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Pope washes feet of Muslim prisoner

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Category: General
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Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25074
Printed Date: 02 September 2014 at 3:21pm


Topic: Pope washes feet of Muslim prisoner
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: Pope washes feet of Muslim prisoner
Date Posted: 29 March 2013 at 9:26am
Whereas most of his predecessors chose to do the Maundy Thursday Mass in the Vatican, this guy went instead to a youth prison. He washed the feet not of fellow priests, but of of young men and women who are behind bars for breaking the law, many if not most of whom probably grew up in poverty and experienced rejection and abuse. One of the inmates whose feet he washed is a Muslim woman.

In John 13:1-20, Jesus called upon His disciples to wash each others' feet. It is a sign of humility and a reminder that none of us are more important than the other. Jesus ate and spent time with people most of His society rejected and discarded. He died on the cross for sinners... both those of us who know we are sinners and those who try to fool ourselves into believing we are otherwise.

Of course, Pope Francis is not Jesus. No human being or angel can even come close to being Christ... since unlike us, He is God in the flesh.

However, we can and are called to follow Him.

By washing this woman's feet, the Pope not only reminds us that we are called to be humble, but also took a stance against Islamophobia. There are tragically some 'christians' enjoy hating on Muslims- sometimes attacking them verbally and sometimes even worse. Muslims have experienced a lot of hatred in both Europe and North America. To be fair, some Muslims also treat non-Muslims the same way. Not that this makes hatred of Muslims... or of anyone else... justified.

We are called to love our Muslim neighbours... both our friends and our enemies. We are to treat them with love and humility, not arrogance and hatred.

Jesus died for us all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9960168/Pope-washes-feet-of-young-Muslim-woman-prisoner-in-unprecedented-twist-on-Maundy-Thursday.html

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pope-washes-feet-young-detainees-ritual-18831995#.UVW94Tee18x




Replies:
Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 31 March 2013 at 4:27am
Assalamo Alaik TG,

The man is washing, stroking, caressing, drying and kissing the feet of young women. It seems it's a habit he's been fond of for quite a while. And now to a "muslim" young lady too. What a coincidence.

Say, "O disbelievers, ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:1 - 1 ) I do not worship what you worship. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:2 - 2 ) Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:3 - 3 ) Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:4 - 4 ) Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:5 - 5 ) For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:6 - 6 )








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الله


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 31 March 2013 at 11:34am
Rational your point is well taken, however given the ritual here, and the age of the Pope, I hardly think "stroking", "caressing", and "kissing the feet of young women" by implication, is fair - given the context.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 31 March 2013 at 12:16pm
That's your opinion, I think it is fair, given the context.

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الله


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 01 April 2013 at 4:27am
For newly starter that was a good start signal that he is not publicity seeking confrontationist. Also since he is burdened with badly damaged ship - as a captain he is quick to find ways to slowdown the problem if not to remedy the situation altogether. It was signal for the priests under him to start roll the sleeves up starting with the downtrodden. As the hadith and the NT stated: When you visited them you visited God, when you feed them you feed God.

I only wish him good thing in doing his duty.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 April 2013 at 5:31am
Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo Alaik TG,

The man is washing, stroking, caressing, drying and kissing the feet of young women. It seems it's a habit he's been fond of for quite a while. And now to a "muslim" young lady too. What a coincidence.

Say, "O disbelievers, ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:1 - 1 ) I do not worship what you worship. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:2 - 2 ) Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:3 - 3 ) Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:4 - 4 ) Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:5 - 5 ) For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/109:6 - 6 )



Wa alaikum, Rational.

Most of the inmates were men, so your point is moot.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 April 2013 at 5:32am
Originally posted by nothing

For newly starter that was a good start signal that he is not publicity seeking confrontationist. Also since he is burdened with badly damaged ship - as a captain he is quick to find ways to slowdown the problem if not to remedy the situation altogether. It was signal for the priests under him to start roll the sleeves up starting with the downtrodden. As the hadith and the NT stated: When you visited them you visited God, when you feed them you feed God.

I only wish him good thing in doing his duty.

Salaam Alaikum nothing and abuayisha,

Thanks for your responses, and for understanding what he was trying to do.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 01 April 2013 at 5:37am
Originally posted by nothing

As the hadith and the NT stated: When you visited them you visited God, when you feed them you feed God.

