Clearly demonstrates the US government is a lying, criminal organization. Jazakallah Khairun, akhi.

What's really funny is the part where he mentions that in Europe there is freedom of information and therefore the people there all know the US is lying. It seems the only ones who still believe the US government's story are the fools who voted them in.

Its nice that 40,000 people worked at the WTC and only ONE comes up with hearing explosions.  Not to mention the hundreds of cameras trained on the buildings and people going in and out before the collapse and only ONE man is saying Bomb.  I am starting to get annoyed with the constant Barage of BULL**** posted by some of you on these boards. 

THE USA IS FALLIBLE, but not the conspiracy monger you'd all like to believe.  Here's news flash!

19 MUSLIMS killed 3,000 people...get it through your thick skulls....not ever muslim is a saint nor is every christian. 

Is the War in Iraq right....I dont' think so....Does the US have alterior motives?  Oils a big one, but please....stop trying to rewrite history because you hate a country. 

Frankly I'm getting sick of seeing post after post after post of utter crap that has no proof, no validity and no basis in fact. 

Go ahead and keep swearing to lies, but in the end, there are 19 men buring in Hell and I hope their torments are hideous.

By Greg Szymanski

A 911 rescue worker said this week he was told by FBI agents to "keep his
mouth shut" about one of the "black boxes" found at ground zero, contradicting
the official story that none of the flight and cockpit data recorders were ever
recovered in the WTC wreckage.

Honorary firefighter Mike Bellone claims he was approached by unknown bureau
agents a short time after he and his partner Nicholas DeMasi, a retired New
York firefighter, found three of the four "black boxes" among the WTC rubble
before January 2002.

The pair first claimed to find the data recorders in an August 2003 book
entitled "Behind The Scene: Ground Zero" when DeMasi said the "black boxes" were
found while he traversed ground zero in his ATV with three federal agents.

FBI and New York fire officials have denied ever finding the voice and data
recorders.

Now Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret.

"They confronted me and told me to not to say anything," recalls Bellone,
referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in
the back of DeMasi's ATV. "I said give me a good reason? When they couldn't, I
told them I wouldn't shut up about it.

"Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It's the truth and
Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have."

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 911 rescue workers to see the
black boxes. He said there were several other witnesses and knows first hand
they have been silenced by federal agents.

"I know two or three others saw what went down, but they are not talking,"
added Bellone. "They got to those guys after they talked to me. The only reason
I can figure they are trying to hide the truth is that the government knows it
screwed up and the recorders would prove it."

Asked to give names of the other witnesses, he said he wouldn't break a
fellow-worker's confidence, privacy and firm desire to remain anonymous.

"I can tell you this, though, it was all very strange. I worked on the
spaceship Columbia clean-up and you know when something important is found and when
something is not" he recalled, saying the day the 'black boxes' were secretly
carted away agents acted like "something big was going down."

Bellone also recalled never learning the FBI names as this type of personal
contact and information wasn't exchanged between the civilian workers and
government officials working side-by-side at ground zero.

"We worked together, but nobody knew their names," added Bellone. "They had
on their FBI jackets, but I'm sure I could pick them out of a line-up or
recognize their pictures."

The pair's  bombshell accusations blows a big hole in the official story as
well as the findings in the recent 911 Commission report. In Chapter 1,
footnote 76, there is the sole but definitive reference to the airline "black boxes":

"The CVR's and the FDR's (voice and flight data recorders) from American 11
and United 175 were not found."

Asked if DeMasi and Bellone were questioned or subpoenaed, Commission
spokesman Al Felzenberg said:

"I can't tell you now if he was is one of the 1,200 people we interviewed or
if the book was one of the countless ones we researched. We explored every
lead, but I will try to find out if we talked with him and get back to you"

However, Bellone said he and DeMasi never were contacted by Commission
members or asked to appear regarding their statements even though the book was
published well before the hearings commenced.

And it's amazing with a story of such importance that in over a year since
the book surfaced almost nobody else has called them either. It's hard to
imagine a story with such magnitude has not been thoroughly checked out unless the
mainstream press purposely ignored it.

