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WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ 911 Evidence Suppressed

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Category: Politics
Forum Name: Current Events
Forum Discription: Current Events
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2840
Printed Date: 24 April 2014 at 12:49pm


Topic: WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ 911 Evidence Suppressed
Posted By: rami
Subject: WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ 911 Evidence Suppressed
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 7:57am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem


WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ: An American hero A 20-year employee at one of the World Trade Center buildings hit on September 11, 2001, Rodriguez risked his life in saving many people and was honored for his heroism. And then Rodriguez testified in closed session to the official 9-11 commission (Kean-Zelikow), but his story of what happened that day the explosions in the sub-basements seconds before the plane hit, was suppressed by those whose task it is to cover-up what really happened. Special thanks to INNWorld Report for airing Rodriquez crucial evidence that exposes the Bush administrations lies. (14 min. INNWorldreport.net 646-618-8223 or ReOpen911.org (call for a free DVD: 800 630-9912)
14min 11meg quicktime file 8.6meg winmedia file - thanks to http://www.archive.org/details/inn - archive.org

http://www.archive.org/download/inn/innrodriguesisdnsept05snow.wmv"> click to play media
http://www.archive.org/download/inn/innrodriguesisdnsept05snow.wmv - Windows Media (8.6 MB)
http://www.archive.org/download/inn/innrodriguesisdnsept05snowshoe.mov - QuickTime (11 MB)

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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.



Replies:
Posted By: Shamil
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 8:24am

Clearly demonstrates the US government is a lying, criminal organization. Jazakallah Khairun, akhi.

What's really funny is the part where he mentions that in Europe there is freedom of information and therefore the people there all know the US is lying. It seems the only ones who still believe the US government's story are the fools who voted them in.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 8:34am
This does not 'demonstrate' anything other than this man may have heard something from the basement on a day when the buildings were under great stress - did it ever occur to you that there were huge exposions going on in above floors and that there are elevator shafts?

-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 8:38am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

It would be nice if you did not ignore part of his testimony when coming up with your own conclusions.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 9:18am

Its nice that 40,000 people worked at the WTC and only ONE comes up with hearing explosions.  Not to mention the hundreds of cameras trained on the buildings and people going in and out before the collapse and only ONE man is saying Bomb.  I am starting to get annoyed with the constant Barage of BULL**** posted by some of you on these boards. 

THE USA IS FALLIBLE, but not the conspiracy monger you'd all like to believe.  Here's news flash!

19 MUSLIMS killed 3,000 people...get it through your thick skulls....not ever muslim is a saint nor is every christian. 

Is the War in Iraq right....I dont' think so....Does the US have alterior motives?  Oils a big one, but please....stop trying to rewrite history because you hate a country. 

Frankly I'm getting sick of seeing post after post after post of utter crap that has no proof, no validity and no basis in fact. 

Go ahead and keep swearing to lies, but in the end, there are 19 men buring in Hell and I hope their torments are hideous.



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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 9:20am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

FBI Tells 911 Rescue Worker to 'Shut Up' Over Finding Airplane "Black Boxes."
Two ground zero workers go public about finding cockpit and flight data recorders from Flight 11 and 175. Government claims 'black boxes' from the doomed 911 flights were never found. 911 Commission ignores information and fails to interview rescue workers.
4 Dec 2004

By Greg Szymanski

A 911 rescue worker said this week he was told by FBI agents to "keep his
mouth shut" about one of the "black boxes" found at ground zero, contradicting
the official story that none of the flight and cockpit data recorders were ever
recovered in the WTC wreckage.

Honorary firefighter Mike Bellone claims he was approached by unknown bureau
agents a short time after he and his partner Nicholas DeMasi, a retired New
York firefighter, found three of the four "black boxes" among the WTC rubble
before January 2002.

The pair first claimed to find the data recorders in an August 2003 book
entitled "Behind The Scene: Ground Zero" when DeMasi said the "black boxes" were
found while he traversed ground zero in his ATV with three federal agents.

FBI and New York fire officials have denied ever finding the voice and data
recorders.

Now Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret.

"They confronted me and told me to not to say anything," recalls Bellone,
referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in
the back of DeMasi's ATV. "I said give me a good reason? When they couldn't, I
told them I wouldn't shut up about it.

"Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It's the truth and
Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have."

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 911 rescue workers to see the
black boxes. He said there were several other witnesses and knows first hand
they have been silenced by federal agents.

"I know two or three others saw what went down, but they are not talking,"
added Bellone. "They got to those guys after they talked to me. The only reason
I can figure they are trying to hide the truth is that the government knows it
screwed up and the recorders would prove it."

Asked to give names of the other witnesses, he said he wouldn't break a
fellow-worker's confidence, privacy and firm desire to remain anonymous.

"I can tell you this, though, it was all very strange. I worked on the
spaceship Columbia clean-up and you know when something important is found and when
something is not" he recalled, saying the day the 'black boxes' were secretly
carted away agents acted like "something big was going down."

Bellone also recalled never learning the FBI names as this type of personal
contact and information wasn't exchanged between the civilian workers and
government officials working side-by-side at ground zero.

"We worked together, but nobody knew their names," added Bellone. "They had
on their FBI jackets, but I'm sure I could pick them out of a line-up or
recognize their pictures."

The pair's  bombshell accusations blows a big hole in the official story as
well as the findings in the recent 911 Commission report. In Chapter 1,
footnote 76, there is the sole but definitive reference to the airline "black boxes":

"The CVR's and the FDR's (voice and flight data recorders) from American 11
and United 175 were not found."

Asked if DeMasi and Bellone were questioned or subpoenaed, Commission
spokesman Al Felzenberg said:

"I can't tell you now if he was is one of the 1,200 people we interviewed or
if the book was one of the countless ones we researched. We explored every
lead, but I will try to find out if we talked with him and get back to you"

However, Bellone said he and DeMasi never were contacted by Commission
members or asked to appear regarding their statements even though the book was
published well before the hearings commenced.

And it's amazing with a story of such importance that in over a year since
the book surfaced almost nobody else has called them either. It's hard to
imagine a story with such magnitude has not been thoroughly checked out unless the
mainstream press purposely ignored it.

"I have been contacted by only one newspaper reporter from the Philadelphia
Daily News. That's it," he said, referring to an October 2004 story by reporter
William Bunch, recapping DeMasi's book statements as well as the usual
official denials.

Those close to the 911 investigation said the recovery of the "black boxes"
is important, holding vital clues and leading to the truth of what really
happened on the morning of 911.

The cockpit voice recorder uses a pair of microphones to capture all cockpit
sounds for the last 30 minutes of a doomed flight. The flight date recorder is
also significant since it records altitude, heading and airspeed.

Both recorders are designed to withstand enormous impact and heat. National
Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials said they should have withstood the
conditions at the WTC.

And finding the boxes after a crash seems to be standard procedure, according
to the NTSB.

"It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back,' said NTSB
spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. "I can't remember another case which we did not recover
the recorders."

Bellone is retired and was made an honorary New York fireman for his efforts
after 911. DeMasi also recently retired from Engine Co. 261, nicknamed the
"Flaming Skulls," after serving a brief stint after 911 with the fire
department's marine unit.

Greg Szymanski




-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 9:26am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Angela i never claimed that the planes never existed. Actualy i havnt claimed anything.

As any rational thinking person would do is look at the evidence objectively and not reject simply becouse it does not fit your official story.

what is it im suposed to be claiming again that you feel the need to call people thick skulled?


