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RE: Angela’s Plan

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Politics
Forum Name: Current Events
Forum Discription: Current Events
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5529
Printed Date: 24 October 2014 at 11:16am


Topic: RE: Angela’s Plan
Posted By: Colin
Subject: RE: Angela’s Plan
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 2:44am

 

The new planning forum for all those who wish to take part, is now set-up and ready for business. Follow the link at the bottom of this post.

The new forum is at the top of the list of forums, entitled: "Global Planning Department". Remember, you will have to register as a member before you can start posting.

Everyone who thinks they can contribute to this project is welcome at the new HQ. 

Cheers, Colin

http://p2.forumforfree.com/acrossthepond.html - http://p2.forumforfree.com/acrossthepond.html




Replies:
Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 5:11am

Bismillah,

I checked in, Colin, and am eager to see Sister Angela's forum up and running soon.

Peace



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 6:09am
Originally posted by herjihad

Bismillah,

I checked in, Colin, and am eager to see Sister Angela's forum up and running soon.

Peace

Good stuff Herjihad. It will take a while to get into gear, but before long, we'll be in full flow.



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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 2:18pm
I signed up the other day....I'll be MormonGirl over there.

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Posted By: Muslima
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 2:44pm
I saw the forum and basically this is just a discussion of non-Muslims taking decision for the Muslim world. Why cannot you leave the discussion here? Are there too many Muslims here to take part?

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Allah Ou Akbar!


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 2:58pm

No, I'm taking it from here so as to remove those who don't sincerely want to participate.  I was making the MSN group so that we would not be distracting from any forums atmosphere.  I want Muslim participation.  But I don't want people who would advocate a mother convincing her 17 year old son to strap on a Bomb as a viable solution.  I want TRUE Muslims who fear God and follow all his commandments, like Thou Shall Not Kill.  Sasha is Muslim, he's going to be our center and our task Master.  He will keep us in focus.  He's not a Zionist puppet. He dislikes the west and he will insure that the Muslims we are trying to help are the ones benefitting from this plan. 

We are leaving here so that the project cannot be hijacked by troublemakers and so that we are not at the mercy of the Moderators here who may not want to be part of the project.  Colin has been so kind as to lend Across the Pond....the MSN group will be for documents, chat sessions and links....But, the links will be here for those who are truly interested in coming over.  All are welcome, but those that come better be willing to honestly work.  No fence sitters needed.



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Posted By: Muslima
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 3:01pm

So now we have a Mormon saying who is a TRUE Muslim, and who is not! 

I trust Whisper, so this is cool for me. I am not participating by the way. If it were not for Whisper.....Anyway, Allah Knows Best!



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Allah Ou Akbar!


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 3:18pm

I know that True Islam does not advocate the killing of innocent civilians.  I have read the Fatwas, I have been taught by Good Muslims that Islam is a religion of Peace.  Do you disagree?  I follow this passage of the Bible...

Matthew 7:16-20

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

If you advocate violence, as you have been doing on this forum, then we do not want you. 



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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 3:42pm
CAn I join too?

(as an observer for now)

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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Muslima

So now we have a Mormon saying who is a TRUE Muslim, and who is not! 


I trust Whisper, so this is cool for me. I am not participating by the way. If it were not for Whisper.....Anyway, Allah Knows Best!



Maslima the pagen of arabia were impressed by Prophet mohammad's (PBUH) character. Thats why they converted to Islam.

He didnt forced them to become muslim nor he wore a suicide vest (may Allah forgive me 4 speakin like this).

If you really want to impress nonmuslim then educate yourself about true Islam & think how Prophet led his life.

Prophet said the biggest Jihad of all is jihad-e-Nafs
( jihad against one's desire)


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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 3:58pm

AK,

You'll always be welcome.  We might need some of your wit to keep us on our toes.

 



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Posted By: Muslima
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 7:06pm

I do not believe in proselytism. She can convert and chose whichever religion she wants, but she cannot say who is a Muslim and who is not.

I hope she will never become a Muslim. I really do.



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Allah Ou Akbar!


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Muslima

I hope she will never become a Muslim. I really do.



The way you represent Islam on this forum will be the reason. Nothing else. She is still learning about Islam. Give her some time. in the End its up to Allah to decide who will go where & who will become what.


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Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 25 June 2006 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Muslima

I do not believe in proselytism. She can convert and chose whichever religion she wants, but she cannot say who is a Muslim and who is not.

I hope she will never become a Muslim. I really do.

Dear Muslima,Sister Angela is one of our friend who deserves so many beauties,please be polite to her u do not know so much about her...thx....



Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 2:07am

Originally posted by Muslima

I saw the forum and basically this is just a discussion of non-Muslims taking decision for the Muslim world. Why cannot you leave the discussion here? Are there too many Muslims here to take part?

Actually Muslima, I'm glad you brought this up. It's a chance for me to make things absolutely clear. This is place where Muslims, Non-Muslims, in fact anyone who feels they can make a positive contribution are most welcome.

One of the main reasons for moving this discussion has to do with politeness to the people who host/run Islamicity. Although IC is open for anyone to join, I don't think it is fair for us to use the forum for a purpose which may not be entirely in keeping with the policies and aims of Islamicity. Please remember, we are only guests in the Islamicty house. As such, we should respect our hosts.

Another important reason for moving this project elsewhere is to attempt to create a fresh starting point for those prepared to enter into this project with open minds and open hearts. Over the years members here have experienced numerous self-perpetuating debates and arguments. I, like many other long-standing members, have noticed the same old cycle of blame and counter-blame, of insults and counter-insults. Obviously, given the global situation, it is perfectly reasonable to expect things to be this way.

What we are hoping to do in the new location is to create somewhere that can accomodate a wide spectrum of viewpoints in an atmosphere where we can focus on the positive, where we can focus on the things that unite us as human beings and specifically a place to discuss and formulate Angela's Plan. As has been pointed out, there are many obstacles to overcome, perhaps too many, but we have to start somewhere. All of you who think you can offer positive input into this new venture are invited to join us on our journey.

 

Colin

 

PS. Note the link under my signature.  ;-----)



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Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 2:54am

Wonderful to see that this is up and running and in such a short time. I hope that people of all faiths with agree that this is a worthy effort - promoting peaceful solutions is a real evolution in human thought -  and offer to participate in whatever capacity they can, or just cheering us on.  The real challenge is to let people know as well as invite dialogue.  Chances are mistakes will be made, but that's how we learn. Let´s not get too bogged down in "policy" before we make a start.  The details can come later.  I am a semi-professional writer and will have some extra time over the summer (am an educational psychologist), please let me know what I can do to help.  Will switch all further comments over to new forum.  Hope many will join me.....

Let´s keep the Starfish in mind (actually, makes a nice logo come to think of it.)



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 2:56am

Originally posted by ak_m_f

CAn I join too?

(as an observer for now)

sure you can



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 3:10am

Cassandra, I'm in agreement with you, particularly the bit about not getting bogged down in policy. I'm actually a semi-automatic writer as well as being educationally psychotic...although I was never mad about school....get it?

Seriously, it's good to have you on board, I think we're going to need all the help we can get! About the starfish logo...a good idea....can't promise anything, but I'll see what can be done.



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Posted By: Muslima
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 3:57am

Dear Colin,

Thank you for your explanation, it makes sense to me.

All the best!



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Allah Ou Akbar!


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 4:12am
Originally posted by Muslima

Dear Colin,

Thank you for your explanation, it makes sense to me.

All the best!

Muslima, I'm pleased it makes sense to you, but tell me something, do you have someone sitting next to you at your computer?



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Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 4:31am

For those of you who may have missed it, this is the Jimmy Carter Link:

http://www.cartercenter.org - www.cartercenter.org



Posted By: Megatron
Date Posted: 26 June 2006 at 4:51am

Pff..Jimmy Carter...never built me a habitat house.

Just kidding.  Jimmy Carter's a swell guy.



Posted By: StarComm
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by ak_m_f

Originally posted by Muslima

So now we have a Mormon saying who is a TRUE Muslim, and who is not! 


I trust Whisper, so this is cool for me. I am not participating by the way. If it were not for Whisper.....Anyway, Allah Knows Best!



Maslima the pagen of arabia were impressed by Prophet mohammad's (PBUH) character. Thats why they converted to Islam.

He didnt forced them to become muslim nor he wore a suicide vest (may Allah forgive me 4 speakin like this).

If you really want to impress nonmuslim then educate yourself about true Islam & think how Prophet led his life.

Prophet said the biggest Jihad of all is jihad-e-Nafs
( jihad against one's desire)

Jihad annaf does not mean jihad against one's desire



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And that He is Lord of Al shi'ra(The Star Sirius), And That He destroyed The tribe of 'Ad that was first.

[chapter the star verse 49-50]


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 27 June 2006 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by StarComm

Originally posted by ak_m_f

Originally posted by Muslima


So now we have a Mormon saying who is a TRUE Muslim, and who is not! 


I trust Whisper, so this is cool for me. I am not participating by the way. If it were not for Whisper.....Anyway, Allah Knows Best!


Maslima the pagen of arabia were impressed by Prophet mohammad's (PBUH) character. Thats why they converted to Islam. He didnt forced them to become muslim nor he wore a suicide vest (may Allah forgive me 4 speakin like this). If you really want to impress nonmuslim then educate yourself about true Islam & think how Prophet led his life. Prophet said the biggest Jihad of all is jihad-e-Nafs ( jihad against one's desire)


Jihad annaf does not mean jihad against one's desire




Sorry its called :jahada nafsah.


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Posted By: StarComm
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 11:08am
Jihaad-e- annafsa....it does not have the word "against-dhidda" or the word "Desire-baghy/shahwatu" in it, it simply means "striving of the self (nafs-breath also meaning soul)

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And that He is Lord of Al shi'ra(The Star Sirius), And That He destroyed The tribe of 'Ad that was first.

[chapter the star verse 49-50]


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 03 July 2006 at 3:45pm

Been out of the scene for a while. Meditated. Also thought, something terribly terribly hard for a Pathaan.

The Angela Plan will work if just the very few of us nurture it with the intensity of our souls.

He like nothing better than that.

Let's start working now if we really and sincerly care just even for our own selves, if not for the word.

It will work.

We are going to make it work. Period.



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 03 July 2006 at 3:51pm

We've taken the talk to http://p2.forumforfree.com/acrossthepond.html - http://p2.forumforfree.com/acrossthepond.html



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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 03 July 2006 at 4:14pm

Just delighted. One eleven here right now, two and a half hours past my bed time, will check it in the morning and mail you.

I have reasons and, far more important, unreasons, to know that it will work. We happen to hold no alternative.



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 03 July 2006 at 4:24pm

no problem Sasha.  Talk to you wednesday, as much as I know you dislike my Country's current actions.  I am taking tomorrow to celebrate America....the way she should be and to mourn what she's become.  This country was founded on laudable values.  Perhaps it can rejuvenate my energy for the work ahead.

 



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Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 05 July 2006 at 10:37am
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Cassandra
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Posted: 05 July 2006 at 7:16pm | IP Logged http://www.islamicity.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=55891&TPN=1">Quote Cassandra

 

Reply to The Pond Post:  Obstacles.  See Colin's Posts for access to the Pond:

Cogitations from a Cock-Eyed Optimist to our Political Pessimist and Brick Wall Manager, Duende (Mis Saludos Sinceros!):

 

It took me a week to get to it, but I finally got around to turning my full attentions to Duende's posting.  I would like to respond to it here, and I'll post it also on Islamicity under- I don't know, I'll think about it: you'll know) - for reasons I'll explain later.  I've underlined it first in pencil, then in RED.

 

First of all, I would like to thank Duende (who I see is a fellow Spain-dweller, like myself and Whisper) for his very concise and important doubts on Angela's Plan.  There is no doubt that we do need a reality check.  Were all idealists here, and idealism doesn't fit into the current so-called New World Order which has been in place since the aftermath of Desert Storm.  It is true that we need a New and Improved New World Order (Colin/Angela:  How about the "Starfish Initiative", it carries a certain punch - not to take anything away from Angela?  cf Islamicity: The Angela Plan for those of you who missed my little story) , and that can only take place with the undermining of the existing one.  Note: I didn't say "destruction". We may need the bricks.

 

You are all aware of my love for Friedrich Nietzsche, that most misunderstood of "existential" philosophers? Well, in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, old Fred outlined the world order of his day.  If I might:

 

From Of the Three Metamorphoses of the Spirit (I'll edit - but please read the entirety. The capitalizations are mine, but I like Capitalizations! The German in me, I guess. The italics are Nietzsche's; the inevitable comments are mine.)

 

I name you the three Metamorphoses of the Spirit:  how the Spirit became a Camel, the Camel a Lion, and the Lion at last, a Child.

