Print Page | Close Window

Does Islam need to evolve?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: General Islamic Matter
Forum Discription: Discuss Islamic matters/issues that not covered by other sub catagories
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25255
Printed Date: 19 April 2014 at 7:48am


Topic: Does Islam need to evolve?
Posted By: W.S.
Subject: Does Islam need to evolve?
Date Posted: 27 April 2013 at 2:10am
As you know, there are those who think that Islam needs to be reformed. What do you think of this?
Matt has already mentioned a number of things, for example the question of a Muslim woman's testimony being worth less than that of a Muslim man's. There's also the question of inheritance, and much else. Equal rights for men and women should be self-evident, yes?
 
It's a big question, I know, but do you think that Islam can be reformed at all? One things is certain: it's not the 7th century anymore.
 
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 8:37am
Surah Al Maidah ch 5 v 4-Allah says this is the day,I have choosen Islam as your religion and no addition should b done to your deen.Prophet Muhammad S.A.W(pbuh) says that every innovation is a misguidance and every misguidance will lead to hell.so,there is no question of evolution of Islam.In the sight of Allah everybody is equal irrespective of sex,colour,wealth,status.the only way a person is better than the other is the closeness to Allah I.e piouty,good deeds.this is clearly mentioned in Surah Al hujurat ch 49 v 13.as far as status of women is concerned,there R some aspects in which women are dominant than men and in some men are given preference but overall both are equal in the sight of Allah.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 10:46am
Islam is to testify that none has the right to be worship but God (the creator and sustainer of the heaven and earth), and that Muhammad is His Messenger and last prophet, the establishment of prayer, payment of zakat (charity), fasting in the month of Ramadan, and hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca), for those who are able. This is the religion of Islam.  What you have mentioned; inheritance, testimony, "and much else" are primarily issues of fiqh, that can, and do change with time, circumstance and place.  Indeed fiqh is fluid, dynamic, and by no means stuck in the 7th century.


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 29 April 2013 at 5:51am
Originally posted by NABA

Surah Al Maidah ch 5 v 4-Allah says this is the day,I have choosen Islam as your religion and no addition should b done to your deen.Prophet Muhammad S.A.W(pbuh) says that every innovation is a misguidance and every misguidance will lead to hell.so,there is no question of evolution of Islam.
 
That way you won't have to take responsibility and change the parts that need to be changed. How convenient!
Originally posted by NABA

In the sight of Allah everybody is equal irrespective of sex,colour,wealth,status.the only way a person is better than the other is the closeness to Allah I.e piouty,good deeds.this is clearly mentioned in Surah Al hujurat ch 49 v 13.
Apparently not when it comes to sex (as in man/woman). Just look at some of the misogynic verses.
 
Originally posted by NABA

as far as status of women is concerned,there R some aspects in which women are dominant than men and in some men are given preference but overall both are equal in the sight of Allah.
I think you mean to say that men are given preference in most, if not all, aspects. Obviously I'm not as versed in this subject as you are, but I'd like to share a couple of things that I read when I was reading/skimming through Islamic Ethics, by al-Ghazali a while ago. Firstly, something that made me laugh: "If he is ugly to look at she must not hate him", on how a woman should be a good wife. She must obey her husband and so on. Secondly, when a man talks to his wife he must lower himself to her intelligence and should also try to be funny to make her happy, but not too much or she'll think he's lax and take advantage of him. It says something about the view of women.
 
Equal in the sight of Allah? I think that's just a fancy way of getting away with it.
 
Originally posted by abuayisha

Islam is to testify that none has the right to be worship but God (the creator and sustainer of the heaven and earth), and that Muhammad is His Messenger and last prophet, the establishment of prayer, payment of zakat (charity), fasting in the month of Ramadan, and hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca), for those who are able. This is the religion of Islam.
That seems to be the general notion. But for many Muslims it is much more that, isn't it? Like, following "rules" or guidelines that are in the Quran and Sunnah? A wife having to ask her husband's permission to work outside of the home, for example.  
 
Originally posted by abuayisha

What you have mentioned; inheritance, testimony, "and much else" are primarily issues of fiqh, that can, and do change with time, circumstance and place.  Indeed fiqh is fluid, dynamic, and by no means stuck in the 7th century.
 
What has changed? Have lewd men been confined to their houses and cut off from their inheritance? Have men been stoned to death for having been raped?


