Print Page | Close Window

Why are most of the Muslims.......

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Discription: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2634
Printed Date: 30 October 2014 at 9:14pm


Topic: Why are most of the Muslims.......
Posted By: ak_m_f
Subject: Why are most of the Muslims.......
Date Posted: 16 October 2005 at 9:49am

Salam,
someone asked me this question:

Why are most of the Muslims fundamentalists and terrorists?



Replies:
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 16 October 2005 at 9:54am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

ask them if they have met 1.6 billion muslims.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 16 October 2005 at 10:42am
Originally posted by rami

<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">

assalamu alaikum

ask them if they have met 1.6 billion muslims.



is their any way i can change this prespective of muslims ?
I mean where are the times when we were the leader in techonology & medecine? y cant we have those times back?
one state one religion.

-------------


Posted By: Abeer23
Date Posted: 17 October 2005 at 8:23am

Well said mouhssine4

Salaam



Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 17 October 2005 at 10:39am

salaams,

Right on mouhssine4

hakeema



Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 17 October 2005 at 11:37am
and in addition to that

I found an article by Dr.Zakir Naik:


This question is often hurled at Muslims, either directly or indirectly, during any discussion on religion or world affairs. Muslim stereotypes are perpetuated in every form of the media accompanied by gross misinformation about Islam and Muslims. In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims. A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.

Let us analyze this allegation of ‘fundamentalism’ and ‘terrorism’:


1.   Definition of the word ‘fundamentalist’

A fundamentalist is a person who follows and adheres to the fundamentals of the doctrine or theory he is following. For a person to be a good doctor, he should know, follow, and practise the fundamentals of medicine. In other words, he should be a fundamentalist in the field of medicine. For a person to be a good mathematician, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of mathematics. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of mathematics. For a person to be a good scientist, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of science. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of science.


2.   Not all ‘fundamentalists’ are the same

One cannot paint all fundamentalists with the same brush. One cannot categorize all fundamentalists as either good or bad. Such a categorization of any fund amentalist will depend upon the field or activity in which he is a fundamentalist. A fundamentalist robber or thief causes harm to society and is therefore undesirable. A fundamentalist doctor, on the other hand, benefits society and earns much respect.


3.   I am proud to be a Muslim fundamentalist

I am a fundamentalist Muslim who, by the grace of Allah, knows, follows and strives to practise the fundamentals of Islam. A true Muslim does not shy away from being a fundamentalist. I am proud to be a fundamentalist Muslim because, I know that the fundamentals of Islam are beneficial to humanity and the whole world. There is not a single fundamental of Islam that causes harm or is against the interests of the human race as a whole. Many people harbour misconceptions about Islam and consider several teachings of Islam to be unfair or improper. This is due to insufficient and incorrect knowledge of Islam. If one critically analyzes the teachings of Islam with an open mind, one cannot escape the fact that Islam is full of benefits both at the individual and collective levels.


4.   Dictionary meaning of the word ‘fundamentalist’

According to Webster’s dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ was a movement in American Protestanism that arose in the earlier part of the 20th century. It was a reaction to modernism, and stressed the infallibility of the Bible, not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record. It stressed on belief in the Bible as the literal word of God. Thus fundamentalism was a word initially used for a group of Christians who believed that the Bible was the verbatim word of God without any errors and mistakes.

According to the Oxford dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ means ‘strict maintenance of ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion, especially Islam’.

Today the moment a person uses the word fundamentalist he thinks of a Muslim who is a terrorist.


5.   Every Muslim should be a terrorist

Every Muslim should be a terrorist. A terrorist is a person who causes terror. The moment a robber sees a policeman he is terrified. A policeman is a terrorist for the robber. Similarly every Muslim should be a terrorist for the antisocial elements of society, such as thieves, dacoits and rapists. Whenever such an anti-social element sees a Muslim, he should be terrified. It is true that the word ‘terrorist’ is generally used for a person who causes terror among the common people. But a true Muslim should only be a terrorist to selective people i.e. anti-social elements, and not to the common innocent people. In fact a Muslim should be a source of peace for innocent people.


6. Different labels given to the same individual for the same action, i.e. ‘terrorist’ and ‘patriot’

Before India achieved independence from British rule, some freedom fighters of India who did not subscribe to non-violence were labeled as terrorists by the British government. The same individuals have been lauded by Indians for the same activities and hailed as ‘patriots’. Thus two different labels have been given to the same people for the same set of actions. One is calling him a terrorist while the other is calling him a patriot. Those who believed that Britain had a right to rule over India called these people terrorists, while those who were of the view that Britain had no right to rule India called them patriots and freedom fighters.

It is therefore important that before a person is judged, he is given a fair hearing. Both sides of the argument should be heard, the situation should be analyzed, and the reason and the intention of the person should be taken into account, and then the person can be judged accordingly.


7.   Islam means peace

Islam is derived from the word ‘salaam’ which means peace. It is a religion of peace whose fundamentals teach its followers to maintain and promote peace throughout the world.

Thus every Muslim should be a fundamentalist i.e. he should follow the fundamentals of the Religion of Peace: Islam. He should be a terrorist only towards the antisocial elements in order to promote peace and justice in the society.


-------------


Posted By: Begbie
Date Posted: 17 October 2005 at 11:52am
Originally posted by ak_m_f

This question is often hurled at Muslims, either directly or indirectly, during any discussion on religion or world affairs. Muslim stereotypes are perpetuated in every form of the media accompanied by gross misinformation about Islam and Muslims.


Is it possible to provide an example of this "gross misinformation" that is presented in the media because I can't say I have noticed it.

Originally posted by ak_m_f

In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims.


I would be interested in seeing some statistics on this also. Can you provide some evidence to back up this assertion ?


Originally posted by ak_m_f

A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack.


Wow, I did not know this. Can you provide a link to some articles where this was stated ?

Originally posted by ak_m_f

The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.


Really ?!!! Again, I would be most interested in finding out more on this. Do you have any further information on the perpetrator ?



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 October 2005 at 12:57pm

Originally posted by Begbie



Originally posted by ak_m_f

A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack.


Wow, I did not know this. Can you provide a link to some articles where this was stated ?

Originally posted by ak_m_f

The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.


Really ?!!! Again, I would be most interested in finding out more on this. Do you have any further information on the perpetrator ?

Timothy McVeigh who was executed for the Oklahoma City Bombing was a neo-Nazi who was trying to start the revolution foretold in the Turner Diaries.  He was a combat engineer attached to the Marines and studied his bomb making at Fort Leavenworth.  I do remember when the bomb first when off on that day, they assumed that it was done by the same people who bombed the World Trade Center.  It was only after a patrolman pulled McVeigh over and noticed "something" was out of place that the investigation shifted from international terrorism to domestic terrorism. 

All of this information is available online and by a number of credible sources.

 



-------------


Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 17 October 2005 at 5:20pm

i would like every muslim in this place to stand up against this oppression and dictatorship

Mouhsinne, experience has taught me that we have to stand up for ourselves. I very much doubt if you will get much support from our people. There may be a few who will help. There are many others who are fair and will stand up for you and they will come from outside and hopefully change the situation.



Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 18 October 2005 at 6:24pm

Wa-alaikum-Salaam

from a proud muslim alhamdou li Allah, i will say the truth even against my own brother

027.014:And they denied them, though their souls acknowledged them, for spite and arrogance. Then see the nature of the consequence for the wrong-doers!