........What is heavy?  thus asks the weight-bearing spirit, and thus kneels down like the Camel, and wants to be well laden (Colin:  Bite your tongue!).....is it this: to debase yourself in order to injure your pride?....or is it this: to feed upon the acorns and grass of knowledge and for the truth to suffer hunger for the soul?.....to wade into dirty water when it is the water of truth, and not to disdain cold frogs and hot toads? (Patty - you might like this bit.)

And so..........the weight bearing Spirit takes upon itself all these heavy things, like a Camel hurrying laden into the desert.

The Camel, that beast of burden, accepts not only the "Status Quo": - that burden laid upon it by its masters, but alternatives, though it knows not how to throw off the yoke of its servitude. Hence it hurries into the desert on its own, but doesn't know what to do once there.

But in the loneliest desert, a second metamorphosis (Mine) takes place.  The spirit becomes a Lion.  It wants to capture freedom, and be sole lord in its own desert. (This is you, Whisper, but read on, for love, for you are indeed a Lion.)

Here it struggles for supremacy with the Great Dragon.

What is the Great Dragon which the Spirit no longer wants to call lord and God?  The great dragon is called "Thou Shalt".  These words are written on every golden scale. But the spirit of the Lion says: "I will!"

The mightiest of Dragons laughs and says: All the values of things glitter on me!

 

My brothers, says Zarathustra, why is the Lion needed in the Spirit?  Why does the beast of burden, that renounces, and is irreverent not suffice?

To create new values......even the Lion is not capable of that: but to create itself freedom for new creation, that the Lion can do......to create freedom for itself and a sacred "No!" even to duty, the Lion is needed for that, my brothers.

To seize the right (my emphasis) to new values - that is the most terrible proceeding for a weight bearing and reverential spirit............Once it loved this "Thou Shalt" as its holiest thing.

But tell me, brothers, what can a child do that a Lion cannot?  Why must the preying Lion still become a Child?

 

(Read carefully and injest:) The Child is innocence and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a sport, a self-propelling wheel, a first motion, a sacred: "Yes!"

...a sacred Yes is needed for the sport of Creation; the Spirit now wields its own will, the spirit now sundered from the world now wins its own world. (Nietzsche's empahsis, not mine.)

 

Sleep is contagious, even through its own thick wall.

 

And today there are still some like the preacher of virtue, and not always so honourable.  But their time is up!  And they shall not stand for much longer: already they are lying down.

Blessed are those drowsy men, for they shall soon drop off.*

 

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

 

These words were written between 1883 and 1885.  Poor old Fred was dying of syphillis, but his mind still saw what the world was becoming.  Caught up in the throws of Thou Shalt.  Only 20 years later, his sister, Elizabeth Förster Nietzsche, a vehement anti-Semite, took his notebooks and TWISTED his words, so that the Nietzsche we read today has to be carefully sifted through Nazi interpretations.  But he was so, so right!!!

 

OK, having made you sit through a favourite passage of mine, I'll address what I can of Duende's wonderful post:

 

This is no longer a conventional world, he says.  "It is a world running on empty and we are all gasping our last breaths before plunging into a great unknown."  Whisper has said the same thing to me:  "The U.S. is a Sunset Power*," he says, with uncanny echoes of Nietzsche.  So how do we hasten this sun's going down?  How do we say Sayonara to what, if it is allowed to continue, will bring about all of our demises, if not the Earth itself?

 

America is not engaged in a conventional war, says Duende.  No indeed.  America is telling all of us that we need this war: against "terrorism".  Who are the true terrorists today? is my question.  I am not, by nature, a political person.  I am certainly a sceptic with several marches and political campaigns to my credit. But, no.  I prefer the Status Quo. I am a Camel., as we all have learned to be. But my heart is that of a Lion and my soul is a Child's.  So where do we go from here?

Let's look some more at Duende's points:

 

"America intends to stay in Iraq, through hell and high water, in order to secure the vast reserves of oil underground.  (What WMD's? My favourite cartoon:  "We know they have them.  We have the receipts!")  In the meantime we are witnessing: "...a slow bleeding to death of American soldiers." (Not so slow, Duende, alas: all their minds are poisoned, and that is death to human dignity itself.) The price for this is continuing "life as you know it for a reasonable time in the future."

 

Actually, I need to put my own agenda into the forefront here, just for a second, if you will permit me:  In the future, and the not too distant future either, wars will be fought over WATER.  But maybe that's another post! (However, just to give you all a new threat to worry about, please access www.nybooks.com/articles/19131) Flannery, Kolbert and Gore. Also read The Party's Over by Richard Heinberg, for a perspective on Oil Domination. We've gotta stop somewhere! I drive a 1200 cc Opel Corsa, and I still feel guilty!

 

Duende says:  We are quietly becoming accustomed to seeing bodies torn apart....this is also part of the plan." Eventually we: "...become so numbed by these images that it ceases to impact us.  Imagine what it does to children in the streets?"  I have to agree wholeheartedly with this.  After the Tsunami, I felt less for the earthquake victims in Pakistan, still less for those more recently in Indonesia.  The human psyche can only take SO MUCH! And these were not man made disasters! What is God saying to us, and why there....? I wish I knew.

 

Anyway, I would counter Duende here, by saying that the world began to be numbed during the television images of the Vietnam War.  We are well beyond immunity at this point.  Schwartzeneggar and Rambo have put us there. We even think we can take on Aliens!  Whatever happened to those sweet extraterrestrials from ET and Close Encounters??? Another conspiracy story....?

 

Anyway, again.....America will:  ".....stop at nothing.  Since this is an unconventional age, the answers must be unconventional," writes Duende.  (For those of you who don't know, in Flamenco, the Duende is the Spirit which arises unbidden in the dance and the song.  I have witnessed it on occasion.  It is SHEER MAGIC!)

 

Yet, Duende warns us:  I believe that no matter how unbearable things appear to us in Iraq, they will only get worse.  I have written in Red Ink in the Margin:  WE CAN'T HAVE THIS!!

 

"I don't know what the answer is to this unconventional war; the world institutions and organizations seem to have tried everything".

 

Duende, I am a philosopher. May God have pity on me. We don't believe much in answers.  But we do believe IN QUESTIONS!

 

He (she?) continues:  We need an entirely new world order, and we have yet to find the person or persons who can suggest a new way forward. I am convinced they are not politicians since the political traditions and patterns are what got us here in the first place............I don't like this feeling of impotence...but we must think in radically different ways and infect others with our thoughts (again my emphasis) if we are to get anything changed."

 

We need, he says: "A people's alliance"  He suggests enlisting Cindy Sheehan. In the last few days I have been researching organizations with the same anger that we have, the same shame, the same determination for change....what we need to do is GALVANISE all of them into a workable whole.  And we need FIGUREHEADS:  "Figures such as Carter, even Clinton and Gore can only add an acceptable or recognisable face to any such movement.  They are politicians after all.  (So, Duende, we don't throw all the political babies out with the proverbial bathwater!  Good for you.) (Incidentally , one of my favourite lines from the movies:  "Of course I voted for Clinton.  All the best Presidents sleep around.")

 

"People are just crying out for it, not just for Iraq and Palestine, but for just about everywhere you can think of, for political, environmental, and humanistic reasons. Politically, because the existing political model is exhausted, and so is the world economic model.  (Aside from Cassie: A good friend of mine, published environmentalist, University of Toronto professor Peter Timmerman once said to me:  "The new world religion is Econotheism.")  Environmentally, everybody knows why (so why do I still bring my shopping home in plastic bags - Cass?), and humanistically, because we have reached a serious spiritual degradation that has left us all bewildered. (Emphasis mine once again.)

 

Here in Spain, 96% of the population were against Spanish troops in Iraq.  Right from the beginning. The Spanish find killing unacceptable.  Y ya está. Following our own "9/11", and the election of Zapatero, those troops were withdrawn.  Thank God.  BUT, it does not follow logically, that, as Whisper has said elsewhere, that percentage was anti-American. They were anti-  a war which had nothing to do with them.  Anti - a war which would have put Spanish casualties on the pages of El Pais and El Mundo.  Anti-  something which has been anathema to the Spanish soul since 1938, and especially since Franco's death.  This county wants NOTHING to do with war. Uncle Zapatero, MIS SALUDOS in plenty!!!

 

Duende continues that Palestine and Afghanistan (a neighbour's husband, currently in the "Security Forces" in Iraq tells me that Afghanistan is "the next hot-spot": they won't allow the depletion of the Opium Trade.  Who "they" are he wouldn't elaborate.) must be included on the agenda for Angela's plan.  I agree wholeheartedly.  But are they so easy to separate from Iraq?  The whole area is an "Oyster" (as Whisper pointed out to me one day - Man, you have made me think, irritating creature that you are!) and Iraq is the strategic Pearl.  I don't think any of us can argue against that.

 

Finally (and my fingers are sore from pounding on this archaic machine I call a computer  - actually his name is Alfonzo III and I am fond of him - he helped me write my book!), Duende says: "No great oaks have yet grown from grass roots movements."  OB-JEC-TION , your Honour:  The Mahatma is turning in his grave.  If ever there was a Childish response to occupation and violence, Gandhi's was it. As I have said elsewhere, I think, Satyagraha was Feminine/yin in its Modus Opperendum, yet it brought down the Raj. The greatest Empire of the day.

 

Lets contact ALL of the grass roots organizations. Let them know we exist.  And, despite our removal from Islamicity I believe that we MUST maintain a visible presence on that site.  Yes, I know Colin, these are well-educated Muslims, with computers and Internet, and they most likely don't represent the general view (Whisper says 95% of Muslims agree with Muslima  - may God forgive me for mentioning her name after my vow ! - , but I don't agree with him.  Or at least if he is right, sign me up for Kortinas Mark III as soon as possible).  Muslims are angry and they have a right to be angry.  I would be angry too.  HELL! I AM angry. But I am a child-converted Lion, and as such I move forward, in play and hope, and if necessary with the sword of a pen I know I can wield.

 

We don't give up, we move forward, until we bring that bloody lower-case dragon down to our knees! Who needs his gold, anyway?

 

Yours in childish Optimism,

Cassandra and her Candle of Hope.

 



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 05 July 2006 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Angela

We've taken the talk to http://p2.forumforfree.com/acrossthepond.html - http://p2.forumforfree.com/acrossthepond.html

Dear Angela,

Let me tell you a story from your ancestors who has been living in Russia from centuries,you know the mountain villages at the higher mountains of Russia that there are some people depends on sheeps having their meats and milks also having their cottons from them for surviving at the higher mountains,u know how hard is life at there.

These people feed big dogs beside their sheeps for protecting them from the wolves but sometimes their dogs betrayals to their owners while the owner of the dogs really care,love these dogs and feeds them very well, we can call them the shepherds,do you know how they betrayal to their owners?...let me tell,the dogs work with the wolves in the middle of the night allowing them to entering to the flock,the dogs do not barks while they come aboard to the sheeps and then they lye down and do not move up their heads till wolves runs into the flock and kills the sheeps for some meat and blood,after the wolves had their meats safely and gone through to their caves, the dogs begin to eat the rest of the meats lying on the ground...

In the morning of the day,the owners of the flock,shepherds wake up and understand what happened at the previous night,then they kill all the dogs with saying this:"kill the dog who eats from your plate and spits on your face".....

Dear Angela,there is a attack from the Pond to the islamicity,please do not move with them,you know how we cared you in the board against some Muslims who threw some words to you and we banned them while they were our Muslim friends and pray 5 times a day,we also protected you to the Evangelist Christians and banned them too,you are our beloved sister who learned so much things from Islamicity and also we learnt so many good things from you too,we appreciate and admire on your name,you have right to move to the Pond,but please do not sell islamicity to the Pond with using their names in the board with an invitation above,u do not know so much about the Pond,your God knows very well...wa salaam.....



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 05 July 2006 at 1:27pm

I am staying at IC, Brother Suleyman.  I sincerely love and respect my friends here.  This particular discussion was moved to The Pond only because the Moderators offered a specific space dedicated to the project.  The Project will also be accessed by the MSN group I created.

http://groups.msn.com/ProjectIraqiHope - http://groups.msn.com/ProjectIraqiHope

I feel that the politics behind IC and AtP are minor in comparison to the Projects hopes.  I do not wish to clogg IC with the Project's ups and downs.  People are not forced to join Across the Ponds other forums...they can strictly stay to the Plan's forums.



-------------


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 5:50am

Finally, I have got the time to breathe.

We must get organised and push Angela's Plan further no matter what anyone thinks or says. I have just finished a meeting with someone closely connected with someone very prominent on the global Muslim stage (a legendary ex-prime minister of possibly th finest country in the Islamic world). He seems to have good aroma about this plan being initiated by people!

Will post a plan of action on the 14th



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Whisper

Finally, I have got the time to breathe.