Can you tell me what hadith this is please?

Originally posted by nothing

I only wish him good thing in doing his duty.

I only wish they stop the "soap opera". And I only wish he keeps his hands (and lips) away from the feet of young women.



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الله


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 01 April 2013 at 7:15am
Originally posted by TG12345

Most of the inmates were men, so your point is moot.

TG, it's not a matter of numbers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9960168/Pope-washes-feet-of-young-Muslim-woman-prisoner-in-unprecedented-twist-on-Maundy-Thursday.html - Pope washes feet of young Muslim woman prisoner in unprecedented twist on Maundy Thursday
"While popes have for centuries washed the feet of the faithful on the day before Good Friday, never before had a pontiff washed the feet of a woman... Catholic traditionalists are likely to be riled by the inclusion of women in the ceremony because of the belief that all of Jesus’ disciples were male."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/03/28/pope-frances-washes-feet/2028595/ - Pope Francis washes feet of young detainees in ritual
"Two of the 12 were young women, an unusual choice... ROME (AP) — Pope Francis washed and kissed the feet of a dozen inmates at a juvenile detention center in a Holy Thursday ritual that he celebrated for years as archbishop and is continuing now that he is pope. Two of the 12 were young women, a remarkable choice given that the rite re-enacts Jesus' washing of the feet of his male disciples."

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-washes-womens-feet-break-church-law-002454620.html - Pope washes women's feet in break with church law
"No pope has ever washed the feet of a woman before, and Francis' gesture sparked a debate among some conservatives and liturgical purists, who lamented he had set a "questionable example." Liberals welcomed the move as a sign of greater inclusiveness in the church... He often involved women. Photographs show him washing the feet of a woman holding her newborn child in her arms."

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/28/17502522-pope-washes-feet-of-young-detainees-in-holy-thursday-ritual?lite - Pope washes feet of young detainees in Holy Thursday ritual
"The group of 12 young people who had their feet washed and kissed by the pope included two young women - the first time a pope included females in the rite. The ceremony has traditionally been limited to men, since all of Jesus' apostles were men."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-francis-female-foot-wash-upsets-traditionalists-article-1.1303260 - Pope Francis' female foot-wash outrages traditionalists










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الله


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 April 2013 at 3:57pm
I wonder how the woman came to be included in the foot washing, along with the men.
I understand how it seems strange for a man like the Pope to do this...
but the things that Jesus did also appeared strange to people.  Jesus washed the feet of His disciples in demonstration of what was expected of them... humility.
We may remember that it was objected to when a woman of ill repute washed the feet of Jesus, but Jesus did not reject her but blessed her for her humbleness and beauty of spirit... a thing not offered by any other in the room at that time.

50 And He said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.  (the Gospel of Luke, chapter 7)

I think the Pope is seeking to revive the spirit shown to us by Christ... the spirit which He wanted us to emulate.
People will naturally be uncomfortable with this... this model of change.


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 April 2013 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

Most of the inmates were men, so your point is moot.

TG, it's not a matter of numbers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9960168/Pope-washes-feet-of-young-Muslim-woman-prisoner-in-unprecedented-twist-on-Maundy-Thursday.html - Pope washes feet of young Muslim woman prisoner in unprecedented twist on Maundy Thursday
"While popes have for centuries washed the feet of the faithful on the day before Good Friday, never before had a pontiff washed the feet of a woman... Catholic traditionalists are likely to be riled by the inclusion of women in the ceremony because of the belief that all of Jesus’ disciples were male."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/03/28/pope-frances-washes-feet/2028595/ - Pope Francis washes feet of young detainees in ritual
"Two of the 12 were young women, an unusual choice... ROME (AP) — Pope Francis washed and kissed the feet of a dozen inmates at a juvenile detention center in a Holy Thursday ritual that he celebrated for years as archbishop and is continuing now that he is pope. Two of the 12 were young women, a remarkable choice given that the rite re-enacts Jesus' washing of the feet of his male disciples."

