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Egypt

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Politics
Forum Name: World Politics
Forum Discription: World Politics
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25647
Printed Date: 26 November 2014 at 12:23pm


Topic: Egypt
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: Egypt
Date Posted: 03 July 2013 at 2:48pm
I'm surprised that nobody is talking about what is taking place in Egypt?

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever



Replies:
Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 05 July 2013 at 9:08pm
I think the Arab world is cursed. As the verse in the Qur'an states:

God only help people who help themselves.

They all want to be in the lead, everyone of them. The action to do for free is alien to them, all action must be rewarded, either here in this world or later in heaven, they are cursed. The military been out from the leading chair for a year and they get so restless, they all cursed. They were so helpless in the war again the Zionist yet they are so good in shooting people in the street, the urge to kill is just there, they are all cursed.

But let see for couple months and see what happen.



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 05 July 2013 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by nothing

I think the Arab world is cursed. As the verse in the Qur'an states:God only help people who help themselves. .



Where in the Quran is this found?


Posted By: suhail wani
Date Posted: 05 July 2013 at 11:51pm
i want ask you one question ,why egyptian people cheated mohhamad moorsi


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 07 July 2013 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Where in the Quran is this found?

I think it is in Chapter 13, it starts with Innallaha laa yughoyyiru ma qaumin.




Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 08 July 2013 at 6:09am
 
 
 
Salam ,I am sad for recent events of Egypt and hope Allah
 
 
helps to nation of this dear country until live in peace and
 
 
don’t experience bad condition of time of Mobarak ,again .


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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 July 2013 at 10:20am
Originally posted by whitelion553

Salam ,I am sad for recent events of Egypt and hope Allah
 
 
helps to nation of this dear country until live in peace and
 
 
don’t experience bad condition of time of Mobarak ,again .

It is encouraging at least to me, that Morsi was removed without anything like the situation that is taking place in Syria.
And I agree, let us hope that tyranny and oppression may be removed for once and for all.
Let us pray for an improved situation for all in Egypt.



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 08 July 2013 at 11:30pm

http://www.yjc.ir/en/news/1592/sheikholeslam-morsis-mistake-was-he-did-not-listen-to-leader -

http://www.yjc.ir/en/news/1534 -

I hope nation of Egypt don’t waste the clean bloods that their youth gave for their revolution .they must save their revolution and stand until access to a valuable result .



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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 9:50am
I only just read today that the army fired, with deadly fire, upon Morsi supporters that came out in protest.  This was discouraging to learn.  Why must it be so hard for people to stick with peaceful protest.

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by suhail wani

i want ask you one question ,why egyptian people cheated mohhamad moorsi
 
I think you mean, why did the Egyptian army cheat Morsi?  If Morsi was elected in an honest election, with support from the majority of Egyptians, it is hard to believe that they would so soon have turned against him.
 
On the other hand, someone on the radio this morning was saying that the election wasn't honest.  I don't know, but I don't recall anyone raising such issues at the time.
 
Originally posted by Caringheart

I only just read today that the army fired, with deadly fire, upon Morsi supporters that came out in protest.  This was discouraging to learn.  Why must it be so hard for people to stick with peaceful protest.
 
Then again, if the Morsi protests were intended to be so peaceful, then after it became violent where did they get all the guns to return fire?  It's hard to know who is telling the truth, but IMHO there is probably plenty of blame on both sides.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

  it is hard to believe that they would so soon have turned against him.
 

Hi Ron,
Regarding this part of your post....
How else do you explain the 14 million that came out in peaceful protest, calling for the removal of Morsi.
The way I understand is that when they elected Morsi the people voted for democracy, but that is not what they have gotten from their new leader.
I am just so thankful that Morsi did not order the military to fire on those 14 million as a certain other leader has done in his country.
Of course I don't know that a military coupe is the best thing either.  In the U.S. there is a process by which a president has to be removed, called impeachment... where there is a trial and a decision.  I don't understand the politics enough to know why this process could not have taken place in Egypt.  I don't think anyone wants a 'military state' of affairs.



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 5:59pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

How else do you explain the 14 million that came out in peaceful protest, calling for the removal of Morsi.

Simple -- I don't believe it.  That estimate came from the military.  If true, it would represent one sixth of the entire population, including babies and small children.  But of course the military would exaggerate its support.

In the U.S. there is a process by which a president has to be removed, called impeachment... where there is a trial and a decision.  I don't understand the politics enough to know why this process could not have taken place in Egypt.

Exactly.  Even in the worst case, they could have voted Morsi out in the next election.  So far I haven't seens anything to justify removing him by force.

As a matter of fact, I've been searching the news for any concrete accusation against Morsi.  I know he has granted himself extraordinary powers, but what has he actually done with those powers that is so horrible?  The only thing I've read is someone saying -- seriously!  -- that he banned belly dancing.  Ermm  Really?  As much as you might like belly dancing, that issue couldn't have waited till the next election?



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Caringheart

How else do you explain the 14 million that came out in peaceful protest, calling for the removal of Morsi.

Simple -- I don't believe it.  That estimate came from the military.  If true, it would represent one sixth of the entire population, including babies and small children.  But of course the military would exaggerate its support.


Hi Ron,

Did you not see the media coverage?  Did it not look like 14 million people?  I believe they are using the yardstick of comparison of Tiananmen square in China.



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Did you not see the media coverage?  Did it not look like 14 million people?
 
No, it didn't.  Are you sure you even know what 14 million people would look like?  Find me a picture that you think is 14 million people (Google Images pulls up lots of anti-Morsi crowd shots), and we'll talk about it.
 
I believe they are using the yardstick of comparison of Tiananmen square in China.
 
I don't care what "yardstick" the military used.  I would be more surprised if they didn't exaggerate the numbers.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Did you not see the media coverage?  Did it not look like 14 million people?
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

No, it didn't.  Are you sure you even know what 14 million people would look like?


