Print Page | Close Window

Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5298
Printed Date: 23 October 2014 at 6:07am


Topic: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.
Posted By: zulqarnain
Subject: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:14am
This is totally illogical. Any christian should please explain to me why do you believe this; becasue it is mentioned in the Bible? What is the logic behind this.

-------------
And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)



Replies:
Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:15am
How can any soul be responsible for the wrong of another soul? Islam says that every soul is reponsible for it's own actions.

-------------
And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 6:58am
The Jews at that time no longer believed in an afterlife. 

By dying and then coming back from the dead, Jesus proved that an afterlife exists.

-------------
David C.


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:51am
Originally posted by zulqarnain

This is totally illogical. Any christian should please explain to me why do you believe this; becasue it is mentioned in the Bible? What is the logic behind this.

How can any soul be responsible for the wrong of another soul? Islam says that every soul is reponsible for it's own actions.



And Christians are responsible for their sins as well.

In the Old Testament you can find scriptures where one person's death atoned for the sins of another.

If you look at Isaiah 53, whether you believe it is referring to Jesus or not, you will see:

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

There are other verses I could offer.

http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss18.html

The penalty for sins was death.  God setup the sacrificial system as atonement for sins.  Repentance, prayer and sacrifices all went together.

You can rely on the mercy of God that He will forgive your sins, but you have not assurance that He will do so.  We do not keep God's laws perfectly, we do not worship Him perfectly, we are human and we sin and there is no doubt about it.

I believe that God saw this and provided a way so that we all could live with Him in the thereafter and that was the sacrifice of Messiah Jesus.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:54am
Originally posted by DavidC

The Jews at that time no longer believed in an afterlife. 

By dying and then coming back from the dead, Jesus proved that an afterlife exists.


David, that is the only proof we have.  The risen Jesus is proof that we too will rise someday.  But what do you do when people deny that Jesus died much less rose from the dead?  What will God do?

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 11:12am
Originally posted by AnnieTwo

  But what do you do when people deny that Jesus died much less rose from the dead?  What will God do?


Jesus said disbelief in the Son could be forgiven as long as people cleave to the Will of God (the Holy Spirit).  I think most good Muslims probably satisfy this requirement.


-------------
David C.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 11:18am

Originally posted by DavidC

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

  But what do you do when people deny that Jesus died much less rose from the dead?  What will God do?


Jesus said disbelief in the Son could be forgiven as long as people cleave to the Will of God (the Holy Spirit).  I think most good Muslims probably satisfy this requirement.

EXACTLY!  People spend too much time saying this or that group are going to Hell for disbelief.  Its all up to God whom he decides is worthy of heaven and who isn't.



-------------


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 11:53am
Originally posted by DavidC

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

  But what do you do when people deny that Jesus died much less rose from the dead?  What will God do?


Jesus said disbelief in the Son could be forgiven as long as people cleave to the Will of God (the Holy Spirit).  I think most good Muslims probably satisfy this requirement.


Please quote the Scripture because I disagree.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by DavidC

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

  But what do you do when people deny that Jesus died much less rose from the dead?  What will God do?


Jesus said disbelief in the Son could be forgiven as long as people cleave to the Will of God (the Holy Spirit).  I think most good Muslims probably satisfy this requirement.

EXACTLY!  People spend too much time saying this or that group are going to Hell for disbelief.  Its all up to God whom he decides is worthy of heaven and who isn't.



Dear Angela, I am on a roll.  I disagree with you too.

I do agree with you that "people" have no right to say who will be saved and that is up to God, but I believe that Jesus taught that it was only through him that anyone can be saved.  I think he made that quite clear.  And he made it quite clear what we were supposed to do, follow him, obey him, etc.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:38pm
Matt. 12:31 And so I tell you, every human sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matt. 12:32 And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.
Matt. 12:33 ¶ ‘Make a tree sound and its fruit will be sound; make a tree rotten and its fruit will be rotten. For the tree can be told by its fruit.
Matt. 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can your speech be good when you are evil? For words flow out of what fills the heart.
Matt. 12:35 Good people draw good things from their store of goodness; bad people draw bad things from their store of badness.

# # #
Luke 12:10 ¶ ‘Everyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but no one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven.
Luke 6:43 ¶ ‘There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit.
Luke 6:44 Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles.
Luke 6:45 Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart.
# # #

Mark 3:28 ¶ ‘In truth I tell you, all human sins will be forgiven, and all the blasphemies ever uttered;
Mark 3:29 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’




-------------
David C.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:54pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo



Dear Angela, I am on a roll.  I disagree with you too.

I do agree with you that "people" have no right to say who will be saved and that is up to God, but I believe that Jesus taught that it was only through him that anyone can be saved.  I think he made that quite clear.  And he made it quite clear what we were supposed to do, follow him, obey him, etc.

Annie
[/QUOTE]

And that is your right to disagree.  I base my belief not on scripture written by the hand of men (inspired or not) but on a basic common sense.  There has to be another path to Heaven or else millions who lived and died before Christ, after Christ and now who do not hear the word will parish with no hope.  There has to be more than just Christ.  I cannot believe that 4 billions of the worlds inhabitants will perish in eternal fire.  God is loving and we are all his children.  The "Our Way is the Only Way" is what drove me away from religion in the first place.



-------------


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by AnnieTwo



Dear Angela, I am on a roll.  I disagree with you too.

I do agree with you that "people" have no right to say who will be saved and that is up to God, but I believe that Jesus taught that it was only through him that anyone can be saved.  I think he made that quite clear.  And he made it quite clear what we were supposed to do, follow him, obey him, etc.

Annie

And that is your right to disagree.  I base my belief not on scripture written by the hand of men (inspired or not) but on a basic common sense.  There has to be another path to Heaven or else millions who lived and died before Christ, after Christ and now who do not hear the word will parish with no hope.  There has to be more than just Christ.  I cannot believe that 4 billions of the worlds inhabitants will perish in eternal fire.  God is loving and we are all his children.  The "Our Way is the Only Way" is what drove me away from religion in the first place.

[/QUOTE]

And I base my opinion on Scripture and not on "common sense."  Common sense is really man's common sense.  That does not mean it is God's view.

The righteous people who died before Messiah Jesus were saved by Messiah Jesus.

God has to have some sort of a plan for those who have never heard of Jesus, but those are getting fewer and fewer.

If someone rejects God's salvation after understanding it, then it is at their own peril

Angela, it is not up to you to decide, it is only up to God.  He has provided the way.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:51pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo



And I base my opinion on Scripture and not on "common sense."  Common sense is really man's common sense.  That does not mean it is God's view.

The Bible has been in the hands of "mankind" for 2,000 years.  There is always the possibility there are missing parts.  Jesus said their are others not of this flock...

The righteous people who died before Messiah Jesus were saved by Messiah Jesus.

Are you so sure?  If they didn't accept Christ, then how are they saved through him....as far as my knowledge goes, we're the only ones who believe in redemption for the dead.

God has to have some sort of a plan for those who have never heard of Jesus, but those are getting fewer and fewer.

Hearing the name and understanding the message are two different things.  I have a friend in Russia who grew up under Communism.  She knows the name Jesus Christ, but she knows and could know nothing else. Now in her adulthood and with her culture, she has no concept of the True and Living Christ.  Only a few pictures on the walls of long empty churches after 75 years of State imposed atheism.  Things are improving, but just hearing of Jesus does not mean the person got the "message".  Same with People exposed to Islam.  They may know who Muhammed is supposed to be, but was it presented to them in a way that allowed of a concious acceptance or rejection.  If from the very beginning you are taught false prophet, false teachings, false doctrine, chances are, you aren't going to look any further.

If someone rejects God's salvation after understanding it, then it is at their own peril

This is exactly it....they have to understand it to truly reject it.  So again, there has to be another way....

Angela, it is not up to you to decide, it is only up to God.  He has provided the way.

He has provided ways...I don't think he's provided only one.  DavidC showed you in scripture where rejection of the Son does not mean you're going to hell. 

Annie



-------------


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:01pm
But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation.

I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation.

And the discussion is wandering off topic...


-------------
David C.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:15pm

Originally posted by DavidC

But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation.

I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation.

And the discussion is wandering off topic...

Not necessarily.  If the topic is Jesus did not die for our sins, a fundamental part of that is who receives the Salvation and who doesn't. 

If you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do good deeds, then salvation can be had.  But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere.  You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven.  Therefore, in my mind, you can't be a good person and do good works and go to hell just for not accepting Christ. 

The question is when Christ died.  Was it to erase sins or to conquer death (given death being the result of the Original Sin)?

Are my sins erased just by his death, or by my own repentance and works? 

What about those Muslims who pray to God 5 times a day and ask forgiveness for their sins?  Would go not accept their repentance just because they claim Jesus as their beloved Prophet and not God's Son?



-------------


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 6:13pm

This is what I believe qualifies as "common sense", and is a great part of my religion as a Catholic.  It shows the immense mercy of God toward ALL mankind, and is one of many reasons why I am Catholic.

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*)

God's Peace.



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 7:35pm

Zulqarnain,

Jesus came into this world with the following prime message:

"You shall worship only your One God and you shall worship that One God with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." (My quote showing the key message)

The entire Law and the Universe revolve around this. Jesus did not come here to carry people's sins or anybody's sins. That is not what he taught himself openly and that was never his line of teaching.

The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later.  It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking  anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin.

God Almighty's Mercy and Compassion has been known to the mankind, even before the arrival and exit of Jesus. That Mercy and Compassion extends to everything. You will find this clear verse in Qur'aan.

No soul shall bear the burdens of anyone. The already-burdened ones would not want to bear any additional burdens of their own kids, family and relatives. They will say,"I am already burdened, don't you see I am so over-loaded! You go and carry your own!".  



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by Angela

But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere.  You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven. 



I said believe, not just say you believe.  Hypocrites need not apply.


-------------
David C.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 6:18am

BMZ said:

"The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later.  It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking  anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin."

Jesus said to them in John 8:32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Verse 36 “Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Jesus continued to give His disciples more information on His purpose for coming to earth. Mark 8:31: “And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again”

John 12:23-25: “But Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified." Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

There are many other Gospel verses spoken by Jesus, but these I believe point out the fact that Jesus did speak of the importance of His death for the redemption of our sins.

God's Peace.



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 9:29am
Look everybody. I agree taht "Common sense" is man's tool of evaluating logically, and that Allah's Plans cannot be understood by human minds. The more we study of God's Plan, the more puzzles there are to solve. The educated Christians should eveluate their religion as far as their logic can reach. A word from Allah ceases to be His Word, if it is not compatible with modern times, for He knows the future. This verse from the Bible is a fabrication of an author.
Look now, you people have to admit, e.g. if you had to choose a religion and you are pretty well educated, you would choose the religion which is most logical and is compatible with modern times. I won't argu further, because it would deviate from the topic
Every soul is responsible for it's own action, nobody can be held responsible for the other, even a follower of a teacher should analyze his teachings before he follows it.

-------------
And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by DavidC

But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation.

I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation.

And the discussion is wandering off topic...

Not necessarily.  If the topic is Jesus did not die for our sins, a fundamental part of that is who receives the Salvation and who doesn't. 

If you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do good deeds, then salvation can be had.  But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere.  You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven.  Therefore, in my mind, you can't be a good person and do good works and go to hell just for not accepting Christ. 

The question is when Christ died.  Was it to erase sins or to conquer death (given death being the result of the Original Sin)?