Yes, that is what is expected of a true Muslim.

I had written this in response to Mouhsinne's post. Unfortunately, it has been deleted. I find the behaviour juvenile.



Posted By: rudy
Date Posted: 24 October 2005 at 3:18am

We make bad terrorists

ak_m_f, no fenc dog, but you've just asked the stupidest question a muslim brother can possiblly ask, Muslims with fundamentalists and terrorists labels just don't belong in the same sentence, and I will give you my reasoning why..when September 11th happened, news stations everywhere were starting to speculate that it was "Muslim"-like or something stupid like that.

I disagree. The heinous acts of terrorism against the World Trade Center for exp were too well-timed and organized to be run by Muslims. I'm serious. I worked for the Muslim community long enough and there are some cold, hard facts about Muslims today:

1) we're not organized enough to pull off a 9/11
2) we're never on time. If there was such a thing as a Muslim terrorist, he would have missed the flight.

Apparently one of the terrorists was spotted at a bar before the plane fiasco. How did they know he was Muslim? Because he accidently left a Qur'an in the bar. Apparently that's what we do as Muslims. We like to carry the Qur'an to dance clubs, bars, burlesque houses and other not-so-Halal places so we can feel better before going on suicide missions. Idiots.

We might make some good villains in movies but in real life, we couldn't do any harm to this country even if we wanted to. We don't really have a good reason to blow up anything either. Unless it's a balloon. Balloons are fun to blow up.

peace - rudy



-------------
If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.
Mother Teresa


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 24 October 2005 at 6:41am
Originally posted by rudy

<h3 style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; text-align: left;">
We make bad terrorists
</h3>
<p style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">

<span style="font-weight: normal;" ="bold">ak_m_f, no fenc dog, but you've just asked the stupidest question a muslim brother can possiblly ask, </span><strong style="font-weight: normal;">Muslims with fundamentalists and terrorists labels just don't belong in the same sentence, and I will give you my reasoning why..when September 11th happened, news
stations everywhere were starting to speculate that it was
"Muslim"-like or something stupid like that.


<p style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">

I disagree. The heinous acts of
terrorism against the World Trade Center for exp were too well-timed and
organized to be run by Muslims. I'm serious. I worked for the Muslim
community long enough and there are some cold, hard
facts about Muslims today:


<p style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">

1) we're not organized enough to pull off a 9/11
2) we're never on time. If there was such a thing as a Muslim terrorist, he would have missed the flight.


<p style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">


<p style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">

Apparently one of the terrorists was
spotted at a bar before the plane fiasco. How did they know he was
Muslim? Because he accidently left a Qur'an in the bar. Apparently
that's what we do as Muslims. We like to carry the Qur'an to dance
clubs, bars, burlesque houses and other not-so-Halal places so we can
feel better before going on suicide missions. Idiots.




<span style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">We might make some good villains in
movies but in real life, we couldn't do any harm to this country even
if we wanted to. We don't really have a good reason to blow up anything
either. Unless it's a balloon. Balloons are fun to blow up.
</span>


<span style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">peace - rudy</span>








-------------


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 24 October 2005 at 6:42am
whats with the jokes? atleast take some things seriously


-------------


Posted By: Justin N
Date Posted: 24 October 2005 at 5:18pm

Originally posted by ak_m_f

Originally posted by rami

<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">

assalamu alaikum

ask them if they have met 1.6 billion muslims.



is their any way i can change this prespective of muslims ?
I mean where are the times when we were the leader in techonology & medecine? y cant we have those times back?
one state one religion.

If you had the knoledge to bet he leader of tech and med then why are you not now??? Where is that so-called "Knowledge"



Posted By: rudy
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 6:39am
what's Justin talking about!!!!!!!!!! knock knock anybody home?

-------------
If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.
Mother Teresa


Posted By: Justin N
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 5:32pm

....Ok.......

ak_m_f in Page 1 said... "I mean where...we were the leader in techonology & medecine?"

 

So...I asked...

"If you had the knoledge to bet he leader of tech and med then why are you not now???"

 

Hope that was simple enough for you.

 



-------------
Please don't take anything I say offencivly, as I don't mean any disrespect.


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 25 October 2005 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Justin N

....Ok.......


ak_m_f in Page 1 said... "I mean where...we were the leader in techonology & medecine?"


 


So...I asked...


"If you had the knoledge to bet he leader of tech and med then why are you not now???"


 


Hope that was simple enough for you.


 



because we are in the dark age, wierd things are done in the name of religion, no one truly follows it ike they did in the times of prophet (PBUH).

People from all over the world came to study in the muslim empire.
they learned Arabic because most of the knowledge was in that language.

They even dressed like muslims and studied with them.

look at us now, people now know us when someone mentions terrorist or bomb.

it happened becuase we are divided, we have no Imam , our umma is lost, we are divided into many countries instead of one state.



-------------


Posted By: freebird
Date Posted: 26 October 2005 at 7:14am

Originally posted by ak_m_f


Salam,
someone asked me this question:

Why are most of the Muslims fundamentalists and terrorists?

It is very obvious.

1. Islam is moving forward converting people along the way, therefore some group who are uninformed about what religion is all about don't like this at all, they think if their own friend or families are convert to Islam they think they are losing, and they do anything to stop the trend. These people are actually fall into the "stupid" category.

2. I play a dos boxing game at this moment, well I've been playing this game since 1993 since the 386 mechine, trust me. Anyway the idea of this game is by fighting the boxers one by one from weaker rank at the bottom end and gradually move up. In the end we will fight "the champ", this no:1 boxer which for some reason just won't stop torturing me in my life, let alone knock him out.

So, to enlighten me myself in my miserable life in this boxing game--even with such punching power, I still fight the lowest boxer in there by the name: "Larry lunch bucket", just to make me happy that at least I still can win, you know what I am saying? No of course you don't.

Imagine if the muslims today having a punching power say like China, will anyone call us terrorist?

Of course not, but because we are the "Larry lunch bucket" they do that. That two are the easiest reasons to grasp by me with my simple mind, mind you.

Anyway, if you ever think to play this game, avoid the number 28 boxer at all cost by the name "Smokin joe blow", that one is a maniac murderer placed in the wrong place. This game is cheating too you know, not just me. 



Posted By: Justin N
Date Posted: 26 October 2005 at 10:17am

/////People from all over the world came to study in the muslim empire.
they learned Arabic because most of the knowledge was in that language./////

 

Where is that knoledge now?? Arabic still exists. Why are ppl not dying to learn in from all over the world now??



-------------
Please don't take anything I say offencivly, as I don't mean any disrespect.


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 26 October 2005 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Justin N

/////People from all over the world came to study in the muslim empire. they learned Arabic because most of the knowledge was in that language./////


 


Where is that knoledge now?? Arabic still exists. Why are ppl not dying to learn in from all over the world now??



we dont have that knowledge now

-------------


Posted By: rosco
Date Posted: 26 October 2005 at 10:33pm

excuse me, i am not a muslims but i have so interest to read your chat about..

i hope that i will be found many knowledges here..

thanks, rosco



Posted By: Community
Date Posted: 27 October 2005 at 2:07am

It is very simpel but you know how people want to make things complicated, islaam is an arabic word, in english it is submission for the sake of peace.