We must get organised and push Angela's Plan further no matter what anyone thinks or says. I have just finished a meeting with someone closely connected with someone very prominent on the global Muslim stage (a legendary ex-prime minister of possibly th finest country in the Islamic world). He seems to have good aroma about this plan being initiated by people!

Will post a plan of action on the 14th

Bismillah,

We are looking forward to reading it!

Peace



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 7:57am
Originally posted by Whisper

Finally, I have got the time to breathe.

We must get organised and push Angela's Plan further no matter what anyone thinks or says. I have just finished a meeting with someone closely connected with someone very prominent on the global Muslim stage (a legendary ex-prime minister of possibly th finest country in the Islamic world). He seems to have good aroma about this plan being initiated by people!

Will post a plan of action on the 14th

Forgot one thing to say,in The Pond!!!



Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 10:57am

Suleyman, please.  Several people have written to you about why the "Plan" was moved to The Pond.  It has nothing to do with wanting to be exclusive.  Look at this way, I am convinced that had I not meditated on Angela's Plan overnight (which was not then in a thread of its own) and come in the next morning to find that not only had it disappeared from "Active Topics" but hadn't been consulted for almost 24 hours, I wouldn't have had the idea to create a different thread altogether (The Angela Plan), and PM people to please read it and participate.  Luckily they did. It was decided early on that it might be a good idea to create a different forum link completely, but as Angela has said, that would have taken time.  Ergo, Colin graciously stepped in and offered The Pond as a temporary solution.  It seems to have got kind of stuck there, and I think we are all aware that if we move it again, it might get virtually lost altogether.  Kind of like The Zerox Effect. The dialogue over this, and related issues is just too important for this - AND, may I add, for petty "Inter-Forum" squabbles. 

Even there, not as much is being written as I had hoped, I feel we are getting swamped in Pond Weed, and I have to agree with Duende that that is a frustrating feeling.  I am not good at waiting, though I think that Colin is right and that we are gathering passengers for the Bus. Maybe yours is just the voice we need to get us all thinking in new directions. Yours and other Muslims.  Come on, all of you.  I'll pay for the bus tickets - ida y vuelta.  You don't like it, you come back.  I can't offer fairer than that can I?

Personally I am not interested in what has or has not been said which you might have found offensive to you, or, for that matter to your religion which I think by now you and many other Muslims know that I have come to respect enormously.  Your personal concerns are not mine, and I'm sorry but I tell it like it is! What I DO care about is that we encourage dialogue between all persons, and MORE IMPORTANTLY A PLAN OF ACTION, albeit it might be a small one, such as forming an umbrella group as I have suggested, or, let's see what Whisper comes up with.  For my own part, I am delighted to see that he is still as enthusiastic as he was at the beginning (it was in part his support for the Plan which got me thinking) and is considering options for us.

So why don't you just stop bellyaching and join us.......we need ALL voices.  We especially need MUSLIM voices, Suley. Otherwise we become as Muslima said: "A discussion of non-Muslims making decisions for the Muslim world."

I never thought I would agree with the Green One, but on this, she is clearly prophetic....if we allow it.  We don't have to, Suleyman. Listen to Cassandra's prophecies instead.  She doesn't have an ax to grind.

This whole plan is about being "beyond borders": beyond religions, beyond sectarianism:  it's about our Planet and its future. Right now, the horizon seems to be on fire:  is it the sun rising, or setting?  Or is it an oil slick someone set alight to....hmm. Don't think I like that idea.

You do live here, don't you?  You do hope to live to a ripe old age and play with your grandchildren?  No?  I do. The way the world is going, we may have to kiss that option goodbye.  Where will your little comment in red be then? Just because it has always been, doesn't mean it always will be.  Read David Hume. A huge part of becoming a mature and concerned citizen in this rathger scary world we inhabit is learning to think outside the box.  The non-Muslims on this forum already do that....so why can't you?  I promise you:  no-one will try and convert you!  And they'd better not try it on me either.

Think on this one...... for me......for the world, please. I invite you personally.  You can have dual nationality: honestly.

My best regards,  Cassandra

Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he only do a little. Edmund Burke 1729 - 1797



Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 11:32am

Suley, I have a private student....last name Saudi....but I don't think my influence extends that far!

I'll let you have the window seat.  (If you knew me better you would realise what a sacrifice that is!!!)  C



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 1:56pm
Beware all ye sailors, me thinks I hear the Sirens singing.....

-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by Cassandra

Suley, I have a private student....last name Saudi....but I don't think my influence extends that far!

I'll let you have the window seat.  (If you knew me better you would realize what a sacrifice that is!!!)  C

Thank you very much dear Cassandra,i have read all of the writings in both forums here and at the pond,all i can say is the way of my thinking mode is acting rather than discussing, i just love to think with touching before talking on the issues,i first see then touch then live then talk and write,please this does not mean that you have no reality on the issue you started well and will succeed no doubt!,all i want to say is if i will be the part of the plan as an closest member to Iraq,i should visit the area for having the views of the owners of the land for working on a real solution,somethings are so different than we see from our houses and i support your project please do know that...

By that reason from my view of my life and some of my plans delayed till to that time which they are waiting my considerations i can't accept the invitation...

Kind regards....

Also thank you very much for your concern and kindness...

 

Note:i am a real tough nut to crack,you are right.....

 



-------------


Posted By: lovetabuleh
Date Posted: 12 July 2006 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Whisper

Finally, I have got the time to breathe.

We must get organised and push Angela's Plan further no matter what anyone thinks or says. I have just finished a meeting with someone closely connected with someone very prominent on the global Muslim stage (a legendary ex-prime minister of possibly th finest country in the Islamic world). He seems to have good aroma about this plan being initiated by people!

Will post a plan of action on the 14th

 

does anyone else notice the vague implementation of these words??  Someone closely connected...legendary EX-prime minister....of possibly

what is this some sort of game?  What are we kids to think that a bunch of internet savy individuals will supersede the tactics of larger grassroot organizations like Islamic Relief, CAIR, MPAC and others that have spent years involved overseas affairs.  Don't you ppl know the Bush Administration oversees every inch of what goes on in Iraq and what goes on here in America.  

What you cassandra, angela, whisper and others members pro with this good but waaay over your head wacky idea are doing is dangerous to islamicity.    

unknowingly you guys will be asking for attention from the NSA or CIA or even FBI.

 

call me paranoid but hey, i'm a muslim and whatever i say might and will be used against me- remember a lawyer's favorite phrase against Muslim organizations, "they are supporting the terrorists" 

if they got that against you, you AND islamicity are shunted to oblivion.

(unless you are a spy, then you've done your job well)

:)

PEACE



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 12:53am

There is not so much writings on the plan and Whisper goes to legendary ex-PM from a muslim country,brother this comes to me light and interesting and i wish you are not talking about one of my relative in Istanbul...it should be easy for me but i do not think he can help us with these few writings on our hands...more times needed,more works needed unless they will laugh at us with these accumulated workings most of them depends on chat type of writings...so early...do not give up your morals,keep on walking but so early...

Also Sister Amil's points are considerable,but i do not think that there are some spys' inside the board...



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Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 2:21am

Well now, this IS interesting.  A couple of weeks ago I was called an "Evangelical", by the Green One, and now, I might be a "Spy"!  Come to Islamicity and you too can live out the fantasy of your dreams.

("Shunted to Oblivion": sounds like Fun. I love train journeys.)

What planet you on, amalhayati2?  Is that a nebula on your avatar?  That would certainly explain quite a lot to an amateur astonomy buff like me. A nebula, for those of you who don´t know, is what remains after a mid-range HR Diagram star has gone nova.  It's basically just a lot of gas and dust...hot air, I guess you could say.  Pretty, but not very substantial, unless you count potential....and I don´t see a lot of that here.....

From what I understand, various security agencies already do monitor this site.  If they don't, well, I think we'd all be a bit surprised, don't you?  (Hello Boys in Blue! Enjoy your coffee and double chocolate doughnuts, courtesy of IC and me, Cassie the Spy.) I think that the idea that a few people trying to come to grips with the horrors we face in the world today - on another Forum, may I add (wipe your glasses) - is hardly likely to topple Islamicity or be a threat to National Secirity: yours, mine, or anyone else's. Course, I might come by to haunt your dreams.....I'm known to do that. Islamicity survived the Green Posting Machine - no-body came to take her away, or put up those yellow plastic Don´t Cross strips - we had to organise a boycott to rid ourselves of her dangerous poison.  And where were you then, anyway?

What is the world coming to?

As for your snipes first at Whisper, and then at the rest of us trying at least to do something SMALL (see my signature at the bottom of this post, or did you forget to put your specs on LAST TIME?), your contempt is beneath my contempt.  And believe me, you couldn't top my contempt if you were on the ISS.

Most of you know that I try to be a voice of moderation here, but this amalhayati2 person has really got my Goat!

y ya está

Suleyman, thank you so much for your consideration and at least for "checking us out".  Hope you enjoyed your ice cream, and since you removed your earlier post (why? It was sweet) I guess I´ll have to use these Emirates First Class Tickets by myself.  Pity, I was looking forward to your company I'll save you a seat anyway.

P.S.  Tough nuts are always the tastiest once you´ve boiled them down a bit!

P.P.S. I like your little girl. She is what we should be remembering, not our Egos.

Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little.  Edmund Burke 1729 - 1797



Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 3:22am

[QUOTE=ummziba]Beware all ye sailors, me thinks I hear the Sirens singing....    Ah yes, but I have a beautiful print of one of the Sirens in my living room....very erotic.

Where was I? 

Oh, yes: Whisper, when you post your plan you will remember to post it over at The Pond too, won´t you?



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 4:54am
Originally posted by Cassandra

Oh, yes: Whisper, when you post your plan you will remember to post it over at The Pond too, won´t you?

Hi,dear Cassandra,your existence in Islamicity will highly be appreciated,your accumulated experiences will bring us so many light inside the board,please let this request ok,we really want you to stay in the board and please accept it is a brother...

 

Note:we can't come to Pond as a reason also confessed by you that it is more silent than Arizona Valleys...



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Posted By: lovetabuleh
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 6:49am

I'm not labeling anyone as a spy. I wouldn't have the grounds for that. It's a figure of speach. I appoligize if it seems that way. I am concerned about these vague discriptions.

Behaviors like these bring attention and curiosity from national security agencies.  eveyone is attentive to internet spies or undercover agents on the world wide web.

i'd not want to be a continuous member of islamicity discussion forums if questionable behaviors like these persist. 

An advice from me is: you bring this plan to larger trusted professional organizations which are and have been consructing strategies to help our brothers and sisters overseas for years and you'll not only have the funds for your plan but also with it a strog backbone of support.

 

PEACE

 



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 7:44am

Don't be so paranoid.  Freedom of Speech.  This is a Think Tank operation that's goal is in the best interests of all.  Getting young American soldiers out of harms way and out of the way of the Iraqi civilian. 

I'm not afraid of George Bush's Homeland Security.  The Supreme Courts are slowly smacking his fingers and making him play fair with the trials. 

This isn't about him, Saddam or OBL.  This is about Nabiha Nisaif Jassim and her unborn baby, Hashim Ibrahim Awad, Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi and the victims of Haditha.

Its about the Shiites murdered by the sunni insurgents for being "collaborators" with the invaders.  Its about the Sunnis murdered by Shiite death squads.  Its about finding a way for a people oppressed by on dictator after another and bombed over and over to be able to go to the market and not worry about dying.

(BTW, I'm posting a show I want everyone involved to watch on the Discovery Times channel if you have it.  I won't be able to see it unless my professor lets me out early, God Willing.)



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Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 10:57am

[QUOTE=amalhayati2]Behaviors like these bring attention and curiosity from national security agencies.  eveyone is attentive to internet spies or undercover agents on the world wide web.

You point? I have answered this at length above.

i'd not want to be a continuous member of islamicity discussion forums if questionable behaviors like these persist. 

Questionable behaviours?  My friend, all behaviours should be questionable, and questioned....if they are not they become laws. Sometimes very unjust and unfair ones.

An advice from me is: you bring this plan to larger trusted professional organizations which are and have been consructing strategies to help our brothers and sisters overseas for years and you'll not only have the funds for your plan but also with it a strog backbone of support.

And just what have these "professional" (doesn't that mean someone pays them.?...forgive my ignorance) done so far?  We are talking about a(n) umbrella group (I hope) of non-professionable organizations or at the very least a grass roots voice with a new perspective.  We are fledglings, just learning to fly.  Willing to listen, WANTING TO LISTEN. Wanting to learn. You have a problem with this?

PEACE

That would be nice.

Moderators, this is exactly why the decision was taken to move the thread.  I have explained as fully, clearly, and concisely as I can in my message to Suleyman above (who at least had the good grace to check us out first before condemning us).  I only return to Islamicity because I find the discussions enlightening and being a student of light, how can I rfesist.  I have limited my posts to this thread only. And this time only posted because I hoped that our sincere attempts, small as they are, would be investigated y those unsure. We had TRULY, TRULY hoped for Muslim participation. We still do. This has nothing to do with religion or race.  This is about the future of humankind.  There is very little more I can, or will say on this.