Are my sins erased just by his death, or by my own repentance and works? 

What about those Muslims who pray to God 5 times a day and ask forgiveness for their sins?  Would go not accept their repentance just because they claim Jesus as their beloved Prophet and not God's Son?



Aren't we getting into the territory of which God are we speaking of?  The one who lives on "Main Street" or the one who lives on "State Street?"

How can Muslims claim to love or believe in Jesus as their beloved prophet when rejecting him as Messiah?  The "son of God" as understood in first century Judaism was another title for the Messiah.

Didn't Jesus say that unless we believe that he is the Messiah, we will die in our sins? 

If Allah says he doesn't have "sons" and YHVH claims that he does, are we worshipping the same God?

And if we are not worshipping the same God then....

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 10:55am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Zulqarnain,

Jesus came into this world with the following prime message:

"You shall worship only your One God and you shall worship that One God with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." (My quote showing the key message)

So this is what the Jews and Christians do.  This is not the reason Jesus came into this world.  He came primarily to bring in the Kingdom of God which included the forgiveness of sins.

The entire Law and the Universe revolve around this. Jesus did not come here to carry people's sins or anybody's sins. That is not what he taught himself openly and that was never his line of teaching.

He did and you can find the passages where he said it.  "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45).

The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later.  It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

No so.  Jesus was a prophet and knew the Old Testament Scriptures.  He knew the fall of man and the cause and he also knew the cure.

Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking  anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin.

See above.

God Almighty's Mercy and Compassion has been known to the mankind, even before the arrival and exit of Jesus. That Mercy and Compassion extends to everything. You will find this clear verse in Qur'aan.

Yes, God has mercy and compassion but he hates sins and none of us can obey him perfectly.  "Be holy because I am holy."  Man falls too short.  We couldn't possibly do enough good works to pay our way to paradise.  We needed a savior and God provided.

No soul shall bear the burdens of anyone. The already-burdened ones would not want to bear any additional burdens of their own kids, family and relatives. They will say,"I am already burdened, don't you see I am so over-loaded! You go and carry your own!".

We all are responsible for our own sins.



-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:07am

Originally posted by AnnieTwo


Aren't we getting into the territory of which God are we speaking of?  The one who lives on "Main Street" or the one who lives on "State Street?"

How can Muslims claim to love or believe in Jesus as their beloved prophet when rejecting him as Messiah?  The "son of God" as understood in first century Judaism was another title for the Messiah.

Didn't Jesus say that unless we believe that he is the Messiah, we will die in our sins? 

If Allah says he doesn't have "sons" and YHVH claims that he does, are we worshipping the same God?

And if we are not worshipping the same God then....

Annie

As far as I have learned, the Muslims do accept Jesus as the Messiah.  Just not the Son of God, but a miraculous creation of God.  They reject the notion that God needs a Son or that there is Salvation through a sacrifice by Proxy.  The Messiah as in the Jewish Messiah was not the same as we Christians define the Messiah.  But, Jesus is the Messiah in both Islam and Christianity with different definitions of what that means.

They believe in Jesus, but deny his Divine Sonship.  It comes down to trusting in Scriptures written between 20-100 years after the death and resurrection. 

Proof will come in time...

Revelation 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Both the Muslims and the Christians believe Christ will return.  We must have faith that when he does, he will put to rest any false teachings done in his name. 



-------------


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:42am
Originally posted by DavidC

Matt. 12:31 And so I tell you, every human sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matt. 12:32 And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.
Matt. 12:33 ¶ ‘Make a tree sound and its fruit will be sound; make a tree rotten and its fruit will be rotten. For the tree can be told by its fruit.
Matt. 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can your speech be good when you are evil? For words flow out of what fills the heart.
Matt. 12:35 Good people draw good things from their store of goodness; bad people draw bad things from their store of badness.

# # #
Luke 12:10 ¶ ‘Everyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but no one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven.
Luke 6:43 ¶ ‘There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit.
Luke 6:44 Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles.
Luke 6:45 Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart.
# # #

Mark 3:28 ¶ ‘In truth I tell you, all human sins will be forgiven, and all the blasphemies ever uttered;
Mark 3:29 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’




David,

You might get something out of this article.  http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html

It is why I disagreed with you.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:57am
Angela,

Aren't we getting into the territory of which God are we speaking of?  The one who lives on "Main Street" or the one who lives on "State Street?"

How can Muslims claim to love or believe in Jesus as their beloved prophet when rejecting him as Messiah?  The "son of God" as understood in first century Judaism was another title for the Messiah.

Didn't Jesus say that unless we believe that he is the Messiah, we will die in our sins? 

If Allah says he doesn't have "sons" and YHVH claims that he does, are we worshipping the same God?

And if we are not worshipping the same God then....

Annie

Originally posted by Angela


As far as I have learned, the Muslims do accept Jesus as the Messiah.


They accept him as a Messiah, similar to the other Messiahs, but not as the Messiah, the King Messiah.  The Messiah that the Jews are still waiting for who will bring in the end of their exile and forgiveness of sins, and the Kingdom of God. [/QUOTE]

<>
Originally posted by Angela


Just not the Son of God, but a miraculous creation of God.


I don't understand what you mean.  I know they don't believe that Jesus is divine, but the term "son of God" does not in itself mean divinity; it is a term used by God which denotes a special relationship with a certain person or nation.

Originally posted by Angela


They reject the notion that God needs a Son. 


"Needs a Son" in what way?  God is self-sufficient and needs no one, but He chose sons.

Originally posted by Angela


or that there is Salvation through a sacrifice by Proxy.


God provides salvation for man as He sees fit.

Originally posted by Anglea


The Messiah as in the Jewish Messiah was not the same as we Christians define the Messiah.


The Jews expected all kinds of things in the first century.  One was a warrior Messiah.  Jesus' view was one of peace.  Some Jews expect two Messiahs.

Originally posted by Angela


But, Jesus is the Messiah in both Islam and Christianity with different definitions of what that means.


Jesus is a Messiah in Islam; Jesus is the Messiah in Christianity.

Originally posted by Angela


They believe in Jesus, but deny his Divine Sonship.


I know this.

Originally posted by Angela


It comes down to trusting in Scriptures written between 20-100 years after the death and resurrection. 


I think it is more than that.  I think it is a matter that the Qur'an contradicts the Scriptures.

Proof will come in time...

Originally posted by Angela


Revelation 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Both the Muslims and the Christians believe Christ will return.  We must have faith that when he does, he will put to rest any false teachings done in his name. 


BMZ does not believe that Jesus will come again, so there must be others who believe as he does out there somewhere.

Good wishes to you, Angela. :)

Annie



-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 12:52pm

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com - http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

This is the best site I've found as to what mainstream Muslims believe about Christ.



-------------


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 2:33pm

Angela, you are doing a great job, Masha'Allah.

Annietwo: Muslims do not doubt the miracle of the birth of Jesus, we just do not see it as any more miraculous than the creation of Adam, who had no mother or father, or Eve, who was created from a rib. We do not see any of these Prophets as being divine.

I believe that Jesus will return. Most Muslims do. Jesus had/has a special purpose, of that there is no doubt. But he is not God, Godlike, part of a Godhead, or divine in any way.

To believe that accepting Jesus as your salvation will immediately get you into heaven is to twist the scriptures into fallacy.

Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

Angela, you are doing a great job, Masha'Allah.

Annietwo: Muslims do not doubt the miracle of the birth of Jesus, we just do not see it as any more miraculous than the creation of Adam, who had no mother or father, or Eve, who was created from a rib. We do not see any of these Prophets as being divine.


I know you believe in the miraculous birth of Jesus.  Jesus' birth was more miraculous than that of Adam because God had no choice in creating Adam without a mother or father.  He had a choice with Jesus.  In other words, God went outside of the already establishing way of producing children.  He had to have had a reason for that.  Christians believe it was because of the incarnation.  And because of the incarnation, no other prophet was divine, only Messiah Jesus.

Originally posted by Mishmish


I believe that Jesus will return. Most Muslims do. Jesus had/has a special purpose, of that there is no doubt. But he is not God, Godlike, part of a Godhead, or divine in any way.


I believe that he will return too.  Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus was divine in nature via the incarnation of the Word of God.  No other prophet made the claims that Jesus did.

Originally posted by Mishmish


To believe that accepting Jesus as your salvation will immediately get you into heaven is to twist the scriptures into fallacy.


How so?  This is what Jesus preached.

Originally posted by Mishmish


Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Yes, there are many Christians who will not make it.  Christians who play lip service to being a Christian who are not really Christians.  Christians who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.  They are only fooling themselves.  This is what Jesus meant with the scriptures above.

Annie



-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 3:37pm

Annie:

God ALWAYS has a choice....

 



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 3:55pm

Annie wrote:

Mishmish wrote:

To believe that accepting Jesus as your salvation will immediately get you into heaven is to twist the scriptures into fallacy.


"How so?  This is what Jesus preached."

The Bible does state otherwise... in these passages it also states that Abraham's faith was perfected without accepting Jesus as his savior or God.

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

 2:19 You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 2:25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 7:47pm

Mishmish,

That very point is one of the reason Orthodox Christians reject my faith....they believe by Grace alone will we be saved that no works are needed.

But, I'm glad you think I'm doing well.  LOL



-------------


Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 14 June 2006 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Angela

Mishmish,

That very point is one of the reason Orthodox Christians reject my faith....they believe by Grace alone will we be saved that no works are needed.

But, I'm glad you think I'm doing well.  LOL

 

Faith without Works is DEAD...Can't they read?



-------------
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 3:51am
Originally posted by Angela

Mishmish,

That very point is one of the reason Orthodox Christians reject my faith....they believe by Grace alone will we be saved that no works are needed.

But, I'm glad you think I'm doing well.  LOL



I don't think so, Angela.

Good works is proof of one's faith.  If you don't have good works, you don't have faith.  Faith comes first and then the good works follow.

I don't know much about your faith so I can't comment on it.

But if a person thinks that good works is going to get them into heaven without true faith then I am afraid they are mistaken.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 3:52am
Originally posted by Maryah

Originally posted by Angela

Mishmish,

That very point is one of the reason Orthodox Christians reject my faith....they believe by Grace alone will we be saved that no works are needed.

But, I'm glad you think I'm doing well.  LOL

Maryah,

Faith without Works is DEAD...Can't they read?


It is not grace alone as I explained to Angela in my previous post.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 4:03am
Originally posted by Mishmish

Annie:

God ALWAYS has a choice....

 



In the case of Adam God had to make him without a mother and a father.  Do you see?

In the case of Jesus He could have had a prophet with a human father and mother, but He didn't chose to do so.

Why do you think God chose to have Jesus born without a human father?  For what purpose?  What reason does the Qur'an give for this?

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 5:19am

Dear Annie,

From you:"In the case of Adam God had to make him without a mother and a father.  Do you see?

In the case of Jesus He could have had a prophet with a human father and mother, but He didn't chose to do so.

Why do you think God chose to have Jesus born without a human father?  For what purpose?  What reason does the Qur'an give for this?"

This in itself could be a huge topic. Could you please post this as a new topic and all of us can go back to the topic that Jesus did not die for our sins.

Thanks in anticipation.



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:04am

In the Roman Catholic Church we believe we must have great faith as well as works.  We are to do as Christ said and "feed the needy, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc.  If we fail to meet the obligations as laid out by Jesus, we have failed him miserably.  There are many who claim to be Christians (and who am I to judge), but they're examples are rather shoddy to say the least.  They never seem to be happy, they don't want to help with anything at Church, if you offer a handshake they seem "put off" by it.  They certainly do not "let their light shine" as Jesus told us to do. 

