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Islamist Terrorists are not Muslims

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26536
Printed Date: 30 August 2014 at 11:22pm


Topic: Islamist Terrorists are not Muslims
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: Islamist Terrorists are not Muslims
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 2:38am
Asalaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
A Muslim is a believer who has submitted his whole being to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and who enjoins good and forbids evil. Nowhere in the Qur'an nor in the Hadiths does it say to go and kill innocent men, women and children whatever their faith. In fact, a person who kills another soul is like he killed the whole of humanity. The following Hadith clearly states that a person who kills unlawfully has left the fold of Islam.
 
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Messenger (PBUH) mentioned the greatest sins or he was asked about the greatest sins. He said, "To join partners in worship with Allah; to kill a soul which Allah has forbidden to kill; and to be undutiful or unkind to one's parents." The Prophet (PBUH) added, "Shall I inform you of the biggest of the great sins? That is the forged statement or the false witness." Shu`ba (the sub-narrator) states that most probably the Prophet said, "the false witness."

Reference

: Sahih al-Bukhari 5977

In-book reference

: Book 78, Hadith 8

USC-MSA web (English) reference

: Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 8

 
 
 
 
Now Islamic scholars agree that associating partners to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is a major sin that will take one out of the fold of Islam (he will be a kufr or unbeliever) so by definition categorising "killing a soul which Allah has forbidden to kill" also surely comes in the same category. This seems obvious to me.
 
However, Muslims are terrified of labelling somebody especially 'a brother' a kufr because they say they will be accountable for what they say on the Day of Resurrection and if they are wrong about that person then they will be punished for it. But if the evidence is staring at your face then surely you can make that judgement call. The Muslims are terrified of these things. They wait in anticipation for a scholar to give a fatawa, and once that is done then 1.5 billion Muslims will jump on the bandwagon and will then condemn these animals who do these atrocities. They are also terrified of interpreting what is in the Qur'an and the Hadiths even if the statement is so simple a 5 year old could understand.
 
As long as the Muslims Ummah is silent when these terrorists who kill thousands of innocent men, woman and children then it is like they have a license to carry on. It is high time that decent God fearing Muslims spoke up and condemen these atrocities.
 
THEIR SILENCE IS DEAFENING!



Replies:
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 4:35am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Asalaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
A Muslim is a believer who has submitted his whole being to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and who enjoins good and forbids evil. Nowhere in the Qur'an nor in the Hadiths does it say to go and kill innocent men, women and children whatever their faith. In fact, a person who kills another soul is like he killed the whole of humanity. The following Hadith clearly states that a person who kills unlawfully has left the fold of Islam.
 
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Messenger (PBUH) mentioned the greatest sins or he was asked about the greatest sins. He said, "To join partners in worship with Allah; to kill a soul which Allah has forbidden to kill; and to be undutiful or unkind to one's parents." The Prophet (PBUH) added, "Shall I inform you of the biggest of the great sins? That is the forged statement or the false witness." Shu`ba (the sub-narrator) states that most probably the Prophet said, "the false witness."

Reference

: Sahih al-Bukhari 5977

In-book reference

: Book 78, Hadith 8

USC-MSA web (English) reference

: Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 8

 
 
 
 
Now Islamic scholars agree that associating partners to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is a major sin that will take one out of the fold of Islam (he will be a kufr or unbeliever) so by definition categorising "killing a soul which Allah has forbidden to kill" also surely comes in the same category. This seems obvious to me.
 
However, Muslims are terrified of labelling somebody especially 'a brother' a kufr because they say they will be accountable for what they say on the Day of Resurrection and if they are wrong about that person then they will be punished for it. But if the evidence is staring at your face then surely you can make that judgement call. The Muslims are terrified of these things. They wait in anticipation for a scholar to give a fatawa, and once that is done then 1.5 billion Muslims will jump on the bandwagon and will then condemn these animals who do these atrocities. They are also terrified of interpreting what is in the Qur'an and the Hadiths even if the statement is so simple a 5 year old could understand.
 
As long as the Muslims Ummah is silent when these terrorists who kill thousands of innocent men, woman and children then it is like they have a license to carry on. It is high time that decent God fearing Muslims spoke up and condemen these atrocities.
 
THEIR SILENCE IS DEAFENING!

Salaam Alaikum, and nice to hear from you again, Abu Loren.

Wow, thank you for this powerful post. I post on a forum where many ignorant Christians and other non-Muslims claim that Islam teaches violence and that Muslims excuse it. Would I have your permission to provide a link to this post?

