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1948 Creation & Catastrophe

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Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28091
Printed Date: 01 October 2014 at 3:47am


Topic: 1948 Creation & Catastrophe
Posted By: semar
Subject: 1948 Creation & Catastrophe
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 10:54am
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1056533178/1948-creation-and-catastrophe%20 - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1056533178/1948-creation-and-catastrophe
 
1948 Creation & Catastrophe Project
 
1948 realized a dream: a Jewish state. But creation led to catastrophe - over 700,000 Palestinians lost their homes, never to return.

The year 1948 saw the establishment of the state of Israel, the culmination of generations of Jewish persecution across Europe and Russia. But that same year proved catastrophic for the Palestinians - 700,000 to 900,000 men, women and children were forced to leave their homes and never allowed to return. This was the most pivotal year in the most controversial conflict in the world, but it is almost never mentioned on American television, radio, or newspaper stories.  This is your opportunity to change that.

In working on this project, we have traveled to Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, the US and the UK. We have interviewed dozens of Israelis and Palestinians who experienced 1948 first-hand: militia fighters, civilians, people who were forced to flee their homes, and those who made sure the refugees would never return. These are stories that deserve to be told. Right now, you can give these people the opportunity to tell their story to a Western audience – something that they have been largely denied for their entire lives.

 
Project by
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1056533178/1948-creation-and-catastrophe/creator_bio - Andy Trimlett

https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/places/san-diego-ca - San Diego, CA https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1056533178/1948-creation-and-catastrophe/messages/new?message%5Bto%5D=1056533178 - Contact me



-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"



Replies:
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 11:37am
Question
It is so convenient to overlook the fact that the palestinians would not have lost their homes had the Arabs not declared a war against the new state.
I will be interested to see the finished project.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


[IMG]smileys/smiley25.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Question" />It is so convenient to overlook the fact that the palestinians would not have lost their homes had not the Arabs declared a war against the new state.I will be interested to see the finished project.




Huh who created war??????you better get your facts right or you heading for some real hard hitting facts which you do not have a clue as to what happened in 1948.
Ismail


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

It is so convenient to overlook the fact that the palestinians would not have lost their homes had not the Arabs declared a war against the new state.I will be interested to see the finished project.


Also, the Palestinians who remained in Israel during the 1948 war have full citizenship. Currently, around 21% of Israeli citizens are of Arab ancestry, and many thousand more Arabs who live in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are eligible for Israeli citizenship, if they want it, but they instead choose to live as "permanent residents".


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by iec786

Originally posted by Caringheart


[IMG]smileys/smiley25.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Question" />It is so convenient to overlook the fact that the palestinians would not have lost their homes had not the Arabs declared a war against the new state.I will be interested to see the finished project.




Huh who created war??????you better get your facts right or you heading for some real hard hitting facts which you do not have a clue as to what happened in 1948.
Ismail


What can you expect from such people?  Facts don't matter to them.

About the 1948 war, scholar Noam Chomsky clears up the myths that people like "Caringheart" peddle:

"Syria in 1949 offered a full peace treaty to Israel, which Israel rejected. There are good indications that the Arab states did not want to go to war in May 1948. Nahum Goldmann was opposed to declaring the state, and his reason was not that he was against a Jewish state. You see, the state was actually declared prior to the time when the Partition Recommendation proposed it. It was advanced. Goldmann's proposal was that they should hold off, and he always held throughout his entire life that, had he done that, they would have avoided war. Flapan tries to explore that in his book. His own conception is that Goldmann knew that the Arab states would accept a proposal if it was worked out properly, and he thought they should have explored that path. But Ben Gurion and other leaders were pretty confident. They thought they would be able to grab some land. There was a period of about 10 days from about May 14 to May 24 when it was touch and go; it wasn't at all clear how it was going to work out. But aside from that 10-day period, there was no doubt who was going to win." ( http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/198805--.htm - http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/198805--.htm )

And according to the group "Jews for Justice in the Middle East":

"“Arab rejection was...based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body — a settlement which no self-respecting people would accept without protest, to say the least...The action of the United Nations conflicted with the basic principles for which the world organization was established, namely, to uphold the right of all peoples to self-determination. By denying the Palestine Arabs, who formed the two-thirds majority of the country, the right to decide for themselves, the United Nations had violated its own charter.”" ( http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html - http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html )

These are the facts, which people like "caringheart" seem to be unaware of or deliberately hide.  They hypocritically preach "love and peace" yet make excuses for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.  Even if the Arabs had started the 1948 war, how does that justify the massacres that occurred at the hands of Zionist militias like the Irgun terrorists?  How does that excuse ethnically cleansing the Arab population?   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 4:18pm
islamispeace wrote: How does that excuse ethnically cleansing the Arab population?

What ethnic cleansing???

If the Jews are guilty of ethnic cleansing, then why is it that over 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims?


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep


What ethnic cleansing???

If the Jews are guilty of ethnic cleansing, then why is it that over 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims?


Textbook Hasbara. Arabs are "Israeli citizens" as much as blacks were American citizens in the post-reconstruction south, notwithstanding the fact that ethnic cleansing/mass murder, has nothing to do with Israeli Arabs. In other words, to say ethnic cleansing could not have taken place because there are Arabs with "Israeli citizenship" isn't intellectually honest. And frankly speaking when it comes to the State of Israel the default for even fair-minded people is to make excuses and equivocate.   


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

islamispeace wrote: How does that excuse ethnically cleansing the Arab population?

What ethnic cleansing???

If the Jews are guilty of ethnic cleansing, then why is it that over 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims?


Um, Arabs were the majority before the founding of Israel.  Now they are a minority.  That's not ethnic cleansing?

What do you think the expulsion of 750,000 people is?  What do you think the massacres and rapes that occurred at the hands of the Zionist terrorists was?  Ever hear of Deir Yassin?

As Israeli historian Ilan Pappe has written, Zionists leaders launched a well-planned operation to drive out many Arabs out as possible:

"Once the plan was finalized, it took six months to complete the mission.
When it was over, more than half of Palestine’s native population, over 750,000 people, had been uprooted, 531 villages had been destroyed, and 11 urban neighborhoods had been emptied of their inhabitants. The plan decided upon on 10 March 1948, and above all its systematic implementation in the following months, was a clear case of what is now known as an ethnic cleansing operation." ( http://palestine-studies.org/enakba/exodus/Pappe,%20The%20Ethnic%20Cleansing%20of%20Palestine.pdf - http://palestine-studies.org/enakba/exodus/Pappe,%20The%20Ethnic%20Cleansing%20of%20Palestine.pdf )

This is called ethnic cleansing.  You can try to hide the facts all you want. 

People who deny that the Holocaust occurred are rightfully ridiculed as ignorant nut-jobs.  I assume you know where I am going with this. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 8:12pm
Ilan Pappe

"Intimate and strong friendships with Palestinians and the newly declassified material in the archives
produced my new look at the 1948 war."

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 10:00pm
“Israeli Apartheid: A Beginner's Guide”
Ben White


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 7:44am
Putting aside for the moment the issue of "who did what to who" during the 1948 Israel Arab war, there's a related matter that I find both fascinating and depressing.

Total deaths during the 1948 war were around 14,000, half Jewish and half Arab. The total number of displaced Arabs was around 725,000.

Let's compare this to the war currently raging in Syria. Approximately 140,000 people (the vast majority Muslim) have died in this war. Over 2.5 million Syrians have taken refuge in neighbouring countries, and an additional 6.5 million Syrians are displaced within Syria, out of a total Syrian population of around 23 million people.

