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veiling

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Culture & Community
Forum Name: Groups – Women (Sisters)
Forum Discription: Groups – Women (Sisters)
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2914
Printed Date: 21 October 2014 at 5:10pm


Topic: veiling
Posted By: interested
Subject: veiling
Date Posted: 09 November 2005 at 2:16pm
I have always been interested in the concept of veiling in Islam. Some women wear the hijab and only cover their head whereas others wear the burqa and cover their entire bodies. Still, others decide not to veil at all. I have heard that veiling was not explicitly stated in the Qur'an. But as Muslim women, I wanted to know what all of you thought about veiling. Do you believe that veiling was mandated in the Qur'an? And also, if you do not veil, does that make you a bad Muslim?



Replies:
Posted By: queenie
Date Posted: 09 November 2005 at 3:39pm
 

Praise be to Allaah.

Everyones favourite topic nowadays!

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

This aayah clearly states that it is obligatory to cover all of a woman’s beauty and adornments and not to display any part of that before non-mahram men (“strangers”) except for whatever appears unintentionally, in which case there will be no sin on them if they hasten to cover it up.(However there is a difference of opinion by scholars on the covering of the face and therefore niqaab is not fardh).

Al-Haafiz ibn Katheer said in his Tafseer:

This means that they should not display any part of their adornment to non-mahrams, apart from that which it is impossible to conceal. Ibn Mas’ood said: such as the cloak and robe, i.e., what the women of the Arabs used to wear, an outer garment which covered whatever the woman was wearing, except for whatever appeared from beneath the outer garment. There is no sin on a woman with regard to this because it is impossible to conceal it.

omen cover their hair because Allaah has commanded them to do so, and it is not permissible for them to go against what He says and disobey His command. Allaah has only commanded them to do this because there is great wisdom in it. !

Confirmation of this is to be found in the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

“… That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed…” [al-Ahzaab 33:59]. If a woman covers herself, then immoral and corrupt men will know that this is not part of their prey, thus Allaah will protect them and take care of them.

Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have issued a stern warning to women who make a display of themselves. An example of this is:

Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are two types of the people of Hell whom I have not seen: a people with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they beat the people, and women who are clothed but naked, walking with an enticing gait and with their heads looking like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will not enter Paradise and will not even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance can be detected from such and such a distance.”

(Narrated by Muslim, 2128).

When did not use to cover and I was researching hijaab I came across the above ayaah. The words shook me and struck a kind of fear in my heart that prompted me towards hijaab.

No doubt many will respond to your post with the excuse...." I don't wear hijab because.....blah blah blah."

however a woman [or a man] should not try to comprehend Islamic rulings with her reason – which is unable to encompass the wisdom of sharee’ah. She should know that whatever Allaah has enjoined upon her contains nothing but goodness and happiness for her, her family and society as a whole. It is known that a woman’s uncovering her hair makes her more attractive to men, which could lead to them forming hopes about her and committing immoral actions. Islam wants society to be clean, with no provocation of desires, outrage or uncovering of women’s charms – which include their hair – which can lead to others being tempted by her and which opens the door to evil and its people.

Islam means submitting to Allaah. The believer follows the command of Allaah even if he does not know the wisdom behind it or he does not find anything to convince his reason of it, because his obedience of his Lord and his submission to His command take priority over all other things, and worship is based on obedience and submission. The quran says wa sami'na wa' atana (we hear and we obey). There really does not need to be a discussion about whether hijab is fardh or not.

Also there are conditions to what a hijab should be. These are summarised by most scholars as

  1. The hijaab must cover her entire body

  2. It should be thick enough to conceal what is underneath it

  3. It should be loose-fitting

  4. It should not be perfumed

  5. It should not be a dress of fame and vanity (i.e., it should be extravagant or excessively opulent)

  6. It should not resemble the dress of men

  7. It should not be adorned with any crosses or pictures of animate beings                                                                                   we ask Allaah to show us the truth and help us to follow it, and to show us falsehood and help us to avoid it.

And Allaah knows best.



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:59am

Bismillah,

Here are some ideas and discussions we recently had on this topic.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2881&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2881& ;PN=1

You could do a search on this forum to find more discussion if you are still interested.

Briefly, I disagree with Q above.  Many are like me, few speak out in forums like this or stick around, but here I am.

Okay.  A few sentences on where I got such wild ideas.  The women in the time the Holy Quran was revealed went around bare breasted sometimes but usually wore a head scarf, long and loose.  So when the women were told to cover, that was what they were covering.

Since no one I know goes around bare topped, how does this still apply?  Wait, don't answer Q.  That was rhetorical.  That sentence means that there are scholars who believe it doesn't apply!  There are books.  Mine were stolen.  Look it up!

But I think it's great for women to wear scarves.  They are so pretty and you can definitely tell the women are Muslimat.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 10:51am

As-Salaam Alaikum,

I see women go around breast, buttocks, and stomach out.  I see them everyday.  I see women acting in seductive way.  All I have to do is look T.V. also.  There are women in college and universities sleeping with their professors so they can get A's. []  There women who carry this believe that they have to be seductive, and sleeping around in order to achieve things in life.  So yeah it does apply for today.  If you study the history also, you will learn that women conducted themselves in this manner.  All Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was trying to do is teach women that they are more that just breast, booty, hair, and thighs.  That we are powerful, and let NO ONE take advantage of you.

Hakeema

Hakeema



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Posted By: queenie
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 12:55pm
" The women in the time the Holy Quran was revealed went around bare breasted sometimes but usually wore a head scarf, long and loose.  So when the women were told to cover, that was what they were covering" hahhahaa. LOL . really? are you f'real herjihad? I have heard many many reasons as to why women were prescribed to wear hijab. But its the first time I've heard this one. subhanallah. where do you get these books from?


Posted By: aishag88
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 12:01pm
 I could not imgaime going around with my breasts out! even if it was a norm or something. how emebarrsing


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 November 2005 at 12:18am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim

Women of arabia in preislamic age would take their scarfs on their heads, but did not wrap it around the shoulders and the bossom. (This does not mean they did not wear a shirt!).

The scarf would cover the head and fall back. Wrapping it around the shoulders to cover the neck and the shape of the bossom is more modest, and this is the command in the Quran. In other words, there is no question about not covering the head, as the head was already being covered in that time as well. The purpose of the veil in the quran was made more elaborate, ie to conceal the hair, the neck, the shape of shoulders and bossom.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen



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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 17 November 2005 at 8:56pm

Bishmillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem 

Assalmu Alaikum

Originally posted by queenie

  “O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Sister Queenie, out of all of the translations I have seen regarding Sura 33. Ayat 59, that is the only one that makes a statement about covering the entire body including the face.  I have researched a number of translations and the following appears to be the more appropriate way to translated Sura 33, Ayat 59

 

“O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient that they should be known (as such) and not molested: and Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.”

 

This passage is a message about the need to protection ourselves from those who might molest us.  By covering our bodies from the eyes of onlookers, we identify ourselves as Muslimahs, and hence, by doing so we, inshallah, protect ourselves from the ways and acts of non-muslims.

 

In Ayat 59 of Sura 33, there is definitely no indication that one must use a face veil and it is even questionable if a head cover is even required.  To cover one’s “person” doesn’t necessary mean to cover one’s head.

 

In Sura 24, there are some ayats about how women (and men) should behave in public.  Both men and women should lower their gaze and guard their modesty (24,30-31).  Ayat 31 also says that women should “draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands” and others who are maharem (family members as ascribed in Islam) for them.  Furthermore, in Ayat 31 it say that they should not act in ways that will draw attention to what is hidden.  In these passages, we see there is a need for Muslimahs (and Muslims) to protect their modesty. However, there is no wording here that makes an explicit claim about covering the head and/or face.  It says, “…they should draw their veils over their bosoms…” not “they should draw their veils over their heads.”

 

There is a passage (Sura 33, Ayat 53) which many use as justification for saying that Muslimahs not only should but are commanded to cover both their heads and their faces.  It is as follows:

 

         “O ye who Believe! enter not the Prophet's houses until leave is given you for a meal (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited enter; and when ye have taken your meal disperse without seeking familiar talk. Such (behavior) annoys the Prophet: He is ashamed to dismiss you but Allah is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah's Apostle or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah's sight an enormity.”

 

Many people take “And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want ask them from before a screen” to mean the Prophet’s wives wore face veils while in the company of non-maharem, and therefore, so should or must all Muslimahs.  However, there are two points I want to make.  First and foremost, this is a passage about the Prophet’s (pbuh) home and how non-maharems should enter it and what they should and should not do while there.  Even if the Prophet’s (pbuh) wives were commanded to speak from behind a screen in the presence of non-maharem men doesn’t imply that all women were commanded to do so.  The Prophet’s (pbuh) wives had special roles in the development of Islam just as did the Prophet (pbuh).  That is why the Prophet (pbuh) was allowed to have more than 4 wives while other Muslims were not.  And why the Prophet’s (pbuh) were not allowed to remarry after the Prophet (pbuh) while other Muslimah widows could (see Sura 33,  Ayat 53  ”…ye should not marry his widows after him at any time.”).  Hence, even if this passage delivers the message that the Prophet’s (pbuh) wives were commanded to wear face veils in the presence of non-maharems, it doesn’t explicitly entail that all Muslimahs must do so also.

 

Second, there is room to question whether the statement “from before a screen” refers to a face veil.  There is a possibility that it is not a face veil which is referred to in this particular ayat, but rather, a screen partition put up in the room at times when non-marahem(s) were invited over for dinner which is being referred to in this Ayat.  The screen would allow the women to be in the same room while allowing them not to be seen by the guest(s).  If the guest(s) needed something, they could simply ask before the screen which would afford the wives to hear the request without being seen.

 

If we turn to the hadiths it becomes even clearer that Ayat 53 of Sura 33 refers to the conduct that takes places in the home of the Prophet (pbuh).  We also see that it is highly probably that it was a room sceen (like a curtain) that was referred to in Ayat 59 of Sura 33 and not a veil covering the faces of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).  There are many hadiths which make reference to the event which lead to the revealing of Sura 33.  The following are from Shahi Bukhair’s collection of Hadiths:

 

“At that time the Divine Verse of Al-Hijab was revealed, and the Prophet set a screen between me and him (his family).” from Hadith 255 of Vol 8, Book 74

 

“he [the Prophet] drew the curtain between me and him” from Hadith 316  of Vol 6, Book 60

 

“he [the Prophet] lowered the curtain between me and him” from Hadith 317 of Vol 6, Book 60

 

“the Prophet drew a curtain between me and him” from Hadith 095 of Vol 7, Book 62

 

“the Prophet hung a curtain between me and him” from Hadith 375 of Vol 7, Book 65

 

 

So, was it a face veil or a room divider (like a curtain) that was put up when the Prophet (pbuh) had guests in his house?  And even if face veils were required of the Prophet’s (pbuh) wives while outside of (or even inside) their homes, does this lead to it being obligatory for all Muslimahs?  I think not necessarily and certainly not explicitly.