So, yes, I believe it is most important that in addition to having great faith in the words of our Lord, and believing the scriptures and Gospels, we must additionally live the life of a Christian as we have been told.....not suggested, but told to live.  What good are we as Christians if we have memorized the Bible in its entirety, but fail to follow the teachings and commandments.  It is worthless to say we believe "every single word" but fail to follow those words. 

Maybe the Greek Orthodox Church does not believe in works, Angela, but I can assure you the Roman Catholic Church does!

May the peace of God be with you always.



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:25am

Scriptures do reveal that repentence and acknowledgement of Jesus as the Redeemer, as well as doing good works, are in combination, necessary for salvation:

For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. (John 1:12)

What this means is that those who become Christians become new persons. They are not the same anymore, for the old life is gone. A new life has begun! (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Jesus said: "No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will also perish." (Luke 13:5)

Then we must also combine good works with our repentence and faith, as well as acknowledging Jesus as our Lord and Redeemer.

The Faith and good works situation is very similar. Good works are the necessary fruits of faith for "Faith without works is dead", Jm. 2:14-26. It is true that if one has faith, it is necessary that good works follow. However, we cannot look at a man who does good works and assume he has Faith, for even the pagans do good deeds and do not have Faith.

To say that good works are not necessary for salvation is a falsity. It is Faith combined with good works that is necessary for Salvation. The two apart from one another are useless. I hope that somewhat gives you my viewpoint on the whole situation.

God's Peace.



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:47am
Originally posted by Patty

 

Maybe the Greek Orthodox Church does not believe in works, Angela, but I can assure you the Roman Catholic Church does!

May the peace of God be with you always.

Actually, I was referring to the ever popular "Born Agains" who say works aren't needed.  This is from the street preachers and protestors that harass us ever General Conference.

http://www.inchristalone.org/GraceAlone.htm - http://www.inchristalone.org/GraceAlone.htm

Here's what be believe....

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Are_We_Saved_by_Grace_Alone.html - http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Are_We_Saved_by_Grace_Alone.htm l

 

If you are living a faithful Christian life, then you are doing works.  But, I know a few ladies from back at my grandmother's Methodist Church that sit there every Sunday, but when the bake sales or charity programs happen, they disappear.  Hypocrisy is everywhere.

That is what we mean by you must have works.  Its not good enough to just say it, you have to do it.

Frankly, I don't know what the Eastern Orthodox church teaches on Grace, the subject never really came up. 



-------------


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 9:56am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Dear Annie,

From you:"In the case of Adam God had to make him without a mother and a father.  Do you see?

In the case of Jesus He could have had a prophet with a human father and mother, but He didn't chose to do so.

Why do you think God chose to have Jesus born without a human father?  For what purpose?  What reason does the Qur'an give for this?"

This in itself could be a huge topic. Could you please post this as a new topic and all of us can go back to the topic that Jesus did not die for our sins.

Thanks in anticipation.



I choose my own topics.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:17pm

Angela,

This was really a good one from you:"If you are living a faithful Christian life, then you are doing works.  But, I know a few ladies from back at my grandmother's Methodist Church that sit there every Sunday, but when the bake sales or charity programs happen, they disappear.  Hypocrisy is everywhere."

Beautiful and correct observation.

We have a verse in Qur'aan and I would love to transliterate it first and translate in English, you might enjoy that:

"Lan Tana-lul-bir-raa, Hat-ta Tun-fay-qu mim-maa Tu-hib-boon"

simply translated it means "You can't find righteousness until you spend freely what you love most." 

In other words, one cannot reach that higehst level of righteousness until one can spend one's wealth in the service of God Almighty by spending on the poor and the needy.

BMZ



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:20pm

BMZ,

I'm sure you don't need 1 Corinthians 13?  That is my favorite scripture.  Charity being the greatest act of faith.



-------------


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:34pm

That is beautiful, Angela.

I thank God Almighty to have blessed so many of us with a golden heart.

After reading posts from your goodself and Patty, I have a feeling that the Mormons and Catholics feel closer to Islam while some  Evangelist Protestants tend to widen the gaps large, allowing no bridges to be built.

Best Regards

BMZ



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:45pm

  I think its because Catholics and Mormons understand what its like to have your beliefs misunderstood and twisted for politics.  There is a real focus in both Churches on reaching out and building interfaith relations.  Pope John Paul II was big on fostering Peace and Pope Benedict the XVI has denounced the war.  Prophet Hinckley has instructed us to be charitable and to extend hands in peace, love and charity.

Islam is a beautiful faith, reading the Hadiths you can see the qualities of Prophet Muhammed http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYYYUS">Peace Be Upon Him  . 

I think we need to focus on being more Christlike and more like the Great Prophets.  The world would be a better place if we did what the scriptures dictate to us.



-------------


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 10:26pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Originally posted by zulqarnain

This is totally illogical. Any christian should please explain to me why do you believe this; becasue it is mentioned in the Bible? What is the logic behind this.

How can any soul be responsible for the wrong of another soul? Islam says that every soul is reponsible for it's own actions.



And Christians are responsible for their sins as well.

But Christians are unable to live a good life according to the laws of Gd, so they believe Gd was birthed through his mother to enter this world so He could die and "fulfill" the law, that way they could live according to the laws of man. So although Christians are responsible for sin, they are incapable of doing what is right and need Jesus as a sacrifice to serve as a "sin sacrifice" fo all future sins that have yet to be committed.

Christians have to make up their own laws, mad made laws, because Gd's laws are irrelevant.  

 

So, yes Christians are responsible for sin, but they are incapable of follwing Gd's commands and require a "super sacrifice".

 

Originally posted by Annie2


In the Old Testament you can find scriptures where one person's death atoned for the sins of another.

If you look at Isaiah 53, whether you believe it is referring to Jesus or not, you will see:

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

There are other verses I could offer.

http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss18.html - http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss18.html

This verse does not saying anything about atoning for every sin within the same context as your belief that Jesus was a super "divine" sacrifice for sins including getting high, adultery, etc. Isaiah 53:12 does not state, or imply, that the suffering servant will be able to bear "sin", as in a "sin blood atonement" for crack heads or prostitutes.

Originally posted by Annie2


The penalty for sins was death.  God setup the sacrificial system as atonement for sins.  Repentance, prayer and sacrifices all went together.

Theological nonsense.

Adam lived a long life, even after his expellation from the garden.

Moses wondered the desert for 40 years even after his "transgression".

Please show me a single example from the Hebrew Scriptures where someone died from committing a sin. Do not confuse this with a punishment for a sin, such as adultery.

The sacrificial system can expiate sin, but it cannot expiate every type of sin. So yes, a blood sacrifice and sincere repentance all go hand in hand, but a blood sacrifice could not expiate some sin which sincere repentance could, or a wheat offering was equal to a blood sacrifice. They were interchangable, but none relied on the other as you are trying to allude. 

 

Originally posted by Annie2


You can rely on the mercy of God that He will forgive your sins, but you have not assurance that He will do so. 

Yes, this is why we all need the church and Jesus. This was the yoke placed around the hapless ex pagan gentiles' necks. In fact, you can rely on the Mercy of Gd, and you do have the ability to do as Gd commanded.

Originally posted by Annie2

 We do not keep God's laws perfectly, we do not worship Him perfectly, we are human and we sin and there is no doubt about it.

There is only doubt from Christians who believe they are incapable of having a relaitonship with Gd unless he birthed Himself and then died, so that all of the future sins they will commit because they have no ability to do so can be forgiven.

1) Moses would be considered a heretic, else your church has told you a lie. We are capable of following the commands of Gd, and no one but you can do it.

Deut 30:11-16

30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil,

30:16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

Who would you believe since you claim your bible is the word of Gd, Moses, or your church? Moses, or second century ex-pagans who neither knew Jesus or Gd?

2) Job kept the commands perfectly. Once again, your church has told you a falsehood (pious fraud). How else would you explain this if not an act of piouse fraud?


Originally posted by Annie2


I believe that God saw this and provided a way so that we all could live with Him in the thereafter and that was the sacrifice of Messiah Jesus.

Annie

So why did Gd not tell Moses that His system was not complete and they really needed the second part of the triune to come to earth and die? Deut 30:14 says, in no uncertain form, that we can do what we are told, and we are not incapable automatons who Gd mindlessly fed a buch of useless commands because we needed Him to be an ultimate blood sacrifice. And if Jesus is a literal blood sacrifice, then where is the literal stone alter?

Peace 



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 4:42am

If Jesus was just a man, then he couldn't die for our sins. But he is God.  A man can only pay for the sins of another man.  Who will pay the penalty of the sins of all men?  Only God, who is infinite, can pay an infinite penalty.  Only God, in the Person of Christ, could be a propitiation for the sins of the whole world.  All men are under the curse of physical and spiritual death if they are sinners, only Chirst can take that curse upon himself, and did so at the cross that those who trust in him will never perish but have eternal life.

Sin must be atoned for. God can't just hand wave it away because, while he is merciful, he is just. So he had to create a way for sins to be paid for by a substitute. HIMSELF. As the Judge and the Victim of the crime (sin) he was in the unique position to forgive the sin by taking the penalty upon himself in the person of Christ.

Substitutionary atonement was instituted in the OT by the animal sacrifices. But the animals did not actually take the sin away. They were a metaphor that helped the Israelites understand that something precious would be required to forgive their sins, the Messiah who would come one day would be the one who forgave the sins by his ultimate sacrifice.

Messiah Jesus had to be our kinsmen redeemer. The bible treats sin as a debt that must be paid.

A kinsman redeemer was a close relative that could pay the debt of a relative that would otherwise be sold into slavery or be impoverished (Leviticus 25, Ruth). The redeemer had to be a close relative, not in debt himself, willing to redeem, and the redemption was completed when the price was fully paid.

Thus Messiah Jesus could be our redeemer because he was one of us (and God too) and because he had no sin debt of his own. He sacrificed himself willingly for his relatives (us) so that we might be free of our debt of sin.


Annie



-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 6:12am

Originally posted by Andalus

But Christians are unable to live a good life according to the laws of Gd, so they believe Gd was birthed through his mother to enter this world so He could die and "fulfill" the law, that way they could live according to the laws of man. So although Christians are responsible for sin, they are incapable of doing what is right and need Jesus as a sacrifice to serve as a "sin sacrifice" fo all future sins that have yet to be committed.

Who is capable of obeying God perfectly?  No one.

Originally posted by Andalus

Christians have to make up their own laws, mad made laws, because Gd's laws are irrelevant.  

Try living up to the commands of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.  These are my guidelines.

Originally posted by Andalus

So, yes Christians are responsible for sin, but they are incapable of follwing Gd's commands and require a "super sacrifice".

Who is capable of obeying God's commands perfectly?

Originally posted by Andalus

This verse does not saying anything about atoning for every sin within the same context as your belief that Jesus was a super "divine" sacrifice for sins including getting high, adultery, etc. Isaiah 53:12 does not state, or imply, that the suffering servant will be able to bear "sin", as in a "sin blood atonement" for crack heads or prostitutes. 

I beg your pardon?

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:


The penalty for sins was death.  God setup the sacrificial system as atonement for sins.  Repentance, prayer and sacrifices all went together.

Theological nonsense.

I doubt that the Jews would agree with you.