"I have been contacted by only one newspaper reporter from the Philadelphia
Daily News. That's it," he said, referring to an October 2004 story by reporter
William Bunch, recapping DeMasi's book statements as well as the usual
official denials.

Those close to the 911 investigation said the recovery of the "black boxes"
is important, holding vital clues and leading to the truth of what really
happened on the morning of 911.

The cockpit voice recorder uses a pair of microphones to capture all cockpit
sounds for the last 30 minutes of a doomed flight. The flight date recorder is
also significant since it records altitude, heading and airspeed.

Both recorders are designed to withstand enormous impact and heat. National
Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials said they should have withstood the
conditions at the WTC.

And finding the boxes after a crash seems to be standard procedure, according
to the NTSB.

"It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back,' said NTSB
spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. "I can't remember another case which we did not recover
the recorders."

Bellone is retired and was made an honorary New York fireman for his efforts
after 911. DeMasi also recently retired from Engine Co. 261, nicknamed the
"Flaming Skulls," after serving a brief stint after 911 with the fire
department's marine unit.

Greg Szymanski

Rami,

I've been quite so far, but I cannot handle the stupid articles posted here over and over and over.  You're not the only guilty party.  Here's a little thought to wrap your Aussie head around.  Freedom of speech means, any idiot can set up a website and make himself a reporter and write anything he wants and there's nothing that can be done to refute the person, except another idiot getting online and writing his own interpretation while ignoring all the facts entirely.  Conspiracy theories and pure unadulterated crap in reporting is almost a Western tradition with places like the Enquirer and The Guardian. 

Who killed Kennedy, it was a consipracy from the Aliens working with the Russians and LBJ to put him in office so that we could go to Vietnam and make the weapons industries lots of money and test chemical agents on our soldiers to develop the super soldier to attack Russia and take over their super secret chicken hatcheries where they were breeding the Bird Flu that's going to kill us all.

This is about the credibility of all the stories you guys post here day after day. 

You talk about Logic and reason.....we'll there is an answer to that.  The simplest answer is the logical answer.  So what's the simplest answer to 9/11. 

A bunch of men got together and planned to bring the USA to its knees in a reign of terror.  Instead, they woke a Giant and now there is war.

http://www.pbase.com/april_sims/the_awakening">

Rami,

What makes your experts, EXPERTS.  I was an international studies and politics major at a respected private college.  My professors worked with government.  I know and have met with Senator Rick Santorum, Former Gov Thomas Ridge, also Former Secretary of Homeland Security.  I have attended symposiums on Government, been to Washington DC.  I've attended sessions of Congress and written papers on American government.  Does that make me an Expert........not in the least?  My uncle is an analyst for the CIA, his brother was IN Afganistan and is now dying of a degenerative condition from an injury suffered to his nervous system. My brother, uncles, grandfather, grand uncles and cousins have all served in every branch save the Marines...does that make me an expert on war?  No. 

The authors you post are not respected experts on anything.  Joseph Wilson says the Bush administration exaggerated evidence to give justification for Iraq.  You know what...I'm okay with believing that.  The investigations are showing that the CIA screwed up their intelligence about the WMDs in Saddam's possession.  I'm okay with that.  Saying that the US blew up the basements of the Twin Towers is crap with no evidence or justification.  Same with the "black" boxes.  Let me tell you something about science.  Do you know how hot the flames were on the floors where the Jets collided?  They were so hot they melted the steel of the building.  The black boxes are not built to withstand that amount of heat.  Nor are they built to withstand the impact from 1,000s of tons of steel, concrete and other items being crushed down onto them.  The force of which the WTC collapse pulverized the very steel of the buildings and vaporized bodies.  And you expect me to believe that the boxes in those buildings survived and we don't know about it?  Logically it doesn't make sense....they simple weren't built for that kind of thing.  If I wanted to find a black box, it would be at the pentagon site or at Shanksville, nto the WTC.

