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Quran

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24908
Printed Date: 23 July 2014 at 2:57am


Topic: Quran
Posted By: Aussie
Subject: Quran
Date Posted: 19 February 2013 at 8:47pm
It would seem I posted this thread in a rarely visited sub forum, I hope it's ok to repost it here
"If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"




Replies:
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Aussie

It would seem I posted this thread in a rarely visited sub forum, I hope it's ok to repost it here<table ="tableBorder" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" align="center"><t><tr ="msgTableRow"><td ="msgLineDevider" height="150" valign="top">
   
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   "If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"

   
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he spoke it?


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 22 February 2013 at 2:04am
Originally posted by Aussie


   "If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"

Dear Aussie,

The answer is because he had the Most Wonderful Teacher that no one would ever have. Allah Al-Aleem - Allah All-Knowing.

Salam.

-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 22 February 2013 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by Aussie

"If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"


I got this saying from Muhammad Haykal book called "Muhammad" or "History of Muhammad":

I am the most Arab among you, for I am of the tribe of Quraysh and I have been brought up among the tribe of Banu Sa'ad bin Bakr.

It seems according to his definition the race of a person is by the language he speaks. But not only that, he boast as above other Arabs around him for his pure Arabic. In today's word he spoke classical Arabic.

Or it can be interpreted as though somebody point a finger to him and said:
"You don't look like an Arab to me", in which he pointed a language is the only matter of who is who.

Hope that helps.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 23 February 2013 at 3:45pm

Can a Muslim here please clarify. Are  the Koran and the Arabic language divine miracles or not?

 
Because whats interesting is that the early copies of the Koran probably were not in Classical Arabic as we know it today at all.

Christoph Luxenberg in his book, “The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran,” says the language of the early copies of the Qur'an was not exclusively Arabic, but were based in the Syro-Aramaic dialect.

Luxenberg's states that the Aramaic (not Arabic) language which was common through the Middle East during the early period of Islam had a strong influence on the creation and meaning of the Koran. Not Arabic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg -  

Another Koran scholar by the name of Dr Gerd R  Puin states -

“… the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself.”

 

(Lester, Toby (January 1999). "What Is the Koran?". Atlantic Monthly.)



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:10am
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Can a Muslim here please clarify. Are<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>the Koran and the Arabic language divine miracles or not?


<FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> 

<FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Because whats interesting is that the early copies of the Koran probably were not in Classical Arabic as we know it today at all.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Christoph Luxenberg in his book, “The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran,” says the language of the early copies of the Qur'an was not exclusively Arabic, but were based in the Syro-Aramaic dialect.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Luxenberg's states that the Aramaic (not Arabic) language which was common through the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Middle East</st1:place> during the early period of Islam had a strong influence on the creation and meaning of the Koran. Not Arabic.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg - [COLOR=#800080 size=3 face="Times New Roman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg[/COLOR -


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Another Koran scholar by the name of Dr Gerd R<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>Puin states -


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">“… the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself.”


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">(Lester, Toby (January 1999). "What Is the Koran?". Atlantic Monthly.)

anybody, especially one with a hidden agenda, can say anything. does not make it true. let those so called scholars produce proof for what they are saying. scholars are only special to illiterate people who cannot read for themselves.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 1:00pm

How do you know they have a hidden agenda when you know nothing about them?

 

If you want proof – here it is. In 1972 a Koran was found in Sanaa Yemen that is the oldest Koran in existence. This Koran differs significantly from the present standard one.

The Sanaa Koran showed versions of text written over even earlier washed off versions.

 

These differences show the Koran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected. Textual alterations have taken place over the years by human hands.

 

It also shows the claim in the Koran that nobody can alter the words of God is not true.

 

Its funny you say that “scholars are only special to illiterate people who cannot read for themselves,” when most of the Muslim world do not even know Arabic to read the Koran for themselves.



Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 28 February 2013 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by Experiential

How do you know they have a hidden agenda when you know nothing about them?

If you want proof – here it is. In 1972 a Koran was found in Sanaa Yemen that is the oldest Koran in existence. This Koran differs significantly from the present standard one.
The Sanaa Koran showed versions of text written over even earlier washed off versions.

These differences show the Koran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected. Textual alterations have taken place over the years by human hands.

It also shows the claim in the Koran that nobody can alter the words of God is not true.

Its funny you say that “scholars are only special to illiterate people who cannot read for themselves,” when most of the Muslim world do not even know Arabic to read the Koran for themselves.


The sources that you quoted dear Experiential, are all from non-Muslims base. So the hidden agenda is, of course to question the authenticity of the Quran. However you will not find any Muslim sources that says the Quran is not the word of God.

Sadly I can quote you many non-Muslim sources that acknowledged that the Bible is not a word of God.

Indeed Allah Our Creator had guaranteed in the Quran that no one will ever be able to "distort, pervert, revise, modify and correct" as you mentioned.

Indeed, it is We (Allah) who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We (Allah) will be its guardian. Surah Al-Hijr 15:9

May Allah bless you with hidayah.

-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 02 March 2013 at 3:18pm

The motives of Dr Puin and Christoph Luxenberg are obvious. They are academic scholars. Dr Puin is a scholar of historical orthography, and a specialist in Arabic paleography.  And Christoph Luxenberg is an academic linguist specializing in Semitic languages. Their motives are scholarly. Not to undermine your religion. Muslim inability to respond intelligently to the facts undermines your religion.

Your response that their hidden agenda is, to question the authenticity of the Quran is typical Muslim paranoia, closed mindedness and evasion.

 

The facts speak for themselves. Please respond to the facts. -

How do you explain that the Koran found in 1972 in Yemen (which is the oldest Koran in existence) differs significantly from your present standard one?

 

How do you explain that this Yemen Koran showed versions of text written over even earlier washed off versions?

 

If it is true that Allah had guaranteed in the Quran that no one will ever be able to "distort, pervert, revise, modify and correct" then you need to explain the facts revealed from the analysis of the Sanaa Yemen Quaran.

 

You say “you will not find any Muslim sources that says the Quran is not the word of God.”  So what is the agenda of these Muslim sources ?

It is to support Islam rather than to look at the facts in an intelligent academic way.

Besides what Muslim in their right mind would criticize the Quran without risking a fatwa of apostasy and a death sentence.

 

You say you can quote many non-Muslim sources that acknowledged that the Bible is not a word of God.  I welcome truth so please go ahead and quote the many non-Muslim sources that acknowledge the Bible is not the word of God.

I’ve heard many of them before, many posted here on this discussion forum.

Muslims on this forum are quick to criticize the Bible. But when their own Quran is criticized Muslims can’t handle it. They tend to become defensive, and closed minded to argument, with no real intelligent reply to the good points being made. I welcome your response to the points above about the historical evolution of the Quran.

 

I pray that God may guide you on paths of wisdom.

  



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 04 March 2013 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">How do you know they have a hidden agenda when you know nothing about them?


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">If you want proof – here it is. In 1972 a Koran was found in Sanaa <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Yemen</st1:place></st1:country-region> that is the oldest Koran in existence. This Koran differs significantly from the present standard one.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">The Sanaa Koran showed versions of text written over even earlier washed off versions.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">These differences show the Koran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected. Textual alterations have taken place over the years by human hands.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">It also shows the claim in the Koran that nobody can alter the words of God is not true.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Its funny you say that “scholars are only special to illiterate people who cannot read for themselves,” when most of the Muslim world do not even know Arabic to read the Koran for themselves.

anybody who says Another Koran scholar by the name of Dr Gerd R Puin states -
“… the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself.”
is obviously intellectually dishonest. do not follow anything just because it is what you want to believe, find out if it is the truth first.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 March 2013 at 9:42pm
"Please respond to the facts. "

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 05 March 2013 at 1:57am

That sounds funny coming from you Mahdi. You are of all people are quick to pass judgment on the Bible and wanting to believe what you want to believe.