By any standard, the consequences of the Syrian war are far worse than the consequences of the 1948 war. Also, the 1948 war was over sixty years ago, while the Syrian war is ongoing. There is nothing modern day muslims can do to change the result of the 1948 war, but there is a lot they could do to help the people of Syria.

The paradox is that, while modern day muslims continue to obsess over the events of sixty years ago, they seem to have little concern or compassion for the people currently suffering in Syria.

The question is: why???


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 10:03am
So the equivocation continues unabated. Certainly there is nothing we can do about 1948, save accept historical facts, but where is the "concern" and "compassion" for what is taking place today inside Israel? I would think decency would dictate compassion for all human suffering, and why you would suggest otherwise is troubling, but understandable. Us against the "other" mentality.


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 11:41am
Abuayisha wrote: ...what is taking place today inside Israel?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Things have been fairly quiet in Israel in recent years. Off hand, I can't think of any problems within Israel which are significantly worse than the normal problems other countries of the world have. Israel is certainly calmer than their surrounding neighbours such as Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, and the West Bank.

Can you be more specific?


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 1:13pm
Listen, let's just say, that friends shouldn't allow friends to drive drunk. Those who are really concerned for the State of Israel should be not be afraid to advise and hold them accountable. And I think people of conscious are indeed beginning to sanction, boycott and divest in order to save the Israelis from their own reckless behavior.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Listen, let's just say, that friends shouldn't allow friends to drive drunk.

That sounds so very american. Wink

Originally posted by abuayisha

And I think people of conscious are indeed beginning to sanction, boycott and divest in order to save the Israelis from their own reckless behavior.

I think I agree with you.
But I do believe they need allies to defend against those who would make their existence impossible...
they just need to be held accountable to good high standards.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Putting aside for the moment the issue of "who did what to who" during the 1948 Israel Arab war, there's a related matter that I find both fascinating and depressing.

Total deaths during the 1948 war were around 14,000, half Jewish and half Arab. The total number of displaced Arabs was around 725,000.

Let's compare this to the war currently raging in Syria. Approximately 140,000 people (the vast majority Muslim) have died in this war. Over 2.5 million Syrians have taken refuge in neighbouring countries, and an additional 6.5 million Syrians are displaced within Syria, out of a total Syrian population of around 23 million people.

By any standard, the consequences of the Syrian war are far worse than the consequences of the 1948 war. Also, the 1948 war was over sixty years ago, while the Syrian war is ongoing. There is nothing modern day muslims can do to change the result of the 1948 war, but there is a lot they could do to help the people of Syria.

The paradox is that, while modern day muslims continue to obsess over the events of sixty years ago, they seem to have little concern or compassion for the people currently suffering in Syria.

The question is: why???


So instead of sticking to the topic and admitting that you said something incredibly dumb and inaccurate about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, you decide to change the topic and rant about something completely unrelated.  Bravo.

By the way, your comments about Muslim concern for Syria is also dumb and inaccurate.  Many Muslims have been doing what they can to help our brothers and sisters in Syria.  Some have donated.  Others have gone into Syria, putting themselves at risk, to deliver much needed aid.  So, do everyone a favor and don't open your mouth when you have no idea what you are talking about. 

You say that the 1948 war was over 60 years ago.  Good, at least you can count!  But what's your point?  Just because it was in the past, we should forget about it even if the consequences are still affecting millions of refugees?  You know, the Holocaust was also more than 60 years ago.  Should we forget about that too?  You know, don't live in the past, look to the future? 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abuayisha wrote: ...what is taking place today inside Israel?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Things have been fairly quiet in Israel in recent years. Off hand, I can't think of any problems within Israel which are significantly worse than the normal problems other countries of the world have. Israel is certainly calmer than their surrounding neighbours such as Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, and the West Bank.

Can you be more specific?


Here is a little bedtime reading:

http://www.alternet.org/story/113143/israels_crime_against_humanity - http://www.alternet.org/story/113143/israel%27s_%27crime_against_humanity%27

http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/blog/new-york-jews-challenge-michael-oren-to-halt-bedouin-displacement-at-0 - http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/blog/new-york-jews-challenge-michael-oren-to-halt-bedouin-displacement-at-0

http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence - http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence

I wonder how you would react if you had to experience what the Palestinians have been experiencing for more than 60 years.  I am sure the hypocrite in you would be flabbergasted and angry if someone damaged your property and demolished your home.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Ilan Pappe

"Intimate and strong friendships with Palestinians and the newly declassified material in the archives
produced my new look at the 1948 war."


Great post!  Short and pointless! 

What's your point?  You tried to excuse the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.  You were refuted and exposed as a shameless hypocrite who talks "love and peace" but who then tries to excuse crimes against humanity when it involves Israel.   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Ilan Pappe
"Intimate and strong friendships with Palestinians and the newly declassified material in the archives
produced my new look at the 1948 war."

Great post!  Short and pointless! 

What's your point?  You tried to excuse the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.  You were refuted and exposed as a shameless hypocrite who talks "love and peace" but who then tries to excuse crimes against humanity when it involves Israel.   

Greetings islam...,

You really should look to see what it is that has you so hate filled and see what you might do about it. Confused

The point was...
you posted a link...
I read the link...
I found the link helpful...
I pointed out that things have come to light in the last few years, so the picture is changing...

You decided to display hatred towards me. Ermm

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


I wonder how you would react if you had to experience what the Palestinians have been experiencing for more than 60 years.  I am sure the hypocrite in you would be flabbergasted and angry if someone damaged your property and demolished your home.

Why do some people insist on acting as though no one else has ever been through a war, lost land, homes, and life?  Why have other people decided to recover?  Is there a nation on earth where people have not suffered loss due to war at one time or another?
asalaam.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



...they just need to be held accountable to good high standards.


Yes, very true, which is why many of the fiercest critics of the occupation are the Jewish people themselves. Because they realize when the Israeli army control even the caloric count , starving the people of Gaza, of Palestinian Muslims and Christians, that this injustice smacks of the same treatment Jews suffered in the ghetto of Warsaw. Indeed we join with all people of moral conscious to hold Israel to good high standards.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Ilan Pappe
"Intimate and strong friendships with Palestinians and the newly declassified material in the archives
produced my new look at the 1948 war."

Great post!  Short and pointless! 

What's your point?  You tried to excuse the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.  You were refuted and exposed as a shameless hypocrite who talks "love and peace" but who then tries to excuse crimes against humanity when it involves Israel.   

Greetings islam...,

You really should look to see what it is that has you so hate filled and see what you might do about it. Confused

The point was...
you posted a link...
I read the link...
I found the link helpful...
I pointed out that things have come to light in the last few years, so the picture is changing...

You decided to display hatred towards me. Ermm

Salaam,
Caringheart


Yes, I do hate phonies and hypocrites!  Big%20smile

Anyway, are you saying that you were mistaken about the 1948 war and that you have been biased about the whole conflict?  Yes or no?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


I wonder how you would react if you had to experience what the Palestinians have been experiencing for more than 60 years.  I am sure the hypocrite in you would be flabbergasted and angry if someone damaged your property and demolished your home.

Why do some people insist on acting as though no one else has ever been through a war, lost land, homes, and life?  Why have other people decided to recover?  Is there a nation on earth where people have not suffered loss due to war at one time or another?
asalaam.


Oh well.  I just asked whether you felt that you were biased about the conflict and I guess we have the answer. 

Instead of acknowledging that the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance against Israel, you try to shamelessly suggest that they should just forgive and forget.  How exactly are the Palestinians supposed "to recover"?  I wonder if you were in their position, woulld you follow your own advice.  Hypocrisy is an ugly thing!

