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ishak & ismael isue

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses
Forum Discription: Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=255
Printed Date: 24 July 2014 at 1:06pm


Topic: ishak & ismael isue
Posted By: semar
Subject: ishak & ismael isue
Date Posted: 26 March 2005 at 10:58pm

Salam,

In the story of prophet Abraham, there is disagremment between Islam in one side and Cristianity/Judaism in the other side about the child who slautered by Prophet Abraham. According to Islam the child was Ismael and according to Christianity/Judaism was Ishak. Is there anybody in this forum knows the arguments of both side based on the holly scripts or other sources.



-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"



Replies:
Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 27 March 2005 at 8:12am

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh Sister Semar,

 Here is an abstraction from the book of Dr.Ali Shariati,i believe you will love to see the back ground of the happening including advices to us...

 

The Sacrifice of Ismail 

Your dear son, the fruit of your life, your joy, your reason for being, the meaning of your existence, your son, no, your Ismail - Knock him down as a lamb and offer him as a sacrifice! Hold his limbs under your feet so he cannot escape. Hold his head by grabbing his hair in your hands, cut his carotid, but hold him under your feet until you feel he cannot move anymore. Then - stand up and leave him alone! Oh "obedient" one and "Servant" of God! This is what God wants from you. This is the "call of your faith" "the spirit of your message". This is your responsibility - Oh "responsible man"! Oh "father of Ismail"! 

Ibrahim had two alternatives - either to follow the cry of his heart and "save" Ismail or to follow the order of God and "sacrifice" him! He had to choose one! "Love" and "truth" were struggling inside him (love which was his life and truth which was his faith)! Had Allah asked for his own life, it would have been much easier! Ibrahim gave his life for the cause of Allah and this was why he felt "obedient" to God. This was a "selfishness" and a "weakness" for him. What is good and beautiful for certain people is considered bad and ugly for an honorable man like Ibrahim. He was the closest to God. (Note the relativity of moral values in Ibrahim's school! What a different interpretation.) 

Oh Ibrahim, "give up your Ismail"! "Doubt" - how killing and dangerous it is! As a result, one seeks refuge in an "explanation and justification". This happens when the heart hates but the faith loves! His "responsibility" wants him to give up his son, but it is very difficult to do. He tries to find a means of evasion. What is worse than a wrong "interpretation" is the right "explanation" (i.e. to rely on one "fact" and to deny another "fact")! And more disastrous is when "falsehood" has "wisdom" as a sword in one hand and "religion" as a shield in the other! 

"SACRIFICE YOUR ISMAIL" - How do I know the meaning of this command? How can I be sure that the word "sacrifice" does not have a figurative meaning like "sacrifice your soul" which means do not be the slave of your instincts and avoid their temptation! How do I know that the pronoun "you" in "your Ismail" is referring to me and I am the receiver of this call? Why is not this a collective call which in figurative meaning is an individual call ? How do I know "Ismail" refers to "my Ismail" and it is not again a figurative word?' 

How do I know that from a grammatical point of view, in the phrase "sacrificing Ismail", Ismail is not a noun in the genitive case which replaces the noun governing the genitive and the latter omitted? This very often happens in the Arabic language as well as in the Holy Quran. For example, "asked the village" means "asked the people of the village" and here to "sacrifice Ismail" means to "sacrifice for the love of Ismail". 

Let us suppose all these possibilities are impossible; none of the given meanings are correct and the command is as simple as everyone understands it. "Sacrifice your Ismail" - how do I know this has to be done right away? There is no time limit in this order as any written law. It is the duty of wisdom to choose the time taking into consideration the circumstances, policies, possibilities and potentials. The Holy Quran says to participate in Holy War but the time and form of this war depends on circumstances adopted by wisdom. Another example is the tradition where one is ordered to search for knowledge. 

"Searching for knowledge is a must for every Muslim man and woman." 

No one is forced to do it at a given time; even if he does it at the very last hours of his life when he is in bed dying he has obeyed the command and performed his duty! Another example is the Hajj which is the duty of every Muslim. Many wait until they have lived their life freely; towards the end of it, they may decide to perform Hajj. This is a duty which can be fulfilled at anytime. These believers think it is a responsibility they have towards the hereafter, not towards life. They feel most religious laws are for the blessing and forgiveness in the after-life, not for the benefit of their education progress and perfection in the life before death.' 

How do I know, from a methodical point of view, that this imperative sentence "sacrifice your Ismail" is a "must" and not a recommendation? Most likely it is the latter one! This is not like the order of "and give the poor due"where everyone should give the needy his share. 

Rather it is like this verse of the Quran II: 188 

And eat not up your property among yourselves in vanity nor seek by it to Sain the hearing of the judges that ye may knowingly devour a portion of the property of others wrongfully

It is a despicable action in the eyes of God. The order in this verse is for our guidance. This type of order, the order of revelation, is to remind us of the judgment of our wisdom. 

If we disregard all the explanations and interpretations stated above, it is obvious from His command that the Almighty God wants to remind us that the love for a child is nothing. To submit to the truth, you must give up all interests which pre-occupy your thoughts and prevent you from communicating with God. Since Ibrahim's love for Ismail kept Him busy and may have caused him to forget his responsibility, Allah ordered him to "Sacrifice Ismail" so that he would submit totally to the will of Allah. As was said earlier, to SACRIFICE YOUR ISMAIL means to disregard the joy and love of Ismail. The same essence may be derived from the following verse of the Holy Quran VIII: 28: 

And know that your possessions and your children are a test

After all these wise and legitimate explanations, examples of verses, stories, measures of methodical science and rationalizations for all purposes of good, it is a sin to kill someone!!! One cannot attribute such a sinful command to the most merciful and exalted Allah! 