 

Here are the facts again -

 

 

  1. The Koran found in 1972 in Yemen (which is the oldest Koran in existence) differs significantly from your present standard one.

 

  1. This Yemen Koran showed versions of text written over even earlier washed off versions?

 

  1. No Muslim in their right mind would criticize the Quran without risking a fatwa of blasphemy / apostasy and a possible death sentence.

 

Once again. Why don’t you address the facts provided, or can you not?



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 06 March 2013 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">That sounds funny coming from you Mahdi. You are of all people are quick to pass judgment on the Bible and wanting to believe what you want to believe.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Here are the facts again -


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" ="1">
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">The Koran found in 1972 in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Yemen</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> (which is the oldest Koran in existence) differs significantly from your present standard one.
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" start=2 ="1">
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">This Yemen Koran showed versions of text written over even earlier washed off versions?
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" start=3 ="1">
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">No Muslim in their right mind would criticize the Quran without risking a fatwa of blasphemy / apostasy and a possible death sentence.
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" ="Msonormal"> 


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Once again. Why don’t you address the facts provided, or can you not?

any unsupervised person can write whatever they want in any place. we rely only on authoritative accounts. whatever was written on the papers earlier could be anything .did those 'scholars' analyse the underlying texts? what exactly are the differences between the texts in yemen and today's Quran?


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 07 March 2013 at 7:33pm
There were variants of the Qur'an in circulation prior to the canonised revision of 'Uthmān ibn 'Affān. This fact is not contested by Muslim scholars, but neither is it seen as any reason to question the mass burning of all that was deemed unreliable. To the contrary, this irreversible act of quality assurance is now called 'world's best practice' and serves as ultimate proof - supposing any proof were needed - that the surviving edition must therefore be free from human error.
Pinch


-------------
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 10:38pm

Mahdi Said

any unsupervised person can write whatever they want in any place. we rely only on authoritative accounts. whatever was written on the papers earlier could be anything .did those 'scholars' analyse the underlying texts? what exactly are the differences between the texts in yemen and today's Quran?

My Reply

Any unsupervised person? What does that mean? I wouldn’t say experts in semitic philology who specialise in Arabic calligraphy and Koranic palaeography would be ‘unsupervised’ what ever that means anyway?

I would say they understand the Koran better than you and most other Muslims on this planet.

 

You say Muslims rely on an authoritative account. What authoritative account would that be. No original copies of the Koran exist so how would you know due to Uthmans burning of all other accounts.

You say whatever was written on the papers earlier could be anything. Yes exactly that’s my point! The Quran could say any thing.

You ask did they analyse the underlying texts? Yes they did and this is what they found.

 

They analysed 16000 sheets or parchments of Koranic fragments and uncovered even more variants in the rasm that are not found in all eight volumes, Mu‘jam al-qirä’ät  al-qur’äniyyah dictionaries.

 

He found over ten thousand variants, of which about a thousand are variants of or deviations in the rasm. In just 83 sheets of Koranic fragments Puin discovered at least 5000 deviations in the rasm.

 

He found differences in the system of counting of verses and  even the sequence of suras is often different  with not only the Standard Egyptian edition of the Quaran but with the sequence of suras in the Korans of Ibn Mas‘üd and Ubayy.

 

These deviations cannot be dismissed as mere scribal (writer) errors since the so-called errors are repeated with the same word several times in several fragments studied.

 

An example in change of meaning is where Puin found that the long "a" sound could be rendered by the Arab letter yä’, and originally the name in the present Koran that is read as "‘Ibrähïm" must have been read "Abrähäm". In other words, at some stage that fact that the long "ä" was rendered with the yä’ was forgotten - hence the so-called oral tradition was not strong or even non-existent.

 

Another scholar Andrew Rippin analyzing the Sanaa Koran goes on to discuss Sura XXI.4 and 112. Should the two verses begin with the imperative "Say!", [in Arabic:qul] thus indicating that God is the speaker, or should the word be read as "He said" [qäla]? 

 

Puin says like other early Arabic literature, the Sa'na Koran was written without any diacritical marks, vowel symbols or any guide to how it should be read.

 

 "The text was written so defectively that it can be read in a perfect way only if you have a strong oral tradition." The Sa'na text, just like other early Korans, was a guide to those who knew it already by memory, he says. Those that were unfamiliar with the Koran would read it differently because there were no diacritical and vowel symbols.

 

Puin also questions that it was written in the purest Arabic. He has found many words of foreign origin in the text, including the word "Koran" itself. Muslim scholars explain the "Koran" to mean recitation, but Puin argues that it is actually derived from an Aramaic word, qariyun, meaning a lectionary of scripture portions appointed to be read at divine service. He says the Koran contains most of the biblical stories but in a shorter form and is "a summary of the Bible to be read in service".

 

In conclusion the Koran has undergone an evolution. In other words, the copy of the Koran you have today is not the one believed to have been revealed to the prophet.

 

All of this sheds doubt on the Koran as the eternal, literal Word of God, unchanging and permanent. On tablets in heaven passed down to Gabriel and then Mohammad and to the Koran you have today? Really ?



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by nospam001

There were variants of the Qur'an in circulation prior to the canonised revision of 'Uthmān ibn 'Affān. This fact is not contested by Muslim scholars, but neither is it seen as any reason to question the mass burning of all that was deemed unreliable. To the contrary, this irreversible act of quality assurance is now called 'world's best practice' and serves as ultimate proof - supposing any proof were needed - that the surviving edition must therefore be free from human error.
Pinch

Yes Nospam001, I agree. The issue for me however is whether the Koran is really the eternal, literal Word of God, unchanging, and really a Miracle book?



Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 1:06am
Originally posted by Experiential

The issue for me however is whether the Koran is really the eternal, literal Word of God, unchanging, and really a Miracle book?
Are you daring to suggest that 'Uthmān ibn 'Affān might have deliberately changed a few words here and there, to suit his own agenda? Just because he could? As if a caliph would ever contemplate such a thing - even when that might help avert a civil war. Preposterous!

-------------
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 16 March 2013 at 12:22am
Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Experiential

The issue for me however is whether the Koran is really the eternal, literal Word of God, unchanging, and really a Miracle book?
Are you daring to suggest that 'Uthmān ibn 'Affān might have deliberately changed a few words here and there, to suit his own agenda? Just because he could? As if a caliph would ever contemplate such a thing - even when that might help avert a civil war. Preposterous!

Well, considering all the first few Caliphs were murdered and the violent civil wars that tore Islam apart in those early days it doesn’t surprise me if Uthman changed the Quaran for political reasons.



Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 24 April 2013 at 1:58am
Originally posted by Aussie

It would seem I posted this thread in a rarely visited sub forum, I hope it's ok to repost it here
"If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"

Our prophet Muhammad(pbuh),used to memorise the message from the angel Gabriel and then he narrate these verses to his companions(Sahabas),if you read Qur'an you will notice there is no book on earth that can match it.Allah even challenges to produce verses equal to it in Surah An Yunus ch 10 v 38 Surah Al Hud ch 11 v 13.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 05 May 2013 at 12:33am
Originally posted by NABA

Originally posted by Aussie

It would seem I posted this thread in a rarely visited sub forum, I hope it's ok to repost it here
"If Muhammad was illiterate, how did he know Classical Arabic?"