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 9:44am

Rami,

I've been quite so far, but I cannot handle the stupid articles posted here over and over and over.  You're not the only guilty party.  Here's a little thought to wrap your Aussie head around.  Freedom of speech means, any idiot can set up a website and make himself a reporter and write anything he wants and there's nothing that can be done to refute the person, except another idiot getting online and writing his own interpretation while ignoring all the facts entirely.  Conspiracy theories and pure unadulterated crap in reporting is almost a Western tradition with places like the Enquirer and The Guardian. 

Who killed Kennedy, it was a consipracy from the Aliens working with the Russians and LBJ to put him in office so that we could go to Vietnam and make the weapons industries lots of money and test chemical agents on our soldiers to develop the super soldier to attack Russia and take over their super secret chicken hatcheries where they were breeding the Bird Flu that's going to kill us all.

This is about the credibility of all the stories you guys post here day after day. 

You talk about Logic and reason.....we'll there is an answer to that.  The simplest answer is the logical answer.  So what's the simplest answer to 9/11. 

A bunch of men got together and planned to bring the USA to its knees in a reign of terror.  Instead, they woke a Giant and now there is war.

http://www.pbase.com/april_sims/the_awakening">The Awakening



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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 10:09am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

the problem angela is it isnt any joe bloke who is talking but experts and people of credebility, your simple solution is in reality one that turns a blind eye in prefrence for peace of mind.

Many people in the field who used to work for the government or used to have dealings with them are talking. please dont dumb down the life experiances of people and experts.

Your argument is narrowed down to a few things i have posted which u easily dismiss as "idiots", while the issue is greater than that. They have more right to speak than you do, you disgrace there heroic acts by refering to them as such.

I dont care if the 19 hijackers were there or not i am talking about whether the American Goverbment was involved or if there is any cover up of the truth, that net is far wider and cant be ignored.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 10:30am

Rami,

What makes your experts, EXPERTS.  I was an international studies and politics major at a respected private college.  My professors worked with government.  I know and have met with Senator Rick Santorum, Former Gov Thomas Ridge, also Former Secretary of Homeland Security.  I have attended symposiums on Government, been to Washington DC.  I've attended sessions of Congress and written papers on American government.  Does that make me an Expert........not in the least?  My uncle is an analyst for the CIA, his brother was IN Afganistan and is now dying of a degenerative condition from an injury suffered to his nervous system. My brother, uncles, grandfather, grand uncles and cousins have all served in every branch save the Marines...does that make me an expert on war?  No. 

The authors you post are not respected experts on anything.  Joseph Wilson says the Bush administration exaggerated evidence to give justification for Iraq.  You know what...I'm okay with believing that.  The investigations are showing that the CIA screwed up their intelligence about the WMDs in Saddam's possession.  I'm okay with that.  Saying that the US blew up the basements of the Twin Towers is crap with no evidence or justification.  Same with the "black" boxes.  Let me tell you something about science.  Do you know how hot the flames were on the floors where the Jets collided?  They were so hot they melted the steel of the building.  The black boxes are not built to withstand that amount of heat.  Nor are they built to withstand the impact from 1,000s of tons of steel, concrete and other items being crushed down onto them.  The force of which the WTC collapse pulverized the very steel of the buildings and vaporized bodies.  And you expect me to believe that the boxes in those buildings survived and we don't know about it?  Logically it doesn't make sense....they simple weren't built for that kind of thing.  If I wanted to find a black box, it would be at the pentagon site or at Shanksville, nto the WTC.

Don't call those that intentionally are causing more conflict by fabricating stories to get attention.  Sensationalism is the name of the game in the Amercian Media.  I trust my relatives that are officers in the Army or in and out of Langley before I trust some internet posting. 

The problem I'm seeing with 75% of the stories posted here in Current Events is they are coming from disreputable sources and you are all so desparate to see the events of that day as being our fault that you automatically believe any crap you read. 

If you want to blame the US for 9/11, blame the policies that armed OBL during the Afganistan/Russian war.  If you want to blame the US for terrorism, blame our economic policies, our freedoms of religion and conscience.  But, do not be so stupid as to think that we would murder thousands of our own for an excuse to invade.

Frankly, the American mindset is far more dangerous than that Rami.  Here's why I KNOW that you're articles are crap.  The average american redneck doesn't need a reason to beat up on someone different.  That's good enough for them.  Iraq was only waiting for another catalyst to cause that war.  AQ and OBL gave us an reason to get off our lazy butts.  Frankly, if they hadn't done what they did.  The world would still be the same today as it was on 9/10.  Bush wasn't in office long enough for there to be the giant consipracy others are claiming.  He took office in January....8 months later, bang, the world changes.

8 months for the layers of your conspiracy onions to start wrapping itself up.  Wow, hell it took him 2 years to cook up enough crap to get the Iraqi war going.  I'm impressed with the brain power that only took 8 months to plan something like getting our enemies to grace us with an attack so we could have all our ducks in place to help them kill us.  Frankly, Rami, Bush is a moron.  He's not smart enough for that crap.



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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 10:37am

The Aliens did 9/11, US government and UFO's have a hidden adgenda



-------------


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 10:44am

Originally posted by ak_m_f


The Aliens did 9/11, US government and UFO's have a hidden adgenda

Thank you ak_m_f, I needed a good laugh today.  javascript add_smilie":ph43r:"'>ninja.gif



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Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

It would be nice if you did not ignore part of his testimony when coming up with your own conclusions.


Go for it Rami - what part of his testimony am I ignoring?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

FBI Tells 911 Rescue Worker to 'Shut Up' Over Finding Airplane "Black Boxes."
Two ground zero workers go public about finding cockpit and flight data recorders from Flight 11 and 175. Government claims 'black boxes' from the doomed 911 flights were never found. 911 Commission ignores information and fails to interview rescue workers.
4 Dec 2004

By Greg Szymanski

A 911 rescue worker said this week he was told by FBI agents to "keep his
mouth shut" about one of the "black boxes" found at ground zero, contradicting
the official story that none of the flight and cockpit data recorders were ever
recovered in the WTC wreckage.

Honorary firefighter Mike Bellone claims he was approached by unknown bureau
agents a short time after he and his partner Nicholas DeMasi, a retired New
York firefighter, found three of the four "black boxes" among the WTC rubble
before January 2002.

The pair first claimed to find the data recorders in an August 2003 book
entitled "Behind The Scene: Ground Zero" when DeMasi said the "black boxes" were
found while he traversed ground zero in his ATV with three federal agents.

FBI and New York fire officials have denied ever finding the voice and data
recorders.

Now Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret.

"They confronted me and told me to not to say anything," recalls Bellone,
referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in
the back of DeMasi's ATV. "I said give me a good reason? When they couldn't, I
told them I wouldn't shut up about it.

"Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It's the truth and
Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have."

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 911 rescue workers to see the
black boxes. He said there were several other witnesses and knows first hand
they have been silenced by federal agents.

"I know two or three others saw what went down, but they are not talking,"
added Bellone. "They got to those guys after they talked to me. The only reason
I can figure they are trying to hide the truth is that the government knows it
screwed up and the recorders would prove it."

Asked to give names of the other witnesses, he said he wouldn't break a
fellow-worker's confidence, privacy and firm desire to remain anonymous.

"I can tell you this, though, it was all very strange. I worked on the
spaceship Columbia clean-up and you know when something important is found and when
something is not" he recalled, saying the day the 'black boxes' were secretly
carted away agents acted like "something big was going down."

