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Is the Bible the Word of God?

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Category: Religion - Islam
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Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Printed Date: 17 September 2014 at 8:45pm


Topic: Is the Bible the Word of God?
Posted By: AbRah2006
Subject: Is the Bible the Word of God?
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 8:57am
In Islam Jesus is Gods Word means that Jesus received injeel that contained the Word of God from God. Other prophets of God such as Moses and Muhammad received the Word of God in the form of the Torah and Quran respectively.

If you and other Christians claim that the OT and NT are the Word of God, then you are wrong for they contain so many errrors and contradictions.Would you attribute those errors to God and Jesus? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy and the Word of God? Most likely you will say of course not.

I will give you some examples of the corruption of the Bible to support my statement:

1)The God of the Bible allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40) and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).          ; ; ;  Question: Would you attribute those brutal teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

2)Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven:  "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."  ( http://www.evilbible.com/February.htm#Feb 26 - Matthew 19:12 ASV )

Question: Why don't you Christians castrate yourselves so that you can go to heaven? Would you attribute those brutal teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

3)The Biblical Pornography"Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze023.html#19 - Ezekiel 23: 19-21 )

"and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions." (Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV)Questions: why does God have to describe their adventures in such pornographic detail? Does God love porn?

What parent would want their children reading http://www.calvin.edu/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Ezekiel+23:20-21 - verse 21 about comparing the size of men's penises to donkey genitals and the sperm flow to that of horse issues?

As any adult religious parent might believe, such lustful descriptions, if culled from secular sources, would corrupt children should they happen to read them. Should it not also corrupt children if read from the Bible?

Would you attribute those pornographic teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

4)Eat Human Feces!

"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze004.html#12 - Ezekiel 4:12-13 )

Question: How many good Christians today realize that their God has coprophilic tendencies? Would you attribute this teaching to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

5)Eating Dung And Drinking Piss

"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ki/2Ki018.html#27 - II Kings 18:27 )

Question: How many good Christians today realize that their God has coprophilic tendencies? Would you attribute this teaching to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

6)Boil and Eat Your Son

"And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son...." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ki/2Ki006.html#28 - II Kings 6:28-29 )

Would you attribute this cannibalism to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

7)Howl And Strip Naked

"Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic001.html#8 - Micah 1:8 )

Question: Picture in your mind a religious man of today stripping and running around totally nude and prophesying in public, wailing and hooting at the top of his lungs. No doubt the police would snatch him up in a second while citizens stare in embarrassment. It just goes to show how far we have demeaned ourselves and our bodies as shameful. Would you attribute this teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

8)Raping And Killing

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa013.html#15 - Isaiah 13:15-16 )

Question: How some people who believe in an infallible Bible can accept these verses as God inspired, or morally uplifting can only give evidence to the blinding nature of belief. For if we believe these words as God inspired, then the killing of children and the raping of wives must also come as an inspiration from the Supreme Being. Would you attribute this brutal teaching to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

9) Christ taught non-resistance
          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 
    

 10) Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1

        Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 
 

11)Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
          Matt 5:1,2
         Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
          Luke 6:17,20

 Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

12)A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
          Matt 15:22
         It was a Greek woman who besought Him
          Mark 7:26

Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

13)Christ is equal with God
           John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
          Christ is not equal with God
           John 14:28/ Matt 24:36

Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

14) Jesus was all-powerful
           Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
          Jesus was not all-powerful
           Mark 6:5
Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

15) Christ's witness of himself is true.
           John 8:18,14
          Christ's witness of himself is not true.
           John 5:31
     Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

Are those Biblical contradictions and immorality above inspired by God? Would you attribute those errors to God and Jesus? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy and the Word of God?

Note: The earliest Gospel was written about 70 years after Jesus was gone so Jesus was not there to correct the contradictions and errors of the NT!

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of God so he will not contradict his own words. After all Jesus had received the teachings from Allah (God) Who will never contradict His own Word for Allah is the All Wise. However Jesus' teachings were corrupted by the Christians!

The errors and contradictions of the Bible (the OT and NT) is the cause why Allah(God) sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Quran: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Quran 15:9].



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)



Replies:
Posted By: Abednego
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 9:13am
No, I already told you Jesus is the Word of God. The bible is a book.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 9:41am

The Bible is a mixture of scripture, culture and HISTORY.  Just because something is written about in the Bible does not mean the Bible advocates that action, sometimes its an example of the wickedness to avoid. 

I'll respond to accusation #2 first.....

Matthew 19

Teaching About Divorce

 1Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

   

 3And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." 7They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?" 8He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."[a]

   

 10The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry." 11But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

What is being said here is not castrate yourself.  Instead its saying, if you cannot approach a woman with righteousness and cannot maintain your marriage (except in the case of adultry) then it is better not to marry and to live a life of celibacy.  He is making a statement that there are men who are not married for whatever reason and that just because they are celibate (choice of forced) does not mean they will be denied heaven.  That's its better to be celibate than a fornicator or an adulterer. 



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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:00am

Exodus 21

Laws About Slaves
 1"Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' 6then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

   

 7"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8If she does not please her master, who has designated her[a] for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

These laws are the laws of the land set forth by Moses.  But only the Ten Commandments in the previous Chapter came directly from God.

Judges 11:29-40 (English Standard Version)

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=47 - English Standard Version (ESV)

The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright  2001 by http://www.gnpcb.org/ - Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=28">ESV from Good News Press

Jephthah's Tragic Vow
 29Then the Spirit of the LORD was upon Jephthah, and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh and passed on to Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he passed on to the Ammonites. 30And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD and said, "If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, 31then whatever[
a] comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the LORD's, and I will offer it[b] up for a burnt offering." 32So Jephthah crossed over to the Ammonites to fight against them, and the LORD gave them into his hand. 33And he struck them from Aroer to the neighborhood of Minnith, twenty cities, and as far as Abel-keramim, with a great blow. So the Ammonites were subdued before the people of Israel.

   

 34Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah. And behold, his daughter came out to meet him with tambourines and with dances. She was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. 35And as soon as he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, "Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low, and you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the LORD, and I cannot take back my vow." 36And she said to him, "My father, you have opened your mouth to the LORD; do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, now that the LORD has avenged you on your enemies, on the Ammonites." 37So she said to her father, "Let this thing be done for me: leave me alone two months, that I may go up and down on the mountains and weep for my virginity, I and my companions." 38So he said, "Go." Then he sent her away for two months, and she departed, she and her companions, and wept for her virginity on the mountains. 39And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow that he had made. She had never known a man, and it became a custom in Israel 40that the daughters of Israel went year by year to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in the year.

This is not an advocation for child abuse, this is a man who made a vow to God and had to keep it.

Isaiah 13

The Judgment of Babylon

 1The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

   
 2On a bare hill raise a signal;
   cry aloud to them;
wave the hand for them to enter
   the gates of the nobles.
3I myself have commanded my consecrated ones,
   and have summoned my mighty men to execute my anger,
   my proudly exulting ones.[
a]

   

 4The sound of a tumult is on the mountains
   as of a great multitude!
The sound of an uproar of kingdoms,
   of nations gathering together!
The LORD of hosts is mustering
   a host for battle.
5They come from a distant land,
   from the end of the heavens,
the LORD and the weapons of his indignation,
   to destroy the whole land.[
b]

   

 6Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
   as destruction from the Almighty[
c] it will come!
7Therefore all hands will be feeble,
   and every human heart will melt.
8They will be dismayed:
   pangs and agony will seize them;
   they will be in anguish like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at one another;
   their faces will be aflame.

   

 9Behold, the day of the LORD comes,
   cruel, with wrath and fierce anger,
to make the land a desolation
   and to destroy its sinners from it.
10For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
   will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising,
   and the moon will not shed its light.
11I will punish the world for its evil,
   and the wicked for their iniquity;
I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant,
   and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.
12I will make people more rare than fine gold,
   and mankind than the gold of Ophir.
13Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
   and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
at the wrath of the LORD of hosts
   in the day of his fierce anger.
14And like a hunted gazelle,
   or like sheep with none to gather them,
each will turn to his own people,
   and each will flee to his own land.
15Whoever is found will be thrust through,
   and whoever is caught will fall by the sword.
16Their infants will be dashed in pieces
   before their eyes;
their houses will be plundered
   and their wives ravished.

   

 17Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them,
   who have no regard for silver
   and do not delight in gold.
18Their bows will slaughter[
d] the young men;
   they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb;
   their eyes will not pity children.
19And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
   the splendor and pomp of the Chaldeans,
will be like Sodom and Gomorrah
   when God overthrew them.
20It will never be inhabited
   or lived in for all generations;
no Arab will pitch his tent there;
   no shepherds will make their flocks lie down there.
21But wild animals will lie down there,
   and their houses will be full of howling creatures;
there ostriches[
e] will dwell,
   and there wild goats will dance.
22Hyenas[
f] will cry in its towers,
   and jackals in the pleasant palaces;
its time is close at hand
   and its days will not be prolonged.

This is the Judgement of Babylon.....and highly allegorical.

Hosea 13

The LORD's Relentless Judgment on Israel

 1When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling;
   he was exalted in Israel,
   but he incurred guilt through Baal and died.
2And now they sin more and more,
   and make for themselves metal images,
idols skillfully made of their silver,
   all of them the work of craftsmen.
It is said of them,
   "Those who offer human sacrifice kiss calves!"
3Therefore they shall be like the morning mist
   or like the dew that goes early away,
like the chaff that swirls from the threshing floor
   or like smoke from a window.

   

 4But I am the LORD your God
   from the land of Egypt;
you know no God but me,
   and besides me there is no savior.
5It was I who knew you in the wilderness,
   in the land of drought;
6but when they had grazed,[
a] they became full,
   they were filled, and their heart was lifted up;
   therefore they forgot me.
7So I am to them like a lion;
   like a leopard I will lurk beside the way.
8I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs;
   I will tear open their breast,
and there I will devour them like a lion,
   as a wild beast would rip them open.

   

 9He destroys[b] you, O Israel,
   for you are against me, against your helper.
10Where now is your king, to save you in all your cities?
   Where are all your rulers--
those of whom you said,
   "Give me a king and princes"?
11I gave you a king in my anger,
   and I took him away in my wrath.

   

 12The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up;
   his sin is kept in store.
13The pangs of childbirth come for him,
   but he is an unwise son,
for at the right time he does not present himself
   at the opening of the womb.

   

 14Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol?
   Shall I redeem them from Death?
O Death, where are your plagues?
   O Sheol, where is your sting?
   Compassion is hidden from my eyes.

   

 15Though he may flourish among his brothers,
   the east wind, the wind of the LORD, shall come,
   rising from the wilderness,
and his fountain shall dry up;
   his spring shall be parched;
it shall strip his treasury
   of every precious thing.
16[
c] Samaria shall bear her guilt,
   because she has rebelled against her God;
they shall fall by the sword;
   their little ones shall be dashed in pieces,
   and their pregnant women ripped open

Ditto....

Psalm 137

How Shall We Sing the LORD's Song?

 1By the waters of Babylon,
   there we sat down and wept,
   when we remembered Zion.
2On the willows[
a] there
   we hung up our lyres.
3For there our captors
   required of us songs,
and our tormentors, mirth, saying,
   "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!"

   

 4How shall we sing the LORD's song
   in a foreign land?
5If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
   let my right hand forget its skill!
6Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth,
   if I do not remember you,
if I do not set Jerusalem
   above my highest joy!

   

 7Remember, O LORD, against the Edomites
   the day of Jerusalem,
how they said, "Lay it bare, lay it bare,
   down to its foundations!"
8O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed,
   blessed shall he be who repays you
   with what you have done to us!
9Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones
   and dashes them against the rock!

And like wise.....



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Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:25am

 Angela's statement:

10The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry." 11But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

What is being said here is not castrate yourself. 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Dear Angela,

I quote your word: 'What is being said here is not castrate yourself.'

Answer: Matthew 19:12 has refuted your claim by saying:

12For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:31am

Correct, its not saying go do it...its saying there are those who have done it....big difference.  The Bible is not comparable to the Quran.  It comments more one what is going on around the Prophets and Apostles as much as the revelations being given.  You have to understand which are comments of what is going on and which are directives.  That's not saying chop the boys off, its saying there are a few that have done this in order to ensure they remain chaste. 

I'll look but there is a scripture I'm trying to find and maybe one of the other Christians can help but it has to do with making your body a temple.



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Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:46am
Angela's statement:
Jephthah's Tragic Vow-

This is not an advocation for child abuse, this is a man who made a vow to God and had to keep it.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Dear Angela,

When "the spirit of the Lord" comes upon Jephthah, he makes a deal with God: If God will help him kill the Ammonites, then he (Jephthah) will offer to God as a burnt offering whatever comes out of his house to greet him. God keeps his end of the deal by providing Jephthah with "a very great slaughter." But when Jephthah returns, his nameless daughter comes out to greet him (who'd he expect, his wife?). Well, a deal's a deal, so he delivers her to God as a burnt offering -- after letting her spend a couple of months going up and down on the mountains bewailing her virginity.

Question: 1)Does God approve of human sacrifice?

               2) How could this  man make a vow to God and  keep it  by offering his own daughter as a burnt offering. Had the God of the Bible and this man forgotten that this sacrifice contradict http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/18.html#10 - Deuteronomy 18:10 !

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/18.html#10 - Deuteronomy 18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire....
 
I wonder what kind of God that contradicts His own Word. Is the God of the Bible cruel enough to accept the sacrifice?
In Islam Allah is the Most Merciful God and He didn't allow Abraham to sacrifice Ishmael.


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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:54am

Angela's statement: Correct, its not saying go do it...its saying there are those who have done it....big difference. 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Answer: Matthew 19:12 .....there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....

So they castrated themselves so that they could go to heaven.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:02am

AbRah, when quoting, use the whole scripture....

Abominable Practices

 9"When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[e] anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, 12for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you. 13You shall be blameless before the LORD your God, 14for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this.

It depends on what he considered the "door of his house" maybe it was the gate to the wall around his house....he could have expected a goat to come out or the family dog...maybe a chicken?????  Who knows what his household was like????

But to answer your question.....

Genesis 22

Abraham Tested

 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
      "Here I am," he replied.

 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac (Ishmael?), whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.

Why would this be a test of obedience if God did not hold men to obey him and keep their covenants with him???



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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:06am
Originally posted by AbRah2006

Answer: Matthew 19:12 .....there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....

So they castrated themselves so that they could go to heaven.

No, they castrated themselves to prevent SIN?  Have you heard of chemical castration?  Its a new attempt to keep men who are repeat sex offenders from continuing to commit crimes.  They are given injections to keep them from having sexual urges.  There are also a number of these men who have undergone voluntary castration to prevent reoffending.  These men wanted to ensure they did not sin by committing fornication.  So they castrated themselves.  Perhaps they felt they were so weak as they would never be able to control themselves otherwise?  Perhaps they were homosexual in desire and were afraid they would act on the impulses or they had some other thing they feared.  But again, this is not a directive or suggestion but a statement that there are those that have done this thing.



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Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Angela

[QUOTE=AbRah2006]

Answer: Matthew 19:12 .....there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....

So they castrated themselves so that they could go to heaven.

No, they castrated themselves to prevent SIN?  Have you heard of chemical castration?  Its a new attempt to keep men who are repeat sex offenders from continuing to commit crimes.  They are given injections to keep them from having sexual urges.  There are also a number of these men who have undergone voluntary castration to prevent reoffending.  These men wanted to ensure they did not sin by committing fornication.  So they castrated themselves.  Perhaps they felt they were so weak as they would never be able to control themselves otherwise?  Perhaps they were homosexual in desire and were afraid they would act on the impulses or they had some other thing they feared.  But again, this is not a directive or suggestion but a statement that there are those that have done this thing.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

If you believe that if you castrate yourselves you can go to heaven then you are wrong.Being an eunuch you can still commit sins other than illicit sex such as lie, cheat, murder etc.

I as a Muslim need not to castrate myself because I can control my sexual urges. I never commit any illicit sex because I obey Allah and His messenger Muhammad. I believe that if I obey Allah and His messenger I will go to heaven.

Quran

03.057 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:34am
Angela's statement:

Genesis 22

Abraham Tested

 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
      "Here I am," he replied.

 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac (Ishmael?), whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.

Why would this be a test of obedience if God did not hold men to obey him and keep their covenants with him???

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

Question: What are your proofs to say that it was Isaac who was about to be sacrificed when God stopped his father?



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:38am

That's not what I said.  I said they must have believed they could not control themselves.  My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body.  You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. 

What part of that don't you understand?  Is there some language barrier????

Commandments  (Fard, Halal.....)

Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct....

These are two different things.

This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening.

 



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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:42am

Originally posted by AbRah2006

Question: What are your proofs to say that it was Isaac who was about to be sacrificed when God stopped his father?

None, the Hebrew Torah and Old Testament say it was Isaac.  The Quran says it was Ishmael.  To mean it matters little which son it was, the more important part is the lesson in obedience and piety of Abraham.  Correct? 

Bismark wrote a very long article on arguing why it was Ishmael and not Isaac.  I cannot see where it would make much difference in the long run.  Both are sons of Abraham whom he loved very much and both were blessed of God.

The point was to answer your question about sacrificing sons and daughters.  If you look at my response I added in this... (Ishmael?) out of respect for the varience between Jewish/Christian tradition and Islamic tradition.  However, since I was quoting Genesis, it says Isaac.  I could have just as easily used a few ayats from the Quran to emphasize the point.



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Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:50am
[QUOTE=Angela]

That's not what I said.  I said they must have believed they could not control themselves.  My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body.  You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. 

What part of that don't you understand?  Is there some language barrier????

Commandments  (Fard, Halal.....)

Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct....

These are two different things.

This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening.

-----------------------------------------------------------

But Matthew 19:12 is a part of the NT and Matthew 19:12 says that there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....What does this mean? It means that they castrated themselves so that they can go to heaven! What will happen if everyman castrate himself? All mankind will vanish after 150 years!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 12:06pm

Quran 37:101 "So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son."