I call on any Christian on this forum who is not blinded by self-righteous hypocrisy to make their voices heard.  I know you are out there.  We have already seen that many Jews have opposed Zionism.  Indeed, Zionism is not synonymous with Judaism.  There are many good Jewish people who have spoken out against the crimes of the Israeli state, just as there are many good Muslims who have spoken out against the violence perpetrated against innocent Jews.   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Originally posted by Caringheart



...they just need to be held accountable to good high standards.


Yes, very true, which is why many of the fiercest critics of the occupation are the Jewish people themselves. Because they realize when the Israeli army control even the caloric count , starving the people of Gaza, of Palestinian Muslims and Christians, that this injustice smacks of the same treatment Jews suffered in the ghetto of Warsaw. Indeed we join with all people of moral conscious to hold Israel to good high standards.


Exactly!  Well said.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

  Is there a nation on earth where people have not suffered loss due to war at one time or another?
asalaam.

 I wonder if you were in their position, woulld you follow your own advice.

I have said before...
I have lost everything unjustly in my life...
I chose to recover...
to devote my energies to starting new... not in fighting the past, and living a life of destruction and desolation.  I took my energy, picked myself by my frayed bootstraps, and built new.
Salaam.

note:  I wonder, what have you lost in your life, as you sit in judgement, accusing others of hypocrisy?  Easy for those to egg on the battle, who aren't engaged in the war.... when they sit from a comfortable distance.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

  Is there a nation on earth where people have not suffered loss due to war at one time or another?
asalaam.

 I wonder if you were in their position, woulld you follow your own advice.

I have said before...
I have lost everything unjustly in my life...
I chose to recover...
to devote my energies to starting new... not in fighting the past, and living a life of destruction and desolation.  I took my energy, picked myself by my frayed bootstraps, and built new.
Salaam.

note:  I wonder, what have you lost in your life, as you sit in judgement, accusing others of hypocrisy?  Easy for those to egg on the battle, who aren't engaged in the war.... when they sit from a comfortable distance.


Hah!  You accuse me of "sitting in judgment" when I am not the one asking the victims of war crimes to "recover" and "not fight the past"!  I don't know your personal story but I doubt that what you have suffered is akin to the suffering of multiple generations of Palestinians or any other group of people that have been victimized.  I doubt that victims of the Holocaust can be compared to your struggles.  You have to be pretty arrogant to "sit in judgment" and ask people who have suffered inhuman tortures to simply "recover".  I asked you before.  How exactly are the Palestinians supposed to "recover", especially in the atmosphere of the brutal Israeli occupation and settler violence?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 February 2014 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart


I have said before...
I have lost everything unjustly in my life...
I chose to recover...
to devote my energies to starting new... not in fighting the past, and living a life of destruction and desolation.  I took my energy, picked myself by my frayed bootstraps, and built new.
Salaam.

note:  I wonder, what have you lost in your life, as you sit in judgement, accusing others of hypocrisy?  Easy for those to egg on the battle, who aren't engaged in the war.... when they sit from a comfortable distance.


You do judge.  You do not listen.  You do not know me.  You have no idea.
As I asked... have you ever suffered loss?

Here are a few entries from my personal journal to help you, maybe, understand... if you can lay aside your animosity and really listen.

“Every day, in life, is beautiful”

- Alice Herz-Sommer, the world’s oldest holocaust survivor

How can someone who has seen the worst of mankind hold onto this view
… more important… why can I not?

___________________________

Therefore fear not when pain and tribulation loom before you,
when the wild ocean waves threaten to turn and engulf your little ship.
- Christian Metz, 1825

~ seasons change, so do I ~
___________________________

Wait on the LORD:
be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart:
wait, I say, on the LORD.
  -  Psalm 27:14
___________________________________

Sometimes, just when the wind turns coldest, if we will just wait…
the cloud passes, and the sun returns…
and warmth.   -  C.Lynn
______________________________

~ the battle’s not over,
till I get home ~

Continue the battle, withstand all suffering and trial, survive until the end;
then you will receive the crown of honor. – Johann Friedrich Rock, 1741

__________________________________

These are only the recent ones.

asalaam.




-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 28 February 2014 at 8:16am
http://www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?id=6636


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 28 February 2014 at 10:38am
Islamispeace wrote: Here is a little bedtime reading...

Really, that's the best you could do? I could easily come up with atrocities committed by individual Israeli Jews and even the Israeli Government which are many times worse than your examples.

I don't think any of the issues raised in your links requires a rebuttal. If those are the worse examples of behavior you can come up with, then clearly your opinion of the Israeli government is much more favourable than my opinion. I think you should expect a much higher standard of behavior out of the Israeli government than you apparently do.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 10:36am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart


I have said before...
I have lost everything unjustly in my life...
I chose to recover...
to devote my energies to starting new... not in fighting the past, and living a life of destruction and desolation.  I took my energy, picked myself by my frayed bootstraps, and built new.
Salaam.

note:  I wonder, what have you lost in your life, as you sit in judgement, accusing others of hypocrisy?  Easy for those to egg on the battle, who aren't engaged in the war.... when they sit from a comfortable distance.


You do judge.  You do not listen.  You do not know me.  You have no idea.
As I asked... have you ever suffered loss?

Here are a few entries from my personal journal to help you, maybe, understand... if you can lay aside your animosity and really listen.

“Every day, in life, is beautiful”

- Alice Herz-Sommer, the world’s oldest holocaust survivor

How can someone who has seen the worst of mankind hold onto this view
… more important… why can I not?

___________________________

Therefore fear not when pain and tribulation loom before you,
when the wild ocean waves threaten to turn and engulf your little ship.
- Christian Metz, 1825

~ seasons change, so do I ~
___________________________

Wait on the LORD:
be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart:
wait, I say, on the LORD.
  -  Psalm 27:14
___________________________________

Sometimes, just when the wind turns coldest, if we will just wait…
the cloud passes, and the sun returns…
and warmth.   -  C.Lynn
______________________________

~ the battle’s not over,
till I get home ~

Continue the battle, withstand all suffering and trial, survive until the end;
then you will receive the crown of honor. – Johann Friedrich Rock, 1741

__________________________________

These are only the recent ones.

asalaam.




You think that because you have suffered loss, that gives you the right to judge those who have suffered even more?  Show me one person in this world who has NOT suffered some sort of loss? 

You asked me if I have suffered loss.  Of course I have!  All of us have!  I loved my grandfather.  I didn't even know when he died overseas because my parents did not tell me until 6 years later when I found out by accident.  A couple of years before his death, one of my uncles had died.  As I was only 10 years old, I didn't take the death very well. So, I guess my parents were afraid that if they told me about my grandfather, my reaction would be one of devastation.  Every person who has ever lived has suffered some sort of loss.  You are not unique. 

My point is that I am not the one judging Palestinians and urging them to "recover".  I don't presume to tell people who have suffered much more than I could ever imagine to "recover".  In fact, whenever I feel like things are not going right in my life, I always remind myself that I have no right to complain.  People living in Africa, Asia and other places have it much worse, and yet they are enduring, so why can't I? 

Like I said, I don't know you or what you have gone through, but I don't tell you to get over it.  You are the one saying that about the Palestinians.  You said some incredibly dumb things about the whole conflict.  You were refuted yet you have yet to say "yes, I was wrong".  You claimed that the Arabs started the 1948 war.  You were refuted.  Your fellow hypocrite, reepicheep, questioned whether the Palestinians had been ethnically-cleansed.  He was refuted.  Yet, neither one of you has the integrity to say "yes, I was wrong".  Instead, you have tried to change the subject or try to put yourself in a moral position to judge others. 