I wanted to say that I agree with you that Islam does not allow terrorist violence against unarmed and innocent men, women and children. Islam allows violence in self-defence, as well as the death penalty against criminals and apostates, which is something I disagree with because Jesus taught love for enemies. However, there is a difference between combat and even capital punishment, and deliberate targeting of civilians. Islam does not allow that.

People calling themselves Muslims who commit terrorism as well as Islamophobes who tarnish your faith fail to understand that.

Take care.

PS I know we weren't on best terms the last time you posted on here, and we will probably get into a lot more heated debates and arguments. I wanted to say though, for the record, that I respect you for writing this.




Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 8:10am
Wa Alaikkum
 
There is nothing wrong with heated debates my friend as long as we learn from them and respect each other's beliefs because at the end of the day we will all be judged with justice on the Day of Resurrection.
 
I'm not interested in that link.
 
Come to think of it I should have added on the above post that there are millions of Muslims who do not practice their faith and further millions who are apostate. However, because they have an Arabic/Islamic name people mistake them for a Muslim. A muslim has to do certain things to be a Muslim, many scholars now agree that a person who deliberately misses a pray and do not make up for it then he has left the fold of Islam. Then there are those Muslims who pray only on Friday, on Eid etc.
 
I am sorry but I am not willing to call a hypocrite my brother. In case they have forgotten I will hightlight that "ALL believers are brothers and sisters".


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 9:16am
At tg12345 even islam also taught to love enemies in Surah Al Fusilat ch 41 v 34.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 10:49am
Our terrorist/jihadi coreleligionists base their actions upon an understanding of figh, that you and I disagree with, however to label them non-Muslims is not only an convenient argument, but wrong, and only severs to perpetuate blood letting. It is our duty as Muslims to recognize and familiarize ourselves with the narrative and figh arguments of these misguided individuals and do our best to either expose/report them, or counter their rhetoric with sound Islamic knowledge. It is my belief that today's terrorist began as someone simply seeking to understand political events vis-a-vis Islam, and they gradually become radicalized in the absence of a proper understanding of not only politics, but their religion as well. We should prepare to engage intellectually, whenever we hear their narrative, and not simply dismiss them as non-Muslims.       


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 11:27am
Originally posted by abuayisha

Our terrorist/jihadi coreleligionists base their actions upon an understanding of figh, that you and I disagree with, however to label them non-Muslims is not only an convenient argument, but wrong, and only severs to perpetuate blood letting. It is our duty as Muslims to recognize and familiarize ourselves with the narrative and figh arguments of these misguided individuals and do our best to either expose/report them, or counter their rhetoric with sound Islamic knowledge. It is my belief that today's terrorist began as someone simply seeking to understand political events vis-a-vis Islam, and they gradually become radicalized in the absence of a proper understanding of not only politics, but their religion as well. We should prepare to engage intellectually, whenever we hear their narrative, and not simply dismiss them as non-Muslims.       
 
You had to add the word 'Jihadist' to make it legal. If I'm not mistaken Jihad is translated as struggle. So which struglle are they representing?
 
On another forum, a member gave this scenario.
 
A village in Palestine, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc are attacked and the young men who grow up under these circumstances then take up the gun.
 
But by taking up the gun and going to other places in the world and then pointing an AK47 on somebody's face and pulling the trigger or blowing up innocent men, women and children is that justice? If they have geopolitical differences then those must be addressed in a manner where a mutal outcome for both parties are attained. Otherwise, it is blatant terrorism which has no place in any society.
 
Why don't you address this fiqh issue here so we can all have a look at it?
 
By the way, from the Hadith I quoted do you agree that unlawful killing of a soul is tantamount to disbelief?


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 1:48pm
Jihadi has become synonymous with terrorist, and for good reason, but my only point was to lump them together because they are often loosely used interchangeably. Most unlawful actions are sins, and generally speaking, murder would be a sin. A major sin.

With respect to your example of;"A village in Palestine..." I would appeal to those Muslims who know the plans of this young man to travel and take up a gun to prevent him from going, but one must have the ability to make a convincing argument.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Wa Alaikkum
 
There is nothing wrong with heated debates my friend as long as we learn from them and respect each other's beliefs because at the end of the day we will all be judged with justice on the Day of Resurrection.
 
I'm not interested in that link.
 