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-washes-womens-feet-break-church-law-002454620.html - Pope washes women's feet in break with church law
"No pope has ever washed the feet of a woman before, and Francis' gesture sparked a debate among some conservatives and liturgical purists, who lamented he had set a "questionable example." Liberals welcomed the move as a sign of greater inclusiveness in the church... He often involved women. Photographs show him washing the feet of a woman holding her newborn child in her arms."

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/28/17502522-pope-washes-feet-of-young-detainees-in-holy-thursday-ritual?lite - Pope washes feet of young detainees in Holy Thursday ritual
"The group of 12 young people who had their feet washed and kissed by the pope included two young women - the first time a pope included females in the rite. The ceremony has traditionally been limited to men, since all of Jesus' apostles were men."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-francis-female-foot-wash-upsets-traditionalists-article-1.1303260 - Pope Francis' female foot-wash outrages traditionalists










Washing someone's feet is a show of humility. It shows you are willing to serve the other person, to care and watch out for him. It shows that your status does not make you better than another person.

Jesus instructed His disciples to wash each others' feet, to show that one is not better than another, to show that they are all equal.

In the Catholic church, the Pope is in the highest position of power. I am not Catholic and I do not believe there should be such a hierarchy, but that's how they do things.

For the Pope to wash other people's feet is a symbolic gesture showing that he is no better than anyone else, and that those who are in high positions of power are expected to serve those below them.

The people whose feet he washed are prisoners... people who are often looked down on in society. A lot of them have committed crimes, been involved in the sex trade, have been abused. Many have discarded them. As you may or may not know, in Europe racism is a very real problem (not unlike Canada or US or Saudi Arabia or Israel) and the prisoners who are immigrants or Muslim or Roma face also a racial stigma.

The Pope washing their feet I think also was meant to demonstrate that Christians are called to love and serve those who society hates.


BTW why is this even a problem for you? Why would it bother you how Christians conduct their religious rituals?


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 12:15am
To look for and find something sordid in this ritual reveals a lot more about the author than was presumably intended.

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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by TG12345

BTW why is this even a problem for you? Why would it bother you how Christians conduct their religious rituals?

Because I care about people, non muslims and muslims. Because I hate it when people are being lied to. Because they involved a "muslim" woman (even though i don't belive any of it). Because I don't agree with public in your face team effort feet washing. Because I have a right to an opinion just like you and everyone else. I could ask you the same question because you said that you're not a catholic so why do you care.

Why involve woman?  That's what I'm talking about. Would Jesus (alaihi assalam) wash the feet of daughters of the disciples?  Would he allow that they wash the feet of each others daughters? No of course not. Men do not wash the feet of other woman. This man (pope man) is no different.

I wonder if this man washes the feet of people his age.



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الله


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by nospam001

To look for and find something sordid in this ritual reveals a lot more about the author than was presumably intended.

Assalam Alaik nospam, what does it reveal and who is this author? Get to the point ;)


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الله


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

I wonder how the woman came to be included in the foot washing, along with the men.... I think the Pope is seeking to revive the spirit shown to us by Christ... the spirit which He wanted us to emulate. People will naturally be uncomfortable with this... this model of change.

I see where you're coming from.... Rules are meant to be broken right?


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الله


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 3:03pm
Personally, I would never allow myself to put my foot in someones face like that. That's just pride and arrogance. That's degrading someone else beyond anything, and in public. So while the pope man is showing a gesture of humility, those getting their feet washed are showing arrogance and egotism x 100. Maybe they felt good about it. But is this right? What example are they showing? That's why I'm sure most people wouldn't allow to put their feet in the face of another because humility has to be both ways. And that's why I believe this drama piece is worthless. If the pope man really wanted to show that he is on the same level then he and his crew should all dress like those normal people and focus on spending less on themselves. That would be a good place to start, not the feet.



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الله


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart

I wonder how the woman came to be included in the foot washing, along with the men.... I think the Pope is seeking to revive the spirit shown to us by Christ... the spirit which He wanted us to emulate. People will naturally be uncomfortable with this... this model of change.

I see where you're coming from.... Rules are meant to be broken right?

Huh?