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 30 April 2013 at 8:58am
you don't have to read Islamic ethics written by so and so,if you really want to understand Islam read Qur'an and hadeeth(sayings and life of prophet).in Surah An Nisa ch 4 v 4-A husband must give an amount(Meher) to his wife.this is totally opposite to the trend we follow today.unfortunately people follow so called rituals of dowry system and doesn't know about Qur'an that's y questions about status of women is arrived.therefore don't believe in others do enquiry from right sources.ones upon a time there was a young girl who complained to the prophet that here parents had fixed her marriage without her will.prophet there itself nullified that marriage.then prophet also said that don't stop women from visiting mosque even in the night.today we observe in most places women are not allowed in mosque.in Qur'an there is no verse which prohibits women from visiting mosque.Allah says that never approach your wife when she is in her periods(Surah Al Baqarah ch 2 v 222).so contents above are truly in favour of women.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 30 April 2013 at 10:53pm
Perhaps you are confusing cultural practices with Islam, as exemplified in your rhetorical questions. Unless, of course, you can site textual evidence that a woman raped is to be stoned to death according to Islamic law. This religion of Islam, when understood properly, is completely current and relevant, although still firmly rooted in its early generation. How could it be otherwise, when it is the final revelation to mankind?


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 01 May 2013 at 5:57am

Originally posted by NABA

you don't have to read Islamic ethics written by so and so,if you really want to understand Islam read Qur'an and hadeeth(sayings and life of prophet).in Surah An Nisa ch 4 v 4-A husband must give an amount(Meher) to his wife.this is totally opposite to the trend we follow today.unfortunately people follow so called rituals of dowry system and doesn't know about Qur'an that's y questions about status of women is arrived.therefore don't believe in others do enquiry from right sources.

 
I know about mahr and it has nothing to do with my questions about the status of women. I know, in fact, that in some places the mahr is expected to be so ridiculously high, that prospective husbands have to go abroad and work for years to save up for the mahr. The mahr might be the one thing that's in favour of women.
 
Originally posted by NABA

ones upon a time there was a young girl who complained to the prophet that here parents had fixed her marriage without her will.prophet there itself nullified that marriage.then prophet also said that don't stop women from visiting mosque even in the night.today we observe in most places women are not allowed in mosque.in Qur'an there is no verse which prohibits women from visiting mosque.
 
So women may visit the mosque anytime they want. What about working outside of the home? Or if they wish to travel somewhere? It says in the Quran that lewd women should be confined to their houses and cut off from their inheritance; what about lewd men? And what about 4:34 that says you can beat your wife? She doesn't even have to do anything "rebellious"; you only have think that she will do something like that. Like Manji put it: "His insecurities becomes her problem." Of course, most husbands don't mistreat their wifes, but according to the Quran, they could if they wanted to. The same verse also says that men are better than women. Should this verse be omitted?  
 
Islam can be portrayed as a tolerant, just and nice religion. But it can also be portrayed as the opposite; it depends on which verses and hadiths you choose to convey.

Originally posted by NABA

Allah says that never approach your wife when she is in her periods(Surah Al Baqarah ch 2 v 222).so contents above are truly in favour of women.

I wouldn't say that not having intercourse with your wife when she's having her period is especially in favour of women, because you wouldn't do that anyway. It's common sense. And what about the rest of the month when she's not having her period? Then her husband may (or should I say should?) be with her whenever he wants. She can't say no, basically. Is that in her favour?

Originally posted by abuayisha

Perhaps you are confusing cultural practices with Islam, as exemplified in your rhetorical questions. Unless, of course, you can site textual evidence that a woman raped is to be stoned to death according to Islamic law. This religion of Islam, when understood properly, is completely current and relevant, although still firmly rooted in its early generation. How could it be otherwise, when it is the final revelation to mankind?