Bellone also recalled never learning the FBI names as this type of personal
contact and information wasn't exchanged between the civilian workers and
government officials working side-by-side at ground zero.

"We worked together, but nobody knew their names," added Bellone. "They had
on their FBI jackets, but I'm sure I could pick them out of a line-up or
recognize their pictures."

The pair's  bombshell accusations blows a big hole in the official story as
well as the findings in the recent 911 Commission report. In Chapter 1,
footnote 76, there is the sole but definitive reference to the airline "black boxes":

"The CVR's and the FDR's (voice and flight data recorders) from American 11
and United 175 were not found."

Asked if DeMasi and Bellone were questioned or subpoenaed, Commission
spokesman Al Felzenberg said:

"I can't tell you now if he was is one of the 1,200 people we interviewed or
if the book was one of the countless ones we researched. We explored every
lead, but I will try to find out if we talked with him and get back to you"

However, Bellone said he and DeMasi never were contacted by Commission
members or asked to appear regarding their statements even though the book was
published well before the hearings commenced.

And it's amazing with a story of such importance that in over a year since
the book surfaced almost nobody else has called them either. It's hard to
imagine a story with such magnitude has not been thoroughly checked out unless the
mainstream press purposely ignored it.

"I have been contacted by only one newspaper reporter from the Philadelphia
Daily News. That's it," he said, referring to an October 2004 story by reporter
William Bunch, recapping DeMasi's book statements as well as the usual
official denials.

Those close to the 911 investigation said the recovery of the "black boxes"
is important, holding vital clues and leading to the truth of what really
happened on the morning of 911.

The cockpit voice recorder uses a pair of microphones to capture all cockpit
sounds for the last 30 minutes of a doomed flight. The flight date recorder is
also significant since it records altitude, heading and airspeed.

Both recorders are designed to withstand enormous impact and heat. National
Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials said they should have withstood the
conditions at the WTC.

And finding the boxes after a crash seems to be standard procedure, according
to the NTSB.

"It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back,' said NTSB
spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. "I can't remember another case which we did not recover
the recorders."

Bellone is retired and was made an honorary New York fireman for his efforts
after 911. DeMasi also recently retired from Engine Co. 261, nicknamed the
"Flaming Skulls," after serving a brief stint after 911 with the fire
department's marine unit.

Greg Szymanski




Hmmm...what possible motive could two guys have to 'contradict the official story?'  Hmmmmmmm......$$$$$$..........

Not only that but we see that they claim one guy saw "one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi's ATV."

Well golly gee whillikers - those boxes weren't even burned by the 2,000 degree jet fuel explosion, they weren't even discolored...they had the two white stripes and the orange paint all in tact...

Not only that but I've heard many people say that there weren't ATVs roaming around Ground Zero like they claim...what gives!  I think we know...

Yeah right...


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 November 2005 at 6:47pm

those boxes weren't even burned by the 2,000 degree jet fuel explosion, they weren't even discolored...they had the two white stripes and the orange paint all in tact...

Yeah, that's what I was getting at with my sarcasm.  Simple Logic and common sense shows how impossible these stories are.  They are written to have just enough of the information people WANT to hear but not enough detail to give hard evidence or even enough evidence to have them discredited. 

Come on people.  You are smarter than this.  Most of you have educations and are bilingual.  Just because there is a byline, doesn't make it fact.



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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 03 November 2005 at 10:12am

This is why the article about the black box is crap.....here's the specifications for a black box.  The WTC  exceeded the maximum crush and temperature of the survivability of the Box.  As would have the fire in the pentagon.  As for Shanksville, well, that one they'd have to explain alot to me...or maybe its still buried in the field, there were little bits of plane and stuff all over the area.  Maybe we'll get lucky and when they build the memorial they'll find it if they havent' already.

The Black Box

Introduction:

In the recent years many air plane disasters are reported. This is due to either technical reasons or in cases of terrorism. The Investigation Officers rely on a device known as "The Black Box". This device is used to record the end moments of the crew conversation. This helps in giving the investigation party clue’s of what was the motive behind the disaster. The Black Box saves data about a little more than 30 minutes of conversation and any other audible cockpit noises. It is called the 'black box' due to the secret nature of what it contains. The information inside, especially in the cockpit voice recorder can be very personal and should not get into the wrong hands. For this reason, the information inside is encoded.

The color of the black box is Orange the reason for this color is obvious. It needs to be conspicuous so that it will be easy to find in any terrain. It has to clash with the color of the ocean, mountains, trees or deserts in order for easier location in the event of a crash. It is normal, now for black boxes to have tracing equipment in them. After any airplane accident the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) immediately begins searching for two devices. These devices are known as the airplanes "flight data recorder" (FDR) and "cockpit voice recorder" (CVR).

An Australian scientist Dr. David Warren was the man behind this invention. These devices or The Black Box as it is most commonly called is universally adopted as a tool for investigating and preventing airline disasters. He developed this device while he was investigating a series of the world's first jet-powered passenger aircraft, the Comet. He came to reason that the conversation from the crew could help give clues to what actually happened before the crash and come to a conclusion of how the crash actually happened. This came to the conclusion that a device of this sort would be needed on every flight. Sometime earlier Warren had been to an exhibition of technical equipment where he saw the worlds first miniaturized pocket recorder. This device was a German-made Minifon and it recorded sounds on a steel rod rather than a magnetic tape. Warren then installed this feature on his first black box the steel rod could withstand temperatures to red heat without loosing its information. With the advent of the Boeing 747 and the Douglas DC 10 which are sophisticated aircrafts, these planes needed second-generation of more complex recorders of whose separate functions are still in use today (Rizvi, 2001).

In the year 1965 the world's first FDR & CVR devices came into being. The FDR recorded the planes avionics systems, engines, airframes etc. & the CVR stored all sounds that are audible in the cockpit of the aircraft. Data from both these devices are stored on stacked memory boards inside the crash-survivable memory unit (CSMU) (Gresley, 1997).

The CSMU is a cylindrical compartment on the recorder. The stacked memory boards are about 1.75 inches tall. The length of time that can be stored on these is about 25 hours on the FDR and 3 hours on the CVR. These devices gather information from sensors that gather information such as acceleration, airspeed, altitude, flap settings, outside temperature, cabin temperature and pressure, engine performance and more. All of this data is then sent to the flight data acquisition unit (FDAU). This unit gathers all the information from all over the plane gives it to the right unit for it to store. This unit is generally found under the cockpit bay and is the manager for all the data process from the sensors to the black boxes i.e. it tells the system where to store the data that comes from the various sensors on board the aircraft (Gresley, 1997).

The boxes derive they power from one of the two power generator’s which produces its power from the planes engines. One generator is a 28-volt DC power source and the other is a 115-volt, 400-hertz (Hz) AC power source which are the standard power supplies in a planes engine. In almost every cockpit there are inbuilt microphones that are built to record the conversation in the cockpit. These microphones also track down various others noises such as switches being thrown or any knocks or thuds. All these microphones are connected to the cockpit voice recorder (CVR). These sounds are picked up by these microphones and are then transmitted to the CVR where it is digitized and stored. Another device which is in the cockpit is the associated control unit, which provides pre-amplification for audio going to the CVR. Here are the four positions of the four common microphones.

