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The Crucifixion of Jesus

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4852
Printed Date: 23 November 2014 at 8:25am


Topic: The Crucifixion of Jesus
Posted By: AbRah2006
Subject: The Crucifixion of Jesus
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 10:25am
Allah the All Mighty and All Merciful God doesn't need any murders to forgive you. If you regret your sins and pray to Allah and beg for His forgiveness and mercy sincerely He will forgive you. Allah will not crucify any person to death for the sins of other persons for Allah is the All Merciful God.

Those that turn (to God) in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of God,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by God;- (These do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers. (Quran 9:112)

       "And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they had earned then surely He would have hastened on their punishment. But they have their appointed time beyond which they will find no escape." ( Quran 18:58)

According to Islam Jesus was not crucified because Allah had saved him by  raising him up unto Himself.

Jesus here emphasized what will happen to him by specifically saying that he will be like Jonas in terms of the number of days and nights he will be in the heart of the earth, " For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40). Now let us see if this prophecy came to pass.

Jesus was crucified on Friday, this is certainly known among all Christians, and that is the reason for calling that Friday by "Good Friday". Jesus was buried on Friday night. Now let us start counting:


1. Friday night Jesus was buried. This is night number 1.
2. Saturday day Jesus was still in the grave. This is day number 1.
3. Saturday night Jesus was still in the grave. This is night number 2.


Mary Magdalene, very early in the morning before sun rise and after the Sabbath (Saturday), went to the see Jesus, and he was not there. The following verses relate this event:


* Mark 16:1 " And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him".

* Mark 16:2 " And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun".

* Mark 16:3 " And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?"

* Mark 16:4 " And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great".

* Mark 16:5 " And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted".

* Mark 16:6 " And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him".

The number of days and nights that Jesus had spent in the heart of the earth is 1 day and 2 nights. This clearly challenges what Jesus had prophesied.  

If the crucifixion of Jesus is true, why did the authors of the Gospels contradict one another?

Mark was the first writer to record the crucifixion, yet he was NOT an eye-witness!“The author of Mark, the earliest of the narrative gospels, was not an eyewitness: he is reporting information conveyed to him by a third person or persons, who themselves were quite possible not eye-witnesses” (Robert Walter Funk, The Jesus Seminar: The Acts of Jesus, p. 4)

 Moreover, the Gospels are anonymous documents, totally unreliable. None of them originate from eye-witness sources.

Did the disciples of Jesus witness the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' ? All the disciples of Jesus forsook him, and fled before 'crucifixion of Jesus' so they did not witness the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' (Matthew 26:56)!

 The NT confirms that only Peter witnessed the crucifixion. Was Peter a reliable witness of the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus'? Peter lied to save his skin by saying that he did not know Jesus so Peter was not a reliable witness!>> Matthew 26:73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
Matthew 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
Matthew 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

    Why does  the Bible contradict itself by making contradictory statements about the so-called crucifixion of Jesus if the crucifixion had really happened? The contradictory statements of the Bible have proven that the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie:

(1)Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15
(2)Christ was to be three days and three nights in the   grave Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9

(3)Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights.  Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days!

(4)In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."  This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.

(5)Jesus commands the disciples to go into Galilee immediately after the resurrection. Matthew 28:10. Jesus commands the disciples to "tarry in Jerusalem" immediately after the resurrection.(Luke 24:49)

(6)Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at  JerusalemLuke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19.
         Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee Matt 28:16,17

(7) The Bible contradicts itself by saying:(a) Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

(b)Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

(c)Matthew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Matthew27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

 Question: How could Jesus die at two different places (the tree and the cross) at the same time?

8. The Christians claim that Jesus was crucified for their sins but the Bible refutes their false claim by saying that Christians are sinless 1 John 3: 9,6,8

9. The Christians claim that Jesus was resurrected after he was crucified but the Bible refutes their claim by saying that there is to be no resurrection of the dead
           Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14

10. Let us read this verse 'Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and
the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified. (
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#top - Matthew 26:2 )'. If anyone believes his prediction in http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#top - Matt 26:2 ,  then Jesus must have known of his upcoming crucifixion. As we all know that Christians claim that Jesus is God. If Jesus equals a god, then he could not have sacrificed his life, simply because an infinite god cannot die. If Jesus died as just a man, then he committed what we would today call suicide.

The contradictory statements of the Bible concerning the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' have proven that the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie.Would you attribute those errors to God and Jesus? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Will you accept its contradictory statements to prove that Jesus was crucified to death? Most likely you will say of course not.


The contradictions of the Bible have invalidated the crucifixion of Jesus so the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie!Jesus was not crucified because Allah had saved him so who was crucified?

Even though Judas knew full well that Jesus was a prophet of God, still, he conspired to kill him. Allah punishes severely those that betray him. Allah punished him by making him look like Jesus. The Romans and Jews, who had long since been conspiring to kill Jesus, killed Judas, who looked like Jesus. This theory is supported by parts of the Bible itself.

In the Bible, Jesus says "God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus would never have said this if he was the son of God coming down to die for everybody's sin, as Christians believe. No, it was Judas who asked this question. Also, in the Bible the person on the cross called Mary "Women!" when he sees her. Obviously, this was not Jesus, because Jesus would never call his mother such a disrespectful name. No, instead, this person was Judas.

Judas identified as the betrayer- Mat 26:21-25, Mark 14:18-21, Luke 22:21-23, John 13:21-30.

This is written in much more clear detail in the Gospel of Barnabas:216 Judas Transformed http://www.barnabas.net/ - http://www.barnabas.net/

Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'

And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil.' 216 Judas Transformed (The Gospel of Barnabas).

Important note: The Gospels contradict one another about the death of Judas...Judas hanged himself ( http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/27.html#5 - Matthew 27:5 ) ....Judas fell down and died ( http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/acts/1.html#18 - Acts 1:18 )....How could the same Judas die twice? Was he resurrected too?  The Gospels are hiding something that may expose the crufixion of Jesus as a lie! Judas was the one who was crucified to death for God made him to look like Jesus ...The traitor deserved the execution for betraying Jesus!

Conclusion: Jesus was not crucified for Allah  the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate had saved him. It was Judas who looked like Jesus was crucifed to death : That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-  And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (Quran 4:157-158)

 

 

 

 

 

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)



Replies:
Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 10:57am

Regarding this statement:

"(3)Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights.  Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days!"

If you look in any fundamentalist Sunday School material, you will find that many evangelical Christians believe that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday (the day of preparation), not Friday - and that he arose on Sunday.  Three days and three nights.



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 11:32am
My response to Alibaba's statement:

If you look in any fundamentalist Sunday School material, you will find that many evangelical Christians believe that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday (the day of preparation), not Friday - and that he arose on Sunday.  Three days and three nights.

 

According to the Gospels, Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, the first day of the week`, which was the third day since His trial, death and burial (Luke 24:21).

Sunday, as we have seen, actually began at sunset on Saturday evening, and by Jewish reckoning any part of day is counted as a day. So working backwards:

  • Sunday, was the third day, the day of the resurrection.
  • Saturday (Sabbath) was the second day that Christ rested in the tomb.
  • Friday (Preparation day) was the first day, the day of the crucifixion.

Note that in Luke 24:18 - 21, the events of the three days begin with the arrest and trial of Jesus, not with His burial!

Jesus was crucified on Friday and died at 3 p.m. He rose from the dead somewhere between Saturday after sunset and sunrise on Sunday morning. There is absolutely no way to push the crucifixion back to Wednesday and fit scripture. A Wednesday crucifixion is clearly impossible.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights.  Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days! This contradiction has proven that the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 12:32pm

Wednesday evening to Thursday evening - 1 day

Thursday evening to Friday evening - day two

Friday evening to Saturday evening - day three

Sunday morning - the Resurrection



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 12:59pm

AbRah2006,

 

You do very poor homework, my friend.  Here are some links that may help you with your questions and any further questions:

 

http://www.tektonics.org/harmonize/greenharmony.htm - http://www.tektonics.org/harmonize/greenharmony.htm

 

http://www.peterballard.org/easter.html - http://www.peterballard.org/easter.html

 

There are lots of links on each of these sites.

 

About the sign of Jonah/three days and stuff, suggest that you google: What indeed was the sign of Jonah? and read along.

 

Maybe you should ask questions, one at a time, please; instead of making allegations?

 

Thanks.



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 1:00pm

My response to Alibaba

Wednesday evening to Thursday evening - 1 day

Thursday evening to Friday evening - day two

Friday evening to Saturday evening - day three

Sunday morning - the Resurrection

 

According to your calculation,  Jesus was resurrected on the 4th day not on the 3rd day! This is against the Gospels ! Once again I say that the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 1:06pm

My response to George 'You do very poor homework, my friend'

Hey George ... it seems to me that you are the one who do very poor homework for you dare not refute all the Biblical verses that I use to prove that the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax! Why don't you refute all the Biblical verses to prove that you are right? I dare you to refute all the contradictions of the Bible!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 1:47pm

No, Jesus appeared at the very beginning of Sunday, at the end of his third night in the tomb, to His disciples amd the women.  There were two sabbaths in that particular week, and one day of preparation.  But, in any case, since you think it's all a "hoax" why even bother answering your query. What if I said the existence of Mohammed is a hoax.

In any case, the very fact that His disciples were empowered to go forth and preach His gospel, making Christianity the greatest religious movement the world has ever witnessed, proves to your dismay, that this was not a hoax.

For further information (for those that do not believe it is a hoax):

http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html - http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nig hts.html

 

 



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 2:04pm

AbRAH said:

"Hey George ... it seems to me that you are the one who do very poor homework for you dare not refute all the Biblical verses that I use to prove that the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax! Why don't you refute all the Biblical verses to prove that you are right? I dare you to refute all the contradictions of the Bible!"


Why is this person continually allowed by the moderator(s) to insult Christians and their beliefs?  We are very careful not to say anything which would be considered an insult to Islam.  Why is that not reciprocated on this board?  Are you people still teenagers?  Are you unable to behave like adults and carry on adult dialogue and debate?  If not, for what reason do you even have this topic on your board?  I personally think if Allah is all you claim, He must be extremely saddened to see and read the words of some Muslims here.  Did Allah tell you to insult and disrespect Christians and their religion?  (I hope I haven't just answered my own question here.)

God's Peace,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 2:18pm
Actually, I find the very title of this thread to be demeaning to Christianity and contrary to the rules of courtesy on Islamic City.  For goodness sake, if we ever put up a thread titled "Mohammed is a Hoax" or something similar it would be deleted immediately.  Where is the fairness here Oh monitors?


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 2:30pm

I have a question.  If Muslims believe that Jesus was a great prophet, why do they not believe the words He spoke?  He told of His forthcoming death to His disciples.  Do you believe he was lying?  And if you do believe He was lying, how could you continue to call a "liar" a great prophet?

Jesus spoke the following, "shortly before His crucifixion He said to His disciples, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." John 12:23. 

The third day after Jesus had died on the cross, God raised Him from the dead, and forty days later, God lifted Him up to glory in the heavens. One day Jesus will return to receive those who belong to Him.

13 "We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14

God's Peace,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 5:02pm
Alibaba
  http://www.islamicity.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=43888&TPN=2 -

No, Jesus appeared at the very beginning of Sunday, at the end of his third night in the tomb, to His disciples amd the women.  There were two sabbaths in that particular week, and one day of preparation.  But, in any case, since you think it's all a "hoax" why even bother answering your query. What if I said the existence of Mohammed is a hoax.

In any case, the very fact that His disciples were empowered to go forth and preach His gospel, making Christianity the greatest religious movement the world has ever witnessed, proves to your dismay, that this was not a hoax.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here are my responses to Alibaba:

(1)Let us go back to your calculation :

Wednesday evening to Thursday evening - 1 day

Thursday evening to Friday evening - day two

Friday evening to Saturday evening - day three

Sunday morning - the Resurrection

My comment: Saturday evening to Sunday morning -day 4 ......That means you are against the Gospels that says Jesus was resurrected on the third day!

(2) The existence of Jesus and Muhammad is not a hoax for they are the messengers of God! The crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax because the Bible contradicts itself by making contradictory statements about the crucifixion of Jesus.  Can you win your case in the court if you have contradictory statements to support your case? The court will say that you are a liar and your case is a lie!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 5:23pm
Patty
  http://www.islamicity.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=43890&TPN=2 -

AbRAH said:

"Hey George ... it seems to me that you are the one who do very poor homework for you dare not refute all the Biblical verses that I use to prove that the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax! Why don't you refute all the Biblical verses to prove that you are right? I dare you to refute all the contradictions of the Bible!"


Why is this person continually allowed by the moderator(s) to insult Christians and their beliefs?  We are very careful not to say anything which would be considered an insult to Islam.  Why is that not reciprocated on this board?  Are you people still teenagers?  Are you unable to behave like adults and carry on adult dialogue and debate?  If not, for what reason do you even have this topic on your board?  I personally think if Allah is all you claim, He must be extremely saddened to see and read the words of some Muslims here.  Did Allah tell you to insult and disrespect Christians and their religion?  (I hope I haven't just answered my own question here.)

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here is my response to Patty: It is not my intention to insult Christians and their belief but I have to expose the truth that Jesus was never crucified so  I quote the Biblical verses to support my statements. Why are you so angry when I expose the truth that Jesus was not crucified using the Biblical verses?

How do you know that Allah (God) must be extremely saddened to see and read the words of some Muslims here? Does Allah tell you that? Have you spoken to Allah?

Here is my answer for you: 'There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower [Qur'an 2:256] '



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 5:29pm

Alibaba 'Actually, I find the very title of this thread to be demeaning to Christianity and contrary to the rules of courtesy on Islamic City.  For goodness sake, if we ever put up a thread titled "Mohammed is a Hoax" or something similar it would be deleted immediately.  Where is the fairness here Oh monitors? '

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here is my response to Alibaba: You can put up a thread titled "Mohammed is a Hoax" or something similar  and it is my pleasure to refute your lies.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 5:49pm

Patty 'I have a question.  If Muslims believe that Jesus was a great prophet, why do they not believe the words He spoke?  He told of His forthcoming death to His disciples.  Do you believe he was lying?  And if you do believe He was lying, how could you continue to call a "liar" a great prophet?'

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here are my responses to Patty:

1)We Muslims believe that Jesus is a great prophet of Allah : The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not "Three". Refrain; better it is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him -- (He is) above having a son” (Quran 4:171).

2) We Muslims believe that the original teachings of Jesus are the truth of God but his teachings were corrupted into a lie by the Christians. For example: (1) Christ taught non-resistance
          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

(2)Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1
(3)Public prayer sanctioned
          1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
         Public prayer disapproved
          Matt 6:5,6

(4)The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
          Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
         The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
          Luke 2:22, 39
(5)Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15
(6)Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
          Matt 12:40
         Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
(7)Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
          Acts 1:9,12
         Christ ascended from Bethany
          Luke 24:50,51
(8)Christ is equal with God
           John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
          Christ is not equal with God
           John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
(9)Jesus was all-powerful
           Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
          Jesus was not all-powerful
           Mark 6:5

Would you attribute those errors to God and Jesus? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not.

In Islam Jesus is a prophet of God so he will not contradict his own words . After all Jesus had received the teachings from Allah (God) Who will never contradict His own Word for Allah is the All Wise.

The errors and contradictions of the Bible (the OT and NT) is the cause why Allah(God) sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur’an 15:9]. The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants:

 Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.  "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be Companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein." (Quran 002:037 -039)



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 6:43pm
Patty 'He told of His forthcoming death to His disciples.  Do you believe he was lying?  And if you do believe He was lying, how could you continue to call a "liar" a great prophet?

Jesus spoke the following, "shortly before His crucifixion He said to His disciples, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." John 12:23. 

The third day after Jesus had died on the cross, God raised Him from the dead, and forty days later, God lifted Him up to glory in the heavens. One day Jesus will return to receive those who belong to Him.'