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Rational

Personally, I would never allow myself to put my foot in someones face like that. That's just pride and arrogance. That's degrading someone else beyond anything, and in public. So while the pope man is showing a gesture of humility, those getting their feet washed are showing arrogance and egotism x 100. Maybe they felt good about it. But is this right? What example are they showing? That's why I'm sure most people wouldn't allow to put their feet in the face of another because humility has to be both ways. And that's why I believe this drama piece is worthless. If the pope man really wanted to show that he is on the same level then he and his crew should all dress like those normal people and focus on spending less on themselves. That would be a good place to start, not the feet.

Greetings Rational,

I guess you have not heard then, that this Pope has chosen not to have new robes made specially for himself.  He chooses not to live in the 'Papal palace', but rather in the 'Vatican guest house' which he was residing in before being named Pope.  He chooses to walk rather than be transported in expensive vehicles.
This Pope is truly attempting to provide the very example which you ask for.

Also, I actually believe it takes a great deal of humility to allow another to wash ones feet.  Think of it... would you feel comfortable, or would it force you to get outside of your comfort zone to allow someone to wash your feet?  I believe it would humble me.

Salaam,
CH




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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Rational

what does it reveal and who is this author? Get to the point ;)
Psychoanalysts call it 'projection' and 'reaction-formation'. It fits a familiar stereotype where preachers froth endlessly about sex and sin, all the while living a secret double life. UK Cardinal Keith O'Brien is an especially high-profile example, as were the televangelists Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker. Who knows? Maybe Muslims are immune. ;-)

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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

BTW why is this even a problem for you? Why would it bother you how Christians conduct their religious rituals?

Because I care about people, non muslims and muslims. Because I hate it when people are being lied to. Because they involved a "muslim" woman (even though i don't belive any of it). Because I don't agree with public in your face team effort feet washing. Because I have a right to an opinion just like you and everyone else. I could ask you the same question because you said that you're not a catholic so why do you care.

Why involve woman?  That's what I'm talking about. Would Jesus (alaihi assalam) wash the feet of daughters of the disciples?  Would he allow that they wash the feet of each others daughters? No of course not. Men do not wash the feet of other woman. This man (pope man) is no different.

I wonder if this man washes the feet of people his age.



Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

Firstly, I owe you an apology for asking why this is an issue for you. I have questioned and will continue to question things in Islam and that are done by Muslims, and I would not react positively to someone telling me that since I am not Muslim, it is not my business. So I had no justification in saying that to you.

Would Jesus wash the feet of the daughters of His disciples? I don't see why not. He came into the home of a dead girl and brought her back to life. He stopped the stoning to death of an adulteress. He allowed a woman who was living in sin to put perfume on His feet and cry over them.

Did He wash the feet of women? No. But He did visit them and protect them, and earned the ire of the pharisees by letting a woman wash His feet and kiss them.

So I don't think that the Pope washing the feet of the women was inappropriate. This is probably something we are going to disagree on, and that's OK.

God bless.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Rational

what does it reveal and who is this author? Get to the point ;)
Psychoanalysts call it 'projection' and 'reaction-formation'. It fits a familiar stereotype where preachers froth endlessly about sex and sin, all the while living a secret double life. UK Cardinal Keith O'Brien is an especially high-profile example, as were the televangelists Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker. Who knows? Maybe Muslims are immune. ;-)

Now I am confused also. What are you trying to say in regards to Rational's comments?


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 02 April 2013 at 11:36pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Now I am confused also. What are you trying to say in regards to Rational's comments?
Fair enough. It's pretty confusing for me too, defending a pope - especially given my earlier posts about abuse in the Catholic Church.

On reflection, I'm guessing that Rational was only seeking to parody the kind of sleazy innuendo that is often used against Mohammed().

I admit, I was fooled. For a while I thought he was a repressed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_fetishism - podophile . Boom-tish! Clown


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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 03 April 2013 at 2:39am
TG12345
I think many Muslims around the world get the feet washing ritual and the humility it represents. I also think this Pope performed the ceremony with its original intent. Let us hope and pray that solid acts of peace and justice (on both sides) follow these symbolic gestures.

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Respectfully
aka2x2


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 21 April 2013 at 3:23am
In general, I'm very critical of the entire Vatican and Vatican system. But I get this feeling that the new Pope is an improvement over the previous one.