Don't call those that intentionally are causing more conflict by fabricating stories to get attention.  Sensationalism is the name of the game in the Amercian Media.  I trust my relatives that are officers in the Army or in and out of Langley before I trust some internet posting. 

The problem I'm seeing with 75% of the stories posted here in Current Events is they are coming from disreputable sources and you are all so desparate to see the events of that day as being our fault that you automatically believe any crap you read. 

If you want to blame the US for 9/11, blame the policies that armed OBL during the Afganistan/Russian war.  If you want to blame the US for terrorism, blame our economic policies, our freedoms of religion and conscience.  But, do not be so stupid as to think that we would murder thousands of our own for an excuse to invade.

Frankly, the American mindset is far more dangerous than that Rami.  Here's why I KNOW that you're articles are crap.  The average american redneck doesn't need a reason to beat up on someone different.  That's good enough for them.  Iraq was only waiting for another catalyst to cause that war.  AQ and OBL gave us an reason to get off our lazy butts.  Frankly, if they hadn't done what they did.  The world would still be the same today as it was on 9/10.  Bush wasn't in office long enough for there to be the giant consipracy others are claiming.  He took office in January....8 months later, bang, the world changes.

8 months for the layers of your conspiracy onions to start wrapping itself up.  Wow, hell it took him 2 years to cook up enough crap to get the Iraqi war going.  I'm impressed with the brain power that only took 8 months to plan something like getting our enemies to grace us with an attack so we could have all our ducks in place to help them kill us.  Frankly, Rami, Bush is a moron.  He's not smart enough for that crap.

Thank you ak_m_f, I needed a good laugh today.  javascript add_smilie":ph43r:"'>

those boxes weren't even burned by the 2,000 degree jet fuel explosion, they weren't even discolored...they had the two white stripes and the orange paint all in tact...

Yeah, that's what I was getting at with my sarcasm.  Simple Logic and common sense shows how impossible these stories are.  They are written to have just enough of the information people WANT to hear but not enough detail to give hard evidence or even enough evidence to have them discredited. 

Come on people.  You are smarter than this.  Most of you have educations and are bilingual.  Just because there is a byline, doesn't make it fact.

This is why the article about the black box is crap.....here's the specifications for a black box.  The WTC  exceeded the maximum crush and temperature of the survivability of the Box.  As would have the fire in the pentagon.  As for Shanksville, well, that one they'd have to explain alot to me...or maybe its still buried in the field, there were little bits of plane and stuff all over the area.  Maybe we'll get lucky and when they build the memorial they'll find it if they havent' already.

The Black Box

Introduction:

In the recent years many air plane disasters are reported. This is due to either technical reasons or in cases of terrorism. The Investigation Officers rely on a device known as "The Black Box". This device is used to record the end moments of the crew conversation. This helps in giving the investigation party clue’s of what was the motive behind the disaster. The Black Box saves data about a little more than 30 minutes of conversation and any other audible cockpit noises. It is called the 'black box' due to the secret nature of what it contains. The information inside, especially in the cockpit voice recorder can be very personal and should not get into the wrong hands. For this reason, the information inside is encoded.

The color of the black box is Orange the reason for this color is obvious. It needs to be conspicuous so that it will be easy to find in any terrain. It has to clash with the color of the ocean, mountains, trees or deserts in order for easier location in the event of a crash. It is normal, now for black boxes to have tracing equipment in them. After any airplane accident the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) immediately begins searching for two devices. These devices are known as the airplanes "flight data recorder" (FDR) and "cockpit voice recorder" (CVR).

