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surah 2

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Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Printed Date: 22 November 2014 at 3:34pm


Topic: surah 2
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: surah 2
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 3:42pm
As I was listening to surah 2 today...
Who are the following verses meant to refer to?
"And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only."  (surah 2:11)
Who is this meant to refer to?
"And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock. " (surah 2:14)
and who does this refer to?

and,
"Allah (Himself) doth mock"  ?  (2:15)
"Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness"  ?  (2:17)


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever



Replies:
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 8:19pm
surah 2
And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones. (24)

 And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide. (25)

Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat or anything above that. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude?


Can anyone please explain these verses to me?  I can not derive any meaning from them.
Thanks.

and from this one
;

How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return. (28)

it is apparent that resurrection was being supported.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 2:09am
Originally posted by Caringheart

surah 2
And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones. (24)

 And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide. (25)

Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat or anything above that. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude?


Can anyone please explain these verses to me?  I can not derive any meaning from them.
Thanks.

and from this one
;

How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return. (28)

it is apparent that resurrection was being supported.
 
And if you do not, do what was mentioned because you are incapable, and you will not (a parenthetical statement), that is, never [will you be able to], because of its inimitability, then fear, through belief in God and [belief] that this is not the words of a human, the Fire, whose fuel is men, disbelievers, and stones, like their very idols, indicating that its heat is extreme, since it burns with the [stones] mentioned, unlike the fires of this world that burn with wood and similar materials; prepared, and made ready, for disbelievers, so that they are punished in it (this [phrase, u‘iddat li’l-kāfirīna, ‘prepared for disbelievers’] is either a new sentence or a sustained circumstantial qualifier).
2:24
 
And give good tidings to, inform, those who believe, who have faith in God, and perform righteous deeds, such as the obligatory and supererogatory [rituals], that theirs shall be Gardens, of trees, and habitations, underneath which, that is, underneath these trees and palaces, rivers run (tajrī min tahtihā’l-anhāru), that is, there are waters in it (al-nahr is the place in which water flows [and is so called] because the water carves [yanhar] its way through it; the reference to it as ‘running’ is figurative); whensoever they are provided with fruits therefrom, that is, whenever they are given to eat from these gardens, they shall say, ‘This is what, that is, the like of what we were provided with before’, that is, before this, in Paradise, since its fruits are similar (and this is evidenced by [the following statement]): they shall be given it, the provision, in perfect semblance, that is, resembling one another in colour, but different in taste; and there for them shall be spouses, of houris and others, purified, from menstruation and impurities; therein they shall abide: dwelling therein forever, neither perishing nor departing therefrom. And when the Jews said, ‘Why does God strike a similitude about flies, where He says, And if a fly should rob them of anything [Q. 22:73] and about a spider, where He says, As the likeness of the spider [Q. 29:41]: what does God want with these vile creatures? God then revealed the following:
2:25
 
How do you, people of Mecca, disbelieve in God, when you were dead, semen inside loins, and He gave you life, in the womb and in this world by breathing Spirit into you (the interrogative here is either intended to provoke amazement at their [persistent] unbelief despite the evidence established, or intended as a rebuke); then He shall make you dead, after your terms of life are completed, then He shall give you life, at the Resurrection, then to Him you shall be returned!, after resurrection, whereupon He shall requite you according to your deeds; and He states, as proof of the Resurrection, when they denied it:
2:28
 
* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:00am
Thank you Abu_Loren,

The first two still have no meaning for me.  Do they have meaning to you, that you can put in your own words, for me to understand?

Thanks,
CH

Also, you did not respond to my first post.  Is there a reason?  Thanks.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Thank you Abu_Loren,

The first two still have no meaning for me.  Do they have meaning to you, that you can put in your own words, for me to understand?

Thanks,
CH

Also, you did not respond to my first post.  Is there a reason?  Thanks.
 
You did not provide the verse numbers for them, so I think you meant verses 11 & 13 respectively.
 

Sahih International 

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers." 2:11

And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not. 2:13

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is talking about all the disbelievers. It actually starts in verse 6.
 