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here is my response to Patti:

Many Christians believe that Jesus came to redeem man to God by His death on the cross and to forgive man's sins. In some instances we have the death of Jesus, yet at other times you see the same Christians making the claim that Jesus "lives." Did he actually die or does he live? It cannot work both ways. Even if the death means a temporary death, it gives little value for an eternal sacrifice. But regardless of which way one believes, the morality of such an act deserves questioning.

If anyone believes his prediction in http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#top - Matt 26:2 , then Jesus must have known of his upcoming crucifixion. As we all know that Christians claim that Jesus is God. If Jesus equals a god, then he could not have sacrificed his life, simply because an infinite god cannot die. If Jesus died as just a man, then he committed what we would today call suicide.

Did Jesus redeem man from his sacrifice? History shows that violence of man against man has increased since the alleged "sacrifice." Wars, terrorist acts, murders, and suicides have occurred because of faithful acts in the name of Jesus. It appears that the sacrifice resembles the curse of a demon rather than that of a savior. Furthermore, believing that his death forgives sins only provides reason for committing them in the first place. Why should anyone feel so disagreeable about committing sins when they feel that Jesus has already forgiven them? No wonder jails contain so many Christian zealots. Regardless of how "Caesar's" laws treat them, they think of themselves as specially forgiven.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 7:13pm

Dear AbRAH,

I am not going to get into an ongoing debate with you, because it is obvious that you do not understand how to interpret the Bible.  You, through NO fault of your own, misunderstand and are taking many scriptures out of context.  Yes, Jesus lives.  His spirit is always with us if we are believers.  He lives because he resurrected, just as He said He would.  It is true the prisons are full of Christian zealots, they are also full of Muslims, and those from many religions.  I do know this, as I grew up on a federal prison reservation.  My father was a correctional officer, and I also went to work in the prison as a stenographer to the warden.  Which proves that humans from ALL faiths sin.  The prisons have beautiful chapels and churches, and there are religious men from every faith working there to see that these poor souls receive the religious guidance they require, and so desperately need.  My father loved people and spent many, many hours on his own time, counseling and offering help to anyone of these inmates who needed someone to talk with them.  He would have NEVER insulted anybody, no matter their faith, no matter their race.  He's 87 years old now, in a nursing home and very ill.  He has remained steadfast in his faith. 

I wish we could have a good talk, but I don't know how to approach you because there are so many things about Christianity and the Bible which are distorted to you.  As far as my feeling Allah must be saddened by what he sees here, since he is God, I'm sure He is saddened whenever His children fail to get along, and instead end up insulting each other in the name of religion. 

I refuse to do that.  It is not in my nature to be rude or insulting to anyone.....and especially never over religion.

Peace be with you,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 15 May 2006 at 9:33pm

Dear ABrah,

Salaam Alaikum

I am sorry, I have to interrupt again, dear brother.

Crucification of Jesus is not a hoax. Personally, I do not like the word Crucifixion which glorifies Crucification by making it extremely gory. The Jews and others in neighbouring regions also used to hang people up the trees. You will notice that Paul said, "They hung him up on a tree". Paul was a Jew who knew well what the Jews used to do.

Qur'aan confirms that there was a crucification which took place but it looked to people as if Jesus was being hung up or crucified but in fact, it was not Jesus who was really left on the Cross or the Tree and he was not killed. Qur'aan does not use the term Crucifixion which was a brutal way of killing a man.

Crucification was much nicer in the sense that a man would be hung up and left to die, without bothering the condemned man.

Crucifixion is like throwing salt nonstop to injury upon injury.  First whip the hell out of a person, tear apart his skin, then hammer him with steel chains containing balls and piercing nails, then asking the guy in that condition to carry an entire Cross structure, getting stoned by the spectators, dragging up the hill, then erecting the Cross followed by nailing his hands and feet and as if not enough, break his legs and then thrusting in a spear to make sure blood and water gushed out. This system described to show the suffering is all hoax.

We can discuss the reasonable doubts about this whole affair in the other topic and show that it was all a show, planned and staged by Signore Pilate and Signora Pilate.  Please keep an open mind and remember that there were corrupt Jews, corrupt Centurions, corrupt Commanders and corrupt governors.

Best Regards

BMZ



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 5:52am

BMZ, I am amazed that you said this in an attempt to minimize the horror of crucifixion:

"Crucifixion is like throwing salt nonstop to injury upon injury.  First whip the hell out of a person, tear apart his skin, then hammer him with steel chains containing balls and piercing nails, then asking the guy in that condition to carry an entire Cross structure, getting stoned by the spectators, dragging up the hill, then erecting the Cross followed by nailing his hands and feet and as if not enough, break his legs and then thrusting in a spear to make sure blood and water gushed out. This system described to show the suffering is all hoax"

Without resorting to many "cut and paste" SECULAR facts regarding Roman crucifixion of the time of Jesus, I will just say that if you do a Google, you will find them yourself.  It is not a myth that this was the preferred method of crucifixion at that time in history.  This is a HISTORICAL FACT, if you completely remove the religious aspect. 

(I will provide the documented scientific information, if you like, but as you know, I'm not a great fan of "cut and paste.  I prefer to see people answer in their own words, and use minimal copying of documents.  I detest pages of documents.  We are all quite capable of understanding important excerpts from documents.  It has also been shown that people are more inclined to actually read and pay attention more if you don't OVERLOAD them with pages of material.)

You also said:

"Crucification was much nicer in the sense that a man would be hung up and left to die, without bothering the condemned man."

All I can manage to choke out to that unfortunate comment is this:  Imagine the person you love most of all in this whole world being put to death exactly as you stated above.  Does that lessen your grief?  Does that make you feel the loved one is not suffering and in great pain?  Do you realize the medical facts at all as far as what happens to a human being's body during this tortorous act?  I am appalled at your callousness.

God Grant You Wisdom,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 6:00am

Hi Patty,

Neither do I cut, copy and paste.

I am sorry. I did not mean that. I should have written:

"Crucification was much neater in the sense that a man would be hung up and left to die, without bothering the condemned man."

By the way, Patty, Bible does not talk of crucifixion, it mentions crucification.

Best Regards

BMZ



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 6:04am

Dear BMZ:

You said:

"Crucification was much neater in the sense that a man would be hung up and left to die, without bothering the condemned man."

By the way, Patty, Bible does not talk of crucifixion, it mentions crucification."

We can call it whichever you like.  It is still a gory, tortorous means of death, no matter what the word we prefer to use.  I don't care to argue the word right now....maybe later.

God's Peace,

Patty

 



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 6:08am
abrah - you have stated that the "crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax" - and have uttered dreadful blasphemy against our glorious Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ in the process (i may come back to your address your lies, time permitting) - but then you said this -

 

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-  And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (Quran 4:157-158)

now if this is true, who is the big hoaxer? - clearly the answer is - your god! (not that im surprised to learn it)

 



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 6:37am
fredifreeloader :

now if this is true, who is the big hoaxer? - clearly the answer is - your god! (not that im surprised to learn it


------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here is my response to fredifreeloader's wild allegation:

The contradictory statements of the Bible concerning the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' have proven that the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie.Would you attribute those errors to God and Jesus? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Will you accept its contradictory statements to prove that Jesus was crucified to death? Most likely you will say of course not.

Allah(God) is not the hoaxer for Allah(God) will not contradict His own Word and Allah is the absolute truth. It is Him who had given the Torah to the prophet Moses, Injeel to the prophet Jesus and Quran to the prophet Muhammad! God will not contradict His own Word for He is the All Wise so it is the keepers of the Torah and Bible who corrupt the Torah and Bible into a lie: 

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

It seems to me that the hoaxers are the keepers of the Torah and Bible who corrupt them into a lie according Deuteronomy 31:25-29 and Jeremiah 8:8-9 !



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:16am

no abrah, i have not made a wild allegation.  it is there for all to read in quran 4: 157-158 - "so it was made to appear to them", and it was allah who is alleged to have raised him up, and left someone looking like him on the cross! 

now you have introduced yet another lie, to add to your list.  you state that in deuteronomy 31:  35-29, moses predicted that the israelites would corrupt the book of the law, but he did no such thing.  he said they would corrupt themselves, and turn aside form the way God had commanded them

also in jeremiah, it appears that certain scribes had "handled it falsely" - how were they able to tell this was so, if they did not have the perfect book of the law with them?

this is it with you people, one lie just leads to another, and you soon become enmeshed in deceit



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:22am

 Abby: The verses you site have absolutely nothing to do with changing the text of God's Words.  You need to hone your exegetical skills if your going to run with the big boys.  God over and over and over says that His Word will last forever and that He WILL preserve it.  Here is an interesting piece by Quennel Gale:

Does the Bible say that it is Corrupted?

We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

Osama Abdallah's theory of Bible corruption based on this verse is nothing more than wishful thinking. Lets show you how he misintepretes the english mistranslatation of this verse.

The Revised Standard Version makes even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

Lets read the content around this verse:

Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD. "`How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. SINCE THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD, WHAT KIND OF WISDOM DO THEY HAVE? Jeremiah 8:8-9 Even the stork in the heavens knows her times; and the turtledove, swallow, and crane keep the time of their coming; but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD."How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD, and what wisdom is in them? Jeremiah 8:8-9 RSV

One who looks at the immediate content of these verses see that God poses a question about why the false scribes claim to be wise. Then in verse 9 it answers that question by saying BECAUSE THEY REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD (HIS LAW) WHAT TYPE OF WISDOM DO THEY HAVE. We see that there is no mention that these scribes corrupted the Bible. If the Bible was corrupted in verse 8, why is God calling it his word in verse 9? This is something Osama has failed to address.

The accusation that the scribes have falsified the Torah by their lying pens which would indicate that the Law was falsified by corrupting the text. Osama assumes that this is the only possible meaning since he is boguslly believes that the Bible has been corrupted.

But is this what Jeremiah meant? Did his hearers understand him to mean that the text of the Torah had been corrupted? Did the prophets after him agree that the Torah had been corrupted? In order to answer these questions we must look to Jeremiah and to the Holy Bible as a whole to see what indeed did Jeremiah mean.

"Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says: If you do not listen to me and follow MY LAW, which I have set before you, and if you do not listen to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I have sent to you again and again (though you have not listened) then I will make this house like Shiloh and this city an object of cursing among all the nations of the earth.'" Jeremiah 26:4-6

How could Israel follow the Law, i.e. the Torah, if it had been corrupted? This presupposes that the Torah was uncorrupt and available during the time of Jeremiah. Furthermore, since Jeremiah wrote Jeremiah 8:8 he would know best the meaning of the passage in question. Clearly, we see Jeremiah appealing to the availability of the Law in Jeremiah 26:4-6 implying that he did not believe that the scribes had corrupted the text.

The prophet Daniel writes:

"In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom- in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. So I turned to the LORD and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes." Daniel 9:1-3

Daniel is reading Jeremiah 25:11, 12 and 29:10 where God predicts that Israel would be taken into captivity to Babylon for 70 years. After reading this, Daniel continues to pray and says:

"Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE LAW OF MOSES, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth." Daniel 9:11b-13

In order for Daniel to appeal to what was written in the Law of Moses presupposes that an uncorrupt Torah was available during the time of Daniel. Furthermore, after having read Jeremiah Daniel never concludes that the Torah had been corrupted, put appeals to it as the inspired word of God. This would be a strange conclusion for Daniel to come to if Jeremiah 8:8 indeed meant that the text of the Torah had been corrupted during Jeremiah's time.

"They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people could understand what was being read... On the second day... they gathered around Ezra the scribe to give attention to the words of the Law. They found written in the Law, which the LORD had commanded through Moses, that... Day after day, from the first day to the last, Ezra read from the Book of the Law of God..." Nehemiah 8:13-14,18

This occurred approximately 430 B.C. nearly 180 years after Jeremiah's temple address which took place in 609 or 608 B.C. (see Jeremiah 26:1). Again, in order for Ezra the scribe to be able to both read from the Law of Moses and expound it presupposes that a true, uncorrupt copy of the Torah was available at that time.

Finally, the Lord Jesus and his followers quoted from the Torah as we know it today and never assumed that it was corrupt. (cf. Matthew 4:4,7,10; 22:31-32; 1 Timothy 5:18) In fact, Jesus claimed that the Torah as it exists would not pass away until all was fulfilled:

"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:18

If Jeremiah 8:8 does not mean that the text of the Torah had been corrupted what did Jeremiah mean by the statement that the lying pens of the scribes have falsified it? Jeremiah was referring to the written commentary of the scribes whereby they falsely interpreted the Law of God, leading people astray by their traditions. A similar situation arose between Jesus and the scribes and Pharisees:

"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!' Jesus replied, 'And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?... Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 'these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'" Matthew 15:1-3,6b-9

Jeremiah was rebuking the scribes for traditions that was leading the people astray and to rejecting the word of God. This can be seen from the passage that immediately follows:

"The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have." Jeremiah 8:9

We see no evidence whatsoever about Jeremiah showing proof of the corruption of the Law. In fact the Bible expounds on this matter in showing that the Law is unchangable but that people and hypocrites add to it their own vain desires:

Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deut. 4:1-2

Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. Deut 5:1

The Jews were commanded to follow the Law, and they even wrote them down to guard them from corruption:

Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people: "Keep all these commands that I give you today. When you have crossed the Jordan into the land the LORD your God is giving you, set up some large stones and coat them with plaster. WRITE ON THEM ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW when you have crossed over to enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD, the God of your fathers, promised you. And when you have crossed the Jordan, set up these stones on Mount Ebal, as I command you today, and coat them with plaster. Build there an altar to the LORD your God, an altar of stones. Do not use any iron tool upon them. Build the altar of the LORD your God with fieldstones and offer burnt offerings on it to the LORD your God. Sacrifice fellowship offerings there, eating them and rejoicing in the presence of the LORD your God. AND YOU SHALL WRITE VERY CLEARLY ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW ON THESE STONES YOU HAVE SET UP." Then Moses and the priests, who are Levites, said to all Israel, "Be silent, O Israel, and listen! You have now become the people of the LORD your God. Obey the LORD your God and follow his commands and decrees that I give you today." Duet. 27:1-10

The law was so sacred until YHWH almighty would send plagues on people who'd disobeyed it:

If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name--the LORD your God-- the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. Duet. 28:58-58

Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deut. 30:9-10

Notice that the Bible clearly says that the laws were written down. Therefore if they were corrupted as Osama claimed then every correct copy of the Law would have to be collected, burned and replaced with a new one without the people knowing!! So we ask Muslims such as Osama, when did this happen before Jeremiah? Show us some proof, however he can't since he can only quote verses out of context. Even in other places in the Bible after the supposed corruption of the law we see clearly that God's prophet's that are even mentioned in the Quran, attest to the law being with them:

They worshiped idols, though the LORD had said, "You shall not do this." The LORD warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: "Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your fathers to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets." But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. 2 Kings 17:13-14

I will not again make the feet of the Israelites wander from the land I gave their forefathers, if only they will be careful to do everything I commanded them and will keep the WHOLE LAW that my servant Moses gave them." 2 Kings 21:8

Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, "I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD." He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 2 Kings 22:8

Even before Jeremiah the law was well established and was never mentioned after being corrupted. So if Jeremiah claimed that the Bible was corrupted why is people after him being instructed by YHWH to still use it? Its because it never was corrupted. Read:

this Ezra came up from Babylon. He was a teacher well versed in the Law of Moses, which the LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAD GIVEN. The king had granted him everything he asked, for the hand of the LORD his God was on him. Ezra 7:6

Artaxerxes, king of kings, To Ezra the priest, a teacher of the Law of the God of heaven: Greetings. Ezra 7:12

Not only do we see that after Jeremiah God was still using the law but we will let David, under the inspiration of YHWH (a great man in the Quran), finish with this about the law:

THE LAW OF THE LORD IS PERFECT, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are TRUSTWORTHY, making wise the simple. Psalm 19:7

Osama's lie about Jeremiah 8:8 is nothing more than a mere hoax.