037.102 Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if God so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

037.103 So when they had both submitted their wills (to God), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

037.104 We called out to him "O Abraham!

037.105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

037.106 For this was obviously a trial-

037.107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:

037.108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:

037.109 "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"

037.110 Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

037.111 For he was one of our believing Servants.

Let us read The Opinion Of Ibn Kathr:

And this son is Ishmael(P) for he is the first son whose good news was brought to Abraham(P). He is older than Isaac according to Muslims and ahl al-kitb (i.e., the People of the Book) too. It is even said in their Scripture that Ishmael(P) was born when Abraham(P) was 86 years old and Isaac(P) was born when Abraham(P) was 99. In their Scripture as well, God is said to have ordered Abraham(P) to sacrifice his only son and in another version his firstborn. And, at this spot, they inserted falsely the name of Isaac(P) against the text of their very Scripture. The reason they inserted Isaac(P) is that he is their father whereas Ishmael(P) is the father of the Arabs. They added Isaac(P) out of envy and brushed away "only son" by saying that Ishmael(P) and his mother had already been to Makkah. This is a mere [farfetched] explanation since we never say "only son" except to a person who hasn't got but one son. Moreover, the firstborn has got a special place [in the heart of his father] that is not given to the following children and the order to sacrifice him is therefore a greater test. Some knowledgeable people were inclined to say that the sacrificed was Isaac(P). This was reported from some people of the salaf (i.e. people of the previous generations) and it was even reported from some Companions(R) but [this opinion] does not have any bearings from the Book [i.e., the Qur'n] nor from the Sunnah. I think such opinion was received from the Rabbis of ahl al-Kitb as is without evidence. Moreover, God's Book is a witness and points to the fact that it is Ishmael(P) because the glad tiding said that the son was patient and that he is the sacrificed. Only afterwards, He said: "And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous." and when the Angels brought the good news of Isaac(P) to Abraham(P) they said: " "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge." And the Most High said: " We gave her [Sarah] glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob." [11:71] meaning that in the lifetime of Abraham(P) and Sarah(P), Isaac(P) will beget a child that he will call Jacob(P) implying that Isaac(P) will have a progeny. We have already explained why it is not possible that Isaac(P) be sacrificed while still a child i.e., because God promised them [Abraham and Sarah] that he will have a progeny. On the other hand, Ishmael(P) was described as forbearing and he fits that description.

[Note that many commentators including Ibn Kathr believe that "forbearing" does not fit a child, it can at least describe teenagers for they are old enough to be described as such.]

 The great Qur'nic commentator Ibn Kathr said that according to the Bible, the sacrificed is said to be Abraham's(P) only son (or his firstborn in some versions), which cannot fit Isaac(P); according to the Qur'n, the good news of Isaac(P) said that he would have a progeny and consequently God cannot order Abraham(P) to sacrifice Isaac(P) before the promise is fulfilled. Again, according to the Qur'n, the sacrificed cannot be Isaac.

The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad identified the son who was to be sacrificed as Ishmael and, indeed, the opinion of the traditionalists were also divided on this subject. It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Qurayza tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn cAbd al-cAzz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj.[4]

The testimony of the former Jew as mentioned hadth literature as quoted in the Encyclopaedia Judaica reads:

Another proof of our speech [i.e., that sacrificed was Ishmael(P)] is reported by Ibn Ishq: "Muhammad Ibn Ka'b narrated that cUmar Ibn cAbd al-cAzz sent for a man who had been a Jew then converted to Islam and showed signs of true Islam. [Before his conversion], he was one of their scholars [i.e., he was a Jewish scholar] So he [i.e., cUmar] asked him: which son did Abraham(P) sacrifice? He replied: 'It is Ishmael(P). By God, O Commander of the Believers, the Jews know that but they envy you - the Arabs.'[5]

The Oxford Companion To The Bible echoes the same position as the Encyclopaedia Judaica.

In Muslim tradition, the Arabs trace their ancestry back to Abraham through Ishmael. Because Ishmael was circumcised (Gen. 17:25), so are most Muslims. And, analogous to Paul's reversal of the figures of Isaac and Ishmael (Gal. 4:24-26), Muslim tradition makes Ishmael rather than Isaac the son Abraham was commanded to sacrifice.[6]

It is quite clear from the statement of Judeo-Christian scholars what the Muslim position is about the person who was sacrificed by Abraham(P).



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 12:26pm
***Abrah: Please discontinue using bold type for all of your posts. This is a breach of the Guidelines and you will not be warned again.***

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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by AbRah2006

[QUOTE=Angela]

That's not what I said.  I said they must have believed they could not control themselves.  My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body.  You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. 

What part of that don't you understand?  Is there some language barrier????

Commandments  (Fard, Halal.....)

Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct....

These are two different things.

This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening.

-----------------------------------------------------------

But Matthew 19:12 is a part of the NT and Matthew 19:12 says that there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....What does this mean? It means that they castrated themselves so that they can go to heaven! What will happen if everyman castrate himself? All mankind will vanish after 150 years!

Then aren't we glad it was just a phenomenon and not a commandment.

 

As for Ishmael vs Isaac, I will take the message of the story and leave the details to be argued over by those who need to argue details.



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Posted By: Abednego
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 1:21pm

Then aren't we glad it was just a phenomenon and not a commandment.

Amen!



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Angela

[QUOTE=AbRah2006][QUOTE=Angela]

That's not what I said.  I said they must have believed they could not control themselves.  My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body.  You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. 

Answer:Many Christians alter their bodies  eventhough your church fobids it. And the Christians make images for the churches and revere them eventhough the Bible forbids the making of images. The Christians consume pork eventhough the Bible forbids pork! What is happening to the Christians now?

------------------------------------------------------------ ---

What part of that don't you understand?  Is there some language barrier????

Language barrier? Answer:No!

Commandments  (Fard, Halal.....)

Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct....

These are two different things.

This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening.

-----------------------------------------------------------

But Matthew 19:12 is a part of the NT and Matthew 19:12 says that there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....What does this mean? It means that they castrated themselves so that they can go to heaven! What will happen if everyman castrate himself? All mankind will vanish after 150 years!

------------------------------------------------------------ --

Then aren't we glad it was just a phenomenon and not a commandment.

Answer: Matthew 19:12 is a part of the NT and the NT belong to Christianity. Therefore castration is acceptable  to Christianity as a way to heaven as a means to avoid illicit sex but the eunuchs can still commit sins such as dishonour parents, committing murder, stealing, bearing false witness etc. I am lucky that Quran does not ask us Muslims to castrate oursellves. We will go to heaven if we Muslims obey God and His messenger the prophet Muhammad.

Please tell me about  the commandments of Christianity. Do you mean the Ten Commandments?

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:36pm

Angela's statement: That's not what I said.  I said they must have believed they could not control themselves.  My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body.  You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. 

Answer:Many Christians alter their bodies  eventhough your church fobids it. And the Christians make images for the churches and revere them eventhough the Bible forbids the making of images. The Christians consume pork eventhough the Bible forbids pork! What is happening to the Christians now?

------------------------------------------------------------ ---

Angela's statement: What part of that don't you understand?  Is there some language barrier????

Language barrier? Answer:No!

Angela's statement: Commandments  (Fard, Halal.....)

Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct....

These are two different things.

This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening.

-----------------------------------------------------------

But Matthew 19:12 is a part of the NT and Matthew 19:12 says that there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....What does this mean? It means that they castrated themselves so that they can go to heaven! What will happen if everyman castrate himself? All mankind will vanish after 150 years!

------------------------------------------------------------ --

Angela's statement: Then aren't we glad it was just a phenomenon and not a commandment.

Answer: Matthew 19:12 is a part of the NT and the NT belong to Christianity. Therefore castration is acceptable  to Christianity as a way to heaven as a means to avoid illicit sex but the eunuchs can still commit sins such as dishonour parents, committing murder, stealing, bearing false witness etc so castration is not means to heaven.

Islam has declared fornication (which by definition in Islam includes adultery) unlawful, and it goes to great lengths to make it repugnant by sanction and deterrent. It has even gone so far as to make any alliances of this type of unlawful sexual relationship a heinous sin and an odious offence. In other words, sexual relations of any kind, that fall outside of lawful marriage, are absolutely forbidden. For example: 

"Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils)." [Qur'an 17:32]

In Islam we are not allowed to harm ourselves. Islam encourages us to marry to control our sexual urges .

One of the benefits of marriage is to be safe from the machinations of the devil and to satisfy lust and hence protect the private parts. The Prophet said: "If a man marries, half of his religion is saved. Fear God for the remaining half." The Prophet said: "Whoever among you is able to marry, should marry, and whoever is not able to marry, is recommended to fast, for fasting diminishes his sexual power." The pleasure which lies within sexual intercourse is an example of happiness in the afterlife. There is no benefit derived from a thing in which there is no pleasure.

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts). Verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." [Qur'an 30:21] 

"And those who pray, "Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous." [Qur'an 25:74] 

If we can't afford to marry, Islam asks us to fast to control our sexual urges. The Prophet said: "Whoever among you is able to marry, should marry, and whoever is not able to marry, is recommended to fast, for fasting diminishes his sexual power." If we can overcome our sexual urges then it will a big success to us and Allah will reward us for trying to control our sexual urges. 

 Castration is  not a way to heaven for it cannot stop you from committing other sins. We will go to heaven if we Muslims obey God and His messenger the prophet Muhammad.

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:38pm

Angela...why are there so many errors and contradictions in the OT and NT?



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:50pm

Angela's statement:Angela's statement: Then aren't we glad it was just a phenomenon and not a commandment.

Angela....Do you believe in the OT and NT? Do you believe that all the contents of the OT and NT are the Word of God?



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:48am

AbRah2006,

Yes, the Bible is the Word of God.  The Qur'an confirms the former revelations of God.

Just because you are unable to interpret Scriptures and find "inaccuracies" and "contradictions" does not mean that there are any.

BTW:  Remember the Surah in your Qur'an that says if you are in doubt that you should ask the Christians?  I think Allah means for you to listen to us.

Peace



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 26 May 2006 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by AbRah2006

Islam has declared fornication (which by definition in Islam includes adultery) unlawful, and it goes to great lengths to make it repugnant by sanction and deterrent. It has even gone so far as to make any alliances of this type of unlawful sexual relationship a heinous sin and an odious offence. In other words, sexual relations of any kind, that fall outside of lawful marriage, are absolutely forbidden. For example: 

"Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils)." [Qur'an 17:32]

In Islam we are not allowed to harm ourselves. Islam encourages us to marry to control our sexual urges .

One of the benefits of marriage is to be safe from the machinations of the devil and to satisfy lust and hence protect the private parts. The Prophet said: "If a man marries, half of his religion is saved. Fear God for the remaining half." The Prophet said: "Whoever among you is able to marry, should marry, and whoever is not able to marry, is recommended to fast, for fasting diminishes his sexual power." The pleasure which lies within sexual intercourse is an example of happiness in the afterlife. There is no benefit derived from a thing in which there is no pleasure.

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts). Verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." [Qur'an 30:21] 

"And those who pray, "Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous." [Qur'an 25:74] 

If we can't afford to marry, Islam asks us to fast to control our sexual urges. The Prophet said: "Whoever among you is able to marry, should marry, and whoever is not able to marry, is recommended to fast, for fasting diminishes his sexual power." If we can overcome our sexual urges then it will a big success to us and Allah will reward us for trying to control our sexual urges. 

 Castration is  not a way to heaven for it cannot stop you from committing other sins. We will go to heaven if we Muslims obey God and His messenger the prophet Muhammad.

First of "Islam" wasn't the first to make it a sin to fornicate.  The Torah/Old Testament did that.  The Quran just upheld what had already been revealed.  Secondly, if fasting was all it took for all men to avoid fornication....then it wouldn't be the problem it is all over the world.  Not just in the West.  Thirdly, of course castration is not going to stop you from other types of sin, which is why its not practiced or accepted.  You still can't seem to get the difference between the passage commenting on something that was happening and actual doctrine.  The bible isn't like the Quran....its not all commandment.  Certainly, men are not allowed to murder their neighbors just to marry their wives, yet that is in the Old Testament.  Certainly we are not to worship pagan gods, but the priests of Baal appear in the Bible.  Not everything in the Bible is Doctrine, some of it is just History.



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Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:15pm

b)There were some things that Jesus didn't tell them. John 16:12: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

4)Did Peter ask Jesus where he was going?

a)John 3:22  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

b)John 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples.

5)When did Jesus curse the fig tree? a)Before driving the merchants from the temple. Mark 11:12-17 or b)After driving the merchants from the temple. Matthew 21:12 and Matthew 21:17-19

6) To whom did Jesus make his first post-resurrection appearance?a)The two Marys Matthew 28:1, 9 , (b)Mary Magdalene Mark 16:9    (c)Cleopas and another Luke 24:13-31 or (d)Cephas 1 Corinthians 15:4-5

My comment: Why does the NT contradict itself? If the NT is right about the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' , why must it make contradictory statements about it? The crucifixion of Jesus did not happen so the NT gives us contradictory statements!

7)God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
        God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28
8)God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
        God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
9)God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
         Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
        God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all     
        things
         Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
10) God knows the hearts of men
         Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
        God tries men to find out what is in their heart
         Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
11) God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
       God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19
12) God is unchangeable
         James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
        God is changeable
         Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
          Ex 33:1,3,17,14

Hey George...The biblical verses above contradict each other. Does God contradict Himself or change His mind? Allah will not contradict His own Word nor change His mind for God is the All Wise so it seems to me that the Bible is corrupted by the keepers of the Bible! Therefore the Bible is not the Word of God!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
George's statement:

AbRah2006,

Yes, the Bible is the Word of God.  The Qur'an confirms the former revelations of God.

Just because you are unable to interpret Scriptures and find "inaccuracies" and "contradictions" does not mean that there are any.

BTW:  Remember the Surah in your Qur'an that says if you are in doubt that you should ask the Christians?  I think Allah means for you to listen to us.

------------------------------------------------------------ ---

My answer: There are so many errors, absurdities and contradictions in the Bible but you are so arrogant to admit them. I will show you some of the so many :

The absurdities, errors and contradiction of the NT and OT:

1)Who buried Jesus?

a) Joseph of Arimathaea (Matthew 27:57-60)  (b)Joseph of Arimataea and Nicodemus (John 19:38-42) or (c) The Jews and their rulers (Acts 13:27-29) ....Why does the NT contradict itself? If the NT is right about the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' , why must it make contradictory statements about it? The crucifixion of Jesus did not happen so the NT gives us contradictory statements!

2)Did Jesus forewarn the apostles of his death and resurrection?

a) Yes, he did. Matthew 20:18-19 or (b) No, he did not. John 20:9

3)Did Jesus tell his disciples everything?

a)Jesus told his disciples everything. John 15:15:For all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:25pm
Hey what has happened to my statement above? It has splitted into two parts !!!! I wonder what is happening.

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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:42pm
George's statement:

AbRah2006,

Yes, the Bible is the Word of God.  The Qur'an confirms the former revelations of God.

Just because you are unable to interpret Scriptures and find "inaccuracies" and "contradictions" does not mean that there are any.

BTW:  Remember the Surah in your Qur'an that says if you are in doubt that you should ask the Christians?  I think Allah means for you to listen to us.

------------------------------------------------------------ -----

My response:

Quran 16:36 For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), "Serve God, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom God guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).

Surah 3 - Ali 'Imran - THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN

003.001 Alif, Lam, Mim.

003.002 God! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.

003.003 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgement between right and wrong).

Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) (Salallahu alayhi wa salam, meaning: May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was Allh's  great Prophet and Messenger   like Jesus, the Son of Mary.  The Prophet's mission, however, is universal. Allah (S.W.T.)    (Subhanahu wa taala, meaning: the Exalted, Most Glorious) tells mankind that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) is no more than a Messenger (Quran 3: 144), the unlettered Prophet who believes in Him and His Words (Quran 7: 158).  He is the Seal of the Prophets and the true universal Messenger of Allh to the whole mankind (Quran 33: 40). Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty, makes this very clear:

"We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but as a universal (Messenger) to men giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin) but most men understand not." (Qurn 34: 28)

For our guidance, Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty commands us to believe and obey His Messenger (s.a.w.s.):

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): If you (really) love Allh then follow me (i.e. accept Islmic Monotheism, follow the Qurn and the Sunnah), Allh will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Say (O Muhammad): Obey Allh and the Messenger (Muhammad). But if they turn away, then Allh does not like the disbelievers." (Quran 3: 31)

"O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Rabb (Sustainer). So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to Allh belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And Allh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise." (Qurn 4: 170)

"O you who believe! Obey Allh, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Qurn 47: 33)

Question: Why did God send Muhammad and the Quran to all mankind after Moses, the Torah, Jesus and injeel etc?

We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty did send the Torah (Old Testament or the Law) to the Jews, but they then corrupted this Holy Message;  "We (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences arose therein:  had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them:  but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it.  (The Noble Quran, 11:110)"  

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time.  But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message.  Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems.  They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe.  That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them.  A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.  That is why "differences arose therein....."   Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.  Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.   (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"  

As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it.  Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus.  Others believe it took 300 years.  In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy.  That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew....." instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew]...." and so on.  Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors.  It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful.  The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others.  The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc... Please visit http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm - History of man's corruption in the Bible for more details.  Today, there is no one Bible!.

Allah Almighty warned Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him from the false practices done by Jews and Christians:

"Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: 'The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance.' Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God.  (The Noble Quran, 2:120)"

"They say: 'Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).' Say thou: 'Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:135)"

"Indeed they reject the truth, those that say "God is Christ, the son of Mary." For indeed, Christ said, worship God, who is my God and your God.  (The Holy Quran, 5:72)"

Trinity today, and the corruption of the Torah (The Law sent to the Jews) to prove that the Jews are the best people for all times and all places and the denial of Jesus peace be upon him and the many other false teachings are evidence of the false teachings and practices of the Christians and the Jews.