Yes an "explanation"to find an "escape" is used when it is hard to accept the fact; and to accept the responsibility is contrary to one's wishes and dreams. When "fact" and "justice" are only "by-standers of life", many men will speak of "justice" and "human rights". They may justify themselves by doing "some good deeds" along with their daily routines, continuing their business and living their happy life without disturbances! When "fact" and "justice" are "concurrent with life", they are used as a capital, a tool, a fame, a rank, a job and a license for living. People not only speak of justice, but consider themselves righteous and wish to serve others. 

BUT when "truth clashes with one's daily life", then the supporter of the truth and justice is going to be in trouble and in danger ... He has to shoulder a very heavy responsibility, find his way through the dark and stormy night and face all the hazards and pitfalls. The farther he goes in this way, the fewer his companions become until he is left with a few friends or none at all! He has to leave behind whatever and whoever is an obstacle in his way, especially those who live in the darkness of oppression and are used to it. 

Almighty Allah is ordering you to sacrifice your life and your love and to go on; but evil temptations force you to stay and follow them How? - By the explanations! That is, by making alterations In your faith in order to cope with worldly demands. As such you will not be accused of being an unbeliever or rebellious against God and disloyal to people! Here "explanation" means "to certify the false as truth". You may call it whatever you want - a social, moral, scientific, psychological, dialectical or intellectual explanation. What difference does it make? But in Hajj and in the biography of Ibrahim the great who was victorious in all his trials honest, righteous, sincere and struggled in Jihad to defend the "absolute truth", Allah called it - "the evil explanation"! Ibrahim s clear and strong wisdom was weakened by these questions - How do I know? How can it be? I only heard this message in my "dream", he said. Satan strengthened the "love for his son" in his heart and made him rationalize a means of "escape"! This was the first time, the First Jamarah and he refused to sacrifice his son! 

********** 

Ibrahim "you must sacrifice your son"! The message was clearer. This created struggle inside the great hero of human history. Because of Satan's temptation, he felt doubt, fear and weakness. He was defeated in the conflict between Allah and Satan. In the depth of human nature there exists a contradiction between love and wisdom, life and faith,for one's self or for God 

... This is the nature of man - a phenomenon between human and animal, nature and God, instinct and wisdom, heaven and earth, this world and the hereafter, love for one's self and love for God, reality and truth satisfaction and perfection, being and becoming, slavery and freedom, carelessness and responsibility, belief and disbelief, for "me" and for "us" and finally the one "who is" and one "who should 

It was the second day. Ibrahim weighed his love for Ismail against his responsibility to Allah. Ismail's life was in danger. Satan attempted to deceive Ibrahim just as he persuaded "Adam to eat from the "forbidden fruit" in the Garden! As any man with dialectic potentials - mud and the spirit of God - Ibrahim was in doubt whether he should choose his "son" or the "message". 

Quran XCI: 8 

And inspired it (with consciousness) what is wrong for it and right for it.  

- Oh Prophet of God, the message is your responsibility! 

- Oh Prophet of God, do you want to remain a father to your son? 

- Do I have to sacrifice Ismail with my own hands? 

- Yes! I must sacrifice my son for the cause of Allah. 

- Emotional obligations are the least important when compared to my ideology. 

- Shall I remain the father of Ismail or carry on the message? 

Satan tried again: "But I hear this message in my dream; how could it be real?" And this was the second time he refused to sacrifice his son Ibrahim, SACRIFICE YOUR SON ISMAIL. This time the message was so clear that it was difficult to rationalize by any type of "explanation". He had no choice; the call was as plain as black and white. Satan, with all his intelligence and skill, could not do anything to change it. Denying the message would be obeying Satan. He was at the edge of a very deep valley; should he fall off. Should Ibrahim, who destroyed the idols, was a great prophet founded Islam, led the Umma (nation) ..., fall from the glorious height of tawheed to the depth of the valley of disbelief ... Not disbelief, but belief in many gods and worshipping others along with God! ! ! 

The Quran describes Ibrahim standing in Mina, facing Allah and Satan. He can not side with both and he can not ignore them. What a fearful story - "man" the representative of God who can act similar to God to do almost anything he wants and rule the whole world here is so weak and disabled! He has the spirit of God, yet he has weakness. 

Quran IV: 28 

For man was created weak. 

In this world, no one is safe from falling. Like a child who has just learned to walk, you must be careful not to fall! Had not the last prophet of God been careful, he would have fallen and he would no longer have been innocent. 

Quran XXXIX: 65 

If thou ascribe a partner to Allah thy work will fail and thou indeed wilt be among the losers. 

At the end of his life, Ibrahim, the father of the great prophets of Islam, the most exalted by human spirit and God's love, was led to the edge of this pitfall because of "his natural love for Ismail". After being a righteous and true believer for a hundred years, Ibrahim was about to be cheated by Satan. 

Ibrahim, "there is no choice for you", Allah and Satan are at your right and left. Which one are you going to choose?!? Now there is no doubt about the message. The searcher of truth hardly makes a mistake just as the honeybee finds his hive in the dark, in the storm in the desert or on the distant mountain. No, Ibrahim who lived a long and trustworthy life was not going to be cheated by Satan! Accepting the message was like jumping into a fire; and Satan, the enemy, was trying to put it out. You can not tell an enemy from a friend by what he does; this judgment should not be based on self interest. 

It was obvious what Ibrahim had to do. His previous doubts stemmed from the extreme love he had for Ismail. The poor, old father desperately waited for a son for many years. It was painful, very painful! Oh, such a fearful tragedy! Ibrahim's responsibility was beyond the tolerance of an old and lonely father who had to sacrifice his son. It would have been much easier had Ibrahim been sacrificed by Ismail. Easy and joyful, but no - the young Ismail to die and the old father to survive, lonely and sad ... with his old and bloody hands! 

When Ibrahim thought about the message, he was absolutely obedient, but when he thought of sacrificing Ismail, he felt an intolerable pain, breaking his bone and leaving a sad expression on his face. Satan who saw Ibrahim in such a miserable state, tried to cheat him again! Satan is the enemy of man! Wherever and whomever there is a sign of fear, weakness, doubt, jealousy, desparity, stupidity and even love, he appears to do his evil job. He entertains and keeps you from your duties so that the truth of the message will not be realized. 