LOL No, I guess I don't. lol  I just know that is what was reported and it sure looked possible to me.
 
Originally posted by Caringheart


I believe they are using the yardstick of comparison of Tiananmen square in China.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I don't care what "yardstick" the military used.  I would be more surprised if they didn't exaggerate the numbers.


It's not the military 'using the yardstick of measure' that I was referring to.  I meant it is the yardstick that the media is using.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 7:48pm
And the media got that estimate from the military.
 
People (myself included) are notoriously bad at estimating large numbers.  However, a bit of simple math can help a lot.  For instance, 16 million people (for round numbers) would be a square of 4000 by 4000 people.  Or if you prefer, a circle of 14 million people would be about 4000 people in diameter (area = pi * r^2, or 14,000,000 = 3.14 * (4000/2)^2).
 
Take any picture you think has 14 million people in it.  Draw an imaginary line across the picture that you think fairly represents a diameter.  That line would have to have 4000 people on it. 
 
But even 4000 people is hard to gauge by sight, so divide that line into ten segments.  Each of those segments must contain 400 people.
 
Or divide one of those segments into ten parts (1/100 of the total length of the line), and try to imagine 40 people in that little bit (now less than a ten of an inch long).  Could you even see 40 separate people in that bit of the photo?  If so, you have better eyes than me, or a better imagination.
 
In fact, we can make this even simpler.  Your computer screen probably has only about a million pixels.  Any picture which purports to show 14 million people would just be a blur on your computer monitor.  You couldn't possibly see individual people. 
 
 


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 July 2013 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

As a matter of fact, I've been searching the news for any concrete accusation against Morsi.  I know he has granted himself extraordinary powers, but what has he actually done with those powers that is so horrible?  The only thing I've read is someone saying -- seriously!  -- that he banned belly dancing.  Ermm  Really?  As much as you might like belly dancing, that issue couldn't have waited till the next election?


Hi Ron,
This was posted on another forum... I'm interested to know your feedback.  Thanks, Caringheart

So Much For Middle East Democracy

By Eric Margolis

July 09, 2013 " http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ - Information Clearing House - The real story behind the military coup in Cairo led by General al-Sissi is much more complex than the western media is reporting. Far from a spontaneous uprising by Egyptians, – aka “a people’s revolution” – what really happened was a putsch orchestrated by Egypt’s “deep government” and outside powers – the latest phase of the counter-revolution against the so-called Arab Spring.

A year ago, Egyptians elected Mohammed Morsi president in their first fair democratic election. Morsi came from the ranks of the Muslim Brotherhood, an eight-decade old conservative movement of professionals dedicated to bringing Islamic principals of public welfare, politics, education, justice, piety and fighting corruption.

But the deck was stacked against Morsi and the Brotherhood from day one.

The brutal US-backed Mubarak had fallen, but the organs of his 30-year dictatorship, Egypt’s pampered 440,000-man military, judiciary, academia, media, police, intelligence services and bureaucrats, remained in place. Even Morsi’s presidential guard remained under control of the Mubarak forces.  The dictatorship’s old guard – better known as the “deep government” – sought to thwart every move of the Brotherhood. In fact, the stolid, plodding Morsi only became president after more capable colleagues were vetoed by the hard-line Mubarakist courts.

Morsi should have purged the “deep government,” notably the police, secret police, judges, and media who were sabotaging the democratic government. But Morsi was too soft, and the entrenched powers arrayed against him too strong. He never managed to grasp the levers of state. Ironically, after all the media hysteria in North America over the alleged dangers of the Muslim Brotherhood, it turned out to be a dud.

The Brotherhood stumbled from one crisis to the next as Egypt’s economy, already in terrible shape before the 2011 revolution, sank like a rock. Tourism, that provided 17% of national income, evaporated. Unemployment soared over 13%, and over 50% among angry urban young. We have recently seen this same phenomena in Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, Pakistan, and Western Europe. Severe shortages of fuel and electricity sparked outrage.

Egypt’s curse is that it cannot feed its surging population of over 90 million. So Cairo imports huge quantities of wheat and subsidizes retail prices for bread. The US sustained the Sadat and Mubarak regimes with boatloads of wheat discounted 50%. This vital aid tapered off when Morsi took power. Food prices in Egypt rose 10%.

Equally important, ever since Anwar Sadat invited in the US to rearm his outdated military, Egypt’s armed forces have become joined at the hip with the Pentagon. Just as Turkey’s 500,000-man armed forces were, until eleven years ago, and Pakistan’s so remain today.

Armies of many Muslim states are designed to control their populations, not defeat foreign enemies. The only Arab military force in recent memory to beat an invader has been the guerilla forces of Lebanon’s Hezbollah.

The US provides Egypt’s military $1.5 billion annually, not counting tens of millions of “black” payments from CIA to leading generals, police chiefs, commentators and bureaucrats.

Egypt’s military has been totally re-equipped with US F-16 fighter-bombers, M-1 heavy tanks, armored vehicles, radars, electronic systems, and artillery.

Washington has supplied Egypt with just enough arms to control its population and intimidate small neighbors, but not enough to wage war against Israel. Further, the Pentagon sharply limits Egypt supplies of munitions, missiles and vital spare parts. Many of Egypt’s generals have been trained in US military colleges, where they formed close links with US intelligence and the Pentagon. CIA, DIA, and NSA have large stations in Egypt that watch its military and population.

Under Mubarak, the US controlled Egypt’s military and key parts of its economy. When Morsi and the Brotherhood came to power, Washington backed off for a while but in recent months apparently decided to back the overthrow of Egypt’s first democratic government.