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

When we look at the content around this verse we will see just how desperate Osama is. He lies by trying to make the people the Bible!! Read:

So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites. The LORD gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: "Be strong and courageous, for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you." AFTER MOSES FINISHED WRITING IN A BOOK THE WORDS OF THIS LAW FROM BEGINNING TO END, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. THERE IT WILL REMAIN AS A WITNESS AGAINST YOU. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. FOR I KNOW AFTER MY DEATH YOU ARE SURE TO BECOME UTTERLY CORRUPT and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

Moses had already wrotten the Law down and he was to use it as a witness against the elders who were evil!!! Notice in this passage that after Moses death, it is the elders, not the law who will become corrupt. This is verified more when we see that "disaster will befall them since they did evil in the sight of the LORD". How can a book perform actions as a human being? This is something that Osama also has yet to address. He has intentially lied to make the elders the law, when the passage says that the law would be a witness and was already in the safety of the ark! Osama intentionally lied!! What ashame, can't prove bible corruption so you resort to bible misintepretation. Notice that this slander is found on most of his web pages!!!

Hence, If Dueteronomy 31:25-29 proves bible corruption as Osama claims how come verses after this one in books later following show the legitamcy of the law? Read:

He teaches your precepts to Jacob and YOUR LAW TO ISRAEL. He offers incense before you and whole burnt offerings on your altar. Deut 33:10

Notice that in the next chapter after Osama's claimed Bible corruption we see God talking about teaching the law to Israel!!

No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. "Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. DO NOT LET THIS BOOK OF THE LAW DEPART FROM YOUR MOUTH; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN IT. Then you will be prosperous and successful. (Joshua 1:5-8)

If the law was already corrupted in Deuteronomy how come Joshua, which came later is explictedly told by Yahweh almighty that he must obey all the law that was written down with him? Simple, because the bible never was corrupted or would it ever be corrupted.

as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the Israelites. He built it according to WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK of the Law of Moses--an altar of uncut stones, on which no iron tool had been used. On it they offered to the LORD burnt offerings and sacrificed fellowship offerings. There, in the presence of the Israelites, JOSHUA COPIED ON STONES THE LAW OF MOSES, WHICH HE HAD WRITTEN. All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it--the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel. Afterward, Joshua read all the words of the law--the blessings and the curses--JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW. There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded that Joshua did not read to the whole assembly of Israel, including the women and children, and the aliens who lived among them. (Joshua 8:31-35)

But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul." (Joshua 22:5)

God almighty is continuously telling his people to obey his command in his law after Dueteronomy 31:25-29. We see that Osama's theory is again a bogus lie propogated by his lackluster reading skills.

"Be very strong; be careful to OBEY ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left. (Joshua 23:6)

And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. Then he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak near the holy place of the LORD. "See!" he said to all the people. "This stone will be a witness against us. It has heard all the words the LORD has said to us. It will be a witness against you if you are untrue to your God." (Joshua 24:26-27)

The law was still uncorrupt long after the passage that Osama claimed and we see that it was taught over 1000 years later in Judah:

With them were certain Levites--Shemaiah, Nethaniah, Zebadiah, Asahel, Shemiramoth, Jehonathan, Adonijah, Tobijah and Tob-Adonijah--and the priests Elishama and Jehoram. They taught throughout Judah, TAKING WITH THEM THE BOOK OF THE LAW OF THE LORD; they went around to all the towns of Judah and taught the people. (2 Chron. 17:8-9)

With this ample evidence being shown lets expose Osama's misunderstading clearer about his claim of Deut 31:25-29 showing corruption:

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

This verse particular is verse 29 which says:

For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

However Osama violates his own word on his other web pages when he claims this about incomplete quoting:

This is bogus and unacceptable in the professional world of dialogues.

We wonder why he doesn't follow his own bogus word? However read verse 28 before verse 29:

ASSEMBLE BEFORE ME ALL THE ELDERS of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words IN THEIR HEARING and call heaven and earth to TESTIFY AGAINST THEM.

NOW READ VERSE 29 For I know that after my death YOU ARE SURE TO BECOME UTTERLY CORRUPT and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

Verse 28 says Moses is testifying against the elders and then verse 29 says that they will become corrupt using the LAW as a witness against their corruption from the previous verses!!! Lets look at these verses compared with Joshua 24:26-28, to bring this point home:

AFTER MOSES FINISHED WRITING IN A BOOK THE WORDS OF THIS LAW FROM BEGINNING TO END, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. THERE IT WILL REMAIN AS A WITNESS AGAINST YOU...ASSEMBLE BEFORE ME ALL THE ELDERS of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words IN THEIR HEARING and call heaven and earth to TESTIFY AGAINST THEM. For I know that after my death YOU ARE SURE TO BECOME UTTERLY CORRUPT and to turn from the way I have commanded you. (Deut. 31:24-26,28-29) And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. Then he took a LARGE STONE and set it up there under the oak near the holy place of the LORD. "See!" he said to all the people. "THIS STONE WILL BE A WITNESS AGAINST US. It has heard all the words the LORD has said to us. IT WILL BE A WITNESS AGAINST YOU if you are untrue to your God." (Joshua 24:26-27)

Both Joshua and Moses performed the same functions and used the law as a witness against unbelievers. The Law isn't corrupted nor did the Bible ever say that it will be corrupted.

 



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:28am

Here is my response to fredifreeloader

Whether you like them or not, Deuteronomy 31:25-29 and Jeremiah 8:8-9 are there right in the Bible to prove that the Bible is corrupted into a lie by its keepers! 

It is very interesting to know that even you fredifreeloader
call the Bible a lie by quoting your own words: 'this is it with you people, one lie just leads to another, and you soon become enmeshed in deceit'!

Deceit? What deceit? I am quoting the verses of  your own Bible and you call them the deceit!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:37am
Also, I'd like to point out that I take great exception to the thread being titled "the crucifixion" is a "lie."  I consider this an insult to Christianity, and expect the moderators here to forthwith edit the title.  Would Christians be allowed, for instance, to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?"


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:56am

Alibaba's statements are referred: The verses you site have absolutely nothing to do with changing the text of God's Words.  You need to hone your exegetical skills if your going to run with the big boys.  God over and over and over says that His Word will last foreve and that He is might to preserve it

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Bigboys? lol........It seems to me that you are BIGLIAR rather than a bigboy!  It is my pleasure to refute your lies. Allah (God) will not contradict His own Word because He is the All Wise so who did corrupt His word into a lie?

 Here are some examples of the so many errors and contradictions of the Bible and I dare you Alibaba to refute them by using concrete proofs:

1.  God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
        God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

2.  God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
        God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

3.  God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
       God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19

4.  God is unchangeable
         James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
        God is changeable
         Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
          Ex 33:1,3,17,14

5.  God is the author of evil
          Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
         God is not the author of evil
          1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

6.  God tempts men
          Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
         God tempts no man
          James 1:13

7.  There is but one God
          Deut 6:4
         There is a plurality of gods
          Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

8.  Robbery commanded
          Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
         Robbery forbidden
          Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

9.  The making of images forbidden
           Ex 20:4
         The making of images commanded
          Ex 25:18,20

10.  Judging of others forbidden
          Matt 7:1,2
         Judging of others approved
          1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

11.  Christ taught non-resistance
          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

12.  Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1

13.  Baptism commanded
          Matt 28:19
         Baptism not commanded
          1 Cor 1:17,14

14.  Adultery forbidden
          Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
         Adultery allowed
          Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

15.   Man was created after the other animals
          Gen 1:25,26,27
         Man was created before the other animals
          Gen 2:18,19

16.  Moses feared Pharaoh
          Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
         Moses did not fear Pharaoh
          Heb 11:27

17.  John the Baptist was Elias
          Matt 11:14
         John the Baptist was not Elias
          John 1:21

18.  Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15

19.  Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
          Matt 12:40
         Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9

20.  Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at    
         Jerusalem
          Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
         Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
          Matt 28:16,17

21.  Christ is equal with God
           John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
          Christ is not equal with God
           John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
    

22.  Jesus was all-powerful
           Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
          Jesus was not all-powerful
           Mark 6:5

23. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
          The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Matt 5:17-19

24. Christ's mission was peace
           Luke 2:13,14
          Christ's mission was not peace
           Matt 10:34

25. Christ received not testimony from man
           John 5:33,34
          Christ did receive testimony from man
           John 15:27

26. Christ's witness of himself is true.
           John 8:18,14
          Christ's witness of himself is not true.
           John 5:31

Hey Alibaba...Are those words of the Bible the Word of God who says that His Word will last forever and that He is might to preserve it? Would you attribute those errors to God? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. God will not corrupt His own Word so it is the keepers of the Bible who corrupt the Bible into a lie !

That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur’an 15:9]. The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants: 'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow' (Quran  al Baqarah 2:38).

 

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 8:08am

Alibaba's statement: Also, I'd like to point out that I take great exception to the thread being titled "the crucifixion" is a "lie."  I consider this an insult to Christianity, and expect the moderators here to forthwith edit the title.  Would Christians be allowed, for instance, to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?"

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Hey Alibaba... Why are you so afraid of my article? Don't u have any guts to face it? You are a coward for asking the moderators here to forthwith edit the title! Don't you know that I am quoting the verses of your own Bible to prove my point that the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie? Don't you believe in your Bible? I dare you to refute all the Biblical verses that I use to support my point! Yeah the truth hurts you and you are afraid to face it!

I am not surprised to see you asking for permission to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?" because I have seen so many non-Muslims like you slander Islam, Allah, the prophet Muhammad and Muslims in the media and on the internet. I am not afraid of your threat for it will be my pleasure to refute all of your lies!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 8:35am

AbRah,

“I am not surprised to see you [Alibaba] asking for permission to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?" because I have seen so many non-Muslims like you slander Islam, Allah, the prophet Muhammad and Muslims in the media and on the internet. I am not afraid of your threat for it will be my pleasure to refute all of your lies!”

Sorry.  Alibaba has not “asked permission” to start such a thread.  This is the second time (that I have read) where, because you have evidently  encountered slander by non-Muslims on other boards, in the media, etc.,  you seem in effect to specifically accuse (first) George and (now) Alibaba of being given to slander here, at IC.   Please produce your proof.  Consider using the “Quote” feature of this board and highlight any slanderous comment that they, George, Alibaba (or any of us non-Muslims) have made.  That way, the comment can be scrutinized and the originator of the comment could also have an opportunity, if necessary, to explain him or herself.  Perhaps that way communications could improve.  

 

Thank you.

 

Servetus



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 8:35am

Why are the moderators allowing this person to personally and intentionally call another poster a BIGLIAR?  AbRAH is not here to discuss/debate. His intentions are quite less than honorable.  What if I were to call him a BIGLIAR?  I believe you need to treat all persons on this forum with equal dignity and respect.  This is NOT being done.  AbRAH is here to cause hard feelings, chaos, and hate.  He is not here to debate or to learn, or even really to express Islamic beliefs.  He is here to create great division amongst people of other faiths and Muslims.  By your lack of response, you are giving him the nod.  If you don't want people of other religions to participate on this message forum, just say so and we'll be gone.  If you DO want us to stay and discuss our religions, then give us equal respect and dignity.

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 8:49am
Perhaps if we posted a thread called "Muslims are Big Liars," it would get some response. However, as Christians, we shouldn't resort to the same tactics our enemies use.


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 8:58am

Has anyone (who is calling for moderators, or heavier moderation) used the “report” feature of this board and reported this thread?

 

Serv  



Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 9:18am
Originally posted by AbRah2006

Here is my response to fredifreeloader

Whether you like them or not, Deuteronomy 31:25-29 and Jeremiah 8:8-9 are there right in the Bible to prove that the Bible is corrupted into a lie by its keepers! 

It is very interesting to know that even you fredifreeloader
call the Bible a lie by quoting your own words: 'this is it with you people, one lie just leads to another, and you soon become enmeshed in deceit'!

Deceit? What deceit? I am quoting the verses of  your own Bible and you call them the deceit!

according to you, (and you have now repeated it twice) these verses from deuteronomy 31: 25-29 prove that the bible has been corrupted into a lie.  here are the verses:

25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD : 26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. 29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

the only time the word "corrupt" occurs is in v. 29, and it says the children of israel would become corrupt.  there is nothing here to indicate any corruption in the Word of God.  in fact the verses clearly point to its preservation, because it says that the Holy Word would be kept to stand as a witness against them in their evil.  and yet you claim it is proof that the Holy Word has been corrupted.  what a lie!

you have obviously copied all this muck straight off some evil, antichrist website, without even checking anything youve read on it



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 10:29am

Regarding Abby's degrading remarks about the Bible - and the junk he posted from the anti-Christian website.  Any 5th grade Sunday School student would be able to resolve any so-called conflicts that are reported to exist.  Just look up the verses for yourself.  For instance, the silly one where Abby says that Jesus commanded baptism and Paul refutes that - what an outrageous lie.  Paul was talking about party-spirit (I'm following this guy, you're following that guy) - never did Paul refute baptism. 

This is just an example of Abby's silly polemics and inability to engage in any exchange of ideas demanding an IQ of 70 or above.

 



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 11:47am

Originally posted by AbRah2006

The contradictions of the Bible have proven that the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax:

Comment:  No they don't. 

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(1)Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15 

Answer:  Both Gospel writers are correct.  The difficulty is answered when you realize that each Gospel writer used a different time system.  John follows the Roman time system while Mark follows the Jewish time system.

According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight.  The Jewish 24 hour period began in the evening at 6PM and the morning of that day began at 6AM.  Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9AM.  John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour.  This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers.  This fits with John's other references to time.  For example, he speaks about Jesus being weary from His journey from His trip from Judea to Samaria at the "sixth hour" and asking fo r water from the woman at the well.  Considering the length of his trip, his weariness, and the normal evening time when people come to the well to drink and to water their animals, this fits better with 6PM, which is "the sixth hour" of the night by Roman time reckoning.  The same is true of John's reference to the tenth hour in John 1:39, which would be 10AM, a more likely time to be out preaching than 4AM.

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(2)Christ was to be three days and three nights in the   grave Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9 

Answer:  Matt 12:40, For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mark 15: 25 Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.

Mark 15: 42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. 45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. 46 Then he bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.

Mark 16: 9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons.

You are going to have to explain your problem here because I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(3)Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights.  Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days!  {/QUOTE]

Answer:  There is a big difference between Hebrew speech in the first century and English speech in the 21st century.  You fail to make allowance for the fact that in those times, nearly two thousand years ago, the Jews counted any part of a day as a whole day when computing any consecutive periods of time. As Jesus was laid in the tomb on the Friday afternoon, was there throughout the Saturday, and only rose sometime before dawn on the Sunday (the Sunday having officially started at sunset on the Saturday according to the Jewish calendar), there can be no doubt that he was in the tomb for a period of three days.

The expression three days and three nights is the sort of expression that we never, speaking English in the 21st century, use today. We must obviously therefore seek its meaning according to its use as a Hebrew colloquialism in the first century and are very likely to err if we judge or interpret it according to the language structure or figures of speech in a very different language in a much later age.

Furthermore we must also note that the figure of speech, as used in Hebrew, always had the same number of days and nights. Moses fasted forty days and forty nights (Exodus 24.18). Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights (Jonah 1.17). Job's friends sat with him seven days and seven nights (Job 2.13). We can see that no Jew would have spoken of "seven days and six nights" or "three days and two nights", even if this was the period he was describing. The colloquialism always spoke of an equal number of days and nights and, if a Jew wished to speak of a period of three days which covered only two nights, he would have to speak of three days and three nights. A fine example of this is found in the Book of Esther where the queen said that no one was to eat or drink for three days, night or day (Esther 4.16), but on the third day, when only two nights had passed, she went into the king's chamber and the fast was ended.

So we see quite plainly that "three days and three nights", in Jewish terminology, did not necessarily imply a full period of three actual days and three actual nights but was simply a colloquialism used to cover any part of the first and third days.

The important thing to note is that an equal number of days and nights were always spoken of, even if the actual nights were one less than the days referred to. As we do not use such figures of speech today we cannot pass hasty judgments on their meaning, nor can we force them to yield the natural interpretations that we would place on them.

There is conclusive proof in the Bible that when Jesus told the Jews he would be three days and three nights in the earth, they took this to mean that the fulfilment of the prophecy could be expected after only two nights. On the day after his crucifixion, that is, after only one night, they went to Pilate and said:

Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, 'After three days I will rise again'. Therefore order the sepulchre to be made secure until the third day.