But is Islam ever understood properly? It seems that whenever Islam dominates a society, there is always oppression and violations of human rights. The world is not what it was in the 7th century; people are more enlightened today (although sometimes I wonder), and with enlightenment comes demands, such as the demand for freedom of speech. Religion needs to change also or it becomes obsolete. Nobody's forcing you to take the "final revelation to mankind"-part literally.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 11:14am
In ch 4 v 34-yes it is written that husband can beat his wife but in such a way that there should not b any scar mark on her body and the need of beating is the last resort if a husband finds that his wife is not loyal,firstly he should stop talking to him,then if not then stop sharing bed and even after this she doesn't realise her mistake then the norm of beating comes.even in that the wrong meaning is taken of that verse in which men are known as kaiyaam for women,yes they are but in the financial sense not all aspects.Allah regards a woman as fortress of devil in several places,unfortunately people take double meaning of the verses and take them in cultural practices.if all people read Quran with translation then most of the problems will b solved.you know that how people gloom on birth of daughter.if U read Quran Allah clearly forbids even the gloomy expression on birth of daughter.this is mentioned in Surah Al Nahl ch 16 v 58.in Surah Al Takweeh ch 81 v 8-9-Allah will ask all the daughters who were killed due to female foeticides that for what fault they were killed on judgment day.therefore there is no fault at all in Islam its the people who had created this chaos.in Surah An Nisa ch 4 v 40-Allah is never unjust even in the least degree.Allahfiz


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 04 May 2013 at 2:43am
Originally posted by NABA

In ch 4 v 34-yes it is written that husband can beat his wife but in such a way that there should not b any scar mark on her body and the need of beating is the last resort if a husband finds that his wife is not loyal,firstly he should stop talking to him,then if not then stop sharing bed and even after this she doesn't realise her mistake then the norm of beating comes.
I know about those steps. Refuse to talk to her and then refuse to sleep with her, and if that doesn't bring her back into a state of submission and obedience, beat her. In order words, act like a psycho towards her. Btw, the verse in question doesn't say anything about not leaving any marks on her body. What would her "mistake" be, anyway? Speaking her mind?
 
Originally posted by NABA

even in that the wrong meaning is taken of that verse in which men are known as kaiyaam for women,yes they are but in the financial sense not all aspects.
 
Then maybe the Quran needs to clarify that.
 
Originally posted by NABA

Allah regards a woman as fortress of devil in several places,unfortunately people take double meaning of the verses and take them in cultural practices.
 
And that would mean that they are morally weak?
Originally posted by NABA

if all people read Quran with translation then most of the problems. will b solved.
 
Even problems within a marriage? You don't solve problems by not talking about them. Communication is the key, haven't you heard? If your wife is being "rebellious" and you use the psycho treatment to shut her up, it could, in the long run, be damaging to her mental health and possibly to yours, too.
 
Originally posted by NABA

you know that how people gloom on birth of daughter.if U read Quran Allah clearly forbids even the gloomy expression on birth of daughter.this is mentioned in Surah Al Nahl ch 16 v 58.
I know they do that in some cultures, yes.
 
Originally posted by NABA

in Surah Al Takweeh ch 81 v 8-9-Allah will ask all the daughters who were killed due to female foeticides that for what fault they were killed on judgment day.
God will ask foetuses why they were killed? And why would he do that if he knows everything? (rhetorical questions)
 
Originally posted by NABA

therefore there is no fault at all in Islam its the people who had created this chaos.in Surah An Nisa ch 4 v 40-Allah is never unjust even in the least degree.Allahfiz
If that's the case then perhaps Islam isn't fit for human beings. Saying that there is no fault at all in Islam is a dangerous road, because it leads to dogma. However, if you admit that Islam isn't completely flawless, then you can fix those flaws.
 
Btw, you didn't answer my other questions, and I'm assuming it's because you can't.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 05 May 2013 at 8:49am
As far as other questions R concerned U asked what about approaching ur wives when they are not  in periods,well a husband can approach his wife whenever he wants,it is not weird,but that depends upon the nature of husband whether he is understanding or not,not all humans R same.once upon a time prophet said to sahabas-if U do sexual intercourse with ur wife its a charity,sahabas wonder how,then prophet said since U R not doing adultery hence its a charity.regarding Allah despite knowing everything still ask foetuses,seems like U read Qur'an only to criticize it,well doesn't matter,in the next verse I.e ch 81 v 10-Allah will make pages public means he will show our record in front of everybody when all the people will rise from dead,and gathered in the hereafter.regarding about damaging mental health,well brother since we were discussing the steps in dealing with rebellious wives,most of them realise there mistakes in steps 1 n 2.option of beating is the last and rare resort.it depends on nature of individual,some are understanding and some are stubborn.