1. Pilot's headset

2. Co. Pilot's headset

3. Headset of a third crew member (if there is a third crew member)

4. Near the center of the cockpit, where it can pick up audio alerts and other sounds.

Most CVR's store the last 30 minutes of the sounds and conversation that are taken place in the cockpit. This is done by a continuous loop which moves a thirty minute tape around and round so that the old data is removed and the new data is written. Each recorder is fitted with an Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB) so that it can be easier to find when an accident happens over the water. This beacon is called a "pinger" is activated when it is submitted when it is submerged under water. It sends an acoustical sound on a 37.5Khz which can be detected by a special receiver. The beacon can transmit its beacon from about 14,000 feet below the surface.

Once the device is found it is taken to the NTSB headquarters in Washington where the data is processed. The processing is done by special sophisticated machines which converts the signals into an understandable format that can be understood by the "Investigating Officer" who helps the Safety Board in determining the probable cause of the accident. During the investigation a committee is formed consisting of members from the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board), FAA (federal Aviation Authority), operator of the aircraft, manufacturer of the airplane, and the pilot’s unison is formed. This committee makes a written transcript to be used in the investigation. The investigation procedure is one in which many complex time calculations are done. This is achieved by the different time zones that are allocated to the different time zones. This procedure determines where a sequence of events took place. The time sequence is applied to the transcript by the machine. More precise timings for critical events are obtained by using a digital spectrum analyzer. This transcript is made available to the public at the time of the safety board public hearing. The information gathered by these devices are held in the highest confidential manner. As the communication used in the cockpit is of a rather high nature. The congress has required that the Safety board not to release any part of the CVR tape recording. Because of this a high level security is maintained for the CVR and the transcripts.

Below is a specification of a CVR device that is most commonly used.

Time recorded 30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units

Number of channels 4

Impact tolerance 3400 Gs /6.5ms

Fire resistance 1100 deg C /30 min

Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft

Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz

Battery : 6yr shelf life 30 day operation

(abstracted from, Cockpit Voice Recorders…, 2004 )

The following is an ATC transcription of the June 30, 1962 midair collision near Durban , South Africa

Tower-2: Hit something, what is it?

DC-4: I don't know. Just hang on a sec, Mac, we're going to come down as soon as we can.

DC-4: Please keep us in radar contact all the time

Tower-2: Right. That's fine. We're watching you. You're doing fine

DC-4: How are we getting on, from now onwards. (Byrom, 2001)

Tower-2: You are doing fine. You are now eight miles and well seaward of centre line...closing in nicely...Range seven miles. Well to the starboard of the centre line...suggest revised heading of 270 now.

 

The FDR records many different operating conditions of the flight such as time, altitude, airspeed, heading, and aircraft attitude. This information comes from various areas that are connected to the FDR. When a switch is turned on or off the FDR records that operation. In addition, some FDRs can record the status of more than 300 other in-flight characteristics that can aid in the investigation. With this data the safety board can generate a graphical animation that can help the Investigation Officer to visualize the last moments of the flight before the accident. They create a move like simulation in which engineers and other member so the committee give their own views of what happened and what could be done to further enhance the safety of the aircraft. In America the FAA requires that commercial airlines record a minimum of 11 to 29 parameters, depending on the size of the aircrafts.

"Flight recorders used today employ either magnetic tape or solid-state memory boards, although the trend is toward solid state. The magnetic tape functions like any tape recorder. Solid state recorders are more reliable because they use stacked arrays of memory chips with no moving parts, so there is less need for maintenance, and breakage during a crash is less likely" (Abstracted from SME member manufactures black boxes…, 2000).

The specifications of a Flight Data recorder is

Flight Data Recorder

Time recorded ........................... 25 hour continuous

Number of parameters .............. 5 - 300+

Impact tolerance ....................... 3400Gs /6.5ms

Fire resistance ........................... 1100 degC/30 min

Water pressure resistance ......... submerged 20,000 ft

Underwater locator beacon ...... 37.5 KHz

Battery : 6yr shelf life

30 day operation

(abstracted from, NTSB - FBR & CVR, July 9, 2004 http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm)

The only devices to survive a crash are the Crash-survivable memory units (CSMU's) of the flight data recorders and the cockpit voice recorders. This unit is a large centrically unit that can withstand extreme temperatures, violent crashes and tons of pressure. To provide a barrier to this unit there is a three level protection layers

· Aluminum housing - There is a thin layer of aluminum around the stack of memory cards.

· High-temperature insulation - This dry-silica material is 1 inch (2.54 cm) thick and provides high-temperature thermal protection. This is what keeps the memory boards safe during post-accident fires.

· Stainless-steel shell - The high-temperature insulation material is contained within a stainless-steel cast shell that is about 0.25 inches (0.64 cm) thick. Titanium can be used to create this outer armor as well (Gresley, 1997).

In order for a Black Box recorder to be of any use at all, the memory unit will need to withstand the impact caused by several tones of airplane free falling thousands of feet into unknown terrain. Therefore, it is quite clear that the 'box' must be well engineered to protect what is inside from impact shock, penetration and crushing as well as fire and possibly deep sea submersion. For this reason, they are very strenuously tested.

One such group which tests these 'Boxes' are Engineers at the University of Dayton Research Institute. Kevin Poorman, a mechanical engineer in the group, designs and conducts an impact shock test to monitor how a black box react under crash conditions. Manufacturers fund them to test their own new or improved black boxes. There are several ways in which the CSMU is tested. We have to remember that only the CSMU is the only thing that needs to survive a crash. Once this is saved the experts can then derive the information and proceed further with the investigation. In testing this device data is loaded in the memory boards and a series of tests are conducted. The data is then examined by the experts at the end of the tests. Some of the tests that a CSMU goes through are:

Crash Impact : Researchers shoot the CSMU down an air canon to create an impact of 3,400 Gs. (1 G is the force of earth's gravity so at 3,400 Gs the CSMU hits a honeycomb target at a force equal to 3400 times its weight. This impact is in excess than what a CSMU might face at an actual crash.

Pin drop - To test the unit's penetration resistance, researchers drop a 500-pound (227-kg) weight with a 0.25-inch steel pin protruding from the bottom onto the CSMU from a height of 10 feet (3 m). This pin, with 500-pounds behind it, impacts the CSMU cylinder's most vulnerable axis.

Static crush - For five minutes, researchers apply 5,000 pounds per square-inch (psi) of crush force to each of the unit's six major axis points.

Fire test - Researchers place the unit into a propane-source fireball, cooking it using three burners. The unit sits inside the fire at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit (1,100 C) for one hour. The FAA requires that all solid-state recorders be able to survive at least one hour at this temperature.

Deep-sea submersion - The CSMU is placed into a pressurized tank of salt water for 24 hours.

Salt-water submersion - The CSMU must survive in a salt water tank for 30 days.

Fluid immersion - Various CSMU components are placed into a variety of aviation fluids, including jet fuel, lubricants and fire-extinguisher chemicals (Gresley, 1997).

The heart of a recorder is the Crash Survivable Memory Unit (CSMU). Inside it is the memory on which the data (voice or flight) is stored. In order to protect it so that it will pass the above tests, the following steps are taken when making the Black Box. The box itself is like a thick shell of amour made from stainless steel or titanium. Inside this is a layer of heat proof material which protects what's inside it from fire. Wrapped around the memory chips is another thermal material but this one is wax like and needs to be peeled off in the event of a crash to gain access to the data. The other things which make up the Black Box are the power supply and an underwater location beacon which sends out an audio signal for a month when immersed in water.

However strong they may be, black boxes do not always survive crashes and every time a recorder fails during a crash, the 'Federal Aviation Authority' will mandate new survivability requirements based on the circumstances.