Matthew 27.63-64.

We would understand the expression "after three days" to mean anytime on the fourth day but, according to the colloquialism, the Jews knew this referred to the third day and were not concerned to keep the tomb secured through three full nights but only until the third day after just too nights. Clearly, therefore, the expressions "three days and three nights" and "after three days" did not mean a full period of seventy-two hours as we would understand them, but any period of time covering a period of up to three days.

If someone told anyone of us on a Friday afternoon in these days that he would return to us after three days we would probably not expect him back before the following Tuesday at the earliest. The Jews, however, anxious to prevent any fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy were only concerned to have the tomb secured until the third day, that is, the Sunday, because they knew that the expressions "after three days" and "three days and three nights" were not to be taken literally but according to the figures of speech that they used in their times.

The important question is, not how we read such colloquialisms which have no place in our figures of speech today, but how the Jews read them according to the terminology of their times. It is very significant to note that when the disciples boldly claimed that Jesus had risen from the dead on the third day, that is, on the Sunday after only two nights had passed (e.g. Acts 10.40), no one ever attempted to counter this testimony as by claiming that three nights would have to pass before the prophecy could be deemed to be fulfilled. The Jews of those times knew their language well and it is only because some are ignorant of their manners of speech that they presumptuously attack the prophecy Jesus made, simply because he was not in the tomb for an actual three-day and three-night period of seventy-two hours. (This means that Jonah's sojourn in the fish also only covered a partial period of three days and was not necessarily three actual days and ni ghts either).

 

Originally posted by AbRah2006

 

(4)In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."  This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion. 

Answer:  Jesus' soul went immediately to paradise, which is the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4), but His body went to the grave for 3 days.  Jesus said on the cross, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit" (Luke 23:46), which indicates His soul went to be with the Father in heaven the very instant He died.  When Jesus said to Mary after His resurrection, "I have not yet ascended to My Father," He was referring to his body ascending into heaven 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1), not to his to his soul going to heaven between death and resurrection. 

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(5)Jesus commands the disciples to go into Galilee immediately after the resurrection. Matthew 28:10. Jesus commands the disciples to "tarry in Jerusalem" immediately after the resurrection.(Luke 24:49)

Answer:  First, it is possible that the command was not given until after they had been in Galilee.  In this event there would be no conflict whatsoever.  Furthermore, the command to "tarry" simply meant to make Jerusalem their headquarters.  It did not preclude taking short trips elsewhere.  Jerusalem was the place they were to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:49) and to being their work.

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(6)Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at  JerusalemLuke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19.
         Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee Matt 28:16,17 

Scriptures: Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)

Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)

Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)

John: In a room, at evening (20:19)

Answer:  In a room at Jerusalem, as reported by Luke and John (and Mark). Matthew 28:16-20 is a later appearance.

Originally posted by AbRah2006



(7) The Bible contradicts itself by saying:(a) Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

(b)Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

 Question: How could Jesus die at two different places (the tree and the cross) at the same time? 

Answer:  The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees.  The Romans did not hang criminals from trees, except in exceptional cases.  When they crucified, the Romans used some form of a cross—a platform that had a crossbar attached to the main vertical stake.  By New Testament times the Romans were using several different cross forms for crucifixion.  One was the so-called St. Anthony's cross, shaped like a T.  Another was called the Latin cross in which a horizontal crossbar intersected the upright bean somewhere along it upper half.  One of these two cross forms most likely was used for the execution of Jesus Christ. 

 

Originally posted by AbRah2006

8. The Christians claim that Jesus was crucified for their sins but the Bible refutes their false claim by saying that Christians are sinless 1 John 3: 9,6,8 

Answer:  Jesus did die for our sins.  John is not asserting sinless perfection (see 1:8-10) but explaining that the believer's life is characterized not by sin but by doing what is right.

Originally posted by AbRah2006

9. The Christians claim that Jesus was resurrected after he was crucified but the Bible refutes their claim by saying that there is to be no resurrection of the dead
           Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14

Answer: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/norez.html

Originally posted by AbRah2006

10. Let us read this verse 'Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified. ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#top - - Matthew 26:2 )'. If anyone believes his prediction in http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#top - - Matt 26:2 ,  then Jesus must have known of his upcoming crucifixion. As we all know that Christians claim that Jesus is God. If Jesus equals a god, then he could not have sacrificed his life, simply because an infinite god cannot die. If Jesus died as just a man, then he committed what we would today call suicide.

Answer:  Yes, Jesus knew he would die and predicted his death.  God did not die.  The Son was separated from his source of life for three days.  Jesus did not commit suicide. 

Originally posted by AbRah2006

The contradictions of the Bible have invalidated the crucifixion of Jesus so the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax! 

Answer:  Not in the least.  As you can plainly see you have misinterpreted what the Bible is telling you.

[QUOTE= AbRah2006]

Conclusion: Jesus was not crucified for Allah  the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate had saved him  :That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-  And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (Quran 4:157-158)

Answer:  Jesus was crucified.  Take a look at the evidence in Patty's thread on this subject.  I think that 4:157-58 has been misinterpreted as I explained in Patty's thread and I might add that some modern Muslim scholars agree with me.

Peace


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 12:10pm

Originally posted by AbRah2006

 

This is written in much more clear detail in the Gospel of Barnabas

 

The "Gospel of Barnabas" that you speak of is a 15-16th forgery.  Muslims have been warned to stay away from it.  It contradicts the Qur'an.

 

The Muslim scholar Cyril Glassé states:

As regards the "Gospel of Barnabas" itself, there is no question that it is a medieval forgery.  A complete Italian manuscript exists which appears to be a translation from a Spanish original (which exists in part), written to curry favor with Muslims of the time.  It contains anachronisms which can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet "the Messiah", which Islam does not claim for him.  Besides its farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha'Allah are of the Koran.

The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p. 64  

Please see:  http://www.muslimhope.com/ForgeryOfTheGospelOfBarnabas.htm - http://www.muslimhope.com/ForgeryOfTheGospelOfBarnabas.htm

 

Look like you have been taken in by a hoax, AbRah.

 

Peace



Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 12:20pm

there is a clear example of this three days and nights business in 1 kings 12: 5, 12.  king rehoboam tells the people to go away for three days in v. 5, to give him time to make up his mind about their request.  this seems to indicate clearly that they are to come back on the fourth day.  but when we look down to v. 12, we read that they came back the third day, as the king had appointed.  but we would have said they had only been away two days.

different cultures have different ways of counting the days.  look at the french.  two weeks in france is "quinze jours", which means literally fifteen days, but in my country two weeks is only fourteen days



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 2:22pm
Yes, George, you are quite right in pointing out that the so-called "Gospel of Barnabas" has been proven to be a medieval forgery.  I'm quite taken that anybody would dare to use that to support their arguments - sort of like using the DaVinci Code for theology.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 2:50pm

Don't even think of getting me going regarding The DaVinci Code...what a piece of blasphemy!  Sony has received their last purchase from this household!!! (For sponsoring that piece of trash)

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 4:32pm

Servetus's statement: Sorry.  Alibaba has not “asked permission” to start such a thread.  This is the second time (that I have read) where, because you have evidently  encountered slander by non-Muslims on other boards, in the media, etc.,  you seem in effect to specifically accuse (first) George and (now) Alibaba of being given to slander here, at IC.   Please produce your proof.  Consider using the “Quote” feature of this board and highlight any slanderous comment that they, George, Alibaba (or any of us non-Muslims) have made.  That way, the comment can be scrutinized and the originator of the comment could also have an opportunity, if necessary, to explain him or herself.  Perhaps that way communications could improve. 

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------

Here is what Alibaba has written to me : Also, I'd like to point out that I take great exception to the thread being titled "the crucifixion" is a "lie."  I consider this an insult to Christianity, and expect the moderators here to forthwith edit the title.  Would Christians be allowed, for instance, to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?"

Servetus's statement: Sorry.  Alibaba has not “asked permission” to start such a thread.  This is the second time (that I have read) where, because you have evidently  encountered slander by non-Muslims on other boards, in the media, etc.,  you seem in effect to specifically accuse (first) George and (now) Alibaba of being given to slander here, at IC.  

My comment: The words that say (I am quoting Alibaba's statement) 'I consider this an insult to Christianity, and expect the moderators here to forthwith edit the title.  Would Christians be allowed, for instance, to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?" ' have refuted Servetus' allegation! The words of Alibaba is enough for me to say that he is threatening me for my article! He is afraid of my articles because truth hurt Alibaba badly! To Servetus... I would to say that I am not slandering everybody because my answers are based on their own statement!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:16pm

Huh???  Does someone have a language barrier, or am I missing something?

God's Peace,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:46pm

George's statement: Answer:  The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees. 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here is my response to George's statements:

I will refute all of your statements as soon as possible one by one. However I will refute one of your statements ( I quote) ' The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees.  '

My comment: George you are contradicting your own words ...How can you say that the tree is the cross? Can you say the burger is the chicken ? Is the cow the beef? Is the pig the pork?  Why don't you call the cross the tree? The burger the chicken? The pig the pork? Is a wooden house a tree to you George? We can say that apple is a tree...Can we say that a cross is a tree?

I think it is funny to see you refuting your own statement by saying 'The Romans made their crosses from trees.' after you had made the 1st statement ' The tree is the cross'....Even you contradict your own word so the contradictions of the Bible do exist!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 16 May 2006 at 8:14pm

To Patty, Alibaba, Serventus, George ... I have read all of your articles and statements and I find that some of them are slandering Islam...As a Muslim I feel that I am being offended by your articles and statements but I never ask anybody to delete yours because I am not a coward! After all I am a gentleman.

I give some examples of the articles and statements made by you that offend Muslims like me:

1) I quote George's statement:YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! I can find no evidence that the Jews ever called Uzair a son of Allah, not from Christian sources and not from Jewish sources.  I contacted a Jewish scholar and he said the same thing.

My comment: This George's article or statement has convinced me that George try to slander Quran by saying that it lies. For your knowlegede Uzair (Ezra) was a learned man of the Torah and his knowledge of the Torah had convinced some Jews to call Uzair (Ezra) a son of God for they thought he was very closed to God like a son to a father for having good knowlegde of the Torah after it was destroyed by the invaders.

2) I quote Alibaba's statement: Why does Mohammed confuse Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam, the sister of Aaron and Moses?  It seems to me that Mohammed got his Marys mixed up to say the very least.

My comment: This Alibaba's statement or article tries to slander Quran by saying that Quran and Muhammad lie about Mary. The Bible is not a reliable source so I don't trust it. I belive in the Quran because Quran never contradicts itself!

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

Here are some examples of the so many errors and contradictions of the Bible and I dare you Alibaba to refute them by using concrete proofs:

1.  God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
        God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

2.  God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
        God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

3.  God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
       God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19

4.  God is unchangeable
         James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
        God is changeable
         Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
          Ex 33:1,3,17,14

5.  God is the author of evil
          Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
         God is not the author of evil
          1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

6.  God tempts men
          Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
         God tempts no man
          James 1:13

7.  There is but one God
          Deut 6:4
         There is a plurality of gods
          Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

8.  Robbery commanded
          Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
         Robbery forbidden
          Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

9.  The making of images forbidden
           Ex 20:4
         The making of images commanded
          Ex 25:18,20

10.  Judging of others forbidden
          Matt 7:1,2
         Judging of others approved
          1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

11.  Christ taught non-resistance
          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

12.  Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1

13.  Baptism commanded
          Matt 28:19
         Baptism not commanded
          1 Cor 1:17,14

14.  Adultery forbidden
          Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
         Adultery allowed
          Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

15.   Man was created after the other animals
          Gen 1:25,26,27
         Man was created before the other animals
          Gen 2:18,19

16.  Moses feared Pharaoh
          Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
         Moses did not fear Pharaoh
          Heb 11:27

17.  John the Baptist was Elias
          Matt 11:14
         John the Baptist was not Elias
          John 1:21

18.  Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15

19.  Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
          Matt 12:40
         Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9

20.  Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at    
         Jerusalem
          Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
         Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
          Matt 28:16,17

21.  Christ is equal with God
           John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
          Christ is not equal with God
           John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
    

22.  Jesus was all-powerful
           Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
          Jesus was not all-powerful
           Mark 6:5

23. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
          The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Matt 5:17-19

24. Christ's mission was peace
           Luke 2:13,14
          Christ's mission was not peace
           Matt 10:34

25. Christ received not testimony from man
           John 5:33,34
          Christ did receive testimony from man
           John 15:27

26. Christ's witness of himself is true.
           John 8:18,14
          Christ's witness of himself is not true.
           John 5:31

Hey Alibaba...Are those words of the Bible the Word of God who says that His Word will last forever and that He is might to preserve it? Would you attribute those errors to God? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. God will not corrupt His own Word so it is the keepers of the Bible who corrupt the Bible into a lie !

That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur’an 15:9]. The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants: 'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow' (Quran  al Baqarah 2:38).

Conclusion: (1) The Bible contains so many errrors and contradictions so it is not a reliable source.

(2) God sends Quran to all mankind through His last messenger Muhammad to replace the unreliable Bible.

 

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:43am

Patty's statement: Why is this person continually allowed by the moderator(s) to insult Christians and their beliefs?  We are very careful not to say anything which would be considered an insult to Islam.  Why is that not reciprocated on this board?  Are you people still teenagers?  Are you unable to behave like adults and carry on adult dialogue and debate? 

............................................................ .....................................

I quote Patty's statements : (1) Christianity teaches that Jesus was crucified. All four Gospels record the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.  But Muhammad and the Quran say that Christ was not crucified.  Muhammad appeared on the scene about 600 years after Jesus.  Muhammad claimed to receive 'revelations' from Allah, given to him through Gabriel.  One of Muhammad's revelations was that Jesus was not crucified.  (2) CONCLUSION: Jesus Christ was crucified.  All of the known evidence supports and corroborates the crucifixion.  There is no legitimate reason doubting Christ’s crucifixion

My comment: Hey Patty don't you know that you are contradicting your own words? You said that I had insulted Christians and their beliefs by proving that the crucifixion of Jesus was a lie.

It is very interesting to know that it was you who posted the article 'CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION' on 10 May 2006 at 5:55am to insult Islam by making such bad conclusion! I wrote and posted an article 'The Crucifixion of Jesus is a lie' on 15 May 2006 at 10:25am to prove that you were wrong but you were so arrogant for saying that I had insulted the Christians and their beliefs while you pretending to be a good person and condoning your own misdeeds! Do you know what hypocrite means?

I will refute your article soon!

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 3:48am

George's statement: According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight.  The Jewish 24 hour period began in the evening at 6PM and the morning of that day began at 6AM.  Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9AM. John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour.  This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers.  This fits with John's other references to time.For example, he speaks about Jesus being weary from His journey from His trip from Judea to Samaria at the "sixth hour" and asking fo r water from the woman at the well.  Considering the length of his trip, his weariness, and the normal evening time when people come to the well to drink and to water their animals, this fits better with 6PM, which is "the sixth hour" of the night by Roman time reckoning.  The same is true of John's reference to the tenth hour in John 1:39, which would be 10AM, a more likely time to be out preaching than 4AM.

............................................................ ................................

Here is my response to refute George's statement:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/hour.html - When (at what hour) was Jesus crucified?
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/passover_meal.html - Was Jesus crucified the day before or the day after the Passover meal?  

According to John Jesus was crucified on the day before the Passover meal : http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/19.html#14 - Jn.19:14-16 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.

According to Mathew Jesus was crucified on the day after the Passover meal: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/14.html#12 - Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/15.html#25 - Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

The Gospels contradict themselves that proves that the Gospels are not  the reliable books so the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie. Can you win a case by giving contradictory statements to support your case in the court? Contradictions happen when the event is a fiction! If the crucifixion of Jesus is true how come the Gospels contradict one another? If the witnesses were honest and trustworthy, why did they give contradictory statements?

Why do you George lie to support your false claim that Jesus was crucified?  Aren't you ashamed of yourself?



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 5:27am
Originally posted by George

Originally posted by AbRah2006

The contradictions of the Bible have proven that the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax:

Comment:  No they don't. 