 

I, personally, would argue that there are no ayats in the Qur’an which explicitly states a Muslimah (at least not one who is not a wife of the Prophet (pbuh)) must cover her head or her face.  What is explicit, however, is that she must protect her modesty.  If she cannot protect her modesty without covering either (or both) her head and her face, then she must do so.  It is really that simple.

 

Since we tend to make judgments about others based upon our own understanding of Islam, before I close, I will to turn to another ayat that I find most helpful in making decisions about what is “righteous” regarding our actions and behaviors in Islam.  Ayat 177 of Sura 2 states the following:

 

         “It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces toward East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day and the Angels and the Book and the Messengers; to spend of your substance out of love for Him for your kin for orphans for the needy for the wayfarer for those who ask and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient in pain (or suffering) and adversity and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth the Allah-fearing.”

 

So, true righteousness is not about the way we turn our heads (or even the way we cover them), it’s the way we love Allah in our hearts and have faith in Him and hold fast to the Pillars of Islam.  As long as we do this while protecting our modesty, no one has the right to say if we are right or wrong except Allah.  I know some will be upset by my position on this issue but I truly believe it is that simple and we need not make Islam any harder than it needs to be in order to live righteous lives therein.

 

Allah Hafiz

 

PAZ,

Khadijah

 



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 18 November 2005 at 3:11am

Bismillah,

Thank you, Khadija!  Many Muslim women feel this way.  They just are not in the mosques daily or these discussion boards because they don't like the controversy.  It's boring to them because they've hashed over it repeatedly.  And they have a community which they are happy with. 

This is my community, and I am so glad you posted this.  JazzakAllahKhayr!



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 18 November 2005 at 6:17am

Assalamu Alaikum,

Sister Herjihad, Jazak Allah for your kind words.  Although I have been away from this board for a few months, this is my community also.  I have no local Islamic community  but Alhamdulillah  I have a place to learn and share here at IC.  Yes, I know that some people come here and for a number of reasons do not stay and I feel the full weight of their decision from time to time here myself.  However, what I have come to know is that it is so important for me to have the on going support I get from those who are here to give it.  Not all are, but Mashallah some are.  So, I try my best to cling to the good and let the bad roll off my back like water on a duck and say Allahu Akbar often.

I know that a lot of Muslims might (more like probably will) say I hold this belief regarding hijab because I am a "westerner"; however, if that is what I wanted to do (i.e., to be a westerner) I simply do not believe that Allah would have so mercifully called me to Islam.  I truly love Islam from the very depths of my heart and soul.  I would not intentionally do anything to bring harm or to deface any aspect of Islam.  I do not believe in innovating or deviating from Allah's truth; however, I do believe in obtaining the truth about Islam and not merely believing every opinion every sister or brother I come in contact has.  One of the things I love about Islam is that we are each commanded to seek knowledge and understanding and not to simply depend on others to spoon feed us.  We are not babies who lack the ability to reason…Allahu Akbar…Alhamdulillah…Allah is so merciful and kind. 

If I chose not to wear a head cover, I do not do so based on some selfish desire to disobey Allah and to have my own way.  I do so on the grounds that there is no conclusive evidence in the Qur'an that I must do so and that what truly is required of me is to guard my modesty in the absolute best way that I can.  If guarding my modesty means I must wear a hijab then there is no question that I will be in hijab.  However, if guarding my modesty is best done by not doing so, then that is also absolutely what I will do.

The mistake I see so many Muslims make and what I think causes many Muslims to fret and waste their energy on things that are not truly significant in Islam is that they cannot grasp the different between Allah's Laws and human existence and to understand how we should use Allah's Laws to live as Allah wants us to in this human existence we temporarily find ourselves in.  Although Allah's Laws are objective truths, we exist in a world that naturally gives rise to situational subjectivism.  What we need to do is to truly understand what Allah is commanding of us so that we can apply it to any and all situations as they arise in our lives and not simply have a checklist of do's and don'ts in our mind.  The problem with only having a checklist is what do you do when you come up to a situation that is not on your list?  The beauty of understand Islam on this deeper level is that as we are able to ascend to deeper and deeper levels of understanding, we strengthen our deen and are blessed with an understanding of Allah's knowledge which allow us to do what is Islamic-ly right in any situation, not just in this or that situation.  We also became less judgmental of others and more introspective regarding our own deen which, inshallah, allows us to discuss topics without getting caught up in the pettiness that we humans so easily get caught up in.

Subhan Allah, it really does feel good to be back in IC forum.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ,

Khadija



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 18 November 2005 at 6:32am

Bismillah,

I so agree with you about the checklist mentality needing to be abandoned for thought and action.  I feel so badly for women who have no choices about their situation.  There are so many more important women's issues to be discussed amonst us. 

Many women are abused in their homes all over the world.  What can we do to help them?  Women who follow the pillars of Islaam need to pull together to protect each other and get the men in our communities do so also.

I heard stories that non-American Muslim women told me ranging from having had porn videos in their home as children, to having been molested or raped by family members and having no one to tell because of what would have happened to them.

The practise of having family members sharing sleeping space without adult supervision is wrong.  Now, I saw a family who had three rooms for about 12 people.  That's the kitchen, a small living room, and a very small bedroom; well, the patio was medium size and good for non-rainy days.  They had the boys in one room and the girls in the other.  I think mom and dad may have slept in the kitchen on the floor when they needed more privacy.  So I know that people can separate in sleeping unless they have less rooms than this.  We need to encourage good separation of the sexes when it is most appropriate.

One story is of cousins of different sexes sharing sleeping space after they had reached puberty, just for visiting purposes!  Cultures who have the idea that the rules don't apply to them are wrong.  Why separate from strangers who would only say hi to you, when you are exposed to this kind of thing at home?  We need to work together on issues like this to protect the Ummah of our Holy Prophet Muhammad.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 18 November 2005 at 8:08am

Sister Herjihad, I agree with you that as Muslimat we all need to pull together to try and bring about positive changes for the betterment of the Ummah.  Muslimat all over the globe are being denies their Islamic rights.  However, this is a completely different topic so maybe you should start another thread. ...hint...hint

PAZ



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 18 November 2005 at 8:48am

Bismillah,

They both fall under women's issues, and I know that you got my point.  Will the others?  ISA.  I would love to advocate for women's rights because when women and mothers are respected and honored and cared for, we share this bounty with our families.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: queenie
Date Posted: 19 November 2005 at 3:12am
so if we are not explicitly told in the qu'ran to cover our heads and islam does not tell us to then why on earth do we do it? Why is the hijab ban in france such an issue for us muslim women? why is sabina begum in the UK such an icon for young muslim girls in england? why are the wives of all the most prominent islamic scholars of islam today wearing the head covering? Obviously there is somthing in islam that tells us to do this doesn't it? otherwise we might aswell just take off our veils and become "free " . i'm sick to death of all this reform islam business. islam is perfect, its flawless, its the religion of haq. no it doesn't allow homosexuality, yes it allows polygamy, yes you can marry younger women, but you can marry older ones too, yes women have to cover,...these things are mentioned in islam. why be ashamed of the truth? in islam women have the right to divorce, property, marriage, the first martyr in islam was a woman, women have participated in battles alongside sahabah. why is it the muslim women are nowadays banging on about things that islam does not allow. its nice that sisters are preaching islam but they need to remember put it across as it is. don't try to change it. because by doing so its an insult to the deen and you won't be successful anyway.


Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 6:41am

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu  

Here we go again. What I have found with regard to this issue is that the discussion always goes around in circles.

Sometimes I feel that these questions are posted just to cause Fitnah. Auzo Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim.

Sis Khadija, it seems that you are trying to confuse the already confused. To me it seems that although you are quoting the same Ayat as Sis Queeni you are saying that neither Hijab nor Niqab is a requirement for the Muslimah today and Hijab/Niqab was only meant for the wives of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam).

Regarding covering the face, yes there are scholars who say that it is not necessary and there are others who are saying that it is an obligation for a woman to cover her face. Allah knows best. But covering the head and the bosom (the purpose of the Hijab) is an obligation which no scholar as yet refuted. (none that I know of)

Here I am not talking about today's so called "scholars". We have all become scholars of a sort Auzo Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim. One of the signs of the Final Hour is when religious ignorance will prevail and religious knowledge will be taken away by the death of religious scholars. (Al-Bukhari volume 1 Hadith no 80)

There is a Hadith reported by A'ishah (Radhi Allahu Anha) regarding Verse 31 Surah An-Nur:

"May Allah bestow His Mercy on the early emigrant women, when Allah revealed "and draw their veils all over their bosoms" – they tore their woolen dresses or waist-bindings cloth or apron and covered their heads and faces with those cut pieces of cloth." (Sahih al Bukhari No 4759)

For any sister to deny and say that Hijab is not an obligation on women, may find herself committing a grave mistake. And to tell others not to wear the Hijab – she most definitely will be committing a sin. The choice to wear or not to wear the Hijab is individual. And that is between Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and the person. Alhamdulillah we do not have to bear the burden of others not even our close relatives. To each their own.

Regarding Niqab, like I said earlier – here scholars differ. But we have a Hadith again by A'ishah (Radhi Allahu Anhu). As we all know one of the requirements for a woman during pilgrimage is to uncover her face. "When we were in Ihram and the riders would pass by us, when they got close to us, we would lower our outer cloak from our heads over our faces." (Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawud and ibn Majah). There is an interesting point here: if it is a requirement for women to uncover their faces during pilgrimage that means that their faces should be covered at other times, or else this statement is null and void. And secondly when we are amongst non-Mahram men we should draw our outer cloak to cover our faces even during the pilgrimage.

Another point sister Khatija you are trying to prove that veiling was only for the wives of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) and not for the Muslimah even during that period. You are also using Hadith emphasizing that it was a curtain not a veil.