Submission for the sake of peace with The Creator and sustainer of all and everyone(you and me and all of the living beings) Allaha. Submission to Him means to obey His commands and leave what He forbids as to please Him and thus gaining Peace with Him, and these we find in the books (the torah(jewish) the evangel(christian) and koran(arabic). And doing mending works(good deeds).

We accept all the prophets and messengers who come with the truth of One god, and that Him we should please. We say "alaihim assalaam" which means "upon them is The Peace" when we mention prophets and messengers, because they achieved the peace, which is the peace of Allaha,amongst them are Moses and Jesus. We call christians and jews the people of the book(the word bible comes from the latin word Bibleo which means "book") And the prophet of "islaam" is Muhammed upon him is the peace, who came with the truth (to work to achieve peace with Allaha through obeying Him and do mending deeds in this life.)

We have been given this life and it is up to us what to do with it, the best thing is to leave it behind in a better state then when we came to it(when we were born) through doing mending works, and after we die our deeds and their effect on others is what will remain, and for our deeds we will be rewarded in the hereafter.

This is submission for the sake of peace.



Posted By: rudy
Date Posted: 31 October 2005 at 1:26pm
Yes Indeed, It is very simEl.

P-r

Originally posted by Community

It is very simpel but you know how people want to make things complicated, islaam is an arabic word, in english it is submission for the sake of peace.

Submission for the sake of peace with The Creator and sustainer of all and everyone(you and me and all of the living beings) Allaha. Submission to Him means to obey His commands and leave what He forbids as to please Him and thus gaining Peace with Him, and these we find in the books (the torah(jewish) the evangel(christian) and koran(arabic). And doing mending works(good deeds).

We accept all the prophets and messengers who come with the truth of One god, and that Him we should please. We say "alaihim assalaam" which means "upon them is The Peace" when we mention prophets and messengers, because they achieved the peace, which is the peace of Allaha,amongst them are Moses and Jesus. We call christians and jews the people of the book(the word bible comes from the latin word Bibleo which means "book") And the prophet of "islaam" is Muhammed upon him is the peace, who came with the truth (to work to achieve peace with Allaha through obeying Him and do mending deeds in this life.)

We have been given this life and it is up to us what to do with it, the best thing is to leave it behind in a better state then when we came to it(when we were born) through doing mending works, and after we die our deeds and their effect on others is what will remain, and for our deeds we will be rewarded in the hereafter.

This is submission for the sake of peace.



-------------
If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.
Mother Teresa


Posted By: tgrant
Date Posted: 09 November 2005 at 4:21pm

Let me give you the perspective of someone who is not Muslim (or believer in any other faith for that matter).

I was at a park in Southern California the other day.  A large group of Muslims were there having some sort of party, maybe 100 or so.  I was fascinated and curious so I watched them for 5 to 10 minutes.  ALL of the women were gathered around the table preparing the meal.  Each of them were dressed in the traditional Islamic garb for women.  NONE of them were laughing, smiling or appeared to be enjoying the beautiful day.  They did not even appear to be engaged in conversation with each other.  On the other hand, ALL of the men were dressed in comfortable, stylish, casual clothing.  They were laughing, drinking, playing games.  NOT ONE SINGLE male was speaking to a female.

I don't think these people are terrorists but, you know what, this looks like an awful way to spend your life, particularly for the women.  Maybe they accept their lot in life and act accordingly but it "appears" to be oppression to a person like me who has been taught and believes in his heart that we are all equal, male and female.  I enjoy the company of women.  I love to hear their opinions and at times we engage in lively debate.  And you know what, sometimes the women WIN!

Whenever Islam decides to enter the 21st century maybe then outsiders will stop stereotyping Muslims. 

 



Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 3:00am
Originally posted by tgrant

Let me give you the perspective of someone who is not Muslim (or believer in any other faith for that matter).


I was at a park in Southern California the other day.  A large group of Muslims were there having some sort of party, maybe 100 or so.  I was fascinated and curious so I watched them for 5 to 10 minutes.  ALL of the women were gathered around the table preparing the meal.  Each of them were dressed in the traditional Islamic garb for women.  NONE of them were laughing, smiling or appeared to be enjoying the beautiful day.  They did not even appear to be engaged in conversation with each other.  On the other hand, ALL of the men were dressed in comfortable, stylish, casual clothing.  They were laughing, drinking, playing games.  NOT ONE SINGLE male was speaking to a female.


I don't think these people are terrorists but, you know what, this looks like an awful way to spend your life, particularly for the women.  Maybe they accept their lot in life and act accordingly but it "appears" to be oppression to a person like me who has been taught and believes in his heart that we are all equal, male and female.  I enjoy the company of women.  I love to hear their opinions and at times we engage in lively debate.  And you know what, sometimes the women WIN!


Whenever Islam decides to enter the 21st century maybe then outsiders will stop stereotyping Muslims. 


 



Islam is perfect religion, it has no room for correction; but unfortunately people do wierd things in the name of Islam and people support it; It the people who have to change and follow the corect Islam that is in Quran and Sunnah; Islam gave freedom to women long time ago (even before west did!!!)
But people twist the quran according to their own needs, and present Islam as an extremist and backward religion

-------------


Posted By: tgrant
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:42am

See statements like "Islam is perfect religion, it has no room for correction" scare the Hell out of someone like me.  Aside from it causing stagnation of any cultural or social development, it means that you will do whatever this ancient book, written by a single individual, tells you to do. 

Since 9/11 I've tried to better understand Islam.  I've read excerpts of the Quran and, quite franking, it sounds like the rantings of psychotic individual.  Sure there are a lot of good guidelines in it but there are also a lot of very disturbing passages.  Your complete acceptance of is as "perfect" even when it flies in the face of logic, reason and observation I find terrifying.

Regarding women here a few quick searches of the Quran I just generated. 

4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

2:222 They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

Granted, some things may get lost in translation but, come on, these are barbaric and ridiculous attitudes.  You guys are stuck in Medieval Times.  Islam will never be accepted by modern cultures while such sanctioned oppression exists nor will Islamic women tolerate such oppression indefinitely.



Posted By: tgrant
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:24pm

Oh, and here's some sound advice on how to treat your slaves, etc.:

24:33 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

58:3 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered,- (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.

 

That's some religion you guys got going on there.  Way to make the World a better place.



Posted By: tgrant
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:36pm

24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Oh yeah, that really going to fly in a modern culture.

 



Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:14pm

tgrant, thankyou for taking the interest to read the Qur'an. Yes, even a Muslim who reads the Qur'an casually for the first time will think in the same way as you are thinking. This is because our minds and thoughts are conditioned to the behaviour that we see and experience around us everyday. The people around us and the environment that we live in sets for us what we believe is right or wrong. These rights and wrong are not compared against any criterion and anything that does not conform with the set of standards that we have set up for ourselves is dismissed as medieval or barbaric. But are the standards that we have set up for ourselves delivering the goods? Are we living in a society that is giving us true happiness (not drug induced euphoria)?

I don't think the western society that I live in is really happy. There are fathers who don't know if the child that they are providing for is really their's! There are parents worried about their teenager whether he or she will come home clean. Free sex, drugs, rock and roll, nudity, alcohol, gambling, homosexulaity and even incest are the most shameful things that are in existence today. Would you not want that all the above came to an end and we had a clean society? I certainly do. My heart cries for that homeless teenager in the street injecting himself/herself with God knows what! If only the parents whom he/she was born to had instilled in them some good values they would not be in the situation that they are in. The vicious cycle goes on and everything slowly becomes acceptable - sex without marriage, promiscuity, gay priests, alcohol in moderation, drug injecting rooms, gambling in moderation...... A CHAOTIC WORLD!