In general, we Muslims believe that the current Torah and Injil are mixed between the true Words of GOD Almighty and man's corruption.  We also believe that the Bible had more truth in it during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time than what we have today.   That is why Allah Almighty was challenging some of the Jews and the Christians to refer to their Scriptures back then.

Even the Bible says that the Bible would be corrupted into a lie by the its keepers:

In Deuteronomy 31:25-29 Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

The Noble Quran came to CONFIRM the Truth that exists in the Bible.  Allah Almighty NEVER claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine.  Islam is a witness on the Bible.  It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible.  The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it.  Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded.

That is why we Muslims believe in only the parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran.  The parts that contradict the Noble Quran are not the Truth:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge;  That they said (in boast):  'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.'  But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.  Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise.  And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him  (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them.   (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"  

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.  Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.   (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.  (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/que9.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/que9.htm



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 26 May 2006 at 11:02pm
God is the author of the original Torah that was sent to Moses, Injeel to Jesus and Quran to Muhammad so they bear some simmilarities.Therefore you are wrong if you say that Quran is a copy of the Bible and Torah for bearing some simmilarities. However the Torah and Bible were corrupted by their keepers so God sent the Holy Quran to all mankind to replace the books.

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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 3:37am

George's statement:

AbRah2006,

Yes, the Bible is the Word of God.  The Qur'an confirms the former revelations of God.

Just because you are unable to interpret Scriptures and find "inaccuracies" and "contradictions" does not mean that there are any.

BTW:  Remember the Surah in your Qur'an that says if you are in doubt that you should ask the Christians?  I think Allah means for you to listen to us.

------------------------------------------------------------ ---

My answer: There are so many errors, absurdities and contradictions in the Bible but you are so arrogant to admit them. I will show you some of the so many :

The absurdities, errors and contradiction of the NT and OT:

1) Who buried Jesus?  a) Joseph of Arimathaea (Matthew 27:57-60)  (b)Joseph of Arimataea and Nicodemus (John 19:38-42) or (c) The Jews and their rulers (Acts 13:27-29) ....Why does the NT contradict itself? If the NT is right about the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' , why must it make contradictory statements about it? The crucifixion of Jesus did not happen so the NT gives us contradictory statements!

2)Did Jesus forewarn the apostles of his death and resurrection? a) Yes, he did. Matthew 20:18-19 or (b) No, he did not. John 20:9

3)Did Jesus tell his disciples everything?

a) Jesus told his disciples everything. John 15:15:For all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

b)There were some things that Jesus didn't tell them. John 16:12: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

4)Did Peter ask Jesus where he was going?

a)John 3:22  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

b)John 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples.

5)When did Jesus curse the fig tree? a)Before driving the merchants from the temple. Mark 11:12-17 or b)After driving the merchants from the temple. Matthew 21:12 and Matthew 21:17-19

6) To whom did Jesus make his first post-resurrection appearance? a)The two Marys Matthew 28:1, 9 , (b)Mary Magdalene Mark 16:9    (c) Cleopas and another Luke 24:13-31 or (d) Cephas 1 Corinthians 15:4-5

My comment: Why does the NT contradict itself? If the NT is right about the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' , why must it make contradictory statements about it? The crucifixion of Jesus did not happen so the NT gives us contradictory statements!

7)God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
        God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28
8)God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
        God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
9)God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
         Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
        God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all     
        things
         Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
10) God knows the hearts of men
         Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
        God tries men to find out what is in their heart
         Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
11) God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
       God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19
12) God is unchangeable
         James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
        God is changeable
         Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
          Ex 33:1,3,17,14

Hey George...The biblical verses above contradict each other. Does God contradict Himself or change His mind? Allah will not contradict His own Word nor change His mind for God is the All Wise so it seems to me that the Bible is corrupted by the keepers of the Bible! Therefore the Bible is not the Word of God!

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 4:36am
AbRah2006,

I understand why you are confused.  I studied what you claim as contradictions in the Bible and found none.  It is a matter of knowing what is being said and why.  And also as far as the gospels knowing that the gospel writers had many sources for what they presented.  Some witnesses may have seen things that others didn't.  Some witnesses saw things differently.  This is sort of like witnesses to an accident.  Every detail does not match up but it is the important elements that matter.

For instance, all gospels say that Jesus died and rose again. 

I also wonder why you post so much about what you think are contradictions in Christianity.  Why not concentrate on telling us why you are a muslim and what Islam has meant to you and how it has changed your life for the better in your own words?

Annie






Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 4:56am

Greetings & Welcome, Annie

"And also as far as the gospels knowing that the gospel writers had many sources for what they presented.  Some witnesses may have seen things that others didn't.  Some witnesses saw things differently.  This is sort of like witnesses to an accident.  Every detail does not match up but it is the important elements that matter."

I agree with you on that and it was a big accident indeed!

"For instance, all gospels say that Jesus died and rose again."

I think AbRah does not know the details of that incident, the "accident" well.   I am trying to explain that to him and others. I believe there are too many stories told about the accident and no matter what the stories were or how were they reported, Jesus was saved by God in the end. I am happy about that.

Best Regards

BMZ



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 5:40am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Greetings & Welcome, Annie

"And also as far as the gospels knowing that the gospel writers had many sources for what they presented.  Some witnesses may have seen things that others didn't.  Some witnesses saw things differently.  This is sort of like witnesses to an accident.  Every detail does not match up but it is the important elements that matter."

I agree with you on that and it was a big accident indeed!

"For instance, all gospels say that Jesus died and rose again."

I think AbRah does not know the details of that incident, the "accident" well.   I am trying to explain that to him and others. I believe there are too many stories told about the accident and no matter what the stories were or how were they reported, Jesus was saved by God in the end. I am happy about that.

Best Regards

BMZ



Jesus died on the cross and rose again.  We are saved by that fact.

Annie


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 6:23am

Annie,

From you: "Jesus died on the cross and rose again.  We are saved by that fact."

We are discussing that unresolved matter, which is full of reasonable doubts, on another thread.



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 6:53am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

From you: "Jesus died on the cross and rose again.  We are saved by that fact."

We are discussing that unresolved matter, which is full of reasonable doubts, on another thread.



Oh.  Then the matter is settled?  There are no reasonable doubts among the Christians--at least those with knowledge.  There were also no reasonable doubts among Jesus' apostles.

Annie


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 8:40am

[QUOTE=AnnieTwo]AbRah2006,

I understand why you are confused.  I studied what you claim as contradictions in the Bible and found none.  It is a matter of knowing what is being said and why.  And also as far as the gospels knowing that the gospel writers had many sources for what they presented.  Some witnesses may have seen things that others didn't.  Some witnesses saw things differently.  This is sort of like witnesses to an accident.  Every detail does not match up but it is the important elements that matter.

For instance, all gospels say that Jesus died and rose again. 

I also wonder why you post so much about what you think are contradictions in Christianity.  Why not concentrate on telling us why you are a muslim and what Islam has meant to you and how it has changed your life for the better in your own words?


------------------------------------------------------------ ----

My response:

Am I confused? I am not confused at all for the Biblical verses clearly contradict one another!It seems to me that you are the one who are confused! Why don't you refute all the contradictions openly so that we can debate?

How can you believe in the Gospels that contradict one another? If the witnesses of an incident gave contradictory statements, the Gospels are not reliable books! 

You said "Every detail does not match up but it is the important elements that matter." ....My comment: How important are the elements if every detail does not match? Can you win a case in the court by giving contradictory details to the court?

You said "For instance, all gospels say that Jesus died and rose again.".....My comment: ***EDITED***

Let  us see whether all the Gospels say the same thing about the death of Jesus eventhough I believe that Jesus was not crucified for Allah had saved him:

The Bible contradicts itself by saying:

(a) Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

(b)Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

(c)Matthew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Matthew27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.





 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 8:51am
AbRah2006,

I see no contradictions.  I only see your attempt to say that there are.  I see contradictions in the Qur'an.  Does that make it so?

I haven't read all of your posts, but only a few and I am wondering if you are secure in your faith because you seem very insecure.  Are you?

I am very secure in my faith.  I am comfortable knowing that God loves me and I am comfortable following Jesus.  Jesus is the perfect example of one of God's own to follow, whether you believe that he was the manisfestation of God's most Holy Word or not.  He was and still is the prophet par excellence.  He never used a bloody sword, he was sinless, and his teachings are beyond comparision with any other's.

I am very worried when I see Muslims mocking and criticizing what they do not understand.  Maybe I can help all of you on this site.  I will try my very, very best.

Annie


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 9:24am

[QUOTE=AnnieTwo]AbRah2006,

AnnieTwo's statement: I see no contradictions.  I only see your attempt to say that there are.  I see contradictions in the Qur'an.  Does that make it so?

My response:

Once again you fail to see the contradiction of the NT eventhough I presents very clear biblical contradictions: Acts 10:39  and Acts 5:30 claimed that Jesus was  hanged on a tree  VERSUS Mark 15:32  and Matthew 27:41 that claimed that Jesus was crucified on the cross!

AnnieTwo's statement: I haven't read all of your posts, but only a few and I am wondering if you are secure in your faith because you seem very insecure.  Are you?

My response: You are contradicting yourself by saying such thing to me. You said that you had not read all of my posts but you claimed that I was very insecure. How did you know? You are prejudging me! I am very secure for I am a Muslim and I worship Allah the true God!

As a Muslim I worship Allah Who says that none is equal to Him but you Fredi worship a man who is called Jesus. I worship Allah who is the All-Mighty but you worship Jesus who says in John 5:30: I can of mine own self do nothing.... Why do you worship a powerless man?

I worship Allah Who is  the Knower of the unseen and the visible but Marks Gospel reveals that Jesus had limitations in his knowledge.  In Mark 13:32, Jesus declared that he himself does not know when the last day will occur, but the Father alone knows that (see also Matthew 24:36).

I worship Allah Who is  the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. You worship Jesus who was born by a woman. Why do you worship a creation of God?

I worship Allah Who is the Greatest but you worship Jesus who says in John 14:28,  The Father is greater than I. In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: The Father is greater than I. By stating that the Father is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Why do you worship Jesus who is not God's co-equal? 


AnnieTwo's statement: I am very secure in my faith.  I am comfortable knowing that God loves me and I am comfortable following Jesus.  Jesus is the perfect example of one of God's own to follow, whether you believe that he was the manisfestation of God's most Holy Word or not.  He was and still is the prophet par excellence.  He never used a bloody sword, he was sinless, and his teachings are beyond comparision with any other's.

My response: Have you met God? Have God told you that He loves you personally?

Have you ever read the NT? See what the NT says about Jesus: Jesus comes to detroy peace and families!

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew 10:34-36:
I came not to send peace, but a sword. ... A man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Jesus came not to bring peace but to destroy families by making family members hate each other.
Is Jesus peaceful?

Matthew:

 

15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

 

15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

 

15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

 

15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it.

 In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of Allah for he is a righteous man!


AnnieTwo's statement: I am very worried when I see Muslims mocking and criticizing what they do not understand.  Maybe I can help all of you on this site.  I will try my very, very best.

My response: I have made so many researches about Christianity so I understand it very well! I will try my best to expose the corruption of Christianity! It is my pleasure to help you on this very site!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 9:36am
AbRah2006,

Once again you fail to see the contradiction of the NT eventhough I presents very clear biblical contradictions: Acts 10:39  and Acts 5:30 claimed that Jesus was  hanged on a tree  VERSUS Mark 15:32  and Matthew 27:41 that claimed that Jesus was crucified on the cross!

And once again I see no contradictions.  I only see your misinterpretation and your lack of knowledge.

The cross was made out of a tree.  I believe that it is Acts 5:30 that refers back to the Old Testament where it talks about the curse of hanging on a tree.  You are misinterpreting what you are reading.

AnnieTwo's statement: I haven't read all of your posts, but only a few and I am wondering if you are secure in your faith because you seem very insecure.  Are you?

My response: You are contradicting yourself by saying such thing to me. You said that you had not read all of my posts but you claimed that I was very insecure. How did you know? You are prejudging me! I am very secure for I am a Muslim and I worship Allah the true God!

No, I am not contradicting myself.  Do you see contradictions EVERYWHERE?  LOL

I noticed some of your posts because they are very long and full of colors and you continually blast Christianity.  Your posts stand out.  I read a couple and ignored the rest of what I saw.  I guessed that you were insecure of your religion because you seem to need to put another religion down.  That usually comes from insecurity.

My response: I have made so many researches about Christianity so I understand it very well! I will try my best to expose the corruption of Christianity! It is my pleasure to help you on this very site!

Have you ever studied the Holy Bible under a Christian tutor?  I would guess not since you make so many mistakes.  Why are you so intent to try to discredit Christianity?  Where are you coming from and why do you care?

I leave you to your religion and you should leave the Christians to their's.  Doesn't your Qur'an say something like that?

Annie







Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 10:12am
Are we sensing some insecurity here from you, Annie?


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 11:13am
Hi AnnieTwo,

There are quite a few Christians here, myself incuded, but this is an *INTERFAITH* forum.  All discussion should reflect both Christianity AND Islam. 

Muslims do hold to the Bible as Christians do, and using biblical scripture to support your points is not convincing.  You need to find Islamic scripture or accepted history that supports your beliefs.  It is there and readily accessible.  The Qu'ran and Hadith search functions on this website are extremely valuable in this regard.

Jesus called us to be witnesses; not lawyers or judges.  If you enjoy polemics that is dandy but don't feel compelled to be argumentative.  Many of us have found it interesting and spiritually beneficial to simply learn about Islam as it is practiced by real 21st century people.  IslamiCity is a really good place for that, and I hope you enjoy your stay.




-------------
David C.


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 11:21am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Are we sensing some insecurity here from you, Annie?


Not in the least.  My faith is rock solid.

Annie


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 11:29am
Originally posted by DavidC

Hi AnnieTwo,

There are quite a few Christians here, myself incuded, but this is an *INTERFAITH* forum.  All discussion should reflect both Christianity AND Islam. 

Muslims do hold to the Bible as Christians do, and using biblical scripture to support your points is not convincing.  You need to find Islamic scripture or accepted history that supports your beliefs.  It is there and readily accessible.  The Qu'ran and Hadith search functions on this website are extremely valuable in this regard.

Jesus called us to be witnesses; not lawyers or judges.  If you enjoy polemics that is dandy but don't feel compelled to be argumentative.  Many of us have found it interesting and spiritually beneficial to simply learn about Islam as it is practiced by real 21st century people.  IslamiCity is a really good place for that, and I hope you enjoy your stay.




Hello David,

I'm sorry if you think I have been argumentative.  When we as Christians see our faith being misinterpreted and mocked, it is our duty to correct those views.  Wouldn't you agree?

I disagree with you that Muslims "hold to the Bible" unless I am misundestanding what you mean by that.  AbRah doesn't seem to like it much.  I believe the Qur'an gives much support for the past revelations in the Torah and in the Gospel of Jesus.

I also like to learn about Islam and I have from other sources, including Muslims.  I am looking to forward to some nice exchanges with the Muslims here.

Perhaps I got the wrong impression because of AbRah's posts.  I see that many people ignore them.  Maybe that is what I should do too.

Thanks.

Annie



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 12:23pm
There is tendency lately here for people to get into purely Christian arguments.  The overall purpose of our hosts is to allow people to educate themselves about Islam, and they have no problems with us bringing in Christianity for discussion in that context.

using biblical scripture to support your points is not convincing.
For instance?  What are you referring to exactly?


If a Muslim went to your Sunday School class to learn about Christianity, wouldn't you think it odd if he refused to read the Bible and used only the Qu'ran as scripture?  Or used only the Qu'ran to refute the Bible and what you were teaching?
 


-------------
David C.


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 1:20pm

Originally posted by DavidC

There is tendency lately here for people to get into purely Christian arguments.  The overall purpose of our hosts is to allow people to educate themselves about Islam, and they have no problems with us bringing in Christianity for discussion in that context.

using biblical scripture to support your points is not convincing.
For instance?  What are you referring to exactly?


If a Muslim went to your Sunday School class to learn about Christianity, wouldn't you think it odd if he refused to read the Bible and used only the Qu'ran as scripture?  Or used only the Qu'ran to refute the Bible and what you were teaching?
 

Ah DavidC, you are a breath of fresh air at times. Thank you.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by DavidC

There is tendency lately here for people to get into purely Christian arguments.  The overall purpose of our hosts is to allow people to educate themselves about Islam, and they have no problems with us bringing in Christianity for discussion in that context.

I understand that but this is an interfaith discussion board.  What that says to me is that Muslims want to learn about Christianity as much as Christians want to learn about Islam.  I have found that Muslims are thirsty for information about Christianity.  They don't understand it.  Christians need to help them understand what they don't understand.

using biblical scripture to support your points is not convincing.
For instance?  What are you referring to exactly?


If a Muslim went to your Sunday School class to learn about Christianity, wouldn't you think it odd if he refused to read the Bible and used only the Qu'ran as scripture?  Or used only the Qu'ran to refute the Bible and what you were teaching?

Yes, I would think it odd, but I would expect him to listen to what the Sunday School teacher had to say and I would expect him to compare the verses in the Qur'an with the verses in the Holy Bible and try to understand why they conflict with each other.  We are not in Sunday School here.  We are in very advanced Bible and Qur'an study.  The Qur'an and the Holy Bible contradict each other.  We need to dig into those differences and we need to do it in a very sensitive and respectful way.  Otherwise the exchanges here are superficial and will get us no where to bridging the gap between our two religions.  This is of paramount concern in the times in which we are living now.
 