This fact became perfectly clear when the White House refused to call the military coup in Cairo a coup. Had it done so, US law would have mandated the cutoff of US aid to Egypt.  US politicians and media, with shameless hypocrisy, are hailing the overthrow of Morsi as a democratic achievement. In North America, anything labeled “Muslim” has become ipso facto menacing.

The counter-revolution of Egypt’s “deep government” was financed and aided by the US and Saudi Arabia, cheered on by Israel, the UAE, Britain and France. Tiny Qatar, that backed Morsi with $8 billion, lost its influence in Cairo. The Saudis will now call many shots in Egypt.

In recent weeks, mass street demonstrations in major Egyptian cities against Morsi were organized by the police, secret police and the Mubarakist structure. Fears of the Brotherhood were whipped up among Egypt’s nervous Coptic Christians, 10% of the population, who form much of the urban elite.

Then there were tens of thousands of unemployed, highly volatile young street people, as we recently saw in Istanbul, ready to explode at any excuse. Large numbers of Egyptians were fed up with stumbles of Morsi’s government – even some of his former Salafist allies. – and the threat of economic collapse. Liberals, Nasserites, Marxists joined them.

There may be some armed resistance against the coup, but it will likely be crushed by Egypt’s military and attack-dog security forces. Senior Brotherhood officials are already being arrested, and pro-Brotherhood media gagged, while Washington turns a blind eye.

As of now, the threat of a real civil war such as Algeria suffered in the 1990’s after a US and French-backed military coup seems unlikely, but not impossible. Meanwhile, the military has installed a puppet president for the time being. The old US “asset” Mohammed el-Baradei may take over as civilian frontman for the generals, who prefer civilian sock puppets get blamed for Egypt’s economic and social crises.

So much for democracy in the Mideast. The overthrow of a moderate Islamist government will send a message to the Muslim world that compromise with the Western powers is impossible and only violent resistance can shake the status quo.

Copyright Eric S. Margolis 2013




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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 July 2013 at 4:18pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Hi Ron,
This was posted on another forum... I'm interested to know your feedback.  Thanks, Caringheart

I agree with much of what Margolis wrote, but referring to Egypt's "deep government" is unnecessarily conspiratorial.  Let's face it, this is yet another example of American imperialism, meddling in foreign governments.  IMHO it is shameful how the US can preach about democracy and yet continue to back the Egyptian army in what is obviously a military coup to overthrow a legitimate democratic government.

I remain open to the possibility that the Morsi government did something so anti-democratic that a coup was necessary, but so far I still haven't heard anything that would justify it.  It should surprise no one that an Islamic theocracy would be disastrous to the economy, especially one that depends so heavily on tourism, but bad economic policies alone are no excuse (else half the democracies in the Western world would be collapsing in chaos!).  They could have waited till the next election to boot him out, if that was the will of the majority.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 July 2013 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

 Let's face it, this is yet another example of American imperialism, meddling in foreign governments.


Hi Ron,
Please explain.
How is this, as you put it,  'American imperialism, meddling in foreign governments'?

I don't know if I agree with you or not about the military coup, considering the demonstrations that were taking place in the streets.  I think it is quite possible they were simply seeking to avoid a situation like the one in Syria.
Voice of the people... power of the people?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 July 2013 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

How is this, as you put it,  'American imperialism, meddling in foreign governments'?
 
Wow, where do I begin?  It's no secret that the US uses its economic might to advance its "interests" (how I hate that word!Angry) around the world.  Foreign governments that tow the line get American cash, technology, investments and/or access to American markets; those that don't, get embargos and trade barriers.  
 
If economic pressure doesn't do the trick, don't be surprised if you get a visit from the American military.  As the most obvious example, Iraq was targeted for invasion before 911 even happened; Al Qaeda just gave them the excuse they needed.  But there are plenty of other countries that have been attacked, either in outright war or "police actions" or covert CIA operations or whatever.  There is a good list http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html - here if you're interested.

I don't know if I agree with you or not about the military coup, considering the demonstrations that were taking place in the streets.  I think it is quite possible they were simply seeking to avoid a situation like the one in Syria.
 
Yeah, I think I responded to that a week or so ago, but that conversation was lost.  No doubt the demonstrations were huge, but claims that they involved 14 million people are hard to believe.  The pictures I saw looked more like a few hundred thousand at best.
 
Voice of the people... power of the people?
 
In a democracy, the power of the people is via the ballot box.  Anything else is just mob rule.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 July 2013 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

In a democracy, the power of the people is via the ballot box.  Anything else is just mob rule.


Hi Ron,

What do yo think would happen in the United States if huge numbers of people turned out in Washington D.C., calling for the resignation of the president?

As far as the rest... if you had a business to run...
a business where a great number of people depended on the way you run things for their own sustenance and survival... 
Would you decide who you would and would not do business with?  Who you would import from, and export to, and who you would not, based on what best served the continuation of your business 'interests' and the support of your people?

and yes, I cringe at the way that word, 'interests', is used to.

CLynn



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 6:27am
http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=443584 - http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=443584

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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 4:38pm

Sorry Caringheart, I don't think my answers below will be very satisfying to you because I really don't understand what you're getting at.  But I'll try my best:

Originally posted by Caringheart

What do yo think would happen in the United States if huge numbers of people turned out in Washington D.C., calling for the resignation of the president?

Your question is too hypothetical to answer specifically.  Maybe nothing.  Maybe defeat at the next election.  Maybe impeachment.  Maybe an assassination.

One thing I would not expect would be for the military to get involved, except perhaps at the request of the government to maintain civic order.  The military has no business meddling in politics.

As far as the rest... if you had a business to run...
a business where a great number of people depended on the way you run things for their own sustenance and survival... 
Would you decide who you would and would not do business with?  Who you would import from, and export to, and who you would not, based on what best served the continuation of your business 'interests' and the support of your people?