Our prophet Muhammad(pbuh),used to memorise the message from the angel Gabriel and then he narrate these verses to his companions(Sahabas),if you read Qur'an you will notice there is no book on earth that can match it.Allah even challenges to produce verses equal to it in Surah An Yunus ch 10 v 38 Surah Al Hud ch 11 v 13.

I accept the challenge. I have read much of the Koran and I find many other books and poems I have read far superior to anything in the Koran.

There is ample evidence to prove the Koran is not  a miracle.



Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 19 May 2013 at 2:16am

The Quran Dilemma book also discusses these same issues and was written by FORMER Muslim scholars.  Their agenda is to find the TRUTH.  There is only one.  Once you realize the fact that the Koran had many different versions, and that many Muslims disagreed on the content, and that Muhammed was not around to clarify and in fact wrote none of it, then you cannot say that it is 100% accurate or even holy.  So then it really is not any better than the Bible, and the Bible should be given more credibility, especially the words and works of Jesus.  Maybe they are true?  Maybe Muslims should heed his words, or at least study them and decide for yourself what is true.  We all have the ability to discern truth.  If you never read it you will never know it.  You cannot be sure of the Koran any  more than the bible, so you need to decide for yourself. 



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 May 2013 at 8:58am
Originally posted by Empiricist

The Quran Dilemma book also discusses these same issues and was written by FORMER Muslim scholars.  Their agenda is to find the TRUTH.  There is only one.  Once you realize the fact that the Koran had many different versions, and that many Muslims disagreed on the content, and that Muhammed was not around to clarify and in fact wrote none of it, then you cannot say that it is 100% accurate or even holy.  So then it really is not any better than the Bible, and the Bible should be given more credibility, especially the words and works of Jesus.  Maybe they are true?  Maybe Muslims should heed his words, or at least study them and decide for yourself what is true.  We all have the ability to discern truth.  If you never read it you will never know it.  You cannot be sure of the Koran any  more than the bible, so you need to decide for yourself. 


My point exactly.  No one should ever dismiss something without reading it for themselves.  No one should simply take the word of another.
As it says in the Biblical scriptures;
'test the scriptures to see that they are true'
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
and, 'study to show thyself approved'

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 21 May 2013 at 10:00am

Qur'an has no versions,it is one and the last revelation of Allah,there are many scientific facts mentioned in Qur'an 1400 years ago  ,which scientists today are discovering,example in Surah Al Furqaan ch 25 v 61-the moon has no light of its own,it reflects the light of sun,this fact was discovered by scientists many years after revelation of Qur'an,science has not developed yet to understand Quran



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 28 May 2013 at 12:40am
Originally posted by NABA

Qur'an has no versions,it is one and the last revelation of Allah,there are many scientific facts mentioned in Qur'an 1400 years ago  ,which scientists today are discovering,example in Surah Al Furqaan ch 25 v 61-the moon has no light of its own,it reflects the light of sun,this fact was discovered by scientists many years after revelation of Qur'an,science has not developed yet to understand Quran

 

Yes the Quaran did have many versions. The ancient Quaran found at Sunna in Yemen in 1972 proves this.

And it was because of the confusion that these different versions caused, that Caliph Uthman had to destroy them.

 

To say the Quaran has scientific facts actually destroys the authority of the Qur’an. There are scientific journals, books, and scientific papers that we could read to find out more than the Qur’an teaches on any subject.

So if we can learn more about one subject in the Qur’an by reading from science then why not other subjects too? How can Muslims claim that the Qur’an contains all the guidance mankind needs for living? Perhaps we need to read elsewhere? How do they know that the Qur’an teaches us all we need to know about God’s nature? Or about how he wants us to live? Perhaps they need to read elsewhere to get the full picture? And so on.

Your "modern science proves the Qur’an" argument destroys the authority of the Qur’an.



Posted By: bronaz
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 3:06am
There is something called Abrogation in Quran Where a later verse changes/replaces the content of an earlier verse.
This Abrogation has been explicitly accepted by all Muslims as saying something better was revealed in the new text.
God is perfect. So why would he reveal an imperfect verse.
Take the equivalent in the Bible : Jesus said " 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. Matthew Chap 5
If something imperfect is revealed in the Quran in any Chapter, it renders the Quran imperfect and hence cannot be the Word of God.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 01 June 2013 at 11:07am

Qur'an is the book of signs not science,science is nothing in front of Qur'an,for eg in Surah Muminoon ch 23 v 12-14-Allah describes the development stages of a human being and at some point of time embryo acquires leech like substance which was proved few years ago,1s again I say Qur'an has no version,whatever reference U give doesn't matter,because Allah had taken responsibility of preserving Qur'an in Surah Al Hijra ch 15 v 9,truly Qur'an has solutions to mankind,for eg Qur'an says chop off the hands of thieves,if one implement this law,as it is done in Saudi,In Sha Allah no of crimes will b reduced,another example is don't approach ur women when they are in periods(ch 2 v 222),logically it is right.at bronaz can U show some verses which exhibits abrogation,whole world believes Qur'an is the best form of poetry,best form of poetry doesn't contain abrogation.Allah in Surah al yunus ch 10 v 38,surah Al hud ch 11 v 13 challenges mankind to produce book equal to this,Allah clearly mentions about this fact that he had created Qur'an easy for us to understand in Surah Al Qamar ch 54 v 17,22,32,40.



Posted By: bronaz
Date Posted: 02 June 2013 at 1:33am
Dear NABA,
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Quran
Here is an entire list of abrogations in the Quran for you.
Here is the start of an article from Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani
Abrogation is translated from the Arabic word naskh which literally means “to erase; to compensate.” Its technical definition is “to repeal a legal order through legal argument”. In other words, sometimes Allah enforces a legal edict that is relevant only to a particular situation. Later, in His infinite wisdom, He annuls the order and enforces a new one in its place. This action is known as “abrogation” (naskh), and the replaced order is then termed “abrogated” (mansukh) while the new replacing order is called the “abrogator” (nasikh)
Here is the relevant link to the article:
http://www.ilmgate.org/abrogation-in-the-quran/
The article goes on to say in one situation that verse is applicable while not in another later situation. We all know the situations change...Life today is not the same as it was 1500 years ago...but we are not getting something, because you say Muhammad is the last prophet and all that God wants to reveal has been revealed in the Quran. The Quran we know was written over 23 years and from the number of abrogations you can see that 1500 years later we would need more verses to be abrogated. But none can be forthcoming.
I dont think Gods laws can continue to change. Murder is what it was then and now. Goodness is same as it was a long ago. God only wants us to be good. Goodness cannot evolve with the times.



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 06 June 2013 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by NABA

Qur'an is the book of signs not science,science is nothing in front of Qur'an,for eg in Surah Muminoon ch 23 v 12-14-Allah describes the development stages of a human being and at some point of time embryo acquires leech like substance which was proved few years ago,1s again I say Qur'an has no version,whatever reference U give doesn't matter,because Allah had taken responsibility of preserving Qur'an in Surah Al Hijra ch 15 v 9,truly Qur'an has solutions to mankind,for eg Qur'an says chop off the hands of thieves,if one implement this law,as it is done in Saudi,In Sha Allah no of crimes will b reduced,another example is don't approach ur women when they are in periods(ch 2 v 222),logically it is right.at bronaz can U show some verses which exhibits abrogation,whole world believes Qur'an is the best form of poetry,best form of poetry doesn't contain abrogation.Allah in Surah al yunus ch 10 v 38,surah Al hud ch 11 v 13 challenges mankind to produce book equal to this,Allah clearly mentions about this fact that he had created Qur'an easy for us to understand in Surah Al Qamar ch 54 v 17,22,32,40.

You say the Qur'an is the book of signs not science and that science is nothing in front of the Qur'an and then you talk about the embryo and leeches. However once again you are relying on science in your argument– proving that science is as important or superior to the Quran.

