically, mentally and spiritually. This
was largely due to the tolerance of the then king of Egypt who was an
equal opportunity employer.

When people of different Faiths and Races put their heads together for a
good cause it really annoys Satan.


Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 07 September 2006 at 10:49pm

Originally posted by Cyril


Muhammad77

Now the last question:
Why isn't the existence and disappearence of the Islamic Christians known and taught by history books and schools?

One event of their existence is mentioned in Quran and in the history.

As to) those whom We gave the Book before it, they are believers in it And when it is recited to them they say: We believe in it surely it is the truth from our Lord; surely we were submitters before this. These shall be granted their reward twice, because they are steadfast and they repel evil with good and spend out of what We have given them. And when they hear idle talk they turn aside from it and say: We shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; peace be on you, we do not desire the ignorant. (28:52-55)

These verses of Quran above are referring to an event which took place in Makkah.After the migration of Muslims from Makka to Hubshaw and the people there come to know about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). About twenty Christians from there came to investigate the truth. They met the Prophet (pbuh) in Kabah.People of Qurash (nonbelievers) saw these people having discussion with Prophet (pbuh), so they stand nearby to see whats happening.

The people of habshaw ask few questions from Prophet (pbuh). Prophet (pbuh) answered them and then He recited the few verses of Quran for them. After listening the Quran, tears strats falling from their eyes. After that they accepted the verses are from Allah and also recognized the Muhammad (pbuh) as a Prophet of Allah.

When the meeting was over then Abu Jehel (the famous nonbeliever) caught them on the way back. They got angry over them. They ask these twenty people that your people send you here to investigate about Him but you people just sit with Him and leave your faith and accepted His faith?

People from Habshaw told them that peace upon you, we don’t want to argue with you people. Lets us follow our way and you follow your way. We can not turnaway intentionally from goodness. We were Muslim before as well.

Usmani



-------------
Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds


Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 15 September 2006 at 10:19pm
Why no one responding to my post? I am surprised.

-------------
Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Usmani

One event of their existence is mentioned in Quran and in the history.



Give us now the version from history.


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Usmani

Why no one responding to my post? I am surprised.


because salman/salman_s/muslim_brother/mohammad_77

has been banned with his other fake ID's.

Dont worry he is back with new fake ID, lets see how long he lasts this time....

-------------


Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 17 September 2006 at 11:48pm

Cyril

This event has been ralated by Ibn Hisham,Baihaql and others on the authority of Ibn Ishq.

There is a web link,please refer to the foot note No.72 on page No.38-39.It would be better if you will keep reading few more pages to know the Quran intance on that.

http://www.millat.com/quranpak/modoodi/tafheem%20english/028 %20AL-QASAS/book.htm



-------------
Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 30 September 2006 at 10:49am

Dear BMZ,

 

Please excuse my delay and thank you for assuring me that I am included as a man of the Book.  I hope that your Ramadan is filled with blessings and I am pleased to have met you this year. 

 

Your matie (but not ‘auliya [Quran 5:51),

 

Serv



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 30 September 2006 at 8:29pm

Dear Serv,

Thanks for the kind note and I wish all the blessings for you and the family, too.

"Your matie (but not ‘auliya [Quran 5:51)"

Yes, you are my Wali (Friend). A good, dear and close friend is also called Rafeeq or Habeeb in Arabic. Aulia is the plural of Wali.

When an i is added at the end habeeb becomes habeebi and Rafeeq becomes Rafeeqi which means my dear friend.

Hence, from now on, I would be calling you Habeebi.

Thanks & Warm Regards, Habeebi

BMZ




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