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I hope you're not suggesting that government should be run like a business.  Government and busines are fundamentally different -- as different as politics is from economics.  Businesses are amoral entities, whose only goal is profit.  They are part of the reason why we need governments to create rules under which businesses operate.

In contrast, government -- good government, anyway -- exists mainly for ethical reasons.  In fact, politics is sometimes defined as a branch of ethics.  Governments make the rules that everyone, including the government itself, must abide by; and they should be ethical rules.

So to attempt to answer your question: if I were the CEO of a major corporation, I would do (almost) anything in my power to increase the profitability of my business, including taking advantage of tax loopholes, cheap offshore labour, lax environmental regulations, etc.; while simultaneously lobbying my government to close those loopholes, restrict access to offshore labour, tighten environmental regulations, etc.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb


Sorry Caringheart, I don't think my answers below will be very satisfying to you because I really don't understand what you're getting at.  But I'll try my best:

Thanks Ron.  I appreciate it.  I find I am usually in agreement with most of the things that you say.
Originally posted by Ron Webb


Originally posted by Caringheart

As far as the rest... if you had a business to run...

a business where a great number of people depended on the way you run things for their own sustenance and survival...
Would you decide who you would and would not do business with?  Who you would import from, and export to, and who you would not, based on what best served the continuation of your business 'interests' and the support of your people?

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I hope you're not suggesting that government should be run like a business.  Government and business are fundamentally different -- as different as politics is from economics.  Businesses are amoral entities, whose only goal is profit.  They are part of the reason why we need governments to create rules under which businesses operate.

In contrast, government -- good government, anyway -- exists mainly for ethical reasons.  In fact, politics is sometimes defined as a branch of ethics.  Governments make the rules that everyone, including the government itself, must abide by; and they should be ethical rules.

So to attempt to answer your question: if I were the CEO of a major corporation, I would do (almost) anything in my power to increase the profitability of my business, including taking advantage of tax loopholes, cheap offshore labour, lax environmental regulations, etc.; while simultaneously lobbying my government to close those loopholes, restrict access to offshore labour, tighten environmental regulations, etc.

This is my point exactly; you would do whatever was necessary to ensure the survival of the business... and yes, it is personal ethics that determine business ethics...
just as ethics of governmental leaders determines the actions of government...
government is a business... the business of governance for the survival of the society...
Which is why people need to elect government officials with good moral ethics.  It is why they need better choices.  It is why the people themselves need to get involved, to step up, and provide those better options from amongst themselves.

Originally posted by Ron Webb


One thing I would not expect would be for the military to get involved, except perhaps at the request of the government to maintain civic order.  The military has no business meddling in politics.

What is better, to have a government that is unwanted by its people, turn its guns, its military on those people in order to retain power...
or for those guns, that military, to remove the person in power that is unwanted by the people, in order to retain peace?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 23 July 2013 at 11:51pm

http://lhvnews.com/en/news/5000/will-muslim-brotherhood-enter-military-phase -

http://lhvnews.com/en/news/5077/will-morsi-return-to-power -



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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 July 2013 at 4:52pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is my point exactly; you would do whatever was necessary to ensure the survival of the business... and yes, it is personal ethics that determine business ethics...
just as ethics of governmental leaders determines the actions of government...

No, I think you missed my point.  I am tempted to say that "business ethics" is an oxymoron, but that's not quite right.  Business ethics is to play by the rules set down by government.  That's all.  It is very different from personal ethics, which is why I contrasted my business responsibility as a corporate CEO to take full advantage of every tax loophole, cheap labour and weak environmental laws with my personal responsibility to fight against all those things in the political arena.

government is a business... the business of governance for the survival of the society...

If government is a business, it's a very peculiar kind of business -- one which makes its own rules, coins its own money and is accountable to the very people it controls.

Which is why people need to elect government officials with good moral ethics.  It is why they need better choices.  It is why the people themselves need to get involved, to step up, and provide those better options from amongst themselves.

Do you seriously think that "good moral ethics" is an important criterion for choosing a CEO?  I mean, aside from a commitment to follow the letter of the law (i.e., good business ethics)?  How long do you think the CEO of a major oil or tobacco company would retain his position if he started telling people that they really ought to quit using his product?

What is better, to have a government that is unwanted by its people, turn its guns, its military on those people in order to retain power...
or for those guns, that military, to remove the person in power that is unwanted by the people, in order to retain peace?

But how do we decide whether a government is unwanted?  That's what elections are for.  If Morsi had lost an election and refused to step down, then I agree that the military could legitimately force him out; but that's not what happened, as you know.

I still don't buy the claim that the majority are opposed to Morsi.  Frankly, if that were true, then the majority would be better advised to let the democratic process play itself out.  If they claim a moral right to take power by force, then their opposition can make the same claim.  And we know where that leads.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 July 2013 at 6:20pm
Hi Ron,

Maybe you and I are from different generations.  Before my generation business men did feel accountable to the people whom they employed.  Much as estate managers(the 'Lords' of england, the good ones) used to consider themselves responsible for supplying employment, and care to the people who worked for them.  Times have changed.  I was friends with an english woman who told me while they were living in India(many years ago, now), because they were seen to have wealth (even though they were not wealthy but only by comparison), it was considered by the local people as an obligation and a duty for them to hire household help to give employment to the local people.  She said she was never comfortable with having household servants, but it was expected and they obliged.
You see I come from a time when people lived by the teaching;
"to whom much is given, much will be required." 
People took their duties, responsibilities, and obligations seriously.

"Do you seriously think that "good moral ethics" is an important criterion for choosing a CEO?"
Yes, I do, and there are some that still do run their businesses according to good moral ethics.
But, as it was so hard to find, it is also the reason I left the business world.
You see, this is what has become the main ailment of our society... greed and self-interest.