Quran VIII: 28 

Even the love for your son is a way of "testing" you!. 

The love of Ismail was a test for Ibrahim; this was his only weakness when he was confronted by Eblis (Satan). Ibrahim knew it was a clear revelation and that he had to sacrifice his son. He was sad and broken hearted. This is how Satan had the opportunity to deceive him. Taking advantage of the situation, Satan appeared before Ibrahim and whispered the same thing-"I heard this message in my dream". "No, that is enough, that is enough", Ibrahim said to himself! He made his decision and his choice was obvious - "absolute freedom of obedience to Allah" (i.e. to sacrifice Ismail). This was the last obstacle in the way of his freedom. Ibrahim decided to share the message with Ismail, so he called him. Ismail came and his father looked at him from his head to his toe. He was a victim and such a great sacrifice. 



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Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 04 April 2005 at 3:05pm

Assalamu alaykum,

Thanks Br. Suleyman.



-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: silent
Date Posted: 02 June 2005 at 12:43am

Assalamalaikum

Opinion by Ibn -e- katheer:

37:101 "So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son."

And this son is Ishmael(P) for he is the first son whose good news was brought to Abraham(P). He is older than Isaac according to Muslims and ahl al-kitâb (i.e., the People of the Book) too. It is even said in their Scripture that Ishmael(P) was born when Abraham(P) was 86 years old and Isaac(P) was born when Abraham(P) was 99. In their Scripture as well, God is said to have ordered Abraham(P) to sacrifice his only son and in another version his firstborn. And, at this spot, they inserted falsely the name of Isaac(P) against the text of their very Scripture. The reason they inserted Isaac(P) is that he is their father whereas Ishmael(P) is the father of the Arabs. They added Isaac(P) out of envy and brushed away "only son" by saying that Ishmael(P) and his mother had already been to Makkah. This is a mere [farfetched] explanation since we never say "only son" except to a person who hasn't got but one son. Moreover, the firstborn has got a special place [in the heart of his father] that is not given to the following children and the order to sacrifice him is therefore a greater test. Some knowledgeable people were inclined to say that the sacrificed was Isaac(P). This was reported from some people of the salaf (i.e. people of the previous generations) and it was even reported from some Companions(R) but [this opinion] does not have any bearings from the Book [i.e., the Qur'ân] nor from the Sunnah. I think such opinion was received from the Rabbis of ahl al-Kitâb as is without evidence. Moreover, God's Book is a witness and points to the fact that it is Ishmael(P) because the glad tiding said that the son was patient and that he is the sacrificed. Only afterwards, He said: "And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous." and when the Angels brought the good news of Isaac(P) to Abraham(P) they said: " "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge." And the Most High said: " We gave her [Sarah] glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob." [11:71] meaning that in the lifetime of Abraham(P) and Sarah(P), Isaac(P) will beget a child that he will call Jacob(P) implying that Isaac(P) will have a progeny. We have already explained why it is not possible that Isaac(P) be sacrificed while still a child i.e., because God promised them [Abraham and Sarah] that he will have a progeny. On the other hand, Ishmael(P) was described as forbearing and he fits that description.

[Note that many commentators including Ibn Kathîr believe that "forbearing" does not fit a child, it can at least describe teenagers for they are old enough to be described as such.]

In a nutshell, according to the Bible, the sacrificed is said to be Abraham's(P) only son (or his firstborn in some versions), which cannot fit Isaac(P); according to the Qur'ân, the good news of Isaac(P) said that he would have a progeny and consequently God cannot order Abraham(P) to sacrifice Isaac(P) before the promise is fulfilled. Again, according to the Qur'ân, the sacrificed cannot be Isaac



Posted By: Saido
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 2:40pm

  

  An He (God Almighty) said, Take now thy son, THINE ONLY SON...whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering..        &n bsp;         &n bsp;                       Genesis 22:2 

 If at anytime an offspring of Abraham (pbuh) can be described as  "thine only son"  it could only be Ishmael, because for thirteen years, he was the only son and seed of Abraham.

  Ahmed Deedat's  The Choice   Islam and Christianity   "Combat Kit" volume 2  page 53



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Suleyman

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh Sister Semar,

 Here is an abstraction from the book of Dr.Ali Shariati,i believe you will love to see the back ground of the happening including advices to us...

 

The Sacrifice of Ismail 

Your dear son, the fruit of your life, your joy, your reason for being, the meaning of your existence, your son, no, your Ismail - Knock him down as a lamb and offer him as a sacrifice! Hold his limbs under your feet so he cannot escape. Hold his head by grabbing his hair in your hands, cut his carotid, but hold him under your feet until you feel he cannot move anymore. Then - stand up and leave him alone! Oh "obedient" one and "Servant" of God! This is what God wants from you. This is the "call of your faith" "the spirit of your message". This is your responsibility - Oh "responsible man"! Oh "father of Ismail"! 

Ibrahim had two alternatives - either to follow the cry of his heart and "save" Ismail or to follow the order of God and "sacrifice" him! He had to choose one! "Love" and "truth" were struggling inside him (love which was his life and truth which was his faith)! Had Allah asked for his own life, it would have been much easier! Ibrahim gave his life for the cause of Allah and this was why he felt "obedient" to God. This was a "selfishness" and a "weakness" for him. What is good and beautiful for certain people is considered bad and ugly for an honorable man like Ibrahim. He was the closest to God. (Note the relativity of moral values in Ibrahim's school! What a different interpretation.) 

Oh Ibrahim, "give up your Ismail"! "Doubt" - how killing and dangerous it is! As a result, one seeks refuge in an "explanation and justification". This happens when the heart hates but the faith loves! His "responsibility" wants him to give up his son, but it is very difficult to do. He tries to find a means of evasion. What is worse than a wrong "interpretation" is the right "explanation" (i.e. to rely on one "fact" and to deny another "fact")! And more disastrous is when "falsehood" has "wisdom" as a sword in one hand and "religion" as a shield in the other! 