Originally posted by Andalus

Adam lived a long life, even after his expellation from the garden.

We are talking about spiritual death, not physical death.  If Adam had been allowed to stay in the garden, he would have had access to the Tree of Life.  God banished him so eventually he died a physical and a spiritual death.

Originally posted by Andalus

Moses wondered the desert for 40 years even after his "transgression".

So?  What is your point?

Originally posted by Andalus

Please show me a single example from the Hebrew Scriptures where someone died from committing a sin. Do not confuse this with a punishment for a sin, such as adultery.

We are talking about a spiritual death.

Originally posted by Andalus

The sacrificial system can expiate sin, but it cannot expiate every type of sin. So yes, a blood sacrifice and sincere repentance all go hand in hand, but a blood sacrifice could not expiate some sin which sincere repentance could, or a wheat offering was equal to a blood sacrifice. They were interchangable, but none relied on the other as you are trying to allude. 

The point is that the sacrificial system was an atonement for sins.  Notice that God set-up this system.  Why did He do that if "sincere" repentance and prayer were enough?

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:


You can rely on the mercy of God that He will forgive your sins, but you have not assurance that He will do so. 

Yes, this is why we all need the church and Jesus. This was the yoke placed around the hapless ex pagan gentiles' necks. In fact, you can rely on the Mercy of Gd, and you do have the ability to do as Gd commanded.

No one can obey God perfectly.  Moses and David couldn't.  And, yes, that is why we need Messiah Jesus.

 

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:

 We do not keep God's laws perfectly, we do not worship Him perfectly, we are human and we sin and there is no doubt about it.

There is only doubt from Christians who believe they are incapable of having a relaitonship with Gd unless he birthed Himself and then died, so that all of the future sins they will commit because they have no ability to do so can be forgiven.

When I said "we" I meant all people on the earth, including Muslims.

Originally posted by Andalus

1) Moses would be considered a heretic, else your church has told you a lie. We are capable of following the commands of Gd, and no one but you can do it.

Moses was not a heretic.  He was a human being and even he sinned.

Originally posted by Andalus

Deut 30:11-16

30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart,
that thou mayest do it.

30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil,

30:16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. 

God is saying to follow His commands.  There is nothing here saying that anyone could do it.

Scriptures in context:

30:11 This mandate that I am prescribing to you today is not too http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=5&CHAPTER=30#C4455 - - not in heaven , so [that you should] say, 'Who shall go up to heaven and bring it to us so that we can hear it and keep it?' 30:13 It is not over the sea so [that you should] say, 'Who will cross the sea and get if for us, so that we will be able to hear it and keep it?' 30:14 It is something that is very close to you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can keep it.


Free Choice
30:15 See! Today I have set before you [a free choice] between life and good [on one side], and death and evil [on the other]. 30:16 I have commanded you today to love God your Lord, to walk in His paths, and to keep His commandments, decrees and laws. You will then survive and flourish, and God your Lord will bless you in the land that you are about to occupy. 30:17 But if your heart turns aside and you do not listen, you will be led astray to bow down to foreign gods and worship them. 30:18 I am warning you today, that [if you do that] you will be utterly exterminated. You will not last very long in the land which you are crossing the Jordan and coming to occupy. 30:19 I call http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=5&CHAPTER=30#C4457 - - This is your sole means of survival and long life when you dwell in the land that God swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, [promising] that He would give it to them.

Starting with verse 17 God tells them what will happen if they do not follow His commands.  He must have believed that man had a problem following His commands and we do.

Originally posted by Andalus

]

Who would you believe since you claim your bible is the word of Gd, Moses, or your church? Moses, or second century ex-pagans who neither knew Jesus or Gd?

You know, Andalus, you are going to have to be a little more polite and show more respect for my religion.  Please try to do that.  Thank you.

Originally posted by Andalus

]

2) Job kept the commands perfectly. Once again, your church has told you a falsehood (pious fraud). How else would you explain this if not an act of piouse fraud?

"If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse."—Job 9:20.

Job wavered in his confidence that God was for him. In defending himself against the bad theology of Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, he said things about God that were not true. He began to insist on his own righteousness at the expense of God's justice.

Lessons in Job:

1. Believe with all your heart in the absolute sovereignty of God. Pray that God would give you that conviction.

2. Believe with all your heart that everything he does is right and good. Pray that God will give you that assurance.

3. Repent of all the times you have questioned God or found fault with him in the way he has treated you. Pray that God would humble you to see these murmurings as sinful.

4. Be satisfied with the holy will of God and do not murmur.

5.  Don't blame God for the ill that befalls you.

 

Originally posted by Andalus

]

Annie2 wrote:


I believe that God saw this and provided a way so that we all could live with Him in the thereafter and that was the sacrifice of Messiah Jesus.

Annie

So why did Gd not tell Moses that His system was not complete and they really needed the second part of the triune to come to earth and die? Deut 30:14 says, in no uncertain form, that we can do what we are told, and we are not incapable automatons who Gd mindlessly fed a buch of useless commands because we needed Him to be an ultimate blood sacrifice. And if Jesus is a literal blood sacrifice, then where is the literal stone alter?

The specific laws in the Torah regarding the sprinkling of the blood on the altar had to do with the sacrifices offered on that altar.  At other times in the Hebrew Scriptures blood and sacrifices were offered in different ways and in different places.  More importantly, there is obviously no connection between the laws for offering animal sacrifices on the altar and the Jewish teaching that the death of the righteous atones.  Therefore, the blood of those righteous martyrs did not have to be poured out on the altar of Jerusalem.

God accepted blood sacrifices that were not offered up on the altar in Jerusalem (see e.g. 2 Sam 24:17-25 and 1 Kings 18:31-39.)

If Messiah Jesus' blood had been shed on the Temple altar in Jerusalem according to the Torah's requirements, would you then believe in him?

Annie



-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 9:05am

Dear All,

I just wish to clarify a few points.

Islam in itself does not have any Messiahs. It recognises all the Messiahs (The anointed ones) of the Jews or simply put the prophets to the Jews.

Qur'aan uses the the term Maseeh in Arabic and that is the equivalent to the Messiah of the Jews. Qur'aan uses the term of Maseeh only for Jesus, as he was known to his people. Qur'aan mentions his name as Jesus Maseeh, the son of Maryam and in Arabic "Maseeh Essabna Maryam", clearly calls him an excellent and devout servant and prophet of God Almighty, sent to Bani Israel (Children of Israel a fondly term for the Jews).

However, Qur'aan does not call him King Messiah or any special Messiah. The majority of Muslim scholars and most Muslims believe that Jesus will come back to clarify what he really was. Muslim scholars quote a verse in Qur'aan and say that it possibly points to the Second Coming of Jesus, wheras in fact it does not point to his Second Coming.

However, there is no clear verse that says, "Jesus will come back". If coming back of Jesus were serious and true and God wanted that, then God would have said so very clearly in the Final Scripture, Qur'aan, instead of hinting.

The subject of Hadith has lots of stories about this Second Coming. Mine is only a personal view. I base my view on the verses that say "Muhammad is the Final Prophet or the Final Stamp/Seal of Prophets" and God says,"The religion of God is complete now."

Jesus himself confirms in the Bible that he accomplished the task given to him, meaning he completed his job. Jesus had completed the Injeel that was given to him. The Injeel in reality means what he preached or taught and the knowledge that he had came from or was given to him by God Almighty. I don't see why should Jesus return? Jesus in Islam was a prophet and no one is supposed to come after Muhammad.



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 9:10am

Annie,

Did you read my post that I wrote on Paul making the Offering. I wrote it this morning but I have forgotten where I posted that.

Please read ACTS 21:1-26 and specially 21:26 and you will realise that Paul did sacrifise and made the animal Offering, as recommended by the Elders and James of the Jerusalem Church, even though Jesus was long gone.

It means the Elders in the Jerusalem Church were going on with the Law and Sacrifices or Offerings were ordered by them, otherwise why would have they sent Paul with the four men to purify and make the Offerings?

What do you think? I think the Law stands. You still have to carry out Animal sacrifice, Annie!

 



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 9:41am
Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Originally posted by Andalus

But Christians are unable to live a good life according to the laws of Gd, so they believe Gd was birthed through his mother to enter this world so He could die and "fulfill" the law, that way they could live according to the laws of man. So although Christians are responsible for sin, they are incapable of doing what is right and need Jesus as a sacrifice to serve as a "sin sacrifice" fo all future sins that have yet to be committed.

Who is capable of obeying God perfectly?  No one.

According to Moses, we all are. And according to the book of Job, Job was.

 

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Christians have to make up their own laws, mad made laws, because Gd's laws are irrelevant.  

Try living up to the commands of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.  These are my guidelines.

Jesus did not give commands. The commands are found in the Torah. Moses state that you are capable of doing them. Do you trust Moses or your preacher at sunday school?

Originally posted by Annie2

 

Originally posted by Andalus

So, yes Christians are responsible for sin, but they are incapable of follwing Gd's commands and require a "super sacrifice".

Who is capable of obeying God's commands perfectly?

Job. And all of us as this is what Moses stated. Was Moses lying?

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

This verse does not saying anything about atoning for every sin within the same context as your belief that Jesus was a super "divine" sacrifice for sins including getting high, adultery, etc. Isaiah 53:12 does not state, or imply, that the suffering servant will be able to bear "sin", as in a "sin blood atonement" for crack heads or prostitutes. 

I beg your pardon?

The verse you quoted does not refer to someone dying for every sin in terms of "expiating" the sin. Sins such as getting high and adultery are between the sinner and Gd.

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:


The penalty for sins was death.  God setup the sacrificial system as atonement for sins.  Repentance, prayer and sacrifices all went together.

Theological nonsense.

I doubt that the Jews would agree with you.

Ask them who died from committing a sin?

 

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Adam lived a long life, even after his expellation from the garden.

We are talking about spiritual death, not physical death.  If Adam had been allowed to stay in the garden, he would have had access to the Tree of Life.  God banished him so eventually he died a physical and a spiritual death.

Interesting, so the death of Jesus only took care of the spiritual effects of Adam's sin, soemthing we cannot see or feel on know about, but it did not seem to work on the "physical" aspect, meaning we still die, women still feel the pains of child birth, we still have to work and sweat from our brow in order to eat. Pretty convenient Annie! The death of Jesus worked but it only worked on the "unseen" spiriutal death, and absolutely nothing changed with the physical effects of being banished from eden. And we have the church to trust on all this. I am convinced! See you in church!

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Moses wondered the desert for 40 years even after his "transgression".

So?  What is your point?

He was not dead. And nothing from the physical effects of the sin of Adam has changed since Jesus has come and gone.

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Please show me a single example from the Hebrew Scriptures where someone died from committing a sin. Do not confuse this with a punishment for a sin, such as adultery.

We are talking about a spiritual death.

Ah! Of course. 

Originally posted by Annie2

 

Originally posted by Andalus

The sacrificial system can expiate sin, but it cannot expiate every type of sin. So yes, a blood sacrifice and sincere repentance all go hand in hand, but a blood sacrifice could not expiate some sin which sincere repentance could, or a wheat offering was equal to a blood sacrifice. They were interchangable, but none relied on the other as you are trying to allude. 

The point is that the sacrificial system was an atonement for sins.  Notice that God set-up this system.  Why did He do that if "sincere" repentance and prayer were enough?

 

Your question is a "complex" question. This means you have unproven or stated assumption buried in it.