If you think that you have the right to judge the Palestinians, then I recommend that you go to the Gaza Strip or the West Bank and live there for a few years and see how you like it.  I frankly doubt that your attitude will be the same if you were to lose your entire family to a missile attack or see your all your crops burned by violent settlers.  You are the one "sitting in judgment", not me.  You are a shameless hypocrite. 

You still have not answered my question: how exactly are the Palestinians supposed to "recover"?  Any bright ideas?  It's easy to say stuff.  It's quite another to say something that will make a difference. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Islamispeace wrote: Here is a little bedtime reading...

Really, that's the best you could do? I could easily come up with atrocities committed by individual Israeli Jews and even the Israeli Government which are many times worse than your examples.

I don't think any of the issues raised in your links requires a rebuttal. If those are the worse examples of behavior you can come up with, then clearly your opinion of the Israeli government is much more favourable than my opinion. I think you should expect a much higher standard of behavior out of the Israeli government than you apparently do.


This is a typical response from you.  You don't even realize the utter st**idity and irony of your response.  First, let me just say that for you to think that Israel's crippling blockade of Gaza and the toll it is taking on the children is not the worst "example of behavior", then you are one sick person.  To quote one of the links:

"The statistics gathered on children—half of Gaza’s population is under the age of 17—are increasingly grim. About 45 percent of children in Gaza have iron deficiency from a lack of fruit and vegetables, and 18 percent have stunted growth."

The other example of Israel's continuing criminal practices is the destruction of Bedouin homes.  That also does not seem to bother you.  Settler violence against Palestinian farmers and the Israeli government's refusal to stop it does not seem to bother you.

But what is most ironic about your reply is that you think that Israel has committed far worse crimes!  If that is the case, which I agree it is, then why have you thus far been making excuses for Israel?  Why have you been denying that Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing?  What kind of a person are you?

By the way, I saw your thread on your congregation's donations to Syria.  Great work!  I don't mean to impugn your efforts, but I would just like to ask: has your congregation sent any aid to the Palestinians?  Any aid to the West Bank or the Gaza Strip?  If so, well done!  If not, why? 

The mosques in my area have sent aid all over the world, from Haiti to Syria.  One mosque also has an annual program during Christmas to collect toys and clothing to give to the local churches to distribute to needy families during the holidays.   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 11:20am
Islamispeace, your posts do contain elements of truth, but alas, the truth is hidden by half truths, outright lies, and irrational conclusions.

For example, you condemn Israel for the (supposedly) "crippling blockade" of Gaza. But doesn't Egypt also share a border with Gaza? Isn't Egypt, too, guilty of blockading Gaza? Doesn't every one of the claims you make against Israel (whether true or false) also apply to Egypt? Why do you condemn Israel but not Egypt?

If there are particular topics you wish to discuss (for example, Gaza), then I suggest you open new threads dedicated to those topics, and depending on how rational your points are, I'll consider making reply.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 11:34am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Islamispeace, your posts do contain elements of truth, but alas, the truth is hidden by half truths, outright lies, and irrational conclusions.

For example, you condemn Israel for the (supposedly) "crippling blockade" of Gaza. But doesn't Egypt also share a border with Gaza? Isn't Egypt, too, guilty of blockading Gaza? Doesn't every one of the claims you make against Israel (whether true or false) also apply to Egypt? Why do you condemn Israel but not Egypt?

If there are particular topics you wish to discuss (for example, Gaza), then I suggest you open new threads dedicated to those topics, and depending on how rational your points are, I'll consider making reply.


You continue to try to change the subject whenever you are refuted.  You talk about "rationality" yet your posts reeks of irrationality. 

But since I am not like you, I don't avoid responding to every point you raise.  You asked about Egypt.  You are absolutely right that the Egyptian government is just as guilty for the suffering in the Gaza Strip.  But, most Egyptians support lifting the Egyptian blockade.  The hypocrites in the government and the military want to preserve the peace treaty with Israel.  They are only protecting their own personal interests, and yes, they are just as guilty as Israel.

Why on earth would we need to open a new thread on Gaza?  The situation in Gaza is a part of the conflict going back to 1948.  That is the issue of this thread, so why would need to open a new thread?

Now, answer my questions that you keep avoiding like the plague.  


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 11:53am
Islamispeace wrote: answer my questions that you keep avoiding like the plague.

I don't think you have thus far asked a rational question which requires a response. So, try again.

Compose a clear, rational, understandable question, and I promise to reply.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Show me one person in this world who has NOT suffered some sort of loss? 

Greetings islamispeace,

That is my point.  There are a great many people who have suffered serious losses in life... loss of everything, but they choose, and chose, not to dwell on what was lost and to choose instead life and rebuilding with what they still have.

We all must choose to keep going forward in life despite our losses.
I do not think I am unique at all.  I think I learned a hard lesson what it is to not wallow in the pain of the past and to choose instead to create joy for the future.
Originally posted by islamispeace


 In fact, whenever I feel like things are not going right in my life, I always remind myself that I have no right to complain.  People living in Africa, Asia and other places have it much worse, and yet they are enduring, so why can't I? 

Me too.  So we have that in common. Smile
In fact I count my blessings every day.  What may seem tiny to most, is very large to me.  God has allowed to be taken away, but God has also given, and I know that I am blessed.

I do not see where I have been 'refuted'.
Just because someone disagrees with me, does not make them right.  They have expressed their opinion on the matter.

Originally posted by islamispeace


You still have not answered my question: how exactly are the Palestinians supposed to "recover"?  Any bright ideas?  It's easy to say stuff.  It's quite another to say something that will make a difference. 

I don't have the answers, but I do know that those outside of the conflict, who insist on continuing the conflict, and fueling the conflict, are certainly not helping the people having to live with the conflict.

I know it would be better for the leaders there to make peace with the past, as I am fairly certain the people there would like to see them do.  I am sure the people just want to get on with life and have a life.  It is those outside that make life inside impossible, and they need to stop.

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


About 45 percent of children in Gaza have iron deficiency from a lack of fruit and vegetables, and 18 percent have stunted growth."

Greetings islamispeace,

I have been doing some reading so as not to repeat the facts I know, incorrectly, because the greenhouses immediately came to my mind.  The following are from articles I have been reading(many sources):

In 2005, as Israel withdrew from Gaza and forcibly removed the Jewish residents of the area, a group of Jewish American donors came together to ensure that the famed Israeli greenhouses that produced $200 million of produce per year would not go to waste. The greenhouses were purchased for $14 million – much of it provided by the Gates Foundation - and turned over to Gaza Arabs.

But within hours of the withdrawal, many of the buildings had been damaged beyond repair. Terrorists and looters stripped them of their piping and electronic equipment and tore down their walls. Some greenhouses remained, several of which were destroyed in a second round of looting in 2006.
(An article from 2010)
Now Gaza Arabs are going to get a second chance to try to recreate the thriving greenhouses of Gush Katif. The United States Agency for International Development is to sponsor a project termed Family Agricultural Greenhouses, which will construct three new greenhouses.

USAID hopes the three greenhouses will support 900 families in the Hamas-run Gaza region.

"...the rise of the PA and later of Hamas has created a situation in which rival terrorist groups battle for control at the expense of civilians, and ultimately destroy efforts to build local industry."