But this chaos does not exist in a household that follows the criterion that God has set out for mankind. Why, eventhough they follow these medieval and barbaric laws? Because they have accepted that the answers man has to all the evils in the world are flawed! After all who is man - was he not created out of a despicable fluid? And does he put aside God's wisdom and think he has the answers? My friend there is far greater significance to the verses you have quoted if only you would ponder and seek the commentary to those verses from well known scholars such as Yusuf Ali or Ibn Kathir (the latter I have heard is very good).



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:39pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

If you are talking about the traslator of the Quran Yusuf Ali he was a civil servant not a proper muslim scholar.

Today, tens of publishers have reprinted his translation, some even taking the liberty of changing it without acknowledging that changes have been made. Why these changes were necessary has not been explained either. Some, like the Saudis, have reprinted the translation with their own imprints as if it was commissioned by king Fahd in person. Such lack of honesty even with so noble a book as the Qur'an is reflective of the pathetic state of those who have imposed themselves on the Ummah. 

http://www.afkar.com/yusuf.html - and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Shamil
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 9:51pm

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

If you are talking about the traslator of the Quran Yusuf Ali he was a civil servant not a proper muslim scholar.

Today, tens of publishers have reprinted his translation, some even taking the liberty of changing it without acknowledging that changes have been made. Why these changes were necessary has not been explained either. Some, like the Saudis, have reprinted the translation with their own imprints as if it was commissioned by king Fahd in person. Such lack of honesty even with so noble a book as the Qur'an is reflective of the pathetic state of those who have imposed themselves on the Ummah. 

http://www.afkar.com/yusuf.html - SEARCHING FOR SOLACE: A BIOGRAPHY OF ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI.

http://www.iiie.net/1/content/view/33/44/ -

This is why all Muslims should devote at least part of each day to the study of the Arabic language. A translation of the Holy Qur'an is not the Qur'an but an interpretation and does not hold the validity of the original text.



Posted By: tgrant
Date Posted: 11 November 2005 at 8:54am

On the role of women, let me ask it this way.  According to the Quran, are women to be subserviant to men?  Yes or no.  From my, al beit limited, observations, Muslim men appear to treat their wifes as property.  This is a show stopper in civilized cultures which will always make Islam a barbaric and unacceptable religion.  Is this behavior cultural or does in have its roots in the Quran?

rami: Your insightfulness into the dangers of interpretation should send up red flags.  You see, ALL communication is subject to interpretation.  [moderator edited] read the forum guidlines beffore you post.

BTW: I Actually happen to enjoy rock and roll.  Free sex would be great but I haven't come accross that just yet.  I'm not much into the other "vices" you mentioned but I believe in a person's freedom to make their own choices.  See this is were we differ.  You believe that EVERY persons behavior should be dictated by a book YOU find fullfilling.  I don't care if you wish to live in a cave or a castle, eat meat or vegatables, or what clothes you wear.  Live your life, follow your beliefs.  Just be tolerant of others who choose a different path. 

IMHO all religions feel that they constantly must recruit new membership becauase they are conflicted by the contractitions and illogic of their belief system.  They need others to agree with them so that they can feel a sense of "safety in numbers".



-------------


Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 11 November 2005 at 3:15pm

Tgrant wrote: BTW: I Actually happen to enjoy rock and roll.  Free sex would be great but I haven't come accross that just yet.  I'm not much into the other "vices" you mentioned but I believe in a person's freedom to make their own choices.  See this is were we differ.  You believe that EVERY persons behavior should be dictated by a book YOU find fullfilling.  I don't care if you wish to live in a cave or a castle, eat meat or vegatables, or what clothes you wear.  Live your life, follow your beliefs.  Just be tolerant of others who choose a different path. 

I am not intolerant of what you do or don't do. To everyone his own. I will not be held accountable for what you do and you won't be held accountable for me. It is not me going on to other religions websites and preaching my religion. When people come on to a website which is meant to expound Islam I am here to help clarify why I believe Islam can offer complete happiness and fulfillment, not the pseudo happiness that you seem to enjoy. You have taken the time to read the Quran and have yourself said that there is a lot of good in it. If you approach it with a clean heart and a cool mind and patience you will also see the truth. There are many who have found the truth and happiness and will never turn away and there are those who approach it in order to find fault and they are blinded, so they continue to blunder about. It is upto you which path you choose. May God guide you.



Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 11 November 2005 at 4:16pm

Tgrant wrote: On the role of women, let me ask it this way.  According to the Quran, are women to be subserviant to men?  Yes or no.  From my, al beit limited, observations, Muslim men appear to treat their wifes as property.  This is a show stopper in civilized cultures which will always make Islam a barbaric and unacceptable religion.  Is this behavior cultural or does in have its roots in the Quran?

The short answer to your question is NO. The roles of Men and women are defined. It is the duty of the Man to provide for his wife and children and also has a duty towards his parents. It is the duty of the woman to safeguard her husband's property in his absence. If the woman has her own earnings, these are for her to keep. He has no right to demand it from her. She can choose to share it or not share it with her husband. She has a share in her husband's estate upon his death and she has a share in her parents estate as well. One thing that at first glance intrigues Muslims and non-Muslims alike is why she receives only half of what a man receives. This is because God has assigned certain duties to men and certain duties to women. While whatever she receives is hers to keep, he has a duty to take care of his family.

Also please don't judge Islam by what you perceive in the behaviour of Muslims. Just as in any other religion there are different types of Muslims and each one will be judged on their own.



Posted By: Shamil
Date Posted: 12 November 2005 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by tgrant

From my, al beit limited, observations, Muslim men appear to treat their wifes as property. 

And of course in America, where men regularly go to clubs where women strip for them, and in some states legally use women as prostitutes, there is such a higher respect for women. Most civilized.



Posted By: Abeer23
Date Posted: 12 November 2005 at 2:27pm
Shamil,


Posted By: tgrant
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 12:31pm

Maryga wrote: The roles of Men and women are defined.

This is were you lose me.  Why do religions have such a need to cast human being into certain roles based on their genitilia?  Why not use hair color?   Or better yet skin color.  This is how America was able to build the strongest economy in the world.  By casting blacks as sub-human.  Yeah, that worked out great.

Why not let a human being define his or her own "role" in life?  Why not let them make their own decisions, good or bad.  Strippers expose their bodies to men and take home thousands of dollars per week.  So who's really being exploited here, the men or the women?  The point is that no one is holding a gun to anyone's head.

 



Posted By: freebird
Date Posted: 06 December 2005 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by tgrant

This is were you lose me.  Why do religions have such a need to cast human being into certain roles based on their genitilia?  Why not use hair color?   Or better yet skin color.  This is how America was able to build the strongest economy in the world.  By casting blacks as sub-human.  Yeah, that worked out great.

In the past the humanity ignored their differences based on their genitilia and the result was - they did not know that their existance and continous existance relied havily by the existance of women who bring humanity into this world. It was religion who inform humanity of this abnormality. Men with men was normal relationship, they just did not know what was wrong with it. 

But yes, if there was no information regarding this or ignore it and they would extinct, we would not be here by now.