Come to think of it I should have added on the above post that there are millions of Muslims who do not practice their faith and further millions who are apostate. However, because they have an Arabic/Islamic name people mistake them for a Muslim. A muslim has to do certain things to be a Muslim, many scholars now agree that a person who deliberately misses a pray and do not make up for it then he has left the fold of Islam. Then there are those Muslims who pray only on Friday, on Eid etc.
 
I am sorry but I am not willing to call a hypocrite my brother. In case they have forgotten I will hightlight that "ALL believers are brothers and sisters".

We agree completely, Abu Loren. I also wanted to add I have the same view of people who claim to be Christians, but while saying this they are unrepentantly bombing other countries, supporting the oppression of Palestinians, serving in the army, doing other things that are against the teachings of Jesus. They are not following Him, and they are not Christians. If they do not repent, they will end up in hell.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 30 September 2013 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by NABA

At tg12345 even islam also taught to love enemies in Surah Al Fusilat ch 41 v 34.

True, that is a good teaching. If I am not mistaken though, the Quran does allow enemies to be killed, right? Not civilians, but armed enemies who are harming Muslims. While in the Old Testament, killing and even genocide of enemies was allowed, according to the New Testament, we are not allowed to harm anyone, even if they are harming us.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 5:33am
I am against the "violent Islamists aren't Muslims" argument. It's like saying the Nazis weren't human. They were.

Violent Islamists act in the name of Islam. They are Muslims, although very bad ones, interpreting the Quran and Hadith in a very one-sided way. They think Islam is under attack by the West and they have to fight a holy war against the West and killing inifidels (in their view) is justified.

The people in Rome who burned Giordano Bruno were Christians, although very bad ones.

I think it's better to talk about good and bad Muslims and about good and bad Christians.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 7:00am
Allah says in ch 25 v 52 that strive against the unbelievers with the help of Quran,means to defeat falsehood we have to take help of Quran which is the book of truth.


Posted By: Syed S
Date Posted: 05 November 2013 at 6:07am
It saddens me to see how media represents Muslims as terrorist all over the news. And now even in the movies they are ruining the image of muslims

People it is nothing but a st**id stereotype. We are a religion of peace and loving every human on this planet earth is the core of Islam.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 06 December 2013 at 8:43am
Islam is a religion of peace if interpreted in a modern way. But it can be interpreted quite differently to justify violence. Islamism is a form of religious fascism that has no place in the modern world. We need an Islamism-free Muslim world.

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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Trinity
Date Posted: 07 December 2013 at 8:06am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Islam is a religion of peace if interpreted in a modern way. But it can be interpreted quite differently to justify violence. Islamism is a form of religious fascism that has no place in the modern world. We need an Islamism-free Muslim world.


In other words, Islam is in need of a "reformation".


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 December 2013 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Trinity


Originally posted by Matt Browne

Islam is a religion of peace if interpreted in a modern way. But it can be interpreted quite differently to justify violence. Islamism is a form of religious fascism that has no place in the modern world. We need an Islamism-free Muslim world.

In other words, Islam is in need of a "reformation".


I see it different, Islam is complete and pure. It is the person that needs reform.
You see there are terms invented to describe different types of Muslims: Moderate Muslim, fundamentalist Muslim, extremist Muslim, modest Muslim and so on. These terms are invented terms to serve political interests, just like in the days of the Old West when a good Indian emant a dead Indian.
Our Creator, God Almighty describes a person who follows His commands fully as a Muslim. If any follow their own desires is not a Muslim.
Anyone, who follow the command to it's fullest will be a source of peace and security for himself and for others.
"By time,Indeed, mankind is in loss,Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience." Al Quran 103:1-3
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 16 December 2013 at 10:23pm
At trinity islam doesn't need reformation because Quran is the last revelation of Allah and is the solution to humanity, Allah says forbids innovation in islam in ch 5 v 3.


Posted By: johnford
Date Posted: 17 December 2013 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Islam is a religion of peace if interpreted in a modern way.


Why include the conditional clause 'if interpreted in a modern way'?

Your assumption is that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion but Islam can be made 'peaceful' if interpreted in a 'modern' way.

First ... why should Islam be 'peaceful? ... so you can feel comfortable?

Second ... any religion can be 'cut n pasted' to suit the likes and dislikes of the reader.

We need an Islamism-free Muslim world.


Fortunately such will not happened ... for two reasons.

The rest of the world is not a peaceful place as you assume.

Second ... you fail to realize that historically Islam in fact has been responsible for peaceful co-existence of any number of religions far more so that Christianity or the continuing war like aggressive Israel and its ally, the US (Yes, and Australia).


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 2:12pm
well said.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"



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