"As long as the atmosphere in Gaza is one of hostility, the rivalry between local Arab groups will make any attempts to build a better future fruitless, "

Gush Katif -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Katif
It is worth reading about.
  a bloc of 17 Israeli settlements of Jewish persons, in the southern Gaza strip. In August 2005, the Israeli army moved the 8,600 residents of Gush Katif to Israel. They were evicted from the area and their homes demolished as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan from the Gaza Strip portion of the Palestinian Territories.
(my own personal note here... why were the homes demolished instead of leaving them for others to inhabit... seems mean spirited and spiteful... not peaceful at all.)
Here's some more:
 For the former Jewish settlers, who began coming here in the 1970s, the loss of their livelihoods and homes when the Israeli Army removed them remains a source of trauma. The way they mourn and remember their loss bears at times a striking resemblance to the way Palestinian refugees mourn theirs.

 Out the window and across the field, Gadid’s former synagogue could be seen, a six-sided structure dear to the hearts of many former settlers. Today it is a mosque.
Other sources, other reading:
 James Wolfensohn, a former president of the World Bank who served as international representative to the conflict at the time of the handover, was the one who raised the $14 million for the greenhouses. He called friends like Bill Gates. Mortimer B. Zuckerman, the publisher of The Daily News, threw in a bit of his own, and in a few weeks he had the money.

“There was nothing but hope then,” Mr. Wolfensohn said when reached by telephone in London. “We thought about tourism and hotels and turning Gaza into the Arab Riviera.”

But between the looting, security delays and corruption of border guards — both Israeli and Palestinian, he noted — and then after Israel’s three-week offensive in 2008-9 and the naval blockade, the economy fell apart.

Told of the newly revived farmlands, he was delighted.

“It saddened me that something I thought was a really good contribution had gone sour,” he said. “I thought if people were vested in the economics of their activities and there was interdependence between Israelis and Palestinians, the risk of violence would be greatly reduced. The area would flourish. But the problem with the Middle East is that it is not always rational.”
The most recent news I could find for the greenhouses and farm industry in Gaza was as old as 2011. Unhappy
 GAZA — Hundreds of acres of watermelons, orange saplings and grapevines stretch in orderly rows out to the horizon. Irrigation hoses run along the sand, dripping quietly. Apple trees are starting to blossom nearby. Avocados and mangoes are on their way.

Gaza, cut off by Israel and Egypt for the past four years and heavily dependent on food aid, is expanding an enormous state-run farm aimed at gaining partial food independence. Most striking is that the project sits in the center of the coastal strip on the sites of the former Israeli settlements whose looted greenhouses and ruined fields became a symbol of all that had turned sour in the Israeli withdrawal six years ago.

Israel pulled out its 9,000 settlers and all of its soldiers from Gaza in 2005. The settlers’ high-tech greenhouses, which were bought for the Palestinians with $14 million in donations, were left unguarded and within days were stripped of computer equipment, irrigation pipes, water pumps and plastic sheeting.

Planting did resume, but after an attack on the border, Israel imposed security procedures on exiting trucks that left fresh produce baking in the sun, rendering it worthless. The greenhouse areas were abandoned and lay fallow, a symbol of hopelessness and hostility.

But in the past couple of years, as Gaza — ruled by the Islamist group Hamas — has struggled with its isolation and economic decline, the settlement areas have been reborn.

Renamed Al Muhararat — meaning the liberated lands — they make up 30 percent of the coastal strip’s land area. The farms on part of them, which are expanding every year, provide jobs for 500 people, as well as fruits and vegetables for large segments of Gaza’s 1.6 million inhabitants.

In food shops and market stalls across Gaza today, most of the onions, melons and grapes come from here. Last month alone, 100 tons of grapes and 23,000 tons of watermelons were produced. The greenhouses remain mostly stripped and unused, but the land under them is productive.

“We are making ourselves free of Israel economically and are on our way to food security,”
Abdel Qader al-Astal, the director of the project, said in his office in what used to be the Israeli settlement of Gadid, renamed Al Yarmouk.

reepicheep makes good points... why isn't Egypt helping the residents of Gaza strip to build up their communities?

I can not, and will not, say that everything done on the Israeli side is, or has been, correct,
but I will say that there is much that can, and could, be done on the other side of things to move forward and make life better for the people of the Gaza strip... and it seems, it some ways it has, and things are moving forward... albeit slowly.

Originally posted by islamispeace


The other example of Israel's continuing criminal practices is the destruction of Bedouin homes.  That also does not seem to bother you.  Settler violence against Palestinian farmers and the Israeli government's refusal to stop it does not seem to bother you.

This does bother me, very much.

asalaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 March 2014 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

They are only protecting their own personal interests, and yes, they are just as guilty as Israel.

Yes, this is what I see too. Unhappy
asalaam.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 March 2014 at 12:15pm
People are aware of what's being done to Christians in Syria?
Ar-Raqqah
They have also been pushed out and their lands and property taken.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 04 March 2014 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Islamispeace wrote: answer my questions that you keep avoiding like the plague.

I don't think you have thus far asked a rational question which requires a response. So, try again.

Compose a clear, rational, understandable question, and I promise to reply.


You continue to avoid answering my questions to you by making up excuses.  What you don't realize is that your refusal to answer my questions is an answer in itself!  Big%20smile  I know why you are making excuses and not providing any answers.  It is because you are a two-faced hypocrite.  I asked you some simple questions.  For example, I asked you if your congregation has sent any aid to the Palestinians whatsoever.  How much more "clear and rational" can I be?  You were boasting how your congregation sent sweaters to Syria.  But what about Palestine? 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 04 March 2014 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

People are aware of what's being done to Christians in Syria?
Ar-Raqqah
They have also been pushed out and their lands and property taken.


Yes, Syria is a mess right now and many people are suffering, including the Christians.  The war has killed 150,000 people and Assad's thugs as well as Al-Qaeda's thugs are making life miserable for people there. 

How does this change the fact that Israel has made life miserable for the Palestinians for over 60 years?  Of course, it doesn't change anything.  I don't make excuses for the crimes of so-called "Muslims" like Al-Qaeda fanatics, yet many Christians make excuses for Israel.

By the way, this petition caught my eye:

http://https://www.change.org/petitions/sncf-pay-reparations-to-victims-of-the-holocaust - https://www.change.org/petitions/sncf-pay-reparations-to-victims-of-the-holocaust

The petition's promoter, a Holocaust survivior, wants a French railroad company to pay reparations to Holocaust survivors for collaborating with the Nazis.  Of course, I signed the petition.  It's the right thing to do.  But I wonder how you feel about this?  After all, isn't the person who started this petition living in the past?  Shouldn't he forget what happened in the past and just move on?  Shouldn't he and other Holocaust survivors just "recover"? 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 March 2014 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

I asked you if your congregation has sent any aid to the Palestinians whatsoever.  How much more "clear and rational" can I be?  You were boasting how your congregation sent sweaters to Syria.  But what about Palestine? 

Greetings islamispeace,

Aren't there Palestinian refugees staying in Syria?

asalaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 March 2014 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

People are aware of what's being done to Christians in Syria?
Ar-Raqqah
They have also been pushed out and their lands and property taken.

Yes, Syria is a mess right now and many people are suffering, including the Christians.  The war has killed 150,000 people and Assad's thugs as well as Al-Qaeda's thugs are making life miserable for people there. 

How does this change the fact that Israel has made life miserable for the Palestinians for over 60 years?  Of course, it doesn't change anything.  I don't make excuses for the crimes of so-called "Muslims" like Al-Qaeda fanatics, yet many Christians make excuses for Israel.

