Print Page | Close Window

Unhealthy Censorship?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Comments & Complaints
Forum Discription: Comments & Complaints
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4398
Printed Date: 31 July 2014 at 12:49am


Topic: Unhealthy Censorship?
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Subject: Unhealthy Censorship?
Date Posted: 14 April 2006 at 1:20pm

One of the moderator (probably sis Khadijah) made the following remarks to which I don't fully agree with. She says "

***What part of my warning did you fail to understand?  Non-Muslims are not invited here to debate their faith.  They are invited here to learn about Islam.  It appears to me that your sole purpose here is to proselytize which is not permitted because this is a MUSLIM forum group.  We are here to learn about Islam.  We love our faith.  We do not beg others to come here; however, we warmly welcome them if they truly desire to learn about Islam."** "

Here I do like to draw her attention to a particular area of this forum, where healthy discussion among different faiths ( http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=10 - Islamic Interfaith Dialogue ) is discussed to learn. This learning is a both way traffic through which we all benefit. If we believe, as Muslims, that we are on the right path, then we must be able to demonstrate it as well beyond our "blind" faith with appropriate logic and using wisdom that Allah has given us. However, we are incapable of doing so, then such tactics of "shuting up others" would not help either. Here, ( http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=10 - Islamic Interfaith Dialogue ), I do see a lot of threads being un-necessarily locked out with out assigning any reason to it, that too, hardly the discussion has begun in them. Now for them I really couldn't understand as why such an action took place. Are we afraid of some thing?

Now coming to the specific word "proselytize " which our moderators levishly use to chop others, it must be realised that it is a relative term and must be used in very extrem situations. Untill or unless someone is behaving such as not to listen to logical arguments presented by others and whose only purpose is to declare his opinon without rationalist understanding of it, I don't think such a lable can be fixed so easily on this forum.

 




Replies:
Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 14 April 2006 at 3:40pm

Ahmad, how right you are.  I will soon be banned for eternity I suppose.  But, as an illustration, I posted a thread on the Interfaith Dialogue regarding the unity of God - nipped in the bud, and it was a pretty good discussion point.  You'll note that I said nothing negative about Muslims.

You know, Ahmad, Christians already believe that Muslims are rather anti-intellectual, and not willing to submit to honest critical thought.  This just confirms it more.  As a Christian, I'd be willing to answer any question you would throw at me.  I'm not going to shut you down for asking questions.

Look, Muslims put out fatwas on those who write or say things contrary to Islam.  Christians aren't into that.  We believe in freedom of thought and expression - something that censorship does not allow.



-------------
Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 14 April 2006 at 4:27pm

Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.


is it in bible?

-------------


Posted By: Danty
Date Posted: 14 April 2006 at 8:15pm
Dear Athanasius,

Please with all do respect, donot put any muslims in one category. Look, everyone has different views and thoughts about how life is. We are very intellectial and do take critiscism as long as you respect our religion. We will respect what you say as long as you respect us. Look, what you told Brother Ahmad was not very kind. My mother was a Christian when she married my muslim father. After 18 years of marriage, she converted on her own free will. And you know what? During those years of finding the truth, she respected my father's opinion and he respected what she had to say. (She was a Presbytarian, then Babtists, and finally she became muslim) So, how can you say that all muslims are not intelligent and donot accept criticism. One way for Muslims to even know that Islam is the truth, is by asking questions about there religion and others. One more thing when you said " We believe in freedom of thought and expression - something that censorship does not allow." Not all Christians are that way either. So please, don't put anybody in one category. Thanks.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 15 April 2006 at 4:22am

AhmadJoyia, I'm with ya on your point  

 



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 15 April 2006 at 7:21pm

Assalamu Alaikum!

Brother AhmadJoyia,

No offense intended, could you please elaborate the difference between dialogue and debate, if any?

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 16 April 2006 at 12:10am

brother ahmadjoyia, i agree with what sister khadija said.

and i totally disagree with you brother.

i don't think this is unhealthy censorship. this is an islamic forum. people who enter this forum know that they come here to learn Islam.