"if that were true, then the majority would be better advised to let the democratic process play itself out."
I agree... but hey, look what part of the world we are talking about, and what usually happens there.  What is the best solution to controlling civil unrest?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 26 July 2013 at 3:04am

http://en.humanrights-iran.ir/news-20782.aspx -

http://en.humanrights-iran.ir/news-20791.aspx -

 

The Pentagon and the US Embassy in Cairo have denied reports in the Egyptian media that an American task force in the Red Sea is preparing to "invade Egypt."



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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 July 2013 at 4:46pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Maybe you and I are from different generations.  Before my generation business men did feel accountable to the people whom they employed.  Much as estate managers(the 'Lords' of england, the good ones) used to consider themselves responsible for supplying employment, and care to the people who worked for them.  Times have changed. ...

We may not be as far apart in generational terms as you might suppose.  I think the main difference between us is that I am looking at the world as it is, and you are talking about how it ought to be.  As much as we might want businesses to be ethical creatures, the hard reality is that a successful business must always place profits ahead of people.  It has to, in order to compete with other businesses that will certainly be doing the same.

Did business owners ever feel that much responsibility or empathy for their employees?  The life of a sharecropper or a miner or a sailor or a factory worker was tough, his work was dangerous, his pay was minimal and for the most part the upper echelons frankly didn't care whether he lived or died.  If anything, his circumstances have gradually improved over the decades, but only through government and union pressure, not because the bosses felt any moral imperative about it.

I'm talking about big business, of course -- mega-multi-transnational corporations with thousands or millions of employees.  Small business, where the owner actually gets to know his employees by name, is an entirely different animal.  It is also an endangered species, with the megacorps taking an ever-larger share of the economy.  Maybe that trend is the reason we sometimes have the impression of "the good old days" when employers cared about their employees.

------
I agree that the US is behaving like a business with regard to Egypt -- in other words, without regard to ethics.  Bluntly, the US needs allies in the Middle East in order to promote its "interests" (i.e., access to oil) in the region.  It knows it can't work with Morsi, so it wants him out, and it is spending billions to force him out.  Whether Morsi has a legitimate claim to leadership (which he apparently does, having won a fair election as far as I can see) is irrelevant.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 July 2013 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I'm talking about big business, of course -- mega-multi-transnational corporations with thousands or millions of employees.  Small business, where the owner actually gets to know his employees by name, is an entirely different animal.  It is also an endangered species, with the megacorps taking an ever-larger share of the economy.  Maybe that trend is the reason we sometimes have the impression of "the good old days" when employers cared about their employees.

------
I agree that the US is behaving like a business with regard to Egypt -- in other words, without regard to ethics.  Bluntly, the US needs allies in the Middle East in order to promote its "interests" (i.e., access to oil) in the region.  It knows it can't work with Morsi, so it wants him out, and it is spending billions to force him out.  Whether Morsi has a legitimate claim to leadership (which he apparently does, having won a fair election as far as I can see) is irrelevant.



Hi Ron,
We hit the same page when I started reading your 3rd paragraph... suddenly it was saying all the things that I was going to respond to you. Smile

Yes, I believe it is big business that has ruined what once was the foundation of the United States of America... the small businessman.

As far as Egypt, I guess the point where we still differ is on whether or not large numbers of people were calling for the removal of Morsi and whether civil unrest was once again imminent.  Unless you or I go there... or know someone from there, we really have no way of knowing the truth for certain. Unhappy

Blessings to you,
Caringheart


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 July 2013 at 7:58pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, I believe it is big business that has ruined what once was the foundation of the United States of America... the small businessman.

Unfortunately, small business can't compete with the megacorps in a laissez-faire free market.  That's why we need government regulations.

As far as Egypt, I guess the point where we still differ is on whether or not large numbers of people were calling for the removal of Morsi and whether civil unrest was once again imminent.  Unless you or I go there... or know someone from there, we really have no way of knowing the truth for certain.

Going there won't help.  You can't talk to 90 million people yourself.  Fortunately, democracy has a built-in mechanism for assessing whether large numbers of people are dissatisfied with the government.  It's called an election.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 July 2013 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Going there won't help.  You can't talk to 90 million people yourself.  Fortunately, democracy has a built-in mechanism for assessing whether large numbers of people are dissatisfied with the government.  It's called an election.


Well currently about half the population in the United States disapproves of their current president.  What if that number increased to 90% and people turned out in the streets saying that they wanted him removed?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 July 2013 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Well currently about half the population in the United States disapproves of their current president.  What if that number increased to 90% and people turned out in the streets saying that they wanted him removed?
 
Then unless there are grounds for impeachment, according to the US Constitution, he would be gone.  In 2016.
 
You do uphold the Constitution, don't you?

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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 July 2013 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Caringheart

Well currently about half the population in the United States disapproves of their current president.  What if that number increased to 90% and people turned out in the streets saying that they wanted him removed?
 
Then unless there are grounds for impeachment, according to the US Constitution, he would be gone.  In 2016.
 
You do uphold the Constitution, don't you?

I just wonder...
Do you think that's how it would go...
if the country was dissolving into chaos and violence?

I mean, up until now the United States has remained civilized...
the whole united we stand, divided we fall thing...
allowing due process to take its course...
but what if the country became terribly divided?

How do you think the civil war happened?

Do you really think the country could not become so divided as to erupt in violence as other countries have done?
There has been much violence in the past of the United States too...
there is nothing to say that could not come around again.
In fact I tend to see it as not far off if the people there are not careful, and become unable to act intelligently.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 27 July 2013 at 3:48pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I just wonder...
Do you think that's how it would go...
if the country was dissolving into chaos and violence?

Well, I guess we've switched roles now, with you talking about the world as it is (or might be), while I talk about how it ought to be. Smile

Honestly, I don't see the US devolving into chaos anytime soon.  If it does, it will not be because a majority are opposed to the incumbent government.  If they had a clear majority, they could be confident of defeating the government in the next election and would be far better off just waiting a couple of years.