"SACRIFICE YOUR ISMAIL" - How do I know the meaning of this command? How can I be sure that the word "sacrifice" does not have a figurative meaning like "sacrifice your soul" which means do not be the slave of your instincts and avoid their temptation! How do I know that the pronoun "you" in "your Ismail" is referring to me and I am the receiver of this call? Why is not this a collective call which in figurative meaning is an individual call ? How do I know "Ismail" refers to "my Ismail" and it is not again a figurative word?' 

How do I know that from a grammatical point of view, in the phrase "sacrificing Ismail", Ismail is not a noun in the genitive case which replaces the noun governing the genitive and the latter omitted? This very often happens in the Arabic language as well as in the Holy Quran. For example, "asked the village" means "asked the people of the village" and here to "sacrifice Ismail" means to "sacrifice for the love of Ismail". 

Let us suppose all these possibilities are impossible; none of the given meanings are correct and the command is as simple as everyone understands it. "Sacrifice your Ismail" - how do I know this has to be done right away? There is no time limit in this order as any written law. It is the duty of wisdom to choose the time taking into consideration the circumstances, policies, possibilities and potentials. The Holy Quran says to participate in Holy War but the time and form of this war depends on circumstances adopted by wisdom. Another example is the tradition where one is ordered to search for knowledge. 

"Searching for knowledge is a must for every Muslim man and woman." 

No one is forced to do it at a given time; even if he does it at the very last hours of his life when he is in bed dying he has obeyed the command and performed his duty! Another example is the Hajj which is the duty of every Muslim. Many wait until they have lived their life freely; towards the end of it, they may decide to perform Hajj. This is a duty which can be fulfilled at anytime. These believers think it is a responsibility they have towards the hereafter, not towards life. They feel most religious laws are for the blessing and forgiveness in the after-life, not for the benefit of their education progress and perfection in the life before death.' 

How do I know, from a methodical point of view, that this imperative sentence "sacrifice your Ismail" is a "must" and not a recommendation? Most likely it is the latter one! This is not like the order of "and give the poor due"where everyone should give the needy his share. 

Rather it is like this verse of the Quran II: 188 

And eat not up your property among yourselves in vanity nor seek by it to Sain the hearing of the judges that ye may knowingly devour a portion of the property of others wrongfully

It is a despicable action in the eyes of God. The order in this verse is for our guidance. This type of order, the order of revelation, is to remind us of the judgment of our wisdom. 

If we disregard all the explanations and interpretations stated above, it is obvious from His command that the Almighty God wants to remind us that the love for a child is nothing. To submit to the truth, you must give up all interests which pre-occupy your thoughts and prevent you from communicating with God. Since Ibrahim's love for Ismail kept Him busy and may have caused him to forget his responsibility, Allah ordered him to "Sacrifice Ismail" so that he would submit totally to the will of Allah. As was said earlier, to SACRIFICE YOUR ISMAIL means to disregard the joy and love of Ismail. The same essence may be derived from the following verse of the Holy Quran VIII: 28: 

And know that your possessions and your children are a test

After all these wise and legitimate explanations, examples of verses, stories, measures of methodical science and rationalizations for all purposes of good, it is a sin to kill someone!!! One cannot attribute such a sinful command to the most merciful and exalted Allah! 

Yes an "explanation"to find an "escape" is used when it is hard to accept the fact; and to accept the responsibility is contrary to one's wishes and dreams. When "fact" and "justice" are only "by-standers of life", many men will speak of "justice" and "human rights". They may justify themselves by doing "some good deeds" along with their daily routines, continuing their business and living their happy life without disturbances! When "fact" and "justice" are "concurrent with life", they are used as a capital, a tool, a fame, a rank, a job and a license for living. People not only speak of justice, but consider themselves righteous and wish to serve others. 

BUT when "truth clashes with one's daily life", then the supporter of the truth and justice is going to be in trouble and in danger ... He has to shoulder a very heavy responsibility, find his way through the dark and stormy night and face all the hazards and pitfalls. The farther he goes in this way, the fewer his companions become until he is left with a few friends or none at all! He has to leave behind whatever and whoever is an obstacle in his way, especially those who live in the darkness of oppression and are used to it. 

Almighty Allah is ordering you to sacrifice your life and your love and to go on; but evil temptations force you to stay and follow them How? - By the explanations! That is, by making alterations In your faith in order to cope with worldly demands. As such you will not be accused of being an unbeliever or rebellious against God and disloyal to people! Here "explanation" means "to certify the false as truth". You may call it whatever you want - a social, moral, scientific, psychological, dialectical or intellectual explanation. What difference does it make? But in Hajj and in the biography of Ibrahim the great who was victorious in all his trials honest, righteous, sincere and struggled in Jihad to defend the "absolute truth", Allah called it - "the evil explanation"! Ibrahim s clear and strong wisdom was weakened by these questions - How do I know? How can it be? I only heard this message in my "dream", he said. Satan strengthened the "love for his son" in his heart and made him rationalize a means of "escape"! This was the first time, the First Jamarah and he refused to sacrifice his son! 

********** 

Ibrahim "you must sacrifice your son"! The message was clearer. This created struggle inside the great hero of human history. Because of Satan's temptation, he felt doubt, fear and weakness. He was defeated in the conflict between Allah and Satan. In the depth of human nature there exists a contradiction between love and wisdom, life and faith,for one's self or for God 

... This is the nature of man - a phenomenon between human and animal, nature and God, instinct and wisdom, heaven and earth, this world and the hereafter, love for one's self and love for God, reality and truth satisfaction and perfection, being and becoming, slavery and freedom, carelessness and responsibility, belief and disbelief, for "me" and for "us" and finally the one "who is" and one "who should 

It was the second day. Ibrahim weighed his love for Ismail against his responsibility to Allah. Ismail's life was in danger. Satan attempted to deceive Ibrahim just as he persuaded "Adam to eat from the "forbidden fruit" in the Garden! As any man with dialectic potentials - mud and the spirit of God - Ibrahim was in doubt whether he should choose his "son" or the "message". 