An Australian scientist Dr. David Warren was the man behind this invention. These devices or The Black Box as it is most commonly called is universally adopted as a tool for investigating and preventing airline disasters. He developed this device while he was investigating a series of the world's first jet-powered passenger aircraft, the Comet. He came to reason that the conversation from the crew could help give clues to what actually happened before the crash and come to a conclusion of how the crash actually happened. This came to the conclusion that a device of this sort would be needed on every flight. Sometime earlier Warren had been to an exhibition of technical equipment where he saw the worlds first miniaturized pocket recorder. This device was a German-made Minifon and it recorded sounds on a steel rod rather than a magnetic tape. Warren then installed this feature on his first black box the steel rod could withstand temperatures to red heat without loosing its information. With the advent of the Boeing 747 and the Douglas DC 10 which are sophisticated aircrafts, these planes needed second-generation of more complex recorders of whose separate functions are still in use today (Rizvi, 2001).

In the year 1965 the world's first FDR & CVR devices came into being. The FDR recorded the planes avionics systems, engines, airframes etc. & the CVR stored all sounds that are audible in the cockpit of the aircraft. Data from both these devices are stored on stacked memory boards inside the crash-survivable memory unit (CSMU) (Gresley, 1997).

The CSMU is a cylindrical compartment on the recorder. The stacked memory boards are about 1.75 inches tall. The length of time that can be stored on these is about 25 hours on the FDR and 3 hours on the CVR. These devices gather information from sensors that gather information such as acceleration, airspeed, altitude, flap settings, outside temperature, cabin temperature and pressure, engine performance and more. All of this data is then sent to the flight data acquisition unit (FDAU). This unit gathers all the information from all over the plane gives it to the right unit for it to store. This unit is generally found under the cockpit bay and is the manager for all the data process from the sensors to the black boxes i.e. it tells the system where to store the data that comes from the various sensors on board the aircraft (Gresley, 1997).

The boxes derive they power from one of the two power generator’s which produces its power from the planes engines. One generator is a 28-volt DC power source and the other is a 115-volt, 400-hertz (Hz) AC power source which are the standard power supplies in a planes engine. In almost every cockpit there are inbuilt microphones that are built to record the conversation in the cockpit. These microphones also track down various others noises such as switches being thrown or any knocks or thuds. All these microphones are connected to the cockpit voice recorder (CVR). These sounds are picked up by these microphones and are then transmitted to the CVR where it is digitized and stored. Another device which is in the cockpit is the associated control unit, which provides pre-amplification for audio going to the CVR. Here are the four positions of the four common microphones.

1. Pilot's headset

2. Co. Pilot's headset

3. Headset of a third crew member (if there is a third crew member)

4. Near the center of the cockpit, where it can pick up audio alerts and other sounds.

Most CVR's store the last 30 minutes of the sounds and conversation that are taken place in the cockpit. This is done by a continuous loop which moves a thirty minute tape around and round so that the old data is removed and the new data is written. Each recorder is fitted with an Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB) so that it can be easier to find when an accident happens over the water. This beacon is called a "pinger" is activated when it is submitted when it is submerged under water. It sends an acoustical sound on a 37.5Khz which can be detected by a special receiver. The beacon can transmit its beacon from about 14,000 feet below the surface.

Once the device is found it is taken to the NTSB headquarters in Washington where the data is processed. The processing is done by special sophisticated machines which converts the signals into an understandable format that can be understood by the "Investigating Officer" who helps the Safety Board in determining the probable cause of the accident. During the investigation a committee is formed consisting of members from the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board), FAA (federal Aviation Authority), operator of the aircraft, manufacturer of the airplane, and the pilot’s unison is formed. This committee makes a written transcript to be used in the investigation. The investigation procedure is one in which many complex time calculations are done. This is achieved by the different time zones that are allocated to the different time zones. This procedure determines where a sequence of events took place. The time sequence is applied to the transcript by the machine. More precise timings for critical events are obtained by using a digital spectrum analyzer. This transcript is made available to the public at the time of the safety board public hearing. The information gathered by these devices are held in the highest confidential manner. As the communication used in the cockpit is of a rather high nature. The congress has required that the Safety board not to release any part of the CVR tape recording. Because of this a high level security is maintained for the CVR and the transcripts.

Below is a specification of a CVR device that is most commonly used.