 



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 12:22pm

Some useful information can be a good example for your studies on the matter,at least a example from others who has entered on this way before....

Thursday, July 13th, 2006
Week Three, Day Two

By Celeste Zappala, Mother of Sgt Sherwood Baker, KIA 4/26/04 / http://www.mfso.org/article.php?id=655 - Sue Niederer and I carrying large pictures of our lost sons stood with ten other MFSO members today in the hot bright light of the Capitol. The display of empty boots representing soldiers lost since June 15 has grown, and the shoes that stand for the Iraqi loses could never be large enough to convey the tragedy that has befallen Iraq's people.

Our band of family members and MFSO staff Nikki Morse stood throughout the boiling day and engaged tourists and hill staffers. Many gave us thumbs up, thanks and blessings. Some growled about freedom, some challenged our presence and one well dressed older gentlemen who told me he was former military and had "worked over there " insisted that the real solution was to "blow them all up", I told him that was probably not possible and perhaps there was a better solution somehow to the conflicts of the middle east, he nodded.

But perhaps the most disheartening encounters were with those who could not see us, young men and women dressed In full corporate armor on this hot day who walked past us with cell phones in ear -- briefcases and charts in hand -- on their way to lobby the congress. And to them we were obviously invisible. I could not help but think that as they strode those halls of power and wealth, other American young people were extinguishing in the brutal heat of Iraq, caught in the corruption of lies and betrayals that passes for policy in Washington today.

Georgia Stillwell finally received a call from Congressman Dennis Hastert's office granting her an audience tomorrow to talk about her son who is suffering deeply, emotionally after his "tour" in Iraq, and the fate of other veterans who return to empty vows of support. This meeting followed weeks of following "proper channels" with Hastert's office -- finally when Georgia's story appeared on the Michaelmoore.com site, along with the office phone number, the schedulers miraculously found time for Congressman Hastert to meet with the soldier's mother.

Small victories here in front of the Cannon building!

Stacy Bannerman and Sue Niederer brought two pairs of empty boots to the House hearing chaired by Conn. Rep. Christopher Shays -- strangely titled "the Evolving Strategy for Success in Iraq" A report from the GAO Controller Walker reported that the administration has been unwilling to estimate the future costs of the war, now running about 3 billion a week. He was criticized by Republicans for being negative. Rep. Dennis Kucinich passionately stated that US continues to make more enemies everyday. When a Democratic Congressperson asked incredulously how the Administration continues to reward contracts to companies who fail to provides services and are blatantly corrupt, Stacy and Sue were severely admonished for applauding. They did, however, escape arrest. Georgia and Celeste were not permitted into the hearing because they carried the pictures of Sue's son Seth and Celeste's son Sherwood, No dead soldier pictures were permitted in the hearings on success in Iraq.

Back at the boots display on the broiled street, we were honored with the visits of five Congressmen. First Congressional Representative Lewis of Atlanta came to talk with us and offer support, later in the day he brought three more southern Democrats to talk with us, meet family members and exchange thoughts. Gold Star Mom Summer Lipford from North Carolina was particularly grateful to see them. Late in the day Cong. Brian Baird of Washington state came by to tell us our display was powerful. He was glad we were there, but he declined to say he would offer any future votes against the funding of the war.

MFSO members were grateful to be joined by United Methodist pastor Andrew Weaver who arrived from New York to stand with our members and offer support and a compassionate ear to the stories we have to tell. Our witness is the real story. The anxiety that Mona Evans feels as she worries about her son in Iraq, the quiet determination of Gold Star Mom Tia Steele, Stacy's passionate work to ensure her husband's future, Al and Joan's absolute dedication to speaking the truth for their lost son, these are the stories we have to tell in front of the Cannon Building. We ask your prayers, your support, your presence- send the postcards to Congress, let them know you know what "stay the course" really means.

Celeste Zappala
Mother of Sgt Sherwood Baker, KIA 4/26/04
Gold Star Families Speak Out/MFSO



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Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 July 2006 at 12:27pm

Thursday, July 13th, 2006
Mission Accomplished!?

By Georgia Stillwell & Stacy Bannerman / Members of Military Families Speak Out

I wish to thank all the fine people of this nation for http://michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=683 - their calls to Dennis Hastert's office . Thanks to your calls, I had an appointment with Congressman Hastert by noon Tuesday.

I plan on sending in a more lengthy report when I get home, but here are a few details, short form.

Stacy Bannerman and I were whisked from the Cannon House office to the Capitol and met with the Speaker of the House for a half hour.

When Hastert compared Iraq to a football game, I reminded him that kids don't die in football games. I told Hastert the true cost of war was our children; and we don't have one more child to give him.

I showed him a photo of a 20-year-old soldier who was killed in Iraq ( http://michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=679 - Summer Lipford’s son ). He didn't blink.

Stacy told him of the impact of a missing husband in the home. And how the wives take the brunt of a returning soldier’s difficulties. She also discussed how National Guard and Reservists and their families do not get the same resources, support, benefits and services prior to, during and after deployment as active duty soldiers. Stacy spoke of the lies that brought us into this war, the lack of Congressional oversight and accountability, asking the Speaker how congress could have allowed more than a $100 million of taxpayer dollars to "go missing" in Iraq. As she was speaking, Congressman Hastert developed a nervous facial tic. He said to Stacy that, "We want to leave the people of Iraq with something positive, and are working to build a democracy."

Stacy replied, "It's not within the purview of the Armed Forces to build a democracy."

Speaker Hastert interrupted with, "I didn't say anything about building a democracy."

Stacy said, "Sir, yes, sir, you did, just now. And that's not what Congress signed on for, that's not what Congress was told they were paying for. It's certainly not what the American people were told when the war began. For Congress not to have an open, honest debate about this, the way this nation was misled into war, and the other issues I mentioned, is unpatriotic."

I was treated with much respect and got a hug when I left. Speaker Hastert offered to find my son a job. Stacy Bannerman didn't even get a handshake. I believe the Congressman felt much more at ease with a mother than a wife of a soldier. I was discussing the emotional aspect of the war and Stacy was discussing the moral and political failures of congress and the Bush administration.

Once again, thank you and a full report will follow.



-------------


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 7:13am

Cassie, what you said to amalhayati2 below is uncalled for, you have been nothing but sacastic thru out your post.

I am sorry but I have to stand up for her.

Originally posted by Cassandra

As for your snipes first at Whisper, and then at the rest of us trying at least to do something SMALL (see my signature at the bottom of this post, or did you forget to put your specs on LAST TIME?), your contempt is beneath my contempt.  And believe me, you couldn't top my contempt if you were on the ISS.

Most of you know that I try to be a voice of moderation here, but this amalhayati2 person has really got my Goat!

amal, put forth a legimate concern she had and you put her down, I thought you said that disagreements were welcomed that you asked for along with agreements and you put her down, good one   

As I mentioned in good faith at the pond, you need to calm down,



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 7:26am
Originally posted by Cassandra

We are fledglings, just learning to fly.  Willing to listen, WANTING TO LISTEN. Wanting to learn. You have a problem with this?

willing and wanting to listen, then do that for goodness sake, Cassie  



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 10:53am

Angela, et. al.,

There must surely be a place for my disorganized self within your organization? 

Count me in.  The main reason I have not contributed thus far, whether here or at the Pond, is because I do not have regular and reliable Internet access.  Thus, I restrict myself to certain threads, discussions and even boards.  I am interested in this topic, though, and might try, at some point, to participate. 

Best regards,

Serv



Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 11:02am
Originally posted by amalhayati2

Originally posted by Whisper


<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=4>Finally, I have got the time to breathe.


<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=4>We must get organised and push Angela's Plan further no matter what anyone thinks or says. I have just finished a meeting with someone closely connected with someone very prominent on the global Muslim stage (a legendary ex-prime minister of possibly th finest country in the Islamic world). He seems to have good aroma about this plan being initiated by people!


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>Will post a plan of action on the 14th



 


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>does anyone else notice the vague implementation of these words??  Someone closely connected...legendary EX-prime minister....of possibly


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>what is this some sort of game?  What are we kids to think that a bunch of internet savy individuals will supersede the tactics of larger grassroot organizations like Islamic Relief, CAIR, MPAC and others that have spent years involved overseas affairs.  Don't you ppl know the Bush Administration oversees every inch of what goes on in Iraq and what goes on here in America.  


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>What you cassandra, angela, whisper and others members pro with this good but waaay over your head wacky idea are doing is dangerous to islamicity.    


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>unknowingly you guys will be asking for attention from the NSA or CIA or even FBI.


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4> 


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>call me paranoid but hey, i'm a muslim and whatever i say might and will be used against me- remember a lawyer's favorite phrase against Muslim organizations, "they are supporting the terrorists" 


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>if they got that against you, you AND islamicity are shunted to oblivion.


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>(unless you are a spy, then you've done your job well)


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>:)


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>PEACE




THE mEn In BlAcK ArE cOmMiNg ....

RuN 4 uR LiVeS.!!!!!!!!!!!!

-------------


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 11:59am

We need a new name.  I don't feel comfortable with it called the Angela Plan with all these people involved.

A man of great integrity has offered to pay the fee for a domain name on an independent site.  I think the sarcasm was missed on the MSN group name and I know there are concerns about it being at the Pond.  (Though, I thank Colin and his partner for the space to get things started.)

So, Give us suggestions for a new name.  I want it to NOT sound like something Bush would use (hence the sarcasm in Project Iraqi Hope) and I want it to be something that is going to be attractive to the leaders we are trying to target. 

So, what do we want to call this plan????



-------------


Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by amalhayati2

Originally posted by Whisper

Finally, I have got the time to breathe.

We must get organised and push Angela's Plan further no matter what anyone thinks or says. I have just finished a meeting with someone closely connected with someone very prominent on the global Muslim stage (a legendary ex-prime minister of possibly th finest country in the Islamic world). He seems to have good aroma about this plan being initiated by people!

Will post a plan of action on the 14th

 

does anyone else notice the vague implementation of these words??  Someone closely connected...legendary EX-prime minister....of possibly

what is this some sort of game?  What are we kids to think that a bunch of internet savy individuals will supersede the tactics of larger grassroot organizations like Islamic Relief, CAIR, MPAC and others that have spent years involved overseas affairs.  Don't you ppl know the Bush Administration oversees every inch of what goes on in Iraq and what goes on here in America.  

What you cassandra, angela, whisper and others members pro with this good but waaay over your head wacky idea are doing is dangerous to islamicity.    

unknowingly you guys will be asking for attention from the NSA or CIA or even FBI.

 

call me paranoid but hey, i'm a muslim and whatever i say might and will be used against me- remember a lawyer's favorite phrase against Muslim organizations, "they are supporting the terrorists" 

if they got that against you, you AND islamicity are shunted to oblivion.

(unless you are a spy, then you've done your job well)

:)

PEACE

Asalaamu alaikum:

Some quotes on fear:

Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less~~Marie Curie

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." ~~~Franklin D Roosevelt

Fear is the main source of superstition, and one of the main sources of cruelty. To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom. ~~Bertrand Russell

It is fine to fear, I once had the same fears you expressed. But to give into them means you are already defeated, what is the purpose of being A Muslim if you can not attempt to effect change? George W Bush HAS NO influence here.Like it has been quoted before, Each Journey starts with a small first step.



-------------
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 14 July 2006 at 8:09pm

Originally posted by ak_m_f



THE mEn In BlAcK ArE cOmMiNg ....

RuN 4 uR LiVeS.!!!!!!!!!!!!

 



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 15 July 2006 at 4:47am
Originally posted by amalhayati2

Originally posted by Whisper

Whisper wrote:

Finally, I have got the time to breathe.

We must get organised and push Angela's Plan further no matter what anyone thinks or says. I have just finished a meeting with someone closely connected with someone very prominent on the global Muslim stage (a legendary ex-prime minister of possibly th finest country in the Islamic world). He seems to have good aroma about this plan being initiated by people!

Will post a plan of action on the 14th

 

Amalahayati wrote: does anyone else notice the vague implementation of these words??  Someone closely connected...legendary EX-prime minister....of possibly

what is this some sort of game?  What are we kids to think that a bunch of internet savy individuals will supersede the tactics of larger grassroot organizations like Islamic Relief, CAIR, MPAC and others that have spent years involved overseas affairs.  Don't you ppl know the Bush Administration oversees every inch of what goes on in Iraq and what goes on here in America.  

What you cassandra, angela, whisper and others members pro with this good but waaay over your head wacky idea are doing is dangerous to islamicity.    

unknowingly you guys will be asking for attention from the NSA or CIA or even FBI.