-------------
It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 16 April 2006 at 8:56am
Originally posted by salman

brother ahmadjoyia, i agree with what sister khadija said.


and i totally disagree with you brother.


i don't think this is unhealthy censorship. this is an islamic forum. people who enter this forum know that they come here to learn Islam.



Then how will people know abuot Islam, if we dont let them ask questions?

-------------


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 16 April 2006 at 9:02am

brother ak, did i say that they should not ask questions regarding islam?

they may ask questions regarding islam.

masha Allah i have replied to many of questions of non-muslims in this forum.

this is an islamic forum. people who enter this forum must know that they come here to learn islam.



-------------
It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 16 April 2006 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by peacemaker

Assalamu Alaikum!

Brother AhmadJoyia,

No offense intended, could you please elaborate the difference between dialog and debate, if any?

Peace

Dear Bro, I think neither of the two cases can be applied to the threads that I referred in my last post that were locked out. It was hardly any dialog, what to call debate had yet started in them. Just for an example "Is God an Absolute Unity " where the only reply given was simply an agreement by bro AK. More so, I don't see any citations by the moderators for locking it out.



Posted By: -ArabianKnight-
Date Posted: 16 April 2006 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Athanasius

You know, Ahmad, Christians already believe that Muslims are rather anti-intellectual, and not willing to submit to honest critical thought.  This just confirms it more.  As a Christian, I'd be willing to answer any question you would throw at me.  I'm not going to shut you down for asking questions.

Look, Muslims put out fatwas on those who write or say things contrary to Islam.  Christians aren't into that.  We believe in freedom of thought and expression - something that censorship does not allow.



Its not Muslims who fear criticism.. and Christianity isnt all that into freedom of thought and expression as you may think... Christanity has one of the darkest anti-intellectual past of any civilization... and some Muslim groups are catching up quick.. The problem on this forum is that Its an "Islamic Forum..." a phrase that is as vague as midnight fog. The moderators act more emotionally and from cultural interpretations rather than a set rule.... Sure they may have a list of Rules ( The forum Guidlines ) but the Rules are interpretive. Free Means we dont pay.. so I guess one can only discuss what they deem fit for the masses.

-------------
THere Is no god, BUT GOD
and Adam was his First Messenger
_____________________________


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 2:40am
In dialog both sides listen to each other and try to understand different viewpoints.

Debate is when someone tries to suppress the other's argument by whatever means necessary.  The emphasis is on logical trickery and rhetoric. 

The difference is similar to the difference between teamwork and warfare.


-------------
David C.


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 6:34am
Originally posted by DavidC

In dialog both sides listen to each other and try to understand different viewpoints.Debate is when someone tries to suppress the other's argument by whatever means necessary.  The emphasis is on logical trickery and rhetoric.  The difference is similar to the difference between teamwork and warfare.


well said David


-------------


Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 7:22am

AK_M_f  You ask whether the concept of freedom is in the Bible.  I would say it definitely is; for instance, Jesus said,

"If the Son has set you free, you are free indeed."

Christianity has had a long tradition of internal debate.  Theology was, after all, defined by Councils, where debates took place.  Christians attribute the consensus to the activity of the Holy Spirit, who was sent to guide the Church into all truth. If you access most Christian website, you will quickly learn that Christians debate among themselves (on the minors, not the majors), and that kind of debate can be very healthy. 

Now, on the other hand, I would say that Islam may not have that same tradition of free exchanges of ideas and concepts pertaining to theological doctrine.  That is why you will not generally see this kind of give and take among Muslims and Non-Muslims on Muslim-owned websites.  You will see it,however, on Christian-oriented sites.  That's just the way it is, I suppose, and I don't think there is going to be any big break-through in dialogue in the near future.

Of course Muslims believe they are right, and Christians believe deeply that they are right.  However, Christians don't usually make remaining a Christian a matter of physical life or death (at least not in this era). I believe that "freedom of religious expression" is a Western concept, and of biblical origin.  For instance, when Paul spoke of heretical teachers, he never condemned them with a death sentence - he simply said, "anathema."  Surely, Jesus never taught any compulsion in religion - in fact He taught exactly the opposite: "no man can come to Me, unless the Father draws him."