So are you trying to tell us that the Prophet's (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) wives only (Radhi Allahu Anhuna) were ordered to speak to non-Marham men from behind a curtain that’s it? Did their go out of their dwellings with their faces uncovered? Oh sori you do state that:

"And even if face veils were required of the Prophet’s (pbuh) wives while outside of (or even inside) their homes, does this lead to it being obligatory for all Muslimahs?  I think not necessarily and certainly not explicitly."

If Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala made the wives of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam); the mothers of the Believers whom none could marry after his death – Islamically speaking all men living during that period were Mahrams to the Prophet's (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) wives (Radhi Allahu Anhuna), so really speaking these Ayat should not imply to them. Unfortunately that is what you are trying to say that these Ayat refer only to the wives of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) to the exclusion of other Muslimah during that period, today and till the Day of Judgment. Is that really your understanding? Don't you think there is something wrong with this reasoning? Shouldn’t we be trying our best to follow in the footsteps of the wives of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam)? Isn’t their example that all Muslimah should strive to follow?

I don't think anyone will be upset but what you have said, it is your opinion based on your understanding. This is my opinion based on my understanding. We all belong to this community as we are all members here even though some of us are not as active as others. We are here to support and help each other to become better Muslimah so that we can achieve our ultimate goal ie. Jannatul-Firdaus Insha Allah Ameen!

It is not a question about being spoon fed Sister Khatija, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala tell us to refer matters which we don't know/understand to the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) (during his life time) and the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) further instructed us to refer to men of knowledge, that is why most of us refer to the scholars to better understand the different aspects of the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah. I have yet to find a renowned scholar claiming that Hijab is NOT an obligation. Alhamdulillah my research led me to wear the Hijab eventually. Insha Allah I pray with further research your heart will be opened to the truth. Ameen!

Being "western or eastern" is not the question. This is a global issue. Alhamdulillah Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala guided us to HIS Deen, but HE also warns us that we will be tested in many ways, and personally I feel the biggest test for women to accept is that Hijab is an obligation. Alhamdulillah He opened my heart to HIS Deen, then wearing the Hijab and Insha Allah one day I pray, soon I will also wear the Niqab, because a tiny part in my heart tells me that it is an obligation. Even if it is not, Insha Allah it will bring me closer to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. Insha Allah Ameen!

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us for our shortcomings and protect us from the evil within ourselves. Ameen!

 



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“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:40am

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

Sister Herijhad I agree that there a lot of other important issues that can be discussed, but Hijab is also a very important issue. And it is one of the issues that will never go away.

However I take offense to your mention of non-American Muslims and their family behavior. Raping, immorality etc are behaviors of the west, it is so common in that society that it is now overlooked. So what do you mean by non-American Muslims - Muslims who have settled in America who have now adapted to the norms of this society and who have left the teachings and duties of being a Muslim. Any Muslim whether he is an American or non-American, living in the west or the east, who holds on firmly to the Rope of Allah and follows the teachings as laid down in the Shariah will not do anything shameful to jeopardize his place in Paradise.

It is when we love this world and live only for this world that we are faced with this problem.

I agree morals amongst Muslims in the east and west are falling very rapidly. The reason why it is so noticeable now amongst Muslims, is that Muslims always set high standards for themselves from time immemorial, now they have reverted to being ignorant of the true teachings of Islam. Moral decadence was always a way of life in other cultures so there are no shock waves. It is an accepted norm.

Since as you mentioned both are woman's issues, I responded here.

Insha Allah don't use a term like that – be more general, I feel you are being racialist and that is against the teachings of Islam. It is like you are saying American Muslims are saints and non-American Muslims are rapist, wife abusers. etc.



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“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 9:05am

Bismillah,

Dear Sister Khadija, I still agree with you, and I am very glad for your comments here.

Flower, Here is an example:  When someone says, and we all do:  He made me angry, it is not accurate.  Because we choose our own reaction to people's behavior and statments.  When we take control over our reactions as much as we can, always striving to do so, then we will have a blessed world filled with peaceful behavior, especially among people who basically agree on things.

For example, we are both Muslim women and we love the blessed, honorable prophets of our deen, correct?  So pardon me for not being clear in my examples above.  I was making a couple of points at least.  One was that women all over the world are suffering from lack of proper understanding of the separation of men and women.  I mention this issue because of the need to work on it together, not to argue over its validity.  I haven't seen American Muslims make this mistake, but I'm sure they have.  However, I point this out as a cultural weakness that needs to be solved for the sake of the women and children who are harmed by it.  Whatever culture ignores these basic rules puts its people in harms way. 

Some women wear jilbab and hijab outside, some don't, but they still have no personal security in their homes.  And they don't even understand how personal modesty and proper separation can protect them from harm.  We need to change this.  I totally disagree wtih you that hijab is up there in importance with Faith.  The whole point is for us to be as safe and respectable as we can be.

When Mumineen who believe as you do engage in conversation about this, someone always without fail quotes that the latter days will be filled with ignorant claiming to be knowledgeable:

 "One of the signs of the Final Hour is when religious ignorance will prevail and religious knowledge will be taken away by the death of religious scholars. (Al-Bukhari volume 1 Hadith no 80)"

and that munafiqeen will go to hell, implying that believers are munafiqeen. Do you think such statments are beneficial in the context of fellow believers who love Allah, SWT, and his prophets? 

If you believe that the final hour is upon us or wish to reflect upon that, that is up to you.  I prefer to leave that to Allah, SWT, do the best I can day-to-day, as that is the point of reflecting upon the fact that the world isn't going to last forever.  My kids are very well aware that any of us could die at any time because I know this very well and have shared it with them. 

The way that you share it seemingly points the finger directly at Khadija and me.  Is that really the statement you think it is important to make?  Believers need to unite, not call each other names that are irrevocably harmful if taken to heart.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 10:48am

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

Firstly I wish to point out and make it very clear that I was not pointing fingers at anyone. Yes I was responding to yours and Sis Khadija's comments, but finger pointing – NO! no way, now you are accusing me of something I did not do.  Auzo Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim.

 

Regarding the matter about Non-American Muslim I feel you should have just said "some Muslim women" why the Non-American, that is what I took objection too. Had you said that, I would not have responded to your post, because I agree with everything you. First and foremost we are Muslims who are living in different societies and cultures and we have to work towards a common goal, fighting firstly the barriers that separate us. First we are Muslims then Americans, Indians, Canadians Malaysian etc. I am sorry if we misunderstood each other here. These behaviors are in every culture and every religion, Non-American Muslims are not the only ones guilty of these behaviors.

 

Yes you are also correct that there are sisters who wear Hijab or do not wear Hijab, there is no security at home, but that does not have any bearing on the fact that Hijab is an obligation for women. Like I said earlier this issue will go on forever. Some will be convinced of its obligations and some will not be. This is a matter that will never be resolved till the Day of Judgment. To me it is important because I regard Hijab as part of a women's faith. It is not important to you because you do not regard Hijab as an obligation. Different points of view- that’s all. I only endeavored to point out a difference just as sister Khadija pointed out regarding sister Queeni's post.

 

Sori I did not hear any Hadith about all believers are Munafiqeen. Yes I believe that quoting Authentic Hadith in discussions help others understand the Deen better. Especially the one of knowledge I posted, most definitely because there is a lot of Fitnah online – and reliable knowledge is fast fading so we have to be very careful what information we get and what we pass on. I regard this Hadith as a warning to myself first and secondly to others that is why I quote it often.

 

I think you should re-read my post and your response – whose attacking who.

 

As I said earlier, I was only responding to yours and Sister Khadija's comments, if you took that personally. Sorry that was not intended.

 

Just as you feel strongly that Hijab is not an obligation, I feel very strongly that it is.

 

Wa Alaikum Salam  



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“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: queenie
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 11:41am

sister Alwardah  I second that !

the main issue is hijab is an obligation. why are so many MUSLIM women trying to deny this truth? I really don't understand.



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 3:35pm

Assalamu alaikum Sisters,

1.  I am not judging anyone, that is the place of Allah only.  I am voicing my opinion, as you all have. 

2.  This constant banter back and forth regarding veiling/hijab is so counterproductive (I think most of you realize that).  It is an arguement that has gone on for ages and ages and probably will for ages to come.

3.  A Muslim woman's choice to wear or not wear hijab is indeed between her and Allah.

4.  That being said, it doesn't change the fact that it is obligatory.  Wishing something were otherwise doesn't make it so.  Spreading the idea that it is not obligatory is not a good idea, impressionable readers may feel "oh, well then, I don't have to wear it".  I am sure that no one would want the responsibility for casusing another to disobey Allah's clear directives in the Qur'an.

Before you all turn purple and jot off PM's to me - please just read the following, it is the clearest explaination I have ever read:

                     _______________________________________________

Answered by Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller

Why Hijab?


The Qur’anic verse, “Say to believing women, that they cast down their eyes and guard their private parts, and reveal not their adornment save such as is outward; and let them drape their headcoverings over their bosoms, and not reveal their adornment . . .” (Qur’an 24:31) is a specific requirement for Muslim women to cover their hair.

The word “headcoverings” (Ar. singular khimar, plural khumur), more familiar in our times as the hijab, is a word of well-known signification among scholars of Arabic, at their forefront the authors of the classical lexical reference dictionaries like Zabidi’s encyclopedic Taj al-‘arus or Mutarrizi’s al-Mughrib, both of which define khimar as “a woman’s headcovering”; or Fayumi’s al-Misbah or Fayruzabadi’s al-Qamus, which both define it as “a cloth with which a woman covers her head.” The Taj al-‘arus also notes that a man's turban is sometimes referred to as a khimar “because a man covers his head with it in like manner as a woman covers her head with her khimar when he disposes it in the Arab manner, turning part of it under the jaws nearly in the same manner in which a woman disposes her khimar.” These authorities are cited in the eight-volume Arabic-English Lexicon of Edward William Lane, who describes the khimar as “a woman’s muffler or veil with which she covers her head and the lower part of her face.”

There is no other lexical sense in which the word khimar may be construed. The wording of the command, however, “and let them drape their headcoverings over their bosoms,” sometimes confuses nonspecialists in the sciences of the Qur’an, and in truth, interpreting the Qur’an does sometimes require in-depth knowledge of the historical circumstances in which the various verses were revealed. In this instance, the elliptical form of the divine command is because women at the time of the revelation wore their headcovers tied back behind their necks, as some village women still do in Muslim countries, leaving the front of the neck bare, as well as the opening (Ar. singular jayb, plural juyub, translated as “bosoms” in the above verse) at the top of the dress. The Islamic revelation confirmed the practice of covering the head, understood from the use of the word khimar in the verse, but also explained that the custom of the time was not sufficient and that women were henceforth to tie the headcover in front and let it drape down to conceal the throat and the dress’s opening at the top.