No, in a mature democracy such as the US, it would only be a radical minority that would attempt to seize power by force, because they know it would be their only option.

IMHO that in itself suggests to me that the Morsi opposition does not represent a majority of Egyptians.  If they did, then why did they elect Morsi in the first place?  And why not just vote him out at the next election?

How do you think the civil war happened?

The American civil war is not analogous to the Egyptian situation.  The Confederate states were trying to secede from the Union, not to take control of it.  Apparently they had no democratic option to accomplish that.  (Which seems like a flaw in the Constitution, by the way, but that's another topic.)



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 July 2013 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Well, I guess we've switched roles now, with you talking about the world as it is (or might be), while I talk about how it ought to be. Smile

LOL

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Honestly, I don't see the US devolving into chaos anytime soon.  If it does, it will not be because a majority are opposed to the incumbent government.  If they had a clear majority, they could be confident of defeating the government in the next election and would be far better off just waiting a couple of years.

No, in a mature democracy such as the US, it would only be a radical minority that would attempt to seize power by force, because they know it would be their only option.

IMHO that in itself suggests to me that the Morsi opposition does not represent a majority of Egyptians.  If they did, then why did they elect Morsi in the first place?  And why not just vote him out at the next election?



Ok, so here's how I see this... considering we are talking about the middle east and how things have gone in the past...
and not that it couldn't happen this way even in the United States, or any country for that matter...

Let's say that you elected what you thought was a democratic leader and then you find that leader turning into a dictator, a tyrant... not what you thought you were electing... think Hitler...
(for that matter I see Obama in the U.S. skating near to this himself with the way he has conducted things while he is in office)

Would you want to take the chance that in a few years there would even be another election?

People who want to gain total control, given a position of authority, can manage to gain that total control if people are not watching carefully, if they are not paying attention.

Can you see what I mean?


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 6:29am
I am encouraging people to write to their governments to demand an end to all military aid to Egypt, while protesters are being massacred by the army.

A sample letter as well as contact information can be found here:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25745

Please consider advocating for an end to the bloodshed and mass murder that is taking place.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Would you want to take the chance that in a few years there would even be another election?
Well, that's a good question, and one I've been trying to answer for weeks now.  Is there any evidence that Morsi was considering cancelling elections?

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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Caringheart

Would you want to take the chance that in a few years there would even be another election?
Well, that's a good question, and one I've been trying to answer for weeks now.  Is there any evidence that Morsi was considering cancelling elections?

Hi Ron,
I don't know, I haven't been following that closely, but I believe he was displaying those dictatorial qualities that the Egyptians were trying to rid themselves of when they elected him.  That would cause fear to rise in me, so surely it does in them.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 7:26pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't know, I haven't been following that closely, but I believe he was displaying those dictatorial qualities that the Egyptians were trying to rid themselves of when they elected him.

Actually, Mubarak (his predecessor) was a relative moderate, opposed to Islamic fundamentalism and seen by many as "soft" on Israel.  He was also too cozy with the US for many hard-liners.

That would cause fear to rise in me, so surely it does in them.

Be careful of projecting your own attitudes on the people of a very different culture.  You don't think it possible that a majority of Egyptian Muslims might actually want an Islamic dictatorship?



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Be careful of projecting your own attitudes on the people of a very different culture.  You don't think it possible that a majority of Egyptian Muslims might actually want an Islamic dictatorship?

Hi Ron,
From what I know of Egypt and its people, they are more progressive than that.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

From what I know of Egypt and its people, they are more progressive than that.
And yet an awful lot of them voted for a prominent member of the Muslim Brotherhood to be their President.  Could it be that the Egyptians you know about are mainly the more progressive ones, by definition? -- i.e., more fluent in English, more urbane, more tech-savvy and media-savvy?


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 4:34am

Egypt, the second largest recipient of U.S. aid after Israel, has received from the United States more than 70 billion dollars in military and economic aid since 1948.

Iran's Foreign Ministry Spokesman Abbas Araqchi says national dialogue is the only solution to the recent crisis in Egypt, urging all sides of the conflict to exercise restraint

"The continuation of tension and conflict in Egypt has caused deep concern in all countries particularly regional states, and we are worried about the consequences of the violence and bloodshed inside Egypt and its outcome for the region,"

respect for human rights, democratic principles and the legitimate demands of the people, as well as finding a solution based on national consensus and unity among the different groups in Egypt in order to maintain solidarity in the country.

http://en.humanrights-iran.ir/news-20769.aspx - - http://en.humanrights-iran.ir/news-20769.aspx

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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 9:07am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Caringheart

From what I know of Egypt and its people, they are more progressive than that.
And yet an awful lot of them voted for a prominent member of the Muslim Brotherhood to be their President.  Could it be that the Egyptians you know about are mainly the more progressive ones, by definition? -- i.e., more fluent in English, more urbane, more tech-savvy and media-savvy?

Hi Ron,
Well, I am back to where we started...
I say that the fear is, that if Morsi stays in power there will not be future elections with the chance for changes.  A justified fear I would say.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 9:17am
Originally posted by whitelion553


Iran's Foreign Ministry Spokesman Abbas Araqchi says national dialogue is the only solution to the recent crisis in Egypt, urging all sides of the conflict to exercise restraint

"The continuation of tension and conflict in Egypt has caused deep concern in all countries particularly regional states, and we are worried about the consequences of the violence and bloodshed inside Egypt and its outcome for the region,"

respect for human rights, democratic principles and the legitimate demands of the people, as well as finding a solution based on national consensus and unity among the different groups in Egypt in order to maintain solidarity in the country.

http://en.humanrights-iran.ir/news-20769.aspx - - http://en.humanrights-iran.ir/news-20769.aspx

Greetings whitelion,

I was just pondering this morning what might be the solution to this problem.  There seem to be a rather equal number of Morsi supporters and Morsi dissenters.  I think the dissenters have more to fear than the supporters do.
I was pondering what can be done when a country is equally divided, and the people have the freedom to come out in numbers like this to demonstrate.  How do you keep a country from devolving into violence, civil unrest and chaos.  I wish I knew.  Somehow the dissenters need some reassurance that they may trust Morsi if he is to remain in power.  Morsi needs to listen to their wants... Just as Assad should have listened to the wants of the people in Syria instead of opening armed fire on them.  These people need to learn how to negotiate for peace.