Black boxes are usually sold to and installed by airplane manufacturers. Both these black boxes are installed in the tail of the plane. They are kept there as this increases they chance of survival. The precise location of the recorders depends on the individual plane. Sometimes there are even located in the ceiling of the gallery, in the aft cargo hold or in the tail cone that covers the rear end of the plane. As in an emergency an airplane nose dives towards the ground and the most impact is always felt on the front side of the airplane whereas the tail end receives the least or minimal damage than the rest of the plane ( Buck, 1994) .

Both the FDR and CVR are invaluable tools for any aircraft investigation. These are often the lone survivors of airplane accidents, and as such provide important clues to the cause that would be impossible to obtain any other way. As technology evolves, black boxes will continue to play a tremendous role in accident investigations.

Airplanes are not the only form of transportation to be equipped with black boxes. If auto insurance producers get their way, they’ll soon be harnessing this tool to reduce risk management (Barlay, 1970) .

Motorists may not know it, but their brand-new vehicle may be equipped with a black box just like those traditionally installed on aircraft. Car manufacturers now equip most new vehicles with one of these devices. Why? To gather information about seat belts, air bags and the force of impacts resulting from collisions, in a quest to build safer vehicles. These small devices may also be a boon for insurers. Black boxes contain a gold mine of information about the driving habits of motorists. In the five seconds leading up to an accident, they capture varied data such as vehicle speed, the position of the accelerator and the use of brakes; information that is worth big bucks to insurers. Some insurers believe that once this technology reaches maturity, it will let them better manage auto insurance risks. They also hope to fine-tune pricing, trim compensation for false declarations and identify drivers who are responsible for accidents. Apparently, motorists that cover on average 40,000 km per year have a much higher potential for accidents than those that drive 15,000 km or less. This device could also be used to track down cars when stolen and help the authority to get them back. High Government Officials and people who deal in sensitive nature and their jobs require them to be tracked wherever they go will find that this instrument could be the answer to all their problems ( Buck, 1994) .

ABSTRACT: This September 17, 2001 article from Automotive News cites that a panel of experts has concluded that widespread use of black boxes in cars and trucks would advance motor vehicle safety, but added that thorny questions remain about self-incrimination and privacy. (Source: Automotive News, by Harry Stoffer on September 17, 2001)

Conclusion: The Invention is the most important factor providing a tool in the hands of investigators after a disastrous and catastrophic crash. It helps in determining the causes which led to the crash. Normally there are either human or instrumental. If they are human the determination can lead to a better training for the future pilots including avoidance of fatigue due to over an excessive duty hours.

If the cause is instrumental and technical, which is very often the case, it will lead to improved designing in future aircrafts besides correcting the defects in existing fleets around the world especially of the type and make of the aircraft involved in the crash.

All around us, failure is being read; divined from the bones of the technological dead—design thus marches on. No product is ever perfect, but failure pushes us toward perfection, and every form is a compromise between the failure of yesterday and the promise of tomorrow. The human body itself is in this threshold zone: In societies not marked by endemic war or poverty, one can assume to live longer than one's forebears, but not perhaps as long as one's successors. The form keeps evolving. The human body, with its myriad sensors and indicators, its inner workings kept carefully concealed and rarely considered, may be the ultimate black box. The lesson, for either man or machine, is clear: None of us outlive our data.



-------------


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 06 November 2005 at 1:46am

Angela, anyone without even two brain cells to rub can be patriotic, but it's extremely hard to think globally - that's the exact need of the day - to fight stupidity and fascism.

I haven't read your post. It's just a bit too long and seems to be a copy and paste job from some typical Washington Gang propoganda.

Could you just enlighten us, please, as to why a WHODUNNIT public enquiry has not thus far been held - despite considerable demands from US academics, eminent writers, thinkers and including General Wesley Clark and whole range of other people?

Such enquiry will solve a lot of riddles and will be more in the American public's interest than of anyone else in the world.

You will have to forgive us, it's extremely sad and not entirely our fault BUT we fail and also now refuse to believe any word put out by your government or government affiliated agencies and persons - after a few recent dosees of extremely colourful lies. You would agree (if you stepped out of your suoer US Patriotism for less than two minutes) that only fools and horses would take anything put up by the US serious after our great Secretary of State's Power Point performance at the UN for the Iraq war.

It will benefit the American people to think:

if your government could lie to you on such matters, push 2,000 young American men and women to hell (or heaven since some have now started to sell them off as shaheeds!) and terminally damage over 22,000 of their own young blood for life - forget about the 100,000 or so dead "others"

could this government not produce an incidence to staep towards this war??

I am a flyer. I got my PPL long before someone ever allowed me to drive the car out of the estate. I have many friends in the US, many of them flyers, some also connected with the USAF. I have checked - the jets were NEVER scrambled. And, for a whole of 58 minutes.

There are many other holes, but you will see through them once you stopped being just an American and start a few human cells in you.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 06 November 2005 at 3:10am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

They recovered the passports and ID's from the site but not the flight recorders

You reasoning is simplitic to say the least, you can not account for what occured in the crash by simple reasoning that the plane exploded therefor everything went boom.

"It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back. I can't recall another domestic case in which we did not recover the recorders," Ted Lopatkiewicz, spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board, http://www.911review.org/Wget/www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/02/25/attack/main501989.shtml - told CBS News in 2002 .

Survivability Requirements

Events that would damage the recorders sufficiently to make them unreadable are extremely rare. NTSB spokesperson Ted Lopatkiewicz said that he couldn't recall a domestic case before 9/11/01 in which the recorders were not recovered. http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html#ref5 - http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html#ref6 - and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.



Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 06 November 2005 at 10:17am
Anyone seen the documentary "Loose Change"? It presents some very logical questions, like: How could a indestructible metal protected blackbox completely be destroyed, while passports made up of paper survive?


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 06 November 2005 at 12:25pm

How could a indestructible metal protected blackbox completely be destroyed, while passports made up of paper survive?

Perhaps you never saw "Forest Gump". In the titles, the feather keeps dropping, dropping and dropping for ever, in slow motion. Or, perhaps the Saudi passports are made of some indestructible material.

Whatever. Don't you think it should be in the best interest of the American public to at least know WHODUNNIT? Specially with the deceptive track record of this administration + the laughable Intel capability.

Other than that what they think or don't think on this matter does NOT really matter to us.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:57am
Originally posted by Deus

Anyone seen the documentary "Loose Change"? It presents some very logical questions, like: How could a indestructible metal protected blackbox completely be destroyed, while passports made up of paper survive?


This is also for Rami who is suggesting the same ridiculous theory and by extension what folks?  That the US slaughtered its own citizens?  First of all the black boxes are not 'indestructable!'  Secondly the fires inside the WTC reached very high temps and were fueled by the building fires as well and raged for hours.  Thirdly consider the compression of the plane into the buildings and then by the buildings' collapse.  Fourthly, the papers and other items can get jettisoned out of the windows as did millions of papers...

These things are not hard to understand if you think about the physics of the problem.  Some wished for conspiracy theory that does not comport with facts or physics is IRRESPONSIBLE.  The alternative hypothesis that you are trying to suggest is unbelievably heinous and to do so you need more than just wishful thinking..give us some FACTS folks for your incredible and senseless theories that you are having crazed dreams about stuffing in Americans faces..

Instead of trying to cram stuff down our throats and into our faces...let's deal with reality and facts and go from there....the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 do not hold water.  The account that out of several thousand jetliners in the air 4 were hijacked and flown into buildings murdering 3000 people in one hour (that's a rate of 72,000/day) is what ACTUALLY HAPPENED and no amount of dreaming, wishing and hoping can will it away..