Beside that, physically women are weaker and thats why they are encouraged to use their head. Anyway I don't actually know what is your rant all about other than just rant: 

Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward. (33:35)

Originally posted by

Why not let a human being define his or her own "role" in life?  Why not let them make their own decisions, good or bad.

We live in this world as a community, a bad conduct by one member craete an impact or impact to others, commonsense.

Originally posted by

Strippers expose their bodies to men and take home thousands of dollars per week.
 

So, once you have your way than every woman strip their clothes, will than each and every one of them will take home thousands of dollars per week? The harvard economist will disagree with you - I think.

Originally posted by

So who's really being exploited here, the men or the women?  The point is that no one is holding a gun to anyone's head.

Try refuse to pay tax on your payroll and tell them that you are a free guy who does not live under any master, and see what's happen. It does not do any good barking in here. 



Posted By: Falcon
Date Posted: 08 December 2005 at 11:04pm

*First post, from a female Christian in USA.

tgrant - I was withya buddy; then, well I simply had to disagree.....

Men and Women ARE cast in certain roles because we ARE different.  How can you put hair, skin color in the same basket as genetalia?  Men and Women can have the same hair and skin color, but most men and women - well, the genetalia is what "defines" them, thus you call them Man or Woman(except in cases of birth defects as hermaphrodite etc...)

Man did not only build strong economy of world only on basis of casting blacks as subhuman - it is "OUR" nature, mankind to be Evil first and Righteous only as struggle through discipline.  We are BORN of sin.

My point (that I don't clearly nor quickly make, sorry) - my point is that - we SHOULD not "make our own choices" based on our own "feeeeelings" of what our role in life should be because then where are the boundaries?  Then there is no line between right and wrong....        &nb sp;         &nb sp;     Like NAMBLA(North American Man/Boy Love Association)>those perverted pedophiles SICKEN me - but they profess it as their CHOICE..........and the ACLU has even come to their defense (reference Michael Savage books and Bill O'Reilly books - conservative American radio hosts.)

We believers base our choices(should)on precise and accurate religeous doctrine word of God - I choose to believe the Bible's teachings that Jesus IS the Son of God.  The New Testament teaches me to follow Jesus and his desciples, not turn to a different source (Qur'an nor Muhammed)

Yes, God gave us free will - but He hopes we choose righteousness and He teaches us through the Bible what is sin, what is right, wrong, perverted, what corrupts, what kills, etc....         Where lies your moral compass?>based on your 'self' determining the rules of right and/or wrong?  based on another 'mans' word - a mere mortal human being?  We are so ignorant and unworthy of such power compared to God.  We humans could NEVER have imagined such perfections as in the laws of physics, the vast universe, the miracle of conception, birth, creation, the details of existance, DNA, scientific relationship connections of energy and matter....etc.  There HAS to be a God(as far as I base my faith)        

I digress - back to original topic - I, as a Christian visiting this site would simply state that I happen to NOT believe that most of the Muslims are terrorists, but I still have serious reservations about Islam and Muslims........

I appreciate your time if you chose to read - sorry for the long post.

 



Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 09 December 2005 at 2:31am
Originally posted by tgrant

Maryga wrote: The roles of Men and women are defined.

This is were you lose me. Why do religions have such a need to cast human being into certain roles based on their genitilia? Why not use hair color?



If you look at history, man and woman had different roles.

During the stone age male used to humt for food while woman prepared it, y? because at that time men were twice the size of female.

IF you look in the religion, all the prophets were men, (ie Adam, Jesus,Moses,Joseph,David)

IF you look at "American scientific", there us an article about difference between male and female brain in humans. therefore they have different roles

"Several intriguing behavioral studies add to the evidence that some sex differences in the brain arise before a baby draws its first breath."





Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 09 December 2005 at 6:53am

Bismillah,

Has a study been done to see where most of the Muslims are in the range of liberal to extreme?  That would be a very interesting thing to read.

There are many different sects and types of Muslims all over the world.  We have to try really hard in this world to find out the facts, the truths, that this world holds.  Keep looking, but look longer, much longer.  Be scientific about your search; keep records.  A little story here and there can't lead you to a scientific conclusion.

I have been to many of those parties.  The women do laugh and have fun many times.  So you just didn't stay long enough to see that.  Yes, many of the women are the primary cooks of the family.  What is your problem with that?  But many of the cookouts the men cook the meat and work the entire cookout also.  I guess you didn't see one like that yet.

We have parties inside where the women dance, laugh, sing and talk.  It's really fun.  Women can and do have fun as Muslim women.  I like being in parties with women and no men because I can be myself, like a kid I guess, and not worry about some guy's impression of me.  I never had much fun at the ones I had to go to as a young girl.  My church had dances that we were encouraged to attend.  They were so uncomfortable!  But that's me.  Well, come to think of it, most of the girls and guys just sat around staring at the floor.  Hmm.

And guess what?  According to Websters I'm probably a fundamentalist.  I'm very opinionated, you might have noticed.  Also, the women in my husband's family, whom are Phalasteeni, are opionated, outspoken and strong women.  A lot of them take care of the kids at home and cook while their husbands work outside the home.

There have to be four witnesses to leud behavior.  These fools who implement the Quraanic laws differently are causing the trouble, not the Quraan itself.

Slavery was accepted and Allah, SWT, was guiding the people in different ways to leave the evil of slavery behind.  The Muslims did it faster and more efficiently than say, Tom Jeffereson and George Washington, who had slaves when they died and did not properly provide for them to be freed and stay with their families and have homes.  Slavery is not acceptable now, and people who do this will be punished by God when they die, if not in this world also.

Rami, I guess I'm the revert of a civil servant then because it was his translation and commentary that caused me to accept Islam years ago. 



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 10 December 2005 at 6:18pm

Tgrant wrote: “This is were you lose me.  Why do religions have such a need to cast human being into certain roles based on their genitilia?  Why not use hair color?   Or better yet skin color.  This is how America was able to build the strongest economy in the world.  By casting blacks as sub-human.  Yeah, that worked out great.”

 

I’m sorry Tgrant, I don’t blame you for your understanding of the issue. It is the environment in which you were brought up that inhibits your understanding of something so basic as the differences between a man and a woman. If you believe that the order in which life exists in most parts of the western worlds (which is also permeating to the third world) is perfect then I’d say please continue to enjoy your life in which you have found bliss. But I don’t believe this is so and many are seeking to look out for that perfect order and fortunately, are finding it the truth in Islam.

 

I think others here have responded to you and I just wish to add that when God has created man and woman differently and when that difference has been based on the word that you use, He has also defined the roles and functions of each of them. A man cannot give birth to a child nor can he wean a child. The physical differences have been attributed to fulfil the roles assigned. No role is in any way inferior or superior and one cannot exist without the other. The lack of this basic understanding has led to the chaos that exists today. Women are taking up the roles of men and we have broken families, single parents and children who don’t know who their real fathers are etc. If you think that is the perfect world God help!

 

America may be the strongest economy today but are all Americans happy? Here in Australia I have seen a string of documentaries called 30 days (I think) based on the life and society in America, but I can say that the poor in India are more happier than those poor Americans. And you will be pleased to know that in Islam we don’t differentiate anyone by the colour of their skin or hair, everyone is equal before God.



Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 10 December 2005 at 6:20pm

Falcon wrote: Man did not only build strong economy of world only on basis of casting blacks as subhuman - it is "OUR" nature, mankind to be Evil first and Righteous only as struggle through discipline.  We are BORN of sin.