The sacrificial system only covered some sins, not all sin. Those not covered could be expiated through means that did not require blood. That is simply the way it is. The messianic verses talk of a new period when the sacrifical system will come back (which is problematic for the "replacement theology" of the church).

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:


You can rely on the mercy of God that He will forgive your sins, but you have not assurance that He will do so. 

Yes, this is why we all need the church and Jesus. This was the yoke placed around the hapless ex pagan gentiles' necks. In fact, you can rely on the Mercy of Gd, and you do have the ability to do as Gd commanded.

No one can obey God perfectly.  Moses and David couldn't.  And, yes, that is why we need Messiah Jesus.

Job did. And Moses stated otherwise. Please refer to your bible.

Originally posted by annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

1) Moses would be considered a heretic, else your church has told you a lie. We are capable of following the commands of Gd, and no one but you can do it.

Moses was not a heretic.  He was a human being and even he sinned.

 

Irrelevant. Moses was either lying or the church is wrong, or the Torah is innacruate. It is that simple. Which is it?

Originally posted by Annie2

 

Originally posted by Andalus

Deut 30:11-16

30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart,
that thou mayest do it.

30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil,

30:16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. 

God is saying to follow His commands.  There is nothing here saying that anyone could do it.

Actually there is. Pretty "black and white" and unambiguous:

30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

What part of "thou myest do it" is unclear?


Originally posted by Annie2

Scriptures in context:

30:11 This mandate that I am prescribing to you today is not too http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=5&CHAPTER=30#C4455 - - not in heaven , so [that you should] say, 'Who shall go up to heaven and bring it to us so that we can hear it and keep it?' 30:13 It is not over the sea so [that you should] say, 'Who will cross the sea and get if for us, so that we will be able to hear it and keep it?' 30:14 It is something that is very close to you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can keep it.


Free Choice
30:15 See! Today I have set before you [a free choice] between life and good [on one side], and death and evil [on the other]. 30:16 I have commanded you today to love God your Lord, to walk in His paths, and to keep His commandments, decrees and laws. You will then survive and flourish, and God your Lord will bless you in the land that you are about to occupy. 30:17 But if your heart turns aside and you do not listen, you will be led astray to bow down to foreign gods and worship them. 30:18 I am warning you today, that [if you do that] you will be utterly exterminated. You will not last very long in the land which you are crossing the Jordan and coming to occupy. 30:19 I call http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=5&CHAPTER=30#C4457 - - This is your sole means of survival and long life when you dwell in the land that God swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, [promising] that He would give it to them.

Starting with verse 17 God tells them what will happen if they do not follow His commands.  He must have believed that man had a problem following His commands and we do.

Funny. You stated the verse should be put in context, but you did nothing but repaste them, and the verses that appear after the last verse I pasted. This does not give a new "context", and the final verses do not invalidate what Moses said.

Gd stating a punishment for not obeying the law does not invalidate the the statement that we are capable of following the law. Verse 17 simply states the punishment for not keeping them. Laws can carry a punishment for disobeying it, not a prediction or a prophecy that it will not be obeyed. Your reasonign is like this: The law states that the speed limit is 60 MPH, and if you break this spead, you will be fined. This is not a prophecy that you will break the law, it is a statement of the punishmnet for breaking it.

Accroding to your line of reasoning, Gd would be crazy, giving a law, having His prophet tell us that we can follow it, and then implying that we cannot follow it.

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

]

Who would you believe since you claim your bible is the word of Gd, Moses, or your church? Moses, or second century ex-pagans who neither knew Jesus or Gd?

You know, Andalus, you are going to have to be a little more polite and show more respect for my religion.  Please try to do that.  Thank you.

I hardly see any rudeness.

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

]

2) Job kept the commands perfectly. Once again, your church has told you a falsehood (pious fraud). How else would you explain this if not an act of piouse fraud?

"If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse."—Job 9:20.

9:19 If it is for strength, behold He is mighty" But if it is for justice, who can who can plead on my behalf?

19:20 Even if I am righteous, my mouth would condemn me. [If] I am innocent, it would pronouce me crooked.

19:21 I am innocent, yet I cannot know rest! I am disgusted with my life!

The verse you quoted is a statement to Bildad concerning the idea of "contending with Gd". This is not an admission of not following the commands of Gd. You are attempting to twist a verse from its actual context.

1:1 states that Job was an upright man who feared Gd and shunned evil.

19:21 states that Job could not fathom contending with Gd.

Originally posted by Annie2

Job wavered in his confidence that God was for him. In defending himself against the bad theology of Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, he said things about God that were not true. He began to insist on his own righteousness at the expense of God's justice.

Irrelevant.

This does not chage the fact that we was a righteous man who followed His commands. Job's error was not in following the law, but in his derivation of philosophical matters regarding the nature of Gd. The point of the thread is that Job clearly followed the commands of Gd. 

 

Originally posted by Annie2

Lessons in Job:

1. Believe with all your heart in the absolute sovereignty of God. Pray that God would give you that conviction.

2. Believe with all your heart that everything he does is right and good. Pray that God will give you that assurance.

3. Repent of all the times you have questioned God or found fault with him in the way he has treated you. Pray that God would humble you to see these murmurings as sinful.

4. Be satisfied with the holy will of God and do not murmur.

5.  Don't blame God for the ill that befalls you.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

Is completely deflects from the topic. You claim no one can follow the commands correctly, yet Job clearly did. The error you are talking about is not about following the law. It is about the nature of Gd.

Originally posted by Annie2

 

Originally posted by Andalus

]

Annie2 wrote:


I believe that God saw this and provided a way so that we all could live with Him in the thereafter and that was the sacrifice of Messiah Jesus.

Annie

So why did Gd not tell Moses that His system was not complete and they really needed the second part of the triune to come to earth and die? Deut 30:14 says, in no uncertain form, that we can do what we are told, and we are not incapable automatons who Gd mindlessly fed a buch of useless commands because we needed Him to be an ultimate blood sacrifice. And if Jesus is a literal blood sacrifice, then where is the literal stone alter?

The specific laws in the Torah regarding the sprinkling of the blood on the altar had to do with the sacrifices offered on that altar.

Yes, and that alter was required for a blood sacrifice that could expiate sin. Your theology points to Jesus as being a blood sacrifice, a literal one, just as the sacrifices that appear in the Torah. These sacrifces required a stone alter.

Originally posted by Annie2

  At other times in the Hebrew Scriptures blood and sacrifices were offered in different ways and in different places. 

We are not talking about other times, we are talking about the time during the temple, and we are talking about a blood sacrifice that expiates sin, according to the Torah.

Originally posted by Annie2

 

 More importantly, there is obviously no connection between the laws for offering animal sacrifices on the altar and the Jewish teaching that the death of the righteous atones.  Therefore, the blood of those righteous martyrs did not have to be poured out on the altar of Jerusalem.

I must have missed that teaching. Could you please explain the "Jewish" teaching of a person dying as a blood sacrifice to expiate sin? (sin including intentional and unintentional, adultery, etc)

Originally posted by Annie2

God accepted blood sacrifices that were not offered up on the altar in Jerusalem (see e.g. 2 Sam 24:17-25 and 1 Kings 18:31-39.)

 

2 Samuel 24:17-25 is a narrow exception and does not help your case:

1) It was pre temple.

2) Araunah's place as on Mt Moriah, the believed spot where Abraham had intended to sacrifice his son.

1 Kings 18:31-39

Another narrow exception that is not relevant to your claim.

1) This was not a sacrificial offering to expiate sin.

2) This was to contrast the offerings offered by the pagans, to show everyone who the true Gd was.

3) The site was of value, pre temple value. Beth-el was the site Jacob became Israel.

 

Originally posted by Annie2

If Messiah Jesus' blood had been shed on the Temple altar in Jerusalem according to the Torah's requirements, would you then believe in him?

Annie

What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?

If Gd stated these things, and addressed these issues, then it would be pluasable to believe that Gd came to earth and acted as a blood sacrifice, although odd given that it would still raise serious theological issues, such as why Gd needed to do all that in the first place?



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 3:21pm

"What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?"

God states numerous times that human sacrifice is an abomination and not of His command:

2 Kings 16:3 Instead, he followed the example of the kings of Israel, even sacrificing his own son in the fire. He imitated the detestable practices of the pagan nations the LORD had driven from the land ahead of the Israelites.

Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 20:2 “Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Deuteronomy 12:31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire

Deuteronomy 12:31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 6:56pm

Assalam Aleikum Sr.

You are absolutely in line and absolutely correct, and you saved Annie the time whi is no doubt looking through websites on the matter. Believe it or not, some sites, like Christian think tank point out that the prohibitions are against the sacrifice of children. As if this makes it ok to sacrifice humans as long as they are adults! Funny but true.

Originally posted by Mishmish

"What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?"

God states numerous times that human sacrifice is an abomination and not of His command:

2 Kings 16:3 Instead, he followed the example of the kings of Israel, even sacrificing his own son in the fire. He imitated the detestable practices of the pagan nations the LORD had driven from the land ahead of the Israelites.

Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 20:2 “Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Deuteronomy 12:31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire

Deuteronomy 12:31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 7:14am
Originally posted by Mishmish

"What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?"

God states numerous times that human sacrifice is an abomination and not of His command:

2 Kings 16:3 Instead, he followed the example of the kings of Israel, even sacrificing his own son in the fire. He imitated the detestable practices of the pagan nations the LORD had driven from the land ahead of the Israelites.

Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 20:2 “Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Deuteronomy 12:31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire

Deuteronomy 12:31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’


Making a sacrifice of a child is murder.  Jesus went to the cross willingly.  See the difference?

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 7:16am

Originally posted by BMZ

Annie,

Did you read my post that I wrote on Paul making the Offering. I wrote it this morning but I have forgotten where I posted that.

No, I didn't.

Originally posted by BMZ

Please read ACTS 21:1-26 and specially 21:26 and you will realise that Paul did sacrifise and made the animal Offering.

Have you ever heard of the Nazirite Vow?  Read up on it and you will understand how you have misinterpreted what is going on in verse 26.

Originally posted by BMZ

as recommended by the Elders and James of the Jerusalem Church, even though Jesus was long gone

Acts 26

17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/#fen-NKJV-27681c" title="See footnote c - c ] hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except [ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/#fen-NKJV-27684d" title="See footnote d - things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Originally posted by BMZ

It means the Elders in the Jerusalem Church were going on with the Law and Sacrifices or Offerings were ordered by them, otherwise why would have they sent Paul with the four men to purify and make the Offerings?

Nope.

Originally posted by BMZ

What do you think? I think the Law stands. You still have to carry out Animal sacrifice, Annie!

If you believe the Law still stands, then why don't Muslims offer sacrifices for forgiveness of sins?

James says,"Whoever keeps the whole Law but fails in one point of it is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10).

Annie



-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 8:58am

Annie,

From you: "If you believe the Law still stands, then why don't Muslims offer sacrifices for forgiveness of sins?"

We do that, Annie and we feed all the meat to the poor and needy or the starving ones. It is not the blood or flesh of the animals that reaches God Almighty. It is the obedience to God and God's Law that matters most. For us the law stands.



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 11:35am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

From you: "If you believe the Law still stands, then why don't Muslims offer sacrifices for forgiveness of sins?"

We do that, Annie and we feed all the meat to the poor and needy or the starving ones. It is not the blood or flesh of the animals that reaches God Almighty. It is the obedience to God and God's Law that matters most. For us the law stands.