This is why Muslim women cover their heads: because the Qur’an unambiguously orders them to, and there is no qualifying text or hadith or even other lexical possibility to show that the Qur’anic order might mean anything besides obligation. Rather, the hadiths all bear this meaning out, Muslim scholars are in unanimous agreement about it and have been from the time of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) down to our own day, and it is even known by all non-Muslim peoples about them.

There was thus nothing new or surprising in the Islamic legal opinion promulgated in December 2003 by the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Sheikh ‘Ali Jumu‘a of the Egyptian Fatwa Authority (Dar al-Ifta’ al-Misriyya) that “the hijab is an obligation on all Muslim female adults, as firmly established in the Holy Qur’an and the Prophet Muhammad’s hadiths, as well as unanimously agreed upon by Muslim scholars.” He pointed out that unlike the cross sometimes worn by Christians, or the skullcap worn by Jews, the hijab is not a “symbol” of Islam but rather that “Islam orders female adults to wear hijab as obligatory religious clothing.” It is part of every Muslim woman’s religious practice.

Some ink and words have been spent by some contemporary ethnic Muslim women writers (and an occasional convert) trying to do away with the covering of hair mandated by the Qur’an and the unanimous consensus of Muslims. They say—accurately enough, for a Muslim does not leave Islam merely by committing a sin—that one can take off the hijab and still remain a Muslim. But such a person remains a bad Muslim, who deems aping non-Muslims better than practicing Islam. For what? The Supreme Being knows our benefit better than we do; and if one believes in Allah, Master of every atom in the universe, it is only plain sense to follow Him. When all else fails, read the directions. Those who refuse to wear the hijab are acting out of ignorance or bad faith, and when one meets them, one seldom finds they manage to practice the other aspects of their religion. In the end, it is a matter of hearts. The heart that is alive has a sense of eternity, and knows that the infinite is greater than the finite. The heart that is dead follows the trends of the trend makers because it has turned its back on the Divine and forgotten endless time.

© MMV Nuh Keller

                     ________________________________________

Those who do not wish to wear hijab, by all means, it is your free will, given to you by Allah.  But please, quit spreading the lie that hijab is not obligatory.

Peace, and my full support and love to all my Muslim Sisters, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:18pm
mmm...perhaps I'll bring my big thread over from the old forum where I researched extensively and brought things across and with nausheen's help and few others, got points clarified as to the hijab being ordered or not :).

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 10:14pm

Assalamu Alaikum Sisters,

 

I apologize for not responding sooner but I spent all day yesterday typing up a response to Sister Queenie’s comments.  I hope to be finished with it soon but I will probably use it to start an entirely new thread since it touches on many more issues concerning Muslimat than just the issue of hijab and veiling.  Sister Alwardah, thank you for your thoughtful post.  I always appreciate when posts are written thoughtfully and with great care instead of resorting to name calling and backbiting even when the response is not in line with my own thoughts about certain aspects of Islam.  However, it still disturbs me that you feel I am telling others not to wear hijab and accusing me of committing a sin by doing so.  I beg of you to read my position again more closely because I never tell anyone to not do something they feel is right for their deen.  And you are definitely correct in saying that the “choice” to wear the hijab is individual.  That is my position as well.  The problem is you don’t really believe it is a choice.  You believe the only true choice is to choose to wear it and that those who choose not to ware it are “committing a grave mistake" which is find because that is your opinion.  I accept that without having any ill or harsh feelings toward you.

 

I have never nor will I ever tell a Muslimah not to wear hijab or even a face niqab.  It is a logical fallacy to believe that just because someone believes something is not obligatory that it therefore implies that they believe it is obligatory for them to do the opposite.  In fact, I believe that in some cases it becomes obligatory for a Muslimah to wear hijab and even a niqab.  But I, also, believe that there are times in which it is obligatory for her not to wear it.  Now I know that might seem confusing to some, maybe even many; however, I believe if we look at this issue in the true light of what the Qur’an (Allah) is commanding of us, it is easy to see how it can be possible for a Muslimah at one time to be obligated to wear it, at other times to be obligated not to, and at others it not being an obligation either way.  How is that possible you may say?  Well, if we understand the Qur’an in its true light, we see that what is obligatory for Muslimat (and Muslims (men)) is to guard their modesty, which means that to wear or not to wear the hijab and/or niqab is contingent upon what is necessary to guard their modesty at any given place and/or time.  I know some will see this as being wishy-washy or only wearing hijab when it is suitable to the person; however, that is not the case at all. 

 

We all know that there are parts of Islam that are obligatory and some are not.  Some things that are obligatory are only obligatory at certain time of the year.  And some are only obligatory under certain conditions and situation.  Such is the case with fasting.  Fasting is obligatory but not every day.  Also in the case of salat, while we are traveling we are not obligated to prostrate and we are allowed to cut our prayers short.  (That is only two examples, but there are many more.)  So, it is not unreasonable to see that what I am saying is not so confusing after all. 

 

The one thing that I have a hard time understanding is why it is so easy for the Ummah to accept the beauty and simplicity of Islam when it comes to the actions of Muslims (men), but not with women?  I don’t see people banging the doors down of brothers who no longer wear turbans, who no longer wear beards or who wear jeans instead of the style of dress the prophet wore.  No one says anything when a brother goes to the mosque, pulls out a head cover from his pocket, puts it on his head for prayer and then sticks it back in his pocket afterward.  Did the Prophet (pbuh) do that?  I think not.  If the way the Prophet’s (pbuh) wives dressed was obligatory for all Muslimat simply because they (i.e., the Prophet’s wives) were commanded to dress that way, then why isn’t the way the Prophet (pbuh) dressed obligatory for all brothers even today?

 

Sister Alwardah, you quote the following hadith as a way to suggest that not only hajib is obligatory but the niqab might be as well:

"May Allah bestow His Mercy on the early emigrant women, when Allah revealed "and draw their veils all over their bosoms" – they tore their woolen dresses or waist-bindings cloth or apron and covered their heads and faces with those cut pieces of cloth." (Sahih al Bukhari No 4759)

I don’t deny that they did that, but why did they do it?  Was it obligatory?  Or were they only imitating the wives of the Prophet (pbuh)?  All that hadith tells us is that the women did that.  It doesn’t say it was obligatory that they do it.  It is only an account of what they did.  What was obligatory was to “draw their veils over their bosoms.”  And the reason for that was to protect their modesty and/or to keep them from being molested (annoyed) by the non-believers.  The veiling of the Prophet’s (pbuh) wives was a means to keep them completely hidden from the eyes of all others in order to protect the life of the Prophet (pbuh).  It is the same reason why no one was allowed to marry his wives after his death.  Do you see the difference?

 

Sister Alwardah, what I was saying is that the veiling of the Prophet’s (pbuh) wives was a means to screen them from others.  The means by which that was accomplished in different situations is a different issue.  At times it was a curtain, at others a cloak, and on at least one occasion it was the body of the Prophet (pbuh) that screened Aisha from the eyes of those not of the Prophet’s family.  The point is that the command was to screen them from those outside of the Prophet’s family and not simply a command to start wearing a niqab.  We all can ponder why that would have been so vital to Islam, but can we say that the same type of veiling was important for other Muslimat?  If so, why?  Why would we even dare to think that others of the Ummah were of the same level of importance as the Prophet (pbuh) and his family thereby requiring the same level of anonymity as they did?

 

Let me try to make my point a little clearer here.  The Prophet (pbuh) at one time wore a gold ring that was given to him as a gift and he used it to seal letters and messages he sent to others.  One day he found that others of the Ummah were imitating him so he threw the ring away and started wearing a simple silver one with his name on it; he used it to seal letters just as he had with the gold one.  Why do you think he threw the ring away when he saw that others of the Ummah were imitating him?  And what does that tell us?  He did it because he didn’t want the Ummah to spend their wealth on something that was really of no importance to Islam.  The ring was only important for the purpose of using it as a seal.  It also shows us that not everything which the Prophet (pbuh) did was necessary or obligatory for others in the Ummah to do.  Yes, the Qur’an said that we should follow the ways of the Prophet (pbuh) because he is a most excellent example (“a beautiful pattern of conduct”) for those whose hope lies with Allah (see Ayat 21 of Sura 33); however, this doesn’t mean we are commanded to do everything he did.  If so, we would still be riding camels and we surely would not be conversing on the internet.  

 

Why did Allah reveal the Qur’an to the Prophet (pbuh)?  What is the purpose of Islam?  And how do we fit into all of this?  The Qur’an, Islam, is the means (the way) by which we follow the path of Allah (the straight way) in order that we can be blessed with His Grace.  In other words, when we choose to live the life of a Muslim (and yes, it is a choice even for those born into Muslim families), we choose to strive to live a RIGHTEOUS life because a righteous life is the ONLY life which belongs to those that live the life of TRUTH.  Our duty as Muslims is to be righteous in the eyes of Allah (see Ayat 177 of Sura 2).  We are instructed in the Qur’an to be righteous and we are instructed on how to accomplish this.  We are told to turn to the Qur’an first, then to the Hadith and then to scholars.  So, when we feel we lack information or are confused in our understanding of the Qur’an regarding how to be righteous, we should turn to the life of the Prophet (phub) because we are told by Allah that in doing so we are provided with a “beautiful pattern of conduct.”  And if for some reason we still find ourselves perplexed, we should turn to scholars.  So, it’s the Qur’an, then the Hadith, then the scholars.  IN THAT ORDER.  It doesn’t mean to look at the Hadith first and then apply what you see there to the Qur’an.  Or to read the scholars first and then apply what they say to the Hadith and/or the Qur’an.  The Hadith and scholars should only be used to clear up points that we feel are still fuzzy.  But in truth, the Qur’an is complete with no fuzzy areas.  It is we humans that make it seem fuzzy as it states in the Qur’an: “…none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.” (see Ayat 7 of Sura 3) 

 

Sister Alwardah, I guess one of the major differences between you and I is that I don’t believe wearing hijab is a test nor is anything else that Allah commands me, through the Qur’an, to do as a means for me to be righteous.  I know a lot of Muslimat struggle with the issue of hijab for some time before they finally get to the point of wearing it, but when I first became a Muslimah, I didn’t question wearing hijab.  I simply thought that if Allah commanded it of me I would do it.   Sure there are tests in life as Allah promised us there would be but I simply didn’t consider that a test.  Now that I have studied the Qur’an and have studied the hadiths, I simply don’t believe that it is obligatory (at least not in all situations) to wear hijab.  I also don’t even feel that this is a “fuzzy” issue.  It only appears to be “fuzzy” because some have interpreted the Qur’an based on their biases about hijab.  That is, they believe the hijab is obligatory so they read that into the ayat.  That is precisely the problem with Muhsin Khan’s translation of the Qur’an.  He translates the Qur’an based upon more than just what the Arabic ayats themselves are saying.  A good example is the ayat that Sister Queenie quoted:

 

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful.”  (Ayat 59 of Sura 33)

What justification does he have for adding “(i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way)”?  Also, what is he justification for using the phrase “all over their bodies” when no other translators does so?   None, he simply does it because of his bias regarding the obligatory nature of “veiling” which was more than likely a mistake based upon his understanding of ayat 52 of that same sura along with certain hadiths.  The Qur’an is Perfect…it is only humans that cause it to be interpreted incorrectly.