 

IF the nature of mankind is to be evil first then I think all children born are born with satanic qualities and should have been buried as soon as they were born and the world would have been free of all evil. This makes absolutely no sense. On the other hand Islam believes that every child that is born is pure and free of all evil and comes with the will to submit completely to God. It is the parents or people around the child that make him/her become whatever they become. We are not born of sin rather we commit sin by absorbing satanic qualities of greed, hate etc. But when we seek to rectify ourselves then we also begin our search for guidance. Only a constant desire to cleanse oneself of sin can lead to the search for true guidance. That true guidance is in the belief of the existence of the One and Only true God and to work righteousness by following what He has enjoined.

 

Unlike the belief of the Christians that man is born of sin, in Islam we believe that man is born pure and has the opportunity to remain pure by believing in the One God and working righteousness. Then he has the hope of a good hereafter. He is accountable for all his actions and only true repentance can wipe out his sins and one cannot escape by just getting baptized into a Christian and confessing his sins to a priest.

Falcon also wrote: We believers base our choices(should)on precise and accurate religeous doctrine word of God - I choose to believe the Bible's teachings that Jesus IS the Son of God.  The New Testament teaches me to follow Jesus and his desciples, not turn to a different source (Qur'an nor Muhammed)

 

I agree with the first part of your first statement, but with regards to the second part your statement, let me tell you that recently some churches have come forward and admitted that not all parts of the Bible are true. The main bone of contention between the Muslims and the Christians is the belief of the Christians in the divinity of Christ. To Muslims God cannot be compared with man and God does not possess any of the baser functions of a man. – such as eating, drinking, excreting etc. God is far above all this and is free of all wants. But Jesus performed all the functions of a human being as above and yet you attribute divinity to him? Falcon think carefully, many priests have also become Muslims by opening their minds and finding the clear logic of Islam


Posted By: tgrant
Date Posted: 21 December 2005 at 12:11pm

You guys have no idea how hillarious this is to me.  Wathing a debate on the merits of Christianity vs. Islam is like watching two children debate the "science" behind what makes raindeer fly.  Your assumptions are inane to say the least.

I've seen several references in this thread regarding the openmindedness required to understand Islam but before you spend the rest of your lives debating that which is untestable and hence unknowable you might want to "open your minds" to a few other possibilities:

Secular Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org/ - http://www.secularhumanism.org/

String Theory: http://www.superstringtheory.com/ - http://www.superstringtheory.com/

Goedel's Theorem: http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/Logic/goedel.html - http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/Logic/goedel.html

I guess a good analogy would be that you are attempting to understand how an automobile works without looking under the hood.  You're sitting in the comfortable cabin speculating about squirls on treadmills and, worse yet, mystic powers which propel the vehicle.  Take a look under the hood folks.  You might be suprised at the progess intellectuals have been quitely making while the rest of us sat on the sidelines with our fantasies.

Good luck



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 21 December 2005 at 1:36pm

Bismillah,

If you don't respect us, you really need to leave, Grant.  I took the time to look at your sites.  Sorry, I don't have time for a course in string theory right now.  As for the human secularism site, don't they have a discussion board there where you can communicate with people on your own level?

People who have faith have assumptions.  God is many things to us, and you have no respect for that and don't wish to learn anything from such "inane" people.  Go save the planet; it needs you.



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 21 December 2005 at 6:44pm

Good on you Herjihad! Aptly said! I wonder why Tgrant came on to his site in the first place when he has already found the company of "intellectuals".

 



Posted By: liberty
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 6:26am

In your debate of Christianity vs Islam, there is no winner.  Every person must find their own way, some choose Judaism, some choose Islam, etc..  However, most accept the religion they are taught growing up!  A sort of indoctrination process.

A religion is based upon faith, there is not one true, correct religion.  Anyone claiming there faith or religion is the one and true religion is overreaching.

Tgran seems to have found a belief he is comfortable with and is just challenging you intellectually and your response is to tell him to get lost.  It is very important in todays world that we keep lines of communication open especially when we disagree.



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 8:11am

Bismillah,

No, Lib, people come on this site for the sole purpose of laughing at and ridiculing believers, Muslims, multi-culturalism et cetera.  There are a lot of cases where others have dallied with such folks, and that is up to each of us.  However, we enjoy real intellectual challenges. 

 So it is very important not to clog the airwaves with senseless ridicule by succintly closing  the lines of degradation.



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: liberty
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 10:59am

I am new to the discussion board and must tell you that I also see ridicule.  But most of it is done by pro-islam members against anyone with a differing opinion.

My purpose here is not to offend anyone but ask questions to gain a better understanding of Islam and share with you one westerners opinions.

My main purpose is to find out if there is any true compromise between our value of free speech and Islam.  Or does Islam demand punishment or death for saying, writing, drawing, certain things?  In this case there is no middle ground and there is no hope of Islam and western values coexisting.

Am I the only one concerned over the fate of Europe with its growing Muslim population?  Will it soon become the terrorists backyard as Israel is?  And I mean terrorists from both sides of the conflict, Muslims and Europeans!  The IRA was quite a successful terrorist organization.  Will we soon just be killing each other in small blasts until someone finally has had enough and decides to use a nuclear weapon?



Posted By: Ketchup
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 11:41am
Originally posted by liberty

Am I the only one concerned over the fate of Europe with its growing Muslim population?  Will it soon become the terrorists backyard as Israel is?  And I mean terrorists from both sides of the conflict, Muslims and Europeans!  The IRA was quite a successful terrorist organization.  Will we soon just be killing each other in small blasts until someone finally has had enough and decides to use a nuclear weapon?

No you are not.  It is a much discussed topic of conversation for us British.  The fact that we are seeing our very own culture erode before our eyes at an alarming rate resulting in fear.  Many veiw that ultimately we will turn into another Iraq.  We are seeing the beginnings already with the protests, flag burning and "westerners you will die" banners.  Can anyone tell my why every muslim country is in chaos?

Personally I am trying to get my head around the whole thing, and it isnt easy.

Please don't compare the IRA to muslim terrorists it is a completely different issue as the essence of thier attacks was over land which spiralled out of control.  Now pretty much disbanded since the 9/11 attacks.  Did you know they use to send a warning before they attacked?  While unjustifiable its still completely different planting a bomb to walking onto a crowded train with a knapsack.



Posted By: liberty
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 12:16pm

Can anyone tell my why every muslim country is in chaos?

Interesting question.  But will there be any answer that does not blame the West?

I am surely not qualified to answer or comment since I do not live in a Muslim nation.  I can only comment intelligently about the politics in the USA.

It will be quite interesting hearing a response to this question.



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 1:29pm
IMHO, the reason is that there not only is no caliphate, but that the
concept of an ummah has been proven to be a complete fiction.

We have a deadly Muslim civil war in Iraq, and the best the "ummah" can
do is manufacture protests about cartoons. In fact, I cannot think of one
positive pro islamic action taken recently. The "ummah" only exists to
express anger or blame, something the Prophet expressly warned
against.

Sharia is enforced against the weak and powerless, but the rich and
politically popular are politely ignored.

I'd like to see every Muslim who is physically able to make a pilgrimmage
to Baghdad. Fill the streets with millions of Muslims in prayer. The US
and warring Sunni and Shiite factions would be completely flummoxed. It
would result in an immediate cessation of hostilities and an undeniable
Islamic victory for a united ummah.