Quran XCI: 8 

And inspired it (with consciousness) what is wrong for it and right for it.  

- Oh Prophet of God, the message is your responsibility! 

- Oh Prophet of God, do you want to remain a father to your son? 

- Do I have to sacrifice Ismail with my own hands? 

- Yes! I must sacrifice my son for the cause of Allah. 

- Emotional obligations are the least important when compared to my ideology. 

- Shall I remain the father of Ismail or carry on the message? 

Satan tried again: "But I hear this message in my dream; how could it be real?" And this was the second time he refused to sacrifice his son Ibrahim, SACRIFICE YOUR SON ISMAIL. This time the message was so clear that it was difficult to rationalize by any type of "explanation". He had no choice; the call was as plain as black and white. Satan, with all his intelligence and skill, could not do anything to change it. Denying the message would be obeying Satan. He was at the edge of a very deep valley; should he fall off. Should Ibrahim, who destroyed the idols, was a great prophet founded Islam, led the Umma (nation) ..., fall from the glorious height of tawheed to the depth of the valley of disbelief ... Not disbelief, but belief in many gods and worshipping others along with God! ! ! 

The Quran describes Ibrahim standing in Mina, facing Allah and Satan. He can not side with both and he can not ignore them. What a fearful story - "man" the representative of God who can act similar to God to do almost anything he wants and rule the whole world here is so weak and disabled! He has the spirit of God, yet he has weakness. 

Quran IV: 28 

For man was created weak. 

In this world, no one is safe from falling. Like a child who has just learned to walk, you must be careful not to fall! Had not the last prophet of God been careful, he would have fallen and he would no longer have been innocent. 

Quran XXXIX: 65 

If thou ascribe a partner to Allah thy work will fail and thou indeed wilt be among the losers. 

At the end of his life, Ibrahim, the father of the great prophets of Islam, the most exalted by human spirit and God's love, was led to the edge of this pitfall because of "his natural love for Ismail". After being a righteous and true believer for a hundred years, Ibrahim was about to be cheated by Satan. 

Ibrahim, "there is no choice for you", Allah and Satan are at your right and left. Which one are you going to choose?!? Now there is no doubt about the message. The searcher of truth hardly makes a mistake just as the honeybee finds his hive in the dark, in the storm in the desert or on the distant mountain. No, Ibrahim who lived a long and trustworthy life was not going to be cheated by Satan! Accepting the message was like jumping into a fire; and Satan, the enemy, was trying to put it out. You can not tell an enemy from a friend by what he does; this judgment should not be based on self interest. 

It was obvious what Ibrahim had to do. His previous doubts stemmed from the extreme love he had for Ismail. The poor, old father desperately waited for a son for many years. It was painful, very painful! Oh, such a fearful tragedy! Ibrahim's responsibility was beyond the tolerance of an old and lonely father who had to sacrifice his son. It would have been much easier had Ibrahim been sacrificed by Ismail. Easy and joyful, but no - the young Ismail to die and the old father to survive, lonely and sad ... with his old and bloody hands! 

When Ibrahim thought about the message, he was absolutely obedient, but when he thought of sacrificing Ismail, he felt an intolerable pain, breaking his bone and leaving a sad expression on his face. Satan who saw Ibrahim in such a miserable state, tried to cheat him again! Satan is the enemy of man! Wherever and whomever there is a sign of fear, weakness, doubt, jealousy, desparity, st**idity and even love, he appears to do his evil job. He entertains and keeps you from your duties so that the truth of the message will not be realized. 

Quran VIII: 28 

Even the love for your son is a way of "testing" you!. 

The love of Ismail was a test for Ibrahim; this was his only weakness when he was confronted by Eblis (Satan). Ibrahim knew it was a clear revelation and that he had to sacrifice his son. He was sad and broken hearted. This is how Satan had the opportunity to deceive him. Taking advantage of the situation, Satan appeared before Ibrahim and whispered the same thing-"I heard this message in my dream". "No, that is enough, that is enough", Ibrahim said to himself! He made his decision and his choice was obvious - "absolute freedom of obedience to Allah" (i.e. to sacrifice Ismail). This was the last obstacle in the way of his freedom. Ibrahim decided to share the message with Ismail, so he called him. Ismail came and his father looked at him from his head to his toe. He was a victim and such a great sacrifice. 

 

ALL based on the Quran and your opinion. What about the Torah?



Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by Saido

  

  An He (God Almighty) said, Take now thy son, THINE ONLY SON...whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering..        &a mp;n bsp;         &a mp;n bsp;                       Genesis 22:2 

 If at anytime an offspring of Abraham (pbuh) can be described as  "thine only son"  it could only be Ishmael, because for thirteen years, he was the only son and seed of Abraham.

  Ahmed Deedat's  The Choice   Islam and Christianity   "Combat Kit" volume 2  page 53

 

How interesting that you forget in th eprevious chapter of Genesis, Sarah turns agains Hagar and Abrahams sends her on her way; Gen 21:14

So the truth is as it states in Genesis 22:2

 2He said, "Take now (A)your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of (B)Moriah, and offer him there as a (C)burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."



Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 1:05pm

This dramatic episode proved the faith and obedience not only of Abraham but also of his son Isaac. Jewish tradition, recorded by Josephus, says that Isaac was 25 years old at the time.   At any rate, he was old enough and strong enough to carry a considerable quantity of wood up a mountain. So, he could have resisted his 125-year-old father when the time came to bind him if he had chosen to be rebellious against Jehovah’s commandments. (Jewish Antiquities, I, 227 [xiii, 2]) Instead, Isaac submissively let his father proceed to offer him as a sacrifice in harmony with God’s will.   For this demonstration of Abraham’s faith, Jehovah then repeated and enlarged upon his covenant with Abraham, which covenant was transferred by God to Isaac after the death of Isaac’s father.—Genesis 22:15-18; 26:1-5; Romans 9:7; James 2:21.



Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 20 September 2008 at 9:38pm
 peace

-------------
love for all conquers all


Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 21 September 2008 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by semar

Salam,

In the story of prophet Abraham, there is disagremment between Islam in one side and Cristianity/Judaism in the other side about the child who slautered by Prophet Abraham. According to Islam the child was Ismael and according to Christianity/Judaism was Ishak. Is there anybody in this forum knows the arguments of both side based on the holly scripts or other sources.

this is from the gospel of barnabas http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view - http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view  
     DATES BEFORE 180 CE.  READ HOW IT SURVIED ON THE WEBSITE.
      NOTICE WHO'S NAME IS MENTIONED AT THE BOTTOM. AND REMEMER THE DATE OF THIS.
 
Thereupon said the disciples: 'O master, it is thus written in the book of Moses, that in Isaac was the promise made.'
    
              Jesus answered, with a groan: 'It is so written, but Moses wrote it not, nor Joshua, but rather our rabbins, who fear not God. Verily I say unto you, that if ye consider the words of  the angel Gabriel, ye shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for love of God." Abraham answered: "Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will."
    
              'Then spoke God, saying to Abraham: "Take thy son, thy firstborn Ishmael, and come up the mountain to sacrifice him."
              How is Isaac firstborn, if when Isaac was born Ishmael was seven years old?

    
             Then said the disciples: 'Clear is the deception of our doctors: therefore tell us thou the truth, because we know that thou art sent from God.'
    
            Then answered Jesus: 'Verily I say unto you, that Satan ever seeketh to annual the laws of God; and therefore he with his followers, hypocrites and evil-doers, the former with false doctrine, the latter with lewd living, to-day have contaminated almost all things, so that scarcely is the truth found. Woe to the hypocrites! for the praises of this world shall turn for them into insults and torments in hell.
    
          'I therefore say unto you that the messenger of God is a splendour that shall give gladness to nearly all that God hath made, for he is adorned with the spirit of understanding and of counsel, the spirit of wisdom and might, the spirit of fear and love, the spirit of prudence and temperance, he is adorned with the spirit of charity and mercy, the spirit of justice and piety, the spirit of gentleness and patience, which he hath received from God three times more than he hath given to all his creatures. O blessed time, when he shall come to the world! Believe me that I have seen him and have done him reverence, even as every prophet hath seen him: seeing that of his spirit God giveth to them prophecy. And when I saw him my soul was filled with consolation, saying: "O Mohammed, God be with thee, and may he make me worthy to untie thy shoelatchet, for obtaining this I shall be a great prophet and holy one of God." '
    
         And having said this, Jesus rendered his thanks to God.


-------------
love for all conquers all


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 September 2008 at 5:51am
Originally posted by Nazarene

Originally posted by semar

Salam,

In the story of prophet Abraham, there is disagremment between Islam in one side and Cristianity/Judaism in the other side about the child who slautered by Prophet Abraham. According to Islam the child was Ismael and according to Christianity/Judaism was Ishak. Is there anybody in this forum knows the arguments of both side based on the holly scripts or other sources.

this is from the gospel of barnabas http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view - http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view  
     DATES BEFORE 180 CE.  READ HOW IT SURVIED ON THE WEBSITE.
      NOTICE WHO'S NAME IS MENTIONED AT THE BOTTOM. AND REMEMER THE DATE OF THIS.
 
Thereupon said the disciples: 'O master, it is thus written in the book of Moses, that in Isaac was the promise made.'
    
              Jesus answered, with a groan: 'It is so written, but Moses wrote it not, nor Joshua, but rather our rabbins, who fear not God. Verily I say unto you, that if ye consider the words of  the angel Gabriel, ye shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for love of God." Abraham answered: "Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will."
    
              'Then spoke God, saying to Abraham: "Take thy son, thy firstborn Ishmael, and come up the mountain to sacrifice him."
              How is Isaac firstborn, if when Isaac was born Ishmael was seven years old?

    
             Then said the disciples: 'Clear is the deception of our doctors: therefore tell us thou the truth, because we know that thou art sent from God.'
    
            Then answered Jesus: 'Verily I say unto you, that Satan ever seeketh to annual the laws of God; and therefore he with his followers, hypocrites and evil-doers, the former with false doctrine, the latter with lewd living, to-day have contaminated almost all things, so that scarcely is the truth found. Woe to the hypocrites! for the praises of this world shall turn for them into insults and torments in hell.
    
          'I therefore say unto you that the messenger of God is a splendour that shall give gladness to nearly all that God hath made, for he is adorned with the spirit of understanding and of counsel, the spirit of wisdom and might, the spirit of fear and love, the spirit of prudence and temperance, he is adorned with the spirit of charity and mercy, the spirit of justice and piety, the spirit of gentleness and patience, which he hath received from God three times more than he hath given to all his creatures. O blessed time, when he shall come to the world! Believe me that I have seen him and have done him reverence, even as every prophet hath seen him: seeing that of his spirit God giveth to them prophecy. And when I saw him my soul was filled with consolation, saying: "O Mohammed, God be with thee, and may he make me worthy to untie thy shoelatchet, for obtaining this I shall be a great prophet and holy one of God." '
    
         And having said this, Jesus rendered his thanks to God.
 
 

Isaac is firstborn my God's promise and God's miraculous help to have children when they were both past the age of having children, Abraham was about a 100 yrs. old (Gen 17:17).   So from God's viewpoint he is first by God's Will.

 

Ishmael was according to the flesh (not the will of God), and not of God's promise, so I time he was first, but not according to God's will, and is thus not in the line of the promised one to come!



Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 27 September 2008 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Nazarene

Originally posted by semar

Salam,

In the story of prophet Abraham, there is disagremment between Islam in one side and Cristianity/Judaism in the other side about the child who slautered by Prophet Abraham. According to Islam the child was Ismael and according to Christianity/Judaism was Ishak. Is there anybody in this forum knows the arguments of both side based on the holly scripts or other sources.

this is from the gospel of barnabas http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view - http://www.barnabas.net/chapters/92.html?task=view  
     DATES BEFORE 180 CE.  READ HOW IT SURVIED ON THE WEBSITE.
      NOTICE WHO'S NAME IS MENTIONED AT THE BOTTOM. AND REMEMER THE DATE OF THIS.
 
Thereupon said the disciples: 'O master, it is thus written in the book of Moses, that in Isaac was the promise made.'
    
              Jesus answered, with a groan: 'It is so written, but Moses wrote it not, nor Joshua, but rather our rabbins, who fear not God. Verily I say unto you, that if ye consider the words of  the angel Gabriel, ye shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for love of God." Abraham answered: "Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will."
    
              'Then spoke God, saying to Abraham: "Take thy son, thy firstborn Ishmael, and come up the mountain to sacrifice him."
              How is Isaac firstborn, if when Isaac was born Ishmael was seven years old?

    
             Then said the disciples: 'Clear is the deception of our doctors: therefore tell us thou the truth, because we know that thou art sent from God.'
    
            Then answered Jesus: 'Verily I say unto you, that Satan ever seeketh to annual the laws of God; and therefore he with his followers, hypocrites and evil-doers, the former with false doctrine, the latter with lewd living, to-day have contaminated almost all things, so that scarcely is the truth found. Woe to the hypocrites! for the praises of this world shall turn for them into insults and torments in hell.
    
          'I therefore say unto you that the messenger of God is a splendour that shall give gladness to nearly all that God hath made, for he is adorned with the spirit of understanding and of counsel, the spirit of wisdom and might, the spirit of fear and love, the spirit of prudence and temperance, he is adorned with the spirit of charity and mercy, the spirit of justice and piety, the spirit of gentleness and patience, which he hath received from God three times more than he hath given to all his creatures. O blessed time, when he shall come to the world! Believe me that I have seen him and have done him reverence, even as every prophet hath seen him: seeing that of his spirit God giveth to them prophecy. And when I saw him my soul was filled with consolation, saying: "O Mohammed, God be with thee, and may he make me worthy to untie thy shoelatchet, for obtaining this I shall be a great prophet and holy one of God." '
    
         And having said this, Jesus rendered his thanks to God.
 
 

Isaac is firstborn my God's promise and God's miraculous help to have children when they were both past the age of having children, Abraham was about a 100 yrs. old (Gen 17:17).   So from God's viewpoint he is first by God's Will.

 

Ishmael was according to the flesh (not the will of God), and not of God's promise, so I time he was first, but not according to God's will, and is thus not in the line of the promised one to come!

 
jeremiah 8:8'  How can you say, "We are wise,
       for we have the law of the LORD,"
       when actually the lying pen of the scribes
       has handled it falsely
 
  hebrews 8:13   By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear
 
  Gospel of Peace
http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html - http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html  
 
    And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"
 
Jesus said: "You do not understand the words of life, because you are in death. Darkness darkens your eyes and your ears are stopped with deafness. For I tell you, it profits you not at all that you pore over dead scriptures if by your deeds you deny him who has given you the scriptureses
 
  my point is the same as stated by our bro. minuteman below .
 
    we must understand where your infomation comes from. as stated above corrupt, outdated and rendered irrelevent by that writen by amens' own hand.
 
also i belive the story of the prodical son relates to the leaving of isaac. ishmael and abraham remained together.
 


-------------
love for all conquers all


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 8:20am

 Here is wonderful article by http://answering-christianity.com/abdul-rahman_klimaszewski/index.html - Abdul-Rahman(Brent) Klimaszewskil (He is a new convert to Islam) on the subject of http://answering-christianity.com/abdul-rahman_klimaszewski/abraham_and_ishmael.htm - The Truth About Abraham and his SON Ishmael.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 5:49am
 
 That analysis by Abdul rehman is perfect. The incident of sacrifice took place well before the birth of Issac. It took place in arabia, near makkah place called marwah. (remember safa and Marwah).
 
 Abraham migrated from native land, entered Syria and then travelled to Egypt too. Later He returned to palestine and  Allah promised him all the land he could see. But he was childless. He prayed to Allah to grant him some heir. Otherwise land will be no use to him. Please read chapter 37 of Quran from verse 83 onward to verse 112. All is there.
 
 Abraham prayed for a capable son. Allah gave him the good news of a grown up son (Ghulam un Haleem), a forebearing son. That was when Abraham had no son at all. If he had a son then why he will pray for a son? He had no son at that time. So the son being born was a promised son.
 
 When the son grew up and started running about, before that Abraham under divine guidance left that son and his wife Hagar in the wilderness of Arabia at a place now called Makkah and went away.
 
 His wife asked him why he was leaving them there. He had some tears in his eyes and could not look back to reply. Just kept quiet. Then Hagar understood and asked "Are you leaving us here under some divine mission?"  He simply nodded his head and went away back to Kan'a'an.
 
 The mother (Hagar) and child (Ishmael) lived there somehow. Abraham after some time (years) came and visited them. The story that Sarah was full of prejudice & hatred against hagar may or my not be true. I do not believe it but it is written in bible. I do not believe that she was a selfish or ignorant lady. She was all pure and good lady. She did not turn out any one from the house. The inheritance business is all false. What inheritance was there? There was plenty of land and no problem at all. (More in next post)
 
 


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 7:20am
 
  Cont...d.
 
 Allah was pleased with Abraham and gave him a promised son, Ishamel, the first born of Abraham. When Abraham offered Ishmael for sacrifice, Allah was all the more pleased with Abraham and granted  him another son, Issac.
Issac was not born when the incident of sacrifice took place. Issac could not be sacrificed as it was told to Abraham before his birth that he will be a prophet.  When Allah told Abraham a.s. taht Issac will be a prophet then it would be wrong to tell him to sacrifice Issac.
 