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(1)Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15 

Answer:  Both Gospel writers are correct.  The difficulty is answered when you realize that each Gospel writer used a different time system.  John follows the Roman time system while Mark follows the Jewish time system.

According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight.  The Jewish 24 hour period began in the evening at 6PM and the morning of that day began at 6AM.  Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9AM.  John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour.  This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers.  This fits with John's other references to time.  For example, he speaks about Jesus being weary from His journey from His trip from Judea to Samaria at the "sixth hour" and asking fo r water from the woman at the well.  Considering the length of his trip, his weariness, and the normal evening time when people come to the well to drink and to water their animals, this fits better with 6PM, which is "the sixth hour" of the night by Roman time reckoning.  The same is true of John's reference to the tenth hour in John 1:39, which would be 10AM, a more likely time to be out preaching than 4AM.

[QUOTE= AbRah2006]

(7) The Bible contradicts itself by saying:(a) Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

(b)Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

 Question: How could Jesus die at two different places (the tree and the cross) at the same time? 

Answer:  The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees.  The Romans did not hang criminals from trees, except in exceptional cases.  When they crucified, the Romans used some form of a cross—a platform that had a crossbar attached to the main vertical stake.  By New Testament times the Romans were using several different cross forms for crucifixion.  One was the so-called St. Anthony's cross, shaped like a T.  Another was called the Latin cross in which a horizontal crossbar intersected the upright bean somewhere along it upper half.  One of these two cross forms most likely was used for the execution of Jesus Christ. 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------

Here is my response to George's answers:

I will refute all of your statements as soon as possible one by one. However I will refute one of your statements ( I quote) ' The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees.  '

My comment: George you are contradicting your own words ...How can you say that the tree is the cross? Can you say the burger is the chicken ? Is the cow the beef? Is the pig the pork?  Why don't you call the cross the tree? The burger the chicken? The pig the pork? Is a wooden house a tree to you George? We can say that apple is a tree...Can we say that a cross is a tree?

I think it is funny to see you refuting your own statement by saying 'The Romans made their crosses from trees.' after you had made the 1st statement ' The tree is the cross'....Even you contradict your own word so the contradictions of the Bible do exist!

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/hour.html - When (at what hour) was Jesus crucified?
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/passover_meal.html - Was Jesus crucified the day before or the day after the Passover meal?  

According to John Jesus was crucified on the day before the Passover meal : http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/19.html#14 - Jn.19:14-16 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.

According to Mathew Jesus was crucified on the day after the Passover meal: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/14.html#12 - Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/15.html#25 - Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

The Gospels contradict themselves that proves that the Gospels are not  the reliable books so the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie. Can you win a case by giving contradictory statements to support your case in the court? Contradictions happen when the event is a fiction! If the crucifixion of Jesus is true how come the Gospels contradict one another? If the witnesses were honest and trustworthy, why did they give contradictory statements?

Why do you George lie to support your false claim that Jesus was crucified?  Aren't you ashamed of yourself?



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 5:38am
To George...........I will refute your answers one by one. It is my pleasure to prove that you are wrong.

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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:10am
abrah - you have not refuted anything ive said so far - it that because it exposed your lie so utterly.  i shall return shortly, and deal with more of your lies

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:16am
abrah - you are so ignorant.  there are two greek words translated as "tree" in the new testament - 1.  dendron (a living, growing tree)  2. xulon (wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood) - the second word is used to refer to the cross of our glorious Lord

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:40am
Originally posted by fredifreeloader

Originally posted by AbRah2006

Here is my response to fredifreeloader

Whether you like them or not, Deuteronomy 31:25-29 and Jeremiah 8:8-9 are there right in the Bible to prove that the Bible is corrupted into a lie by its keepers! 

It is very interesting to know that even you fredifreeloader
call the Bible a lie by quoting your own words: 'this is it with you people, one lie just leads to another, and you soon become enmeshed in deceit'!

Deceit? What deceit? I am quoting the verses of  your own Bible and you call them the deceit!

according to you, (and you have now repeated it twice) these verses from deuteronomy 31: 25-29 prove that the bible has been corrupted into a lie.  here are the verses:

25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD : 26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. 29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

the only time the word "corrupt" occurs is in v. 29, and it says the children of israel would become corrupt.  there is nothing here to indicate any corruption in the Word of God.  in fact the verses clearly point to its preservation, because it says that the Holy Word would be kept to stand as a witness against them in their evil.  and yet you claim it is proof that the Holy Word has been corrupted.  what a lie!

you have obviously copied all this muck straight off some evil, antichrist website, without even checking anything youve read on it

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------

Here is my response to refute fredifreeloader's answer:

If the Bible is the Word of God , why does the Bible contradict itself by making so many contradictory statements . Allah is the All Wise God so He will not contradict His own Word so it must be the keepers of the Bible who corrupted the Bible into a lie!

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corruptedDeutronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

'Deutronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you' means that the followers of Moses would become corrupt and they would corrupt the teachings of Moses.

I am not surprised to see how the followers of Moses corrupted themselves easily ....They even worshipped the Golden Calf when Moses was away for 40 days! And they had murdered the prophets of God and they even conspired with enemies to murder the Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad.

The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

Here are some examples of the so many errors and contradictions of the Bible and I dare you fredifreeloader to refute them by using concrete proofs:

1.  God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
        God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
2.  God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
        God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

3.  God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
       God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19
4.  God is unchangeable
         James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
        God is changeable
         Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
          Ex 33:1,3,17,14
5.  God is the author of evil
          Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
         God is not the author of evil
          1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
6.  God tempts men
          Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
         God tempts no man
          James 1:13
7.  There is but one God
          Deut 6:4
         There is a plurality of gods
          Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7
8.  Robbery commanded
          Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
         Robbery forbidden
          Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
9.  The making of images forbidden
           Ex 20:4
         The making of images commanded
          Ex 25:18,20
10.  Judging of others forbidden
          Matt 7:1,2
         Judging of others approved
          1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
11.  Christ taught non-resistance
          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
12.  Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1
13.  Baptism commanded
          Matt 28:19
         Baptism not commanded
          1 Cor 1:17,14
14.  Adultery forbidden
          Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
         Adultery allowed
          Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
15.   Man was created after the other animals
          Gen 1:25,26,27
         Man was created before the other animals
          Gen 2:18,19
16.  Moses feared Pharaoh
          Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
         Moses did not fear Pharaoh
          Heb 11:27
17.  John the Baptist was Elias
          Matt 11:14
         John the Baptist was not Elias
          John 1:21
18.  Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15
19.  Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
          Matt 12:40
         Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9

20.  Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at    
         Jerusalem
          Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
         Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
          Matt 28:16,17
21.  Christ is equal with God
           John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
          Christ is not equal with God
           John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
    

22.  Jesus was all-powerful
           Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
          Jesus was not all-powerful
           Mark 6:5
23. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
          The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Matt 5:17-19
24. Christ's mission was peace
           Luke 2:13,14
          Christ's mission was not peace
           Matt 10:34
25. Christ received not testimony from man
           John 5:33,34
          Christ did receive testimony from man
           John 15:27
26. Christ's witness of himself is true.
           John 8:18,14
          Christ's witness of himself is not true.
           John 5:31

Hey fredifreeloader...Are those words of the Bible the Word of God who says that His Word will last forever and that He is might to preserve it? Would you attribute those errors to God? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. God will not corrupt His own Word so it is the keepers of the Bible who corrupt the Bible into a lie !

That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur’an 15:9]. The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants: 'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow' (Quran  al Baqarah 2:38).

Conclusion: (1) The Bible contains so many errrors and contradictions so it is not a reliable source.

(2) God sends Quran to all mankind through His last messenger Muhammad to replace the unreliable Bible.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:52am

Originally posted by fredifreeloader

abrah - you have not refuted anything ive said so far - it that because it exposed your lie so utterly.  i shall return shortly, and deal with more of your lies

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------

Hey fredifreeloader.....I dare you to refute my points that I had posted specially for you and I am waiting for your answers............It will be my pleasure to prove that you are a big liar! 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 7:03am
That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!


I think you are incorrect, AbRah.  Didn't the Prophet specifically tell Muslims to honor the Injeel, Taurat and Psalms as well as the Qu'ran?

Certainly the Qu'ran has a divine purpose, but does not Islam truly believe it as an ammendment to the original scriptures given to the Abrahamic peoples and not a replacement?

I think you can successfully argue that these more ancient writings can be demonstrated to be imperfect, but your conclusions are overeaching and I believe they are refuted entirely by hadith.


-------------
David C.


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 7:32am
abrah - i have already, in the short time ive had, dared to utterly refute and expose two of your lies.  (and other people have already done much more).   deuteronomy 31: 29 does not mean that they would corrupt the law of God, it means that, being corrupt themselves, they would depart from it.  it does not mean that the holy Word of God we have now is anything other that the original Word of God

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:14am

AbRah,

I want to thank you for this topic.  Even though I do not like your tone or your choice of words, you have given the Christians an opportunity to correct your allegations, mistranslations and misunderstandings.  You have also given the Muslims the opportunity to see our explanations and see how mistaken you are.  Thanks.

God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways.

Peace

 



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:17am

Originally posted by AbRah2006

I will refute all of your statements as soon as possible one by one. However I will refute one of your statements ( I quote) ' The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees.  '

My comment: George you are contradicting your own words ...How can you say that the tree is the cross? Can you say the burger is the chicken ? Is the cow the beef? Is the pig the pork?  Why don't you call the cross the tree? The burger the chicken? The pig the pork? Is a wooden house a tree to you George? We can say that apple is a tree...Can we say that a cross is a tree?

I think it is funny to see you refuting your own statement by saying 'The Romans made their crosses from trees.' after you had made the 1st statement ' The tree is the cross'....Even you contradict your own word so the contradictions of the Bible do exist!

 

Crosses were made out of trees, AbRah2006.  The crosses were made out of wood.  Wood comes from trees.  Get it?

 

Here is an article that might help you through your confusion.

 

http://www.wcg.org/lit/booklets/risen/risen3.htm - http://www.wcg.org/lit/booklets/risen/risen3.htm

 

Peace



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:19am

Originally posted by fredifreeloader

abrah - i have already, in the short time ive had, dared to utterly refute and expose two of your lies.  (and other people have already done much more).   deuteronomy 31: 29 does not mean that they would corrupt the law of God, it means that, being corrupt themselves, they would depart from it.  it does not mean that the holy Word of God we have now is anything other that the original Word of God

............................................................ ............................................................ .

............................................................ ............................................................ ..

Hey fredifreeloader....You had not refuted anything so far! Why don't you refute all the contradictory statements of  the OT and NT that I had given you? Your talk is cheap! I dare you to refute them! Your arrogance prove nothing to me!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:20am

Originally posted by AbRah2006

]

George's statement: According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight.  The Jewish 24 hour period began in the evening at 6PM and the morning of that day began at 6AM.  Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9AM. John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour.  This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers.  This fits with John's other references to time.For example, he speaks about Jesus being weary from His journey from His trip from Judea to Samaria at the "sixth hour" and asking fo r water from the woman at the well.  Considering the length of his trip, his weariness, and the normal evening time when people come to the well to drink and to water their animals, this fits better with 6PM, which is "the sixth hour" of the night by Roman time reckoning.  The same is true of John's reference to the tenth hour in John 1:39, which would be 10AM, a more likely time to be out preaching than 4AM.

............................................................ ................................

Here is my response to refute George's statement:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/hour.html - - Was Jesus crucified the day before or the day after the Passover meal?  

According to John Jesus was crucified on the day before the Passover meal : http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/19.html#14 - And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We hav e no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.

According to Mathew Jesus was crucified on the day after the Passover meal: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/14.html#12 -

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/15.html#25 - The Gospels contradict themselves that proves that the Gospels are not  the reliable books so the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie. Can you win a case by giving contradictory statements to support your case in the court? Contradictions happen when the event is a fiction! If the crucifixion of Jesus is true how come the Gospels contradict one another? If the witnesses were honest and trustworthy, why did they give contradictory statements?

Why do you George lie to support your false claim that Jesus was crucified?  Aren't you ashamed of yourself? 

 

Aren't you ashamed of yourself for not understanding English?  Maybe it is not your first language and it is to be expected.

 

I gave you a lot of tools (websites) in which to find the answers to your own questions.  Why don't you use them, find the answers, and then come back with anything that is confusing you?  I will try to help you out of your confusion as best that I can.

 

Peace



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:26am

Originally posted by AbRah2006

 

1) I quote George's statement:YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! I can find no evidence that the Jews ever called Uzair a son of Allah, not from Christian sources and not from Jewish sources.  I contacted a Jewish scholar and he said the same thing.

My comment: This George's article or statement has convinced me that George try to slander Quran by saying that it lies. For your knowlegede Uzair (Ezra) was a learned man of the Torah and his knowledge of the Torah had convinced some Jews to call Uzair (Ezra) a son of God for they thought he was very closed to God like a son to a father for having good knowlegde of the Torah after it was destroyed by the invaders.

Where did I say that the Qur'an lies?  I asked a question and so far no one has been able to answer it.  The Jews deny that they ever called Ezra a "son of God."

Allah claims that he has no son; YHVH claims that he does.

Peace



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:29am

AbRah2006

 

Since you seem to like the "Gospel" of Barnabas, maybe you could come up with some explanations for the inaccuracies in it.  Here they are:

 

1. In the Gospel of Barnabas (Chapter 1) "Barnabas" is called an Apostle. This is not correct in its implication. Although Barnabas is referred to as an Apostle (Acts 14:4,14), the Gospel of Barnabas concept is quite different.  It says in the introduction that Barnabas was one of the twelve original disciples of Jesus and he was not.

The conversion of Barnabas took place after the Day of Pentecost and consequently he does not qualify for apostleship as outlined in Acts 1:21-22.   The Day of Pentecost happened after Jesus' resurrection so Barnabas was not one of the twelve.

2. The surprised reader of the Gospel of Barnabas finds Nazareth on the shore of Lake Galilee (Chapter 20), whereas it is a town miles away from the Lake, surrounded by mountains.

3. In the next chapter, we see Jesus going UP to Capernaum, whereas Capernaum is situated right on the shore of the Lake.

4. In Chapter 151 we are told that Jesus embarked on a ship (from Nazareth?) and next we read that he arrived in Jerusalem. We might well ask whether this was also done by boat?

5. In Chapter 6 another interesting common error is found. It speaks here of the three Magi or wise men coming from the East. The New Testament does not specify the number, but gives a list of three gifts that were brought by the Magi, namely gold, myrrh and frankincense. This later led to the assumption that there were three wise men from the East. But this belief certainly does not derive or date from the New Testament.

6. In Chapters 91-92 we are told that Jesus and His disciples kept "the 40 days". The context clearly shows that this refers to the period of Lent before Easter, celebrated by the church, but from a very much later period than the days of the early church. (The church meditates at this time on the suffering of Christ, which was obviously unknown when Christ was still alive). We find that Lent was celebrated only from the fourth century A.D. onwards. Jesus and His disciples are said to have gone for the 40 day fast to Mount Sinai. which is some 450 km away. There is no report in the New Testament to confirm this.

7. We are further informed that a certain dispute would have ended in war, but the Romans assembled three armies each numbering 200,000 men at Mizpeh (Chapter 91). The entire Roman army at that time numbered only 300,000, however. (Encyclopædia Britannica).

8. "Jesus drew near to the Priest (High Priest) with reverence, but he was wishful to bow himself down and worship Jesus, when Jesus cried out: 'Beware of that which thou doest, Priest of the Living God! Sin not against our God!" (Chapter 93).

This statement is so contrary to the New Testament, that it needs no explanation.

9. In Ch apter 3 of the Gospel of Barnabas the birth of Christ is described as having been painless. This belief was not current in the Church before Thomas Aquinas (died 1278) but is mentioned in Sura 19:23

10. According to the Gospel of Barnabas Jesus was born when Pilate was governor, but in fact he only became governor between A.D. 26 and 27.

11. Jesus prayed five times a day according to the Gospel of Barnabas and all the Muslim prayer times are mentioned. (Drs. J. Slomp, page 128).