By the way, this petition caught my eye:

http://https://www.change.org/petitions/sncf-pay-reparations-to-victims-of-the-holocaust - https://www.change.org/petitions/sncf-pay-reparations-to-victims-of-the-holocaust

The petition's promoter, a Holocaust survivior, wants a French railroad company to pay reparations to Holocaust survivors for collaborating with the Nazis.  Of course, I signed the petition.  It's the right thing to do.  But I wonder how you feel about this?  After all, isn't the person who started this petition living in the past?  Shouldn't he forget what happened in the past and just move on?  Shouldn't he and other Holocaust survivors just "recover"? 

Greetings islamispeace,

We were talking about loss, you and I, and moving on with life.  Do you suppose these Christians will be carrying on the fight for their lost property,etc., with armed conflict, 40 years into the future... or even 1 year into the future?  I do not think so.  They will move on.  Others at a later time may move back and begin again, or they may not, but regardless, what's done is done, and the only thing to do is move forward with whatever the future may be able to provide.  Do you understand?

The only excuse for Israel is the same one that there would be for Syria if Christians the world over decided to take up the battle cry against Syria for generations to come, or if they were saying that Syria has no right to exist. 

Starting a petition for reparitions is a far cry from people continuing an armed battle(especially one fueled from outside sources).  Yes, a petition to lawfully regain what was lost is the right thing to do... to do things using the law, and peaceful power of the people to gain justice.

But when a country is attacked in the ways of warfare, they have no choice but to respond in the ways of warfare.  Can you understand?

asalaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 05 March 2014 at 5:34am
Islamispeace wrote: has your congregation sent any aid to the Palestinians whatsoever.

I don't know what relevance your question has to the current topic, but of course we do. Lutheran charities, as well as all other Christian charities and Western non-religious charities, help people all over the world.

For example:

In 2008, 144,838 Palestinians entered Israel for medical treatment, and in 2009 there was a 20% increase, with 172,863 entries of Palestinians into Israel. A year later, in 2010, 175,151 Palestinians entered Israel for treatment, and in 2011, there was an increase of 13% - 197,713 entries of Palestinians. In 2012, there was an additional 6.5% increase, i.e. 210,469 Palestinians in need of medical care entered Israel in order to be treated in Israeli hospitals.

Moreover, during 2012, the Civil Administration financed life-saving medical treatments for 20 Palestinian children (marrow transplants, kidney transplants, purchase of a pump for P.N.T., prenatal diagnosis, impaired intestine surgery and baby obstruction) and more medical treatments worth more than 1,500,000 NIS per year.

The Augusta Victoria Hospital in East Jerusalem, which is financed by the World Lutheran Federation, UNRWE, has established several mobile clinics which travel across the Judea and Samaria region and provide patients with medical treatment. The hospital operates the mobile clinics as part of a continuous commitment to cope particularly with diabetes and breast cancer among the Palestinian population, to optimize treatment and bring it to the patients and to the needy.


http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Peace/Humanitarian/Pages/Health_treatment_West_Bank_Gaza_Strip_Jan_2013.aspx - Health care in West Bank and Gaza


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 March 2014 at 2:01pm
Nigeria under siege by Boko Haram
“February 18th, we had a situation where Boko Haram surrounded a village, separated Christians from the Muslims, and then massacred 106 Christians. Then last week, it flared up yet again when they surrounded a school and killed over 100 children.”
"The ongoing loss in northern Nigeria is devastating: people have lost their homes, places of business, churches, and many have lost their loved ones. "

Why is Palestine considered as unique...
only because of prejudice.



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 09 March 2014 at 7:32am
Caringheart, I am no longer surprised when muslims ignore muslim on non-muslim violence, but I am puzzled when muslims totally ignore muslim-on-muslim violence.

I just read a particularly depressing article on Syria:

Doctors in Syria are being forced to give children unnecessary amputations and patients are choosing to be knocked out with metal bars rather than endure operations without anaesthesia, a new report on the disintegration of the war-torn nation’s health system says.

Three years of brutal conflict has left 60 per cent of Syria’s hospitals damaged or destroyed, while many health workers and medical staff have been killed, imprisoned or have fled the country altogether.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/children-given-unnecessary-amputations-as-syrias-health-system-disintegrates-20140309-34fp5.html - Children given unnecessary amputations as Syria's health system deteriorates

Horrible situation. The citizens of the world should be doing everything they can to help the people suffering in Syria. Yet, the response of Islamispeace is to fly into a rage because Christians are providing aid to Syrian muslims instead of Palestinians? Go figure.

Speaking as a Lutheran, we try to get the "biggest bang for the buck" possible with our aid dollars. Currently, the needs of Syrian muslims are much, much greater than the needs of people living in the West Bank or Gaza. It is logical that aid should be given to the Syrians.

There must be some reason the majority of muslims refuse, under any circumstances, to criticize any muslims who are committing muslim on muslim violence, whether that violence is against Sunni muslims as is happening in Syria, or is against Shia muslims as is happening in Iraq. Anyone here care to explain???


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 March 2014 at 3:16pm
I see the two hypocrites have been adding to the ignorance and bias in the last few days.  Sorry to keep you waiting on a response, but I am busy with other things.  I will be responding to the points you have raised in a short while.  The misinformation and self-righteous hypocrisy will be exposed, inshaAllah.   

-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 March 2014 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

I don't know what relevance your question has to the current topic, but of course we do. Lutheran charities, as well as all other Christian charities and Western non-religious charities, help people all over the world.


I asked if your specific church (the one you attend) which sent 150 sweaters to Syria has also sent aid to Palestinians.  Have you personally donated to Palestine? 

I did look into the activities of the Lutheran World Federation and they have done some very good work.  Not only have they helped the Palestinians, they have also spoken out against the occupation.

http://lwfjerusalem.org/2005/09/lwf-council-urges-israel-to-end-occupation-of-palestinian-territories/ - http://lwfjerusalem.org/2005/09/lwf-council-urges-israel-to-end-occupation-of-palestinian-territories/

So for that, I applaud them.  As I stated before, there are good Jews and Christians doing a lot of good work in opposing Israel's brutality and not making excuses for it, like some two-faced hypocrites.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Nigeria under siege by Boko Haram
“February 18th, we had a situation where Boko Haram surrounded a village, separated Christians from the Muslims, and then massacred 106 Christians. Then last week, it flared up yet again when they surrounded a school and killed over 100 children.”
"The ongoing loss in northern Nigeria is devastating: people have lost their homes, places of business, churches, and many have lost their loved ones. "
Why is Palestine considered as unique...
only because of prejudice.
 

It's amazing how deceivers like you only give half the story.  First of all, Nigerian Christian militias have committed horrific acts of violence against Muslims as well.  There is blood on both sides.  Second, Boko Haram has also attacked and killed Muslims.  Third, Palestine has been under an Israeli occupation for over 60 years.  Palestinians were driven from their homes.  Another difference is that hypocrites such as yourself and your buddy reepicheep make excuses for Israel or try to lessen the significance of its crimes.  I haven't seen any Muslim on this forum make excuses for Boko Haram.  Have you?

Originally posted by Reepicheep


Caringheart, I am no longer surprised when muslims ignore muslim on non-muslim violence, but I am puzzled when muslims totally ignore muslim-on-muslim violence.
I just read a particularly depressing article on Syria:

Doctors in Syria are being forced to give children unnecessary amputations and patients are choosing to be knocked out with metal bars rather than endure operations without anaesthesia, a new report on the disintegration of the war-torn nation’s health system says.