This Christian view is evidenced by the Calvinist system of theology which speaks of election from the foundations of the earth. 

So, this is my view on the matter, A



-------------
Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.


Posted By: Danty
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 8:20am
Anathanasius,

Have you read the Quran? How can you say anything about Islam without knowledge of it. I can tell by your post that you know your religion well. Don't say anyhting about a muslim unless you have read more about our religion. We are good people. It seems like you, yourself needs to open up in learning and asking questions about religion. My mom was Christian before marrying my father. After 18 years of marriage and research of religion, she chose Islam. Please take the time to learn. May God guide you. Peace.


Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 8:28am
Actually, Danty I have read the Quran and also have read many collateral books.  I happen to know a great deal about Islam.

-------------
Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 9:24am

“You know, Ahmad, Christians already believe that Muslims are rather anti-intellectual, and not willing to submit to honest critical thought.” 

You know, Athanasius, I called my mom, the best Christian that I have ever known, and she said that she most certainly does not believe this.

Servetus 



Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 10:48am
Servetus, I don't know your mother, or her knowledge of Islam.  I do know that Islamic culture, as a whole, is not based on freedom of thought.  A modern example of this might be the plight of the gentleman in Afghanistan who was recently saved from the death penalty for his conversion to Christianity (of course, the cop-out was that the fellow was insane).  The free exchange of information is a Western Concept derived from philosophies impacted by Judeo-Christian cultural norms.

-------------
Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 11:04am

Athanasius,

You are talking about a nation that has been gripped by war for as long as I've been alive.  There is something like a 96% illiteracy rate in Afghanistan and many of the people have never even read the Quran or ahadiths of their own religion.  They go off of what is taught by the mullahs or whom many themselves are relatively uneducated.  This is a very tribal society that incorporates tribal custom into Islamic belief.  Many scholars from around the world pleaded with the Afghan government to spare his life and rejected it as an unIslamic act.  CAIR was one of them. 

The Quran encourages learning and science.  While we Europeans were plunged into the dark ages, they were studying Science and Mathematics. 

Education is a cornerstone of Islam.  Keeping people ignorant is the tool of tribal societies not wanting to lose control of the people to the higher call of Islam. 

Athanasius, please go to this site, it had all the ahadiths, three translations of the Quran and a host of other information on Islam.

You claim to have read the Quran, but I wonder.  Did you read it cover to cover, have you read and studied the Sunnah?  What sources did you use?  Were they Islamic sources or Christian sources on Islam? 

Just check this site out.....there would not be so many sites out there like this if it weren't for the Islamic love of learning.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html



-------------


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 11:20am

“Servetus, I don't know your mother, or her knowledge of Islam.”

 

Athanasius, perhaps at some point I shall introduce you to her.  In the meantime, she is comparatively –at times, astoundingly- well informed and tends to take issue when others appoint themselves to speak for her or her beliefs with such statements as “Christians believe that Muslims …”

  

Serv 



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

One of the moderator (probably sis Khadijah) made the following remarks to which I don't fully agree with. She says "

***What part of my warning did you fail to understand?  Non-Muslims are not invited here to debate their faith.  They are invited here to learn about Islam.  It appears to me that your sole purpose here is to proselytize which is not permitted because this is a MUSLIM forum group.  We are here to learn about Islam.  We love our faith.  We do not beg others to come here; however, we warmly welcome them if they truly desire to learn about Islam."** "

Here I do like to draw her attention to a particular area of this forum, where healthy discussion among different faiths ( http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=10 - Islamic Interfaith Dialogue ) is discussed to learn. This learning is a both way traffic through which we all benefit. If we believe, as Muslims, that we are on the right path, then we must be able to demonstrate it as well beyond our "blind" faith with appropriate logic and using wisdom that Allah has given us. However, we are incapable of doing so, then such tactics of "shuting up others" would not help either. Here, ( http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=10 - Islamic Interfaith Dialogue ), I do see a lot of threads being un-necessarily locked out with out assigning any reason to it, that too, hardly the discussion has begun in them. Now for them I really couldn't understand as why such an action took place. Are we afraid of some thing?