 

Even if I am correct in my understanding of the nature of hijab, it doesn’t mean that you and other Muslimat should not wear it if you feel it helps you in strengthening your deen.  But I for one do not believe that it is necessarily what I put on the outside that is going to strengthen what is on the inside.  What strengthens my deen is the hijab which was placed on my heart by Allah when I did my Shahadah and my duty to Allah is to do that which continues to earn me the Grace of Allah which keeps it there.



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 20 November 2005 at 11:08pm

Assalamu Alaikum

 

Sister Ummziba, I truly feel sad that you feel that when I discuss the issue of the obligatory nature of hijab that I am “spreading” a lie because I truly would never intentionally spread a lie regarding any aspect of Islam.  It also saddens me that my view makes you feel even an iota of ill towards me…I truly love and appreciate you as a sister in Islam.  However, as much as it saddens me, I can’t say I agree with something I simply do not agree with.  If I did, I would be a hypocrite and that is something I cannot be for anyone.  That is not to say that I think those who believe hijab is obligatory are being hypocrites because I know they truly believe their position.

 

I also thank you for posting the piece by Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller on “Why Hijab?” however, I don’t agree with it.  The reason is that I truly believe it focuses on the wrong thing.  Even if the correct interpretation of Ayat 31 of Sura 24 is “…and let them drape their headcoverings over their bosoms…” it doesn’t make hijab obligatory.  But before I go on, I want to point out that I’m not sure at all that the the word “khumur” (headcovers) is actually used in this ayat.  Although I will be the first person to admit that I am no were close to understand Arabic, I have gone over my transliteration of that ayat with a fine two comb and have not found that work or any like it in that ayat. 

 

As I said before and I will say it again and again and again that it is not the issue of wearing hijab that is being commanded here.  It is the issue of covering one’s bosom that is….of protecting their private parts as a means to guard their modesty…to protect their chastity, their purity.  It is obvious that women in the day of the Prophet (pbuh) wore headcovers; it was a common part of their attire at the time.  However, the interpretation of the ayat that you give does not make it clear whether Muslimat were to use part of their headcover to also “drape”over their bosoms, or if it is commanded that they simply use what they normally used to cover their head with as a means to cover their bosoms.  However, what is explicit is that they were commanded to cover their bosoms.

 

I know that my understanding of the issue of hijab is controversial and if I am wrong I beg Allah for His Mercy…Ameen.  However, I am willing to sand in front of Allah regarding this issue and to take full responsibility for my thoughts and actions regarding this matter.  And I want to make it extremely clear that I am not asking or trying to persuade or convince any Muslimah to either agree with or to take up my position regarding the obligatory nature of hijab.

 

Allah Hafiz

 

PAZ,

Khadija 



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 21 November 2005 at 4:11am

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

Sister Khadjia Jazakallahu Khairan for your response- a very informative feedback.

 

Regarding my statement:

For any sister to deny and say that Hijab is not an obligation on women, may find herself committing a grave mistake. And to tell others not to wear the Hijab – she most definitely will be committing a sin. The choice to wear or not to wear the Hijab is individual.

This statement is not my opinion my dear sister but Fatawas issued by majority of the scholars. Yes I slipped up here I should have mentioned that initially.

 

The bottom line is that our individual researches has lead us to believe differently. Thus it will futile for me to respond to your various comments, we will only be going around in circles and may end up causing Fitnah. Auzo Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim.

 

Sometimes in our eagerness to do good, we normally end up causing more harm. May Allah Ta'ala forgive us our shortcomings Ameen!

 

I love all my Muslim sisters where ever they are on the face of this earth of Allah's Sake and for HIS SAKE alone.

 

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 



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“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 21 November 2005 at 5:58am

Assalamu alaikum,

Originally posted by Alwardah

The bottom line is that our individual researches has lead us to believe differently. Thus it will futile for me to respond to your various comments, we will only be going around in circles and may end up causing Fitnah. Auzo Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim.

 

Sometimes in our eagerness to do good, we normally end up causing more harm. May Allah Ta'ala forgive us our shortcomings Ameen!

 

I love all my Muslim sisters where ever they are on the face of this earth of Allah's Sake and for HIS SAKE alone.

Very well said, Sister.  I also wish to make it very clear, as I signed my last post, that I fully support and love all my Sisters in Islam.  We may be at different places in our understanding of Islam and what is expected of us, but we are all still of the same community.  Let us all work at learning more and more and keeping our feet on the straight path and our hearts full of love and worship to Allah.

May Allah help us all in our research, study and understanding of His great gifts to us - the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).  Over and above everything, there is a certainty - Allahu alam!

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 21 November 2005 at 6:04am

Bismillah,

JazzakAllahKhayr Sister Khadija for your effort and constancy.  You state succintly what I feel.  Thank you again.  You and I have strong opinions, and I am sure we will disagree on topics in the future.  However, I have no apprehension that you will quote a scholar as saying all who disagree with you are destined for punishment in hellfire.

Flower, I re-read my post and yours as you requested and fail to see any insult directed from me to you.

Umzibba and Al-Wardah, I reiterate my comment that in the postings you paste from others, scholars or authors, insults and threats are consistently present.  That is up to you, but it would be forthright to recognize this is present in your statements because you are posting information that you believe in, and those postings clearly state that people who believe as I do are hypocrites, non-practicers of their faith, weak in many other areas of faith, and/or doomed to hellfire.  I have asked sisters before to skip the step of quoting hellfire, but alas, I realize that it has not as yet had any effect.

The reality in this world is that many sisters do not wear hijab and many do.  We need to develop ways of talking to each other, instead of around or through or just making statements for the sake of it.  I want to work with you on issues related to strenghtening our sisterhood, our community.  We need mutual respect in order to do that, as well as true concern and care for our feelings and ideas and yes, lives.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 21 November 2005 at 6:16am

Assalamu alaikum,

Dear Sister Khadija (and any others who are feeling this way),

Please be certain that I do not hold any ill toward anyone (well, maybe a few world political leaders...).  Everyone is entitled to their opinions.  When something is so clear (in Arabic) in the Qur'an, it is always baffling why it becomes so muddled in translations.  Perhaps that is all a part of the trial of this life - Allahu alam.

Please do be certain that I hold neither animosity nor ill nor do I think less of or frown upon anyone of my Muslim Sisters.  Faith is a very personal thing.  When we bring it into a public forum, tensions can form.  The issue of hijab is one that just goes round and round.  I have no issue with Sisters who choose not to wear it.  I only have issue with those who would proclaim that it is not obligatory.  Qualifying that with "it is my own personal opinion", makes it just so, and that is fine.

I would just add that, this issue causes far too much fitnah - but, it is still important for us to examine it, study it and try to understand it.  That doesn't mean we are in the middle of a great big cat fight!  It means we all care so passionately that we can't help comment.

As for myself, I can't say I shall never comment on the issue again.  If all the ill felt toward me, all the hurt and all the nastiness (sometimes - I'm not being specific here) could be counterbalanced by just one Sister seeing the truth of the issue, it all becomes worth it.

But, for now, no more.  I love you all for the sake of Allah and I'd far rather exchange recipes or talk gardening than get all tangled in this mess.........

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: ASHI
Date Posted: 22 November 2005 at 9:32pm

ohh so much is happening here

well regd me...i sometimes wear hijab n sometimes dont....but i personally think that hijab is obligatory in Islam....

but i feel bad when girls/women wearing hijab do wrong things n cause much more humiliation 2 Islam n to Muslimat.....

like if u go 2 a movie theatre here in india....(n i am tellin india coz i dunno bout other countries) u will certainly see the hall filled with women in Burqas in majority! maybe some wud feel that they too have the right 2 see movies....n i really dunno wot 2 say bout this...if it is right or wrong....but i dont like it personally...

some girls start from their home wearing full hijab /niqab n once they r out...the hijab/niqab is gone with the wind! uhhh it really irritates me....

n wot is more imp is even while wearing hijab they dont seem 2 realize the main purpose behind wearing it....shudnt they realize that it is 2 protect their modesty that they r supposed 2 wear it...

i mean wots the point if they roam around with guys n display stupid actions even while wearing hijab....

or 4 that matter gossip nonsense even among a girls group....all the while wearing a hijab....it disgusts me 2 no end....

this is wot i get 2 see here....n i feel all this creates a bad name 4 the hijab than doing any gud 2 islam....

u know wot some of my non-muslim friends say...they say that "hijab/burqa of u muslim girls is gud 2 get away with identification when u r doing some thing wrong....", "we see so many girls in Burqa/hijab in parks with their boyfriends", "most of the girls in parks r in burqas".....

n i really feel insulted n it saddens me 2 no end about wot hijaab was truly meant 4 n wot it is being used 4....

i try 2 tell them that maybe they r not regular wearers of hijaab or even non-muslims but r wearing it 2 conceal their identity....which is wrong....



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"Expect great things from God, Attempt great things for God."
ASHI


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 22 November 2005 at 10:32pm
a good example of abolishing the grammar rules of sweet english language...


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 4:04am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

 

... and what is wrong in watching a movie in a burqa? Please explain.