But I don't think it will happen. We will have more cartoon protests,
increasing the income and popularity of the blaspheming cartoonists,
and Muslim deaths in Iraq will increase.

-------------
David C.


Posted By: Ketchup
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 1:41pm
I wasnt just refering to Iraq.


Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 10:19pm

DavidC, Brilliant response. I completely agree.

Ketchup & Liberty, most Muslims do not accept the actions of those Muslims who are involved in violent protest. It is wrong. The cartoons were expression of a satanic quality (inciting hatred & anger) and the response is also a satanic quality (blind rage knowing no boundaries).

The crux of the problem lies in the attitude of the United States and its supporters. The illegal occupation of Palestine by Israel with the blatant support of the US  and the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan by the US & its supporting countries - this is at the heart of the hurt and anger which most Muslims feel for their brethren. The response of the weak and the victims is really bad. But in democracies people have the power to bring down governments which are the cause of terrorism. But we are passive observers giving our "wise" comments and hiding in the comfort of our homes. Unless we (every individual of a western democracy) take responsibility and do as some of us did prior to the Iraq war (rallies of protest against the invasion) we are equally responsible for the terrorism we see and sometimes become victims of.



Posted By: liberty
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 10:30pm

Maryga, are you suggesting that the US should not have gone after Bin Laden is Afghanistan although the Taliban government was protecting the men responsible for 9/11?

Once again I must state that I and many Americans did not support going into Iraq since they had no connection with Bin Laden.

However, I would suspect that if you ask most Iraqis today if they could choose between Sadam and a democratic government most would NOT choose Sadam.

The US should get out of Iraq ASAP!



Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 10:50pm

However, I would suspect that if you ask most Iraqis today if they could choose between Sadam and a democratic government most would NOT choose Sadam.

Apologies! Apologies! That is why I say that everyone in a democracy is responsible for the ghost of terrorism which strikes us unawares! In your second sentence you first say you did not support the US going into Iraq and in the very next breath you join in the chorus of getting rid of Saddam!

The US did not go into Iraq to get rid of Saddam! They went on a false pretext of WMDs and the main intention was to open up the Muslim world for their evangelical crusade and also benefit from the Oil! But it all went horribly wrong with thousands of Iraqis dead!

Same with hunting the ghost of Bin Laden! Destruction, destruction, nothing but destruction & chaos! What have they achieved? More terrorists! Isn't it? So you still apologise and defend your government? Then you and I, if I were also to believe that the US was justified in its acts would become responsible for the conditions we face today.



Posted By: liberty
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 11:10pm

I did not join in the chorus of getting rid of Saddam.

What I said was: Ask an Iraqi if he/she would rather continue with the democracy they have now or go back to Sadam's rule.  Which do you think he/she would choose?

I have never supported nor will ever support having gone into Iraq.

 



Posted By: Ketchup
Date Posted: 12 February 2006 at 2:39am
Originally posted by liberty

I did not join in the chorus of getting rid of Saddam.

What I said was: Ask an Iraqi if he/she would rather continue with the democracy they have now or go back to Sadam's rule.  Which do you think he/she would choose?

I have never supported nor will ever support having gone into Iraq.

 

Well said.   Ukers will remember the massive divide over going to Iraq so while I continue to disagree with the war, I refuse to turn my back on my fellow country men who are posted out there because I'm sure as hell they dont want to be there either.



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 12 February 2006 at 7:17am
Bin Laden is the primary cause of the mess in Mesopotamia. The US
avoided retaliatory attacks on the USS Cole and the embassies in Africa,
both of which bin Laden took "credit" for.

The attack on Afghanistan after 9/11 was the last straw. Removing
Saddam was underplanned and oversold, but I don't think anyone misses
Saddam.

The problem TODAY is the civil war. The US is not going to pass out
reconstruction money to al-Qaeda, and a US inspired government is
temporary at best. Iraq needs to get these so-called insurgents out of
there, put up withh the fact that the US is going to have an influence
during reconstruction, and develop a political system that will be able to
take over in five years.

If everybody would just stop with the hindsight and idiot-logical
posturing maybe the problem could just get fixed. We need pragmatism
- good people are being killed and thieves on both sides are getting rich.

Iraq needs major, peaceful protest on the ground in Baghdad. If the
Saudis can organize the Hajj they can organize this too.

-------------
David C.


Posted By: liberty
Date Posted: 12 February 2006 at 8:15am

I sincerely hope that the US is out of there completely with in 5 years or sooner.  However, how long will it take for the muslims in the middle east to accept a democratically elected government in Iraq that does not have it's laws determine according to Koran?



Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 12 February 2006 at 3:24pm

A democratically elected government should be accepted by everyone isn't it Liberty? But when the super power who "champions" for democracy in the Middle East, does not want to accept the democratic choice of the people of Palestine, do you think the dicatorial regimes of many decades will embrace whatever your country imposes upon them? The world is truly tired of big brother. You may not understand this especially because even the press there seems to be very much in control of the government. The documentaries I have seen about the US here re-confirm my repulsion of that country. And it is hard to come across anyone in other countries who would speak one good thing about your government.

And what is wrong with having its laws determined in accordance with the Qur'an? There is no crime, no prostitution, no nudity on the streets of Saudi Arabia and that is what Muslims who like modesty and decency like to see.



Posted By: liberty
Date Posted: 12 February 2006 at 6:27pm

And what is wrong with having its laws determined in accordance with the Qur'an?

There is a lot wrong with it for people who are not Muslims!  Or do you plan on forcing everyone one to convert or just accept Muslim law as the final word.  Not everyone, and I would think this is true even in the middle east, wants to live according to the Koran.  Not all believe in this text, just as in the West not all believe in the Bible.

As it is, it difficult enough for me to live in the USA with these fundamentalist Christians trying to push their pro-Christian agenda. No religious state for me, thank you.

We could also eliminate all sin by making them punishable by death.  Then we could live in a place where there is no crime, and no prostitution.  Would you like to live under this rule of law?



Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 12 February 2006 at 6:54pm

Liberty, first of all in Islam there is no forced conversion. One conveys the message and that is it. It is upto the individual to take it or leave it. Where Shariah Law is concerned  - not everything will be applicable to non_muslims. Only social laws such as dress code, behaviour, punishments for certain crimes such as theft etc are those that would apply. I am not an expert at Shariah law, but I am aware that in the past where Shariah law was prevalent, non-Muslims received protection from the state and were happy. 

Not all sins are punishable by death. I would certainly like to live in a place where there is no crime and no prostitution, would'nt you? We wouldn't have to worry about our children walking home from school alone, teenagers returning home late and school kids going on shooting rampages etc. Every system has its advantages and disadvantages. To rule out one to the exclusion of the prevalent is a folly, especially knowing well the high crime rate and deterioration of morality that is today. 



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 12 February 2006 at 11:20pm

And what is wrong with having its laws determined in
accordance with the Qur'an?



If your judges are true prophets, maybe nothing.

As I recall, the companions of the prophet began disputing the law soon
after the Prophet's death and it resulted in many evil events. These were
good, religious people but politics was their downfall.

Christianity had it's Holy Roman Empire for centuries. The religion was
poisoned by politics and Satan.

Using religion as law has always resulted in the corruption of religion. It
has never resulted in a sanctified society.

Law is the very definition of compulsion. No compulsion in religion is a
most excellent concept.

I ask you: what kind of fool thinks he can legislate Satan out of existence?
And you want HIM as your judge?