Muslims sacrifice animals for forgiveness of sins?  I thought the only thing the Muslims needed to do besides believing in Allah and Muhammad plus the rituals, praying 5 times per day, etc., was to ask for forgiveness and God would give it.  You are saying that isn't true?

I am aware of the animal sacrifices during one of your festivals and that you give the meat to the poor, but I was not aware that Muslims sacrifice animals as atonement for sins.  Do you sprinkle the blood on an altar like the Jewish law says?

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 11:48am
<>
Originally posted by Mishmish

 

Annie wrote:

Mishmish wrote:

 

To believe that accepting Jesus as your salvation will immediately get you into heaven is to twist the scriptures into fallacy.

 

"How so?  This is what Jesus preached."

The Bible does state otherwise... in these passages it also states that Abraham's faith was perfected without accepting Jesus as his savior or God. 

Abraham was judged righteous before he did any good works.  He was judged righteous by faith.  His good works—agreeing to sacrifice Isaac—was the sign of his faith.

John 8:16 says--

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou are not yet fifty years old, and hast seen Abraham?”

Abraham also had faith in the coming Messiah Jesus.  Abraham saw the day of Christ Abraham rejoiced because he knew that Messiah Jesus was God's instrument in saving the whole world, him included.

Originally posted by Mishmish

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?  2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,  2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?  2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.  2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."  2:19 You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.  2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;  2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.  2:25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?  2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. 

I think this has been answered.  Faith comes first.  The proof of your faith is good works.

Annie

-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Originally posted by Mishmish

"What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?"

God states numerous times that human sacrifice is an abomination and not of His command:

2 Kings 16:3 Instead, he followed the example of the kings of Israel, even sacrificing his own son in the fire. He imitated the detestable practices of the pagan nations the LORD had driven from the land ahead of the Israelites.

Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 20:2 “Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Deuteronomy 12:31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire

Deuteronomy 12:31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’


Making a sacrifice of a child is murder.  Jesus went to the cross willingly.  See the difference?

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

Annie

Sure, Christians believe that human sacrifice is ok because the Hebrew Scriptures only specifically talk about children. This is the the same conclusion at christian think tank, from a piece that is meant to convince Jews that human sacrifces are ok.

Which actually does the opposite as it sounds extremely foolish.

Told you Mishmish where this was going.



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 12:17pm

Annie:

You stated that accepting Jesus as your salvation will get you into heaven, with or without good deeds.

This point of view has been stated here in this thread many times by Christians. That all you have to do is believe that Jesus is your savior and God incarnate and nothing else matters. This is simply not true, even by Biblical standards.

Let's read Genesis:

Genesis 22:9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.

22:10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

22:11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied.

22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

22:13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son.

22:14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

22:15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time

22:16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

22:17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,

22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

 



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 12:22pm

Annie wrote:

"Making a sacrifice of a child is murder.  Jesus went to the cross willingly.  See the difference?"

I was wondering about this passage? To whom was God incarnate calling, and in what way was he forsaken?

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

Annie wrote:

"Making a sacrifice of a child is murder.  Jesus went to the cross willingly.  See the difference?"

I was wondering about this passage? To whom was God incarnate calling, and in what way was he forsaken?

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"



The Father.  Read all of Psalm 22.  Interesting isn't it? This was a Psalm of David asking God why He has forsaken him.  Muslims tell me that God does not forsaken any prophet, yet David believed that He had.

Also, interesting is that Muslims do not believe that it was Jesus on the cross.  Does this mean that Allah put an innocent man on the cross and he is asking why?  A guility man would know why; a innocent man would question it.

How do you explain that?

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 3:08pm

No, actually Jesus was calling out, not David. Read the passage again.

You are answering a question with a question...

Who was Jesus calling out to? Himself?

And why would he feel himself forsaken by himself if he was a willing suicide?



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 19 June 2006 at 5:36am
Originally posted by Mishmish

No, actually Jesus was calling out, not David. Read the passage again.

You are answering a question with a question...

Who was Jesus calling out to? Himself?

And why would he feel himself forsaken by himself if he was a willing suicide?



Read Psalm 22, Mishmish.

1. For the conductor, on the ayeleth hashachar, a song of David.
2. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.
3. My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent.

It is David who is calling out.  Jesus called out to the Father.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/why_hast_thou_forsak en_me.shtml

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 19 June 2006 at 11:52am

What has Psalms to do with the question I asked? This is the passage I asked about?

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Who is the father?  Who is My God?



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 19 June 2006 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

What has Psalms to do with the question I asked? This is the passage I asked about?


Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 when he was on the cross.

Originally posted by Mishmish


Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Who is the father?  Who is My God?


I answered that one.  Jesus is calling out to the Father.  As a human God was Jesus' God.

Annie




-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 19 June 2006 at 12:28pm

"As a human God was Jesus' God"

So, Jesus wasn't God?



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 5:24am

A note for everyone:

Pslams 22 starts when David complains in great discouragement. This great discouragement is shown in 22:1-9 and after that David prays in great Distress. This great distress is shown in 22:10-22. Then comes Gratitude to God and this is shown in 22:23-32.

From Annie: "Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 when he was on the cross."

He was not quoting Psalm 22 at all and he did not have the Psalm or David in his mind. It was the excruciating pain and torture that was killing him and he felt as if God had abandoned him. 

He wanted to be saved but there was no sign of help from God. He felt let down by God and uttered that in sadness, despair and desperation, which is shown by the gospel writers.

It was a human cry calling Almighty God for help and rescue.  


 



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 7:27am

Jesus is one of the three entities of the triune Godhead, as has been explained numerous times here.  Jesus cried out on the cross in his human form....as any human would have done in similar circumstances.  And Jesus' death on the cross was MUCH MORE than just a physical death.

Jesus was forsaken on the cross because God in His nuclear reactor of holiness could not bear to look upon the sin that Jesus had taken into His flesh. In some mysterious way, without destroying the unity of the Trinity, at that moment a chasm occurred in the very nature of God as He found a way to do the unthinkable and deal with sin that simply could not exist within His nature.

As I have already said, Jesus' early death on the cross is a big clue that something else was going on than merely the physical death of the cross - the fact that Jesus was hanging on a cross was not the key issue - multitudes of people hung on crosses. No, the key event on the cross was Christ propitiating the wrath of God and experiencing all the torments of hell as He hung there in the dark, deserted by His God and bearing the full brunt of all the righteous hatred of God for sin.

Some would say "But where is the love of God?" I would reply it is precisely because of the love of God that He hates the cancer of sin so much. Sin destroys all that God made to be so precious. In fact, the Bible is clear that the most loving act ever committed was the death of Jesus for us.

John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends."

1 John 3:16 "By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us."

1 Corinthians 5:8-9 "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

God's Peace!



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 1:24pm

How could he be deserted by his God if he was God?

If Jesus was God, incarnate, then who was HIS God?

 

 

 



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 2:03pm

I am so sorry, Mishmish, you are unable to grasp the concept of the Holy Trinity, and I am doing such a poor job of trying to explain it to you.  The only way I can say it is that there are three different, and completely separate, "entities" who make up the Triune Godhead.  God "separated" himself from Jesus as Jesus was dying on the cross, because Jesus took on the sins of the world, the sins of every human being, upon himself....something God could not do.  Jesus took our sins and descended into the "under world" or Hell.  God is the Father, He is Jesus' Heavenly Father.  Yet, these three entities, the Holy Spirit included when speaking of the Trinity, form the Triune Godhead.  You have to understand the Trinity to understand anything else in Christianity.   It is a difficult concept to understand if you are not receptive to the many mysteries of God. 

(I hope I haven't confused you even more.)

God's Peace.



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

"As a human God was Jesus' God"

So, Jesus wasn't God?



No.  Try to think of it this way, Mishmish.  God tabernacled in the Temple.  In the same way, God tabernacled in the human body of Jesus.

The God Christians worship is the God who tabernacled in the Temple and in the human body of Messiah Jesus.  The Jews worshipped the God who tabernacled in the Temple.  It is the same God.

Jesus said that something greater than Solomon, something greater than Noah, something greater than the Temple is here.  What is greater than the Temple, but God Himself?

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by bmzsp

A note for everyone:

Pslams 22 starts when David complains in great discouragement. This great discouragement is shown in 22:1-9 and after that David prays in great Distress. This great distress is shown in 22:10-22. Then comes Gratitude to God and this is shown in 22:23-32.

From Annie: "Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 when he was on the cross."

He was not quoting Psalm 22 at all and he did not have the Psalm or David in his mind. It was the excruciating pain and torture that was killing him and he felt as if God had abandoned him. 

He wanted to be saved but there was no sign of help from God. He felt let down by God and uttered that in sadness, despair and desperation, which is shown by the gospel writers.

<>It was a human cry calling Almighty God for help and rescue. 

 


You are wrong.


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

How could he be deserted by his God if he was God?

<>If Jesus was God, incarnate, then who was HIS God?
 


Jesus was not deserted.  Jesus took all the sins of the world upon him at the cross.  God cannot look at sin.  Jesus paid for all of our sins on the cross, yours and mine.

But God raised Jesus from the dead which means that God vindicated all the claims that Jesus made.

As a human the Father was His God; as God incarnate the Father was the source of life for the Son because all came to the Son via the Father.

When Jesus died he was cut off from his source of life.

Annie




-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 4:33pm

"Jesus was not deserted.  Jesus took all the sins of the world upon him at the cross.  God cannot look at sin.  Jesus paid for all of our sins on the cross, yours and mine."

But, Jesus is God. How could God take all of the sins of the world if He cannot look at sin?

Actually, how can God not look at sin? How can God have any weakness at all?

"But God raised Jesus from the dead which means that God vindicated all the claims that Jesus made."

Perhaps. But God also raised Lazarus from the dead, so is Lazarus also God?

"As a human the Father was His God; as God incarnate the Father was the source of life for the Son because all came to the Son via the Father."

Doesn't all life come from God, therefore making everything come to all creation via God?

Don't we all die if we are cut off from our source of life?

So, you say that Jesus is God, except that he isn't God as a human, although he is God incarnate, but God was his God because he was human, but he was still God?

 



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 6:16pm

Dear Mishmish:

Three Persons or Three Gods?
 
St. Patrick used the analogy of a shamrock to explain the Holy Trinity when converting the Celtic peoples. Just as in a shamrock there are three leaflets but one leaf, so in the Trinity there are Three Divine Persons but one God. When we ask the question, “What is God?” we are attempting to define His nature, which is God. When we ask “Who is God?” we are attempting to know the person and could get one of three answers: Father, Son or Holy Spirit. God is not God apart from the Three Divine Persons Who make up the Godhead, yet each of the divine persons completely possess the nature of God. They do not share the attributes of God in the sense of “taking turns”: one using perfect love, another using perfect mercy, etc. Nor are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simply ways in which God shows Himself. All three Persons of the Trinity are distinct, eternal, and fully God.

How, then, does this not add up to three gods? The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three separate gods because “the only real distinction between them lies solely in the relationships which relate them to one another” (Catechism, no. 155). “ ‘While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.’ ‘Indeed everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship’” (Catechism, no. 255, citing Councils of Toledo XI [675] and Florence [1442]). Thus in God there is one divine substance (essence, nature), equally possessed by three distinct, divine Persons, whose distinction as Persons lies in the relationship of each to the others.