12. Not before the Fourth Century A.D. was the title "Virgin" given to Mary, yet it appears in the Gospel of Barnabas

13. Origen A.D. 184-254 was the first scholar to assume that Mount Tabor was the Mount of Transfiguration. The Bible does not confirm this. The Christian tradition that it was Mount Moriah begins only in the Third Century, and yet the Gospel of Barnabas contains this information.

14. The Gospel of Barnabas mentions four archangels, which is also a trad ition of the church that dated from the early Medieval period.

15. The Islamic concept of "the Book" is found in Chapter 10, where we read that the angel Gabriel presented to Jesus as it were a shining mirror, a book, which descended into the heart of Jesus. This corresponds very well with Suras 5:49 and 2:97.

16. In Chapter 54, the Italian text mentions a denarius, which is made up of 60 minuti. These gold coins were used only in Spain under Khalif Abdul Malik (in 685 A.D.).

17. In Chapter 152 we are informed that soldiers were "rolled out of the temple as one rolleth casks of wood when they are washed to refill them with wine."  Wooden barrels were invented in Gaul and were not used in the East in New Testament times. Wine and other liquids were stored in skins.

18. In Chapter 97 Mohammed is clearly called the Messiah. The Qur'an, as well as the Bible confers this title on Jesus. It is somehow strange to realize that in the introduction of the Gospel of Barnabas Jesus is called Christ and in Chapters 42 and 82 "Barnabas" denies that Jesus is the Messiah. Only a theologically very ignorant person could have made such statements, because "Christos" is the Greek word for the Hebrew "Messiah".

19. In "the true book of Moses ... (it) is written that Ishmael is the father of Messiah, and Isaac the father of the messenger of the Messiah" (Chapter 191).

20. In Chapter 222, the last chapter of the Gospel of Barnabas, we read: "After Jesus had departed (after having been raised from his hiding place through the window of the house in the Garden of Gethsemane) the disciples scattered through the different parts of Israel and of the world, and the truth, hated of Satan, was persecuted, as it always is, by falsehood. For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached and yet preach that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived."

The Gospel of Barnabas herewith endeavours to correct preceding Gospels and Paul. We wish to ask the question when and how was the writer aware that the disciples had scattered throughout the different parts of the world? This question is left open, but easily answered by us, for we believe that it is yet another anachronism.

21. The Italian poet Dante lived about the time of the composition of the Gospel of Barnabas (1265-1321) and it is interesting to notice a number of quotations from Dante's works in the Gospel of Barnabas There are many and they can hardly be regarded as coincidences. The Gospel of Barnabas quotes Jesus as saying to Peter: "Know ye therefore, that hell is one, yet hath seven centres one below another. Hence, even as sin is of seven kinds, for as seven gates of hell has Satan generated it: So are seven punishments therein." (Chapter 135a).

This is exactly what Dan te says in Cantos V, VI, etc. of his "Inferno". Again "Barnabas" says that God, having created the human senses, condemned them "to hell and to intolerable snow and ice" (Chapter 106, which corresponds with Cantos XXVIII and III of the "Inferno"). The description of human sins and their returning at the end like a river to Satan, who is their source, is another indirect quotation from Dante's description of the rivers of hell. Similarly, the passages about the believers going to hell, not to be tortured, but to see the unbelievers in their torments, recalls to mind Dante's picture of the same. The differentiation between degrees of glory, and the absence of all feuds and jealousies in heaven, are taken entirely from Dante's "Paradise", Canto III. But still stronger evidence that "Barnabas" quotes directly or indirectly from Dante is his description of the "Geography of Heaven". There "Barnabas" agrees with Dante and contradicts even the Qur'an itself. The Qur'an (Sura 2:29) says th at the heavens are seven in number, while "Barnabas" gives the number as nine (Chapter 178a) (Gairdner, pages 19-21).

These few indications are sufficient evidence that the writer of the Gospel of Barnabas must have been acquainted with the writings of Dante and consequently must have I lived after Dante, or else been a contemporary of his.

22. In Chapter 145 of the Gospel of Barnabas Pharisees date back as far as the time of Elijah and there were supposed to have been 17,000. In fact, history first knows about Pharisees seven centuries later, in the period between 135-104 B.C.

23. In Chapter 82 mention is made of the "Years of the Jubilee, which now cometh every 100 years." The Year of Jubilee, according to the Old Testament, was every 50th year (after seven times seven years). The origin of this faulty information is as follows: In the year A.D. 1300 Pope Boniface the VIII instituted the Jubilee as a centenary event. Owing to its financial success, however , Pope Clement VI reversed Boniface's decision and celebrated the next Jubilee in 1350. This was thus the only time that the Year of Jubilee was intended as a centenary occasion - it never was in practice. (Gairdner, page 19).

24. Eve is said to have eaten an "apple" in Paradise (Chapters 40 and 41). We are well aware that Eve ate an unspecified fruit, but the belief that this was an apple dates from a very much later date.

25. Another proof of the Gospel of Barnabas being Medieval in origin, is that we have a report (Chapter 99) of a duel between two rival lovers. This type of chivalry was a creation of Medieval society (Gairdner, page 24).

26. In Chapter 80 of the Gospel of Barnabas we find a story about Daniel, which has it that he was taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar while he was yet two years old. This statement, it will be observed, is incompatible with what may be inferred from the Bible narrative. According to the latter, it was in the second year of his reign that Nebuchadnezzar had his famous dream, which Daniel interpreted.

"Then the King gave Daniel high honours and many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief prefect over the all-wise men of Babylon." (Daniel 2:48).

Now if we suppose that Nebuchadnezzar captured Daniel in the first year of his reign (the earliest possible date, which could be assigned to Daniel's captivity) and that, according to "Barnabas", Daniel was then two years old, it would follow then that in the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, Daniel was only three years old (Gairdner, page 26). Daniel was in fact born in 621 B.C. and the captivity began in 605 B.C., so he was 16 years old when taken prisoner.

27. We read that Ishmael was offered on the altar by Abraham (Chapter 44). This is clearly an Islamic concept.

28. God is said to be the God of Abraham, ISHMAEL and Isaac in Chapter 212. It should read, according to the O.T. the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

29. We find it highly suspicious and wrong to read that the Torah was written by an Ismaelite (Chapter 192).

30. Most suspicious of course, is any mentioning of the name of Mohammed. (In Chapters 44, 54, 112, 97 and 163, etc.) It is particularly suspicious, since all the other evidence points to the fact that the whole of the G.o.B is a Medieval forgery. But other Islamic thought is also reflected in the Gospel of Barnabas

31. In Chapter 39 Adam sees bright writing and the content is none other than the Kalimah. There is only one God" and "Mohammed is the Messenger of God."

32. Muslims who accept the Gospel of Barnabas ought to consider the fact that in Chapter 115 it very strongly endorses monogamy.

33. Likewise we refer to Chapter 38, in which the Islamic principle of abrogation is rejected.

Peace



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:32am

George's Answer:  The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees. 

George's statement: Crosses were made out of trees, AbRah2006.  The crosses were made out of wood.  Wood comes from trees.  Get it?

 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

My answer for George:

I quote your own word ' The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees. '.....How can you claim that the tree is the cross when the cross is made of wood?

 

Oh you mean that a burger is a cow for the burger is made out of beef. And beef comes from cow. Why don't you call a cow a burger whenever you meet it? Funny , isn't it?

 

Oh you mean that a pencil is a tree for for the pencil is made of wood and wood comes from trees....How clever are you to say that the cross is the tree ...and the pencil is a tree too so the cross is a pencil according to your logic? lol.......Your joke is entertaining me hahahaahah!...Can you put a tree in your pocket?

 

What about the iron crosses? Are they the trees too?

We can call apple a tree...Can we call a cross a tree? Can you call milk a cow for the milk comes from a cow? YOU CAN'T !

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:33am

Originally posted by AbRah2006

2) We Muslims believe that the original teachings of Jesus are the truth of God but his teachings were corrupted into a lie by the Christians.

Response:  The Qur'an does not say that.

Originally posted by AbRah2006

]

For example: (1) Christ taught non-resistance


          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15 

Response:

Matthew 5: 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Matthew 26: 52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Luke 22:36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

John 2:15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables.

There are two possible interpretations of Luke 22:36.  This first one is:

 

Luke 22:36, "He said to them, 'but now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a Fsword, sell your cloak and buy one."

 

Verse 36 put into context:  Luke 22:35-38: Then Jesus asked [his disciples], “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment (His death on the cross).” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied. (NIV)

 

First some background.  Some Christians believe that we are to be pacifists to the extent of it being unlawful for a Christian to defend himself and "turn the other cheek" in all circumstances.  The pacifists suggest that Jesus was only speaking figuratively here.  However, there are those who believe that Jesus was advocating that self-defense is lawful. 

 

Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus revealed to His disciples the future hostility they would face and encouraged them to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword.  Here the "sword" (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler's equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals.  A plain reading of the passage can indicate that Jesus approved of self-defense.

 

Self-defense may actually result in one of the greatest examples of human love. Christ Himself said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14).  When protecting one's family or neighbor, a Christian is unselfishly risking his or her life for the sake of others. 

To go a step further, when Jesus instructed us to love our neighbors He was really asking us to risk our lives for others.  To permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong.  To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil.  To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable.  In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission.  Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally. 

Jesus prescribed the sword here because he was preparing his disciples for his departure (His death).  During his earthly ministry, the disciples were protected by an extraordinary providence.  This, however, was about to change.

 

In the “High Priestly Prayer,” Jesus prayed, “While I was with them I protected them and kept them safe by the Name you gave me” (John 17:12). There are numerous instances of the protection of this extraordinary providence in the Gospels.  In Luke 8:22-25, for example, we read the account of Jesus and his disciples being in a boat when a squall came upon them.  The text explicitly tells us, “they were in great danger” (8:23).  And yet, Jesus rebukes them for exhibiting “little faith.”

 

The reason for his rebuke is that Jesus was not going to die by drowning.  Nor was he was going to die at the hands of robbers.  He was going to die on the cross.  And so, as long as he was with them, no harm could possibly come to them. But now he was going away, and with him the protection of an extraordinary providence.  The disciples must now rely on the ordinary means of God’s protection.  And so he says, “But now . . .  if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

 

From Jesus’ teachings we know that He did NOT mean He would be wanting them to defend Him, or to use force to get people to submit to His message nor was Jesus wanting His followers to live by the sword - to dominate and control people’s lives by force, or to have an armed uprising. Jesus never used those tactics Himself, and He wouldn’t want His followers to either.

 

By telling His followers to be equipped with a sword Jesus was warning them to expect fierce opposition and hardship in their service for Him. "In fact," the Bible says, "everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."  (2nd Timothy 3:12)

 

Even as Jesus spoke with His disciples the religious leaders were waiting their opportunity to destroy Jesus. They knew that if the people were to repent - to turn from them to Jesus - and to believe in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins, (Acts 20:21; 26:20; 5:31) then their words and actions would be known to be empty and powerless! For this reason all those who have preached the true message of Jesus down through the ages have been despised and rejected and bitterly opposed by religious leaders.

 

The vitally important point made here is that Christ’s Kingdom is something that cannot be promulgated or enforced by the sword.  His Kingdom is not of this world (Jn. 18:36).  The weapons used to advance his Kingdom must not be the weapons of the world (2 Cor. 10:4-5).  The Kingdom that Jesus was establishing would be advanced through the cross, not by the wielding of the sword.  Thus, the weapons of the world must never be taken up by Christians to advance the cause of the Christ.  The sword must be used for defensive purpos es only. Jesus explicitly proscribed (proscribe means to condemn or forbid as harmful or unlawful) the sword as a way of advancing his Kingdom.

 

The Kingdom that Jesus established will one day dominate and do away with all others (Dan. 2:31-45, 1 Cor. 15:24-25).  Because the Prince of Peace has come, the day will eventually come when we will beat our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks.  But that day is not now.  “Now,” Jesus says, “If you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

 

The second one is: 

The disciples take Jesus' remarks literally and incorrectly. They note that they have two swords, but Jesus cuts off the discussion. Something is not right, but it is too late to discuss it. As the arrest will show, they have misunderstood. They draw swords then and one disciple cuts the ear of one of those who came to take Jesus away before His crucifixion, but Jesus said "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword." He is not telling them to buy swords to wield in physical battle. They will have to provide for themselves and fend for themselves, but not through the shedding of blood. They are being drawn into a great cosmic struggle, and they must fight with spiritual swords and resources. The purchase of swords serves only to picture this coming battle. This fight requires special weapons (Eph 6:10-18). 

John 2:13-17, Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”

What does Jesus driving out the people who were making the Temple a house of merchandise have to do with non-resistance?  You are mixing apples and oranges.  Did you actually read this scriptures?

Peace


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:37am

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(2)Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1 

Response:

Luke 12: 4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Comment:  You have taken this verse out of context.  Jesus is telling them that they should have no fear if someone kills their body; and explaining that they should fear "Him" who has the power to cast them into hell—God.  I think you would agree with this.

John 7:  1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him. 2 Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. 3 His brothers therefore said to Him, “Depart from here and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may see the works that You are doing. 4 For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For even His brothers did not believe in Him.  6 Then Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil. 8 You go up to this feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, for My time has n ot yet fully come.” 9 When He had said these things to them, He

Comment:  You need to use some common sense here.  Jesus mission was not completed.  The Jews sought to kill him.  What do you think?  That Jesus should have marched up to the Jews and said, "Here I am, kill me now" when he hadn't completed his mission?  You could look at this like someone who has two roads in which to choose to get to a certain destination—one that is dark and notorious for robberies and murders—and one that is well-lit and protected, a safe road.  What kind of a person would choose the more dangerous road opposed to the safer one?

Peace



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:38am
Originally posted by AbRah2006

George's statement:

Crosses were made out of trees, AbRah2006.  The crosses were made out of wood.  Wood comes from trees.  Get it?

 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

My answer for George:

Oh you mean that a burger is a cow for the burger is made out of beef. And beef comes from cow. Why don't you call a cow a burger whenever you meet it? Funny , isn't it?

 

Oh you mean that a pencil is a tree for for the pencil is made of wood and wood comes from trees....How clever are you to say that the cross is the tree ...and the pencil is a tree too so the cross is a pencil according to your logic? lol.......Your joke is entertaining me hahahaahah!

 

What about the iron crosses? Are they the tree too?

AbRah,

You are making yourself look foolish in front of the Christians and your fellow Muslims.

Peace

 



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:50am

I am a mature woman.  It seems to me, after following AbRAH's childish words, that he/she is very young and immature.  I feel it would be prudent to simply ignore these statements.  Maybe with time and God's help, AbRAH will one day grow up.

God's Peace,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:03am
George's statement:

Aren't you ashamed of yourself for not understanding English?  Maybe it is not your first language and it is to be expected.

 

I gave you a lot of tools (websites) in which to find the answers to your own questions.  Why don't you use them, find the answers, and then come back with anything that is confusing you?  I will try to help you out of your confusion as best that I can.

 

George's statement: Both Gospel writers are correct.  The difficulty is answered when you realize that each Gospel writer used a different time system.  John follows the Roman time system while Mark follows the Jewish time system.

According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight.  The Jewish 24 hour period began in the evening at 6PM and the morning of that day began at 6AM.  Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9AM.  John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour.  This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers.  This fits with John's other references to time.  For example, he speaks about Jesus being weary from His journey from His trip from Judea to Samaria at the "sixth hour" and asking fo r water from the woman at the well.  Considering the length of his trip, his weariness, and the normal evening time when people come to the well to drink and to water their animals, this fits better with 6PM, which is "the sixth hour" of the night by Roman time reckoning.  The same is true of John's reference to the tenth hour in John 1:39, which would be 10AM, a more likely time to be out preaching than 4AM.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

 

Hey George .....What kind of English language do you speak? I think you speak a twisted version of English......Don't you understand understand what I mean? I mean your Gospels are corrupt for making contradictory statements about 'the crucifixion of Jesus'. Therefore the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie for the contradictions are the product of the corruption of the Bible!