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 12:27pm

Does multiplying it really make it more impressive? To sensitive people even one death is too many.

We hold no desire of convincing you or the need to win some votes in the states at all. It does NOT effect us one way or the other. We know where we stand on this and other issues with the US. It will be in your own best interest, as a nation, to know what actually happened.

Good luck, no one has any need to push anything down your throats.

 



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 12:45pm
Multiplying gives people a sense of the scope..besides you argue in favor of some sort of a coverup re: 9/11, so how can you be talking about 'sensitive' and not...please - if you were sensitive you wouldn't be carting out these cockeyed, mouth frothing theories in dishonor to those killed that day as you try to implicate Bush obsessively...'sensitive' - right..

"It does NOT effect us one way or the other."

So why would you even suggest anything about 'sensitivity' when this is your true sentiment?

"
We know where we stand on this and other issues with the US."

Oh really?  And where is that Dubya?




-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 1:01pm

Frankly Whisper, the article I sent to you was written a while ago and had nothing to do with 9/11.  It was simply a scientific article on black boxes.  Of course, since you didn't read it, you wouldn't know that.  Funny how you base your arguments without checking the facts. 

 



-------------


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 2:35pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Bruce do a reality check you are on a muslim webforum, you are the one stuffing your garbage down our throats.

I am informing people about some basic points if you believe that or not i dont care that isnt the reason why i posted them to begin with.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 3:24pm
Dubya:
"I am a flyer. I got my PPL long before someone ever allowed me to drive the car out of the estate. I have many friends in the US, many of them flyers, some also connected with the USAF. I have checked - the jets were NEVER scrambled."
============

If there were thousands of jets in the air, at what point do you scramble the fighters and to what target?  They were scrambled once the towers were hit...what do you mean 'never scrambled.'  Who did you check with on that...

And again, since you feign 'sensitivity' to our plight - how sensitive are these cockeyed theories you're throwing in our faces?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Bruce do a reality check you are on a muslim webforum, you are the one stuffing your garbage down our throats.

I am informing people about some basic points if you believe that or not i dont care that isnt the reason why i posted them to begin with.


Oh, this is rich.  You're telling me that I'm stuffing 'garbage' down your throats?  My comments to you, Deus and Dubya about cramming conspiracy theories and notions crudely upon us (or down our throats) have to do with evident insensitivity about the largest mass murder in US history (by (self avowed) Muslim extremists.)

What do your comments pertain to?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 3:52pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

according to you the rest of the world aloing with a large portion of americans are cazy and your right.

insensative becouse people dont believe the oficial party line?

makes no difference to me most of the evidence is coming from americans them self so no there not incensed by such ideas.

this issue will not be turned iunto another haulocost revisionst spook fest.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 4:18pm
Insensitive because you propogate theories without proof...what are you actually saying?  That the Israelis or the US Govt. killed or allowed those people to be murdered...isn't that it?  That's INSENSITIVE man, because, you have no proof and are just USING that horrid, despicable act to further your pet theories about 'us evil' or 'bush evil' - yes, that's insensitive to those that were brutally murdered that day, to their families, et al, and to all Americans that suffered greatly that day...yes, it is...and without proof you feel justified to do this?

-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 4:55pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

i sugest you watch the citizens commission into 9/11 done by the families you are talking about and those mostly effected.

i havent stated anything about israel your just stereotyping, i actualy havnt said much.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 10:56pm

Great! Then GIVE us the proof that the Muzlims did it. INDEPENDENT PROOF. Not from your faulty, dead, gone past its sell by date sort of Intel services.

Actual proof.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 07 November 2005 at 11:06pm

Frankly Whisper, the article I sent to you was written a while ago and had nothing to do with 9/11.  It was simply a scientific article on black boxes.  Of course, since you didn't read it, you wouldn't know that.  Funny how you base your arguments without checking the facts. 

Angela, I respect not just your thought, your sentiment and also your lines. They don't smell. They vibe of genuine concern at the human level. Unlike some others they are not just meant to provoke and sound as if some football stadium like macho US best of all arrogant roars.

Just forget about what I say or I don't say - for a minute. Forget about us, we are now bound to fight the US of A in a war that has been promised to be without an end. (a dream war for the weapons industry, Halliburton, the lot) I don't have to tell you who is making "what" out of Iraq "reconstruction".

Tell me would it not be in your own best interest to find out who did it?

I promise you, to me it doesn't matter at all.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 09 November 2005 at 12:37pm
"Unlike some others"

Hahahaha...I have become a demon in Dubya's own mind...a legend in my own time...a legend in Sasha's mind...


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 09 November 2005 at 12:44pm
"INDEPENDENT PROOF"

Give me 'independent proof' that you exist...how do we know that you're not just a programmed servlet somewhere? 

Let's try 19 dead hijackers and the acceptance of blame by OBL/AQ for starters and the general rejoicing among Muslim radicals to second that notion.  Why don't we mix in a little common sense and 'reams of evidence?'  That's for starters...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html ?page=2&c=y

"
The widely accepted account that hijackers commandeered and crashed the four 9/11 planes is supported by reams of evidence, from cockpit recordings to forensics to the fact that crews and passengers never returned home. Nonetheless, conspiracy theorists seize on a handful of "facts" to argue a very different scenario: The jets that struck New York and Washington, D.C., weren't commercial planes, they say, but something else, perhaps refueling tankers or guided missiles. And the lack of military intervention? Theorists claim it proves the U.S. government instigated the assault or allowed it to occur in order to advance oil interests or a war agenda."

-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 09 November 2005 at 11:35pm
Rami,

You suggested in another string that the "US Government is capable of doing" such a thing as 9/11.

Do you believe that the US government murdered 3,000 of its own citizens on 9/11 and do you have any proof of this heinous, outrageous suggestion other than your own musings?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 09 November 2005 at 11:44pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

what i believe is not your concern, dont place words in my mouth either this would be a lie bruce.

the evidence is coming to light for what ever occured.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 09 November 2005 at 11:49pm

So OBL and AQ owned the incident?

Just in your dreams and in the American media.

It's no use furnishing any globally accepted truth to any NeoCon stoneheads yet for general Public benefit:

1. Mullah Omer had agreed to place OBL in the custody of any mutually acceptable THIRD country provided that the US government just showed even some shadow of proof to the effect that OBL or any of his party were involved in 9/11.

2. If Muslims delight at the incident is the proof of their guilt then you must also include the Yugoslavs and perhaps some Latin American nations as well. I was in Turkey when it happened. A few days later I travelled to Belgrad - the Slavs were in sheer delight.

3. OBL told his closest colleagues, till his dying day (he died of kidney failure, over a year and a half ago. Your admin knows it. Has it shared this with you? Why are they keeping it such a secret?) could NOT work out who had done it.

4. So, the governments have never enacted anything in utter secret? No pacts, no deals or acts out of the sight of their own people?

If they are so open and clear in all their dealings then WHY DO THEY ARCHIVE SOME MATERIAL TO BE AVAILABLE ONLY IN 30, 50 OR 75 YEARS?



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 12:02am
"provided that the US government just showed even some shadow of proof to the effect that OBL or any of his party were involved in 9/11."

Yes, OBL, through voice wave comparisons, not only has made references to 9/11, has exulted in it and has used it as a some sort of heinous criminal object lesson.

"
2. If Muslims delight at the incident is the proof of their guilt then you must also include the Yugoslavs and perhaps some Latin American nations as well. I was in Turkey when it happened.