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 27 May 2006 at 9:44pm

[QUOTE=AnnieTwo] AbRah2006,

Once again you fail to see the contradiction of the NT eventhough I presents very clear biblical contradictions: Acts 10:39  and Acts 5:30 claimed that Jesus was  hanged on a tree  VERSUS Mark 15:32  and Matthew 27:41 that claimed that Jesus was crucified on the cross!

And once again I see no contradictions.  I only see your misinterpretation and your lack of knowledge.

The cross was made out of a tree.  I believe that it is Acts 5:30 that refers back to the Old Testament where it talks about the curse of hanging on a tree.  You are misinterpreting what you are reading.

My response: Is a tree a cross to you or is a cross a tree to you? Let me define what tree and cross are:

What is a tree?

Perennial woody plant with a single main http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/stem;_ylt=Ap56QvIFXnwOODmcTBEShFNTt8wF - stem (the trunk, or bole) from which branches and twigs extend to form a characteristic crown of foliage. In general, a tree differs from a shrub in that it has a single trunk, it reaches a greater height at maturity, it branches at a greater distance from the ground, and it increases in size by producing new branches and expanding in girth while a shrub often produces new shoots from ground level. Trees fall into three major divisions: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/angiospe;_ylt=AgbJp5hY_EfnOrVzEnCWk3xTt8wF - angiosperms , gymnosperms, and pteridophytes. Angiosperms are the most common type, where seeds carried in various fruits are the agents of reproduction. Trees and shrubs may be deciduous, with broad leaves that are shed at the end of the growing season, or evergreen (see http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/conifer;_ylt=AnCixq338pXxpTC0xmoMI.5Tt8wF - conifer ), with needlelike or scalelike leaves that are shed at intervals of between 2 and 10 years, thus maintaining green foliage at all seasons. Trees are identified both by the characteristic color and shape of the http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/leaf;_ylt=AqQKqSkKToneNaN4lzR3fG1Tt8wF - leaf and by their overall appearance, e.g., the degree and angle of branching, the shape of the crown, and the texture of the bark. Their age can be determined from a count of the http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/annualri;_ylt=ArM4ptMy1xFnmokPv3gDoyFTt8wF - annual rings , which represent the diameter growth of a tree each year. Besides their enormous importance in providing oxygen and moisture for the atmosphere and removing harmful carbon dioxide, trees are an important source of food, of http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/wood;_ylt=AjuoqSvoEetlg75P6R7h1stTt8wF - wood , and of numerous products (e.g., resins, rubber, quinine, turpentine, and cellulose for the manufacture of paper and various synthetic materials) derived from their wood, bark, leaves, and fruits.

What is a cross? A cross is a geometrical figure consisting of two lines or bars intersecting each other at a 90 angle, dividing one or two of the lines in half. The lines usually run vertically and horizontally; if they run diagonally, the design is technically termed a saltire.

Conclusion: The cross is not the tree and the tree is not the cross! Therefore the NT contradicts itself about the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' by saying that Jesus was hanged on a tree or crucified on the Cross!

AnnieTwo's statement: I haven't read all of your posts, but only a few and I am wondering if you are secure in your faith because you seem very insecure.  Are you?

My response: You are contradicting yourself by saying such thing to me. You said that you had not read all of my posts but you claimed that I was very insecure. How did you know? You are prejudging me! I am very secure for I am a Muslim and I worship Allah the true God!

No, I am not contradicting myself.  Do you see contradictions EVERYWHERE?  LOL

My response: Read your own statements and the my posts!

I noticed some of your posts because they are very long and full of colors and you continually blast Christianity.  Your posts stand out.  I read a couple and ignored the rest of what I saw.  I guessed that you were insecure of your religion because you seem to need to put another religion down.  That usually comes from insecurity.

My response:

You are prejudging me by your own action. I quote your statement:Your posts stand out.  I read a couple and ignored the rest of what I saw.  I guessed that you were insecure of your religion because you seem to need to put another religion down.  That usually comes from insecurity.

How can you accuse me of insecurity when you yourself ignore the rests of my posts? Lol...you are the one who feel insecure so you avoid my posts!

My response: I have made so many researches about Christianity so I understand it very well! I will try my best to expose the corruption of Christianity! It is my pleasure to help you on this very site!

Have you ever studied the Holy Bible under a Christian tutor?  I would guess not since you make so many mistakes. 

My response: What mistakes? I quote the OT and NT to refute your statements! Do you mean that your OT and NT are full of mistakes?  I think so. I have been debating against your missionaries and priests for years so meeting you is not a surprise to me. Note: I accept some contents of the OT and NT that do not contradict Islam as truth and I reject the contents of the NT and OT that contradict Islam. 

Why are you so intent to try to discredit Christianity?  Where are you coming from and why do you care?

My response:

It is the Christians such as Jerry Vines (of Southern Baptist Convention), Pat Robertson (of 700 Club), Jerry Falwell (of Christian Moral Majority) and Franklin Graham (of Samaritans Purse), all known for their bigotry degrade, insult and slander Islam in the media and on the internet everyday. And Christians are invading Muslim nations and massacring innocent Muslim babies, children, women, elderly people and unarmed men in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. The Christian actions reflect their beliefs! I have studied the OT and NT and I find that there are so many errors, contradictions etc in them! The holy Quran also say that the Bible is illegally altered by its keepers! Therefore it is my duty to expose the corruption of the Bible and Christians who insult, slander, and degrade Islam everyday!

I leave you to your religion and you should leave the Christians to their's.  Doesn't your Qur'an say something like that?

My response: Christians like Jerry Vines (of Southern Baptist Convention), Pat Robertson (of 700 Club), Jerry Falwell (of Christian Moral Majority) and Franklin Graham (of Samaritans Purse), all known for their bigotry are slandering, insulting and degrading Islam so why don't you ask them to stop doing that?



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 9:18am

Annie,

The question is: Is the Bible the Word of God?

The entire Bible is not the word of God. All the books have been writen by narrators or authors. No one really knows even the surnames of the authors.

The Bible contains The Old Testament and the New Testament. As the names imply, the OT of Christians, which is not theirs really, is old and it is clearly suggested that the New Testament is THE TESTAMENT. 

As a Muslim when I read the entire Bible, I can find the Torah parts scattered in the OT and the Injeel parts scattered in the NT. You must understand that Qur'aan does not use the term Bible at all. Yes, Qur'aan knew that the Jews and Christians had their Scriptures with them which they are still having. Qur'aan also knew well that that the Jews did not recognise the OT of the Christians as the Jews have their own Holy Scriptures. The Jewish Scriptures, of course do not have NT with them. Qur'aan knew that too.

It is not therefore right to say that the Bible is the Scripture for either the Jews or the Christians because one cannot believe in one part of the book while one denies the other part of the book. In this reagrd, it would have been a different matter if the bible had no OT and no NT and had remained the Bible in it's truest sense. One can find the words of God in the Bible but most of it are narrations and stories told by men.

If two books form part of a Holy Scripture, both have to be fully functional and applicable. Even, your goodself is prejudiced with the OT and it's readings, which have been made redundant because you have an NT, while you use the OT only to find prophecies and satements to suit and justify purposes, prophecies and claims, which you don't have in the NT.

It is as simple as that. If NT had fulfilled everything, people and learned men from various deserts and fertile lands,would not have been discussing Jesus and who he truly was, in Greek for almost four hundred years. Not just that, there is now a revival of that study by modern Western scholars themselves! Muslims just don't have any problem with Jesus. They are a happy lot as far as Jesus is concerned. Jesus is their Prophet.  



Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 10:28am
Originally posted by bmzsp



What a colorful post!  I will see if I can improve on it.

Annie,

The question is: Is the Bible the Word of God?

The entire Bible is not the word of God. All the books have been writen by narrators or authors. No one really knows even the surnames of the authors.

The entire Bible was written under the inspiration of God.  God asked men to write down their accounts.  You can find references to this in the Old Testament.  God allowed men to talk too.  The Bible is the Word of God.

The Bible contains The Old Testament and the New Testament. As the names imply, the OT of Christians, which is not theirs really, is old and it is clearly suggested that the New Testament is THE
TESTAMENT.

Oh but the Old Testament is ours.  The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old.

As a Muslim when I read the entire Bible, I can find the Torah parts scattered in the OT and the Injeel parts scattered in the NT. You must understand that Qur'aan does not use the term Bible at all. Yes, Qur'aan knew that the Jews and Christians had their Scriptures with them which they are still having. Qur'aan also knew well that that the Jews did not recognise the OT of the Christians as the Jews have their own Holy Scriptures. The Jewish Scriptures, of course do not have NT with them. Qur'aan knew that too.

I know that the Qur'an does not mention the word Bible.  Neither does the Bible.   The Qur'an mentions the Torah (Taurat?) and the Psalms and the Injeel (gospel).  I don't know what your point is that the Jews do not recognise the New Testament.  This is obvious.

It is not therefore right to say that the Bible is the Scripture for either the Jews or the Christians because one cannot believe in one part of the book while one denies the other part of the book. In this reagrd, it would have been a different matter if the bible had no OT and no NT and had remained the Bible in it's truest sense. One can find the words of God in the Bible but most of it are narrations and stories told by men.

The Bible including the Hebrew Scriptures is the Christian Holy Book.  As I mentioned above God asked men to write down the Scriptures.  The Qur'an too has words of men.

If two books form part of a Holy Scripture, both have to be fully functional and applicable. Even, your goodself is prejudiced with the OT and it's readings, which have been made redundant because you have an NT, while you use the OT only to find prophecies and satements to suit and justify purposes, prophecies and claims, which you don't have in the NT.

You are making quite a lot of assumptions here, BMZ.  I use the Old Testament to know about God, to know the history of the Jewish religion in order to discover the roots of the Christian religion.  The authors of the New Testament quote from 31 books of the Old Testament.  Jesus quoted from it.

It is as simple as that. If NT had fulfilled everything, people and learned men from various deserts and fertile lands,would not have been discussing Jesus and who he truly was, in Greek for almost four hundred years. Not just that, there is now a revival of that study by modern Western scholars themselves! Muslims just don't have any problem with Jesus. They are a happy lot as far as Jesus is concerned. Jesus is their Prophet.

Everything is not fulfilled in the New Testament.  There is more to come.  Christians don't have a problem with Yahshua either.  I'm not sure Jesus is the Muslim prophet.  Are you sure you have the right Jesus?



Now we have a red, white and blue post.


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 10:47am

AnnieTwo's statement: The entire Bible was written under the inspiration of God.  God asked men to write down their accounts.  You can find references to this in the Old Testament.  God allowed men to talk too.  The Bible is the Word of God.

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My response:

Lets us see whether the Bible is written under the inspiration of God:

1)God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
  God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

2)God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
   God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

3)God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
         Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
   God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all     
        things
         Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

4)God knows the hearts of men
         Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
        God tries men to find out what is in their heart
         Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
5)God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
   God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19

Are those contradictory biblical verse above the Word Of God written under the inspiration of God?  God will never contradict His own Word because God is the All Wise so the Bible is not His Word. So who did corrupt the Bible into a lie? Answer: The keepers of the Bible!





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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 11:16am
Originally posted by AbRah2006

AnnieTwo's statement: The entire Bible was written under the inspiration of God.  God asked men to write down their accounts.  You can find references to this in the Old Testament.  God allowed men to talk too.  The Bible is the Word of God.

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My response:

Lets us see whether the Bible is written under the inspiration of God:

1)God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
  God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

2)God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
   God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

3)God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
         Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
   God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all     
        things
         Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

4)God knows the hearts of men
         Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
        God tries men to find out what is in their heart
         Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
5)God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
   God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19

Are those contradictory biblical verse above the Word Of God written under the inspiration of God?  God will never contradict His own Word because God is the All Wise so the Bible is not His Word. So who did corrupt the Bible into a lie? Answer: The keepers of the Bible!



Yes.  I think you have been told many times that you misinterpret scripture and you don't understand what you are reading.

We see many contradictions in the Qur'an too.  Could we, like you, be interpreting them wrong?


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 12:16pm

Annie Two:

You keep saying you see many contradictions in the Quran. What are they?

I was a Christian for many years. I know the contradictions in the Bible. I know what Christianity teaches about the Trinity and the divine nature of Jesus. I know there is no true explanation for the Trinity or the belief in the Trinity since it was never spoken of in the Bible. Nor did Jesus ever claim to be God, nor was he called God by his followers or in the Bible. If you disagree with this, please bring forth the chapter and verse that states, clearly, God is a Trinity or Triune or that Jesus is God.

I have been a Muslim for 10 years, and I have yet to find a contradiction in the Quran. I did not just blindly accept Islam, nor was I born into it. I studied Islam. I am not an expert nor a scholar, but I no idiot either. I recognise a contradiction when I see one.

If you have anything from the Quran that you feel is contradictory, please bring it forward so that it can be explained.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

Annie Two:

You keep saying you see many contradictions in the Quran. What are they?

I was a Christian for many years. I know the contradictions in the Bible. I know what Christianity teaches about the Trinity and the divine nature of Jesus. I know there is no true explanation for the Trinity or the belief in the Trinity since it was never spoken of in the Bible. Nor did Jesus ever claim to be God, nor was he called God by his followers or in the Bible. If you disagree with this, please bring forth the chapter and verse that states, clearly, God is a Trinity or Triune or that Jesus is God.

I have been a Muslim for 10 years, and I have yet to find a contradiction in the Quran. I did not just blindly accept Islam, nor was I born into it. I studied Islam. I am not an expert nor a scholar, but I no idiot either. I recognise a contradiction when I see one.

If you have anything from the Quran that you feel is contradictory, please bring it forward so that it can be explained.



And I have been a Christian for many years and I see no contradictions in the Bible.  I chose Christianity and I did not chose it blindly.  And I am not an idiot either.   Now that we have that settled...

My point Mishmish is that the Christians have answers for what non-Christians see as contradictions in the Bible and Muslims have answers for what non-Muslims see as contradictions in the Qur'an.

I am a little dismayed that you as a Moderator would let the kind of posts posted by AbRah continue.  We must learn to ask questions of each other and making a big long list of "contradictions" along with rather insulting remarks is not the way to go.  These kinds of posts will not improve the relationship between Muslims and Christians and Jews.

You can google:  Contradictions in the Qur'an and come up with lists; the same way you can for the Bible.  If you haven't seen any of them, here are just a few that some say are contradictions in the Qur'an:

Which one was created first? As you will see in the verses below, Allah at one time says that Earth was created first and another time he says that the Heavens were created first.

·         Quran-2:29: It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heavens and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….

·         Quran- 79:27-30: Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth

Now, does it match modern science ? Do you believe that, Earth was created first, and after that, God created Heaven ? Does modern science tell us that ? Or that there are SEVEN firmaments (layers)? Modern science tells us that, actually there is no such thing as a firmament or any roof over us, it is only a space with no known boundary at all. These verses simply reinforce the ancient idea of a ROOF over us which is called the SKY! How funny!

Sun-set and Sun-rise

The Quran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

·         Quran-18:86: Till, when he (the traveler Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

·         Quran- 18:90: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

There are serious scientific errors here. Firstly, it is a scientifically accepted fact that the Sun never goes down into a muddy spring.  Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting “far away.”  It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second journey THE PLACE where it rises.

A Resting Place for the Sun?

·         Quran-36:38: And the Sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

·         Quran-36:39: And for the moon, We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled palm leaf.

·         Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

Allah is indeed a great scientist. Where are the Sun and the moon situated?  Can anybody tell me how they could collide/meet/overtake each other ? Are the Sun and moon neighbors to each other?  I have the answer for this error: Ancient Allah saw (through observations with the naked eye) the Sun and moon travelling from east to west seemingly in the same part of the sky and on the same path. Yet they did not collide and continued to cause day and night, etc.  Allah could hardly imagine that all these phenomena are simply due to Earth’s rotation and NOT by the Sun’s rotation.  The Sun is stationary for Earth, because the Earth is stuck in the Sun’s Gravity, just as we are stuck in the Earth’ gravity. Allah never says anywhere in the whole Quran THAT THE EARTH ROTATES. Perhaps Allah could not feel Earth’s rotation.

 A Resting Place for the Sun WAS CONFIRMED BY HADITHS (?)

·         Sahih Bukhari Hadiths: Abzur Ghifari (ra) narrated: one day Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asked me, “Abzar do you know after setting where does the Sun go?” I replied, I do not know, only Allah’s apostle could say better. Then the Prophet (SA) replied, “After setting, the Sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get permission to rise again and Qeyamot will fall upon earth”.

Can anybody tell me what it is?  It was the superstitious belief of ancient people reflected in the Quran and Hadiths by Allah. A 10-year-old boy would not tell such a fairy-tale today.

 Why Allah created Stars: 

·         Quran gives us further scientific knowledge by telling us that the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils:

·         Quran-67:5: And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…

·         Quran-37:6-8: We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.

Thus, the stars are nothing but missiles to throw at devils so that they may not eavesdrop on the heavenly council. Once again we find how Allah was high on his superstitious weirdness.

 Sky/Heaven is Nothing but A ROOF or Canopy over the Earth:

·         Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

·         Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

·         Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky ( heavens ) as roof (canopy) well guarded…

·         Quran-2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy

 Modern science tells us- the Earth is entirely surrounded by space and there is no boundary even if we go billions of trillions of miles in any direction. The question is: If there is no sky above us then how in the world does the question of pillars come in?  Do we really have a roof above us?  Is there a canopy (Shamiaa’na) above the earth? In most Bengali translations of the Quran all Maulanas write: Allah akashke samiaana bannei-ese. 

The Quran  claims Allah gives rain from above! Ordinary People consider Allah as residing  in the sky above the earth. But in cosmological science there is no up or down, that is, earth revolves and there is no fixed above or below for the earth. Every direction in outer space can be up or down. Are mountains there to prevent the earth from shaking? Give me a break!

Once again Allah considered the sky as a roof over the earth which will break/be shattered during Doomsday

·         Quran-78::19: And the heavens (sky) Shall be broken (opened) as if there were doors opens…

·         Quran-82:01: When the Sky is cleft asunder

·         Quran-69:16: And the sky will be Rent asunder, for it will that day be flimsy(soft)

·         Quran-81: 2: When the stars fall, losing their luster.