 

Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/hour.html - - Was Jesus crucified the day before or the day after the Passover meal?  

According to John Jesus was crucified on the day before the Passover meal : http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/19.html#14 - And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We hav e no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.

According to Mathew Jesus was crucified on the day after the Passover meal: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/14.html#12 - http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/15.html#25 - The Gospels contradict themselves that proves that the Gospels are not  the reliable books so the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie. Can you win a case by giving contradictory statements to support your case in the court? Contradictions happen when the event is a fiction!

If the crucifixion of Jesus is true how come the Gospels contradict one another? If the witnesses were honest and trustworthy, why did they give contradictory statements? If the writers of the Gospels were honest and trustworthy why did they make contradictory statements?

Do you still believe that the NT is the Word of God eventhough it contain so many errors and contradiction? Please remember that Allah(God) will not contradict Himself for He is the All Wise so the NT and OT are not the Word of God for they are corrupted by their keepers!

Why do you George lie to support your false claim that Jesus was crucified?  Aren't you ashamed of yourself? 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:11am

oh dear abrah. what did i tell you? - one lie always leads to another.  how true in your case, even.  you are now saying i have not refuted you.  but i have, on three points. 1.  i have explained there are two greek words translated as "tree" in the new testament.  you better reread what i put. 2.  i utterly exposed your folly in the matter of deuteronomy 31: 25-29, which does not say the bible is corrupted.  3.  i exposed your argument with regard to the "three days and nights" and gave an example from the Holy Scriptures to back up what i said

but let us consider another of your lies.  you said this:

13.  Baptism commanded
          Matt 28:19
         Baptism not commanded
          1 Cor 1:17,14

this is another lie, unfortunately.  baptism is commanded for every believer.  in 1 corinthians 1, paul is saying he was not sent to baptise, but he did baptise - v. 14, 16.  it was not his primary mission, others did most of the baptising, with respect to pauls converts.  elswhere paul writes of the necessity of baptism, especially in romans 6: 3,4 and colossians 2: 12

your statement that 1 cor1: 14, 17 means that baptism is not commanded is a lie



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:15am

AbRah, you really are quite thick you know.  George's answer is as plain as day and you haven't really been able to comprehend it.  Can you understand this:  The Romans and Hebrews reckoned days and hours differently.  The Gospels reflect this.  For instance, for a Jew, the new day starts at sundown, while for a Roman it began at sunrise.  It is the same with the calculation of time and hours.

Why don't you do a little study before copying this junk off of anti-Christian websites produced by lowclass dumbies that know nothing of history or Jewish culture.

 



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:32am

George's Comment:  You need to use some common sense here.  Jesus mission was not completed.  The Jews sought to kill him.  What do you think?  That Jesus should have marched up to the Jews and said, "Here I am, kill me now" when he hadn't completed his mission?  You could look at this like someone who has two roads in which to choose to get to a certain destination—one that is dark and notorious for robberies and murders—and one that is well-lit and protected, a safe road.  What kind of a person would choose the more dangerous road opposed to the safer one?

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -----------

My response to George's Comment:

Yeah you are right for asking this question to me: "What kind of a person would choose the more dangerous road opposed to the safer one?"

If anyone believes the so-called Jesus' prediction in http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#top - Matt 26:2 , then Jesus must have known of his upcoming crucifixion. As we all know that Christians claim that Jesus is God. If Jesus equals a god, then he could not have sacrificed his life, simply because an infinite god cannot die. If Jesus died as just a man, then he committed what we would today call suicide.

Yeah Jesus had avoided the dangerous crucifixion when Allah the All Mighty and All Merciful God saved him by bringing him unto Him!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:33am

Originally posted by AbRah2006


(3)Public prayer sanctioned
          1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
         Public prayer disapproved
          Matt 6:5,6 

Response:

Look at what Jesus said in context:


Matthew 5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

      Our Father in heaven,
      Hallowed be Your name.
       10 Your kingdom come.
      Your will be done
      On earth as it is in heaven.
       11 Give us this day our daily bread.
       12 And forgive us our debts,
      As we forgive our debtors.
       13 And do not lead us into temptation,
      But deliver us from the evil one.
      For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

 

What Jesus is pointing out is that many people pray in the open "to be seen by men" so that men will praise them.  This is the wrong approach.  It is like saying, "Look at me I am so pious."  Their reward is that they were seen by men nothing more.  God does not reward hypocrisy, but he does punish it.  Prayer is supposed to be worship rendered to God, never displays of self-righteousness to gain the admiration of others.  I sure Muslims would agree with this.

 

There was nothing wrong with the praying you cited in the OT.

 

Do Muslims pray as Jesus taught?  "Our Father in heaven…"

 

Peace.



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:36am

George's Answer:  The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees. 

George's statement: Crosses were made out of trees, AbRah2006.  The crosses were made out of wood.  Wood comes from trees.  Get it?

 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

My answer for George:

I quote your own word ' The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees. '.....How can you claim that the tree is the cross when the cross is made of wood?

 

Oh you mean that a burger is a cow for the burger is made out of beef. And beef comes from cow. Why don't you call a cow a burger whenever you meet it? Funny , isn't it?

 

Oh you mean that a pencil is a tree for for the pencil is made of wood and wood comes from trees....How clever are you to say that the cross is the tree ...and the pencil is a tree too so the cross is a pencil according to your logic? lol.......Your joke is entertaining me hahahaahah!...Can you put a tree in your pocket?

 

What about the iron crosses? Are they the trees too?

We can call an apple tree!...Can we call a cross a tree? Can you call milk a cow for the milk comes from a cow? YOU CAN'T !



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Patty

I am a mature woman.  It seems to me, after following AbRAH's childish words, that he/she is very young and immature.  I feel it would be prudent to simply ignore these statements.  Maybe with time and God's help, AbRAH will one day grow up.

God's Peace,

Patty

Yes, Patty, we must pray for him.  If he is as young as he sounds then he may have time to grow in his knowledge.  Notice I said "may."  I said that because we never now when the end will come; some of us may have time and other won't.

Blessings,

George



Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:40am
ive just noticed, not only does abrah repeat word for word what he said previously, he also totally ignores what other people say (probably others have noticed this long before me!) - very difficult to talk to somone like this

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 9:53am
Originally posted by George

AbRah,

I want to thank you for this topic.  Even though I do not like your tone or your choice of words, you have given the Christians an opportunity to correct your allegations, mistranslations and misunderstandings.  You have also given the Muslims the opportunity to see our explanations and see how mistaken you are.  Thanks.

God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways.

Peace

 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

Yeah God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways. And I have exposed the contradictory statements of the OT and NT and you George are twisting your own words to condone the contradictions of the Bible...You inteprete the contradictory statements according to your own liking to condone the corruption and contradiction of the Bible! You even against the teachings of the Bible by making your own interpretation of the contradictory statements of the OT and NT so that you can win the debate .....It seems to me that you are a desperate preacher who will lie and cheat and twist so that you will win the debate! Yeah God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways. I have met so many Christian preachers like you and I am not surprised to see how you behave!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 10:16am

AbRah,

The Bible is not one continuous revelation by the hand of one prophet such as the Quran.  The Quran has a revelation spanning 23 years and changes with each new revelation.  The Bible was written by several hands over 1000s of years.  There are going to be variations in the texts from the perspectives of the authors.  Not all the authors were Prophets.  Much like the police take multiple statements at a crime scene.  Not every one is going to be exactly alike.  Some of the books in the bible were penned 150 years after the even and are the written form of oral traditions and written accounts being compiled.  Others from the old testament are by the hands of completely different men trying to interpret dreams and visions. (Isaiah comes to mind)

You really haven't "proven" anything since Christians do not take the Bible as the "literal" word of God in the same way that Muslims consider the Quran the "literal" word of God.  Most of the bible is in the form of 3 person perspective where the Quran is almost entirely dialogue from God to Mohammed.  Its doesn't prove the Bible False, its just a completely different format.



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Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 10:17am

Originally posted by fredifreeloader

abrah - you are so ignorant.  there are two greek words translated as "tree" in the new testament - 1.  dendron (a living, growing tree)  2. xulon (wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood) - the second word is used to refer to the cross of our glorious Lord

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

My answer: It seems to me that you are the ignorant....Let us consider the following statements of the NT.

a) Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

(b)Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

(c)Matthew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Matthew27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

The statements are very clear that the writers of Acts used the word 'TREE' while the writers of the Gospels wrote 'the cross'...The tree and the cross are different things....Why did the writers make contradictory statements if they were honest and trustworthy? Why did the witnesses of the crucifixion who you think were honest and trustworthy give contradictory statements? The only answer is that they were corrupt for making contradictory statements thus the NT is corrupt as result of their misdeeds! If they really witnessed the so-called crucifixion, they would give the same statements about the so-called crucifixion. Therefore the NT is unreliable thus the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 10:28am

abrah wrote:

"The statements are very clear that the writers of Acts used the word 'TREE' while the writers of the Gospels wrote 'the cross'...The tree and the cross are different things....Why did the writers make contradictory statements if they were honest and trustworthy?"

a thing may be called by different names.  there is nothing new in this.  even the quran is called something else - al-furqan.  the tree and the cross are the same thing



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 10:45am

Angela's statement: Its doesn't prove the Bible False, its just a completely different format.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------

The ealiest Gospel was written about 70 years after Jesus was gone so Jesus was not there to correct the contradictions of the NT. For exampe:

(1) Can one pray in public?  (Matthew 6:5-6) Jesus condemned public prayer.  (1 Timothy 2:8)  Paul encouraged public prayer.

(2) In 1 Corinthians 1:17 ("For Christ sent me [Paul] not to baptize but to preach the gospel") Paul said Jesus was wrong when he said in Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them…"  Clearly one of these people is wrong, either way, it’s a contradiction.

(3) How many blind men besought Jesus?  Matthew 20:30 Two blind men.  Luke 18:35-38 Only one blind man.

(4)Who approached Jesus?  (Matthew 8:5-7)  The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant.  (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7)  The Centurion did not approach Jesus.  He sent friends and elders of the Jews.

(5)What was the nationality of the woman who besought Jesus?  Matthew 15:22  "And behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, Have mercy on me, 0 Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil."  Mark 7:26 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation, and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter."

Are those statements the words of Jesus? Jesus is a great prophet of Allah and Jesus will not contradict his own words so who did corrupt his teachings into a lie?

On the contrary, the scribers of the prophet Muhammad wrote the verses of Quran as soon as the Prophet Muhammad received the messages from God so there will be no corruption of the Quran because the recitators of Quran ensure that Quran will not be corrupted!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur’an 15:9]. The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants: 'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow' (Quran  al Baqarah 2:38).



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 10:58am
Originally posted by fredifreeloader

abrah wrote:

"The statements are very clear that the writers of Acts used the word 'TREE' while the writers of the Gospels wrote 'the cross'...The tree and the cross are different things....Why did the writers make contradictory statements if they were honest and trustworthy?"

a thing may be called by different names.  there is nothing new in this.  even the quran is called something else - al-furqan.  the tree and the cross are the same thing

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

My answer:  A man may have two or more names but he is the same man . Are the tree and the cross the same thing? Can you plant a cross so that it will grow up like a tree? Can the cross produce flowers and bear fruits etc? Does the cross has leaves, branches, shoots? Can the cross perform the phtosynthesis? Can the cross perform respiration and oxidation? Can a cross absorb carbon dioxide (a greenhouse gas), and in turn, replenish the atmosphere with oxygen for us to breathe. What is the definition of tree?.........Hey fredifreeloader  you are a joker!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:07am

Again, you are comparing Apples and Oranges.  Of course there can be mistakes in such things like "Was the Woman Greek or Caananite?" when there are so many years separating the events.  But does that mean the event didn't happen???  No of course not.  It just means that there are differences of opinion on where the woman was from.  It doesn't change the events or message, just the details. 

Similar excuses could be used elsewhere.  Such as, did the Prophet forbid ahadiths from being recorded?  Some say yes, other's say no. 

As for your challenges.....

Matthew 6

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

<>document.write(drawVerse(6,73585)); 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

1 Timothy 2

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

These verses are not contradictory.  They are talking about Prayers to God for the personal relationship between us.  The public prayer that Jesus was denouncing was those that stand up and pray just to be seen.  They are not really praying to God, they just want everyone to see how wonderful they are and their prayers are empty.



 



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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:17am
Originally posted by AbRah2006

Originally posted by George

AbRah,

I want to thank you for this topic.  Even though I do not like your tone or your choice of words, you have given the Christians an opportunity to correct your allegations, mistranslations and misunderstandings.  You have also given the Muslims the opportunity to see our explanations and see how mistaken you are.  Thanks.

God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways.

Peace

 

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Yeah God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways. And I have exposed the contradictory statements of the OT and NT and you George are twisting your own words to condone the contradictions of the Bible...You inteprete the contradictory statements according to your own liking to condone the corruption and contradiction of the Bible! You even against the teachings of the Bible by making your own interpretation of the contradictory statements of the OT and NT so that you can win the debate .....It seems to me that you are a desperate preacher who will lie and cheat and twist so that you will win the debate! Yeah God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways. I have met so many Christian preachers like you and I am not surprised to see how you behave!

Rah,

You should be ashamed of yourself.  You made allegations and you got the answers.  Nobody can help it if you don't understand what you are reading.  I would bet money that you haven't read the Bible; in fact, I would bet money that you are copying and pasting from Osama Abdullah's website.  If so, then no wonder you are so confused.  He is absolutely the worst person you should be reading.

Originally posted by Rah

It seems to me that you are a desperate preacher who will lie and cheat and twist so that you will win the debate!

You have attacked me personally.  I do not lie nor do I cheat nor do I twist. Please do not do that.  I am happy to see that you admit that I and the rest of the Christians are winning the debate.  It takes a big man to admit that.

Originally posted by Rah

Yeah God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways. I have met so many Christian preachers like you and I am not surprised to see how you behave!

God loves me.  I am in God's hands and he will never let me go.  I am a child of God and I am his own and he loves me so much that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I think God would be proud of my behavior as it is He would helps me answer your allegations against his Holy Bible.

Peace



Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:28am

 Can you plant a cross so that it will grow up like a tree? Can the cross produce flowers and bear fruits etc? Does the cross has leaves, branches, shoots? Can the cross perform the phtosynthesis? Can the cross perform respiration and oxidation? Can a cross absorb carbon dioxide (a greenhouse gas), and in turn, replenish the atmosphere with oxygen for us to breathe. 

  can you read?  then i suggest you read what i wrote



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:37am

George's statement:

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(2)Christ was to be three days and three nights in the   grave Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9 

Answer:  Matt 12:40, For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mark 15: 25 Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.

Mark 15: 42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. 45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. 46 Then he bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.

Mark 16: 9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons.

You are going to have to explain your problem here because I don't understand what you are trying to say.

 

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My answer: I am trying to say that the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie because the writers of the Gospel of Mark and Matthew contradict one another:

(1) Christ was to be three days and three nights in the   grave Matt 12:40
(2) Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9 

If the writers and the so-called witnesses of the crucifixion really witnessed the so-called the crucifixion of Jesus, why did they make the contradictory statements? It seems to me that the crucifixion of Jesus did not happen due to the contradiction! If they really witnessed the crucifixion they should write the same thing!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 11:48am

Here are some articles from more ancient sources.  (I have a great interest in them, because they were written so close to the time of Jesus.)  This is what a few of them say regarding the Crucifixion:

Josephus, Jewish historian (AD 37-100) wrote of Jesus:

"About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him (for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about Him.) The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this day." (Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63 )

The Jewish Talmud (Centuries of Jewish oral tradition committed to
writing between AD 200 and AD 500), In the Babylonian Talmud in tractate Sanhedrin (43A), there is an interesting reference to Jesus.

On the eve of Passover they **hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went
before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going to be stoned
in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let
everyone knowing aught in his defense come and plead for him. But they found
naught in his defense and hanged him on the eve of Passover.