 

call me paranoid but hey, i'm a muslim and whatever i say might and will be used against me- remember a lawyer's favorite phrase against Muslim organizations, "they are supporting the terrorists" 

if they got that against you, you AND islamicity are shunted to oblivion.

(unless you are a spy, then you've done your job well)

:)

PEACE

Originally posted by Angel

Angel wrote: Cassie, what you said to amalhayati2 below is uncalled for, you have been nothing but sacastic thru out your post.

I am sorry but I have to stand up for her.

Originally posted by Cassandra

As for your snipes first at Whisper, and then at the rest of us trying at least to do something SMALL (see my signature at the bottom of this post, or did you forget to put your specs on LAST TIME?), your contempt is beneath my contempt.  And believe me, you couldn't top my contempt if you were on the ISS.

Most of you know that I try to be a voice of moderation here, but this amalhayati2 person has really got my Goat!

amal, put forth a legimate concern she had and you put her down, I thought you said that disagreements were welcomed that you asked for along with agreements and you put her down, good one   

As I mentioned in good faith at the pond, you need to calm down,

Angel, no, I am sorry but I do not feel that I owe an apology to anyone unless you count the one that I have just posted to you elsewhere.  The original post by Whisper was written in good faith, Amalhayati's comments were SNIPES.  Her paranoid comments about attracting undue attentions annoyed me, and I wrote what I thought.  Perhaps I could have been a little more subtle about it, but the end result would have been the same.  I did not see Amalhayati disagreeing with anything we have written about the plan.  I saw her taking pot shots at those participating, calling them "spies", insinuating words about "supporting the terrorists", etc., (where is the logic in this, please? We are working for PEACE.  That's the irony of all of this.  How could that possibly threaten Islamicity's existence or reputation) and so on.  I responded perhaps too quickly, but no, other than that I stand by what I said.

If the Moderators request it, I will apologise in a very carefully thought out PM.

I feel that this is developing into a certain tension between you and I, and I would like us to put a stop to it right now, if you don't mind. Please, do not tell me to "calm down".

As I said elsewhere, I would far rather than we remain friends.  Cassandra



Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 17 July 2006 at 5:21am

Suleyman posted: ................Stacy Bannerman and Sue Niederer brought two pairs of empty boots to the House hearing chaired by Conn. Rep. Christopher Shays -- strangely titled "the Evolving Strategy for Success in Iraq" A report from the GAO Controller Walker reported that the administration has been unwilling to estimate the future costs of the war, now running about 3 billion a week. He was criticized by Republicans for being negative. Rep. Dennis Kucinich passionately stated that US continues to make more enemies everyday. When a Democratic Congressperson asked incredulously how the Administration continues to reward contracts to companies who fail to provides services and are blatantly corrupt, Stacy and Sue were severely admonished for applauding. They did, however, escape arrest. Georgia and Celeste were not permitted into the hearing because they carried the pictures of Sue's son Seth and Celeste's son Sherwood, No dead soldier pictures were permitted in the hearings on success in Iraq...............

 

Women who had lost their loved ones in Chile during the Pinochet regime would dance publically with photographs of their husbands, sons, fathers pined to their dresses. No other form of protest was allowed them

on threat of arrest and incarceration.

 

They Dance Alone (Cueca Sola)

 

Why are these women here dancing on their own?

Why is there this sadness in their eyes?

Why are the soldiers here

Their faces fixed like stone?

I can't see what it is that they despise.

They're dancing with the missing,

Dancing with the dead.

They dance with the invisible ones,

Their anguish left unsaid.

They're dancing with their fathers,

Dancing with their sons,

They're dancing with their husbands.

They dance alone.  They dance alone.

 

It's the only form of protest they're allowed.

I've seen their silent faces, they scream so loud.

If they were to speak these words

They'd go missing too.

Another woman in the torture table.

What else can they do?

 

One day we'll dance on their graves.

One day we'll sing our freedom.

One day we'll laugh in our joy.

And we'll dance.

 

Spoken:

Ellas dansan por los desaparecidos

Dansan por sus muertos

Dansan por sus amores invisibles

Dansan con silencio angusto

Dansan con sus padres

Dansan por sus esposos

Ellas dansan solas

Dansan solas

 

Hey Mr. Pinochet:

You've sown a bitter crop.

It's foreign money that supports you.

One day the money's going to stop.

No wages for your torturers.

No budget for your guns.

Can you think of your own mother,

Dancing with her invisible son?

 

They're dancing with the missing,

Dancing with the dead,

They dance with the invisible ones,

They're anger left unsaid.

Dancing with their fathers,

Dancing with their sons,

Dancing with their husbands.

They dance alone.  They dance alone.

 

From:  Nothing Like the Sun, Sting, 1987

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 17 July 2006 at 12:09pm


-------------


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 21 July 2006 at 11:48pm
Did this plan go on the wayside somewhere in Lebanon? 

-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 23 July 2006 at 8:46am

I think that may very well be the case, Signreader, and it saddens me.  None of us can afford to regionalise our shock and dismay at what is happening in the world today.  This is clearly part of a preconceived plan to take over control the entire Middle East. I have suggested that we form an umbrella group, gather information about, and contact other grass roots groups, but so far the response has been disappointing. We are all very good at talk, not so good at action. But nothing else but people power will ever change this dominated planet.  Is this the beginning of the end, or the end of the beginning.  That's the problem, isn't it?  We just don't know what part of history we inhabit. 

In the meantime, my heart goes out to the whole Middle East.  For that reason, I am posting a petition under "A Plea for Lebanese Civilians" in Current events.  It came from Canada. Please anyone who reads it, consider and sign.  I know, we all know, that these things don't do an awful lot of good.  But doing nothing achieves nothing.  Which is better?



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 1:53pm

Brother, the plan did not go wayside or anything, anywhere. In fact, Lebanon lends it all the urgence it requires.

I have the promised proposal in hand, but it was difficult to find some place with more than 9.6 kbps I could muster through this journey. I will post hopefully by Tuesday.

It will stay Angela's Plan for her honest and sincere initiative. Plus, we don't require any unnecessary insignificant diversions.



Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 8:43am
I will be posting this on the forum set up at Across The Pond as I feel
that may turn out to be the natural home for Angela's Plan, since it is
both British and American troops who must withdraw. But I want to
have some feedback here aswell.

I’ve been reading posts on other forums with nothing to do with
politics (Peakoil.com) where Americans are talking a lot about the
Israeli bombings of Lebanon. I’ve read comments posted by readers
on news and information sites commenting on articles about Israel’s
use of white phosphor, cluster bombs, targeting civilians etc. I have
been shocked at the level of bloodlust some people show, who are
confident in their assertions that force and war is the only answer.

But most of all I have been struck by the ease with which we all judge
and justify our own and other’s remarks and beliefs. It seems to me
that so long as we justify our disagreement with someone/something
with judgements such as: “that’s what I’d expect from a lefty/
commie peacenik coward”, or such as these: “she’s just a left-wing
feminist”; “he’s a Moslem radical”; “he’s a rabid liberal” etc. there will
be no progress towards settlement, there will be no negotiation. The
first obstacle is oneself. We do not need to put people into boxes in
order to understand what they are saying. The comment: “I see
where you’re coming from” means: “Ah, I see you are a liberal/
communist/ atheist/ orthodox Jew etc. The idea that someone has
“an agenda” buys into the same rigid and limited concept that we are
all just defending our political or religious viewpoints, rather than
defending our deeply held need to live in peace, and without the
threat of war.

When the Angela Plan was first mooted as a ‘movement’ I saw
nothing but difficulties and obstacles, and saw no future for any such
initiative. The war in Iraq has become such a Behemoth of a problem,
involving corporate plundering, the violence we all know about, and
the undeclared civil/internecine war, that I saw only complicated and
insurmountable problems. Now I have actually narrowed my focus
and this is what I think we can do: rather than found a new
organisation, we should try to bring existing organisations together
under one common cause: American withdrawal. This needs to be
done in America, as international viewpoints are barely taken into
consideration by the xenophobic G.W. Bush admin. I feel The Pond
may be the natural home for this initiative since it is both America
and Britain who must withdraw, hence it is the American and British
public who must form the critical mass of opposition to the American
led occupation.

There are many grass-roots organisations working for peace and
campaigning to bring the troops home, the American public (or so
we are told) are increasingly turning against the occupation, Bush
has the lowest ratings of any president before him and his party are
desperate to maintain their powerbases at home. Experience shows
that only when opposition at home reaches a critical mass (Vietnam)
does the administration start thinking about doing what the people
actually want. Reaching that critical mass MUST NOT take as long as
it did to end the Vietnam war. It must be reached soon, and I think
one way is to draw the various groups who currently don’t have a
link with one another together: strength in numbers.

For this, I suggest we form the umbrella pressure group which will
put these organisations together with the sole aim of becoming such
a loud noise that the government will have to sit up and listen. We
want the troops out of Iraq.

I also want the Israeli’s and Palestinians to get back to a negotiating
table, and I want all foreign troops out of Afghanistan. These don’t
necessarily have to be separate issues. With a working pressure
group dedicated to bringing all non-violent activists with a common-
ground together, we could also turn our attention to these problems.

Maybe this is a lazy way out? I mean, I’m sort of taking advantage of
all the work done by those who have formed and who run the various
pressure groups which already exist. But I just feel it would be a
waste of hard work to set up yet another non-governmental peace
organisation, and the time it would take to get it up and running is
time Iraq doesn’t have.

I know there are groups out there which are founded by Christians
and Moslems, groups affiliated with political parties or charities
owned and run by churches. I feel the organisation which brings
them together should be officially neutral, without political or
religious affiliations although members will of course come from all
sorts of backgrounds.

This is something like the negotiating table differing parties are
forced to sit down at during any labour strike. It would be a little bit
like the moderators sitting back and encouraging negotiation and
communication between the employers and the employees.

It’s not a big idea, it doesn’t involve lobbying for support from
politicians or corporations. But please let me know what you think,
and add suggestions. I have no need to listen to more rhetoric about
why America should not withdraw now, or any other argument in
favour of arms, or war. I’ve read enough and seen enough.


Posted By: Hanan
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 10:08am
I wholeheartedly agree with you!

-------------


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 02 August 2006 at 4:58am

Originally posted by Duende

I will be posting this on the forum set up at Across The Pond as I feel
that may turn out to be the natural home for Angela's Plan, since it is
both British and American troops who must withdraw. But I want to
have some feedback here aswell.

I’ve been reading posts on other forums with nothing to do with
politics (Peakoil.com) where Americans are talking a lot about the
Israeli bombings of Lebanon. I’ve read comments posted by readers
on news and information sites commenting on articles about Israel’s
use of white phosphor, cluster bombs, targeting civilians etc. I have
been shocked at the level of bloodlust some people show, who are
confident in their assertions that force and war is the only answer.

But most of all I have been struck by the ease with which we all judge
and justify our own and other’s remarks and beliefs. It seems to me
that so long as we justify our disagreement with someone/something
with judgements such as: “that’s what I’d expect from a lefty/
commie peacenik coward”, or such as these: “she’s just a left-wing
feminist”; “he’s a Moslem radical”; “he’s a rabid liberal” etc. there will
be no progress towards settlement, there will be no negotiation. The
first obstacle is oneself. We do not need to put people into boxes in
order to understand what they are saying. The comment: “I see
where you’re coming from” means: “Ah, I see you are a liberal/
communist/ atheist/ orthodox Jew etc. The idea that someone has
“an agenda” buys into the same rigid and limited concept that we are
all just defending our political or religious viewpoints, rather than
defending our deeply held need to live in peace, and without the
threat of war.

When the Angela Plan was first mooted as a ‘movement’ I saw
nothing but difficulties and obstacles, and saw no future for any such
initiative. The war in Iraq has become such a Behemoth of a problem,
involving corporate plundering, the violence we all know about, and
the undeclared civil/internecine war, that I saw only complicated and
insurmountable problems. Now I have actually narrowed my focus
and this is what I think we can do: rather than found a new
organisation, we should try to bring existing organisations together
under one common cause: American withdrawal. This needs to be
done in America, as international viewpoints are barely taken into
consideration by the xenophobic G.W. Bush admin. I feel The Pond
may be the natural home for this initiative since it is both America
and Britain who must withdraw, hence it is the American and British
public who must form the critical mass of opposition to the American
led occupation.

There are many grass-roots organisations working for peace and
campaigning to bring the troops home, the American public (or so
we are told) are increasingly turning against the occupation, Bush
has the lowest ratings of any president before him and his party are
desperate to maintain their powerbases at home. Experience shows
that only when opposition at home reaches a critical mass (Vietnam)
does the administration start thinking about doing what the people
actually want. Reaching that critical mass MUST NOT take as long as
it did to end the Vietnam war. It must be reached soon, and I think
one way is to draw the various groups who currently don’t have a
link with one another together: strength in numbers.

