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universe!!!

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Science & Technology
Forum Discription: It is devoted for Science & Technology
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25646
Printed Date: 21 October 2014 at 11:36am


Topic: universe!!!
Posted By: NABA
Subject: universe!!!
Date Posted: 03 July 2013 at 9:31am
Assalamalecum WA rehmatullahi WA barakhatahu.edwin Hubble a famous scientist said that universe is ever expanding but Allah 1400 years ago mentioned this fact in Surah Adh Dhaariyat ch 51 v 47.



Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 July 2013 at 8:11pm

You are easily impressed, NABA.  First, the universe has to be either expanding, or staying the same, or shrinking; so the Quran had a 1-in-3 chance of getting it right by dumb luck.  We have an expression: "Even a broken clock gives the correct time twice a day."

Second, only one (Ali) of the three translations provided by Islamicity (M Asad, Yusuf Ali, and Picktall) says that the universe is expanding; so it isn't even clear that the Quran makes that claim.

Third, the very next surah describes the Earth as being "spread out", implying that the earth is flat.  So the Quran got some things right, and some things wrong.

But most of all, even if the Quran got lots of things right, why is that evidence that it comes from God?  Could it not equally come from Satan?  Isn't this just what Satan would do to lead us astray -- mix in just enough truth with his lies to make the whole thing seem plausible?



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 05 July 2013 at 9:48am
it depends on about taking meaning,U say spread out means flat,I interpret as spread out means flat grounds,flat roads,ocean,because Allah says he had made oceans compatible for ur ships to sail(ch 31 v 31),moreover Allah says in ch 79 v 30,they had made earth as egg shaped which is geospherical which is right.satan is a jinn and he doesn't need book to astray people,those who stick to Qur'an R difficult preys for him,otherwise All will obey him,that's y life is the test,in judgement day Allah will c who had obeyed Satan and who obeyed Allah,one thing for sure the last destination for Satan and his followers is hell.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 July 2013 at 4:19pm

Originally posted by NABA

it depends on about taking meaning,U say spread out means flat,I interpret as spread out means flat grounds,flat roads,ocean,because Allah says he had made oceans compatible for ur ships to sail(ch 31 v 31),...

But the earth is not flat, and neither are the oceans.  That is the whole point.

...moreover Allah says in ch 79 v 30,they had made earth as egg shaped which is geospherical which is right.

I'm sorry, but that is not what the verse says.  Look it up.  The M Asad translation says "And after that, the earth: wide has He spread its expanse", and all mainstream translations are similar.  This "egg-shaped" notion is a modern distortion.

satan is a jinn and he doesn't need book to astray people,...

Satan doesn't need a book, but God does?

...those who stick to Qur'an R difficult preys for him,otherwise All will obey him,that's y life is the test,in judgement day Allah will c who had obeyed Satan and who obeyed Allah,one thing for sure the last destination for Satan and his followers is hell.

Perhaps life is a test, and perhaps that is why God allowed Satan to send his book, to see who would be led astray by it and who would instead choose to follow their consciences.

I don't know for sure where the Quran came from, whether from God of Satan or Muhammad or anywhere else; but if I had a Creator, then the one thing I know for sure came from God is my own conscience.  Therefore anything that conflicts with my conscience cannot be from God.  That is the ultimate test.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 05 July 2013 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by NABA

it depends on about taking meaning,U say spread out means flat,

NABA, stick with the topic you started.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 July 2013 at 10:10pm
I'd say "universe" is about as broad a topic as I can imagine.Wink
 
Seriously, NABA's purpose is obviously to impress us with the depth and accuracy of scientific knowledge in the Quran.  I think it is reasonable to investigate that claim using other examples.


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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 05 July 2013 at 11:57pm

In several chapters of Qur'an it is mentioned that how Satan become evil,he is a jinn,Satan said he was created by fire and man is from earth,he didn't bow in front of him,Allah punished Satan,but Satan said that he will try to astray people from right path,Allah said that he will give time to Satan to astray people till judgement day,Allah said those who have strong belief will never come in trap of Satan,Allah said that the final destination of Satan and his followers will b hell,on judgement day even Satan will say that U should have obeyed Allah because his promise is TRUE,ur logic that Satan send book to astray people is funny,because good things are being taught not acquired,that's y Allah had send book to guide people,for eg in other places we were talking about fornication,suppose a beautiful unmarried girl agrees to have sex with a man,but if man obeys Allah he will say no,but if man is way away from Allah he will say yes,another example we Muslims offer compulsory congregation salaah on Friday,a TRUE believer will never miss that,but man away from Allah will watch movie in cinema at that time,u also know that people don't need teachers to learn bad habits,my meaning of spread out is not flat any thing to b laid needs to spread out,that's y ocean is spread out,land is spread out,Allah in ch 39 v 41-Truth is in front of u either except it and become successful or fall astray,in simple meaning Qur'an is in front of u accept it or reject it.



Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 06 July 2013 at 2:45pm

Originally posted by NABA

In several chapters of Qur'an it is mentioned that how Satan become evil,he is a jinn,Satan said he was created by fire and man is from earth,he didn't bow in front of him,Allah punished Satan,but Satan said that he will try to astray people from right path,Allah said that he will give time to Satan to astray people till judgement day,Allah said those who have strong belief will never come in trap of Satan,Allah said that the final destination of Satan and his followers will b hell,on judgement day even Satan will say that U should have obeyed Allah because his promise is TRUE,

Why would Allah give Satan any time at all?  Is that how you would treat your children?  Would you step back and let evil people lie to them and corrupt them and condemn them to eternal hell?  Is that what a loving God would do?

ur logic that Satan send book to astray people is funny,because good things are being taught not acquired,that's y Allah had send book to guide people,for eg in other places we were talking about fornication,suppose a beautiful unmarried girl agrees to have sex with a man,but if man obeys Allah he will say no,but if man is way away from Allah he will say yes,

Why is it better for him to say no than to say yes?

another example we Muslims offer compulsory congregation salaah on Friday,a TRUE believer will never miss that,but man away from Allah will watch movie in cinema at that time,

Again, if he would rather go to the cinema, why shouldn't he?  It seems like your religion prohibits anything that gives people pleasure.  Are you SURE it is from Allah and not Satan?

u also know that people don't need teachers to learn bad habits,my meaning of spread out is not flat any thing to b laid needs to spread out,that's y ocean is spread out,land is spread out,Allah in ch 39 v 41-Truth is in front of u either except it and become successful or fall astray,in simple meaning Qur'an is in front of u accept it or reject it.

We can only see a tiny bit of it at a time, so to us it may appear to be spread out (flat); but God could see the whole earth at once and would know that it is a sphere.  Of all possible shapes, a sphere has the least surface area for its size, i.e. is the least spread out.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 07 July 2013 at 8:19am


Allah in surah mulk ch 67 v 2-Allah had created life and death to test us who is good in deeds,Those who obey Allah will enter paradise,those who follow Satan will enter hell,our religion propogates the best way of life,I enjoy life such as cricket,cars avoiding haraam things,but I never miss my prayer,i still stick to it that spread out means flat grounds etc,U did not respond to my view about bad habits, I want to say that does an individual requires a book to steal, to rape, to do any wrong thing.u say that this book is from satan.I quote u a verse of Surah Al Fussilat ch 41 v 34-no doubt bad deed cannot b equal to good deed, but behave with politeness to ur enemy and u will see that he had become ur best friend.so do u think satan can give this message????? Therefore quran is the last revelation from Allah, I know u will cross question by saying that if enemy wants to kill u u will b polite, in that case will fight because Allah says don't let ur own hands to b the cause of ur own destruction (ch 2 v 195) I will stop my enemy to kill me.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 07 July 2013 at 5:36pm

Originally posted by NABA

U did not respond to my view about bad habits,

No offense intended, but it's easy to miss a question when you don't use paragraphs or punctuation or even capitalization.  I'm not sure what response you're looking for.

I want to say that does an individual requires a book to steal, to rape, to do any wrong thing.

No.  Does an individual require a book to give to charity, to treat women with respect, to do the right thing?  I hope not.  Again, what's your point?

u say that this book is from satan.

No, I certainly didn't.  I don't even believe in Satan.  But you do, so I asked you how you know it's not from Satan.

I quote u a verse of Surah Al Fussilat ch 41 v 34-no doubt bad deed cannot b equal to good deed, but behave with politeness to ur enemy and u will see that he had become ur best friend.so do u think satan can give this message?????