 

To say that Allah had taken responsibility of preserving Qur'an is a silly argument. I don’t believe in the Quran so why should I believe in Surah Al Hijra ch 15 v 9 ?

You are simply using the Quaran to support the Quaran. Look outside the Quaran and it does not stand up

There are other versions. The one found in Yemen in 1972 is the oldest Quran in existence and shows the ‘miracle Quran’ is not a miracle at all.

 

You say Allah in Surah challenges mankind to produce book equal to the Quaran. I accept the challenge! I have read Shakespeare, many different poets and the Bible and find them all superior to the Quaran The Quran is not easy understand, it is  rambling its repetitive and redundant. It is violent and cruel.



Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 07 June 2013 at 9:32am
regarding about the ch 23 v 12-14,that verse was mentioned 1400 years ago in Qur'an,and that fact wad established few years ago by scientists,Qur'an is far above science.talking about facts outside Qur'an Allah in ch 10 v 92 mentioned that corpse of king pharaoh will b the message to the mankind the result of bad deeds,that fact came into existence in 1870's by scientists,I ask U how is that possible,that before the happening of an event,it was mentioned 1400 years ago,truly Qur'an is a miracle of miracles.


Posted By: bronaz
Date Posted: 07 June 2013 at 6:33pm
Naba, you havent addressed the issue I raised regarding abrogations in the Quran. Using verses anything can be proved...because after all it is a play on words. To examine the Word of God we have to see whether the words are consistent....which unfortunately are not so in the Quran in the light of abrogations...hence it cannot be the Word of God


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 12 June 2013 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by NABA

regarding about the ch 23 v 12-14,that verse was mentioned 1400 years ago in Qur'an,and that fact wad established few years ago by scientists,Qur'an is far above science.talking about facts outside Qur'an Allah in ch 10 v 92 mentioned that corpse of king pharaoh will b the message to the mankind the result of bad deeds,that fact came into existence in 1870's by scientists,I ask U how is that possible,that before the happening of an event,it was mentioned 1400 years ago,truly Qur'an is a miracle of miracles.

Again you are relying on science in your argument– proving that science is as important or more important than the Quran.

 

You said on my post called The Haj is Shirk that in Sura 21.30 .  Allah mentioned in Qur'an 1400 years back,eg about big bang theory which scientists discover only few 50 years back

 

Here is Sura 21.30. Have a good read -

 

30. Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe 31. And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them, and We placed therein broad highways for them to pass through, that they may be guided. 32. And We have made the heaven a roof, safe and well-guarded. Yet they turn away from its signs. 33. And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.

 

Now here is the Bible. Genesis Chapter 1. Verse 1-7 –

 

God saw that the light was good, and he separate   the light from the darkness. 

And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness. 

God called the light "day" and the darkness "night." And evening passed and morning came, marking the first day. 

Then God said, "Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth." 

And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters of the earth from the waters of the heavens. 

 

Obviously Mohamed borrowed his ideas from the Bible. So that means the Bible is the ‘miracle book’ !



Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 16 June 2013 at 6:17am
Just because there may be prophecies that come true in the Quran does not make it anything special.  There are countless predictions today by people that come true.  Call them prophets, seers or whatever, it is common.  Muhammad cannot be the "last prophet".  Whoever wrote this clearly wanted people to think this so they would not stray from Islam.   Why would there be a "last prophet"?  Prophesy is a gift of many.  Edgar Cayce is an example of a modern prophet.  Many books are written about his writings in trance state.    


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 21 June 2013 at 9:37am
at bronaz first quote me the verses of Qur'an that exhibit abrogation,where in the Qur'an is the contraindications,I don't c it.at experential,the verses U compare itself proving U wrong.SubhanAllah truly Qur'an is unexplainable in the words of man,the verses U quote from the bible doesn't prove anything regarding the word of God,there is no sun or moon mentioned,how can evening or morning happen without sun or moon??U urself quoted in verse 33 that sun and moon are floating in the orbit,is it real or not??yes it is,so U urself proving urself wrong,in Quran in Surah Al Furqaan ch 25 v 61-moon reflects the light of sun.U say that prophet Muhammad(pbuh) borrow from bible,this shows ur less knowledge,prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was illiterate but was the best man,every Muslim prays that he should intercede for them in hereafter and its our duty to send blessings to him(ch 33 v 56),since he doesn't know how to read how he can borrow from bible,firstly understand that science is a subject that studies nature,I m not taking help of science to prove Qur'an is right,I m taking help of Qur'an to prove that science is not even the size of atom in front of Qur'an.y don't U mentioned the verse ch 29 v 48-that prophet was illiterate,the more U try to prove Qur'an wrong the more U urself are proving wrong.at empiricist Jesus christ(pbuh) in the bible himself predicts coming of last prophet.


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 21 June 2013 at 10:07am

 Experiential
 Obviously Mohamed borrowed his ideas from the Bible.

 My Reply

 Muhammad was born in Mecca.He could not write nor read and spoke only Arabic.Hebrew Bible was not translated into Arabic until the 10th century.Bible was translated into Arabic in the 17th century.So how could Muhammad borrow his ideas from the Bible?
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Posted By: bronaz
Date Posted: 23 June 2013 at 4:16am
Naba and Mansoor....Quran is truly a work of art to be written by an illiterate person, but it cannot be the word of God. I have mentioned earlier that the Word of God is unchanging..this has special relation to what we humans can see and not see...If there is something we can see for example the sun, moon or anything visible then we have to accept what we see with our eyes because that is what is real. When the Word of God describes something that we cannot see...for eg heaven or hell then the description given has to be consistent. How can you test the mercy of God? you have to rely on what is revealed in the Quran.
Say: “O 'Ibadi (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives ALL sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And turn in repentance and in obedience with true Faith (Islamic Monotheism) to your Lord and submit to Him, (in Islam), before the torment comes upon you, then you will not be helped.” S. 39:53-54
Then again....
in 2:284To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth, and whether you disclose what is in your ownselves or conceal it, Allah will call you to account for it. Then He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things.
Man is imperfect...he is dependent on Gods mercy else all humans would be lost.
No one can say that Gods Mercy is guaranteed in the
Quran with reference to the above verses...
I presume every Muslim follows Islam to go to heaven, but heaven is not Guaranteed because forgiveness isnt guaranteed.



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 25 June 2013 at 3:48am
Originally posted by NABA

at bronaz first quote me the verses of Qur'an that exhibit abrogation,where in the Qur'an is the contraindications,I don't c it.at experential,the verses U compare itself proving U wrong.SubhanAllah truly Qur'an is unexplainable in the words of man,the verses U quote from the bible doesn't prove anything regarding the word of God,there is no sun or moon mentioned,how can evening or morning happen without sun or moon??U urself quoted in verse 33 that sun and moon are floating in the orbit,is it real or not??yes it is,so U urself proving urself wrong,in Quran in Surah Al Furqaan ch 25 v 61-moon reflects the light of sun.U say that prophet Muhammad(pbuh) borrow from bible,this shows ur less knowledge,prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was illiterate but was the best man,every Muslim prays that he should intercede for them in hereafter and its our duty to send blessings to him(ch 33 v 56),since he doesn't know how to read how he can borrow from bible,firstly understand that science is a subject that studies nature,I m not taking help of science to prove Qur'an is right,I m taking help of Qur'an to prove that science is not even the size of atom in front of Qur'an.y don't U mentioned the verse ch 29 v 48-that prophet was illiterate,the more U try to prove Qur'an wrong the more U urself are proving wrong.at empiricist Jesus christ(pbuh) in the bible himself predicts coming of last prophet.