Yousuf Ali comments in his Tafsir: The beautiful blue sky overhead (which we take for granted in sunshine) will be shattered to pieces. Modern science tells us that there is no such thing as a roof, sky or any canopy over the earth, rather all around the Earth is limitless space.  Only Allah knows what will break/get shattered or will get soft/flimsy or how doors will open - there are no walls, so where will doors come from?  In some Ayats Allah threatened kafirs by saying: “I (Allah) will throw broken pieces of sky over your head.”

 Sun and Moon Rotates:

·         Quran-31: 29: Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the Sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.

·         Quran-21: 33: It is He who created the Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them swim (float) along in its own course.

Ayats mentioned above could be found over and over again and again in almost every page of the Quran.  This is because Allah, standing in the open Arab desert, saw very well that every morning the SUN was rising from the east and gradually (at the appointed time) setting to the west, and as a result, day and night follow.  Allah actually shared this misconception (the Sun moving) of pre-historic people. Every time Allah speaks of the Sun & Moon, he referred to Day & Night, as if it is due to the Sun’s movement that day and night follows.  But surprisingly, all the hypocritical Mullahs give false credit to Allah by saying: Look, the Quran described the Sun’s movement 1400 years ago, which modern science only found out now.  In the real world, the Sun takes 225 million years to make just one complete circle through the galaxy.  And obviously this movement of the Sun has nothing to do with DAY & NIGHT of the earth.  Actually, the Sun is stationary for the earth in a real sense, because the Earth is stuck in the giant gravitational force of the Sun.  The Earth also moves along with the Sun wherever it goes, just the way that we are stuck to the Earth’s gravitational force and do not feel Earth’s movement at all. Why then, was Allah referring to the Sun’s movement again and again?  I have already mentioned above, why Allah was mistaken about the Sun’s movements.  Now dishonest Mullahs are claiming that this is science here. I wonder why Allah has to mention about the Sun’s 225 million year journey to tell about day and night?   What does the Sun’s movement have to do with the day and night?

Earth is Spread Out Like a Carpet (Flat)

·         Quran-15:19: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;

·         Quran-78: 6-7: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

 Allah was sure that the Earth is flat like a carpet and that mountains are there to anchor the earth so that the Earth does not shake with us. Allah is really an excellent scientist.

 Here in this Verse, Allah Challenges People: Who Can Tell Whether the Conceived is Male or Female?

·         Quran-31:34: Verily the knowledge of the Hour is With God (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He who knows what is in the wombs of mothers….

 Who does not believe the fact that, actually mankind can predict very accurately (99.5%) when rain will fall and can predict (99.8%) the sex of the child inside a mother’s womb?   Scientists also predict that, in the next five years weather predictions will be successfully correct almost 100%. Perhaps Allah could not imagine this.

Man is Created From Clotted blood?

·         Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop (semen) a CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD then fashioned We the clot a little lump (fetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators.

(Bengali translations of the Quran read: “Zamaa’t Raokto theeke Manoosh banieesi” And this Ayat has been repeated again and again throughout the Quran)

·         Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…

·         Quran-96:2: Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

There are serious scientific problems here:

A blood clot can not grow into anything.  This idea came from the Greeks.  Aristotle erroneously believed that humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. The Quran’s assertion on the clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood which is seen to emerge (much of which comes from the mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarriage. Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.

Modern science tells us that the formation of human embryo is a seamless continuation from conception to birth, hence there are no hard-and-fast boundaries of stages as the Quran described.  The Quran described 4 stages which matches exactly with Galenic description of the development of the human embryo (which was proved wrong by modern science).

 Creation of bones and clothing of bones with flesh: According to modern embryologists including Prof. ___Moore of Canada____, the tissue from which bone originates, known as mesoderm, is the same tissue as that from which muscle (flesh) develops. Thus bone and muscles begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially (as the Quran tells us). Moreover, most of the muscle tissue that we human have is laid down before birth, but bones continue to develop and calcify (strengthen with calcium) right into one’s teenage years.   So it would be more accurate if the Quran had said that muscles started to develop at the same time as bones, but completed their development earlier. The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely wrong/false, but was directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen’s hypothesis.

Also, the idea of saying: “made into bones and clothed the bones with muscle” came from the technique of making animal statues (Moorthy) out of rod and cement or mud. People usually make the skeleton (out of rod or stick) first and, then cover it up with cement or mud. This is scarcely a scientific description of embryonic development. It is rather a description of a layman.

 Which one is correct?

·         Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion…. 

                   OR

·         Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

·         Quran-9:5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

·         Quran-47:4: When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….

·         Quran-2:191: And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

·         Quran-8: 65: O Apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight…(against) unbelievers.

Very often apologetics claim that, Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion. Yet, punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, death penalty.

In Many Ayats Allah Claimed That, He Has Given the Quran in Easy and Clear Language so that, it will not be difficult to understand by ordinary Arabs.

 ·         Quran-44:58: Verily, We have made This Quran easy in the tongue, in order that they may give heed.

No matter which translation of the Quran we read, the Quranic materials remain the same to us and every sentence is self-explanatory.  It does not take a rocket scientist to comprehend the message Allah wanted to transmit for Arabs. Yet, bigoted Mullahs will always blame translators for Quranic contradictions/errors/inconsistencies etc. and will try to find lame excuses to cover up Allah’s ignorance.

Comments:

The Holy Quran is full of inaccuracies, contradictions, inconsistencies, redundancies, a lack of chronologies or chapters, grammatical errors etc.  One can find hundreds of contradictions/errors/inconsistencies in the Holy Quran and the above mentioned ayats are just selected samples from the Quran.

Mishmish, I edited out a sentence that I thought unacceptable for this site.  I am sure that the Muslims have answers to all of these "contradictions."

As I pointed out, the Christians have answers too.

Annie

Postscript:

I know there is no true explanation for the Trinity or the belief in the Trinity since it was never spoken of in the Bible. Nor did Jesus ever claim to be God, nor was he called God by his followers or in the Bible. If you disagree with this, please bring forth the chapter and verse that states, clearly, God is a Trinity or Triune or that Jesus is God.

I didn't say that I am a Trinitarian.  Yet I believe that Jesus was the manisfestation of God.  Jesus did make claims that only God could claim.  I believe what Jesus told me.  Jesus talked about the Father and he said he was the Son of God.  He claimed to be the Messiah and he said he was our Lord and Master.  He also talked about the Holy Spirit coming after him in the Gospel of John and that happened in the Book of Acts.  I don't have to believe in the Trinity, but I do believe what Jesus told me and what he commanded me to do.

Peter said in Acts 4:

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

These verses come from one of Jesus' closest Apostles, Peter.  Notice that he said that Jesus was crucified, God raised him from the dead and that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 1:23pm

Well judging by your mockery of Allah(SWT) you have shown your true colors in this post. But I will answer you anyway, as I hate to see mockery and ignorance go unanswered. By the way, when you cut and paste, it is generally accepted that you name the source.

 

Sky/Heaven is Nothing but A ROOF or Canopy over the Earth:

·         Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

·         Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

·         Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky ( heavens ) as roof (canopy) well guarded…

·         Quran-2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy

 Modern science tells us- the Earth is entirely surrounded by space and there is no boundary even if we go billions of trillions of miles in any direction. The question is: If there is no sky above us then how in the world does the question of pillars come in?  Do we really have a roof above us?  Is there a canopy (Shamiaa’na) above the earth? In most Bengali translations of the Quran all Maulanas write: Allah akashke samiaana bannei-ese. 

The Quran  claims Allah gives rain from above! Ordinary People consider Allah as residing  in the sky above the earth. But in cosmological science there is no up or down, that is, earth revolves and there is no fixed above or below for the earth. Every direction in outer space can be up or down. Are mountains there to prevent the earth from shaking? Give me a break!

As you can clearly see from this scientific article, modern science does indeed prove that the earth is surrounded by an envelope of gas, or canopy, called the atmosphere. Please read on... This atmosphere also traps moisture, causing it to rain from the sky above....

Earth's Atmosphere

The Earth is surrounded by a blanket of air, which we call the atmosphere. It reaches over 560 kilometers (348 miles) from the surface of the Earth, so we are only able to see what occurs fairly close to the ground. Early attempts at studying the nature of the atmosphere used clues from the weather, the beautiful multi-colored sunsets and sunrises, and the twinkling of stars. With the use of sensitive instruments from space, we are able to get a better view of the functioning of our atmosphere.

Life on Earth is supported by the atmosphere, solar energy, and our planet's magnetic fields. The atmosphere absorbs the energy from the Sun, recycles water and other chemicals, and works with the electrical and magnetic forces to provide a moderate climate. The atmosphere also protects us from high-energy radiation and the frigid vacuum of space.

The envelope of gas surrounding the Earth changes from the ground up. Four distinct layers have been identified using thermal characteristics (temperature changes), chemical composition, movement, and density.

Picture of atmosphere
layers

Troposphere

The troposphere starts at the Earth's surface and extends 8 to 14.5 kilometers high (5 to 9 miles). This part of the atmosphere is the most dense. As you climb higher in this layer, the temperature drops from about 17 to -52 degrees Celsius. Almost all weather is in this region. The tropopause separates the troposphere from the next layer. The tropopause and the troposphere are known as the lower atmosphere.

Stratosphere

The stratosphere starts just above the troposphere and extends to 50 kilometers (31 miles) high. Compared to the troposphere, this part of the atmosphere is dry and less dense. The temperature in this region increases gradually to -3 degrees Celsius, due to the absorbtion of http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/universe/ultraviolet.html - ultraviolet radiation . The ozone layer, which absorbs and scatters the solar ultraviolet radiation, is in this layer. Ninety-nine percent of "air" is located in the troposphere and stratosphere. The stratopause separates the stratosphere from the next layer.

Mesosphere

The mesosphere starts just above the stratosphere and extends to 85 kilometers (53 miles) high. In this region, the temperatures again fall as low as -93 degrees Celsius as you increase in altitude. The chemicals are in an excited state, as they absorb energy from the Sun. The mesopause separates the mesophere from the thermosphere.

The regions of the stratosphere and the mesosphere, along with the stratopause and mesopause, are called the middle atmosphere by scientists. This area has been closely studied on the ATLAS Spacelab mission series.

Thermosphere

The thermosphere starts just above the mesosphere and extends to 600 kilometers (372 miles) high. The temperatures go up as you increase in altitude due to the Sun's energy. Temperatures in this region can go as high as 1,727 degrees Celsius. Chemical reactions occur much faster here than on the surface of the Earth. This layer is known as the upper atmosphere.

The upper and lower http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/space/thermo_layers.html - layers of the thermosphere will be studied more closely during the Tethered Satellite Mission (TSS-1R).

Composition of the Atmosphere

AtmosGraph.gif 6392 bytesThe atmosphere is primarily composed of Nitrogen (N2, 78%), Oxygen (O2, 21%), and Argon (Ar, 1%). A myriad of other very influential components are also present which include the water (H2O, 0 - 7%), "greenhouse" gases or Ozone (O, 0 - 0.01%), Carbon Dioxide (CO2, 0.01-0.1%),

Beyond the Atmosphere

The exosphere starts at the top to the thermosphere and continues until it merges with interplanetary gases, or space. In this region of the atmosphere, Hydrogen and Helium are the prime components and are only present at extremely low densities.

Updated December 1, 1995 http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/Shuttle/Spacelab/contacts.html - Contacts
 
 


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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 1:30pm

         Quran-2:29: It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heavens and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….

·         Quran- 79:27-30: Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built ? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth

Now, does it match modern science ? Do you believe that, Earth was created first, and after that, God created Heaven ? Does modern science tell us that ? Or that there are SEVEN firmaments (layers)? Modern science tells us that, actually there is no such thing as a firmament or any roof over us, it is only a space with no known boundary at all. These verses simply reinforce the ancient idea of a ROOF over us which is called the SKY! How funny!"

Modern science tells us that men evolved from monkeys. How funny!!

I believe that this was abswered in my last post. there are indeed layers over us. Modern science has found six. but that does not exclude the existence of a seventh which has not been discovered yet.

I would think that in a logical chronological order, God would create the earth first, then add the atmosphere to the earth. The Heavens already existed. The Ayat states that God turned to the Heavens and made them into seven firmaments. So God took what already exited and modified it to cover the earth: the atmosphere. You know, that thing that cause garavity and keeps us breathing....

Amazing that God explained this in such detail in the Quran before modern science even knew it existed.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 1:40pm

·         Quran-15:19: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;

·         Quran-78: 6-7: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

 Allah was sure that the Earth is flat like a carpet and that mountains are there to anchor the earth so that the Earth does not shake with us. Allah is really an excellent scientist.

Wide expanse does not mean flat.

I believe that the North and South Poles act as magnetic anchors to the earth, keeping it rotating on it's axis. In fact, these are the points where the earth's axis meets the earth's surface. Both poles are covered in mountains of ice. If the earth were to go off of it's axis, it would indeed shake.

Once again, truly amazing how Allah(SWT) explained this so well in the Quran.

 

 



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

Well judging by your mockery of Allah(SWT) you have shown your true colors in this post. But I will answer you anyway, as I hate to see mockery and ignorance go unanswered. By the way, when you cut and paste, it is generally accepted that you name the source.


Mishmish, you are not being fair to me.  I did not write that article.

Did you not ask these questions?

1.  You keep saying you see many contradictions in the Quran. What are they?

2. If you have anything from the Quran that you feel is contradictory, please bring it forward so that it can be explained.

I googled and picked the first site which was organized.  It does not matter where it came from.  Neither did I ask for answers to these alleged "contradictions."  There was no need for you to do so.

You missed the whole point which is that Christians and Muslims can answer the so-called allegations.

If you were offended then I apologize.  However, you must now know how Christians feel when they encounter posts like the ones from AbRah2006.

Do you see how you misread me?  Do you understand now?

Annie
 


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 1:54pm

·         Quran-78::19: And the heavens (sky) Shall be broken (opened) as if there were doors opens…

·         Quran-82:01: When the Sky is cleft asunder

·         Quran-69:16: And the sky will be Rent asunder, for it will that day be flimsy(soft)

·         Quran-81: 2: When the stars fall, losing their luster.

Yousuf Ali comments in his Tafsir: The beautiful blue sky overhead (which we take for granted in sunshine) will be shattered to pieces. Modern science tells us that there is no such thing as a roof, sky or any canopy over the earth, rather all around the Earth is limitless space.  Only Allah knows what will break/get shattered or will get soft/flimsy or how doors will open - there are no walls, so where will doors come from?  In some Ayats Allah threatened kafirs by saying: “I (Allah) will throw broken pieces of sky over your head.”

Well, I have already shown that modern science does prove we have a roof over our heads. Modern science has also given us the means to rent the sky asunder when scientists split the atom, actually split matter itself,  and created the atomic bomb and then the nuclear bomb.

The sky is getting soft. Again modern science confirms what the Quran states. The ozone layer has been depleted, and there is in fact an ozone hole in the atmosphere over Antartica. The sky is literally being rent asunder by pollutants.

Once again, the Word of God has explained something in a text 1400 years ago that modren science didn't discover until last century.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 1:55pm

AbRah2006

1)God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
  God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

These "contradictions" are easily resolved if one accepts the Trinitarian view of God. Allow me to repost a reply which addressed a similar point, and in doing so, resolves this contradiction....

In a previous post, someone attempts to discredit the deity of Christ by appealing to John 1:18:

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (KJV)

He notes:

"If no man has seen God, then logically Jesus was not God, since there is no secular record of an outbreak of sightlessness in Judea in Jesus' time".

How shall the Christian respond? Well, let's consider the statement that "No man hath seen God." Consider the following verses from the Old Testament (OT):

Sarai says "You are the God who sees me," for she said,
"I have now seen the One who sees me" (Gen 16:13)

"So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Gen 32:30)

"Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel." (Ex 24: 9-10)

"they saw God" (Ex 24:11)

"We have seen God!" (Judges 13:22) Now while this person's logic seems to rule out that Jesus was God, it also means that the Bible contains a very significant contradiction. If no one has seen God, how is it that Sarai, Jacob, Moses et al, and Monoah and his wife are said to have seen God?

Actually, this is a problem only for those who deny the deity of Christ while claiming to follow the teachings of the Bible. Let's look again at John 1:18:

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only (or Only Begotten), who is at the Father's side, has made him known."

I think it is clear that John is speaking of the Father as the one who has not been seen. To paraphrase it, "No one has ever seen God, but the Son, who is at His side, has made Him known". This interpretation not only seems to follow naturally from this verse, but is also quite consistent with the Logos doctrine taught in John 1. Recall, it is the Logos who mediates between God and man, and who reveals God to man. Jesus would later say, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." Prior to the Incarnation of the Son, no one had seen the Father, for it is through the Son that the Father is revealed.

So for the Trinitarian, there is no Bible contradiction. No one ever saw God the Father, and what Sarai, Jacob, Moses, etc saw was God the Son. This can be seen from many perspectives, but let's simply consider one from Isaiah 6. Isaiah "saw the Lord" (v 1). Seraphs were praising the "Lord Almighty" (v 3). Isaiah is overwhelmed and responds, "Woe to me, I am ruined. For I am a man of unclean lips [this rules him out as the servant in Isaiah 53], and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty" (v 5). Later, we read:

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" (vs. 8).

Again, the plurality of God is implied. Isaiah asks God to send him, and then God gave him a message to preach.

Now it's time to jump to John 12:37-41. John claims that the peoples failure to believe in Jesus was a fulfillment of these teachings Isaiah received from the Lord in Isaiah 6. Then note verse 41.

"Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him".

Here is a clear example where John equates Jesus with the Lord Almighty seen by Isaiah! This all fits together beautifully. Isaiah sees the Lord Almighty, yet he sees Jesus' glory. Jesus speaks as a plural being (who will go for US). It is the Son who is seen, not the Father.