Peace among believers of all religions should be priority number one in the 21st century. Washing the feet of a Muslim is a great gesture.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 21 April 2013 at 6:10am
Great gesture you say? What, a public display of washing the feet of a "muslim" infront of 300 witnesses and 30 cameras ready to be streamed to every home world wide? Uhhh, what a pope man this is! He really cares doesn't he! Uhhh look at him washing the feet of those people... Uhhhh...


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الله


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 April 2013 at 9:19am
"Peace among believers of all religions should be priority number one in the 21st century."

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 24 April 2013 at 7:01am
I'm puzzled, Rational. Do you prefer a pope washing Christian feet only?


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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 24 April 2013 at 7:02am
Originally posted by Caringheart

"Peace among believers of all religions should be priority number one in the 21st century."


Amen & Ameen to that, Caringheart!

Tongue


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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 24 April 2013 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

I'm puzzled, Rational. Do you prefer a pope washing Christian feet only?

I'm puzzled you came to this assumption. Even though I clearly stated several times that the main issue I have is the abnormal fact of him including young women in this feet rubbing session. Call me old fashioned, but it's not something I'd allow happen to my daughter, and so I don't like seeing it done to other daughters.

Many muslims would commend the pope for doing this. but ask them, would they allow the pope to wash the feet of their daughters? Ofcourse they wouldn't. But as long as it's not their daughters it's fine, the pope is doing a good thing. Sorry, that's not right. I don't like seeing it being done for christian or muslim daughters.

I would prefer it if the pope man would not wash anyones feet in a public gathering display with cameras recording and having everything staged in that manner. Having women involved in this washing business goes against the christian tradition. But more importantly, I would prefer it if the pope man would not "wash" the feet of any young women.

I hope that clears things up for you.


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الله


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 25 April 2013 at 5:00pm

Hi Rational

I think I understand where you're coming from. According to Islam, any person who tempts another (even passively and unwittingly) is more guilty than the one who responds impulsively according to his or her God-given urges. So by washing a young woman's feet in public the pope is forcing sexual guilt upon her, assuming that someone (anyone) might be aroused by the sight of her naked foot.

Outside of Islam there is no such excuse for inappropriate behaviour. That is, any sane adult who gives in to temptation would be entirely accountable for their own actions.



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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 April 2013 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by nospam001

Hi Rational

I think I understand where you're coming from. According to Islam, any person who tempts another (even passively and unwittingly) is more guilty than the one who responds impulsively according to his or her God-given urges. So by washing a young woman's feet in public the pope is forcing sexual guilt upon her, assuming that someone (anyone) might be aroused by the sight of her naked foot.

Outside of Islam there is no such excuse for inappropriate behaviour. That is, any sane adult who gives in to temptation would be entirely accountable for their own actions.

Hi nospam,

I have a different take on this.
I believe rational sees foot washing as an act of intimacy, which I agree, it rather is (I would feel uncomfortable having a strange man wash my feet)...
and this act of intimacy between a male and a female in islam is unacceptable.
Which, as I think about it, seems odd since everything sexual in islam is treated pretty clinical according to what I read earlier.

"Muslim and Catholic sexual morality are poles apart. In Catholicism, the ideal is to remain completely celibate. In Islam, that is severely condemned. In Catholicism, divorce is a sin, while it is allowed in Islam, and it is also permitted to have temporary sexual partners.
In Catholicsm polygamy is a sin, while it was something practiced by the Prophet %28pbuh%29 and the Imams %28as%29. In Catholicism, the main purpose of sexual activity is procreation, and even between husband and wife, stepping outside of that is sinful. Meanwhile, in Islam there are no such restrictions. Sex for it's own sake is seen as good. There are many ahadith on the practice of withdrawal, which would be seen as sinful by Catholicism."

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 26 April 2013 at 2:27am

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have a different take on this.
I believe rational sees foot washing as an act of intimacy, which I agree, it rather is (I would feel uncomfortable having a strange man wash my feet)...
and this act of intimacy between a male and a female in islam is unacceptable.
Good point. So how does the woman's age make a difference? (Given that she is not a child.)
Originally posted by Rational

...the main issue I have is the abnormal fact of him including young women in this feet rubbing session. Call me old fashioned, but it's not something I'd allow happen to my daughter, and so I don't like seeing it done to other daughters...But more importantly, I would prefer it if the pope man would not "wash" the feet of any young women.