Naba. Sura 21.30 and Genesis Chapter 1 are not exact but the ideas are so similar that it is obvious that Mohammad borrowed his from the Torah.

 

You say Mohamad didn’t  know how to read how he can borrow from bible?

There were Christians and Jews in Arabia at the time of Mohammad. Mohammad knew the stories from the Torah and Injil through word of mouth. How else would he have known about all of the stories and prophets from the Torah and Injil. Including the creation story? Not being able to read or write had nothing to do with it.

 

No matter how you try to explain it Naba. When you rely on science in your argument you are proving that science is as important or superior to the Quran.

Even if Mohammad was illiterate, so what? He heard his stories from pagans, Jews and Christians. He had his ‘visions’. He told others and they memorized them and wrote them down. No miracle there.

 

Also you asked Empiricist that  Jesus in the Injil himself predicts coming of last prophet. Please state where in the Injil it says this? and please do not say it is John 14.26 because this is about the Holy Spirit. Not Mohammad.



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 25 June 2013 at 3:56am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 Experiential
 Obviously Mohamed borrowed his ideas from the Bible.

 My Reply

 Muhammad was born in Mecca.He could not write nor read and spoke only Arabic.Hebrew Bible was not translated into Arabic until the 10th century.Bible was translated into Arabic in the 17th century.So how could Muhammad borrow his ideas from the Bible?
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There were Christians and Jews in Arabia long before the time of Mohammad. Mohammad knew the stories from the Torah and Injil through word of mouth. How else would he have known about all of the stories and prophets from the Torah and Injil. Including the creation story.

Not being able to read or write had nothing to do with it.



Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 26 June 2013 at 9:55am
at bronaz to go to heaven one should follow four things as mentioned in Surah Al Asra ch 103 v 1-3-man is in the state of loss except those who have faith,those who do good deeds,those who resort people to truth,those who resort people to patience and perseverance,Allah in several places say that there is reward for those who believe,since Allah says this it is enough for us,but we had to constantly ask for forgiveness to him.Allah also says constantly do perseverance and b patient,in ch 8 v 46-Allah is with those who are patient.since Allah promises us there is no question of guarantee.even U can't guarantee ur place in heaven,u say That Jesus(pbuh) is God.Jesus(pbuh) says my father is greater than I whatever I do I do because of him,God has no father.at expereintial U should also b well versed with the fact that apart from Qur'an Allah also send message to our prophet,for eg prophet says that always sleep towards the right side,scientifically it is beneficial,prophet also said that whosoever raises his two daughters with love and affection,he will b close to me at time of entering heaven,so there are several things besides Qur'an that were given to prophet by Allah.i still say science is less superior than Qur'an,eg Allah in ch 45 v 12 says I had made sea for U so that ships can sail easily and other benefits.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 4:16am
Originally posted by NABA

at bronaz to go to heaven one should follow four things as mentioned in Surah Al Asra ch 103 v 1-3-man is in the state of loss except those who have faith,those who do good deeds,those who resort people to truth,those who resort people to patience and perseverance,Allah in several places say that there is reward for those who believe,since Allah says this it is enough for us,but we had to constantly ask for forgiveness to him.Allah also says constantly do perseverance and b patient,in ch 8 v 46-Allah is with those who are patient.since Allah promises us there is no question of guarantee.even U can't guarantee ur place in heaven,u say That Jesus(pbuh) is God.Jesus(pbuh) says my father is greater than I whatever I do I do because of him,God has no father.at expereintial U should also b well versed with the fact that apart from Qur'an Allah also send message to our prophet,for eg prophet says that always sleep towards the right side,scientifically it is beneficial,prophet also said that whosoever raises his two daughters with love and affection,he will b close to me at time of entering heaven,so there are several things besides Qur'an that were given to prophet by Allah.i still say science is less superior than Qur'an,eg Allah in ch 45 v 12 says I had made sea for U so that ships can sail easily and other benefits.

You have not answered what I have said about the Quran and science. Once again you are relying on science in your argument– proving that science is as important or superior to the Quran. In ch 45 v 12 You talk about ships on the sea, sleeping on your right side and loving your daughters.  So what? Nothing very special about any of this!

 

How are these silly statements from the Koran to be explained scientifically?

Sura 27:18-19 records that King Solomon overheard a conversation between ants. This is scientifically impossible as ants use smell, not sound, to communicate and the context of the story indicates that this is not a miracle of Allah.

 

Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool.

 

These ‘scientific verses’ from the Quran are st**id, silly and ridiculous! You have not answered this. How are these ridiculous statements from the Koran to be explained scientifically?

Do you believe the sun sets in a muddy pond? Also ants communicate by smell – not talking !



Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 04 July 2013 at 2:08pm
It is obvious the moon is in an orbit around the sun, and that the earth is turning- is that another translation of orbit?

And Mohamed did not need to read, as already stated, to know what the bible said- he obviously had a dislike for Christians and Jews so he must have had much contact with them, so they probably spoke his language. Maybe somebody tried to teach him about Jesus. And again, the writers had some liberty to write what they wanted, and change it over the course of many years. They wanted to have something similar to the bible, so they rewrote it in their own words. And the Quran is not well organized. It has scattered verses, not connected.

Why don't Muslims read the New Testament? There is no punishment if Christians read the Quran or anything else. We are free to find the truth. I have read much of the Quran and the book Quran Dilemma, and it is no comparison to the bible. I hope Muslims wake up and realize they are simply being controlled for political reasons, and seek the truth. The truth is found also by writings of others- CS Lewis was an atheist before he became a Christian. See the book Mere Christianity. If a Muslim would just read this book, they would really see Christianity in a new and truthful light, not like what they are taught about how bad everything else is. This is brainwashing propaganda.

And Jesus did NOT predict Mohammed. It was the holy spirit, and it came right after his death. Mohammed came far too late to do any good. And the Quran is just a book of loopholes allowing many sins that were not allowed in the bible. Mohammed allowed murder, rape, adultery, theft, etc of non-Muslims. Jesus allowed none of this. In fact I see Muslims as always angry and frowning.

And one really as to wonder, what would the religion be like that Satan himself would create. It would be very much like Islam in my opinion- full of loopholes to sin, a deceptive copy of the bible, and full control of the people, through fear of death if they try to sway away from it, and hatred of Christians and Jews. Oh- and Muslims say they believe in Jesus too, but they have no idea what he said. They are told the bible was corrupted, so it is not correct. Is it ALL corrupted? Is the message all changed? That is simply impossible. Maybe a few passages changed, interpreted somewhat differently, but this is true for the Quran too, in fact more so! Over 50 versions at one time! This cannot be denied!


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 07 July 2013 at 2:14am

 Experiential
 
There were Christians and Jews in Arabia long before the time of Mohammad. Mohammad knew the stories from the Torah and Injil through word of mouth. How else would he have known about all of the stories and prophets from the Torah and Injil. Including the creation story.

Not being able to read or write had nothing to do with it.


 My Reply


 Let me put forward some questions:

 "Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) might have learned all that?

It is known that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name of the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil, etc. Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterizes tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?

What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?