Time recorded 30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units

Number of channels 4

Impact tolerance 3400 Gs /6.5ms

Fire resistance 1100 deg C /30 min

Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft

Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz

Battery : 6yr shelf life 30 day operation

(abstracted from, Cockpit Voice Recorders…, 2004 )

The following is an ATC transcription of the June 30, 1962 midair collision near Durban , South Africa

Tower-2: Hit something, what is it?

DC-4: I don't know. Just hang on a sec, Mac, we're going to come down as soon as we can.

DC-4: Please keep us in radar contact all the time

Tower-2: Right. That's fine. We're watching you. You're doing fine

DC-4: How are we getting on, from now onwards. (Byrom, 2001)

Tower-2: You are doing fine. You are now eight miles and well seaward of centre line...closing in nicely...Range seven miles. Well to the starboard of the centre line...suggest revised heading of 270 now.

The FDR records many different operating conditions of the flight such as time, altitude, airspeed, heading, and aircraft attitude. This information comes from various areas that are connected to the FDR. When a switch is turned on or off the FDR records that operation. In addition, some FDRs can record the status of more than 300 other in-flight characteristics that can aid in the investigation. With this data the safety board can generate a graphical animation that can help the Investigation Officer to visualize the last moments of the flight before the accident. They create a move like simulation in which engineers and other member so the committee give their own views of what happened and what could be done to further enhance the safety of the aircraft. In America the FAA requires that commercial airlines record a minimum of 11 to 29 parameters, depending on the size of the aircrafts.

"Flight recorders used today employ either magnetic tape or solid-state memory boards, although the trend is toward solid state. The magnetic tape functions like any tape recorder. Solid state recorders are more reliable because they use stacked arrays of memory chips with no moving parts, so there is less need for maintenance, and breakage during a crash is less likely" (Abstracted from SME member manufactures black boxes…, 2000).

The specifications of a Flight Data recorder is

Flight Data Recorder

Time recorded ........................... 25 hour continuous

Number of parameters .............. 5 - 300+

Impact tolerance ....................... 3400Gs /6.5ms

Fire resistance ........................... 1100 degC/30 min

Water pressure resistance ......... submerged 20,000 ft

Underwater locator beacon ...... 37.5 KHz

Battery : 6yr shelf life

30 day operation

(abstracted from, NTSB - FBR & CVR, July 9, 2004 http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm)

The only devices to survive a crash are the Crash-survivable memory units (CSMU's) of the flight data recorders and the cockpit voice recorders. This unit is a large centrically unit that can withstand extreme temperatures, violent crashes and tons of pressure. To provide a barrier to this unit there is a three level protection layers

In order for a Black Box recorder to be of any use at all, the memory unit will need to withstand the impact caused by several tones of airplane free falling thousands of feet into unknown terrain. Therefore, it is quite clear that the 'box' must be well engineered to protect what is inside from impact shock, penetration and crushing as well as fire and possibly deep sea submersion. For this reason, they are very strenuously tested.

One such group which tests these 'Boxes' are Engineers at the University of Dayton Research Institute. Kevin Poorman, a mechanical engineer in the group, designs and conducts an impact shock test to monitor how a black box react under crash conditions. Manufacturers fund them to test their own new or improved black boxes. There are several ways in which the CSMU is tested. We have to remember that only the CSMU is the only thing that needs to survive a crash. Once this is saved the experts can then derive the information and proceed further with the investigation. In testing this device data is loaded in the memory boards and a series of tests are conducted. The data is then examined by the experts at the end of the tests. Some of the tests that a CSMU goes through are:

Crash Impact : Researchers shoot the CSMU down an air canon to create an impact of 3,400 Gs. (1 G is the force of earth's gravity so at 3,400 Gs the CSMU hits a honeycomb target at a force equal to 3400 times its weight. This impact is in excess than what a CSMU might face at an actual crash.

Pin drop - To test the unit's penetration resistance, researchers drop a 500-pound (227-kg) weight with a 0.25-inch steel pin protruding from the bottom onto the CSMU from a height of 10 feet (3 m). This pin, with 500-pounds behind it, impacts the CSMU cylinder's most vulnerable axis.