For this, I suggest we form the umbrella pressure group which will
put these organisations together with the sole aim of becoming such
a loud noise that the government will have to sit up and listen. We
want the troops out of Iraq.

I also want the Israeli’s and Palestinians to get back to a negotiating
table, and I want all foreign troops out of Afghanistan. These don’t
necessarily have to be separate issues. With a working pressure
group dedicated to bringing all non-violent activists with a common-
ground together, we could also turn our attention to these problems.

Maybe this is a lazy way out? I mean, I’m sort of taking advantage of
all the work done by those who have formed and who run the various
pressure groups which already exist. But I just feel it would be a
waste of hard work to set up yet another non-governmental peace
organisation, and the time it would take to get it up and running is
time Iraq doesn’t have.

I know there are groups out there which are founded by Christians
and Moslems, groups affiliated with political parties or charities
owned and run by churches. I feel the organisation which brings
them together should be officially neutral, without political or
religious affiliations although members will of course come from all
sorts of backgrounds.

This is something like the negotiating table differing parties are
forced to sit down at during any labour strike. It would be a little bit
like the moderators sitting back and encouraging negotiation and
communication between the employers and the employees.

It’s not a big idea, it doesn’t involve lobbying for support from
politicians or corporations. But please let me know what you think,
and add suggestions. I have no need to listen to more rhetoric about
why America should not withdraw now, or any other argument in
favour of arms, or war. I’ve read enough and seen enough.

Bismillah,

Duende, I read this and searched for it so that I could reply to the text you wrote that I have bolded above.

I agree with this and believe it is the most important thing we can work on together here at IC and everywhere else.  That is, next to stopping the devastation of the world by American-backed bombings.

Why call each other names anyway?  People change.  That's what the forgiveness of Allah, SWT, is about.  Allah, The All-Knowing, knows human nature and has decreed that His Mercy is greater Than His Wrath.  Why do we humans have to switch this around?  Looking at the world today, the powers-that-be exercise no self-control and seek disproportionate revenge, and we the citizens of the world, are modeling this in our daily interpersonal interactions.  AstagfirAllah.

Salaamu Alaykum



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 02 August 2006 at 8:03am

I have said for a while now that I think we need to form an umbrella group.  But everytime I do so I have been told to calm down and chill and wait for the bus.  Sorry, the bus passed us while we were waiting and asleep.  It swept by with such a speed that we didn't even  recognise its passing.

I suggest:  contact all related grassroots peace groups and suggested a centralised lobby: Angela's Plan may not be a separate voice in and of itself, but maybe our task is to galvanise the separate groups into one WHOLE VOICE.  It is a Herculean task, but broken down, a realisable one.  Remember the Starfish:  save one at a time.  We form a chain along the beach with one objective.

We cannot afford to wait.  The clock is ticking a good deal faster than any of us realise, folks.  I give it 10 years at the most.



Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 02 August 2006 at 9:16am
"I have said for a while now that I think we need to form an umbrella
group.  But everytime I do so I have been told to calm down and chill
and wait for the bus.  Sorry, the bus passed us while we were waiting
and asleep.  It swept by with such a speed that we didn't even 
recognise its passing."

Cassandra, I understand, and you're absolutely right! I also want to
make sure you don't feel I am 'stealing' your suggestion and posting
it as My Big Idea. I hate playground politics and as adults I don't
think it's at all constructive to fall back on them, as tempting as it is.

If we were really retentive we'd be pasting and claiming: "I said it
first! No! I said it first!" And then we could all reach for our Lugers or
AK47

So, a suggestion: each of us takes time to research peace orgs and
find out what they are standing for and whether they appear to be
good targets. How does that sound? We need to put a deadline on it,
otherwise we'll just be sitting on the bus waiting for the driver
(GROAN)

Please get back to me as the more people do this, the quicker we'll
get a start.


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 9:11am

I think this excerpt from the at times embattled but always articulate Arundhati Roy might be interesting to some of us here.  In this speech, she addresses “public power in the age of Empire” and provides background concerning the “World Social Forum.”  One can take issue with any number of her points, but, to me, her powers of perception are inordinately acute.        

____________________________

“I'm going to speak about three of the contemporary dangers that confront [non-violent] resistance movements: the difficult meeting point between mass movements and the mass media, the hazards of the NGO-ization of resistance, and the confrontation between resistance movements and increasingly repressive states.

The place in which the mass media meets mass movements is a complicated one.

Governments have learned that a crisis-driven media cannot afford to hang about in the same place for too long. Like business houses need a cash turnover, the media need crises turnover. Whole countries become old news. They cease to exist, and the darkness becomes deeper than before the light was briefly shone on them. We saw it happen in Afghanistan when the Soviets withdrew. And now, after Operation Enduring Freedom put the CIA's Hamid Karzai in place, Afghanistan has been thrown to its warlords once more.

Another CIA operative, Iyad Allawi, has been installed in Iraq, so perhaps it's time for the media to move on from there, too.

While governments hone the art of waiting out crisis, resistance movements are increasingly being ensnared in a vortex of crisis production, seeking to find ways of manufacturing them in easily consumable, spectator-friendly formats.

Every self-respecting peoples' movement, every "issue" is expected to have its own hot air balloon in the sky advertising its brand and purpose.

For this reason, starvation deaths are more effective advertisements for impoverishment than millions of malnourished people, who don't quite make the cut. Dams are not newsworthy until the devastation they wreak makes good television. (And by then, it's too late).

Standing in the rising water of a reservoir for days on end, watching your home and belongings float away to protest against a big dam used to be an effective strategy, but isn't any more. The media is dead bored of that one. So the hundreds of thousands of people being displaced by dams are expected to either conjure new tricks or give up the struggle.

Colorful demonstrations and weekend marches are vital but alone are not powerful enough to stop wars. Wars will be stopped only when soldiers refuse to fight, when workers refuse to load weapons onto ships and aircrafts, when people boycott the economic outposts of Empire that are strung across the globe.

If we want to reclaim the space for civil disobedience, we will have to liberate ourselves from the tyranny of crisis reportage and its fear of the mundane. We have to use our experience, our imagination, and our art to interrogate the instruments of that state that ensure that "normality" remains what it is: cruel, unjust, unacceptable. We have to expose the policies and processes that make ordinary things - food, water, shelter and dignity - such a distant dream for ordinary people. Real pre-emptive strike is to understand that wars are the end result of flawed and unjust peace.

As far as mass resistance movements are concerned, the fact is that no amount of media coverage can make up for mass strength on the ground. There is no option, really, to old-fashioned, back-breaking political mobilization.”

Ref:  http://www.democracynow.org/static/Arundhati_Trans.shtml



Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 11:33am
Thank you Serv, I admire Arundhati Roy for her activism, and
itellect. If we could mobilise the millions of Muslims in India, we
would have greatly added to our chances of moving politics

This is particularly relevant and from what I can see, a HUGE problem
in the US:

"If we want to reclaim the space for civil disobedience, we will have to
liberate ourselves from the tyranny of crisis reportage and its fear of
the mundane. We have to use our experience, our imagination, and
our art to interrogate the instruments of that state that ensure that
"normality" remains what it is: cruel, unjust, unacceptable. We have to
expose the policies and processes that make ordinary things - food,
water, shelter and dignity - such a distant dream for ordinary people.
Real pre-emptive strike is to understand that wars are the end result
of flawed and unjust peace."

Perhaps an answer is to get the alternative, independent media on our
side and acting as our mouthpiece. Alternet recently declared their
editorial line would be refocussing on Iraq and on bringing the real
story to the forefront. But then again, we have reached that all too
common tipping point of emotional/charity overload, more grisly
news from Iraq is just old news. Nobody has the stomach to read it
any more. And as with Afghanistan, the media have dropped it and
moved on to the next big thing.

Here in Spain, Castro's imminent death (I want to borrow from Garcia
Marquez and call it 'una muerte anunciada') has shoved Lebanon onto
page 7.

If I were in the States, I would be out pounding the streets and
sending letters to congress etc. but from here in Southern Spain, my
best option is to be a cyber activist.


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 12:02pm

Cass said: I have said for a while now that I think we need to form an umbrella
group.  But everytime I do so I have been told to calm down and chill
and wait for the bus.  Sorry, the bus passed us while we were waiting and asleep.  It swept by with such a speed that we didn't even 
recognise its passing."

Duende countered: Cassandra, I understand, and you're absolutely right! I also want to make sure you don't feel I am 'stealing' your suggestion and posting it as My Big Idea. I hate playground politics and as adults I don't think it's at all constructive to fall back on them, as tempting as it is.

If we were really retentive we'd be pasting and claiming: "I said it
first! No! I said it first!" And then we could all reach for our Lugers or
AK47

So, a suggestion: each of us takes time to research peace orgs and
find out what they are standing for and whether they appear to be
good targets. How does that sound? We need to put a deadline on it,
otherwise we'll just be sitting on the bus waiting for the driver
(GROAN)

Please get back to me as the more people do this, the quicker we'll
get a start.[/QUOTE]

Hey Girl, absolutely no competition intended nor implied.  It doesn't matter who says what or when.  All that metters is what we do about it.  July was perfect for me to really get actively involved.  August is called "making a living" and I don't have internet access at home. BUT, I suggest we divvy up the alphabet of grass roots organizations and contact them with our ideas.  Make some suggestions, send them to Maryah, Colin, Whisper, Colin, Herjihad, Servetus, Suleyman, Patty, Angel, Daniel........anyone who wants to get involved, and we must now: the time for talking has passed. Lebanon hjas made it so. The problem is, to my way of thinking: what is/are our ideas.? Angela came up with her plan and it is certainly a start, but with Afghanistan and Lebanon added to the equation (and they must be), we have to re-think our intentions.  What is our operation agenda?  Are we yet solid enough in our plans to contact other, much more experienced agencies than ourselves with our ideas of an umbrella group? You know how egos get in the way of these things, verdad?  I would be more than happy to hand that responsibility over to another group willing to "shelter" other groups, but make them a power to be reckoned with.  If no-one else can do it, well then, we do it ourselves.  I have suggested splitting the alp[habet: I'll happily take, say a - e.  But we need something solid, something we all agree upon when we contact these groups. 

What is, as I think either Colin or Whisper said early on, our Mission statement?

Also posted on The Pond.



Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 4:57pm

“I admire Arundhati Roy for her activism, and intellect.”

 

So do I, Duende.  When I posted the excerpt, I almost commented upon her apparent ability to balance both heart and head.

 

“If I were in the States, I would be out pounding the streets …”

 

All that got me was (were?) a couple of bloody fists.

 

“… and sending letters to congress etc.”

 

Congress already has letters.  On one buttock, they have “AIPAC” branded with a hot iron; on the other, “military-industrial complex;” and they have '666' tatooed on their collective forehead.      

 

“… but from here in Southern Spain, my best option is to be a cyber activist.”

 

I understand.  I have been to Portugal more recently than to Spain.  I was thinking today, over lunch, of Ernest Hemmingway and others who, in their day, went off to Spain to write of foreign (but somehow personal) wars ...

 

 

Serv   



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Servetus


“… and sending letters to congress etc.”

 

Congress already has letters.  On one buttock, they have “AIPAC” branded with a hot iron; on the other, “military-industrial complex;” and they have '666' tatooed on their collective forehead.      

 

Serv   

LOL
LOL


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 04 August 2006 at 5:00am
Servetus said:

"I understand.  I have been to Portugal more recently than to Spain.  I
was thinking today, over lunch, of Ernest Hemmingway and others
who, in their day, went off to Spain to write of foreign (but somehow
personal) wars ..."

I'm not sure what you understand, what do you mean?

Do you mean we are as likely to be succesfull as the foreign fighters
who joined the Spanish civil war?

In fact, I really don't know what you're saying in this post.

Could it just be you think any initiative is a waste of time, or bound
to fail? Please, just say so. Over on The Pond Patty has also made
comments which add absolutely nothing to the idea of an umbrella
pressure group. Angel has also written that she feels Cassandra and I
are not willing to listen to their comments. That's because we've had
enough of comments which only seem to poke holes (which we
already know are there) in this idea.

I don't see any point in discussing what we all know: i.e the strength
of AIPAC, the dead drudge of writing letters to representatives, the
power of military/corporate greed etc. etc.