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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 26 April 2013 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Hi nospam,
I have a different take on this.
I believe rational sees foot washing as an act of intimacy, which I agree, it rather is (I would feel uncomfortable having a strange man wash my feet)...
and this act of intimacy between a male and a female in islam is unacceptable.

We are tought as muslims that it is not permissible for a man to touch a women who is not permissible for him or who is not one of his mahrams. So I'm going by my beliefs and teachings.

Originally posted by Caringheart

In Catholicism, the ideal is to remain completely celibate.

Do you believe that it's a good thing if men decide to become celibate? What would happen if all men decide to remain unmarried?

Originally posted by Caringheart

In Islam, that is severely condemned.

Severely condemned? Please show us where you got this from.

Originally posted by Caringheart

In Catholicism, divorce is a sin, while it is allowed in Islam, and it is also permitted to have temporary sexual partners.

Those are lies.

First of all, in islam, divorce should be the final resort. The hadith states that Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) dislikes divorce. But it is allowed, for good reasons.

The other thing I have to correct you on, it is NOT permitted to have temporary sexual partners. You probably got this from a shia website.

Shias have a habit of innovating things, they do as they wish, and so have made it permissible to marry for the sake of sexual pleasure, they call it "zawaj al mut'aa", which translates to "marriage for pleasure". So for shia, a couple can get married, do what they have to do and go their separate ways. Absolute shame. This is forbidden in Islam and there is nothing to support their disgraceful acts.


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الله


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 26 April 2013 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by nospam001

Good point. So how does the woman's age make a difference? (Given that she is not a child.)

You should ask the pope man this question since it seems he has a liking for youngsters, otherwise we'd see a 50+ year old man or women in the mix. but we don't. Maybe a coincidence... Maybe. Either way in my beliefs and the christian tradition, he shouldn't be touching women feet old or young.

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الله


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 27 April 2013 at 7:54am
Rational wrote: The man is washing, stroking, caressing, drying and kissing the feet of young women
 
Rational, I find it interesting that you are obsessing over the Pope washing the feet of a woman, yet at the same time it is apparently acceptable to you that the Pope is washing the feet of men.
 
As a muslim, do you believe that it is perfectly acceptable for a devout muslim male such as yourself to "wash, stroke, caress, dry, and kiss" the feet of your fellow muslim males?  Is that a common form of greeting amongst muslim males?


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 27 April 2013 at 8:50am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Rational, I find it interesting that you are obsessing over the Pope washing the feet of a woman...

You're a fool if you think I'm obsessing over this. It's like me finding threads you've been involved in and telling you you're obsessed about whatever you were discussing. That's a poor thing to say. I'm giving my personal opinion. You don't like that reepischeap, well, you know the rest.

Originally posted by Reepicheep

As a muslim, do you believe that it is perfectly acceptable for a devout muslim male such as yourself to "wash, stroke, caress, dry, and kiss" the feet of your fellow muslim males?  Is that a common form of greeting amongst muslim males?

No I don't greet anyone by washing their feet, men or women. Do you? Are you confused?

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الله


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 27 April 2013 at 10:22am
Rational, do you consider it a sin for a devout muslim male such as yourself to "wash, stroke, caress, dry, and kiss" the feet of your fellow muslim males?  You obviously consider it a great sin for a muslim male to "wash, stroke, caress, dry, and kiss" the feet of a muslim female.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 27 April 2013 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Rational, do you consider it a sin for a devout muslim male such as yourself to "wash, stroke, caress, dry, and kiss" the feet of your fellow muslim males?  You obviously consider it a great sin for a muslim male to "wash, stroke, caress, dry, and kiss" the feet of a muslim female.

If it is not with the intention of lust and does not lead either one of them to commit a sin, then a male "washing, stroking, caressing, drying" the feet of another male would not be considered a sin. However, "kissing" is very questionable.