Static crush - For five minutes, researchers apply 5,000 pounds per square-inch (psi) of crush force to each of the unit's six major axis points.

Fire test - Researchers place the unit into a propane-source fireball, cooking it using three burners. The unit sits inside the fire at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit (1,100 C) for one hour. The FAA requires that all solid-state recorders be able to survive at least one hour at this temperature.

Deep-sea submersion - The CSMU is placed into a pressurized tank of salt water for 24 hours.

Salt-water submersion - The CSMU must survive in a salt water tank for 30 days.

Fluid immersion - Various CSMU components are placed into a variety of aviation fluids, including jet fuel, lubricants and fire-extinguisher chemicals (Gresley, 1997).

The heart of a recorder is the Crash Survivable Memory Unit (CSMU). Inside it is the memory on which the data (voice or flight) is stored. In order to protect it so that it will pass the above tests, the following steps are taken when making the Black Box. The box itself is like a thick shell of amour made from stainless steel or titanium. Inside this is a layer of heat proof material which protects what's inside it from fire. Wrapped around the memory chips is another thermal material but this one is wax like and needs to be peeled off in the event of a crash to gain access to the data. The other things which make up the Black Box are the power supply and an underwater location beacon which sends out an audio signal for a month when immersed in water.

However strong they may be, black boxes do not always survive crashes and every time a recorder fails during a crash, the 'Federal Aviation Authority' will mandate new survivability requirements based on the circumstances.

Black boxes are usually sold to and installed by airplane manufacturers. Both these black boxes are installed in the tail of the plane. They are kept there as this increases they chance of survival. The precise location of the recorders depends on the individual plane. Sometimes there are even located in the ceiling of the gallery, in the aft cargo hold or in the tail cone that covers the rear end of the plane. As in an emergency an airplane nose dives towards the ground and the most impact is always felt on the front side of the airplane whereas the tail end receives the least or minimal damage than the rest of the plane ( Buck, 1994) .

Both the FDR and CVR are invaluable tools for any aircraft investigation. These are often the lone survivors of airplane accidents, and as such provide important clues to the cause that would be impossible to obtain any other way. As technology evolves, black boxes will continue to play a tremendous role in accident investigations.

Airplanes are not the only form of transportation to be equipped with black boxes. If auto insurance producers get their way, they’ll soon be harnessing this tool to reduce risk management (Barlay, 1970) .

Motorists may not know it, but their brand-new vehicle may be equipped with a black box just like those traditionally installed on aircraft. Car manufacturers now equip most new vehicles with one of these devices. Why? To gather information about seat belts, air bags and the force of impacts resulting from collisions, in a quest to build safer vehicles. These small devices may also be a boon for insurers. Black boxes contain a gold mine of information about the driving habits of motorists. In the five seconds leading up to an accident, they capture varied data such as vehicle speed, the position of the accelerator and the use of brakes; information that is worth big bucks to insurers. Some insurers believe that once this technology reaches maturity, it will let them better manage auto insurance risks. They also hope to fine-tune pricing, trim compensation for false declarations and identify drivers who are responsible for accidents. Apparently, motorists that cover on average 40,000 km per year have a much higher potential for accidents than those that drive 15,000 km or less. This device could also be used to track down cars when stolen and help the authority to get them back. High Government Officials and people who deal in sensitive nature and their jobs require them to be tracked wherever they go will find that this instrument could be the answer to all their problems ( Buck, 1994) .

ABSTRACT: This September 17, 2001 article from Automotive News cites that a panel of experts has concluded that widespread use of black boxes in cars and trucks would advance motor vehicle safety, but added that thorny questions remain about self-incrimination and privacy. (Source: Automotive News, by Harry Stoffer on September 17, 2001)

Conclusion: The Invention is the most important factor providing a tool in the hands of investigators after a disastrous and catastrophic crash. It helps in determining the causes which led to the crash. Normally there are either human or instrumental. If they are human the determination can lead to a better training for the future pilots including avoidance of fatigue due to over an excessive duty hours.