Thus, John 1:18 does not mean that Jesus was not God, it only means He is not the Father. This verse presents no problems for the Trinitarian, and in fact, when studied, serves as a great launching point for finding Christ in the OT. Prior to the Logos dwelling amongst us and revealing the Father to us, no one had seen the Father. But because of the Incarnation, we can now cry, "Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15) and "Our Father who art in heaven"! Those who see the Son can see the Father.

 

2)God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
   God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

 

"In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." (Ex. 31:17]

God is never tired and never rests

"The everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary." (Is 40:28)]

According to Haley, and many others, the term "rested and was refreshed' is simply a vivid Oriental way of saying that God ceased from the work of creation and took delight in surveying the work.

3)God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
         Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
   God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all     
        things
         Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

 

God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things

"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden." (Gen 3:8)

"But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that men were building." (Gen 11:5)

"The the LORD said, 'The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sins so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." (Gen 18:20-21) I accept the teaching that God is everywhere present and sees and knows all things. So let's consider the instances in Genesis that are cited:

Gen 3:8"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden."

Let's also add the next verse to strengthen the critics case: "But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

How could one hide from God? Why does God need to ask this question?

First, what Adam and Eve could have hid from is merely the visible and special manifestation of the Lord. As for God's seeming ignorance, anyone with children can recognize the utility of such questions. If a child is known to have broken a lamp, it is better to question the child than to simply accuse her. The former approach enables the child to take an active role in her wrong-doing, and allows for her to apologize. Note that God asked several questions:

"Where are you?....Who told you that you were naked?....Have you eaten of the fruit of the tree?"

Note the response. Instead of begging for mercy and confessing their sins, both the man and woman justified themselves and sought to put the blame on another. So typically human! By asking these questions, God enabled the man and woman to either freely repent or to firmly establish their sinfulness. Thus, while the critic thinks these are questions demonstrating ignorance, such an interpretation can be easily dismissed in light of the above considerations. What of the others?

"But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that men were building." (Gen 11:5)

"The the LORD said, 'The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sins so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." (Gen 18:20-21) These look like common human notions of someone coming down to check out what is going on. And perhaps, that's how the writer of these accounts understood God. But perhaps there is also another layer to the account. Obviously, it teaches God's transcendence. But it also demonstrates God's interest. He is not an aloof sky-god. And he doesn't watch from afar. He gets right down into human history.

But there is more. Maimonides once noted that just as the word 'ascend', when applied to the mind, implies noble and elevated objects, the word 'descend' implies turning one's mind to things of lowly and unworthy character. Thus, God is not "coming down" in a physical sense, but in a "mental" sense, where he turns his attention to the sinful activity of men and invokes judgment. Of course, it is hard to describe God in human language, but I think the above account is not unreasonable.

Since these supposed contradictions depend on a particular interpretation which is (or at the very least may be) in error, no contradiction has been established.

4)God knows the hearts of men
         Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3

        God tries men to find out what is in their heart
         Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

God tries men to find out what is in their heart

"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God." (Gen 22:12)

"Remember how the LORD your God lead you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and test you in order to know what was in your hearts." (Deut 8:2)

"The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deut 13:3) We'll assume that God knows the hearts of men, so let us determine if the above three verses are necessarily contradictions.

Could it be that these three instances simply serve to reveal and verify to man that which is already known by God? Anyone who has ever had a college chemistry course can probably relate to the following. A chemistry professor comes into class, and says, "I will now add acetic acid to this compound to see what happens." The professor already knows what will happen! After the experiment, he might even add, "I now know that such and such results will occur after adding the acid." Here he is simply putting himself in the place of the class, and speaking for them.

What the three verses could be showing is that once again, God is not some aloof sky-god who merely dictates. Instead, he relates. By asking questions, by claiming to have found something, he relates and allows man to play an active, not passive, role in the relationship. For example, Abraham now knew that God knew his heart. And he also knew God's knowledge was true in light of the 'test' that he just went through.

In this supposed contradiction, along with the one immediately prior, the critic perceives ignorance on the part of God because of a belief that an omniscient God ought to dictate. Why can't an omniscient God refrain from dictating, and simply relate in a way which intimately involves humanity?


5)God is all powerful

         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
   God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19

God is not all powerful

"The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots." 9Judg 1:19)

This is obviously not a contradiction. John Baskette notes that the critic is "reading the verse as saying that the LORD ... he ... could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley." He adds: "This is an egregiously bad misreading of the text. The 'he' is Judah! not the LORD. That should be obvious to even the most obtuse objector."

Annie



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 2:00pm

The Quran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

·         Quran-18:86: Till, when he (the traveler Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

·         Quran- 18:90: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

These Ayats are talking about Zul-qarnain. He was travelling and he could see the sun setting in the distance over a body of water. He travelled to where it looked as though the sun were setting in the water.

This is not literal. If you have ever seen a sunset or sunrise over a body of water you would know that it looks as if the sun is rising or falling into the water.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 2:08pm
Here in this Verse, Allah Challenges People: Who Can Tell Whether the Conceived is Male or Female?

·         Quran-31:34: Verily the knowledge of the Hour is With God (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He who knows what is in the wombs of mothers….

 Who does not believe the fact that, actually mankind can predict very accurately (99.5%) when rain will fall and can predict (99.8%) the sex of the child inside a mother’s womb?   Scientists also predict that, in the next five years weather predictions will be successfully correct almost 100%. Perhaps Allah could not imagine this.

The knowledge of the hour pertains to the Hour of the Day of Judgement. No one knows when the Day of Judgement will occur except God.

God does allow it to rain, He invented the atmosphere of the earth which allows rain to occur. God also knows the sex of the unborn child. Scientists may be able to predict such things, but they will never be 100% correct. And their knowledge is from Allah to begin with.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 2:35pm

A Resting Place for the Sun?

·         Quran-36:38: And the Sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

·         Quran-36:39: And for the moon, We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled palm leaf.

·         Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

Allah is indeed a great scientist. Where are the Sun and the moon situated?  Can anybody tell me how they could collide/meet/overtake each other ? Are the Sun and moon neighbors to each other?  I have the answer for this error: Ancient Allah saw (through observations with the naked eye) the Sun and moon travelling from east to west seemingly in the same part of the sky and on the same path. Yet they did not collide and continued to cause day and night, etc.  Allah could hardly imagine that all these phenomena are simply due to Earth’s rotation and NOT by the Sun’s rotation.  The Sun is stationary for Earth, because the Earth is stuck in the Sun’s Gravity, just as we are stuck in the Earth’ gravity. Allah never says anywhere in the whole Quran THAT THE EARTH ROTATES. Perhaps Allah could not feel Earth’s rotation.

I think this translation is more poetic on this subject:

36:38 And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

This is speaking of the period of day, and the period of night. If you look at the Ayat before you will see:

36:37 And a Sign for them is the Night: We withdraw therefrom the Day, and behold they are plunged in darkness;

The moon has different phases, full like a young girl, to waning like a shriveled palm leaf. The Arabic language is poetic, after all.

 Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. This is kinda self explanatory.

This is actually explaining the day and night and how one follows the other based on the orbit of the planets and stars. The language is very poetic, but the message is the same.

It has only recently been discovered by modern science that the sun does have an orbit around the Milky Way. Yet, God states this in the Quran over 1400 years ago.

 



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 2:45pm

 Sun and Moon Rotates:

·         Quran-31: 29: Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the Sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.

·         Quran-21: 33: It is He who created the Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them swim (float) along in its own course.

Ayats mentioned above could be found over and over again and again in almost every page of the Quran.  This is because Allah, standing in the open Arab desert, saw very well that every morning the SUN was rising from the east and gradually (at the appointed time) setting to the west, and as a result, day and night follow.  Allah actually shared this misconception (the Sun moving) of pre-historic people. Every time Allah speaks of the Sun & Moon, he referred to Day & Night, as if it is due to the Sun’s movement that day and night follows.  But surprisingly, all the hypocritical Mullahs give false credit to Allah by saying: Look, the Quran described the Sun’s movement 1400 years ago, which modern science only found out now.  In the real world, the Sun takes 225 million years to make just one complete circle through the galaxy.  And obviously this movement of the Sun has nothing to do with DAY & NIGHT of the earth.  Actually, the Sun is stationary for the earth in a real sense, because the Earth is stuck in the giant gravitational force of the Sun.  The Earth also moves along with the Sun wherever it goes, just the way that we are stuck to the Earth’s gravitational force and do not feel Earth’s movement at all. Why then, was Allah referring to the Sun’s movement again and again?  I have already mentioned above, why Allah was mistaken about the Sun’s movements.  Now dishonest Mullahs are claiming that this is science here. I wonder why Allah has to mention about the Sun’s 225 million year journey to tell about day and night?   What does the Sun’s movement have to do with the day and night?

This is science here. These Ayats clearly state that the sun and the moon have their own orbit. There is nothing in these Ayats to suggest that Allah(SWT) meant otherwise.

"Why then, was Allah referring to the Sun’s movement again and again?"

I would say that just because modern science just discovered this fact does not mean that God did not already know it. God knows everything, certainly more than modern science. Do you doubt that God knows more than man?

Nowhere, in any other religious text was it mentioned that the sun has its own orbit. Actually, instead of disproving the divinity of the Quran, this goes a long way toward proving it is the Word of God.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 3:12pm
Which one is correct?

·         Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion…. 

There is no compulsion in religion. This is written in the Quran numerous times, God will only accept the belief of someone who is sincere.

                   OR

·         Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

If young adult males refused to accept Islam and refused to fight with the Muslim armies, yet continued to live under Muslim rule and accept the proptection of the Muslim army they had to pay a tax. If they did not want to pay the tax, they could fight with the army. It was their choice.

·         Quran-9:5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

Here is the complete Ayat as well as the preceeding Ayats which explain that the Muslims had entered into a with pagans and the pagans broke the treaty. The Muslims were commanded by Allah to wait four months to allow the pagans to recommit themselves to the treaty. If they failed to do so within the four month time period, the Muslims were to go to war, but even then, if anyone of the enemy came to the Muslims and repented, they were to be forgiven. Even on the battlefield.

9:1 A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
9:2 Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
9:3 And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
9:4 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

·         Quran-47:4: When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….

A better translation:
47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Of course if you meet someone in war you are going to fight them. Isn't this what war is, fighting?  I see no compulsion in this Ayat...

·         Quran-2:191: And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Here is the preceeding Ayat and a better translation. Allah is saying to fight those who fight you. Don't start the fighting, but if you have to, defend yourselves:

2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

·         Quran-8: 65: O Apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight…(against) unbelievers.

Here is this Ayat in its correct context. Its very self explanatory, but I have highlighted important points in red.



8:56 They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah..


8:57 If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.


8:58 If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.


8:59 Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).


8:60 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.


8:61 But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).


8:62 Should they intend to deceive thee,- verily Allah sufficeth thee: He it is That hath strengthened thee with His aid and with (the company of) the Believers;


8:63 And (moreover) He hath put affection between their hearts: not if thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, couldst thou have produced that affection, but Allah hath done it: for He is Exalted in might, Wise.


8:64 O Messenger. sufficient unto thee is Allah,- (unto thee) and unto those who follow thee among the Believers.



8:65 O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

I have other things I need to do. If I have missed anything I will respond later.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

The Quran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

·         Quran-18:86: Till, when he (the traveler Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…

·         Quran- 18:90: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

These Ayats are talking about Zul-qarnain. He was travelling and he could see the sun setting in the distance over a body of water. He travelled to where it looked as though the sun were setting in the water.

This is not literal. If you have ever seen a sunset or sunrise over a body of water you would know that it looks as if the sun is rising or falling into the water.

Please tell us who "Zul-quarnain" is...



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 5:12pm

We don't really know who he was. There were so many two-horned helmet wearers.

He was a man who was full of vision and knowledge and utilised it best in the service of God.

But we do know now that he was definintely not Alexander the Great for he has turned out to be a real bad man according to History. 

I will check out with some Jewish or Christian experts in genealogy, who would somehow or anyhow tell us more about this man. Even if they cannot find his true genealogy, they would write out one for him.



Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by bmzsp

We don't really know who he was. There were so many two-horned helmet wearers.

He was a man who was full of vision and knowledge and utilised it best in the service of God.

But we do know now that he was definintely not Alexander the Great for he has turned out to be a real bad man according to History. 

I will check out with some Jewish or Christian experts in genealogy, who would somehow or anyhow tell us more about this man. Even if they cannot find his true genealogy, they would write out one for him.

Some scholars believe he might be Cyrus, a king of ancient Iran, who seems to fit the criteria put forth in the Quran and was spoken of as a righteous man in the Bible.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by bmzsp

We don't really know who he was. There were so many two-horned helmet wearers.

He was a man who was full of vision and knowledge and utilised it best in the service of God.

But we do know now that he was definintely not Alexander the Great for he has turned out to be a real bad man according to History. 

I will check out with some Jewish or Christian experts in genealogy, who would somehow or anyhow tell us more about this man. Even if they cannot find his true genealogy, they would write out one for him.

Youve made quite a few assumptions in your reply

 

First of all, we do know who is being discussed in sura 18, by simply examining the classic definition:

 

 

qarnayni definition:

 

The two horned one.  It comes from the root qarana, which means the part of the head of a human being which in an animal is the place whence the horn grows; or the side, or upper side, of the head; or more exactly the temporal ridge which is the middle and main part of the head (i.e. of the cranium), on the right and on the left.  One who opposes or contends with another in science or in fight, an opponent; a competitor; an adversary; an antagonist; or ones equal or match or fellow.  Ones equal in age.  To join on thing to another, couple.  People of one time succeeding another among whom is a prophet, or class of learned men, whether its years be many or few.  Of a desert, the most elevated part.  A pod like that of the locust tree.  An issue of sweat.  A cord of twisted bark which is bound upon the neck of each of the plowing bulls.

 

References:

An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2987 - 2988

The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 452 - 453

 

 

Thus, to state that it refers to a two-horned helmet wearer, holds no merit whatsoever.

 

Nor does it make sense to limit this to representing one man.

 

I agree that Alexander the Great has no bearing on it either

 

Since we are already cognizant that the Koran is comprised of >50% Biblical Book of Revelation material, and, taking into consideration the contextual usage of the term alqarnayni can only refer the Second Beast (from the Earth) as described to us in the Book of Revelation.

 

Comments?

 

 

 

 



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 5:50pm

Dear Mishmish
You are doing a great job! May Allah bless and reward your family and you for your good deeds...Ameen. You have refuted all of the slanders of AnnieTwo. I will compare the Quran with the Bible because AnnieTwo has slandered Quran and Allah by degrading them.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 6:19pm

Man is Created From Clotted blood?

·         Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop (semen) a CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD then fashioned We the clot a little lump (fetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators.

(Bengali translations of the Quran read: “Zamaa’t Raokto theeke Manoosh banieesi” And this Ayat has been repeated again and again throughout the Quran)

·         Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…

·         Quran-96:2: Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

There are serious scientific problems here:

A blood clot can not grow into anything.  This idea came from the Greeks.  Aristotle erroneously believed that humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. The Quran’s assertion on the clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood which is seen to emerge (much of which comes from the mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarriage. Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.

Modern science tells us that the formation of human embryo is a seamless continuation from conception to birth, hence there are no hard-and-fast boundaries of stages as the Quran described.  The Quran described 4 stages which matches exactly with Galenic description of the development of the human embryo (which was proved wrong by modern science).

 Creation of bones and clothing of bones with flesh: According to modern embryologists including Prof. ___Moore of Canada____, the tissue from which bone originates, known as mesoderm, is the same tissue as that from which muscle (flesh) develops. Thus bone and muscles begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially (as the Quran tells us). Moreover, most of the muscle tissue that we human have is laid down before birth, but bones continue to develop and calcify (strengthen with calcium) right into one’s teenage years.   So it would be more accurate if the Quran had said that muscles started to develop at the same time as bones, but completed their development earlier. The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely wrong/false, but was directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen’s hypothesis.

Also, the idea of saying: “made into bones and clothed the bones with muscle” came from the technique of making animal statues (Moorthy) out of rod and cement or mud. People usually make the skeleton (out of rod or stick) first and, then cover it up with cement or mud. This is scarcely a scientific description of embryonic development. It is rather a description of a layman

I don't know who this person is quoting as far as there being no stages in the development of an embryo, this is totally incorrect. There are definite stages that start from the time the oocyte becomes functional when the male gametocyte attaches to it.

This is a link to an excellent site that shows all of the "stages" of embryonic development. http://www.visembryo.com/baby/ - http://www.visembryo.com/baby/

Please note, the "clot of blood":

7 - 12 days post-ovulation

Trophoblast cells engulf and destroy cells of the uterine lining creating blood pools, both stimulating new capillaries to grow and foretelling the growth of the placenta. The inner cell mass divides, rapidly forming a two-layered disc. The top layer of cells will become the embryo and amniotic cavity, while the lower cells will become the yolk sac.

Also, please note the stages in which the embryo develops:

Endoderm that will form the lining of lungs, tongue, tonsils, urethra and associated glands, bladder and digestive tract.

Mesoderm that will form the muscles, bones, lymphatic tissue, spleen, blood cells, heart, lungs, and reproductive and excretory systems.

Ectoderm that will form the skin, nails, hair, lens of eye, lining of the internal and external ear, nose, sinuses, mouth, anus, tooth enamel, pituitary gland, mammary glands, and all parts of the nervous system.

As stated in the Quran, the bones or precursors to the bones form first, then the skin. All of this was written in the Quran 1400 years ago. In clear language with detail.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 6:42pm

Assalamu Alaikum:

I have answered the "contradictions" that were listed. Although they were not contradictions as they did not prove any incompatibility within the written word of the Quran, just ideas that the author thought were scientifically incorrect.