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 06 May 2013 at 2:24am
Originally posted by NABA

As far as other questions R concerned U asked what about approaching ur wives when they are not  in periods,well a husband can approach his wife whenever he wants,it is not weird,
 
In a sense, I would love to have a wife that I could be with whenever I wanted. But looking at it objectively, you realize how wrong that would be; you don't own your wife's body just because she's your wife. She is the sole owner of her body.
Originally posted by NABA

but that depends upon the nature of husband whether he is understanding or not,not all humans R same.
 
Which is why that verse should be omitted. Some men do mistreat their wifes. So thanks for proving my point!
Originally posted by NABA

once upon a time prophet said to sahabas-if U do sexual intercourse with ur wife its a charity,sahabas wonder how,then prophet said since U R not doing adultery hence its a charity.
 
Seems to me like a poor attempt at justifying treating your wife like a sex object. How could that ever be charity? The Prophet says it is! Well, then! BadaBing BadaBoom!
 
Originally posted by NABA

regarding Allah despite knowing everything still ask foetuses,seems like U read Qur'an only to criticize it,well doesn't matter,
It's hard not to get caught when it comes to some verses. I checked out that site that Matt posted: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm - http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm  
 
Originally posted by NABA

in the next verse I.e ch 81 v 10-Allah will make pages public means he will show our record in front of everybody when all the people will rise from dead,and gathered in the hereafter.
 
Going through everybody's record ought to take a while. See what I'm saying?
 
Originally posted by NABA

regarding about damaging mental health,well brother since we were discussing the steps in dealing with rebellious wives,most of them realise there mistakes in steps 1 n 2.option of beating is the last and rare resort.it depends on nature of individual,some are understanding and some are stubborn.
 
The third step is called domestic abuse and it's a crime that can be traumatic to the victim, but I didn't refer only to the third step. I think that step 1 and 2 can have very negative effects on her and on the marriage as a whole, especially the first step. Not talking about problems is a common strategy among couples, I think, but it's not a good strategy because it doesn't make the problem go away. Perhaps in the short run it will, but long-term it'll only get worse. If she can't speak her mind and/or you refuse to listen and talk to her for too long, she'll have to keep everything bottled up inside and that's what can be damaging. She may not become mentally ill but she might very well become that unhappy, bitter hag that nobody finds pleasant, when she could've been happy and a blossoming flower still, if only you would have listened to her and respected her.
 
I wish you would put your Quran aside for just a moment and think for yourself instead.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 07 May 2013 at 9:05am
if you are so much against Islam then y male Islam is written below your name,if you are not agreeing with Allah and prophet that's your problem not mine.Allah has led instructions to run our life and Allah has given us free will to follow it or not.that's y I said depending upon nature,if a person daily reads Qur'an the most important virtue he develops is patience,automatically the problem will b solved because after that even if wife does not want sex for whole life,even the husband will not force her.because a person cannot b called a Muslim if he is not virtuous.the words u spoke about owning wife's body etc all those non sense.prophet also said among you the best believer is one who is good to his family members especially wife,whatever prophet says it is in direct relation with verses of Qur'an,the verse of charity was to realise the importance of verse of Surah Al Israa ch 17 v 32 to mankind in which Allah forbids adultery,the saying of prophet in this post is in relation with Surah Al tehrim ch 6 v 66,by this it means that there is no harm to fulfill your sexual needs with your own wife.most educated people have common sense when to approach when not to approach.as not all men are abusive,similarly not all women are innocent.u R not allien to the present scenario that pre-mariatal sex,adultery are becoming common.i ask you what would you do when  this situation comes in front of you,would u greet her happily.moreover don't try to estimate power of Allah,Allah can go through record of whole mankind within a microsecond.Surah Al Ikhlaas ch 112 verse 4-WA lamya ku lahu kuffuan ahad,meaning there is nothing like him.


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 6:48am
Originally posted by NABA

if you are so much against Islam then y male Islam is written below your name,if you are not agreeing with Allah and prophet that's your problem not mine.
 
I converted to Islam and according to Islam, once you're in you can't get out! Isn't that so? Seriously, I'm starting to lean more and more towards atheism or agnosticism. There may be a God and there may not be. No one knows. I thought that the more I learned about the Quran and hadiths, the clearer things would get. But it only gets weirder. And I'm not too fond the Quran's self-righteous and extremely judgemental tone. There are so many verses that say that the disbelievers who deny "the Truth" are losers who will be punished in Hell. You can't know that there is a God; there is no such "Truth"; however, you may have religious faith and believe in God. If you know there is a God, that's means you're either completely brainswashed, or psychotic. And in Islam you have to be certain.
 