We just want to pressurise as many NGOs and peace orgs into
uniting their voices/actions and raise a 'critical mass'. If we have to,
we'll do it wihout anybody else's help, but it would be nice to have a
few people ancourage the idea, even if they are too disheartened to
actually do anything concrete


 


 


Serv  


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 04 August 2006 at 9:53am

Thanks, Sign Reader.  I missed your post wherein you mentioned MIC, but I have been rather highly attuned to the concept from the time that I first learned about President Eisenhower's (largely unheeded) warning to the nation.  It might interest you to know that many of us Americans are in fact quite aware of the issue and that there is a recently published and excellent book on the topic, written by an American academician (Boston University) and military man (West Point, Viet-Nam), Dr. Andrew Bacevich.  I have read it and strongly encourage others to do so.  It puts responsibility for much of the mess we (as a nation) are in right where it belongs: not on AIPAC, not on George W. Bush (although he is in a sense complicit), but squarely upon the laps of the American people themselves, which includes me.  Find reviews of the book here:  

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195173384/002-3225494-0916830?v=glance&n=283155 - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195173384/002-3225494-0916 830?v=glance&n=283155

_________________________________

Duende,

You are quoted below.

… but from here in Southern Spain, my best option is to be a cyber activist.

To that, I said "I understand."  I mean I understand about cyber activism being your best option.  Sometimes it is also mine.  I hope that you keep exercising that option because I like your posts and your activism!

Do you mean we are as likely to be succesfull as the foreign fighters who joined the Spanish civil war?

No.  I was really just thinking of Hemmingway and of his times and was drawing an admittedly indistinct parallel between that time and ours.  There was no particular point to the statement. 
 

Could it just be you think any initiative is a waste of time, or bound to fail? Please, just say so

No, I think neither.  I apologize if I have seemed overly pessimistic.

Over on The Pond Patty has also made comments which add absolutely nothing to the idea of an umbrella pressure group. Angel has also written that she feels Cassandra and I are not willing to listen to their comments. That's because we've had enough of comments which only seem to poke holes (which we already know are there) in this idea.

I, for my part, made an attempt to add something to the idea of an umbrella pressure group by quoting excerpts from the great umbrellist Arundhati Roy and by introducing, among other possible groups, her World Social Forum as one of possibly many reference points.  As for my jokes about the US Congress and the effectiveness of letter-writing, there is (as I see it) truth behind my humor and hyperbole. 

I don't see any point in discussing what we all know: i.e the strength of AIPAC, the dead drudge of writing letters to representatives, the power of military/corporate greed etc. etc.

Ok.  Agreed.  Let's not discuss it (at least not here).  I was just responding, perhaps with too much levity, and was trying to express my sense of frustration at being unable to actually effect change from my side, here in the States.  It is true that I don't have much confidence in the existing and institutional mechanisms for change such as the deliberative bodies (UN) and various parliaments, but that's another topic.
 

We just want to pressurise as many NGOs and peace orgs into uniting their voices/actions and raise a 'critical mass'. If we have to, we'll do it wihout anybody else's help, but it would be nice to have a few people encourage the idea, even if they are too disheartened to actually do anything concrete.

In that case, please consider yourself encouraged and know that I am not too disheartened to do anything concrete (provided it's legal).  Unfortunately for my poor self, my 30 minutes at this public library Internet terminal are about to expire.  I'll talk to you later.

Serv



Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 04 August 2006 at 1:19pm
Servetus, okay, thank you, now I too understand.

I like the image you conjured for me of Arundhati Roy holding a big
umbrella. In fact, I think you just invented a word: umbrellist. Nice
one!

And just for your record, I agree absolutely with your frustration with
the UN and others. My personal thought is that all post WWII
institutions have reached decadence and outrun their natural lives/
usefullness. The world has changed too much geopolitically, and
they have not kept up.

It's largely because of this that I criticized Angela's plan in the first
place. But also because we don't yet have a suitable substitute that I
feel the UN should at least sputter on, maybe there's a chance for
improvement ...



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 04 August 2006 at 2:22pm

“If I were in the States, I would be out pounding the streets …”

 

All that got me was (were?) a couple of bloody fists.

Brother, I know, these obese dollar loving flag worshipping poor Americans. If they could think even for 33 seconds one day the world won't be such killing fileds.

Or is it that the poor duffers are just ruled and controlled by AIPAC and not by the congress?

Anyway, poor people like these don't survive for very long. We don't need to quote anything from history as they think it just started on September 11.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 05 August 2006 at 1:19pm

My apologies for dragging 14th July to this day. I was in very low reception spots for a whole while. It was almost like hitting the jackpot if we could get 9.6 kbps for a whole 7 minutes.

I had some strong unreasons to know that Angela’s Plan will work from the day she presented it. We have gone a whole circle trying to list reasons why it shouldn’t work. But, thanks to the US and her sidekicks, today, the possibility of thorough global backing for this plan stands a good hundred fold stronger than when it was conceived.

 

We all know, militarism works only because it functions Full Time.

Corporate interests sponsor our death and destruction and promote it through their “free” media.

 

Peace has been conducted, mostly, as a hobby or, a best, in part time space.

Angela’s Plan will work if we structure a full time executive body, linked with full time bureaux in the US and other parts of the world.

 

I had discussions with one of Mahatir Mohammed’s reps while I was visiting Karachi a few weeks ago. He is keen to invest his time and energy at the global level since he has become free from his 22 years run as Prime Minister of Malaysia.

 

I was urged to visit Malaysia for meeting him, but I chose to keep this offer on hold till we were a properly constituted group.

 

I have had feed back from friends in Africa and the US.

It seems that Nelson Mandela and Jimmy Carter, both, will be interested in Peoples’ cause.

 

I feel the Spanish government will support and even host any move at this level.

 

Writers, poets, actors and a whole range of thinking feeling people, in the sub-continent and the Mid East, are waiting for any such initiative. We could muster almost 15th Feb 2003 like support in the prevalent climate.

 

I suggest we constitute a Foundation and register it in some neutral country.

Each one of us should subscribe to it

        underwriting whatever time and financial support we can afford

        As its Founder Members.

 

Each Member will be issued a Global Peace Passport.

We will work as Peace Ambassadors San Frontieres

 

Each one of will train and groom 9 Peace Affiliates
        with a straight philosophy
        and an even simpler script

(just a One-Day programme)

 

Affiliate is assigned to an Affinity

Co-ordinates his Street.

 

An Affiliate trains 9 Affiliates - is promoted as Cadet

- placed with a Company – responsible for his Area

 

Cadet is promoted Guide in due process

- placed with a Group – controls his District.

Guide is trained for:

        Group co-ordination and admin

        Promoted Citizen with proper endorsements.

 

Citizen reports to the Council              -              with Zone responsibility.

This is a Full Time position.

 

Grows as Chieftain              - belongs to the Chamber

-         Province responsibility

 

Baron  - sits on the board – Executes National level of functions.

 

Elders  - Form the Elite – Policy and Planning level.

 

Nobles – form the Nucleus – Appeals & Strategy control

 

This structure ensures our Affiliates scope of growth and makes a Full Time organisation possible.

 

We will work in our locations with agreed aims and objectives.

We will win. The time could never be more right.



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 05 August 2006 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Whisper

My apologies for dragging 14th July to this day. I was in very low reception spots for a whole while. It was almost like hitting the jackpot if we could get 9.6 kbps for a whole 7 minutes.

I had some strong unreasons to know that Angela’s Plan will work from the day she presented it. We have gone a whole circle trying to list reasons why it shouldn’t work. But, thanks to the US and her sidekicks, today, the possibility of thorough global backing for this plan stands a good hundred fold stronger than when it was conceived.

We all know, militarism works only because it functions Full Time.

Corporate interests sponsor our death and destruction and promote it through their “free” media.

Peace has been conducted, mostly, as a hobby or, a best, in part time space.

Angela’s Plan will work if we structure a full time executive body, linked with full time bureaux in the US and other parts of the world.

I had discussions with one of Mahatir Mohammed’s reps while I was visiting Karachi a few weeks ago. He is keen to invest his time and energy at the global level since he has become free from his 22 years run as Prime Minister of Malaysia.

I was urged to visit Malaysia for meeting him, but I chose to keep this offer on hold till we were a properly constituted group.

I have had feed back from friends in Africa and the US.

It seems that Nelson Mandela and Jimmy Carter, both, will be interested in Peoples’ cause.

I feel the Spanish government will support and even host any move at this level.

Writers, poets, actors and a whole range of thinking feeling people, in the sub-continent and the Mid East, are waiting for any such initiative. We could muster almost 15th Feb 2003 like support in the prevalent climate.

I suggest we constitute a Foundation and register it in some neutral country.

Each one of us should subscribe to it

        underwriting whatever time and financial support we can afford

        As its Founder Members.

Each Member will be issued a Global Peace Passport.

We will work as Peace Ambassadors San Frontieres

Each one of will train and groom 9 Peace Affiliates
        with a straight philosophy
        and an even simpler script

(just a One-Day programme)

Affiliate is assigned to an Affinity

Co-ordinates his Street.

An Affiliate trains 9 Affiliates - is promoted as Cadet

- placed with a Company – responsible for his Area

Cadet is promoted Guide in due process

- placed with a Group – controls his District.

Guide is trained for:

        Group co-ordination and admin

        Promoted Citizen with proper endorsements.

Citizen reports to the Council              -              with Zone responsibility.

This is a Full Time position.

Grows as Chieftain              - belongs to the Chamber

-         Province responsibility

Baron  - sits on the board – Executes National level of functions.

Elders  - Form the Elite – Policy and Planning level.

Nobles – form the Nucleus – Appeals & Strategy control

 

This structure ensures our Affiliates scope of growth and makes a Full Time organisation possible.

We will work in our locations with agreed aims and objectives.

We will win. The time could never be more right.

Bismillah,

Salaams Pid'rem,

Strong unreasons?

Baroness maybe?  I have to tell you that I never wanted to be a princess, baroness or a noble.  Affiliate sounds cool.  Team member.  Council member. 

I created a little club at college and murdered the standing regime-like names.  It was fun.  We had no president or vice-president et cetera.  Just team members with different levels of time to contribute.  Things like Active Council members. 

Salaamu Alaykum



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 06 August 2006 at 7:51am

I was thinking today, over lunch, of Ernest Hemmingway

How dare you mention Ernest Hemmigway? that bastard is my favourite + a fella Aquarian.

Be carefull mate, we have ways of wrapping you up and bringing you to good old el Andalus. It sacreligious to be in Portugal and forget all about Spain. Thank your stars, I am not in the states otherwise I would definitely have sued you for making me miss such a unique chance.

Sad man. 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 06 August 2006 at 8:04am

Dukhtar'em,

Time flys. I was just keyin in a message to Servetus and 27 minutes just slipped by. It's strange how I have come to treat this place as familiy. i have missed each one of you in all these strange journeys.

(Are you listening, Servetus?)

I don't like designations of any sort at all. We know their reality + I love Equality, I find it almost like a dream. But, people who wish to join us are moved by packages. They respond to what they have come to be on a scale. We have reduced our lives in silly measures.

Nothing matters to you and me other than the smile errupting on a child's face. I have never found anything that gives me a bigger pleasure than that.

But these things matter to the people we will be dealing with; people who can make Angela's Plan a success and secure my grandchildrens' future in what we could say is, today, high risk Britain.



Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 06 August 2006 at 10:02am
While Whisper’s suggestion is the most solid thing we’ve seen on this
forum since Angela’s Plan was first mooted, it is not likely to bring
the troops out of Iraq anytime this year!

While clumsily searching for a way to do this, I have come across
several activism sites which I’ll list here, for those of us who just feel
time is running out for Iraq. I recommend you visit these sites and
add whatever you can to their cause, even if it is just a donation.
You’ll also be able to find out when and where demos and meetings
are taking place if you are able and willing to go out and swell the
visible ranks of people yearning for peace.

I’m just focussing on Iraq, which is what Angela’s plan first
addressed. Implementing Whisper’s plan will take time and will serve
for all the other global war issues, such as Afghanistan, Palestine and
Lebanon/Syria/Iran.

With Cassandra, I had agreed to gather web addresses with the idea
of somehow eventually pressurising and coordinating actions so as
to reach the critical mass necessary for the admin to pay attention.
While harvesting, I came across something which seems aimed at
doing exactly what we had talked about! It is called The World Social
Forum and I’ll add the link and brief description of their aims along
with the rest here. However, this discovery has a taste of bitterness
since it is NOT and organisation, but a forum ….

Meanwhile, to encourage those of us who feel the only way the
troops will be withdrawn soon is if the US public is seen to be asking
for it, here’s an encouraging snippet:

Gallup: 55% Now Back U.S. Pullout from Iraq Within a Year
By E&P Staff Published: August 03, 2006 11:55 AM ET

NEW YORK A new Gallup poll released today revealed another upward
bump in the number of Americans who now want a complete U.S.
troop withdrawal from Iraq in the next 12 months.

That number now stands at 55%, with 19% supporting immediate
withdrawal and another 36% wanting it done by August 2007.

"While the percentage of Americans who favour a withdrawal of all
U.S. troops either now or within a year is not a supermajority, it is a
majority, suggesting that the Democratic leadership is speaking to
an issue that resonates with many Americans," Frank Newport,
director of the Gallup Poll, writes today.