If the cause is instrumental and technical, which is very often the case, it will lead to improved designing in future aircrafts besides correcting the defects in existing fleets around the world especially of the type and make of the aircraft involved in the crash.

All around us, failure is being read; divined from the bones of the technological dead—design thus marches on. No product is ever perfect, but failure pushes us toward perfection, and every form is a compromise between the failure of yesterday and the promise of tomorrow. The human body itself is in this threshold zone: In societies not marked by endemic war or poverty, one can assume to live longer than one's forebears, but not perhaps as long as one's successors. The form keeps evolving. The human body, with its myriad sensors and indicators, its inner workings kept carefully concealed and rarely considered, may be the ultimate black box. The lesson, for either man or machine, is clear: None of us outlive our data.

Angela, anyone without even two brain cells to rub can be patriotic, but it's extremely hard to think globally - that's the exact need of the day - to fight stupidity and fascism.

I haven't read your post. It's just a bit too long and seems to be a copy and paste job from some typical Washington Gang propoganda.

Could you just enlighten us, please, as to why a WHODUNNIT public enquiry has not thus far been held - despite considerable demands from US academics, eminent writers, thinkers and including General Wesley Clark and whole range of other people?

Such enquiry will solve a lot of riddles and will be more in the American public's interest than of anyone else in the world.

You will have to forgive us, it's extremely sad and not entirely our fault BUT we fail and also now refuse to believe any word put out by your government or government affiliated agencies and persons - after a few recent dosees of extremely colourful lies. You would agree (if you stepped out of your suoer US Patriotism for less than two minutes) that only fools and horses would take anything put up by the US serious after our great Secretary of State's Power Point performance at the UN for the Iraq war.

It will benefit the American people to think:

if your government could lie to you on such matters, push 2,000 young American men and women to hell (or heaven since some have now started to sell them off as shaheeds!) and terminally damage over 22,000 of their own young blood for life - forget about the 100,000 or so dead "others"

could this government not produce an incidence to staep towards this war??

I am a flyer. I got my PPL long before someone ever allowed me to drive the car out of the estate. I have many friends in the US, many of them flyers, some also connected with the USAF. I have checked - the jets were NEVER scrambled. And, for a whole of 58 minutes.

There are many other holes, but you will see through them once you stopped being just an American and start a few human cells in you.

Survivability Requirements

Events that would damage the recorders sufficiently to make them unreadable are extremely rare. NTSB spokesperson Ted Lopatkiewicz said that he couldn't recall a domestic case before 9/11/01 in which the recorders were not recovered. ^{http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html#ref5 - http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html#ref6 - and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.}

How could a indestructible metal protected blackbox completely be destroyed, while passports made up of paper survive?

Perhaps you never saw "Forest Gump". In the titles, the feather keeps dropping, dropping and dropping for ever, in slow motion. Or, perhaps the Saudi passports are made of some indestructible material.

Whatever. Don't you think it should be in the best interest of the American public to at least know WHODUNNIT? Specially with the deceptive track record of this administration + the laughable Intel capability.

Other than that what they think or don't think on this matter does NOT really matter to us.

Does multiplying it really make it more impressive? To sensitive people even one death is too many.

We hold no desire of convincing you or the need to win some votes in the states at all. It does NOT effect us one way or the other. We know where we stand on this and other issues with the US. It will be in your own best interest, as a nation, to know what actually happened.

Good luck, no one has any need to push anything down your throats.

Frankly Whisper, the article I sent to you was written a while ago and had nothing to do with 9/11.  It was simply a scientific article on black boxes.  Of course, since you didn't read it, you wouldn't know that.  Funny how you base your arguments without checking the facts. 

Great! Then GIVE us the proof that the Muzlims did it. INDEPENDENT PROOF. Not from your faulty, dead, gone past its sell by date sort of Intel services.

Actual proof.