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

I say that the fear is, that if Morsi stays in power there will not be future elections with the chance for changes.  A justified fear I would say.
How is it justified?  You could always say that about any leader, but where is your evidence?  What did Morsi actually say or do that suggests he was planning to cancel future elections?
 
And on the other side, we have the military, which has demonstrated that it doesn't respect election results in the first place.  If you concede to them the right to overturn any election it doesn't like, then you already have a dictatorship.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 4:33pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I was pondering what can be done when a country is equally divided, and the people have the freedom to come out in numbers like this to demonstrate.  How do you keep a country from devolving into violence, civil unrest and chaos.  I wish I knew.

You may recall a recent election in the US that was essentially too close to call.  Eventually the Supreme Court weighed in and made what many regard as a wrong or arbitrary decision.  But - surprise, surprise! - there was no violence, civil unrest, or chaos!  Why?  Because Americans have a deep respect for democracy and would rather endure four years of bad leadership.

Which is exactly what Morsi's opponents should have done.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 August 2013 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Caringheart

I was pondering what can be done when a country is equally divided, and the people have the freedom to come out in numbers like this to demonstrate.  How do you keep a country from devolving into violence, civil unrest and chaos.  I wish I knew.

You may recall a recent election in the US that was essentially too close to call.  Eventually the Supreme Court weighed in and made what many regard as a wrong or arbitrary decision.  But - surprise, surprise! - there was no violence, civil unrest, or chaos!  Why?  Because Americans have a deep respect for democracy and would rather endure four years of bad leadership.

Which is exactly what Morsi's opponents should have done.


Hi Ron,
A friend shared this comment on a personal blog of mine this morning.  It brought me back to this thread.

"I think the Declaration of Independence says that when a nation becomes corrupt and oppressive or something like that, the people have the right to rise up and overthrow it--that is what we did to England. It seems voting really does not work anymore. ..."



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 10:26am

Salam

Eid Mobarak Smile

Dear caring heart ,most of Syrian nation love Assad .president Assad only wants to vanish the terrorists  for safety of his nation . we pray for success of army of Syria .they jihad in way of Islam .

http://en.alalam.ir/news/1501736 -

Soldiers of Syria are our dear young children that defend from their sacred land . Syria is good example of unity among Shiite , Sunnite and Christianity .all of them give their blood in way of their land .

http://en.alalam.ir/news/1501735 - - http://en.alalam.ir/news/1501735

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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 11:55am
Originally posted by whitelion553

Salam

Syria is good example of unity among Shiite , Sunnite and Christianity .all of them give their blood in way of their land . http://en.alalam.ir/news/1501735 - Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 10:28pm

 

Greetings caring heart ,

OK ,I don’t put my comments about Syria in Egypt post .

I saw interviews  with soldiers and nation of Syria ,too. They believe to resistance and believe that they will vanish all of terrorists .they defend from their land with their life .they lost their homes and children in way of jihad for their country . soldiers of this country are from all religions .i saw Christians that defend near their Muslims friends and give their holy body for safety of their nation. Shia and Sunni  Muslims live near each other in Syria  from first well .but enemies of Muslims cant see this brotherhood in Muslims countries like Iraq and Syria . other countries employ terrorists until kill Muslims with their dirty money .



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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 5:38pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

A friend shared this comment on a personal blog of mine this morning.  It brought me back to this thread.

"I think the Declaration of Independence says that when a nation becomes corrupt and oppressive or something like that, the people have the right to rise up and overthrow it--that is what we did to England. It seems voting really does not work anymore. ..."

I think the statement you are referring to is this:

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Where is this "long train of abuses and usurpations"?  Morsi was in power barely a year.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 August 2013 at 2:40pm
Egypt - religion gone wrong
Religion must be kept out of government.
So sad to see Egypt deteriorating into civil war after all the seemingly positive moves of the recent past.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 August 2013 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Religion must be kept out of government.
 
Unless the majority want religion in their government.
 
So sad to see Egypt deteriorating into civil war after all the seemingly positive moves of the recent past.
 
We can agree on that.  I too assumed that Egyptians got rid of Mubarak because they wanted freedom.  Turns out they only wanted to choose their dictator.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 August 2013 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Caringheart

Religion must be kept out of government.
 
Unless the majority want religion in their government.
 
So sad to see Egypt deteriorating into civil war after all the seemingly positive moves of the recent past.
 
We can agree on that.  I too assumed that Egyptians got rid of Mubarak because they wanted freedom.  Turns out they only wanted to choose their dictator.

Hi Ron,
"Unless the majority want religion in their government."
We see that, this simply can not work.  We've seen it time and again throughout history until people got smart.  Religion is too much a matter of personal belief, and there is just too much diversity of belief and will always lead to conflict when one tries to impose its beliefs on all others. This will always only lead to disagreements and discontent.