How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

It is known that some of the Qur'anic revelations to Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) were revealed in the presence of people. The Qur’an was revealed over the span of 23 years. Where then was that mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam), who was constantly surrounded by companions, was able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

 


 
 
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Posted By: bronaz
Date Posted: 07 July 2013 at 2:42am
Mansoor, a well put forth argument..which ignores one fact that God is Spirit and Satan is an evil spirit....both of which cannot be seen.
Jesus called Satan a liar and a murderer from the onset.
A liar corrupts the truth and time and time again it has been proven that certain facts in the Quran dont stand to reason.Notable among them is the crucifixion of Jesus which the Quran denies.
It has been observed time and time again that Satan/evil spirits hates the sight of the crucifix. If that had to be Judas as the Quran espouses then what is there to be scared of, but if it is Jesus who is God who is crucified then there is a very good reason to be scared. Possessed people hate the sight of the crucifix. It stands to reason why the value of crucifixion had to be deflated. so you see why the same has been said in the Quran.
Lies can be stated in very poetic form, and I would like to remind you that Satan was one of the most powerful and beautiful angel before he became the devil. So intellectually he is very strong.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 08 July 2013 at 11:02pm
Satan was not angel he is a jinn,angels are those creatures that do not disobey commandments of Allah,human beings and jinns are the two creations of Allah who possess free will,and that's Allah want to c whether after having free will we obey Allah or not,if U say Jesus(pbuh) is God and he is crucified,then how he is God????U urself contraindicating urself,because the concept of God is mentioned in Qur'an in ch 112 v 1-4-he is one,he is eternal,he is neither born nor begets,there is nothing like him.If U say God is crucified then who controlled the world for that period of time????means God died???it is truly illogical!!!!!Jesus Christ(pbuh) is the important messenger of Allah,he always said whatever I do I do with the help of Allah,worship him he is your lord and my lord.


Posted By: bronaz
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 1:51am
My Dear NABA,
As the Bible states Satan was first an angel but because he disobeyed God, he was cast into hell and therefore became Satan.
Regarding the crucifixion, I know Muslims have a serious problem with that and you are no exceptions.
To be able to understand Christian theology we have to understand that
God transcends time and space
Since he is creator all the laws of the universe are subject to him. Which means he can do as he pleases..he can make it rain from a clear sky...to give an example.
If the Quran accepts the fact that Jesus could be conceived by Mary without having relations....because that is not logical then it should also accept the fact that God can become Man and since Jesus is the Second person in the Trinity, the work of God continued while he endured death on a cross. The Mystery is Jesus was both Divine and Human. The Human died on the Cross, the divine still lives on and will live to eternity.
If God can do anything and I believe you believe that...then everything is possible and the Christian theology is very sound...
If you do a search on Fatima, you will find that Mary appeared to three children and continued to do so for six months on the 13th of every month. This was witnessed by over 70,000 people. So the testimony of all cannot be wrong.  You can check out Wikipedia.... If that doesnt convince you, nothing will



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 9:38am
Originally posted by NABA

God died???it is truly illogical!!!!!

Greetings NABA,

34 who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please



I always suggest for people to read the book of Job to understand how the wisdom of God is higher than any we can aspire to have.  Is our wisdom higher than the wisdom of God that we should dispute against what He has  clearly shown to us, and done for us?

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

...

If you can please read the whole book of Job to gain understanding.

Salaam and blessings to you brother.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 Experiential
 
There were Christians and Jews in Arabia long before the time of Mohammad. Mohammad knew the stories from the Torah and Injil through word of mouth. How else would he have known about all of the stories and prophets from the Torah and Injil. Including the creation story.

Not being able to read or write had nothing to do with it.


 My Reply


 Let me put forward some questions:

 "Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) might have learned all that?

It is known that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name of the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil, etc. Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterizes tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?

What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?

How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

It is known that some of the Qur'anic revelations to Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) were revealed in the presence of people. The Qur’an was revealed over the span of 23 years. Where then was that mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam), who was constantly surrounded by companions, was able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

Greetings Mansoor_ali,

Tell me this does not sound familiar:
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars

7 Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

(And David saith) 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,

These are all words from the Bible...
however the Bible goes on to say...
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


I believe that Muhammad had heard the message but he did not bring the fullness of the message to his people.

Salaam.



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 09 July 2013 at 10:36pm
dear bronaz in bible itself it is written in cornithians 11:14-Even Satan disguise itself as angels so I m a human so I need not need to b disguised as human similarly if Satan was angel he should not have need to b disguised as angel this shows bible also proves Satan was not angel,in Qur'an in ch 18 v 50-Satan was jinn,as I said that angels are created by Allah in such a way that they are here only to obey Allah,if a creature had free will then he is not an angel,I agree that Allah can do anything,but he will not do ungodly things,as mentioned in Surah Al Burooj ch 85 v 16-Allah does only those things what he intends to do.Allah doesn't do those things what we think with our limited memory.for eg U R well versed with tale of prophet Jonah(pbuh),he was in the stomach of whale for 3 days 3 nights,but what he do,he prayed to Allah but Allah answered his prayer in such a way that the whale vomit him out near the shore,normally when we think by ourselves we would have take him for granted that he is dead,but U can't predict what Allah can do,there is nothing like him(ch 112 v 4).Allah need not to become human at all,he is way above all needs.Allah in fact doesn't need us(ch 35 v 15),we worship him for our betterment.


Posted By: bronaz
Date Posted: 10 July 2013 at 7:29am
Dear Naba,
You a missing a very important word which is Angel of Light. He is the Angel of darkness. Your definition of Angel is different from the Christian version which holds that they can only make one decision and that it is permanent, which is why Lucifer(name of Satan) became a devil .
have you ever spoken to a devil...
I have... and I cast them out in the name of Jesus
and it is the same as it is written in the Bible specially the Gospels.
So go ahead and believe what you want...I have read the truth and expeirienced it, which is why I can tell you that Islam is on the wrong track.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 July 2013 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by NABA

  God died???it is truly illogical!!!!!


24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it remains only a grain: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. - the words of Yeshua


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 24 July 2013 at 2:01am
Hear o israel your lord my lord is one God (bible mark 12:29)-words of Jesus Christ(pbuh), Allah is one, Allah is eternal, he is neither born nor givevbirth, there is nothing like him (ch 112 v 1-4 from Quran).


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 July 2013 at 11:54am
Originally posted by NABA

Hear o israel your lord my lord is one God (bible mark 12:29)-words of Jesus Christ(pbuh), Allah is one, Allah is eternal, he is neither born nor givevbirth, there is nothing like him (ch 112 v 1-4 from Quran).

Greetings NABA,

I don't think it was possible to convey the depth and meaning in all of Yeshua's words to us.  I think there is a great deal we can not understand about God and Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit.  Much of what Yeshua spoke was a mystery to those to whom He spoke His words... a puzzle to man and his limited understanding. The resurrection revealed a great deal of the mystery, but it is still a puzzle to the limited mind of man.
You have to know all of His words, to glean the fullness of the message... and you have to be able to accept a bit of mystery... things that we will not understand until we meet our Maker. Smile

Salaam,
Caringheart

Did you see my post to you from July 9?


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 24 July 2013 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 Experiential
 
There were Christians and Jews in Arabia long before the time of Mohammad. Mohammad knew the stories from the Torah and Injil through word of mouth. How else would he have known about all of the stories and prophets from the Torah and Injil. Including the creation story.

Not being able to read or write had nothing to do with it.


 My Reply


 Let me put forward some questions:

 "Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) might have learned all that?

It is known that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)'s claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name of the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil, etc. Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterizes tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?

What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?

How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

It is known that some of the Qur'anic revelations to Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) were revealed in the presence of people. The Qur’an was revealed over the span of 23 years. Where then was that mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam), who was constantly surrounded by companions, was able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

 


 
 
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I never said that Mohammad had a special teacher (s).

I accept that Mohamad had ‘revelations’ or hallucinations when he was having his epileptic fits.

The Torah and Injil were well known by Mohamad.

Mohamad travelled a lot as a boy and as a trader. Of course he was exposed to Jews and Christians and what they believed. Look at the tradition of the Christian monk Bahira who was supposed to have influenced Mohamad.