Another majority, 54%, now say that the U.S. invasion in 2003 was a
"mistake."

The partisan divided remains wide on the withdrawal question, with
77% of Democrats wanting U.S. troops out in a year and only 28% of
Republicans. Independents back a 12-month pullout at 56%.
Gallup polled 1,002 adult Americans at the very end of July.

-Now, here are the links for people to check out and act on:

www.troopshomefast.org/article.php?list=type&type=144
http://www.gsfp.org/ Gold Star Families for Peace
http://www.irishantiwar.org/index.adp
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/
http://www.mpdl.org/home.htm

And here is a way of finding more of the same:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anti-war_organizations

What the World Social Forum is

The World Social Forum is an open meeting place where social
movements, networks, NGOs and other civil society organizations
opposed to neo-liberalism and a world dominated by capital or by
any form of imperialism come together to pursue their thinking, to
debate ideas democratically, for formulate proposals, share their
experiences freely and network for effective action. Since the first
world encounter in 2001, it has taken the form of a permanent world
process seeking and building alternatives to neo-liberal policies.
This definition is in its Charter of Principles, the WSF’s guiding
document.

The World Social Forum is also characterized by plurality and
diversity, is non-confessional, non-governmental and non-party. It
proposes to facilitate decentralized coordination and networking
among organizations engaged in concrete action towards building
another world, at any level from the local to the international, but it
does not intend to be a body representing world civil society. The
World Social Forum is not a group nor an organization.
http://www.forumsocialmundial.org.br/index.php?cd_language=2

-My intuition and experience tells me you can not force Nature to do
what you wish: reaching ‘critical mass’ is an organic process which
has its own momentum and abides by its own enigmatic rules.
Forcing issues is rarely productive, allowing them to mature while
guiding them as one nurtures a plant, is perhaps the best way to
treat them. As for the critical mass of public opinion, there definitely
is a way to help it, and that is by joining our voices with those of
organisations which already have a ‘power base’.


World Social Forum is not a group nor an organization.[/
SIZE]


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 07 August 2006 at 7:52am

Angela's Plan was hatched around the end of the second week in June.  Within a few days it ws moved to The Pond in what seemed at the time, to be a fair and equitable arrangement which was less likely to run into problems which perhaps would have been unfiar to Islamicity:  our hosts. However, it does seem to me that this has become the natural place for it since most discussion has reverted to this Forum.  Above all else we need to consolidate opinion.

I like Whisper's ideas but I am afraid that I consider them too long reaching at this point and likely to bog down in procedure. Eventually, it presents a good structure.  I do like the idea of delegation and "training":  "each one, teach one" is the motto of the Laubach Literacy Society of the US, and it is apt here I think. It spreqds incremetally a map of individuals prepared to make some small difference "starfishwise".

I also wholeheartedly agree with Duende: perhaps there is no need for us to re-invent the wheel, although a World Social Initiative is a truly excellent idea. What would it take to bring this about? What can we do to persuade like minded groups to work collectively and effectively forcussing on immediate issues with the viuew towards long-term solutions?

I have to confess that August is a very hard time for me to get involved as my client base is completely full, I have very little "free" time,  and I do not have internet at home.  By mid-September it will be better.

Can we have a "sign up list"?  Who truly wants to do some investigative work?  On a small but potentially larger base given the ideas above. What is our mandate?  What do we have to suggest to other already organised groups around the world which can bring a small voice to the volume of a Global Shout?



Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 08 August 2006 at 8:47am
Hola Cassandra, I too came to the conclusion that Angela's Plan will
remain here, Islamicity hosts willing! The responses over at The Pond
have been minimal and unconstructive, but besides that, there were
one or two comments made which were negative towards moslems. I
was shocked, as these comments came from people who often post
here too.

I like the name: Global Shout, could be a good one for the future
'umbrellist' activists!


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 08 August 2006 at 10:09am

I apologize to everyone that I have been so busy.  Life seems to have kidnapped me in one of the worst ways.  I get up at 7am every morning, go to work, then from work to school and don't get home until 10pm.  Then I have to do laundry, homework and cook dinner for when my husband gets home at 10:30pm. 

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.  I even now type this bleary eyed with lack of sleep.

As I suggested on the Pond (and havent had a moment to go back and check) we do need to understand the players in Iraq.  Tribes, Factions and Political groups.

This is important.  These are the people we are helping and we need to know who they are, what they want and how they want things to be when the US leaves.

Without their support, any Plan will fail.  Right now, they are killing each other faster than the US soliders.  If there is no plan to stop the sectarian violence, then there is no plan for peace.

And don't be naive enough to think that if the US left tomorrow the killing would stop.   If anything, I think it would increase once those not in power realised that the Iraqi government no longer had their American Guards.

So, Who are the people we are dealing with?  We have three subgroups to place all the others into....

Shia - This includes Al-Sadr's Mahdi Militia

Sunni - this includes the foreign insurgents who are non native to Iraq, like the deceased al-Zarqawi.

Kurds - This group seems to be getting forgot in the Sunni/Shia fighting.

Its not enough to get the US soldiers out, the point of the original plan was to leave a stable nation for these people as well.  If the US pulls out now...the human tragedy will be tremendous.  There needs to be a stablizing force to take over.



-------------


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 08 August 2006 at 2:32pm

A lot of us miss you when you are gone, Whisper.  Not least because when you are gone, the spice disappears and, instead of being served a nice dish of nan-kebab, we are forced to eat BigMacs instead. 

 

Speaking again of Hemingway’s biography, and though I don’t know his literary works well, I think also of how strangely unregulated must have been the lives of Americans during the era of the Spanish civil war, 1936-39!  I mean, a contingent of them, the “Abraham Lincoln Brigade,” along with volunteers from other nations, actually went to Spain, took up arms, and participated in the fight!  It’s not that I necessarily support their position, so much, or the cause for which they strove, but I simply note how apparently free they were in that process (though some later felt the political repercussions).   

 

These days, it seems, and, if it need be said, I do know that there are good reasons for heightened security in the USA, we almost have to get permission from Michael Chertoff to take a cyber-bicycle ride out beyond the Homeland to visit with auslanders [outsiders]. 

 

Serv 

 

An Empire?  America can’t even balance its own check book! 



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 09 August 2006 at 9:01am

Is anyone here familiar with or owns Microsoft Project?

I'm currently taking a Project Management course and I can see part of the problem has boiled down to we have no plan. 

We have no clear idea of resources, time, tasks.   This class is really openning my eyes up on how to manage such a large project.



-------------


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 10 August 2006 at 4:14pm

"A spark can start a prairy fire"

OR

"The Great Oak is born of a tiny acorn"

Angela, when you are meant to be, you simply are. All else stands by as sheer excuses. This is your hour. Only women have the wisdom and the guts to save the planet.

Do you know why you are called a woman?



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 18 August 2006 at 2:08pm

Woman.....

Because we were put here by God to say "Whoa man, slow down,  you can't do that!" 

Seriously though...

I think we really need to get at least one or two Iraqis into the beginning of this.  Anyone have an Iraqi friend they can talk into this?

I know a sister who has Iraqi friends, but they are all for the war. 

Makes me wonder what we will be dealing with in the fight to get this ended.



-------------


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 19 August 2006 at 11:26am
[QUOTE=Angela To Whisper..........

Woman.....

Because we were put here by God to say "Whoa man, slow down,  you can't do that!" 

Seriously though...  You mean you were joking.....?

I haven't given up on the plan, still want to do something, though we may have to change focus as reinventing the wheel isn't, I am beginning to realise, going to work. I have been so busy, and, somewhat unexpectedly distracted by recent (happy) personal events.  But I'm still around.  Cass



Posted By: allheart
Date Posted: 21 August 2006 at 12:42pm

 Is the violence in Iraq only product of americans and iraquis?

 Could it possibly be that there's an Israeli involvement too? (consider Mossad's motto: "by the way of deception thou shalt do war")

 This site seems to agree with this possiblity:

  http://judicial-inc.biz/Israel_in_Iraq.htm - http://judicial-inc.biz/Israel_in_Iraq.htm

 Are zionists instigating fights among several groups of people?

 Does history have a record of them doing so?

 This site is discusses this issue openly: www.iamthewitness.com



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 September 2006 at 7:01am
Are we or are we not doing Angela's Plan. It's the right time and the global stage, you may know, is all set for it. Lets move and cause peace. I know, it may not last a whole lifetime, but whatever moments we could find would be worth it.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 September 2006 at 8:17am

Whisper,

I would really like this to work, however, the major participates were all non-Muslim and that's not the way it needs to be.  Its why it fizzled even on the Pond.  The West cannot continue to make decisions for the Middle East.  We need more men like yourself (and women) who are Muslim, Educated, and Energetic.  We need a project manager who is as passionate about this as they are calm, wise and diplomatic.  Without participation from the Ummah, Muslimah is right...its just a bunch of Christian Westerners making more decisions for the Ummah.



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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 14 September 2006 at 3:24am

Without participation from the Ummah, Muslimah is right...its just a bunch of Christian Westerners making more decisions for the Ummah.

I may have agreed with that comment had I not found more Christians and Jews, investing their rare Saturday afternoons, on some very frozen February roads, for Peace's sake.

I would have agreed with you if Peace were some Ummah's master franchise. It's the basic divine right of all humanity. We are not making any decisions for anyone, we are just striving to flow into a better, okay, a slightly better world for our children (grandchildren, in my case!).

We will meet a whole range of even more interesting commentary, but we must go on for our own sakes. You hold some unusual strengths in your own right. For some reason, the women on this board have come to stand as the more equal in socio-cultural-spiritual domain. I could steal one of Duende's lines here; "perhaps, only because woman happens to be the Center of Society" - as such you hold the responsibility for this world a wee more than us poor single function manufactured single track trained men.

Angela, step out. And, the day you do, I will wrap up or contract out all my worldly functions to some contractors (when did I say "civilian contractors?) and be one of your full time assistants. I will move to a region from where we would have all the support we need, from intellectuals, poets, artists and, would you believe it, even from some state fuctionaries.

I have been out a couple of times since the plan was launched. You could say, I have almost test marketted it in a few countries - the world is waiting for it. It will have a much bigger response as a gesture from American sympathisers of our planet's present plight!

We need a project manager who is as passionate about this as they are calm, wise and diplomatic. When we start on our journey, we will find such a Project Manager + Project Manageritos in every country. We will find regional boards across the world, specially, in countries like Malaysia, India, Turkey, Pakistan, Spain, Britain, Lebanon, Jordan - where they are about as fed up with their Foreign Assembled King as much are the Pakistanis and the Iraqis with Military occupations.

My friend, time is just ripe. Let's do something for us.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 14 September 2006 at 3:36am

I would really like this to work, however, the major participates were all non-Muslim and that's not the way it needs to be

Forgot to mention;

it's composition will change by the time we come to constitute our board - we start with a Convening Body or a Committee of people in hand. It won't just function on Islamicity, AP will grow out into the real world.

If you insist, I would get a Society registered under the societies Act 1861 with people from different parts of the world. Suggest a name + your nominees and my chaps would get it done in a week. We could always start by retaining U + 2 and spread from there.

Whatever the strength of the war lobby - far greater people across the world are now simply crying for peace and are willing to do something for it.

We will have Peace ONLY when we make it as FULL TIME occupation exactly like the vultures have made war a full time thing.



Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 21 October 2006 at 1:03am
What's this all about, by the way? Frankly, I am sceptical. I believe unless Muslims are left alone, there won't be any peace. And until Muslims are left alone, Muslims should not think of peace.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 21 October 2006 at 8:52am

Originally posted by candid

What's this all about, by the way? Frankly, I am sceptical. I believe unless Muslims are left alone, there won't be any peace. And until Muslims are left alone, Muslims should not think of peace.

muslims should not think of peace?? what kind of notion is that?

want peace, stop fighting/wars simple as that really  

of course this goes for everyone.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 23 October 2006 at 1:59am

West is simply interested in robbing the Muslims. There is no point in making peace with the West.

It will come back again at some other pretext.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 25 October 2006 at 3:10pm

Angela, the poor US President, Tony Ze Liar and the whole world today needs your plan. They all need someone to just throw them a shred of an excuse to get out of Iraq and now alo Afghanistan.

Please, be brave, we are all waiting for you.



Posted By: Ruggedtouch
Date Posted: 29 October 2006 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by candid

West is simply interested in robbing the Muslims. There is no point in making peace with the West.

It will come back again at some other pretext.

I wasn’t aware that the West was robbing the Muslims™ of anything.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what the Muslims™ are being robbed of and who is doing the robbing.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 October 2006 at 10:23pm

I wasn’t aware that the West was robbing the Muslims™ of anything. Then, kindly, do become aware by reading some serious books. West is not just robbing Muslims, but almost anyone and everyone. The poor and now badly bleeding Latin American robbed are not Muslims.




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