CH



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 15 August 2013 at 1:17am

Religion and politic must be near each other until we can live well .religion is spirit of a politic .without religion politic is vain .

reason of bad condition in Egypt is ignoring religion .
http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/4512659/مصر-کفن-پوش-شد-تصاویر - http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/4512659/مصر-کفن-پوش-شد-تصاویر

http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/4510959/دور-جديد-سرکوب-ها-در-مصر-تصاوير - - - -

http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/4511390/تصاویر-تکان-دهنده-از-قاهره - - - -

http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/4511874/لحظه-به-لحظه-با-مصر-وزارت-بهداشت-مصر-شمار-کشته-های-دیروز-را-343-نفر-اعلام-کرد-تصاوير - - - -


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 27 March 2014 at 4:05am
When ur brothers and sisters r in danger .please , don’t waste time and help them .unfortunatly ,these days .we saw muslims prefer to do their personal life instead of helping to their brothers and sisters .they prefer to be far from politic and only think to ordinary events like their salary and changing design of their home .i was thinking in our religion politic is very special aspect of Islam .we only pray and don’t have action .we only watch murders and has forgotten mean of Jihad .we watch hateful crimes against our dears in Myanmar and r silent .we hear unfair vote of Egypt about its nation and don’t say any thing .i can't imagine killing of more than 500 muslim in a country that has millions muslims .if every person only have 10 members in his family this means thousands people .This population wants to be silent and watch death of their dears ?They want to wait until this tragedy happen ?why they don’t want to speak with their government .i believe if nation want to do an impossible work ,it certainly happens

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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 March 2014 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by whitelion553

.i can't imagine killing of more than 500 muslim i

Greetings whitelion,

Forgive me but I want to ask because this is a thing I see all too often... your phrasing of 'can't imagine killing of muslim'...
Why not 'people'?  Would it be ok if the people they were killing were not muslim?  Is this just a language difference between us and how we say things? 
I can not imagine the rush to judgement to have 500 people executed as Egypt has just decreed.  There was no fair trial and this to me is barbaric action.  One  that I would not expect from what was once an advanced civilization.
asalaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 29 March 2014 at 10:00pm
Salam ,Caring heart .u r right ,thanks for reminding .I must edit my sentence violence against all is wrong . no difference among humans .I am not Arab ,too. And understood ur mind . there is not any difference among humans .all of us r creatures of 1 creator .color of our skin or our language or other features can't change this reality .it is our duty to defend from all people that need to our help .we can't say that we don’t save life of a person for his religion because it is really against humanity .most of other religions such as Christians help us in very bad conditions like flood , earthquake and … we have this duty in front of them ,too. Unfortunately nowadays only clothes of some people r belong to 21th century but their actions and behaviors r same of stone age. Allah hafiz.

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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 March 2014 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by whitelion553

Salam ,Caring heart .u r right ,thanks for reminding .I must edit my sentence violence against all is wrong . no difference among humans .I am not Arab ,too. And understood ur mind . there is not any difference among humans .all of us r creatures of 1 creator .color of our skin or our language or other features can't change this reality .it is our duty to defend from all people that need to our help .we can't say that we don’t save life of a person for his religion because it is really against humanity .most of other religions such as Christians help us in very bad conditions like flood , earthquake and … we have this duty in front of them ,too. Unfortunately nowadays only clothes of some people r belong to 21th century but their actions and behaviors r same of stone age. Allah hafiz.

Greetings whitelion,

Thank you for your reply.  I am very pleased to hear this reply from you, and I hope that all people are able to think this way.

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: whitelion553
Date Posted: 01 April 2014 at 9:56pm
Thanks

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i try to say only facts


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 8:44am
Thoughts:

Has anyone else, like myself, pondered about the Egyptians?
Here is a land, sitting in the middle of Africa,
but here is a people very unlike all other Africans,
they are a people distinct unto themselves, are they not?
Egyptians don't fall into the African category, the Arab category, the Asian category, the caucasian category, the Hebrew category....
Am I wrong?

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 9:24am
Caringheart wrote: Egyptians don't fall into the African category, the Arab category, the Asian category, the caucasian category, the Hebrew category.... Am I wrong?

When I read your above comment, my immediate thought was "of course Caringheart is wrong". As it turns out, it is my understanding of Egyptian demographics which is totally wrong.

I have always assumed that the "original" Egyptians are (primarily) the people we currently call Coptics, and the Muslims in Egypt are (primarily) Arab immigrants who moved into Egypt from the Arab Peninsula in the decades after Mohammad died.

From research I did today, I discovered:

1) "Egyptian" is considered to be both an ethnicity and a nationality
2) Egyptian Coptics and Muslims are essentially identical genetically, and
3) there doesn't appear to have been any significant mixing of Arab or other ethnic groups into the Egyptian people.

To me, the fact all Egyptians belong to the same, unique ethnic group makes the hatred between Egyptian Christians and Egyptian Muslims even harder to understand.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 9:43am
Originally posted by Reepicheep


To me, the fact all Egyptians belong to the same, unique ethnic group makes the hatred between Egyptian Christians and Egyptian Muslims even harder to understand.

Thumbs%20Up  precisely  Smile

I can't understand how this people came to be, right in the middle of Africa.


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 10:18am
I found this shocking to read;

"In Egypt, the largest Arab country, 91 percent of women and girls are subjected to female genital mutilation, according to UNICEF. "

As I had always considered the Egyptian society and culture to be civilized and advanced.
What has happened to Egypt?

What has happened to the whole arab world that they have produced little of value in the world for the whole of the 20th century?

... no technology, medicine or anything else in the world of science

... almost no contributions to world literature, art or to intellectual development. (?)

"According to the United Nations Arab Human Development Reports (2003-2005), written by Arab intellectuals...

Greece, with a population of 11 million, annually translates five times more books from English than the entire Arab world, population 370 million.

Nor is this a new development. The total number of books translated into Arabic during the last 1,000 years is less than Spain translates into Spanish in one year.

ArabianBusiness.com reports that about 100 million people in the Arab world are illiterate; and three quarters of them are between the ages of 15 and 45."

So the question I was reading...

What has the arab world produced?

and why has it not used its oil revenues to produce better education, pursue medicine, and build infrastructure?



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever



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