Three years of brutal conflict has left 60 per cent of Syria’s hospitals damaged or destroyed, while many health workers and medical staff have been killed, imprisoned or have fled the country altogether.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/children-given-unnecessary-amputations-as-syrias-health-system-disintegrates-20140309-34fp5.html - Children given unnecessary amputations as Syria's health system deteriorates

Horrible situation. The citizens of the world should be doing everything they can to help the people suffering in Syria. Yet, the response of Islamispeace is to fly into a rage because Christians are providing aid to Syrian muslims instead of Palestinians? Go figure.

Speaking as a Lutheran, we try to get the "biggest bang for the buck" possible with our aid dollars. Currently, the needs of Syrian muslims are much, much greater than the needs of people living in the West Bank or Gaza. It is logical that aid should be given to the Syrians.

There must be some reason the majority of muslims refuse, under any circumstances, to criticize any muslims who are committing muslim on muslim violence, whether that violence is against Sunni muslims as is happening in Syria, or is against Shia muslims as is happening in Iraq. Anyone here care to explain???


Opening your mouth again and letting out more hot air, are we?  You really should keep your mouth shut, because I think the hot air coming out is contributing to global warming!

Muslims do not "ignore muslim on non-muslim violence" or "muslim-on-muslim violence".  Many of us have spoken out against both.  You make blanket statements due to your own ignorance and prejudice. 

Anyway, here is some more bedtime reading for both of you hypocrites.  First, some information on Christian violence against Muslims, especially in the Central African Republic:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2014/03/u-n-says-west-of-central-african-republic-cleansed-of-muslims/ - http://www.loonwatch.com/2014/03/u-n-says-west-of-central-african-republic-cleansed-of-muslims/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2014/01/mad-dog-the-cannibal-still-eating-the-flesh-of-muslim-victims/ - http://www.loonwatch.com/2014/01/mad-dog-the-cannibal-still-eating-the-flesh-of-muslim-victims/

The second link describes the ritualistic cannibalism perpetrated by a Christian fanatic.  Pretty gruesome stuff...

Second, here is some more information on Israel and its treatment of Palestinians:

http://syrianfreepress.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/australian-film-on-israels-torturing-of-palestinian-children-sparks-controversy-not-allowed-medical-treatment/ - http://syrianfreepress.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/australian-film-on-israels-torturing-of-palestinian-children-sparks-controversy-not-allowed-medical-treatment/  

http://electronicintifada.net/content/matter-revenge-israel-denying-medical-treatment-gaza/7224 - http://electronicintifada.net/content/matter-revenge-israel-denying-medical-treatment-gaza/7224

http://revolutionaryfrontlines.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/a-nation-behind-bars-8500-palestinian-political-prisoners-abused-and-tortured-in-israeli-prisons/ - http://revolutionaryfrontlines.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/a-nation-behind-bars-8500-palestinian-political-prisoners-abused-and-tortured-in-israeli-prisons/

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1725422,00.html%20%20 - http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1725422,00.html

http://electronicintifada.net/content/interview-palestinian-women-prisoners-shackled-during-childbirth/9822 - http://electronicintifada.net/content/interview-palestinian-women-prisoners-shackled-during-childbirth/9822

Sick stuff...Let's see what the apologists for Israel have to say. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 March 2014 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Nigeria under siege by Boko Haram
“February 18th, we had a situation where Boko Haram surrounded a village, separated Christians from the Muslims, and then massacred 106 Christians. Then last week, it flared up yet again when they surrounded a school and killed over 100 children.”
"The ongoing loss in northern Nigeria is devastating: people have lost their homes, places of business, churches, and many have lost their loved ones. "
Why is Palestine considered as unique...
only because of prejudice.
 

 I haven't seen any Muslim on this forum make excuses for Boko Haram.  Have you?

Greetings islamispeace,

No, but where is the outcry for these people who are losing their homes, their land, their lives, their loved ones?  Why only the outcry against Israel?  Prejudice.

asalaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 March 2014 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Nigeria under siege by Boko Haram
“February 18th, we had a situation where Boko Haram surrounded a village, separated Christians from the Muslims, and then massacred 106 Christians. Then last week, it flared up yet again when they surrounded a school and killed over 100 children.”
"The ongoing loss in northern Nigeria is devastating: people have lost their homes, places of business, churches, and many have lost their loved ones. "
Why is Palestine considered as unique...
only because of prejudice.
 

 I haven't seen any Muslim on this forum make excuses for Boko Haram.  Have you?

Greetings islamispeace,

No, but where is the outcry for these people who are losing their homes, their land, their lives, their loved ones?  Why only the outcry against Israel?  Prejudice.

asalaam,
Caringheart

Salaam Alaikum, Caringheart.

Islamispeace has condemned crimes perpetrated by Muslims (or people claiming to be following Islam) in email discussions I have had with him over the years.

On this forum, he has condemned Al Qaeda's mistreatment of Syrian Christians in Raqqa.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28104

Abu Loren condemned the attack on Nigerian Christians by stating that Islam does not teach its adherents to kill innocent men, women and children.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27746&PN=1

AbuAyisha has spoken out against the religious indoctrination of West Papuan children by some Indonesian Muslims.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27424


Abu Loren* wrote one of the angriest pieces I have seen on this forum against people who kill and terrorize in the name of Islam.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26536&KW=abu+loren+terrorist

*If you read my exchanges with Abu Loren, you will see that we often don't get along. Unlike Islamispeace who I consider a friend, Abu Loren and I fight more often than not. Yet he is very much a Muslim and as you can see, he is very much vocal about Muslims harming non-Muslims.



I have seen Muslims in this forum condemn terrorism by Muslims (or people claiming to be following Islam) against non-Muslims.

As a Christian, I also condemn terrorism perpetrated by Christians (or people claiming to be Christians) against Muslims and other non-believers.

We should not be defending abuses perpetrated by Israel, just as no one should be defending abuses perpetrated by Hamas.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 March 2014 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Salaam Alaikum, Caringheart.

Islamispeace has condemned crimes perpetrated by Muslims (or people claiming to be following Islam) in email discussions I have had with him over the years.

On this forum, he has condemned Al Qaeda's mistreatment of Syrian Christians in Raqqa.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28104

Abu Loren condemned the attack on Nigerian Christians by stating that Islam does not teach its adherents to kill innocent men, women and children.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27746&PN=1

AbuAyisha has spoken out against the religious indoctrination of West Papuan children by some Indonesian Muslims.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27424


Abu Loren* wrote one of the angriest pieces I have seen on this forum against people who kill and terrorize in the name of Islam.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26536&KW=abu+loren+terrorist

*If you read my exchanges with Abu Loren, you will see that we often don't get along. Unlike Islamispeace who I consider a friend, Abu Loren and I fight more often than not. Yet he is very much a Muslim and as you can see, he is very much vocal about Muslims harming non-Muslims.


I have seen Muslims in this forum condemn terrorism by Muslims (or people claiming to be following Islam) against non-Muslims.

As a Christian, I also condemn terrorism perpetrated by Christians (or people claiming to be Christians) against Muslims and other non-believers.

We should not be defending abuses perpetrated by Israel, just as no one should be defending abuses perpetrated by Hamas.


Greetings TG,

I appreciate what you are saying here, and I too do not excuse wrongful behavior.
What I am saying is...
where are the people getting up in arms to lob missiles at all the other people who are committing atrocities... taking away land and lives, committing 'genocide' as everyone likes to say is being done to palestinians?   And I'm not saying that they should,  I am saying that the only place we see this is over the Israel issue.  That is all that I am saying.  There are atrocities going on all over the world but everyone is not jumping on board to fuel those fires.  I am speaking against prejudice.

asalaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 March 2014 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by TG12345


Salaam Alaikum, Caringheart.