I read recently that women in India are joinng gyms in a burqa, and I thought it was a good move. perhaps you would want to throw some light on this as well

Maa salaama



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: queenie
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 9:37am

Personally I don't see what is wrong with watching movies in a burqa either? If watching movies is not allowed in islam (which by the way I don't know if it is or isn't), then a person shouldn't be watching it regardless of whether they are in a burqa or not. The hijab is an issue on its own and shouldn't be confused with others. Like for example how is it OK for a muslim girl who does not wear a hijaab,to stand in public with a fag in her mouth. Yet when the hijaabi does it the sin or punishment is greater? Obviously I understand that it just looks wrong. But hey that still doesn't change the fact that both of them are equally wrong.

as for the girls in burqas roaming around with guys....how do you know they are not married? It beats me why a girl would go see her man all covered up? surely if its a date you'd like to show him your beauty not hide it? you should give people benefit of the doubt.

alhumdulillah i cannot relate to you ashi. as here in london more and more young muslim women are leaving their bad ways and are donning the hijab and actually changing their lifestyle, other muslims around should learn to be tolerant and realise that the change for the better is not gping to come overnight and people will still make mistakes in their process and insha allah learn from it. when we see someone doing somthing we feel is islamicallyt incorrect we should give naseeha to them, preferably in private and without embarassing the. but whatever action we take i don't think we should judge others because we should fear allah as islam is a journey and we shouldn't think oh just because i'm practising today i'll be practising my religion tommorow. you never know the people you slander today may be raised at a higher level than yourself in allahs eyes tommorow.



Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 10:56am

As-Salaam Alaikum sisters,

Queenie I hear you.  Good point. 

Hakeema



Posted By: ASHI
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 8:41pm

Originally posted by Suleyman

a good example of abolishing the grammar rules of sweet english language...

 

well do i have 2 be gramatically correct evrytime i post a msg here?? n how does it matter as long as people here understand wot i am trying 2 say...isnt it...???

n by the way none of the sisters has any prob with my lang....n i think thats more than enough...



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"Expect great things from God, Attempt great things for God."
ASHI


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 8:54pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Originally posted by ASHI

Originally posted by Suleyman

a good example of abolishing the grammar rules of sweet english language...

 

well do i have 2 be gramatically correct evrytime i post a msg here?? n how does it matter as long as people here understand wot i am trying 2 say...isnt it...???

n by the way none of the sisters has any prob with my lang....n i think thats more than enough...

Umm... I guess the unusual thing with your posts is spellings (numerical transformation of words) not grammer. But its no big deal, nor does anyone intend to make  any of it - Not even Suleyman, we're sure.

btw, grammatical mistakes can cause  havoc, as the message gets crooked and people sometimes misunderstand.

The topic however is veil, not english grammar, so lets stay on track.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: ASHI
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

 

... and what is wrong in watching a movie in a burqa? Please explain.

I read recently that women in India are joinng gyms in a burqa, and I thought it was a good move. perhaps you would want to throw some light on this as well

Maa salaama

 

first of all its my personal opinion...

well ofcourse am more than happy 2 know that women r even joining a gym in a burqa...coz it is 4 their health benefit that they have joined it while simultaneously following Islamic rules.....actually kudos 2 them

but wot r they doing in a theatre?? watching movies..... majority of the movies r so stupid these days...

n i am referring 2 women who come 2 watch the regular masala (commercial) movies.....with song n dance sequences etc etc etc....

yes i dont like it when they come 2 do a wrong thing clad in hijaab....y spoil the name of hijaab....??? dont u think people have the opinion that ladies clad in a burqa r conservative respectable Muslim women (n i dont mean 2 say that if women dont wear hijaab they r not conservative respectable Muslim women, its just that in hijaab they r more identifiable as Muslims) n when they come 2 watch such movies while other men who r strangers also watch with them.....

well i just dont like the idea....

 

 

 



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"Expect great things from God, Attempt great things for God."
ASHI


Posted By: ASHI
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Originally posted by ASHI

Originally posted by Suleyman

a good example of abolishing the grammar rules of sweet english language...

 

well do i have 2 be gramatically correct evrytime i post a msg here?? n how does it matter as long as people here understand wot i am trying 2 say...isnt it...???

n by the way none of the sisters has any prob with my lang....n i think thats more than enough...

Umm... I guess the unusual thing with your posts is spellings (numerical transformation of words) not grammer. But its no big deal, nor does anyone intend to make  any of it - Not even Suleyman, we're sure.

btw, grammatical mistakes can cause  havoc, as the message gets crooked and people sometimes misunderstand.

The topic however is veil, not english grammar, so lets stay on track.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

"The topic however is veil, not english grammar, so lets stay on track"

well said Nausheen...

yes thers nothing really wrong with my grammar..n it can never be alhamdulillah...

its just that i use short forms/substitutes 4 some words 2 type quickly as i lack time n i type 4 IC while am at my job at the same time....so.....



-------------
"Expect great things from God, Attempt great things for God."
ASHI


Posted By: ASHI
Date Posted: 23 November 2005 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by queenie

Personally I don't see what is wrong with watching movies in a burqa either? If watching movies is not allowed in islam (which by the way I don't know if it is or isn't), then a person shouldn't be watching it regardless of whether they are in a burqa or not. The hijab is an issue on its own and shouldn't be confused with others. Like for example how is it OK for a muslim girl who does not wear a hijaab,to stand in public with a fag in her mouth. Yet when the hijaabi does it the sin or punishment is greater? Obviously I understand that it just looks wrong. But hey that still doesn't change the fact that both of them are equally wrong.

as for the girls in burqas roaming around with guys....how do you know they are not married? It beats me why a girl would go see her man all covered up? surely if its a date you'd like to show him your beauty not hide it? you should give people benefit of the doubt.

alhumdulillah i cannot relate to you ashi. as here in london more and more young muslim women are leaving their bad ways and are donning the hijab and actually changing their lifestyle, other muslims around should learn to be tolerant and realise that the change for the better is not gping to come overnight and people will still make mistakes in their process and insha allah learn from it. when we see someone doing somthing we feel is islamicallyt incorrect we should give naseeha to them, preferably in private and without embarassing the. but whatever action we take i don't think we should judge others because we should fear allah as islam is a journey and we shouldn't think oh just because i'm practising today i'll be practising my religion tommorow. you never know the people you slander today may be raised at a higher level than yourself in allahs eyes tommorow.

well ofcourse i dont mean 2 say that i am a saint n they r being devilish....nope....

i just mean 2 say that women r easily identifiable as Muslims when they wear Hijaab....n as u said it is equally wrong if a girl smokes(/drinks) without wearing or wearing a hijaab...yes true...but my point is that they bring greater dishonour 2 muslims by being easily recognisable....n imagine the chance it would give 2 critics of Islam 2 make a big issue out of these things....a girl in hijaab smoking/ drinking or roaming around.....dont u think it brings bad name 2 the hijaab....????

yes i have heard that in UK its all the more gud....i mean muslims r bcoming more aware of their imaan...n am really happy bout that....i hp every muslim including me awakes 2 their duties as muslimah...Aameen...

yes i know that people who i may feel r doing wrong may be dearer 2 Allah (swt) than i am....

but i dont mean 2 judge them n thats y i said that i "personally" dont like it....n 4get me advising them in public...i wudnt even do so privately...its just that here at IC i felt like speaking out wot i always felt ....thats it....i dont mean 2 judge any1 or say that i am right n they r wrong....but this is wot i feel.....

 



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"Expect great things from God, Attempt great things for God."
ASHI


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 24 November 2005 at 12:25am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Ashi you have a good point there. People should adorn the hijab from the heart first, rather than out of peer pressure from parents or society.

In this the people who force the young generation to wear it are more responsible than the girls themselves. It is the responsibility of parents and guardians to make them understand why they should wear the hijab.

I haven't been to UK, but in Canada there are plenty of students who cover their heads on a tight T-shirt and clinging jeans. That is indeed too bad, and I would hold their mothers more responsible than them. When the child is young, if parents choose dresses that are not modest, dont guide them how muslims should dress and behave in public, dont teach the difference between muslims and non-muslims with regard to the basic principles of life, we see such problems.

Along with the hijab - which is a peice of extra covering, a woman's behavior, her body language, and tone in her speech should be well calculated when she shows up in public. If not, the purpose of the hijab isn't complete.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: ASHI
Date Posted: 24 November 2005 at 3:18am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Ashi you have a good point there. People should adorn the hijab from the heart first, rather than out of peer pressure from parents or society.

In this the people who force the young generation to wear it are more responsible than the girls themselves. It is the responsibility of parents and guardians to make them understand why they should wear the hijab.

I haven't been to UK, but in Canada there are plenty of students who cover their heads on a tight T-shirt and clinging jeans. That is indeed too bad, and I would hold their mothers more responsible than them. When the child is young, if parents choose dresses that are not modest, dont guide them how muslims should dress and behave in public, dont teach the difference between muslims and non-muslims with regard to the basic principles of life, we see such problems.

Along with the hijab - which is a peice of extra covering, a woman's behavior, her body language, and tone in her speech should be well calculated when she shows up in public. If not, the purpose of the hijab isn't complete.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

 

yes exactly!!!!! this is wot i wanted 2 say...

thank u Nausheen 4 making my point more clear

JazaakAllah Khair!



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"Expect great things from God, Attempt great things for God."
ASHI


Posted By: queenie
Date Posted: 25 November 2005 at 7:03am
ashi i do understand what you are saying, it is obviously bad da'wah for hijaabis to be acting this way in public. but on the other hand i think its wrong to judge.


Posted By: firewall
Date Posted: 25 November 2005 at 7:51am
hi, hv anyone read Surah Al-'Asr?
for me, we should be brave to give advice & humble to receive it.
that's what Islam enjoins, i wish that's the norm in society.
if i do wrong, it's be unfortunate when ppl who knew that doesn't want to tell me. just so i know someone think that's wrong, & i can think for it.
to me, everybody must judge, but patiently & nicely.


Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 25 November 2005 at 1:43pm

Assalamu Alaikum,

I am not longer willing to discuss the issue of hijab here on IC becuase it appears that only those who beleive it is oblgatory have the right to speak out on this subject.  I know for a fact that there are many who hold my position, even some brothers hold this position.  Many who hold this position are not revert but rather born and raised in good muslim families.  There are even scholars who hold this position.  The simply truth is that some sisters are  made to feel as if they have no right to a voice in this matter.  So with respect to hijab, it is as if my lips are sewn shut her on IC.  With that said, I want to say this, it is wrong for anyone to say that it is not right to judge when they have done just that to some regarding the issue of hijab.  It comes across as hypocritical when someone says that it is not okay to judge someone if she is wearing hijab...to give her the benefit of the doubt even if she may be using it as a way to cover her idenity and not for pious reason; however, if she is not wearing hijab, it's okay to judge her and tell her she is risking hellfire for not wearing it.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ,

Khadija



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: firewall
Date Posted: 25 November 2005 at 4:19pm
salam,

well how'd ppl know she's doing it " not for pious reason"? if she is, & there's proof of it, of course it's wrong. but then, how do you even judge her intentions of wearing a hijab -- it's in the heart, u can't see it. unless proven, how can u say she's with ill-intentions? so how do u expect us to judge before it is obvious?

but with hijabs, ppl can see it, it's obvious. to my view, it's obligatory -- so i when see someone not meeting that obligation, of course i must judge that's not right. talking about hypocrisy, the only hipocritical thing is when me -- a hijab wearer --  say it's okay to drop ur scarf, when in fact,  i myself, don't drop my scarf.

the hypocrisy is when non hijabi girls ecpect hijabi girls to say it's okay to drop our hijab. they know themselves we don't drop our hijab. they're asking us to condone not wearing hijab, is asking us to drop our hijab -- i'm sorry sister, we just can't. i don't know how else to tell  u.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 25 November 2005 at 5:00pm

I'm with Khadija

And she has a point about the judging, right thru this thread people say they are not judging and yet still sit there and judge.