Name officials other than Saddam that exulted?  Even Castro and Khadafi sent condolensces...I'm sure no Latin American nations did not send condolensces...you're wrong Dubya.

3. OBL told his closest colleagues, till his dying day (he died of kidney failure, over a year and a half ago. Your admin knows it. Has it shared this with you? Why are they keeping it such a secret?) could NOT work out who had done it.

Even if OBL didn't know who did it (say he was going senile or something), even if he died, good riddance, Zwahiri and other AQ mucky muck criminals know or put the informal network into play...it's your dream that the US masterminds it's own criminal terrorist attacks on itself...what sheer lunacy this sort of talk is - but it does tell us much about you and Rami!

Of course things happen in secret...I just don't think that an accountable government like the US has could even get away with what you're suggesting...it's sheer madness...plus you've got absolutely no proof of this...it's just wild eyed ranting, and howling at the moon!

The US can't clip a hangnail without the world screaming at it.  How is it that it just conveniently slipped 3,000 murders of its own under the radar?  This notion is both obscene and absurd...

Just up your guys alley apparently?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 12:06am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

what i believe is not your concern, dont place words in my mouth either this would be a lie bruce.

B: Once again Rami, let me QUOTE you:
"
I think the American Government is capable of doing such things"
How is this placing words in your mouth when this is what you wrote (said)?

As to this not being my 'concern', I'm afraid when you started throwing out conspiracy theories regarding my country and my government it very definitely became my concern..I will not place words in your mouth Rami - you posted, I respond.  These are your own words.  Why do you come back around to this 'lie' business again?  I am simply asking what you think...are you having a hard time with this process?


the evidence is coming to light for what ever occured.

B: What do you mean 'whatever' occured...how did the US, which can't cut a hangnail off without the whole world knowing and screaming about it...just 'get away ' with 3,000 murders?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 12:30am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Being capable of (and having the capacity to) and actualy doing it are two different matters.

I dont believe a word of the American Government oficial story, for all i know they could have bribed people into talking these people into doing such an act.

In The past the CIA has braged about buying afghanistan for 70 million US beffore the war even began, the amount it took to bribe many warlords and suporters of the taliban. They have also braged about having many so called shaykhs on theyre payroll around the world.





-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 4:01am

I dont believe a word of the American Government oficial story,

Even Gen Wesley Clark or, for that matter, half of the world doesn't. Most of the US academics don't. Wonder when they all will be declared terrorists?

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 4:10am

I am extremely sorry, Bruce, your post is again flowing in all those alleys. If you wish to see the truth of the matter, you will not shirk from examining all possibilities just for your own national good.

What you believe bothers us not.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by rami

I dont believe a word of the American Government oficial story, for all i know they could have bribed people into talking these people into doing such an act. 


What do you believe?  This is the ultimate target for conspiracy theorists...whatever the official word is, is bunk.  How can that be when the official word is validated and vetted in every possible way by hawkeyes from all over the globe?  Whatever discrepancies there were in the official accounts or corrections in subsequent accounts were found...they found one of two of the names of the hijackers were phony IDs they'd stolen and that sort of thing..

Further Rami, what DO you believe happened?  It's not enough to simply cast doubt on the official story without saying what (you think) actually happened...that's just a path of least resistance...step up and tell us what really happened and why you think that.

Was it aliens?  Was it Israel Massad?  Who and why do you believe these things?

Thanks in advance..




-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:11pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

bruce be happy to go through life knowing that the majority of the world will not agree with you, i care nothing for having dialogue with you on these matters please understand the concept of benefiting from something, i see non in such a task.

Your set in your mentality so anything you approach is from the angle of forcing the other person to see what you want.

This is an islamic site above all else if these discussions turn into arguments every time eventualy they will be stoped. The benefit and harmony of the forum is above all else this is not a place for dispute.




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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 11 November 2005 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

bruce be happy to go through life knowing that the majority of the world will not agree with you, i care nothing for having dialogue with you on these matters ...

B: Gotcha, blast out the conpiracies and when asked what you believe and why you believe it - claim it's a waste of time...and here you have a  forum to do so...why will you not tell us what you think?  I think you've got no evidence for your conspiracies or it's based on flimsy reasoning like - those pictures looked like there was a pod missile or some such thing.  But to avoid getting into details, while still being able to throw a bunch of mud at the current US admin, you can just slam the conspiracies out here in an article, and then, when appropriately asked 'why' and 'what', as Colin did in another string, you then say you don't want to talk because it's a waste of time...well, perhaps these conspiracies truly ARE a waste of time...you don't mind if we come to that conclusion do you?

Your set in your mentality so anything you approach is from the angle of forcing the other person to see what you want.

B: If this were a trial, or even the court of public opinion, you'd be forced to actually PROVE the conspiracy theories that are dam*ing to the US.  That would be reasonable and rational.  I'm not forcing you to do anything - you have every right to defend or not defend your conspiracy theories so presented here.  Feel every freedom to do so or not.

This is an islamic site above all else if these discussions turn into arguments every time eventualy they will be stoped.

B: I am not the one presenting such inflammtory arguments to begin with.  Nor demanding that the citizens of the country so impugned should just respect this site.  If you are into respecting this site, I would suggest you not use it for putting out these conspiracy theories and then expecting that people not respond.  You need to look yourself in the mirror on that one.

The benefit and harmony of the forum is above all else this is not a place for dispute.

B: If you really hold to this then I would suggest you reconsider putting out such inflammtory articles as the one that you started in this string.



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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 11 November 2005 at 4:59pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Bruce you are on a muslim webforum, maby you have been made to feel a little to at home to actualy notice that you are the only one being inflamed.

I sugest you take what i said a little more seriously if this arguing persists i will stop these posts of yours, which are inflamitory to the muslim population of this webforum.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 13 November 2005 at 6:14pm

http://novakeo.com/?p=262 - Consider this , Bruce.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 12:02am
"these posts of yours, which are inflamitory to the muslim population of this webforum."

==============

I see Rami, you can throw out conspiracy theories and when I contend them, quite fairly and with factual backing...that is somehow 'inflammatory to the muslim population of this forum?'  What kind of thinking and approach is that?  Perhaps you can prove your case against me along these lines...but I highly doubt that.  And there are others that contend these theories about who killed AMERICANS (this is also why this is infuriating to me to be treated this way, in that you're putting this out about the murders of Americans and then trying to silence me, an American!)

You'd enjoy nothing better, it seems, than to silence my voice - and with that some of the freedom to discuss issues from a different point of view than some here have...how will this contribute to the purposes of this site?  I have tried to listen to your instructions as best I can but often you don't even follow your own instructions.  Further, you continue to address me publicly instead of PMing me on these issues so we can come to some sort of understanding of what it is you expect of me and why it is you level these charges against me publicly (and then expect me not to respond)...why is this?  You have not told me how I'm inflammatory, just that I am.  Because.  Because you don't like that I speak my mind and convictions?  Is that it?  Is it because you don't like that I'm a Christian and not a Muslim - are we not allowed here?  Do you not wish to dialogue with us, and with Americans?  All who disagree on the 'Current events' forum should simply stifle their thoughts and carte blanche accept what the other person is saying?

Is that really the course you wish to take?  What kind of "discussion" is that?

Let me ask you this - since we've decided to do this partially in public here - do you have something against me personally, or is it the convictions I convey in my posts that you object to?

How am I inflammatory in your view?  (feel free to PM me as well as I have no particular need to discuss this in public..except when you address me specifically..)