A contradiction would be more along the lines of: to whom did Peter deny knowledge of Jesus? All from the Bible, all supposedly accounts of the same event, four different stories.

Can someone explain the contradiction here?

Matthew 26: 69- 73: Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all.... And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied .... And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech betrayeth thee.

Mark 14:66-71: And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest: And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth. But he denied..... And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew. And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them. And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto. But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

Luke 22:54-60: Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off. ... But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him. And he denied him.... And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not. And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean. And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest.

John 18:15-27: And Simon Peter followed Jesus ... and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. ... Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.... And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not. One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.


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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 7:07pm

Dear Mishmish
You are doing a great job! May Allah bless and reward your family and you for your good deeds...Ameen. You have refuted all of the slanders of AnnieTwo. I will compare the Quran with the Bible because AnnieTwo has slandered Quran and Allah by degrading them.




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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by AbRah2006

Dear Mishmish
You are doing a great job! May Allah bless and reward your family and you for your good deeds...Ameen. You have refuted all of the slanders of AnnieTwo. I will compare the Quran with the Bible because AnnieTwo has slandered Quran and Allah by degrading them.


Assalamu Alaikum:

All knowledge is from Allah(SWT). I know for a fact this is true because I was remembering science stuff I hadn't thought about for years and years.

I am not sure Annie meant to slander, or was just doing a cut and paste on the first article she came accross. I hope it was the latter.

I would hope that someone could point out step by step the actual literary contradictions in the Bible, and correct them if able.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by AnnieTwo

[QUOTE=AbRah2006]

AnnieTwo's statement: The entire Bible was written under the inspiration of God.  God asked men to write down their accounts.  You can find references to this in the Old Testament.  God allowed men to talk too.  The Bible is the Word of God.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

My response:

Lets us see whether the Bible is written under the inspiration of God:

1)God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
  God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

2)God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
   God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

3)God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
         Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
   God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all     
        things
         Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

4)God knows the hearts of men
         Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
        God tries men to find out what is in their heart
         Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
5)God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
   God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19

Are those contradictory biblical verse above the Word Of God written under the inspiration of God?  God will never contradict His own Word because God is the All Wise so the Bible is not His Word. So who did corrupt the Bible into a lie? Answer: The keepers of the Bible!



Yes.  I think you have been told many times that you misinterpret scripture and you don't understand what you are reading.

My response: (1) What is the meaning of contradict? To assert or express the opposite of a statement.

(2)What is the meaning of contradiction? Contradiction means inconsistency , discrepancy, something that contains contradictory elements , opposition to two conflicting forces or ideas. For example: 'He is brave' and He is not brave' is a contradiction!

According to the definitions above the biblical verses above have clearly contradicted each other so the Bible is not the Word of God.

We see many contradictions in the Qur'an too.  Could we, like you, be interpreting them wrong?

Answer: Mismish had refuted your wild claims!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 9:15pm

AP,

The second line in my post is the clear answer.

Now to your comment: "Since we are already cognizant that the Koran is comprised of >50% Biblical Book of Revelation material, and, taking into consideration the contextual usage of the term alqarnayni can only refer the Second Beast (from the Earth) as described to us in the Book of Revelation."

The Book of Revelation is just John's wild dreams and imaginations. We have to see whether anything from it comes true or not. I don't know how it made into the NT?



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 28 May 2006 at 9:52pm

As a response to AnnieTwo's wild claims, I will compare the Holy Quran with the Bible to see which one is the truth of God:

THE SPHERICAL SHAPE OF THE EARTH:

The earth according to the Bible:

The Bible says that the earth is flat!

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV) 

 Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV) 

The Bible claims that Earth has four ends and four corners.  Nobody can ever think a ball or a cycle to have corners and ends!  Only flat items can have corners and ends, and this is exactly what the bible is trying to express regarding the shape of the earth.  The earth is not flat, as once thought and it has no corners or ends at all.

The earth according to the Holy Quran:

In early times, people believed that the earth is flat. For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597.

Consider the following Quranic verse regarding the alternation of day and night:

Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night? [Al-Quran 31:29]

Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.

The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth:

He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions): He Makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night. [AI-Quran 39:5]

The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning to coil-the way a turban is wound around the head. The coiling of the day and night can only take place if the earth is spherical.

Conclusion:

We know that God is the All Wise so:

(1)The Holy Quran is the Word of God for it is correct in explaining the earth  eventhough there was no modern science during Muhammad's era.

(2)The Bible is the words of men who wrote the Bible and contradicted science etc!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 4:22am

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1 - Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam : Abdullah al-Faruq Formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church says:

1) "Not a single one could explain how Jesus was supposedly God, and how, at the same time, he was supposedly the Father, Son and Holy Ghost wrapped up into one and yet was not a part of the trinity. Several preachers finally had to concede that they did not understand it but that we were simply required to believe it."

2)"Cases of adultery and fornication went unpunished. Some Christian preachers were hooked on drugs and had destroyed their lives and the lives of their families. Leaders of some churches were found to be homosexuals. There were pastors even guilty of committing adultery with the young daughters of other church members. All of this coupled with a failure to receive answers to what I thought were valid questions was enough to make me seek a change. That change came when I accepted a job in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia."

3) "I was then given a video cassette of a debate between Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and Reverend Jimmy Swaggart. After seeing the debate I immediately became a Muslim." (To view this debate click http://www.islam.org/audio/ra622_4.ram" target=w2>here requires RealPlayer). It is an interesting debate! 

4) "I was taken to the office of Shaykh 'Abdullah bin 'Abdul-'Azeez bin Baz to officially declare my acceptance of Islam." 

5) "It is my prayer that Allah will forgive us all of our ignorance and guide us to the path leading to Paradise. All praise is due to Allah. May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon His last messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his family, companions, and those following true guidance."



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 5:00am
Originally posted by bmzsp

The Book of Revelation is just John's wild dreams and imaginations.



Not so.  Most of the events described in Revelation have already happened.

The Book of Revelation is an allegorical work, but the commonly accepted theory is that the beast with seven heads refers to Rome and the seven hills, the number 666 refers to Nero, etc. 

For an in-depth, orthodox interpretation of Revelation see:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm



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David C.


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 5:02am
Originally posted by Mishmish

Originally posted by AbRah2006

Dear Mishmish
You are doing a great job! May Allah bless and reward your family and you for your good deeds...Ameen. You have refuted all of the slanders of AnnieTwo. I will compare the Quran with the Bible because AnnieTwo has slandered Quran and Allah by degrading them.


Assalamu Alaikum:

All knowledge is from Allah(SWT). I know for a fact this is true because I was remembering science stuff I hadn't thought about for years and years.

I am not sure Annie meant to slander, or was just doing a cut and paste on the first article she came accross. I hope it was the latter.

I would hope that someone could point out step by step the actual literary contradictions in the Bible, and correct them if able.



Mishmish,

I followed your instructions.  You wanted to know what some call contradictions in the Qur'an.  I already told you I googled and chose the first organized site I came across.  I also mentioned I had to edit something out that I thought inappropriate for this site. 
I would hardly slander the Qur'an on an Islamic site.

Mishmish, I feel like you set me up on purpose.  You created the circumstances and I fell for it.  I am very upset about this incident.  I woke up in the middle of night thinking about it.  I am very upset.

Annie


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 5:26am
annie - youd be even more upset if you were living in a muslim country, because youd be sitting in jail for mocking the quran.  this is what they do

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 5:29am
Originally posted by Mishmish

Assalamu Alaikum:

I have answered the "contradictions" that were listed. Although they were not contradictions as they did not prove any incompatibility within the written word of the Quran, just ideas that the author thought were scientifically incorrect.

A contradiction would be more along the lines of: to whom did Peter deny knowledge of Jesus? All from the Bible, all supposedly accounts of the same event, four different stories.

Can someone explain the contradiction here?

Matthew 26: 69- 73: Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all.... And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied .... And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech betrayeth thee.

Mark 14:66-71: And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest: And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth. But he denied..... And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew. And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them. And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto. But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

Luke 22:54-60: Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off. ... But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him. And he denied him.... And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not. And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean. And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest.

John 18:15-27: And Simon Peter followed Jesus ... and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. ... Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.... And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not. One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
where is the contradiction here?


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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 5:59am
Originally posted by Mishmish

Assalamu Alaikum:

I have answered the "contradictions" that were listed. Although they were not contradictions as they did not prove any incompatibility within the written word of the Quran, just ideas that the author thought were scientifically incorrect.

A contradiction would be more along the lines of: to whom did Peter deny knowledge of Jesus? All from the Bible, all supposedly accounts of the same event, four different stories.

Can someone explain the contradiction here?

Matthew 26: 69- 73: Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all.... And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied .... And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech betrayeth thee.

Mark 14:66-71: And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest: And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth. But he denied..... And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew. And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them. And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto. But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

Luke 22:54-60: Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off. ... But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him. And he denied him.... And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not. And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean. And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest.

John 18:15-27: And Simon Peter followed Jesus ... and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. ... Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.... And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not. One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.


<>Mishmish,  <>There is no contradiction once you understand how the Gospels were written.  Each author had his own sources and some of them were the same and some of them were different.  Each author presented what the witness said to him.  That is why you will see slight differences in the reporting.  This fact actually adds to the authenticity of the report.   What we should be concerned about is that Peter denied knowing Jesus and this is indicated in all of the accounts. 

You will find differences in the Qur'an of the same event.  Please compare the account of Moses in the burning bush:  Compare Surah 20:9-24, with 27:7-14, with 28:29-33; Compare Moses' childhood in Surah 20:38-40 with 28:7,11-13.  Compare the story of Israel and obedience in Surah 2:58-59 with 7:161-162.

<>Ali's footnote: These verse, 58-59, maybe compared to vii. 161-162. There are two verbal differences. Here (ii. 58) we have "enter the town" and in vii. 161 we have "dwell in the town." Again in ii. 59 here we have "infringed (Our command)," and in vii. 162, we have "transgressed." The verbal differences make no difference to the sense. (Ali, The Holy Quran-Translation and Commentary, p. 31, f. 72) 

<>Compare the story of Moses and the sorcerers, see Surah 20:65-73 and compare with 26:41-52 (Cf. 7:111-126). 

Other examples are Surah 11:77-83 with 15:61-75 and 29:32-34, as well as 26:160-175 with 27:54-58 and 29:28-30.

Annie



Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 6:11am
Originally posted by AnnieTwo



"Perhaps Allah could not feel Earth’s rotation"....
"Once again we find how Allah was high on his superstitious weirdness"....
"Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages."....

(and many such statements....)



This is what we would include in mockery of Allah and His Messenger. You can ask your questions if you have doubts, but such comments will not be tolerated. Even if they were "copied" from a site.
Peace.



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Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 7:31am
 

Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam:

Dr Jerald F.Dirks Former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church. He holds a Master's degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in Psychology from the University of Denver. Author of The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam (ISBN 1-59008-002-5 - Amana Publications, 2001). He has published over 60 articles in the field of clinical psychology, and over 150 articles on Arabian horses

I was a Christian, or so I said.  After all, I had been born into a Christian family, had been given a Christian upbringing, had attended church and Sunday school every Sunday as a child, had graduated from a prestigious seminary, and was an ordained minister in a large Protestant denomination.  However, I was also a Christian:  who didnt believe in a triune godhead or in the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him; who knew quite well how the Bible had been corrupted; who had said the Islamic testimony of faith in my own carefully parsed words; who had fasted during Ramadan; who was saying Islamic prayers five times a day; and who was deeply impressed by the behavioral examples I had witnessed in the Muslim community, both in America and in the Middle East.

Not too many months after our return to America from the Middle East, a neighbor invited us over to his house, saying that he wanted to talk with us about our conversion to Islam.  He was a retired Methodist minister, with whom I had had several conversations in the past.  Although we had occasionally talked superficially about such issues as the artificial construction of the Bible from various, earlier, independent sources, we had never had any in-depth conversation about religion.  I knew only that he appeared to have acquired a solid seminary education, and that he sang in the local church choir every Sunday.


My initial reaction was, Oh, oh, here it comes.  Nonetheless, it is a Muslims duty to be a good neighbor, and it is a Muslims duty to be willing to discuss Islam with others.  As such, I accepted the invitation for the following evening, and spent most of the waking part of the next 24 hours contemplating how best to approach this gentleman in his requested topic of conversation.  The appointed time came, and we drove over to our neighbors.  After a few moments of small talk, he finally asked why I had decided to become a Muslim.  I had waited for this question, and had my answer carefully prepared.  As you know with your seminary education, there were a lot of non-religious considerations which led up to and shaped the decisions of the Council of Nicaea.  He immediately cut me off with a simple statement:  You finally couldnt stomach the polytheism anymore, could you?  He knew exactly why I was a Muslim, and he didnt disagree with my decision!  For himself, at his age and at his place in life, he was electing to be an atypical Christian.  Allah willing, he has by now completed his journey from cross to crescent.    



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 8:21am

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=250 - http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=250 - Dr. Gary Miller  was a former Christian missionary who have embraced Islam:

Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar) shows how we can establish true faith by setting standards of truth. He illustrates a simple but effective method of finding out the right direction in our search for truth.


G.R. Miller is a mathematician and a theologian. He was active in Christian missionary work at a particular point of his life but he soon began to discover many inconsistencies in the Bible. In 1978, he happened to read the Qur'an expecting that it, too, would contain a mixture of truth and falsehood.


He discovered to his amazement that the message of the Qur'an was precisely the same as the essence of truth that he had distilled from the Bible. He became a Muslim and since then has been active in giving public presentations on Islam including radio and television appearances. He is also the author of several articles and publications about Islam.

Please visit   http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=lessons&lesson_id=297&scholar_id=30 - http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=lessons&l esson_id=297&scholar_id=30   if you wish to hear a lecture about The Devinity of Jesus.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 10:47am

Is the Bible or the Holy Quran the Word of God?

Lets us compare the Holy Quran with the Bible:

The Bible states that "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.   (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

Comment: According to science the earth moves in an orbit around the sun.

Now lets us see what the Holy Quran says about the earth:

 The Bible states that God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." Genesis  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/1.html#16 - 1:16

But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? Now lets us see what the Holy Quran says about the earth:

THE LIGHT OF THE MOON IS REFLECTED LIGHT:
It was believed by earlier civilizations that the moon emanated its own light. Science now tell us that the light of the moon is reflected light. However this fact was mentioned in the Quran 1,400 years ago in the following verse :

Blessed is He Who made Constellations in the skies And placed therein a Lamp And a Moon giving light. [AI-Quran 25:61]

The Arabic word for the sun in the Quran, is Shams. It is referred to as Siraaj which means a torch having a light of its own or as Wahhaaj which means a blaizing lamp or as Diya which means shining glory. All there descriptions are appropriate to the sun, since it not only emits its own light but also supplies essential energy to life on earth. The Arabic word for the moon is Qamar and it is described in the Quran Noor which is a reflection of light or as Muneer which means borrowed light. Again, the Quranic description marches perfectly with the true nature of the moon, which we now know reflects the light of the sun. Not once in the Quran, is the moon mentioned as Siraaj or Wahhaaj. This implies that the Quran recognized the difference between the nature of sunlight and moonlight.

Consider the following verses related to the nature of light from the sun and the moon:

It is He who made the sun To be a shinning glory And the moon to be a light (Of beauty). [AI-Quran 10:5]

See ye not How Allah has created The seven heavens One above another, And made the moon A light in their midst And made the sun As a (Glorious) Lamp? [AI-Quran 71:15-16]

The Arabic word for star is Kaukab or Najm, which means a visible heavenly body. The term Najm also carries with it the notion of a heavenly body that may be either a generator of light or a mere reflector of light.

Therefore Quran is the Word of God but the Bible is the words of men.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 12:04pm

 

abrah - here is a quotation from a certain mr jochen katz, which i googled - what do you think of it?

Does the Qur'an reveal that the moon has reflected light while the sun is a source of light?

Sura 71:15-16, states:

See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
and made the moon a light (noor) in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp (siraaj)?

The moon is called a light (Arabic: noor) and the sun a lamp (siraaj). Some Muslims claim that since the Qur'an uses different words speaking about the light of the sun and the light of the moon, it reveals that the sun is a source of light, while the moon only reflects light.

This claim is made on the two web sites listed at the end of this article, implied very strongly by Shabir Ally in his booklet Science in the Qur'an, and stated by Dr. Zakir Naik in his video Is the Qur'an God's Word? To support this Dr. Naik quotes Sura Al-Furqan 25:61 which says,

Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies,
And placed therein a lamp (siraaj)
And a moon which has reflected light.
(Yusuf Ali says, "a Moon giving light")

Then Dr. Naik goes on to say, "The Arabic word for moon is 'qamar' and the light described there is 'muneer' which is borrowed light, or 'noor' which is a reflection of light."

Not only is this claimed to be a statement in keeping with scientific insight, it is claimed to be scientifically miraculous since this was supposedly only discovered relatively recently.

It is correct that the moon does not emit its own light but only reflects the light of the sun. But this was known already at least a thousand years before Muhammad, for example to the ancient Greek astronomers, and can hardly be called miraculous knowledge.

For example when Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) discussed the shape of the earth. One of his arguments to prove the earth's sphericity was the fact that during a lunar eclipse, as the moon enters or emerges from the earth's shadow, the shape of the shadow seen on the moon is always round. Only a spherical object always produces a round shadow. If the earth were a disk, for example, there would be some occasions when the sunlight would be striking the disk edge on, and the shadow on the moon would be a line.

It is clear from this information that Aristotle understood that the light coming from the moon was reflected light.

Why would the Qur'an just use different nouns, calling the moon "a light" and the sun "a lamp", to show this truth? If the author of the Qur'an wanted to convey this meaning, why does Allah not state it clearly? Why does it not say: "And the moon, its light is only a reflection from the light of the sun"? The words for "light" and "sun" are used many times in the Qur'an and there is an Arabic word for reflection (in`ikaas).