Of course he can.  Why not?  As I said, it's what I would expect him to do: mix in just enough truth with his lies to make the whole thing seem plausible.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 07 July 2013 at 11:24pm

My point was to say that people acquire bad habits,they don't learn,in islam from the childhood Qur'an is taught to the individuals but if they learn with translation in sha Allah they will learn better and will be able to implement,because once the children enter teens it is difficult to modify their personality,and u r not alien to the fact today in this era teenagers do those sins that we don't even think about it,so my meaning was to say that the root of becoming better human being lies within the childhood ,Satan will try to deviate believers from the path and that's Allah want to c whether we obey him or disobey him,i will not respond to ur belief in Satan because i already respond to ur belief in Allah in other place,in Qur'an everything is TRUE,so there is no question of lies in it!!!!



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by NABA

Assalamalecum WA rehmatullahi WA barakhatahu.edwin Hubble a famous scientist said that universe is ever expanding but Allah 1400 years ago mentioned this fact in Surah Adh Dhaariyat ch 51 v 47.

Assalamu Alaikum.

That is very impressive, NABA. Thank you for sharing!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by NABA

Assalamalecum WA rehmatullahi WA barakhatahu.edwin Hubble a famous scientist said that universe is ever expanding but Allah 1400 years ago mentioned this fact in Surah Adh Dhaariyat ch 51 v 47.

Assalamu Alaikum.

That is very impressive, NABA. Thank you for sharing!


I don't see how surah 51:47 in any way says anything about the expanding universe... ???



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by NABA

it depends on about taking meaning,U say spread out means flat,I interpret as spread out means flat grounds,flat roads,ocean,because Allah says he had made oceans compatible for ur ships to sail(ch 31 v 31),

moreover Allah says in ch 79 v 30,they had made earth as egg shaped which is geospherical which is right.

satan is a jinn and he doesn't need book to astray people,those who stick to Qur'an R difficult preys for him,otherwise All will obey him,that's y life is the test,in judgement day Allah will c who had obeyed Satan and who obeyed Allah,one thing for sure the last destination for Satan and his followers is hell.


Greetings NABA,

How in your mind do you explain these contradictions to yourself, that you believe come from God Himself, that are in the qur'an?  You have your god saying two different things to you in this his perfect book.

Personally, I don't interpret 'spread out' as meaning flat... just expansive(expansive, not expanding)... just large beyond measure, which it would have been in Muhammad's time.

and of course satan could use a book to lead people astray, especially when people are taught to live by that book... that there is no guidance other than that book, and to not use their own minds to discern the truth of things.  It only takes just enough of the Truth to lead people astray.  Give them a little to make it just believable enough that they follow it to their own destruction. Unhappy

Salaam and good will to you,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by NABA

Assalamalecum WA rehmatullahi WA barakhatahu.edwin Hubble a famous scientist said that universe is ever expanding but Allah 1400 years ago mentioned this fact in Surah Adh Dhaariyat ch 51 v 47.

Assalamu Alaikum.

That is very impressive, NABA. Thank you for sharing!


I don't see how surah 51:47 in any way says anything about the expanding universe... ???


Hi Caringheart,

If you go to "Corpus Quran" and look up 5:47, you will see that the author of the Quran states he expanded and is expanding the heavens and the earth.
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=51&verse=47

If we take "heavens" to mean universe, and this in my opinion wouldn't be an unfair description, one could say that according to the Quran, it is expanding.

There are some amazing scientific truths in the Quran that a human being would not be aware of, without supernatural help. There are also some obvious scientific and historical errors, which God would not make. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

Peace in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 3:27pm
Interesting.

And the heaven        We constructed it       
with strength,    and indeed, We   
(are) surely (its) Expanders.   
And the earth,       
We have spread it;   
how excellent       
(are) the Spreaders!

I take two things from this.

'We are surely its expanders'...
is subject to many ways of interpretation.  To me it simply means that God created the vastness of the universe.  It says nothing about the continuing expansion of the universe which we now know of.  I think it is too easy to 'read into' all scriptures. Disapprove

'how excellent are the Spreaders'
I find it very interesting that the Creator is referred to as 'the Spreaders'... plural.  Again 'spread it' simply means to me... created it in its vast expanse.


There is also a surah called 'the table spread'... what did spread mean in this context?  Would it be any different than the earth spread?  Doesn't it just mean, is laid out before you?