We often have difficulty with the idea of the Trinity because, as rational thinkers, we like to see everything as an equation. Three persons cannot equal one God. The equation does not add up, but God is not an equation and the Three Persons do equal one God. We struggle with this truth because the concept of three persons in one nature is quite beyond our experience. As St. Augustine pointed out, trying to contain this infinite mystery within our finite minds is like trying to pour the ocean into a seashell. We could not have arrived at this truth by human reason alone; it had to be revealed to us supernaturally by God.

God's Peace.

 



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 6:33pm

Well, if all three are fully God, then how could Jesus be praying to God the father? How could Jesus have been forsaken by Himself.

If all three are fully God, then why would it be necassary for there to be any type of outside communication between them? They are fully God, Omniscient.

No matter what analogies you try to use to explain the trinity, it just doesn't make sense, especially in light of the scriptures.

They are three distinct beings, but they are all fully God. If they are all fully God, then they must have all of the attributes of God. They would be Omnipotent, Omniscient... How then could one pray to the other? How could one fill the other, as in the Holy Spirit? Since they are all fully God, each would already be filled. There would be nothing that the other could offer that they didn't already have.

So, how could you ever say Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit, went into the desert to pray to God and was tempted?



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 2:58am

Annie,

From me: "Pslams 22 starts when David complains in great discouragement. This great discouragement is shown in 22:1-9 and after that David prays in great Distress. This great distress is shown in 22:10-22. Then comes Gratitude to God and this is shown in 22:23-32."

Have you really read The Jewish Scriptures well? I strongly recommend reading the Jewish Scriptures according to the Masoretic text, which is considered the best. Christian Old Testament will not explain well. 

You said I am wrong. Is the above wrong or are you talking about my comment? Where am I wrong?

The story does not blend at all, whether he was deserted, left to die or he was sacrifised so that he could be resurrected.

We have already discussed that it was no sacrifice because if it were a true sacrifice, Jesus should have died never to rise again and should not have been resurrected! Knowing that one could get up anytime within 6-12 hours or may be a little bit more, was no scarifice. 



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 5:36am
Originally posted by Mishmish

Well, if all three are fully God, then how could Jesus be praying to God the father? How could Jesus have been forsaken by Himself.

If all three are fully God, then why would it be necassary for there to be any type of outside communication between them? They are fully God, Omniscient.

No matter what analogies you try to use to explain the trinity, it just doesn't make sense, especially in light of the scriptures.

They are three distinct beings, but they are all fully God. If they are all fully God, then they must have all of the attributes of God. They would be Omnipotent, Omniscient... How then could one pray to the other? How could one fill the other, as in the Holy Spirit? Since they are all fully God, each would already be filled. There would be nothing that the other could offer that they didn't already have.

So, how could you ever say Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit, went into the desert to pray to God and was tempted?



Mishmish, you need to study the Trinity.  You can find many explanations on the Internet that will help you.  All of your questions should have been answered while you were still a Christian.  Someone let you down.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 5:37am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

From me: "Pslams 22 starts when David complains in great discouragement. This great discouragement is shown in 22:1-9 and after that David prays in great Distress. This great distress is shown in 22:10-22. Then comes Gratitude to God and this is shown in 22:23-32."

Have you really read The Jewish Scriptures well? I strongly recommend reading the Jewish Scriptures according to the Masoretic text, which is considered the best. Christian Old Testament will not explain well. 

You said I am wrong. Is the above wrong or are you talking about my comment? Where am I wrong?

The story does not blend at all, whether he was deserted, left to die or he was sacrifised so that he could be resurrected.

We have already discussed that it was no sacrifice because if it were a true sacrifice, Jesus should have died never to rise again and should not have been resurrected! Knowing that one could get up anytime within 6-12 hours or may be a little bit more, was no scarifice. 



Yes, I read the Hebrew Scriptures.  The ones the Jews read.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 10:10am

Annie:

All of my questions could not be answered while I was still a Christian. No one can answer these questions with any type of logic. Even the most knowledgeable theologian will eventually say it comes down to faith and it is a mystery that humans can not understand.

Yet, the trinity does not exist in any of the scriptures. Why should anyone have faith in something that does not even have a scriptural basis, much less makes no logical sense?

If God never stated there was a trinity, why try so hard to validate one?



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 10:28am

The word "trinity" does not appear in the bible, but the description of it is there:

1 John 5:7 (Johannine Comma)

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The passage is called the Johannine Comma and is not found in the majority of Greek manuscripts. [1] However, the verse is a wonderful testimony to the Heavenly Trinity and should be maintained in our English versions, not only because of its doctrinal significance but because of the external and internal evidence that testify to its authenticity.

God's Peace.



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Patty

 

The passage is called the Johannine Comma and is not found in the majority of Greek manuscripts.

This is one of the many corruptions.  If its not in the Greek...then its not there.  Adding later only makes it a departure from the original.

Howevery, the word ONE could be translated a number of ways.  One body, One Soul, One Purpose.  Unified.  That does not mean it HAS to be that they are ONE being in three bodies. 

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This could just as easily read. 

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are unified."

Since it doesn't appear in the Greek, then there is no way to really say. 

 



-------------


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by Patty

 

The passage is called the Johannine Comma and is not found in the majority of Greek manuscripts.

This is one of the many corruptions.  If its not in the Greek...then its not there.  Adding later only makes it a departure from the original.

Howevery, the word ONE could be translated a number of ways.  One body, One Soul, One Purpose.  Unified.  That does not mean it HAS to be that they are ONE being in three bodies. 

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This could just as easily read. 

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are unified."

Since it doesn't appear in the Greek, then there is no way to really say. 

 



It is not a "corruption" Angela.  It is called a "gloss."  A gloss is when a someone wrote in the margins and the scibe thought it was supposed to be part of the text.  The Muslim scribes had the same problem so they forbad anyone to include glosses in the text.  The Johannine Comma is not necessary to support the Trinity.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 6:33pm

It's Greek, Angela:

Internal Evidence: The structure of the Comma is certainly Johannine in style. John is noted for referring to Christ as "the Word." If 1 John 5:7 were an interpretation of verse eight, as some have suggested, than we would expect the verse to use "Son" instead of "Word." However, the verse uses the Greek word logos, which is uniquely in the style of John and provides evidence of its genuineness. Also, we find John drawing parallels between the Trinity and what they testify (1 John 4:13-14). Therefore, it comes as no surprise to find a parallel of witnesses containing groups of three, one heavenly and one earthly.

The strongest evidence, however, is found in the Greek text itself. Looking at 1 John 5:8, there are three nouns which, in Greek, stand in the neuter (Spirit, water, and blood). However, they are followed by a participle that is masculine. The Greek phrase here is oi marturountes (who bare witness). Those who know the Greek language understand this to be poor grammar if left to stand on its own. Even more noticeably, verse six has the same participle but stands in the neuter (Gk.: to marturoun). Why are three neuter nouns supported with a masculine participle? The answer is found if we include verse seven. There we have two masculine nouns (Father and Son) followed by a neuter noun (Spirit). The verse also has the Greek masculine participle oi marturountes. With this clause introducing verse eight, it is very proper for the participle in verse eight to be masculine, because of the masculine nouns in verse seven. But if verse seven were not there it would become improper Greek grammar.

God's Peace!



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 9:17am

Dear Mishmish,

Since you were a Christian for many years, you know then that a lot of the Christian doctrine is taken by faith, and perhaps this is one of those teachings which Catholics and Christians must take by faith.  I know Muslims must have great faith in Islam too.  Isn't that so?

Peace to You Mishmish.



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 11:51am

Dear Patty:

Muslims have faith in God. Islam is how we show our faith.

But we must also use the faculties that God gave us to reason. If the Quran states that there is only One God, and a person tells me God is three, then I will believe the Quran.

Throughout the scriptures, the common denominator is that there is only One God. This message is very clear. No where in the scriptures, none of the Prophets or Messengers of God have ever stated that God is a trinity. However, all of the Prophets and Messengers have stated that there is One God and we should not associate others with God. Jesus never stated he was God.

So, if you have faith in the trinity and that Jesus is God, where are you placing this faith. On the actual Word of God, as sent to us through his Prophets and Messengers? On the actual words of Jesus, who never claimed to be God?



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

Dear Patty:

Muslims have faith in God. Islam is how we show our faith.


Christians have faith in God.  Christianity is how we show our faith.

Originally posted by Mishmish


But we must also use the faculties that God gave us to reason. If the Quran states that there is only One God, and a person tells me God is three, then I will believe the Quran.


There is only one God.  Christians do not believe in three Gods.  The Qur'an and Christianity and Judaism agree on this point.

<>
Originally posted by Mishmish


Throughout the scriptures, the common denominator is that there is only One God. This message is very clear. No where in the scriptures, none of the Prophets or Messengers of God have ever stated that God is a trinity. However, all of the Prophets and Messengers have stated that there is One God and we should not associate others with God. Jesus never stated he was God.


There is only one God.  God can do anything.  Even that one God can incarnate a human and still be only one God.

Originally posted by Mishmish


So, if you have faith in the trinity and that Jesus is God, where are you placing this faith. On the actual Word of God, as sent to us through his Prophets and Messengers? On the actual words of Jesus, who never claimed to be God?


Jesus made claims that only God can make.  He said he was greater than the Temple.  Who is greater than the Temple but God?  He claimed to be able to forgive sins.  Who can forgive sins but God?  He by-passed the Temple system of animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.  Who can by-pass that system but God?

The Jews of Jesus' day understood that he was claiming to be God.  How can you disregard that fact?

Jesus was asked by Pilate:  "You are a king, then?"

Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king.  In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this reason I came into the world, to testify to the truth.  Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

If you can't believe that Jesus is the incarnate Word of God, then at least consider that he was who he said he was, a King, the King of the Jews, the Messiah, the Messiah that all of the prophets spoke of.

Annie




-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 4:00pm
Where are the Gospels of Jesus?

-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 3:35am

Annie:

From you: There is only one God.  Christians do not believe in three Gods.  The Qur'an and Christianity and Judaism agree on this point.

That is a very good statement.

From you, Annie: Even that one God can incarnate a human and still be only one God. (Note: I have made some of your words appear in bold)

You have a serious problem here, Annie. Let me say that you do not appear to be sure who incarnated who, according to the Christian theology.

According to Christian theology, the Incarnation is the embodiment of God the Son in human flesh as Jesus Christ.

Would you deny the above statement?

Please read the above very carefully. That is why John wrote the last of the four gospels with "the most innovative opening" to fit in the Son of God as God the Son. I am sure you will understand where I am coming from!  Keep in mind that there were no gospels before Paul's Letters!  Paul was "the Gospel".

I am sure you will not challenge the statement that I wrote above in bold black letters. You also know that according to John, God the son was the Word with God before God and the Word had no body. thus God the Son incarnated or was made to incarnate in the body of Jesus, according to Christian beliefs.

This proves five points based on Christian theology:

1. God Almighty is One, was always One and will always remain One.

2. God Almighty, the God, YHVH, Yahweh did not incarnate Himself at all in the body of Jesus.

3. Jesus was never God Almighty for even the tiniest fraction of a millisecond.

4. Thus from the Christian point of view, whatever so-called claims Jesus made, were not made by God Almighty but only by God, the Son or the Word God.

5. According to Christianity, it thus confrims that there were at least two clear Gods before the arrival of Jesus. One, The Almighty God who did not Incarnate in anything at all and the other known as God the Son, who went in and incarnated the flesh of Jesus.

Hope this helped, I call this progress and I am sure you must have loved this post of mine.  