-------------
David C.


Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 2:55am
What is the alternative you suggest David C? Ignore Allah's laws only because man did not implement it correctly? Islam has also seen a golden era during the time of Hazrat Umar, do we ignore all those successes and prevail upon what went wrong?


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 5:42am
I think laws should be enacted only when there is objective damage to
human life or property. Restrictions and corrections should be minimal.

If God is the only one offended, punishment should be left entirely to God.
We all offend God and sin several times a day. To pick and choose which
sins should suffer earthly consequences always ends up as "your sin is
worse than my sin" and forces judges to the blasphemous condition of
having to speak amd act in the name of God.

Believers of course will obey God's laws willingly.

I am unfamiliar with Hazrat Umar. Please start a new thread; it sounds like a
good topic.

-------------
David C.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 1:26pm

Originally posted by DavidC

I think laws should be enacted only when there is objective damage to
human life or property. Restrictions and corrections should be minimal.
ok, that is understandable to certain extent. 

Originally posted by DavidC


If God is the only one offended, punishment should be left entirely to God.
We all offend God and sin several times a day.
This part may refer to "no compulsion of faith" in Islam.

Originally posted by DavidC

 To pick and choose which sins should suffer earthly consequences always ends up as "your sin is worse than my sin" and forces judges to the blasphemous condition of having to speak amd act in the name of God.
Brother, there are some differences here between Christianity and Islam where the former (most of them) looks at the bipolar view of society (State vs church) whereas the later considers it as one whole nonseperable entity. Quran provides legal discourses on civil/criminal matters (those that usually offend a society) more than its religious matters. Just for example, one may find very detailed instructions on "inheritance law" in Quran but won't find much on as how to offer his 5 times a day obligatory prayer. Clearly, the matters of faith/intention are not bound under any human law except what has been kept for them after their death by the God alone. Therefore, it is not prudent to apply the same principle everywhere.

Originally posted by DavidC


Believers of course will obey God's laws willingly.
Obedience to God is not only in matter of faith but practically, must reflect through their dealings with other humans as well. Here the famous concept of "rights of God" VS "rights of humans" in Islam may also be recalled where God ,though may forgive His rights over a human, but shall never forgive the rights of one human over the other untill that human himself may not forgive the individual. It is for this purpose of securing the rights of humans among each other that Quran provides for the best legal protection. Therefore, in Islam, faith is not just a personal matter, but a responsibility towards other humans in his day to day routine, for which laws are made available to the people through Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammad.

The question of how to deal with non-Muslim living in Muslim dominated society, equitably and justly, are also part of this. If anyone needs to discuss them, certainly it would be a good thread to look at.



Posted By: Maryga
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 2:49pm

If God is the only one offended, punishment should be left entirely to God.

David, punishments exist in every system and thank God for them. Imagine a society where all punishments are left to God. I go to the shopping centre late in the evening when most of the crowds are gone yet, I come back disgusted with the sights I see. Perhaps people would walk about without the little clothes they put on these days.

Laws only for damage to human life & property! what about morality? I would'nt want to see an Ummah where like in some homes the father does not know if the child he is providing for is really his!

 



Posted By: liberty
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 4:51pm

Originally posted by DavidC

I think laws should be enacted only when there is objective damage to human life or property. Restrictions and corrections should be minimal.

Yes. Yes. Government should intrude upon our lives as little as necessary.  They should stay out of our personal lives and decisions.  Many people in the West that agree with this are uneasy with Islam since religion and politics seemed linked.

Are muslims happy living the democratic states or are they working towards making them Islamic states?



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 7:15pm
Maryga - trhank you for your response, but please reread my post. There
is a considerable gray area and yes, some issues of morality impact life
and property. And many do not.

AhmadJoyia - Islam is fully capable of deconstructing obedience to
church and state. Evidence al-Ghazzali's beautiful deconstructions of the
nature of God. What can be more inseperable than God? The refusal to
logically deconstruct church and state is simply an avoidance of the
question.

The integration of church and state in Islam seems, to me, based on the
relationship of God to each individual soul. Within this relationship the
church and state are viewed as inseperable. All aspects of one's life must
certainly be oriented towards God

When one considers the relationship of man to his fellow man - politics -
I do not think the same inseperability applies. We have a God that loves
variety and has created each one of us differently, so each of us has a
slightly different relationship with God. We are all slaves of God, but we
have different tasks. The needs of a field slave are different from that of
a scribe slave, and each can - indeed must - have different politics if they
are to maintain an authentic relationship with God.


-------------
David C.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 9:10am

Bro, I think, your formula might work as long as these so called different task oriented "slaves" don't cross intereact with each other. However, the moment they come across each other, and that is a matter of fact, only that which emphasizes common rules of politics (i.e. Islam) can keep them "humans" on earth.

I think, this discussion of "church VS State" can also be viewed as "athism VS theism". For this kindly refer to my on going discussion with bro Tim at http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=555&PN=1&TPN=4 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=555& PN=1&TPN=4

 



Posted By: Charles Wehner
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by Begbie



Originally posted by ak_m_f

A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack.


Wow, I did not know this. Can you provide a link to some articles where this was stated ?

Originally posted by ak_m_f

The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.


Really ?!!! Again, I would be most interested in finding out more on this. Do you have any further information on the perpetrator ?

Timothy McVeigh who was executed for the Oklahoma City Bombing was a neo-Nazi who was trying to start the revolution foretold in the Turner Diaries.  He was a combat engineer attached to the Marines and studied his bomb making at Fort Leavenworth.  I do remember when the bomb first when off on that day, they assumed that it was done by the same people who bombed the World Trade Center.  It was only after a patrolman pulled McVeigh over and noticed "something" was out of place that the investigation shifted from international terrorism to domestic terrorism. 

All of this information is available online and by a number of credible sources.

 

This is absolutely correct. Whilst PRETENDING to damp-down tension, the Masonic governments of Britain and America are actually heightening it. They want it to look like a religious war, when it is really OIL CRUSADES.

In mid-February 2006, that wonderful Mayor of London (England) Ken Livingstone met up with Muslim leaders in order to promote inter-religious harmony. He stated CLEARLY that the riots in France, and the publication of anti-Muslim caricatures were GOVERNMENT POLICY.

Freemasons have taken over the Wikipedia. I put advice about curing a disease there - it was promptly erased, and a WAR broke out against me. All that I had said was that the skin pigmentation in Addison's disease can be used as a marker - if it goes, then so has the disease.

However, the devil is the God of Freemasonry. "Brothers" force each other to worship the devil, because it frightens them and keeps them docile. Then they spread lies.

So Wikipedia has now re-published the controversial images from Jyllands-Posten, and SEALED the page to "prevent vandalism".

A Wiki is a public-domain area where ANYBODY is entitled to edit the work. The Masonic gang look upon legitimate editing as "vandalism", and provoking violence as "encouraging freedom of speech".

Masons - who worship the devil - are OBLIGED to be FIENDISH.

So Wikipedia has become an unreliable source of information. It does play down the crimes of Masons like Pike or Nixon, but will not allow independent outsiders to express a view.

It has become a vehicle for sly disinformation.

Charles Douglas Wehner



-------------
Charles Douglas Wehner


Posted By: Tim Evans
Date Posted: 16 February 2006 at 5:25am

CDW,

It's not an oil crisis, its a dollar crisis.



-------------
Tim in Britain



Print Page | Close Window