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Interesting.

And the heaven        We constructed it       
with strength,    and indeed, We   
(are) surely (its) Expanders.   
And the earth,       
We have spread it;   
how excellent       
(are) the Spreaders!

I take two things from this.

'We are surely its expanders'...
is subject to many ways of interpretation.  To me it simply means that God created the vastness of the universe.  It says nothing about the continuing expansion of the universe which we now know of.  I think it is too easy to 'read into' all scriptures. Disapprove

'how excellent are the Spreaders'
I find it very interesting that the Creator is referred to as 'the Spreaders'... plural.  Again 'spread it' simply means to me... created it in its vast expanse.


There is also a surah called 'the table spread'... what did spread mean in this context?  Would it be any different than the earth spread?  Doesn't it just mean, is laid out before you?

Regarding expanding and spreading, if you read tafsir Ibn Abbas, you will see that it is referring to the present tense.

(We have built) created (the heaven with might, and We it is who make the vast extent (thereof)) as We will; it is also said that this means: we expand the provision thereof.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=51&tAyahNo=47&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Regarding the plural term for God, I don't think the Quran teaches that He is a Trinity, like the Bible does. Of course we know that He is, and with the historical and scientific errors it contains, that is another piece of evidence that though the Quran has a lot of wisdom and good in it, it is not from God.

Speaking of truths that could only come to a human from a supernatural source, consider Job 26:7

He stretches out the north over a void
And hangs the earth on nothing



There is no way a human being living thousands of years ago would have known this. Praise God!


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by NABA

Assalamalecum WA rehmatullahi WA barakhatahu.edwin Hubble a famous scientist said that universe is ever expanding but Allah 1400 years ago mentioned this fact in Surah Adh Dhaariyat ch 51 v 47.

Assalamu Alaikum.

That is very impressive, NABA. Thank you for sharing!


I don't see how surah 51:47 in any way says anything about the expanding universe... ???

There are lots of Verses in the Qur'an, and there are variety of subjects in it. Edwin Hubble was the first person to experience first hand the lost of the returning light.

He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw? (67:3)

Again turn thy vision a second time: (thy) vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited, in a state worn out. (67:4)





Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 1:26am
Originally posted by nothing


Again turn thy vision a second time: (thy) vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited, in a state worn out. (67:4)


Greetings nothing,

I am lost on what it is you are wanting to say here.
What does this verse mean to you?

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 7:55am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nothing


Again turn thy vision a second time: (thy) vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited, in a state worn out. (67:4)


Greetings nothing,

I am lost on what it is you are wanting to say here.
What does this verse mean to you?

Salaam,
Caringheart

When you watch a car moving away from you at night you see the rear light slowly disappearing, until it fully disappeared, yes?. But when you are watching the heaven to see if if it is moving away or not naturally we don't stand in the back yard staring at the stars, no? The sight of heaven we see today is still the same look as when Adam and Eve were still running around naked. We can stand in the back yard till die and the view does not change.

Taking photos at the sky is different. One photo tonight and another photo next week. With this method Edwin Hubble noticed that the second photo always had lesser light (
dull, discomfited, worn out) than the previous one. The conclusion was that the heavenly bodies that look sit still since Adam era is actually moving away from us - the Universe is expanding, just like rear light of the moving away car.

So if the astronomers yelled to us that the light is getting brighter, well time for us to dig a bunker.Smile

Alright, take a deep breath, relax, it is not the thing to stress you out, and live in peace.



Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 7:55pm

Originally posted by nothing

Taking photos at the sky is different. One photo tonight and another photo next week. With this method Edwin Hubble noticed that the second photo always had lesser light (dull, discomfited, worn out) than the previous one. The conclusion was that the heavenly bodies that look sit still since Adam era is actually moving away from us - the Universe is expanding, just like rear light of the moving away car.

Well, not quite.  It's not that there is less light, or any significant change in the light from one photo to the next.  The reason Hubble concluded that distant galaxies are moving away from us is due to the Doppler shift in the light's spectrum.  Essentially the light is just a tiny bit redder than it ought to be.  It's like when you hear an ambulance siren as it passes you -- the pitch is lower when the source is moving away from you (and higher as it is approaching you) compared to its pitch when it is stationary.

If you want more detail, you can read a simple explanation here: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble - http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.



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