Look at the contact Mohamad had with the Christians of Ethiopia the Cristians of Najran and the Byzantine Christians.

Look at the dealings he had with the local Jews of his own area. Of course he knew their stories and beliefs.

 

You ask - How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

 

Well actually many Jews and Christians did not believe in his ‘new message’ !



Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 26 July 2013 at 3:05am
If v take ur logic that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) knew ingil then y there are no faults in Quran as i quoted faults from bible in other thread to u.how cum Quran a flawless revelation written by human?? This again proves ur arguement wrong!!! Quran is the last revelation by Allah.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 01 August 2013 at 12:02am
Originally posted by NABA

If v take ur logic that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) knew ingil then y there are no faults in Quran as i quoted faults from bible in other thread to u.how cum Quran a flawless revelation written by human?? This again proves ur arguement wrong!!! Quran is the last revelation by Allah.

I don’t see what you are trying to say in if Prophet Muhammad  knew the Injil, then why are there no faults in the Quran ?

Who says there are no faults in the Quran? Only Muslims. You still have not adequately responded to the silly verses like Soloman and the ants and the sun setting in muddy pond.

How is the Quran faultless when most Muslims can’t even understand Arabic. How can a miracle book be tied just to one language. That’s a fault in itself.

 

I replied to you about the Bible already. What I said was  

yes there are faults. That is because it was written by man but inspired by God.

This is different from the Muslim idea that the Quran is the ‘exact word of God’



Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 04 August 2013 at 8:15am
U yourself saying that bible is written by man inspired by God,y we listen to the man y not our creator Allah?I answered you satisfactorily about prophet Solomon(pbuh) and ants,I proved U wrong about ur view that ants communicate only by signals,moreover I also want to quote,that in many translations are different,few say sun is in the mud or sun is in black sea.i want to ask you suppose we go to a beach in the evening and we c that sun is setting,some may say sun is sinking.but does it really sink???does sun really sets???answer to this question is in ch 3 v 7-Allah says that there are some verses which may have different meanings,Allah in several places say that Qur'an is for those who understand.Allah has given us wisdom.in the verse he reached the setting of the sun means he reached the place where sun sets.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 August 2013 at 10:56am
Originally posted by NABA

...
 in many translations are different,few say sun is in the mud or sun is in black sea.i want to ask you suppose we go to a beach in the evening and we c that sun is setting,some may say sun is sinking.but does it really sink???does sun really sets???answer to this question is in ch 3 v 7-Allah says that there are some verses which may have different meanings,Allah in several places say that Qur'an is for those who understand.Allah has given us wisdom.in the verse he reached the setting of the sun means he reached the place where sun sets.


As far as I can see, this only means that Muhammad once saw the sun going down over the Mediterranean sea.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 August 2013 at 11:53am
Can anyone tell me what the following verses of the qur'an are supposed to mean?  What are they referring to?  And what do they have to do with the Sun?

from 91 The Sun

91:11 (The tribe of) Thamud denied (the truth) in their rebellious pride,
91:12 When the basest of them broke forth
91:13 And the messenger of Allah said: It is the she-camel of Allah, so let her drink!
91:14 But they denied him, and they hamstrung her, so Allah doomed them for their sin and rased (their dwellings).

Shukran and Salaam.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 8:02am
The tribe of Thamud denied the prophet salih(pbuh) because of their rebellious attitude.prophet Salih(pbuh) used to ride on she-camel and the unbelievers always put obstacles in front of her,they denied prophet Salih(pbuh) and Allah gave them severe punishment.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 12:05pm
Greetings NABA,

Shukran.
I thought when the qur'an referred to 'the messenger of allah' it meant Muhammad.  I did not know that there were other men of arabia that were considered prophets.
Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 4:15am
Wa Salaam caringheart, Allah says in surah Al Rad ch 13 v 38-Allah had send prophets at different times but these prophets were for only a specific place and for specific period of time.prophet Muhammad S.A.W (pbuh) is the prophet for whole of humanity and is till the day of judgement.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 15 August 2013 at 2:24am
Originally posted by NABA

U yourself saying that bible is written by man inspired by God,y we listen to the man y not our creator Allah?I answered you satisfactorily about prophet Solomon(pbuh) and ants,I proved U wrong about ur view that ants communicate only by signals,moreover I also want to quote,that in many translations are different,few say sun is in the mud or sun is in black sea.i want to ask you suppose we go to a beach in the evening and we c that sun is setting,some may say sun is sinking.but does it really sink???does sun really sets???answer to this question is in ch 3 v 7-Allah says that there are some verses which may have different meanings,Allah in several places say that Qur'an is for those who understand.Allah has given us wisdom.in the verse he reached the setting of the sun means he reached the place where sun sets.

The Bible is inspired by God.

 

So what is the miracle here? That Solomon can understand animals or that ants can talk?

You say the miracle was Solomon understanding animals. I am saying ants do not talk.

Stridulation is nothing but a mechanical act.

 

The fact remains – even if Solomon could understand animals - ants do not talk. They do not say …O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not.

Sura 27:18-19

This is just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science.

 

Also it is not mentioned in the Torah or Injil that Solomon could understand animals and the Torah and Injil are much older than the Quran. So why should I believe the Quran?

 

You talk about ch 3 v 7. How convenient. So if you cannot explain something you just quote ch 3 v 7.

So is the Quran the literal reliable word of God then?

 

Regarding the sun and the muddy pond. Malik, Pickthall and  Yusaf Ali are all reliable translations.

They all say -

 

when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring...

No “as if” !

 

Do you understand Arabic? Most Muslims cannot.

If you have to read and understand Arabic to understand the ‘Word of God’ then how can this be the reliable Word of God ?



Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 18 August 2013 at 3:10am
yes I do,but I say I m not a scholar,and I m and I will b a student in the field of Qur'an and Arabic till the end of my life,ch 3 v 7 meaning is that there are many meaning of Arabic word,and i quote U already that whenever we reach the beach we normally say we reach the setting of sun but does the sun really sets??no it moves in an orbit in specific period of time,that's what Allah says in ch 36 v 38.u haven't answer my query regarding book of genesis verses!!!!


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 08 September 2013 at 12:02pm
Ibn Kathir: Story of Prophet Salih (pbuh)

After the destruction of the Ad, the tribe of Thamud succeeded them in power and glory. They also fell to idol-worshipping. As their material wealth increased so, too, did their evil ways while their virtue decreased. Like the people of Ad, they erected huge buildings on the plains and hewed beautiful homes out of the hills. Tyranny and oppression became prevalent as evil men ruled the land.

So Allah sent unto them His Prophet Salih (PBUH), a man from among them. His name was Salih Ibn Ubeid, Ibn Maseh, Ibn Ubeid, Ibn Hader, Ibn Thamud, Ibn Ather, Ibn Eram, Ibn Noah. He called his people to worship Allah alone, and to not associate partners with Him. While some of them believed him, the majority of them disbelieved and harmed him by both words and deeds. Salih directed them: "O my people! Worship Allah, you have no other Ilah (god) but Him." (Ch 11:61)

Salih was known for his wisdom, purity and goodness and had been greatly respected by his people before Allah's revelation came to him. Salih's people said to him: "O Salih! You have been among us as a figure of good hope and we wished for you to be our chief, till this, new thing which you have brought that we leave our gods and worship your God (Allah) alone! Do you now forbid us the worship of what our fathers have worshipped? But we are really in grave doubt as to that which you invite us to monotheism." (CH 11:62 Quran).

they merely wanted to worship the same gods as their fathers had, with no reason, no proof, no thought. The proof of Salih's (PBUH) message was evident, but despite this it was obvious that most of his people did not believe him. They doubted his words, thinking he was charmed, and they saw that he would not stop preaching. Fearing that his followers would increase, they tried to put him off by assigning him an important task; to prove that he was a messenger of Allah by performing a miracle. Let a unique she camel issue from the mountains.