In the case of a man "washing, stroking, caressing, drying, or kissing" the feet of a woman that he is not married to, then this would be considered a sin.



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الله


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 27 April 2013 at 7:04pm
Rational wrote: In the case of a man "washing, stroking, caressing, drying, or kissing" the feet of a woman that he is not married to, then this would be considered a sin.
 
It appears that you are accusing the female muslim prisoner of being guilty of the crime of zina.  Correct?
 
If so, then do you believe that she should be turned over to an Islamic government so that she can be put to death, as prescribed by Islamic law?
 

 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 12:01am
Originally posted by Rational



Greetings rational,

Hi.  I'm sorry to take so long to respond to you.  Yes, I understood that you were following your beliefs and teachings and pretty much saying that I do not disagree with you... that I understand your conflict. Smile

In answer to your question... I do believe we do grow closer to God when we give our whole life to Him... but as the apostle Paul said... some are called to celibate or, the priestly, life and others are called to marriage... both are vessels to sanctify us.

As for what I quoted in my last post... You are correct, it was written by a shia muslim in response to a question about similarities between Catholicism and Shiism.  I don't know where they got that celibacy is severely condemned in islam.  I think it goes to the fact that, isn't marriage required for the completion of ones deen in islam?
They weren't quite correct on the 'Catholic ideal to remain celibate' either.  Both are acceptable in the sight of God.  Marriage between a male and female is one of the sacraments of God... as much as marriage to the church is.

I have found that there are some that defend Mutah, and there are others that condemn mutah for what it is.

Salaam,
Caringheart

This is why I have trouble with islam.  I find it to be very conflicted in many ways.


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 1:56am
Originally posted by Rational

Even though I clearly stated several times that the main issue I have is the abnormal fact of him including young women in this feet rubbing session. Call me old fashioned, but it's not something I'd allow happen to my daughter, and so I don't like seeing it done to other daughters.


The abnormal fact? What's wrong with rubbing the feet of young women, when this is a ritual with a symbolic meaning? I have a daughter and I don't see a problem. Most men are not perverts. Most men don't see women as sex objects. They see them as human beings. Is there any evidence that the new Pope has a history of inappropriate behavior towards girls and women? Is he a sex offender? Has he abused girls and women? Not to my knowledge, but maybe there's something I don't know. If so, washing female feet would indeed a problem.

Daughters are not the property of their fathers. They are independent human beings. Before they are mature women, they should be protected, but only against real threats. Assuming that all men are horny beings who can't control their impulses is an insult to all decent men.

A few Muslim men become terrorists. Does this mean all Muslims are terrorists?

A few men become rapists. Does this mean all men are rapists?

A few men become aroused when they shake hands with a woman (also a ritual like washing feet). Does this mean all men become aroused?

We should see the good in people and not just focus on a tiny minority capable of harming other people.

This young Muslim woman was capable of making her own decision. She chose to get her feet washed. It's her decision, not ours. We should respect her decision.






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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 5:24am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Rational wrote: In the case of a man "washing, stroking, caressing, drying, or kissing" the feet of a woman that he is not married to, then this would be considered a sin.
 
It appears that you are accusing the female muslim prisoner of being guilty of the crime of zina.  Correct?
 
If so, then do you believe that she should be turned over to an Islamic government so that she can be put to death, as prescribed by Islamic law?
 

 

It appears that you are a fool afterall with your pitiful questions. No I did not say she was guilty of zina. And Islam would never put a person to death for something as minor as this.


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الله


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 April 2013 at 9:46am
Originally posted by Matt Browne


This young Muslim woman was capable of making her own decision. She chose to get her feet washed. It's her decision, not ours. We should respect her decision.

Hi Matt,
Always the voice of reason.  I like this last of yours.  Yes, she certainly was old enough to make her own decision.
You make some other good points as well.
Hope you are doing well,
CH


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 12 November 2013 at 8:00am
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/11/06/photos-pope-francis-embraces-disfigured-man-covered-in-boils/


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 04 December 2013 at 12:22pm
The Pope has a foot fetish.Smelly feet.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 06 December 2013 at 8:35am
It's not a fetish, it's a Christian tradition. John 13:1–17 mentions Jesus performing this act.




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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt



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