Frankly Whisper, the article I sent to you was written a while ago and had nothing to do with 9/11.  It was simply a scientific article on black boxes.  Of course, since you didn't read it, you wouldn't know that.  Funny how you base your arguments without checking the facts. 

Angela, I respect not just your thought, your sentiment and also your lines. They don't smell. They vibe of genuine concern at the human level. Unlike some others they are not just meant to provoke and sound as if some football stadium like macho US best of all arrogant roars.

Just forget about what I say or I don't say - for a minute. Forget about us, we are now bound to fight the US of A in a war that has been promised to be without an end. (a dream war for the weapons industry, Halliburton, the lot) I don't have to tell you who is making "what" out of Iraq "reconstruction".

Tell me would it not be in your own best interest to find out who did it?

I promise you, to me it doesn't matter at all.

So OBL and AQ owned the incident?

Just in your dreams and in the American media.

It's no use furnishing any globally accepted truth to any NeoCon stoneheads yet for general Public benefit:

1. Mullah Omer had agreed to place OBL in the custody of any mutually acceptable THIRD country provided that the US government just showed even some shadow of proof to the effect that OBL or any of his party were involved in 9/11.

2. If Muslims delight at the incident is the proof of their guilt then you must also include the Yugoslavs and perhaps some Latin American nations as well. I was in Turkey when it happened. A few days later I travelled to Belgrad - the Slavs were in sheer delight.

3. OBL told his closest colleagues, till his dying day (he died of kidney failure, over a year and a half ago. Your admin knows it. Has it shared this with you? Why are they keeping it such a secret?) could NOT work out who had done it.

4. So, the governments have never enacted anything in utter secret? No pacts, no deals or acts out of the sight of their own people?

If they are so open and clear in all their dealings then WHY DO THEY ARCHIVE SOME MATERIAL TO BE AVAILABLE ONLY IN 30, 50 OR 75 YEARS?

I dont believe a word of the American Government oficial story,

Even Gen Wesley Clark or, for that matter, half of the world doesn't. Most of the US academics don't. Wonder when they all will be declared terrorists?

I am extremely sorry, Bruce, your post is again flowing in all those alleys. If you wish to see the truth of the matter, you will not shirk from examining all possibilities just for your own national good.

What you believe bothers us not.

http://novakeo.com/?p=262 - Consider this , Bruce.

Rami wrote:

Perhaps the moral guidelines of this forum should also extend to discouraging the spreading of  far-fetched, conspiracy theories. Because this type of material will obviously receive the deserved scrutiny of those not so easily seduced by such fantastically imaginative drivel.

I'm no expert, but I don't believe that Islam condones the spreading of wild conspiracy theories. It probably doesn't make a specific pronouncement on the subject, but I doubt if such behaviour would be considered desirable by most adherents of Islam.

Anyhow, the fact that this an Islamic forum shouldn't really be relevant in the context of disagreements about the promotion of conspiracy theories on this site. If you are suggesting that non-Muslims should remain silent on the posting of such theories, then you have the right as a moderator to remove our posts or even ban us, but if you do, don't be surprised if fellow members from whatever faith, question the motives of such actions.

That is your view, and you are welcome to it.

You have every right to post this stuff. No one is suggesting it should be removed but people should have the right to counter it without being subjected to thinly veiled threats of banning particularly your mentioning of the fate of Rehmat (Who was I believe, banned for spamming the forum with anti-Semetic and racist posts).

See above.

Anyone here has the right to counter fellow members posts, that is what a discussion forum is all about, isn't it?, Of course it should be conducted in a civilised manner.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by "non muslim posting theories", but perhaps it would help if you did a little research before pasting in some of the more exotic stuff that you post. For example, the article about Jews being tipped off before the recent bombings in Jordan. Which with a little prior investigation would have shown it for what it was, a completely false story. These false stories quite often end up as conspiracy theories that get believed by the terminally gullible and recorded as hard fact in the annals of propagandist history. Just take a look at all the online trash that was spewed out after 9/11.

I don't know what you mean by this Rami, but for the record, I'm on the side of moderation and objectivity.