Allah granted Salih this miracle and a huge, unique, she camel appeared from the direction of the mountain. The Quranic commentators said that the people of Thamud gathered on a certain day at their meeting place, and the prophet Salih (PBUH) came and addressed them to believe in Allah, reminding them of the favors Allah had granted them.

Then pointing at a rock, they demanded: "Ask your Lord to make a she camel, which must be 10 months pregnant, tall and attractive, issue from the rock for us."

Salih replied: "Look now! If Allah sends you what you have requested, just as you have described, will you believe in that which I have come to you with and have faith in the message I have been sent with?"

They answered: "Yes."

So he took a vow from them on this, then prayed to Allah the Almighty to grant their request. Allah ordered the distant rock to split asunder, to bringing forth a great ten month pregnant she camel. When their eyes set on it, they were amazed. They saw a great thing, a wonderful sight, a dazzling power and clear evidence!

A number of Salih's people believed, yet most of them continued in their disbelief, stubbornness, and going astray. Allah the Almighty said: We sent the she camel to Thamud as a clear sign, but they did her wrong. (Ch 17:59) and also: Verily the dwellers of Al Hijr (the rocky tract) denied the Messengers. We gave them Our Signs, but they were averse to them. (Ch 15:80-81 Quran)

There are a number of ancient accounts of this camel and its miraculous nature. It was said that the she camel was miraculous because a rock in the mountain split open and it came forth from it, followed by its young offspring. Other accounts said that the she camel used to drink all the water in the wells in one day, and no other animals could approach the water. Still others claimed that the she camel produced milk sufficient for all the people to drink, on the same day that it drank all the water, leaving none for them.

At first, the people of Thamud were greatly surprised when the she camel issued from the mountain rocks. It was a blessed camel, and its milk sufficient for thousands of men, women and children. If it slept in a place that place was abandoned by other animals. Thus it was obvious that is was not an ordinary camel, but one of Allah's signs. It lived among Salih's people, some of whom believed in Allah while the majority continued in their obstinacy and disbelief.

Their hatred of Salih turned towards the blessed she camel and became centered on it. A conspiracy started to be hatched against the camel by the disbeliveers, and they secretly plotted against it.

Salih feared that they might kill the camel, so he warned them: "O my people! This she camel of Allah is a sign to you, leave her to feed on Allah's earth, and touch her not with evil lest a near torment will seize you." (Ch 11:64 Quran)

For awhile, Salih's people let the camel graze and drink freely, but in their hearts they hated it. However, the miraculous appearance of the unique camel caused many to become Salih's followers, and they clung to their belief in Allah.

the disbeliveers now began complaining that this huge she camel with its unusual qualities drank most of the water and frightened their cattle.

They laid a plot to kill the camel, and sought the help of their women folk to tempt the men to carry out their commands. Saduq bint of Mahya, who was from a rich and noble family, offered herself to a young man named Masrai Ibn Mahraj on condition that he hamstring the camel. Aniza, an old woman, offered one of her daughters to a young man, Qudar Ibn Saluf, in return for killing the camel. Naturally these young men were tempted and set about finding seven others to assist them.

They watched the camel closely, observing all its movements. As the she camel came to drink at the well, Masarai shot it in the leg with an arrow. It tried to escape but was hampered by the arrow. Qudar followed the camel and struck it with a sword in the other leg. As it fell to the ground, he pierced it with his sword.

The killers were given a hero's welcome,cheered with songs and poetry composed in their praise. In their arrogance they mocked Salih, but he warned them: "Enjoy life for 3 more days then the punishment will descend upon you." Salih was hoping that they would see the folly of their ways and change their attitude before the 3 days went out.

"Why 3 days?" they asked. "Let the punishment come as quickly as possible."

He pleaded with them: "My people, why do you hasten to evil rather than good? Why do not you ask pardon of Allah so that you may receive mercy?"

They replied: "We see your presence and that of your followers as bringing evil on us."

Almighty Allah related their story: And indeed We sent to Thamud their brother Salih, saying "Worship Allah Alone and none else." Then look! They became two parties (believers and disbeliveers) quarreling with each other.

He said: "O my people! Why do you seek to hasten the evil (torment) before the good (Allah's Mercy)? Why seek you not the Forgiveness of Allah, that you may receive mercy?" They said: We augur till omen from you and those with you." he said: "Your ill omen is with Allah; nay, but you are a people that are being tested."

And there were in the city nine men (from the sons of their chiefs), who made mischief in the land, and would not reform. They said: "Swear to another by Allah that we shall make a secret night attack on him and his household, and afterwards we will surely say to his near relatives: "We witnessed not the destruction of his household, and verily! We are telling the truth.""

So they plotted a plot, and We planned a plan, while they perceived not. Then see how was the end of their plot! Verily! We destroyed them and their nation, all together. These are their houses in utter ruin, for they did wrong. Verily, in this is indeed an Ayah (a lesson or a sign) for people who know. We saved those who believed, and used to fear and obey Allah. (Ch 27:45-53 Quran)

They also plotted to kill Salih and his household as Almighty Allah stated: "So they ploa plot, and We planned a plan, while they perceived not." (Ch 27:50 Quran) Allah saved Salih and his followers from their wicked plans. Heavy hearted, they left the evil doers and moved to another place.

Three days after Salih's warning, thunderbolts filled the air, followed by severe earthquakes which destroyed the entire tribe and its homeland. The land was violently shaken, destroying all living creatures in it. There was one terrific cry which had hardly ended when the disbeliveers of Salih's people were struck dead, one and all, at the same time. Neither their strong buildings nor their rock hewn homes could protect them.

Allah the Exalted said: To Thamud people We sent their brother Salih. HE said: "O my people! Worship Allah, you have no other Ilah (god) but Him (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah). Indeed there has come to you a clear sign ( the miracle of the coming out of a huge she camel from the midst of a rock) from your Lord. This she camel of Allah is a sign unto you so you leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and touch her not with harm, lest a painful torment should size you. Remember when He made you successors after Ad people and gave you habitations in the land, you build for yourselves palaces in plains and carve out homes in the mountains. So remember the graces bestowed upon you from Allah, and do not go about making mischief on the earth."

the leaders of those who were arrogant among his people said to those who were counted weak to such of them as believed: "Know you that Salih is one sent from his Lord." They said: "We indeed believe in that with which he has been sent." Those who were arrogant said: "Verily, we disbelieve in that which you believe in."

So they killed the she camel and insolently defied the Commandment of their Lord, and said: "O Salih! Bring about your threats if you are indeed one of the Messengers (of Allah)." So the earthquakes seized them and they lay dead, prostrate in their homes. Then he (Salih) turned from them, and said: "O my people! I have indeed conveyed to you the Message of my Lord, and have give you good advise but you like not good advisers." (Ch 7:73-79 Quran)

All were destroyed before they realized what was happening. As for the people who believed in the message of Salih (PBUH), they were saved because they had left the place.

Ibn Umar narrated that while the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was passing by Thamud's houses on his way to the battle of Tabuk, he stopped together with the people there. the people fetched water from the wells from which the people of Thamud used to drink. They prepared their dough (for baking) and filled their water skins from it (the water from the wells). The Prophet of Allah (PBUH) ordered them to empty the water skins and give the prepared dough to the camels. Then he went away with them until they stopped at the well from which the she camel (of Salih) used to drink. He warned them against entering upon the people that had been punished, saying "I fear that you may be affected by what afflicted them; so do no enter upon them."



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