If we insist on scientific miracles, then we have the right to look for and expect scientific language and accuracy. So let us look at this in some more detail.

Do the Quranic words themselves support this claim?

muneer

The word "muneer" is used 6 times in the Qur'an. Four times, Suras 3:184; 22:8, 31:20, and 35:35 it is the phrase "kitab al-muneer" which Yusuf Ali translates as "a book of enlightenment" and Pickthall uses "the scripture giving light". Clearly this indicates a book which is radiating the light of knowledge. We already looked at Sura 25:61 where "qamar al-muneer" is translated as "a moon giving light". The sixth verse will be discussed below.

Thus we find that the Qur'an never says that the moon is not a light, and it never says that the moon reflects light. In fact, the Qur'an uses exactly the wrong language from a scientific point of view. It says in Suras 71:16 and 10:5 that Allah "made the moon a light" . However, in other verses the Qur'an says that Allah is a "noor", a light. Look at Sura An-Noor 24:35, one of the most beautiful passages in the Qur'an. It reads:

Allah is the Light (noor) of the heavens and the earth.
The Parable of His Light (noor) is as if there were a Niche
and within it a Lamp (misbah): the Lamp (misbah) enclosed in Glass:
the glass as it were a brilliant star:
Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive,
neither of the east nor of the west,
whose oil is well-nigh luminous,
though fire scarce touched it:
Light (noor) upon Light (noor)!
God does guide whom He will to His Light (noor):
God does set forth Parables for men: and God does know all things.

siraaj

Concerning the word "siraaj", in Suras 71:15-16 and 26:61 it is simply "lamp" referring to the sun. In Sura 78:13 "siraajan wahhajan" means "a dazzling lamp", again indicating the sun.

If you continue to insist that "noor" (used for the moon) means borrowed or reflected light, in comparison to the word (siraaj = lamp) used for the sun, consider the following verses.

In Sura 24:35 we read that "Allah is the light (noor) of the heavens and the earth." If "noor" means reflected light, what is the source of this light (siraaj) which Allah is only a reflection of?

Think about it. Why is Allah called "noor" and not "siraaj"? Who? What is the "siraaj"?

Well the Qur'an tells us who the "siraaj" is, but the answer will shock you. In Sura 33:45-46 we find:

O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness,
a Bearer of Glad Tidings and a Warner
and as one who invites to Allah's (Grace) by His leave
and as a lamp spreading light.

"And as a lamp spreading light" in Arabic is "wa siraajan muneeran".

Linguistically, this is the end of the discussion. Here "siraaj" and the adjective "muneer" are used together for the same shining object. It is ridiculous to try to maintain that "muneer" implies reflection rather than its own brilliance.

And spiritually, if you insist that the Arabic words "noor" and "muneer" imply "reflected light, then based on the use of these words in the Qur'an, Muhammad is like the sun, and Allah is like the moon.

Do Muslims really want to say that Muhammad is the source of light, and Allah is only his reflection.

Why are these so called scientific claims made which no Muslim can support if he makes a serious study of his own Qur'an? It makes honest discussion very difficult.



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 12:12pm

Fred: The contradiction is that each of the Gospels tells the story of Jesus with different information.

If I say Peter denied Jesus to the same girl twice then to a crowd, then I say Peter denied Jesus to a girl, a man, and then an hour later another man, that is a contradiction. They are two completely different accounts of the same event.

In the case of the four gospels, each account is different. This would never hold up in a worldly court of law, much less as the Word of God.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by fredifreeloader

 

abrah - here is a quotation from a certain mr jochen katz, which i googled - what do you think of it?

Does the Qur'an reveal that the moon has reflected light while the sun is a source of light?

Sura 71:15-16, states:

See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
and made the moon a light (noor) in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp (siraaj)?

The moon is called a light (Arabic: noor) and the sun a lamp (siraaj). Some Muslims claim that since the Qur'an uses different words speaking about the light of the sun and the light of the moon, it reveals that the sun is a source of light, while the moon only reflects light.

This claim is made on the two web sites listed at the end of this article, implied very strongly by Shabir Ally in his booklet Science in the Qur'an, and stated by Dr. Zakir Naik in his video Is the Qur'an God's Word? To support this Dr. Naik quotes Sura Al-Furqan 25:61 which says,

Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies,
And placed therein a lamp (siraaj)
And a moon which has reflected light.
(Yusuf Ali says, "a Moon giving light")

Then Dr. Naik goes on to say, "The Arabic word for moon is 'qamar' and the light described there is 'muneer' which is borrowed light, or 'noor' which is a reflection of light."

Not only is this claimed to be a statement in keeping with scientific insight, it is claimed to be scientifically miraculous since this was supposedly only discovered relatively recently.

It is correct that the moon does not emit its own light but only reflects the light of the sun. But this was known already at least a thousand years before Muhammad, for example to the ancient Greek astronomers, and can hardly be called miraculous knowledge.

For example when Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) discussed the shape of the earth. One of his arguments to prove the earth's sphericity was the fact that during a lunar eclipse, as the moon enters or emerges from the earth's shadow, the shape of the shadow seen on the moon is always round. Only a spherical object always produces a round shadow. If the earth were a disk, for example, there would be some occasions when the sunlight would be striking the disk edge on, and the shadow on the moon would be a line.

It is clear from this information that Aristotle understood that the light coming from the moon was reflected light.

Why would the Qur'an just use different nouns, calling the moon "a light" and the sun "a lamp", to show this truth? If the author of the Qur'an wanted to convey this meaning, why does Allah not state it clearly? Why does it not say: "And the moon, its light is only a reflection from the light of the sun"? The words for "light" and "sun" are used many times in the Qur'an and there is an Arabic word for reflection (in`ikaas).

If we insist on scientific miracles, then we have the right to look for and expect scientific language and accuracy. So let us look at this in some more detail.

Do the Quranic words themselves support this claim?

muneer

The word "muneer" is used 6 times in the Qur'an. Four times, Suras 3:184; 22:8, 31:20, and 35:35 it is the phrase "kitab al-muneer" which Yusuf Ali translates as "a book of enlightenment" and Pickthall uses "the scripture giving light". Clearly this indicates a book which is radiating the light of knowledge. We already looked at Sura 25:61 where "qamar al-muneer" is translated as "a moon giving light". The sixth verse will be discussed below.

Thus we find that the Qur'an never says that the moon is not a light, and it never says that the moon reflects light. In fact, the Qur'an uses exactly the wrong language from a scientific point of view. It says in Suras 71:16 and 10:5 that Allah "made the moon a light" . However, in other verses the Qur'an says that Allah is a "noor", a light. Look at Sura An-Noor 24:35, one of the most beautiful passages in the Qur'an. It reads:

Allah is the Light (noor) of the heavens and the earth.
The Parable of His Light (noor) is as if there were a Niche
and within it a Lamp (misbah): the Lamp (misbah) enclosed in Glass:
the glass as it were a brilliant star:
Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive,
neither of the east nor of the west,
whose oil is well-nigh luminous,
though fire scarce touched it:
Light (noor) upon Light (noor)!
God does guide whom He will to His Light (noor):
God does set forth Parables for men: and God does know all things.

siraaj

Concerning the word "siraaj", in Suras 71:15-16 and 26:61 it is simply "lamp" referring to the sun. In Sura 78:13 "siraajan wahhajan" means "a dazzling lamp", again indicating the sun.

If you continue to insist that "noor" (used for the moon) means borrowed or reflected light, in comparison to the word (siraaj = lamp) used for the sun, consider the following verses.

In Sura 24:35 we read that "Allah is the light (noor) of the heavens and the earth." If "noor" means reflected light, what is the source of this light (siraaj) which Allah is only a reflection of?

Think about it. Why is Allah called "noor" and not "siraaj"? Who? What is the "siraaj"?

Well the Qur'an tells us who the "siraaj" is, but the answer will shock you. In Sura 33:45-46 we find:

O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness,
a Bearer of Glad Tidings and a Warner
and as one who invites to Allah's (Grace) by His leave
and as a lamp spreading light.

"And as a lamp spreading light" in Arabic is "wa siraajan muneeran".

Linguistically, this is the end of the discussion. Here "siraaj" and the adjective "muneer" are used together for the same shining object. It is ridiculous to try to maintain that "muneer" implies reflection rather than its own brilliance.

And spiritually, if you insist that the Arabic words "noor" and "muneer" imply "reflected light, then based on the use of these words in the Qur'an, Muhammad is like the sun, and Allah is like the moon.

Do Muslims really want to say that Muhammad is the source of light, and Allah is only his reflection.

Why are these so called scientific claims made which no Muslim can support if he makes a serious study of his own Qur'an? It makes honest discussion very difficult.

Fred: I think people who are not linguists and experts in the subleties and nuances of the Arabic language should not write articles they cannot substantiate.

Why do you guys have to look so hard to find something that you think might be wrong in the translation of the Quran, that may or may not be a scientific uncertainty, when all you have to do is look in the Bible to find contradiction after contradiction? Spend a little bit of this time cleaning up the mess that's been made of the Gospels.

To say that the New Testament are the accounts of men, and they are writing what they are told by witnesses means that the Bible is not the Word of God, but a book by men, who are fallible, and clearly disagree on many things. Perhaps the spirit and the message are the same, but in many cases it's not. So, how do you know which version to trust? How do you know which man was right?

Even with all of its contradictions, the Bible still does not state: Jesus is God, or God is a Trinity. Even the witnesses and the authors who penned it did not have the nerve to state these so boldly.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by fredifreeloader

Originally posted by Mishmish

Matthew 26: 69- 73: Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all.... And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied .... And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech betrayeth thee.

Mark 14:66-71: And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest: And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth. But he denied..... And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew. And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them. And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto. But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

Luke 22:54-60: Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off. ... But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him. And he denied him.... And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not. And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean. And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest.

John 18:15-27: And Simon Peter followed Jesus ... and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. ... Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.... And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not. One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
where is the contradiction here?
 
well where gender is specified, it is mostly female, that is true.  but we are really talking about the 3rd denial here, which is the only time that the gender specified is male, in johns gospel.  the fact that one person is specified as having challenged peter does not mean that others did not do so also, and there is nothing in the other gospels to indicate that a male did not challenge peter the 3rd time.  therefore no contradiction as far as im concerned


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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

[QUOTE=fredifreeloader]

"Fred: I think people who are not linguists and experts in the subleties and nuances of the Arabic language should not write articles they cannot substantiate.

Why do you guys have to look so hard to find something that you think might be wrong in the translation of the Quran, that may or may not be a scientific uncertainty, when all you have to do is look in the Bible to find contradiction after contradiction? Spend a little bit of this time cleaning up the mess that's been made of the Gospels.

To say that the New Testament are the accounts of men, and they are writing what they are told by witnesses means that the Bible is not the Word of God, but a book by men, who are fallible, and clearly disagree on many things. Perhaps the spirit and the message are the same, but in many cases it's not. So, how do you know which version to trust? How do you know which man was right?

Even with all of its contradictions, the Bible still does not state: Jesus is God, or God is a Trinity. Even the witnesses and the authors who penned it did not have the nerve to state these so boldly.

well this is hardly an answer, mish, i mean abrah has put up a big claim for the quran, which is his right, and i have posted someone elses counter-claim.  how do you know they are not expert linguists anyway?  and note its not just about language, it also points out a very pertinent fact of scientific history. as for the rest of your post, well well need to talk about that sometime.  right now im off out to spend part of the pittance they call my "annual bonus", which i received this week



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 1:23pm

My response to Fredifreeloader's wild claim:

The terms used to explain the characteristic of the sun:

i)shams

ii) Siraaj = torch having a light of its own

(iii)Wahhaaj= a blaizing lamp

All the descriptions above are appropriate to the sun, since it not only emits its own light but also supplies essential energy to life on earth.

The terms use to describe the characteristics of the moon:

1)Qamar 

ii)Noor which is a reflection of light

iii)Muneer which means borrowed light.

I quote Fredi's statement: 'We already looked at Sura 25:61 where "qamar al-muneer" is translated as "a moon giving light".'

The translation of Quran 25:61 :  SHAKIR: Blessed is He Who made the constellations in the heavens and made therein a lamp and a shining moon. (Source: University of Southern California USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts)

 
I quote Fredi's statement: 'In Sura 24:35 we read that "Allah is the light (noor) of the heavens and the earth." If "noor" means reflected light, what is the source of this light (siraaj) which Allah is only a reflection of?'
 
Let us compare the translation of the Holy Quran below with Fredi's above:
 

024.035
YUSUFALI: Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.
PICKTHAL: Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
SHAKIR: Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

***EDITED  This is a warning.***

 


 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 1:52pm

Is the Bible the Word of God?

1) Jacob displays his (and Gods) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods.  The result is streaked baby goats (Genesis 30:37).  The author of Genesis (God?) believed that genetic characteristics of the offspring are determined by what the parents see at the moment of conception.  This is a laughable belief.  Ask any animal husbandrist.

2) Leviticus 11:13 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,....Leviticus 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Therefore bats are birds to the biblical God. Leviticus  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/11.html#13 - 11:13 , http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/11.html#19 - 19 and this belief contradicts science that says a bat is a mammal !

Allah (God) is the All Wise so Allah (God) will not make any mistakes but people do make mistakes so the Bible is not the Word of God but the words of men who corrupted it into a lie!

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 1:55pm

Is the Bible the Word of God?

THE SPHERICAL SHAPE OF THE EARTH:

The earth according to the Bible:

The Bible says that the earth is flat!

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV) 

 Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV) 

The Bible claims that Earth has four ends and four corners.  Nobody can ever think a ball or a cycle to have corners and ends!  Only flat items can have corners and ends, and this is exactly what the bible is trying to express regarding the shape of the earth.  The earth is not flat, as once thought and it has no corners or ends at all.

The earth according to the Holy Quran:

In early times, people believed that the earth is flat. For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597.

Consider the following Quranic verse regarding the alternation of day and night:

Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night? [Al-Quran 31:29]

Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.

The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth:

He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions): He Makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night. [AI-Quran 39:5]

The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning to coil-the way a turban is wound around the head. The coiling of the day and night can only take place if the earth is spherical.

Conclusion:

We know that God is the All Wise so:

(1)The Holy Quran is the Word of God for it is correct in explaining the earth  eventhough there was no modern science during Muhammad's era.

(2)The Bible is the words of men who wrote and corrupted the Bible into a lie!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 2:16pm

Hey Fredi

You claim that Jesus is the Word of God and the Old Testament and New Testament are the Word of God. Therefore according to your belief and logic the NT and OT are the Word Of Jesus!

It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said Thou shall not kill.  For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people ( http://www.evilbible.com/July.htm#July 9 - 1 Chronicles 21 ).  God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there.  He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value ( http://www.evilbible.com/July.htm#July 8 - Deuteronomy 3 ).  He orders another attack and the killing of all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses ( http://www.evilbible.com/March.htm#March 31 - Joshua 6 ).  In http://www.evilbible.com/January.htm#Jan 24 - Judges 21 , He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married.  When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife!  Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody!  In http://www.evilbible.com/January.htm#Jan 15 - 2 Kings 10:18-27 , God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! 

Hey Fredi....Are the Biblical verses above the Word of God and Jesus? Remember that Jesus said he came to fulfill the teachings of Moses not to destroy them....  I dare you Fredi to answer my simple question ! Just answer YES or NO! I dare you!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 2:46pm

Fred wrote:

"well where gender is specified, it is mostly female, that is true.  but we are really talking about the 3rd denial here, which is the only time that the gender specified is male, in johns gospel.  the fact that one person is specified as having challenged peter does not mean that others did not do so also, and there is nothing in the other gospels to indicate that a male did not challenge peter the 3rd time.  therefore no contradiction as far as im concerned"

Fred, this is not even one of the biggest contradictions in the Bible. Just a minor one. Saying it's no contradiction as far as you're concerned doesn't mean the accounts don't contradict.

The point here is that while we do actually give proof why the wording in the Quran is correct, no one ever gives proof why the Bible has so many mistakes, other than different accounts by different men. Or, yours: what contradiction? A personal favorite of mine...

I guess if you ever get shot on the street you would probably hope that the witnesses were a bit more accurate than, a girl, the same girl, another girl, a man, a second man, a group of people....



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 3:00pm

"how do you know they are not expert linguists anyway?"

Jochen Katz is the psuedonym of the Islam bashing Crazed missionary who started Answering Islam. He has no credentials as a linguist, and his interpretation of the Bible is rather off-center also. I wouldn't want to go around proudly quoting him on very many religious matters. He has yet to come up with a valid contradiction in the Quran, and he's been trying for a while.

Why is it that so many Christian zealots are afraid of Islam? Do you despise the truth when you see it?



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 9:52pm

Is the bible the word of God?, I guess the next question or equally the same is, "is the the bible a revelation from God"? And does it claim to be a revelation from God?



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 10:36pm

Fred wrote:

and there is nothing in the other gospels to indicate that a male did not challenge peter the 3rd time

Actually Matthew and Mark both state it was a crowd. Regardless, this does not change the FACT that all four accounts, the Gospels, give different accounts.

Here is another interesting contradiction which I asked about before, but no one answered: Why is the Geneology of Jesus given through Joseph to link to David? And of both of the geneologies listed, the begats are totally different, even here:

Matthew 1:16: And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luke 3:23: And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

First, Jesus had no earthly father. So, how could his geneology be traced back to David through Joseph? Second, isn't it important that the family tree of God, manifest in human form, has his ancestry correctly noted? Isn't relationship to David necessary in identification of the Messiah?



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 29 May 2006 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by Angel

Is the bible the word of God?, I guess the next question or equally the same is, "is the the bible a revelation from God"? And does it claim to be a revelation from God?

I don't know what Christians are saying now. When I was a child, it was the Word of God. When I was an adult, it was the Word inspired by God. Then the written accounts of the Apostles divinely guided.

I'm sure someone will let us know.



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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)



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