  Abraham settled both his sons far away from each other. One in Arabia and hother in Kana'an. There was great wisdom in doing that. Whereas, the children of Issac had to undergo slavery and  foreign occupation, the children of  Ishmael had no such problem. Specially when the prophet s.a.w.s. was born and his mission started, there was no king nearby and no police to disturb the prophet, as it happened in the case of Isa a.s. in Kan'a'an.
 
 That was the divine plan started thousands of years before the advent of the last prophet and for the survival of his mission. Al Hamdu Lillah.
 
 The life of Ishmael a.s. was spared for the sake of greater sacrifices to be offered by the Sahabah of the rasool Allah. The Sahabah gave their lives in the way of Allah like sheeps and goats, in large numbers. That was the ransom. The Ram which was offered by Abraham a.s. was not the ransom. 


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 1:44pm
"Abraham offered Ishmael for sacrifice."
 
You are not telling the Truth!!
 
No he did not:-
 
Genesis 22:1-2
Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. Accordingly he said to him: "Abraham!" to which he said: "Here I am!" 2 And he went on to say: "Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri´ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you."


Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 5:30pm

once more my sister

jeremiah 8:8'  How can you say, "We are wise,
       for we have the law of the LORD,"
       when actually the lying pen of the scribes
       has handled it falsely
 from the GOSPEL OF BARNABAS 44
Thereupon said the disciples: 'O master, it is thus written in the book of Moses, that in Isaac was the promise made.'
    
              Jesus answered, with a groan: 'It is so written, but Moses wrote it not, nor Joshua, but rather our rabbins, who fear not God. Verily I say unto you, that if ye consider the words of  the angel Gabriel, ye shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for love of God." Abraham answered: "Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will."
    
              'Then spoke God, saying to Abraham: "Take thy son, thy firstborn Ishmael, and come up the mountain to sacrifice him."
              How is Isaac firstborn, if when Isaac was born Ishmael was seven years old?
    
             Then said the disciples: 'Clear is the deception of our doctors: therefore tell us thou the truth, because we know that thou art sent from God.'
    
            Then answered Jesus: 'Verily I say unto you, that Satan ever seeketh to annual the laws of God; and therefore he with his followers, hypocrites and evil-doers, the former with false doctrine, the latter with lewd living, to-day have contaminated almost all things, so that scarcely is the truth found. Woe to the hypocrites! for the praises of this world shall turn for them into insults and torments in hell.
    
          'I therefore say unto you that the messenger of God is a splendour that shall give gladness to nearly all that God hath made, for he is adorned with the spirit of understanding and of counsel, the spirit of wisdom and might, the spirit of fear and love, the spirit of prudence and temperance, he is adorned with the spirit of charity and mercy, the spirit of justice and piety, the spirit of gentleness and patience, which he hath received from God three times more than he hath given to all his creatures. O blessed time, when he shall come to the world! Believe me that I have seen him and have done him reverence, even as every prophet hath seen him: seeing that of his spirit God giveth to them prophecy. And when I saw him my soul was filled with consolation, saying: "O Mohammed, God be with thee, and may he make me worthy to untie thy shoelatchet, for obtaining this I shall be a great prophet and holy one of God." '
 
remember where  you got your quote. would a chevy dealer try to sell you a ford?
 leland


-------------
love for all conquers all


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 January 2009 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by robin

"Abraham offered Ishmael for sacrifice."
 
You are not telling the Truth!!
 
No he did not:-
 
Genesis 22:1-2
Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. Accordingly he said to him: "Abraham!" to which he said: "Here I am!" 2 And he went on to say: "Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri´ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you."
 
Dear Robin,
you and the above quote seems to be inconsistant. It is silly to say that Abraham's first son was somehow not his son or that his son was born without he will of God. There is nothing that happens without the will of God.
Here is what logic and common sense tells us without being follower of anything. "your only son" is the key here. As I have mentioned before in another thread and you see its being pointed out here too is that if Abraham ever had his "only son" mentioned, its was his first son Ishmael. By the time Issac was born "your only son" will confuse Abraham and all os us as it did.
So according to the facts we see that if at any time Abraham was told to take his only son it would be before the birth of his second son Issac.
 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by robin

"Abraham offered Ishmael for sacrifice."
 
You are not telling the Truth!!
 
No he did not:-
 
Genesis 22:1-2
Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. Accordingly he said to him: "Abraham!" to which he said: "Here I am!" 2 And he went on to say: "Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri´ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you."
 
Dear Robin,
you and the above quote seems to be inconsistant. It is silly to say that Abraham's first son was somehow not his son or that his son was born without he will of God. There is nothing that happens without the will of God.
Here is what logic and common sense tells us without being follower of anything. "your only son" is the key here. As I have mentioned before in another thread and you see its being pointed out here too is that if Abraham ever had his "only son" mentioned, its was his first son Ishmael. By the time Issac was born "your only son" will confuse Abraham and all os us as it did.
So according to the facts we see that if at any time Abraham was told to take his only son it would be before the birth of his second son Issac.
 
Hasan
 
What matters is what God says not humans!


Posted By: truthfull
Date Posted: 09 May 2014 at 2:49pm
Wrong

In christianity ve judaism

Both Isaac and ishmael

Read genesis 17

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


• if Isaac is last prophet

So why did paul claim he is prophet?

As we know he claimed he is prophet

Even language change

From hebrew to arabic

Hebrew Abram turn to Arabic. Abraham


Genesis 17

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.


Above. All

Name prophet muhammad in bible
Ve torah

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wm3sZfPwv1g


Top jew scholar say islam true

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw5SHH9eQb4

Jews professor confirm all prophets muslim

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mlLZKUuc2jkhttp://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mlLZKUuc2jk


Jesus confirmed. He is prophet in bible

Luke 13:31

Jesus replied :


33 But I must go on my way today, tomorrow, and the next day. A prophet of God cannot be killed outside of Jerusalem.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 13:31-35


•even people prove it

Matthew 21:11 The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet ...







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