** Before anyone says anything about "hanged", I have already researched it, and by "hanged" they meant literally "hanged on the cross" -- Patty

Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian, wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time 52 AD.  His writings are only found as citations by others. Thallus was quoted by Julius Africanus who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun:

On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.

The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon.  It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. So, the event had to be a supernatural event.

Lucian of Samosta, Greek satirist, second century AD, alludes to Christ:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the comtempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.

Lucian also reported that the Christians had 'sacred writings' which were frequently read. When something affected them, "they spare no trouble, no expense."

Tacitus, a Roman historian, in his Annals, c. AD 115, describes the Roman Emperor Nero's actions after the great fire of Rome, c. AD 64:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

” Mischievous Superstition”.
Exitiabilis is the latin word for mischievous. It means destructive, fatal, deadly. So it would seem that what tacitus actually said was it was “a destructive or fatal or deadly superstition”. He was calling Christianity evil. So, it is obvious that he was not a Christian, thus he would not be sharing about the death of Jesus to support the fact that there was a historical Jesus that was killed by Pontius Pilate. Note that Tacitus is not referring to the death of the Jesus as supersititon but the practice of Jesus’ followers.

The conclusion here is, imo, that historians and others that were not Christians, acknowledge the death and/or crucifixion of Jesus. Most Jews even to this day don't doubt that Jesus died on a cross. They just don't recognize Him as the Messiah and that He rose from the dead.

God's Peace,

Patty


 



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 12:02pm
 

Was Jesus hung on a tree?

The New Testament uses the word tree five times to refer to Christ's crucifixion on a cross. The references are found in Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29, Galatians 3:13 and 1 Peter 2:24. Most of the time, the noun stauros (stake) and the verb stauroo (crucify) are used in connection with Jesus Christ's death. These two words appear 74 times in the New Testament.

One of the five appearances of tree occurs in the book of Galatians. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us," wrote Paul, "for it is written: `Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree"' (Galatians 3:13). In this case, Paul was quoting a phrase found in Deuteronomy 21:23.

Paul was referring to the Torah's prescribed form of execution by stoning for certain offenses, such as blasphemy and idolatry. After being stoned to death, the person's body was hung on a tree to show the individual was under God's curse. To the Jews, hanging on a tree had become a metaphor for an apostate, a blasphemer or a person deemed under God's curse. That's exactly how the Jews viewed Jesus (John 5:18; 10:33; Matthew 26:63-65).

Their attitude would explain why Peter and Paul, on occasion, used the Greek word for "tree" (xylon) to describe Jesus' execution, even though he was crucified on a cross. Three times in the book of Acts the word tree is used to refer to Jesus' crucifixion. In these cases, it appears in a Jewish context as well.

Also, from biology online:

Definition of xylon -- A genus of prickly shrubs or small trees

It was quite common for the cross, during the time of Jesus, to be referred to as the "tree".

God's peace,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 12:04pm

George said:

"I think God would be proud of my behavior as it is He would helps me answer your allegations against his Holy Bible."

I second that, George.  You are a gentleman and a wonderful example of a true Christian.

Peace be with you, George.

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 12:12pm

George's statements:

Rah,

You should be ashamed of yourself.  You made allegations and you got the answers.  Nobody can help it if you don't understand what you are reading.  I would bet money that you haven't read the Bible; in fact, I would bet money that you are copying and pasting from Osama Abdullah's website.  If so, then no wonder you are so confused.  He is absolutely the worst person you should be reading.

Originally posted by Rah

It seems to me that you are a desperate preacher who will lie and cheat and twist so that you will win the debate!

You have attacked me personally.  I do not lie nor do I cheat nor do I twist. Please do not do that.  I am happy to see that you admit that I and the rest of the Christians are winning the debate.  It takes a big man to admit that.

Originally posted by Rah

Yeah God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways. I have met so many Christian preachers like you and I am not surprised to see how you behave!

God loves me.  I am in God's hands and he will never let me go.  I am a child of God and I am his own and he loves me so much that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I think God would be proud of my behavior as it is He would helps me answer your allegations against his Holy Bible.

 

___________________________________________________________

My answer to refute George's lies:

(1)I am NOT ashamed of myself for exposing the contradictions of the Bible.....In fact I will to expose more errors and contradictions of the Bible to see how you cheat, lie and twist to condone the corruption of the OT and NT

(2) You are so wicked for slandering Osama Abdullah who have exposed the corruption of the Bible and how you Christians corrupt your own Bible into a lie! Ossama Abdullah have so many proofs to prove that you George are a liar! Please visit http://www.answering-christianity - www.answering-christianity and see yourselves how the preachers like George corrupt the Bible into a lie.

(3) You have slandered me by accusing me of copying Ossama's points so you are the liar! I do my own research and I have the OT and NT as my reference!

(4) You are not sure of what you are saying to me when you use the word 'IF'....There is no IF, if you are sure of your statement...Let me quote your own words: "I would bet money that you haven't read the Bible; in fact, I would bet money that you are copying and pasting from Osama Abdullah's website.  If so, then no wonder you are so confused."

(5) I did not say that you won the debate so you are a liar! I said  that you were lying, cheating, and twisting so that you could win the debate! I never said that you won the debate! You will never win the debate by lying, cheating and twisting everything according to your own liking! You are beaten by your own lies!

(6) You are so immoral and corrupt for slandering Jesus, God and david by saying that Jesus is the only begotten son of God when the Bible says that David is the  begotten son of God ! God is recorded as saying to Prophet David, in Psalms 2:7, “I will tell the decree of the Lord: He said to me, ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you.’ ” 

To me it is just another contradiction of the Bible that was done by the keepers of the Bible...I am sure Allah the All Wise will never contradict His own Word! This contradiction proves that God has no sons for God is One and Only according to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad! After all there is none beside God!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 12:37pm
Patty's statement:

Was Jesus hung on a tree?

The New Testament uses the word tree five times to refer to Christ's crucifixion on a cross. The references are found in Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29, Galatians 3:13 and 1 Peter 2:24. Most of the time, the noun stauros (stake) and the verb stauroo (crucify) are used in connection with Jesus Christ's death. These two words appear 74 times in the New Testament.

One of the five appearances of tree occurs in the book of Galatians. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us," wrote Paul, "for it is written: `Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree"' (Galatians 3:13)

 

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My answer:

Why did the writers of NT used the word tree five times to refer to Christ's crucifixion on a cross? Why did the writers contradict one another by saying 'the Cross' and 'the Tree'? If they and their witnesses had really witnessed the so-called crucifixion of Jesus , they should made the same statement! They made contradictions! The contradictions and errors of the Bible are among the many reasons that cause the corruption of the Bible! 

Let say you and me watch a man hung on the tree so we will say that he is hung on the tree! If you say that he is hung on a cross and I say that that he is hung on lamp post, will the court accept your testimony and mine? You and me are not there so you and me make contradictory statements!

This contradiction has confirmed that Jesus was not crucified!  



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 12:44pm
The tree/cross issue is very easily resolved.  The cross bar to which the Lord Jesus' hands were fastened with nails was elevated to a deep notch in the tree.  The tree and cross bar intersected, forming a cross.  How hard is that to graps Abby?


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 1:02pm

AbRAH muttered:

"Why did the writers of NT used the word tree five times to refer to Christ's crucifixion on a cross?"

Custom, my son, custom.  In their time the cross was referred to as a "tree"...made of wood -- xylon in Greek.  It was the custom of the time.  Back in my grandfather's day, Levis or jeans were referred to as "dungarees"....same exact thing....different time.  Got it now?  Same thing, different time, different word used.  Think about it.

"This contradiction has confirmed that Jesus was not crucified!"

Don't give up your day job, and please don't tell me you're studying to be a historian or scientist.  Sorry, I couldn't help myself...you are so lost on this topic...and you are digging a deeper and deeper whole from which you must extricate yourself.

Think, AbRAH, THINK!

Peace and Blessings to You,

Patty

 



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 1:11pm

AbRAH asked:

"If you say that he is hung on a cross and I say that that he is hung on lamp post, will the court accept your testimony and mine?"

Absolutely not.  Because they are not the same thing.  You must know there are more than one word for the exact same thing.  For example, I might say "I'm reading the Bible."  Another person may say, "I am reading God's Word."  They are both reading the same book. It's just two different words for the exact same thing.  And that is how it is with "tree" and "cross" -- the exact same object, two different words used to describe it.  Historically, it was a tree made into a cross, as ALL historians agree....Christian, Protestant, Agnostic, and/or Atheist.  They all agree in the literary form the word "tree" in the context of the Crucifixion, means "cross". 

I truly hope this helps you understand. 

If I may be so bold as to ask, how old are you?  I'm just curious.  See, I believe I'm certainly old enough to be your grandmother, I'm 62.  (Look 30 though.)

Peace, AbRAH, peace!

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 1:27pm
George's statement:

God loves me.  I am in God's hands and he will never let me go.  I am a child of God and I am his own and he loves me so much that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I think God would be proud of my behavior as it is He would helps me answer your allegations against his Holy Bible.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

My response to refute George:

Christians like George claim that what is unique in the case of Jesus, is that he is the only begotten Son of God , while the others are merely “sons of God”. However, God is recorded as saying to Prophet David, in Psalms 2:7, “I will tell the decree of the Lord: He said to me, ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you.’ ” .....What does this contradiction mean? It means that that Christians like George, the OT and NT are the liars for slandering Jesus, David and God! The OT and NT are corrupt and immoral!

It should also be noted that nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus actually call himself “Son of God”.  Instead, he is recorded to have repeatedly called himself “Son of man” (e.g. Luke 9:22) innumerable times. And in Luke 4:41, he actually rejected being called “Son of God”: “And demons also came out of many, crying, ‘You are the Son of God!’   But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.

In the New Testament Book of Acts, there are several outlines of speeches of the early disciples of Jesus, speeches which date from the year 33 CE, almost forty years before the Four Gospels were written.  In one of these discourses, Jesus is referred to specifically as andra apo tou theou: “a man from God.” (Acts 2:22).  Not once do these early confessions of faith use the expression wios tou theou: “Son of God”, but they do speak several times of Jesus as God’s servant and prophet (Acts 3:13, 22, 23, 26). 

Jesus is not the son of God for Jesus is the son of Mary. That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing. He but says to it "Be". and it is. (Quran 19:34-5).

The Bible itself calls Jesus the son of man so many times throughout the Bible to prove that Jesus is a human being.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

George's statement:

God loves me.  I am in God's hands and he will never let me go.  I am a child of God and I am his own and he loves me so much that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

My response to George's wild claim:

How do you know that God loves you when you have slandered him by saying that He has a begotten son and you claim falsely that you are His child? Aren't you ashamed of yourself for claiming that you are His child when you sin everyday? God is sinless but you are sinful so you cannot be the child of God!

According to  Jesus, Moses and Muhammad ,  God is One and Only  and God says that there is none like Him and there is none beside Him so God has no sons and the Trinity is a false doctrine that says God is One in Three.

Moses said "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4) ...Moses doesn't say that God is One in Three!

Jesus said "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29).

And the prophet Muhammad said "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

Moses, Jesus and Muhammad did not say that God was One in Three!

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent"(Numbers 23:19 & 20)...God is not a man so human beings are neither His children nor His sons!

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me....None is like God so human beings are not the sons of God for God is not like human beings! 

Quran chapter 112, :“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”.

***Edited*** Abrah, this type of post will not be allowed. You will not be warned again. Failure to comply with the Guidelines will result in you being banned from this Forum.***



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 1:38pm

AbRah, Abby, etc.: you are quoting from the website George referred to - in fact, complete with underlinings.  Please, try to think for yourself if you aren't too far gone duck.

Why are you trying to use character assasination against George - he seems like a very nice chap to me, and quite knowledgeable as well.  Can't you engage in debate like a gentleman?



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 1:41pm

George,

Don't worry.  AbRah is resorting to personal insults and attacks because he's upset his arguements are getting picked apart so easily.  I know God loves all his children.  Every last one.  Even if he's disappointed in us when we sin.  Jesus taught love and kindness and respect, no matter what religion you claim as your own.  AbRah, has obviously missed these most important teachings.

And AbRah,

***Edited***

Judgement belongs to God only, you can't tell anyone what God will decide as their fate, for only he knows their truest intentions.

 



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Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 1:45pm

Patty's statement: And that is how it is with "tree" and "cross" -- the exact same object, two different words used to describe it.  Historically, it was a tree made into a cross

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

***Edited***

What is a tree?

Perennial woody plant with a single main http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/stem;_ylt=Ap56QvIFXnwOODmcTBEShFNTt8wF - stem (the trunk, or bole) from which branches and twigs extend to form a characteristic crown of foliage. In general, a tree differs from a shrub in that it has a single trunk, it reaches a greater height at maturity, it branches at a greater distance from the ground, and it increases in size by producing new branches and expanding in girth while a shrub often produces new shoots from ground level. Trees fall into three major divisions: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/angiospe;_ylt=AgbJp5hY_EfnOrVzEnCWk3xTt8wF - angiosperms , gymnosperms, and pteridophytes. Angiosperms are the most common type, where seeds carried in various fruits are the agents of reproduction. Trees and shrubs may be deciduous, with broad leaves that are shed at the end of the growing season, or evergreen (see http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/conifer;_ylt=AnCixq338pXxpTC0xmoMI.5Tt8wF - conifer ), with needlelike or scalelike leaves that are shed at intervals of between 2 and 10 years, thus maintaining green foliage at all seasons. Trees are identified both by the characteristic color and shape of the http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/leaf;_ylt=AqQKqSkKToneNaN4lzR3fG1Tt8wF - leaf and by their overall appearance, e.g., the degree and angle of branching, the shape of the crown, and the texture of the bark. Their age can be determined from a count of the http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/annualri;_ylt=ArM4ptMy1xFnmokPv3gDoyFTt8wF - annual rings , which represent the diameter growth of a tree each year. Besides their enormous importance in providing oxygen and moisture for the atmosphere and removing harmful carbon dioxide, trees are an important source of food, of http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/wood;_ylt=AjuoqSvoEetlg75P6R7h1stTt8wF - wood , and of numerous products (e.g., resins, rubber, quinine, turpentine, and cellulose for the manufacture of paper and various synthetic materials) derived from their wood, bark, leaves, and fruits.
 
What about the cross? The cross does not has the characteristics of a tree so the cross is not a tree!
 
Patty please go to your doctor to check your brain and mind! And please check your five senses too !


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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:02pm
Abrah, you really need to get back on your medication.  You are not debating, you are screaming and using provocative language.  Do you think that this in any way deminishes in people's eyes the faith you claim to defend?


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:10pm

Mishmish, Peacemaker, Khadija, Adji,  anyone

Please, please, please....this is not an interfaith discussion.  This man cannot be engaged without him returning with insults.  Please issue a warning, edit posts or close the topic????

1. We manage here an Islamic discussion board, thus all members are requested to maintain the decorum as per the standards of an Islamic cultural society. Any joke, or casual statement which the moderators find insensitive, may result in edition or deletion.

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11. Slanderous, defamatory, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, insulting, threatening and harassing comments are not tolerated. ALL comments by the person who adopts such a manner may be removed and the person will lose the privilege of participating in the forums in future. We will try to block attempts from the same person to sign up with a different name as well.

18. If any board member is found inadequate in observing any of the above rules, he/she may be prompted once, twice or thrice by the moderators before denying him/her all access to discussion boards in future.

19. Removing (Deleting) a User's ID and Posts: In general, we, the Moderators/Administrators, do not want to remove/delete user-id's. We will not remove a user id unless all posts under this user id have been removed and we receive a request from that user to then remove the id.  Administrators and moderators will not "help" to remove your posts, you are responsible for removing/deleting on your own. So please keep this in mind and post wisely, so you won't be haunted by your own posts later on. Administrators and moderators also will not "help" to remove your watch list subscriptions.



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Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:20pm

Angela is quite correct.  This Abrah fellow really needs some admonitions. Can't he debate without everyone differing in opinion from him being called a liar or threatened? He's done it to me, and to Patty as well.  For instance, in his latest diatribe he states:

***Edited***



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Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:22pm
***THIS TOPIC IS BEING CLOSED***

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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)



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