Now coming to the specific word "proselytize " which our moderators levishly use to chop others, it must be realised that it is a relative term and must be used in very extrem situations. Untill or unless someone is behaving such as not to listen to logical arguments presented by others and whose only purpose is to declare his opinon without rationalist understanding of it, I don't think such a lable can be fixed so easily on this forum.

 

Bismillah,

I agree that interfaith is meant for open discussions and dialoge.  However, even that liberal section should never allow Islaam bashing and preaching by atheists or believers of other faiths.

I agree with Sister Khadija's comments and support them.  I appreciate her effort and good will towards us which is solely for the purpose of assisting all of the Muslims and friends of Muslims here.  She would never oppress anyone as others have slurred her by remarking.

Peace.



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 1:47pm
Well, frankly, I would like to know why on earth I am blocked from responding to an individual on a thread I BEGAN: Learning About Christianity.  It would appear that there is a rather blatant favortism here, and individuals are arbitrarily blocked.  This raises some issues that I am currently having my staff research.

-------------
Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.


Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 3:43pm

Assalamu Alaikum:

This thread started out as a simple question asking why certain threads or posts are 'censored'. As you can read for youselves, it has turned into bickering, name calling, and religious one-up-manship. It is way off topic and not very pleasant.

This is a perfect example of why some threads are being monitored, edited, and deleted or closed.

Athanasius: this is an ISLAMIC website. Please feel free to have your 'staff' check into anything that you like. We have the right to 'censor' any posts that do not conform with Islamic behavior or manners. We also have the right to ban any user from the forum who is causing disruption or not following the Guidelines.

As for proselytizing, if someone is here to learn about Islam, that will be obvious within a few posts. If they ask questions only to turn them around to prove that another religion is correct, they are not here to learn but rather to preach. There are some posters here who relish these threads and enjoy the back and forth, but there are many posters here who do not. There are also new Muslims here who may be confused by these posts, or those who are non-Muslims who sincerely want to learn, who find this disturbing.

I do not believe for a second that that was or is the purpose of this forum. It should be a place for all to come and LEARN in a relatively nurturing environment. I invite anyone who is criticizing the Moderators to go back and read some of the recent posts and ask yourselves honestly if these posts reflect this type of an environment. And please keep in mind that some of the most argumentative and negative posts have been deleted.

 

 



-------------
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)


Posted By: -ArabianKnight-
Date Posted: 17 April 2006 at 4:12pm

Learning Enviroment: 2 - Islamic Forum: 16

Looks like the points are stacked in one direction.. But Keep up this ******* of a nuturing enviroment..

why dont you just let them preach.. its not like anyone would really change his or her viewpoint just based on some random information on the internet. In the end.. if the person was going to be swayed one way or the other.. the seeds would have been planted a long time ago...

Christians will see things through christian lenses, and will try to prove this or that with scripture here.. "evidence there"... and the Muslims do the same thing... you cant prove somthing to somone else if they dont believe in your source. Though there are exceptions... still in the end its about faith... and a few words cant change that.

Only those who have somthing to loose... fear information...
".....Truth Stands Clear from Error" (2:256).... right?

P.S. people who have been on this forum for only 6 months.... maybe shouldnt be moderators.



-------------
THere Is no god, BUT GOD
and Adam was his First Messenger
_____________________________


Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 18 April 2006 at 1:35am
Originally posted by -ArabianKnight-


P.S. people who have been on this forum for only 6 months.... maybe shouldnt be moderators.

This is a bit harsh.

The new moderators are doing a great job. May Allah reward them for their efforts. Ameen

Are you jealous?

 



-------------
“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 18 April 2006 at 2:25am

Assalamu Alaikum!

Now the thread has lost the direction, so it has to be closed.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13



Print Page | Close Window