Originally posted by NABA

Allah has led instructions to run our life and Allah has given us free will to follow it or not.that's y I said depending upon nature,if a person daily reads Qur'an the most important virtue he develops is patience,automatically the problem will b solved because after that even if wife does not want sex for whole life,even the husband will not force her.
The problem won't automatically be solved, not necessarily, because it's not that simple. We're complex creatures. It has to do with your genes and your upbringing, your schooling and whatnot, not just whether you've reading the Quran or not. Reading the Quran may make you more patient but maybe you happen to have a great libido, or traces of ADHD, for example.
 
Originally posted by NABA

because a person cannot b called a Muslim if he is not virtuous.
 
Then there are many Muslims that can't be called Muslims. It's not uncommon for male Muslims to have non-Muslim girlfriends.
 
Originally posted by NABA

the words u spoke about owning wife's body etc all those non sense.prophet also said among you the best believer is one who is good to his family members especially wife,whatever prophet says it is in direct relation with verses of Qur'an,the verse of charity was to realise the importance of verse of Surah Al Israa ch 17 v 32 to mankind in which Allah forbids adultery,the saying of prophet in this post is in relation with Surah Al tehrim ch 6 v 66,by this it means that there is no harm to fulfill your sexual needs with your own wife.most educated people have common sense when to approach when not to approach.as not all men are abusive,similarly not all women are innocent.
 
That still doesn't make it charity; it only makes it a non-adulterous act. If your wife doesn't want to for whatever reason, it's the complete opposite of charity. In a sense, your wife does not own her own body if you have access to it whenever you want, even when she doesn't want to.
 
Originally posted by NABA

u R not allien to the present scenario that pre-mariatal sex,adultery are becoming common.i ask you what would you do when  this situation comes in front of you,would u greet her happily.
I don't know about India, but here pre-marital sex is the norm and adultery is not unheard-of, unfortunately. About your question, it would depend on the situation and on who she was.  
 
Originally posted by NABA

moreover don't try to estimate power of Allah,Allah can go through record of whole mankind within a microsecond.Surah Al Ikhlaas ch 112 verse 4-WA lamya ku lahu kuffuan ahad,meaning there is nothing like him.
 
No, I meant that it would take an absurdly long time for everybody else - who are gathered there - to go through all those records once they're shown.
 
Now, about the question of a woman's testimony beings worth only half of that of a man.
 
The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."
 
Uhm... right. This is not applicable today. Would you agree?
 
About the view of women, here's another hadith:
 
"If I were to order someone to prostrate before other than God, I would have commanded woman to prostrate before her husband. If a husband tells his wife to keep carrying a load of stones from that red mountain to that black mountain, she must obey him whole heartedly."
 
Men and women are different, generally speaking. Men are often better than women at certain things, and women are often better than men at certain things. Also, I think that a lot of women like their husbands to be a little bossy. But to expect your wife to obey your every command like a well-trained dog? That's not cool.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 09 May 2013 at 9:13am

we all learnt big bang theory in schools about formation of whole universe,it was discovered by scientists in early 1900's,Allah mentioned it clearly in Surah Al Anbya ch 21 v 30,then there are layers of waves within the sea,this fact was also discovered in between 1800-1900's.Allah mentioned this in Surah An Noor ch 24 v 40-when Allah compares the nature of disbeliever with the fact mentioned above,1400 years ago in Qur'an.how it is possible then??similarly in Surah An Nisa ch 4 v 56-Allah says that we will give new layers of skin to evil ones everytime when they are burnt to feel pain in hereafter indicating skin as sense organ.this fact was also discovered by scientists in 1800's.there are many things in Qur'an to prove existence of Allah.for a person to b a Muslim it is not necessary to have Arabic name or belonging to Muslim family,a person becomes a Muslim when he follows Qur'an.and i always prefer Qur'an over Hadeeth.talking about genes once again the question comes about individual's nature,as I said human beings are given free will to obey Allah's commands or not.that's the difference between human beings and angels,angels don't have free will,they had to follow Allah's commands.so don't blame Islam blame the human beings




Print Page | Close Window