I'm going to put my five cents worth, but it'll probably be no value .

Whether its obligatory to do so or not, although thru my reasearch sometime ago have come to the conclusion it is but I still have my views about it. But anyway, Some of who adjorn the hijab are not necessarily pious. And some of those who do not adjorn the hijab can be very pious. And this does get said but its obviously of no importance but the girl who seems to wear hijab, because if it matters then there would not be so much....outcry.

As I meantioned before, it is what is in your heart, your intentions and God alone only knows that and people here know that and yet still....go against it.

If anyone of you actually believe that its your intentions and what is inside of a person that should truly be judged, then none of you should not go on the path and be judgemental about the outward appearence of a person/s , for which you do not know anything about!

You see a picture of a girl in pants and short top or short skirt and top and high heels and you judge automatically that girl is in the wrong, but truly what do you know about the person, I see pictures everyday and I'm sure you all here do to. I know pictures suppose to speak a thousand words and its a physical evidence but I have come to believe that a picture does not tell the whole story about a person or what they are going through, Do you know ??

To judge someone by there outter appearence, IS NOT THE FULL STORY ABOUT THE PERSON THEMSELVES OR THEIR FAITH AND HOW MUCH PIOUS THEY ARE. UNLESS YOU KNOW THE PERSON VERY WELL THEN I SUGGEST YOU STOP IT!

To think that the girl across the street is going to hell fire because she does not wear hijab is well unreligious in my view, (even if you think she is wrong and that it is obigaatory to do so) YOU do not know the person, or why they have not put on hijab. And yet, you may see another girl adjorn the hijab and think she is a good muslima, how do you that she is a good muslima and pious?? What because this girl wears the hijab while the other doesn't?? oh my! talk about sterotypical!  

There is a girl at the moment here in the news, she is muslim and yet she does not wear the veil and yet the outcry, oh my the outcry is so ridicules, I can't believe it, the muslim community has told her to denouce the religion because she isn't wearing the 'so called' dress code, (while an iman has told them not to judge her) heck, that girl has been to hell and back for what happened, her ordeal is something that you wouldn't want to go thru and yet before she can have some breathing space and gather herself and for a moment that she wasn't covering herself all hell breaks lose and the mention oh she's not muslims, she is a fake, she is not doing islam justice, boy! oh judgemental!!

And you know what drives me insane and I could scream! is this outcry about the covering and telling one she is not muslim, she must denouce islam and all that, man WHERE IS THE SO CALLED OUTCRY TO THOSE MUSLIM TERORISTS WHO TRULY DO NO JUSTICE TO ISLAM AND ARE WRONG, WHERE'S IS THE DAMN OUTCRY SHOUTING FOR THAT!! NO WHERE !!! AND YET WHEN IT COMES TO CLOTHING, THE DRESS CODE ITS ANOTHER STORY! THAT TO ME IS BEING HIPOCRITICAL, ONE IS FAR MORE DAMAGING TO ISLAM AND WHILE THE PERSON WEARING NON DRESS CODE/VEIL IS NOT!

If someone chooses to speak that they don't wear the veil despite it being wrong, so be it, it's got nothing to do with you!

And please if some of you truly think those are going to hellfire, bring on the evidence from qu'ran and hadiths. Because I think its a horrible tactic to use! not to mention a guilt trip!

And while I'm at it, Muslims are NOT the only people who wear a headscarf, its fruitless to want to see the girl/s down the street wear a veil so you can judge her and think she is wrong.

Nor are the religious of other groups who wear a veil of some sort the only people to wear a scarf/veil. 

It is just fruitless!!

Heck my mother used wear a scarf, I have pictures and she's not muslim or religious, she is just a person and my great grand mother an elderly european woman, used to wear a scarf on her head! and so do many other european and other elderly women who are not religious or muslim! And some younger people to.

To say that wearing a hijab is part of the muslim identity, and while that is a little true is still an incorrect view!  



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 25 November 2005 at 5:20pm

Originally posted by firewall

salam,

how can u say she's with ill-intentions? so how do u expect us to judge before it is obvious?

You don't!

You don't judge!

Wearing something does not denote if one is pious or not.

You wear hijab, how can I tell that you are pious or pious enough?? The answer is I don't know, that's simple!, I don't know you so how can I can judge you if you have ill intentions? How can I judge you down the street?

Why is this judging such a big thing? Why do you want to judge? That is something I don't understand! It's such a big issue with muslims.


but with hijabs, ppl can see it, it's obvious. to my view, it's obligatory -- so i when see someone not meeting that obligation, of course i must judge that's not right. talking about hypocrisy, the only hipocritical thing is when me -- a hijab wearer --  say it's okay to drop ur scarf, when in fact,  i myself, don't drop my scarf.

And yet, you still do not know. So some girls are doing the obligatory thing by wearing the hijab and you see that as right so you don't judge her ?? Just because she seems to be doing the right thing does not tell if she is pious. That is hipocritical, you want to judge a muslima for not wearing hijab, not following the obligatory duty and not a muslima that you can see clearly that she is wearing hijab so automatical she gets good points and not judged! wow!

The outter surface is all you care about! and the truth of the matter is the surface is not all what it seems. It's just half of the story!



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: queenie
Date Posted: 26 November 2005 at 6:51am

I agree with firewall. For us to wear hijab on the one hand and on the other hand say its not obligatory is hypocritical.

It is an obligation to Allah, that is all I think. I don't think wearing a hijab makes some one more pious. But In general speaking from first hand experience, wearing a hijaab myself I have become a better muslimah than I was before. In no way am I saying that I am perfect, or more pious than anyone else. But I have improved. So yes I do think that IN GENERAL it does change a woman for the better. (But this is in general and not all the time). Every individual thinks differently and leads a different life. Some girls say "Oh I will change myself first then put the hijab on...because I don't want to give it a bad name".  where as I did the opposite, I put the hijab on because for me that was a start and the change in my lifestyle slowly and gradually followed. so every one has a different way of starting out, but no one denies the fact that it is an obligation. I feel it is one good action and it causes more good to actions to follow. And as for the sisters that say that there are scholars that say it is not obligation. This is all wrell enough you making this bizarre statement but then If this is true then tell us Who are these scholars? what are their names? where did they study? what did they study?  Because walahi I have never heard A SCHOLAR say its not an obligation for a woman to wear hijab. If i did i think I'd pass out due to the shock! Can you imagine it if your local maulana started walking around with his wife who does not wear a hijab? In all honesty i think people are trying to reform islam. These people need to realise that this deen of ours is perfect! it does not need to be changed and neither will this reformation be successful.



Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 28 November 2005 at 1:20am

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Sisters

 

Sori I could not respond earlier, as I was away taking care of a sick relative and did not have internet access.

 

Firstly I want to point out that I don't have any ill-feelings towards any sisters and if anyone was hurt because of what I have written. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive me and ease their pain and unite our hearts once again. Ameen!

 

This topic of Hijab/Niqab always ends up emotionally for most of us.

 

During the time when I was convinced that Hijab was NOT an obligation. I use to post Ayat from the Glorious Qur'an, my favorite was the first 11 Ayat for Surah Al-Mu'minun (23) where Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala characterizes the believer "Successful indeed are the believers" till "Who shall inherit the Firdaus, they shall dwell therein forever." To enter Paradise, all I had to do was be a believer as Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala had described in these Ayat. After further research and studying I discovered that Hijab is an obligation and today I even feel Niqab is an obligation and by not wearing the Niqab, I am sinning. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala open my heart to wear the Niqab soon Ameen!

 

Wearing or not wearing the Hijab/Niqab is an individual matter. Wearing the Hijab, does not make one more pious than the one not wearing it. All our deeds are based on our intentions. But it becomes incumbent upon us, as Muslimah to guide each other, in areas where we find others erring. Alhamdulillah through the constant persistent of a very dear sister, (who has now left this world after suffering for many years – May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala shower His Mercy upon her) I was led to the truth and desire for my dear sisters the same. True Guidance only comes from Allah, we can only try.

 

This is an issue that will never go away, and knowing me, I will most probably comment on it from time to time when it appears. Sometimes I wish I could just keep quiet but I know I cannot. A few years back I felt very strongly that Hijab is not an obligation and today I feel very strongly that it is an obligation and Niqab too. I also felt that Iman (faith) was in the heart and how I dressed did not matter.  How do we measure modesty? What may be modest in one culture may be very indecent in another? So where do we draw the line, what yardstick do we use? We look at the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah for guidance. Insha Allah we will find our answers there.

 

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala purify our hearts, unite our efforts, forgive us our sins and let the last of our deeds be the best. Ameen!

 

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu



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“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 November 2005 at 4:47am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

I dont know what has been said by who but i see some people saying the hijab ie headscarf is not wajib/obligatory in Islam. Every person has the right to follow what they believe and no person has the right to force there views on other or enforce it. But no person has the right to speak for islam and what is in our religion with any authority except for our scholars. Many Muslims in the west have no connection to traditional islam  or its authority this is becouse they live in a un islamic scociety and have no real contact with a muslim scociety.

You will not find a ruling from any traditional scholar saying the hijab is not obligatory at any time in islams history from the time of the prophet untill now, for any person who hasnt lost touch with there islamic roots and heratige and where right guidance is they will realise this is proper islam and any one following a new invented opinion in this decade is deviating from the norm of islamic society and what our prophet commanded. There is no evidence that the hijab is not wajib the command is found in the Quran and any operson who knows arabic and the tafsir of those ayat will know this.