 



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 5:05am
Originally posted by Mishmish

Where are the Gospels of Jesus?


You will find Jesus Gospel or good news in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 5:07am

Originally posted by BMZ

From you: There is only one God.  Christians do not believe in three Gods.  The Qur'an and Christianity and Judaism agree on this point.

That is a very good statement.

I'm happy you liked it.  Is this news to you?

Originally posted by BMZ

From you, Annie: Even that one God can incarnate a human and still be only one God. (Note: I have made some of your words appear in bold)

You have a serious problem here, Annie. Let me say that you do not appear to be sure who incarnated who, according to the Christian theology.

There is no problem at all.  It was the Word of the one God who incarnated Jesus.

Originally posted by BMZ

According to Christian theology, the Incarnation is the embodiment of God the Son in human flesh as Jesus Christ.

The incarnation is the Word of God who became incarnate in Jesus.

John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

Originally posted by BMZ

Would you deny the above statement?

See my corrections above.

Originally posted by BMZ

Please read the above very carefully. That is why John wrote the last of the four gospels with "the most innovative opening" to fit in the Son of God as God the Son. I am sure you will understand where I am coming from! 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=4&verse=3&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 4:3
Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=4&verse=6&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 4:6
and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’and,‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=8&verse=29&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 8:29
And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=14&verse=33&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=26&verse=63&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 26:63
But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=40&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=43&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 27:43
He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=54&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 27:54
So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=1&verse=1&version=50&context=verse - Mark 1:1
[ John the Baptist Prepares the Way ] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=3&verse=11&version=50&context=verse - Mark 3:11
And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried out, saying, “You are the Son of God.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&verse=39&version=50&context=verse - Mark 15:39
So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, “Truly this Man was the Son of God!”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&verse=35&version=50&context=verse - Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&verse=3&version=50&context=verse - Luke 4:3
And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&verse=9&version=50&context=verse - Luke 4:9
Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&verse=41&version=50&context=verse - Luke 4:41
And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!” And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=22&verse=70&version=50&context=verse - Luke 22:70
Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”

Originally posted by BMZ

Keep in mind that there were no gospels before Paul's Letters! Paul was "the Gospel". 

You must not know much about early Christianity.  The Gospel of Jesus was preached orally by his disciples way before Paul's letters were written.  In fact, the disciples were orally preaching the Gospel before Paul came on board.  Paul's letters were written to specific churches.  There is no evidence that Paul's letters were circulated to any other churches during that period of time.

Originally posted by BMZ

I am sure you will not challenge the statement that I wrote above in bold black letters. You also know that according to John, God the son was the Word with God before God and the Word had no body. thus God the Son incarnated or was made to incarnate in the body of Jesus, according to Christian beliefs.

Sorry, I am not following you.

Originally posted by BMZ

This proves five points based on Christian theology:

1. God Almighty is One, was always One and will always remain One.

God is one God, yes.

Originally posted by BMZ

2. God Almighty, the God, YHVH, Yahweh did not incarnate Himself at all in the body of Jesus. 

Correct.  It was the Word of God that incarnated Jesus.  God Almighty is Father, Word/Son and Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by BMZ

3. Jesus was never God Almighty for even the tiniest fraction of a millisecond.

Correct.  Jesus is not the Father. 

Originally posted by BMZ

4. Thus from the Christian point of view, whatever so-called claims Jesus made, were not made by God Almighty but only by God, the Son or the Word God.

I am not following your logic.

Originally posted by BMZ

5. According to Christianity, it thus confrims that there were at least two clear Gods before the arrival of Jesus. One, The Almighty God who did not Incarnate in anything at all and the other known as God the Son, who went in and incarnated the flesh of Jesus. 

Where would you get that idea?

Originally posted by BMZ

Hope this helped, I call this progress and I am sure you must have loved this post of mine.

I hope I have cleared up your misunderstandings and that you loved my response.

Annie

 



-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 6:39am

Annie,

Is English your native language? I wrote my post in English. Please consult some learned Chrsitian scholar and show him/her my post. I don't think you have understood even a fraction of my post! If you are unable to comprehend my post, please skip and don't reply.

Now let me come to some of the the following quoted by you:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=4&verse=3&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 4:3
Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

By tempter, I believe, you are referring to Satan and he tempts and can only tempt humans. That confirms Jesus was just a human and I am sure you agree with that. Satan knew that Jesus was not really the Son of God. The Spirit led Jesus into Satan's hands for the test and trial by Satan. Jesus did not prove here that he was the Son of God. Instead the writer prepares the argument. Anyway who was there when all this happened?  

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=4&verse=6&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 4:6
and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’and,‘ In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

Well! Here again, Jesus did not prove that he was the Son of God. After all the Spirit wanted him to be tried and he had to prove that he was the Son of God, which he did not. There is nothing that suggests he proved anything but only quoted back Scripture to satan as if satan believed in the Scriptures.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=8&verse=29&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 8:29
And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Does it mean Jesus was supposed to come at a later date to torment them?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=14&verse=33&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”

That is not an act of worship.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=26&verse=63&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 26:63
But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”

Jesus kept silent while put under the oath. To be put someone under oath is a great stress and pressure on anyone. Jesus now is silent under the oath imposed and this confirms that on his own he never declared himself as the Son Of God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=40&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

He could not come down which proves he was just human and not divine or the Son of God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=43&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 27:43
He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

That does not confirm anything. How could have the High Priest of Jews say "let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&verse=54&version=50&context=verse - Matthew 27:54
So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

There is no recorded earthquake or damage mentioned in the history. What things did the unbelieving Centurions and others see happening? What would the pagan Centurions know about God and the Son Of God?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=1&verse=1&version=50&context=verse - Mark 1:1
[ John the Baptist Prepares the Way ] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

What way did John the Baptist prepare for him? The way was already prepared by God Almighty and the Angel had told Mary direct. How come nobody knew about that for thirty years?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=3&verse=11&version=50&context=verse - Mark 3:11
And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried out, saying, “You are the Son of God.”

How can unclean spirits fall down? They are not humans. Why would they call a man who came to torment them as the Son of God?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&verse=39&version=50&context=verse - Mark 15:39
So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, “Truly this Man was the Son of God!”

See my comment above.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&verse=35&version=50&context=verse - Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

How would you describe the Holy Spirit coming upon her and another, the power of the Highest overshadow her?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&verse=3&version=50&context=verse - Luke 4:3
And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”

Already done that!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&verse=9&version=50&context=verse - Luke 4:9
Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here.

Already done that!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&verse=41&version=50&context=verse - Luke 4:41
And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!” And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.

When the demons said,"You are the Christ, the Son of God", why did he rebuke them? I see only on ereason for rebuking them and it means he was not the Son of God or else why would he rebuke. If he were, he would have appreciated them. Annie, do you believe the demons were also Jewish?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=22&verse=70&version=50&context=verse - Luke 22:70
Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”

He said that to irritate and mock them and people took it seriously! If Jesus were really the Son of God, nobody would have been able to touch him, Annie.



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 10:10am
BMZ,

I answered your questions as you asked them.  I can recommend some websites and books for you to read that might help you understand better.

Did you at least understand this part?



You must not know much about early Christianity.  The Gospel of Jesus was preached orally by his disciples way before Paul's letters were written.  In fact, the disciples were orally preaching the Gospel before Paul came on board.  Paul's letters were written to specific churches.  There is no evidence that Paul's letters were circulated to any other churches during that period of time.


Also remember this.  There were hundreds of people if not thousands who said I am God. It wasn't uncommon or unusual. Caesar claimed to be God--most folks just thought they were crazy and basically harmless. Jesus on the other hand used the personal name of the Jewish God. Their reaction make it clear they (Jews) knew exactly what he was saying.

Annie


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 10:44am

Mishmish said this:

"and a person tells me God is three,"

No, you are not understanding it......it is a difficult doctrine to understand.  My priest even said "when you really understand how to explain the Trinity, please come tell me so I can explain it. 

We only believe in ONE God, Mishmish.  Here it is from the Creed which we recite at every Mass.  It is the very basis of everything we (Catholics) believe in our faith:

"We believe in ONE GOD,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN."

We do TRULY believe in only one God...this is our profession of faith as Catholics, and many Protestant denominations say the same Creed. 

Peace be with you......



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Muslima
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 11:35am

Yes, but there is still the trinity really.

Personally, I have never considered Christianity as a monotheist religion because they have 3 divine figures.

STAFELLAH



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 12:38pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Originally posted by Mishmish

Where are the Gospels of Jesus?


You will find Jesus Gospel or good news in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Annie

But theses are the Gospels according to, and nobody really knows the authors. It certainly wasn't Jesus.



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 8:05am
Originally posted by Muslima

Yes, but there is still the trinity really.

Personally, I have never considered Christianity as a monotheist religion because they have 3 divine figures.

STAFELLAH



Only one "divine" figure who relates to us in three ways, through the Father, through His Word/Son and through His Holy Spirit.


-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 8:19am
Originally posted by Mishmish

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Originally posted by Mishmish

Where are the Gospels of Jesus?


You will find Jesus Gospel or good news in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Annie

But theses are the Gospels according to, and nobody really knows the authors. It certainly wasn't Jesus.



Matthew wrote Matthew, Mark wrote for Peter, Luke's account is the historical account from eye-witnesses, John wrote John.

Jesus didn't write down what he said; the writers wrote it down for him.

The angel Gabriel did not write the Qur'an himself either, Muhammad received the revelations and he did not write them down either, Muhammad's companions wrote them down.

Why didn't Jesus write down his own gospel?

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jeswrite.html



-------------
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 10:23am

Annie,

I wrote this on another site but I have removed the name of the gentleman.

Christians have snatched all the roled for Jesus and I would like to have your response to the following:

You guys can have only one role for Jesus. Make your pick.

Jesus cannot be everything all rolled into one.

1. Jesus is the Messiah.
2. Jesus is the King.
3. Jesus is the King Messiah.
4. Jesus is Prophet.
5. Jesus is God.
6. Jesus is God, the Son.
7. Jesus is the Son of God.
8. Jesus is the Word.
9. Jesus is God-Incarnate.
10. God is Jesus.

Based on my reading and knowledge of Christianity, Jesus of Christianity can never be the Prophet, the Messiah, the King Messiah and the King. You can rule him out of the first four roles that I mentioned above.

You should consider him only for positions 5-10 stated above. You can't have him in all ways.

Now, pick only one of the above ten and tell me what # item will you assign to Jesus, Just one.? Can you?



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 28 June 2006 at 11:17am

Here is a response from Father Edward when asked to describe the Holy Trinity:

Date: 6/26/2006 3:25:01 PM
Name or Pseudonym: Fr Edward
Subject: Re: Holy Trinity

"The complete understanding of the divine Holy Trinity is beyond human understanding. Just as we cannot fully grasp the concept of infinity, we can only believe, not understand, God's revelation about His infinite Being. There is one God, and yet three distinct Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each Person is equal in power, knowledge and majesty. Our very limited experience is that one person has one nature, but God is an existence far nobler than ours and inaccessible to our feeble intellects.
We sometimes would like to think of God as a being we could understand, but given our limitations that would be a very finite being.
The official Catechism of the Catholic Church gives a detailed description of what we know about our Triune God in numbers 232 - 260. The Catechism is available in bookstores and in many public libraries.
I hope this helps.

Peace and God's blessing."

I think the Trinity could be discussed forever, but there would still be questions.  It is accepted by faith.  It is what I believe.

God's Peace.



-------------
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.



Print Page | Close Window