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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 1:14am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

The eye witness account is on public record and was given at the 9/11 commision into the event. What you make of it is your opinion among a sea of other opinions. That you are inflamed over the issue is not my concern or responsability it is americans themself who are furthering this line of investigation not muslims, it does not break forum guidelins in anyway.

I dont derive joy out of removing a source of argumentation on this forum if i was atempting what you sugest you would have been banned without question the forum guidlines which the moderators devised give me that right as stated in rule 19. By your cultural religious standards what you are doing is nothing but a debate by ours it is a source of tribulation and moral coruption to be constantly debating in such a manner. This is an Islamic forum and Islamic moral Guidelines apply you may not be aware of them but i am not a teacher of Islam to inform you of the particulars my self.

I also address other people publicly not just yourself and will continue to do so, in this way people learn from others peoples mistakes.

A number of christian members on this forum will refute your claim that i have something against christians, i take issue with american loud atitude as do all non americans. You have to realise you are not in america as such when you are posting on this forum a different set of moral values apply.

What i have said before is not a charge or acusations your posts are inflamitory to all muslims this is a fact witnessed by muslims and non muslims on this forum. You do not speak for all Americans either, many have come here and had dialouge without any issue arising and have been most welcome guests.

What is it exactly you are doing here you only post one type of article, do you hounestly think people lookfoward to reading them most are nothing but propaganda pieces which you alone here view as fact.

Americans have invaded Iraq simple truth wich you view differently, realise you are offending a lot of muslims who watch there brothers loose there country and freedom day by day.

Democracy is your choice not ours this is just another colinial power installing another pupet government, we have a long history of this if you are not aware.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 2:18am

Rami wrote:

This is an Islamic forum and Islamic moral Guidelines apply you may not be aware of them but i am not a teacher of Islam to inform you of the particulars my self.
 

Perhaps the moral guidelines of this forum should also extend to discouraging the spreading of  far-fetched, conspiracy theories. Because this type of material will obviously receive the deserved scrutiny of those not so easily seduced by such fantastically imaginative drivel.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 3:00am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Do you recal Rehmat and his posts and was done to them?

this remains an Islamic forum whether you like it or not i sugest you leave if you do not feel you are being treated fairly.

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html - http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/slides.html -
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/slides.html

Site is done by NY'ers if i remember the 9/11 citizens commission corectly.



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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 3:22am

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Do you recal Rehmat and his posts and was done to them?

this remains an Islamic forum whether you like it or not i sugest you leave if you do not feel you are being treated fairly.

I'm no expert, but I don't believe that Islam condones the spreading of wild conspiracy theories. It probably doesn't make a specific pronouncement on the subject, but I doubt if such behaviour would be considered desirable by most adherents of Islam.

Anyhow, the fact that this an Islamic forum shouldn't really be relevant in the context of disagreements about the promotion of conspiracy theories on this site. If you are suggesting that non-Muslims should remain silent on the posting of such theories, then you have the right as a moderator to remove our posts or even ban us, but if you do, don't be surprised if fellow members from whatever faith, question the motives of such actions.



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 3:35am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

You percieve his account as wild while if you invetigate the information on that site you will see it is consistant with the evidence presented and well within the bounds of posibility.

Islam is relavent to disagreements themself and anything relating to muslims. the argument that my post should be removed as they are inflamitory to some people is the whole issue according to you well it is not.

I posted the article and you are the one being inflamed by it, you wish me to remain silent not the otherway around. Bruce was posting propaganda pieces for the U.S government much of which was ofensive to muslims as well as excessively arguing. This discussion is anything but civil and as such moral standards must be upheld.

Please point me towards the non muslim posting theories i began this post and you are calling it a wild theory do i have to remind you whose side you are on?




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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 4:19am

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

You percieve his account as wild while if you invetigate the information on that site you will see it is consistant with the evidence presented and well within the bounds of posibility. 

That is your view, and you are welcome to it.

Islam is relavent to disagreements themself and anything relating to muslims. the argument that my post should be removed as they are inflamitory to some people is the whole issue according to you well it is not.

You have every right to post this stuff. No one is suggesting it should be removed but people should have the right to counter it without being subjected to thinly veiled threats of banning particularly your mentioning of the fate of Rehmat (Who was I believe, banned for spamming the forum with anti-Semetic and racist posts).

I posted the article and you are the one being inflamed by it, you wish me to remain silent not the otherway around.

See above.

Bruce was posting propaganda pieces for the U.S government much of which was ofensive to muslims as well as excessively arguing. This discussion is anything but civil and as such moral standards must be upheld.

Anyone here has the right to counter fellow members posts, that is what a discussion forum is all about, isn't it?, Of course it should be conducted in a civilised manner.

Please point me towards the non muslim posting theories i began this post

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by "non muslim posting theories", but perhaps it would help if you did a little research before pasting in some of the more exotic stuff that you post. For example, the article about Jews being tipped off before the recent bombings in Jordan. Which with a little prior investigation would have shown it for what it was, a completely false story. These false stories quite often end up as conspiracy theories that get believed by the terminally gullible and recorded as hard fact in the annals of propagandist history. Just take a look at all the online trash that was spewed out after 9/11.

and you are calling it a wild theory do i have to remind you whose side you are on?

I don't know what you mean by this Rami, but for the record, I'm on the side of moderation and objectivity.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by rami


i take issue with american loud atitude as do all non americans. You have to realise you are not in america as such when you are posting on this forum a different set of moral values apply.

What i have said before is not a charge or acusations your posts are inflamitory to all muslims this is a fact witnessed by muslims and non muslims on this forum.

B: Rami, no need to patronize me, call me loud, et al.  You simply disagree with me adamently and it serves your purpose to call me an American with 'loud attitude' and call my posts of good news from Iraq somehow 'inflammatory.'  Such a case is ridiculous on its face, imho.  How can a posting of good news be inflammtory?  How?  Perhaps you'll continue to prosecute this case, but there is no case that I'm being inflammatory by simply posting articles about reconstruction and many thankful Iraqis - thankful that the murderous tryant Saddam is gone.

You do not speak for all Americans either, many have come here and had dialouge without any issue arising and have been most welcome guests.

B: As long as they agree with you, they are welcome?  Is that the policy of this 'discussion' of current events?  Correct me if I'm wrong..you seem most upset because I'm asking you questions and asking you to support some theories about 9/11 that are as Colin says 'far fetched' and have no or extremely flimsy proof.

...most are nothing but propaganda pieces which you alone here view as fact.

B: Ah, you want to post theories that cast aspersions that somehow the US govt. murdered 3,000 of its own citizens in one hour - that's OK by you.. I post news articles about reconstruction in Iraq and they're 'inflammatory' and 'propaganda?'  Really Rami, what gives here?

Americans have invaded Iraq simple truth wich you view differently, realise you are offending a lot of muslims who watch there brothers loose there country and freedom day by day.

B: If Iraq has had three elections with 30 million votes cast in less than one year - how are they losing their freedom?

Democracy is your choice not ours this is just another colinial power installing another pupet government, we have a long history of this if you are not aware.

B: I highly doubt any colonial power has ever garnered 30 million votes...no, this is definitively different.

I wish God's Peace to you Rami - I harbor nothing whatsoever against you personally..




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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 15 November 2005 at 4:03pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Bruce i care nothing for your views i dont seek for you to understand or agree. i am not debating the issue with you to see if i am right or wrong i am informing you of the decision the moderators have agreed upon.

Colin this is not over debating the truth of my post you do not know what this is over that is clear enough.




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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.



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