There are many deviated people in this world who prefer there own opinions to those whom allah himself has given knowledge and they spread there message with all sincerity.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 28 November 2005 at 10:23am

I think there are two aspects to these threads:

 

  1. Is Hijab a required part of the dress code for Moslem women?

 

  1. The affects of society/peer pressure.

 

I cannot answer the first one. I am not scholar.  It seems that often folks are out to ‘prove a point’.  Assuming hijab is required, then one gets to the question of society and peer pressure.   Clearly that these types of decisions must come from the heart or what is the point?  If I do it to please others or to have people stop ‘harassing’ me about it what good is that doing? I am not ultimately doing it for Allah.  I know what is inside of me. That is not for others to judge. If you are comfortable with it that is great, if another woman is not then so be it. The more people go on and on about it the less likely they will look to you for support.  And in your heart are you trying to help me or make yourself feel better?

 

For some people wearing hijab is a very difficult decision. It seems for many women.  Women need to help each other and leave the ‘judging’ to Allah.  To feel it is our place to judge others is to infer that we are better then any other person. If so, one better pray that Allah agrees.  Humbleness is important.

 

I guess its like when I sometimes see someone I start putting them into a box in my mind.. even unconsciously. I work to stop this as people are not always neatly packaged.

 

True piety is ultimately in the heart.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 28 November 2005 at 6:04pm

If people here are interested in the discussion I had in the old forum with Nausheen mostly helping me and talk thru what is and what isn't, then I will bring it across to this forum, as soon as I figure out what is the best way

Anybody interested ?



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 29 November 2005 at 8:09am

As Salamu Alaikum

Yes I would be interested with that discussion because like I pointed out before, at one stage of my life I strongly believed Hijab was not an obligation and today I believe the opposite.

Maybe we can get some good points, when we discussion this issue from your research. This is an issue that will go on till eternity.

Thanks

Salams



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“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 29 November 2005 at 4:46pm

Bismillah,

I agree that sisters in hijab or burqa should do what they think is right for them.  We are all human.  So what if they make a mistake Islamically in their hijab or burqa as opposed to me who doesn't wear that anymore?  Doesn't Allah, SWT, see us all for who we are and what we believe and what we are able to do and what we do or don't do? 

No, I absolutely don't think that hijabi sisters should be held to a higher or lower standard of behavior than non-hijabi ones, although I clearly understand your point of view.  People know that I am a Muslim woman and mom in my community.  So they would be surprised if they saw me at a bar, for example.  A movie probably wouldn't surprise them.  I went to one today with my kid, which is an odd thing, but it was a school assignment, and surprisingly, a great film for Muslims to watch called:  Good Night and Good Luck.

 



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 29 November 2005 at 6:12pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Assalamu alaikum

You are corect herjihad Allah does see you for who you are but can you use that as an excuse not to pray 5 times a day or not fast no, so how does it apply to the hijab. Both remain commands of Allah, he only asks us to do something becouse it is for our own benefit.

The Hijab is important becouse it not only is for your benefit but for those of others, you are hiding your beauty from others which promotes the Quality of modesty in you and you dont have to face any tests or whispers from shaytan about vanity, for this Allah rewards you by strengthening your charachter and for following his command, this is on a personnel level. The hijab also stops men from staring at your beauty and you are not accountable for putting desire in a mans heart beyond what he is obliged to control himself with.

so you gain a double reward for your personnel obligation to Allah as well as not spreading fitnah with the power Allah gave you over men and both are done irespective of you noticing it, or effort on your part, since you dont know what is in peoples hearts and at what time you have done good by simply wearing it.

On the other hand if you are the cause of desire in a mans heart beyond what he is obliged to control himself then part of the blame is yours and you will see it on the day sister and this also is done without you noticing it as you do not know what is in a persons heart or what they think.

In reality the Hijab is a personnel obligation as well as a communal one.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 29 November 2005 at 6:16pm

Rami, since you are a man and are not as vulnerable as a woman, I think your opinion does not mean as much. Yes Hijab is important but you cannot deny in a non muslim country it attracts more attention to a woman than not wearing it. Is this what you want your sisters to endure? Constant stares, remarks, questions, even harassment. Thanks brother, our brothers are allways ready to throw us under the bus!!!



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You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 29 November 2005 at 6:49pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Jenni as your are not a scholar your opinion means nothing when it comes to what is haram and halal in islam, you are free to follow what you like just dont spread it to other people under the flag of islam, this is nothing but sexist bigotry.

The first generations of muslims endured more than a few stairs yet they kept to there faith and what allah commanded them to do.



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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 29 November 2005 at 7:10pm
I am saying what is halal or haram and have never used those words, I also see the importance of wearing a hijab. I am stating a fact not an opinion. The fact is that I wore Hijab and felt constant stares, I was approched by Muslims and non Muslims who liked to ask me questions, since I am very white they are all curious.  I had people make comments and even someone follow me in the car with my kids. My husband travels so I am often alone with young kids. Now hear this Rami, if I move to a Muslim country I would love to wear a Chador. Even in my husbands homeland hardly any of his friends wives wear it and only one woman in his family. However I would love to wear it and feel good about it because it would fulfill its purpose and keep the native men(in pakistan) that have no idea what lowering thier gaze from staring at me so much and I would feel much more modest. I agree that hijab is an obligation, however I think there are exceptions for some of us sisters who are in situations where we don't feel safe. And I don't beleive I have to be a missionary and wear Hijab to advertise I am muslim and have people ask me lots of questions. Right now I am trying to raise good kids and keep my family safe. Maybe people like you can do the speaking and missionary work for us!!!!

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You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 29 November 2005 at 7:21pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Women have to understand something as it seems they are making the same mistake, your personnel experiances do not change the law or commands of Allah. The black and white truth is that the hijab is obligatory now seperate this from your perssonel expiriance and discuss the issue from there.

The discussion is, is the hijab Obligatory i commented on that. A person should first make clear what Allah has commanded us then say there are dispensations becouse of this and this situation. not simply say it should not be worn becouse of this and this situation.

read what i said in other posts and you will see you have said exactly what i did elsewhere, that the hijab is obligatory but there are diepensations such as physical danger where it would be permited to take it of with the intention of avoiding this real harm.

But i suggest you not make such comments a blanket statment as your situation is only for you and other people live elsehwere and do not have the same experiance as you so they have no excuse.

If a person does not like the hijab and does not wear it becouse of that but uses the dispensation you mentioned than this is blameworthy on there part, they can not hide anything from allah as he knows what is in our hearts.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 29 November 2005 at 7:54pm
Rami- I agree and I honestly wish in my heart I could be brave and wear a chador all the time. I have no desire to appear modern, or beautiful to strangers out in public. In fact I really want people to leave me alone. I hope inshalla in the future we will move away from here and I can dress the way that is right. I don't feel at home here anymore anyway, hijab or not. Peace

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You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 30 November 2005 at 4:59am
Originally posted by Alwardah

As Salamu Alaikum

Yes I would be interested with that discussion because like I pointed out before, at one stage of my life I strongly believed Hijab was not an obligation and today I believe the opposite.

Maybe we can get some good points, when we discussion this issue from your research.

Ok, I see what I can do on the weekend

This is an issue that will go on till eternity.

 me too .



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 30 November 2005 at 4:59am

Assalamu alaikum,

In this statement, Jenni, you certainly hit the very core of an important issue:

Originally posted by Jenni

I don't feel at home here anymore anyway, hijab or not.

I have been feeling the very same way myself for quite some time now - like a fish out of water.  People do need to realize that it is extremely hard to live your life as a Muslim in a non-Muslim country - and it is a thousand times harder for a woman in hijab.  And several thousand times harder for those without a Muslim community nearby.

May our dear Merciful Allah give all the Muslims in non-Muslim countries much courage and strength and much patience.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: queenie
Date Posted: 30 November 2005 at 5:27am

I think it is wrong to say a mans opinion does not mean much on issues related to islam. The prophet (saw) was a man and had opinions on womens issues. Also most of our scholars who us women look to for rulings and fatwas are men. Therefore gender does not play an issue for me. there is no sexism in islam. A fact is a fact, whether its uttered from a mans mouth or a womans. Hijab is an islamic obligation. That is a fact. whether one wears it or not is their own choice and only allah can judge them. personally i find it amazing that the more and more i hear hijab as an issue in the media, in discussions and the more it is attacked. i see the total opposite effect. everywhere i look the hijab is becoming more and more visible by the day masha allah. i agree with jenni when she says that if one feels unsafe the ruling on hijab changes. i have heard this from dr jamal badawi. but must stress that he said "unsafe" means extreme circumstances where you feel that actual physical harm will come to you because of it. also when the danger is clear a woman should put the hijaab back on. seems logical to me. but there are differences of opinion on the matter.



Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 30 November 2005 at 7:16am

Assalamu Alaikum

Brother Rami, you are right, there is no sexism in Islam; however, it thrives in the Ummah.  It was a major problem in the time of the Prophet (pbuh), one which the Qur'an commanded to be irradiated and that the Prophet (pbuh), to his dying breath, tired to instill into the hearts and minds of the Ummah.  I know I’m getting off topic so I will not say more.  Just wanted to point out that you are right on the one hand, but on the other, if your reference to “Islam” means the Ummah, then you are grossly in error.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ

Khadija 



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: Jenni
Date Posted: 30 November 2005 at 7:18am
Queenie, I am saying on this issue a man does not know what it feels like to wear it or be a woman. It is sort of like a man giving you pregnancy advice. It is nothing against men or cerntianly has nothing to do with the prophets opinion. I was just referring to Rami and how men make stern comments against us sisters when they don't have to live as women or mothers or for some sisters single mothers. They DON'T usually understand the suffering that women in the world go through otherwise why are women in the world and in many Muslim countries in SUCH A TERRIBLE STATE??????

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You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 30 November 2005 at 8:00am

Bismillah,

Ameen Jenni and Khadija!



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 01 December 2005 at 12:49am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Jenni why do i need to know what it feels like to be able to Quote what Allah and his messenger have commanded. Allah created you and he certainly knows you better than your self, remember Allah and his messeger are the criteria for what is right and wrong not us men or women i say something islamicly wrong please by all means i would love it if you tell me to shut up i am not trying to misguide anyone.

I certainly know what harship feels like, what rejections feels like, what being looked down upon feels like are you feeling something i havnt felt beffore?

i also understand that women feel these things more intensly than men, Allah rewards you for every second of hardship you go through and most certainly according to the intensity of the strugle.

i have a beard and i am an arab living in the west would you prefer walking around with a beard


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.



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