Islamispeace has condemned crimes perpetrated by Muslims (or people claiming to be following Islam) in email discussions I have had with him over the years.

On this forum, he has condemned Al Qaeda's mistreatment of Syrian Christians in Raqqa.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28104

Abu Loren condemned the attack on Nigerian Christians by stating that Islam does not teach its adherents to kill innocent men, women and children.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27746&PN=1

AbuAyisha has spoken out against the religious indoctrination of West Papuan children by some Indonesian Muslims.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27424


Abu Loren* wrote one of the angriest pieces I have seen on this forum against people who kill and terrorize in the name of Islam.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26536&KW=abu+loren+terrorist

*If you read my exchanges with Abu Loren, you will see that we often don't get along. Unlike Islamispeace who I consider a friend, Abu Loren and I fight more often than not. Yet he is very much a Muslim and as you can see, he is very much vocal about Muslims harming non-Muslims.


I have seen Muslims in this forum condemn terrorism by Muslims (or people claiming to be following Islam) against non-Muslims.

As a Christian, I also condemn terrorism perpetrated by Christians (or people claiming to be Christians) against Muslims and other non-believers.

We should not be defending abuses perpetrated by Israel, just as no one should be defending abuses perpetrated by Hamas.


Greetings TG,

I appreciate what you are saying here, and I too do not excuse wrongful behavior.
What I am saying is...
where are the people getting up in arms to lob missiles at all the other people who are committing atrocities... taking away land and lives, committing 'genocide' as everyone likes to say is being done to palestinians?   And I'm not saying that they should,  I am saying that the only place we see this is over the Israel issue.  That is all that I am saying.  There are atrocities going on all over the world but everyone is not jumping on board to fuel those fires.  I am speaking against prejudice.

asalaam,
Caringheart

Hi Caringheart,

Greetings to you also and peace be with you.

I don't see anyone on this forum advocating lobbying missiles at Israel, I do see them criticizing crimes that it commits against Palestinians. I also see them criticizing crimes being perpetrated by ISIL, Boko Haram, and Indonesian "Muslim" missionaries.

I do agree with you that outside of this forum, I am more likely to hear my Muslim friends criticize Israel than to hear them criticize Indonesia, or other Muslim majority states that occupy and oppress non-Muslims. I believe this is wrong, and that among some, only Israel is condemned for human rights abuses, and other perpetrators get a free ride. That is hypocritical and low and wrong. I don't see it happening on this forum, though.

We need to speak out against human rights abuses by Indonesia and other Muslim majority states. That doesn't mean though that as we do so, we should stop speaking out against abuses by Israel.

One reason why I am very vocal about Israeli crimes against Palestinians is that, unlike crimes carried out by Jakarta or Khartoum or Riyadh or Tehran, many churches support and try to make excuses for these crimes. In other words, these occupation- the beatings, house demolitions, water deprivation, checkpoints, humiliations, shootings- is being supported and excused and sometimes even funded by people claiming to be acting in our name.

Soon after I became a Christian, when I was 17, I met a Palestinian woman, a convert from Islam to Christianity and a dear sister in Jesus Christ; who opened my eyes to what her people are going through. It is bad enough that Palestinians are suffering under occupation. It is even worse that many churches stand by their oppressors.

Those Muslims who shamefully keep silent or support human rights abusers who are also Muslim will one day have to face God and answer why they tolerated injustice being done in their names. You don't need to fear that, it will happen.

However, ask yourself this: what will we say to Him when you face Him and He asks us what we have done to oppose injustices being carried out against His people, in our name?


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 10 March 2014 at 9:29am
Islamispeace wrote: I asked if your specific church (the one you attend) which sent 150 sweaters to Syria has also sent aid to Palestinians. Have you personally donated to Palestine?

Yes. We donate money to Canadian Lutheran World Relief, which in turn forwards money to the World Lutheran Federation, which spends the money supporting The Augusta Victoria Hospital in East Jerusalem.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 March 2014 at 12:21pm
Christians don't specifically only help 'Christians', they help everyone... indeed they are instructed to help all mankind...
Read Jesus', parable of the good samaritan, and the lesson that Yshwe taught.
asalaam.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 March 2014 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep


I just read a particularly depressing article on Syria:

Doctors in Syria are being forced to give children unnecessary amputations and patients are choosing to be knocked out with metal bars rather than endure operations without anaesthesia, a new report on the disintegration of the war-torn nation’s health system says.

Three years of brutal conflict has left 60 per cent of Syria’s hospitals damaged or destroyed, while many health workers and medical staff have been killed, imprisoned or have fled the country altogether.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/children-given-unnecessary-amputations-as-syrias-health-system-disintegrates-20140309-34fp5.html - Children given unnecessary amputations as Syria's health system deteriorates

Greetings reepicheep,

I just heard about this in the news.  So sad.
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 March 2014 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Christians don't specifically only help 'Christians', they help everyone... indeed they are instructed to help all mankind...
Read Jesus', parable of the good samaritan, and the lesson that Yshwe taught.
asalaam.

Amen to that, sister. We are called to help everyone, not only fellow Christians.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 25 March 2014 at 9:29am
I recommend reading the book "MICHAEL LERNER - Embracing Israel/Palestine: A Strategy to Heal and Transform the Middle East"

Summary: A major modern conundrum is how the Arab/Israel conflict remains unresolved and, seemingly, unresolvable. In Embracing Israel/Palestine, Rabbi Michael Lerner examines how the mutual demonization and discounting of each sides’ legitimate needs drive the antagonism, and explores the underlying psychological dynamics that fuel the seeming intransigence on both sides. Lerner shows the importance of being both pro-Israel and pro-Palestine, challenges the master narratives in both Israel and Palestine to the extent that they demean the other side, and exposes the false idea that “homeland security” (either for Israel or for the U.S.) can be achieved through military, political, economic, or cultural domination. Lerner argues that real security is best achieved through an ethos of caring and generosity toward “the other” and presents a Global Marshall Plan whose first location would be the Middle East. Insisting that any agreement reached at the negotiating table will be worthless without a fundamental transformation of consciousness, Lerner shows how we in the West could play a central role in facilitating that change if we ourselves were to adopt a more rational approach to homeland security and foreign policy. Lerner’s approach, drawn from his own work as a psychotherapist with Israelis and Palestinians and addressing the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that politically cripples both societies, presents a vital and creative new direction that will provide hope and instruction to anyone who seeks a lasting peace for the Middle East and a healing of the U.S. as well.

Rep. Keith Ellison, the first elected Muslim to the U.S. Congress and chair of the seventy-member Progressive Caucus of the U.S. House of Representatives about the book: "Rabbi Michael Lerner is one of America’s most significant progressive intellectuals and political leaders, and Embracing Israel/Palestine is not only a great conceptual breakthrough in dealing with the Middle East but also demonstrates a methodology for how best to think about global and domestic U.S. politics. For many decades Muslims, around the world have been cheered by Rabbi Lerner’s challenge to the media’s demeaning of our religion and dismissal of the rights of Palestinians, just as they have been challenged by his insistence that they recognize the importance of truly and deeply accepting Israel’s right to exist in peace and security. I hope my colleagues on Capitol Hill, the cynical media, and leaders in Israel, Palestine, and throughout the world are pushed by ordinary readers to grapple with the brilliant path to peace and reconciliation put forward in this book. Rabbi Lerner’s commitment to nonviolence and a path of love and generosity should not be dismissed as utopian. My experience in the Congress leads me to believe, on the contrary, that it is precisely his way of thinking that is the only path that will give Israel, Palestine, and the United States the peace, security, and well-being all three deserve!"



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt



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