Sahih International

 

Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. 2:6

This is all summed up in verse 17.
 

Sahih International

 

Their example is that of one who kindled a fire, but when it illuminated what was around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see. 2:17

Also you might want to try different English translations. I use quran.com as they have English translations from Sahih International, Muhsin Khan, Pickthall, Yusef Ali, Shakir and Dr. Ghali. You can take your pick from all of those.

 


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

As I was listening to surah 2 today...
Who are the following verses meant to refer to?
"And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only."  (surah 2)
Who is this meant to refer to?
"And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock. " (surah 2)

This is a created dialogue which you find few of them in the Qur'an. Trying to associate these kind to specific people in the past will end up the Qur'an as historical book, which is not the intention of the author.

In this dialogue Allah explains that a hypocritical character is part of unbelief. As we know there are silence unbelief, fully declared unbelief and unbelief in disguise. This dialogue explain the last character, the munafik, the hypocrite, the disguised. You read it in the sentence:  "And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe;


and,
"Allah (Himself) doth mock"  ?

I am a Wahdatul wujuder (remember Patheism?), and I have no problem understanding this. Allah is the system in which we are all part of it. Whatever we do - God claims it.


"Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness"  ?

Same as above. When Mr A refused the guidance (light) therefore God took away his light.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 3:17pm
Thank you Abu_Loren,

Yes, I use refer to many different translations.  It's just that no matter how many translations I read I still derive no meaning from alot of the verses.  They often just sound like ramblings.  So I try to come to those who have grown up with these verses to see what they mean to them, in plain language.

Yes, you are correct, it would have been helpful if I had included the verse numbers in my first post.  I have added them. Smile

You say;
God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is talking about all the disbelievers."
and I ask; Does this have a specific connotation in your mind?  To you, who are disbelievers?
"Allah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see."
and yes, who is this allah that blinds people?

Salaam,
Caringheart

Are you able to put the other two(2:24 and 2:26) in your own words that I might understand what they mean to you?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by nothing


This is a created dialogue which you find few of them in the Qur'an. Trying to associate these kind to specific people in the past will end up the Qur'an as historical book, which is not the intention of the author.

Greetings Nothing,

Thanks also for your reply.
Yes, this is what I would hope to discern from the text, but there are those who would assign specific meaning to them also, aren't there?

I can not say what I make of the 'allah is a mocker' explanation, whether is it something I could understand or accept, or what I make of the explanation of his taking away the light.  I appreciate your explanations though.  Thanks.

Salaam,
Caringheart



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 4:30pm
Anyone else feel like listening to the qur'an being recited has kind of a hypnotizing effect?
It no doubt induces a feeling of peacefulness, of other worldliness... not knowing the words of course, just hearing the poetic rhythm, the ebb and flow, of the words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXlPBcsnJg


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


You say;
God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is talking about all the disbelievers."
and I ask; Does this have a specific connotation in your mind?  To you, who are disbelievers?
"Allah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see."
and yes, who is this allah that blinds people?

 

The disbelievers are everybody who has not submitted to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala (all non-Muslims).
 
This Allah who blinds people is the One True God Who created the heavens and the earth. Those who disobey Him are left in darkness as they are not within His light. What you STILL do not understand is that by not believing you are choosing this darkness. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala does no injustice to anyone.



Are you able to put the other two(2:24 and 2:26) in your own words that I might understand what they mean to you?

 
2:24 is a continuation of 2:24 so if you are not able to produce a surah like that is in the Holy Qur'an, then you still disbelieve then you will burn in hell. I don't know if I can make it any more simpler.
 
2:26 You are still hung on this "misleads whoh He will..." statement. Again if you do not believe in Him or His message then you are far from his Mercy and satan will have the licence to mislead these non-believers. You must believe first to have His guidance.



 

[/QUOTE]


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 7:45pm
Thank you Abu-Loren for your answers,
The disbelievers are everybody who has not submitted to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala (all non-Muslims).
Question:  Why is the term non-muslims added?  Does it ever say this in the qur'an?
 Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala does no injustice to anyone.

If allah is who you think he is.

I'm still trying to work out the other 2 surah's.

2:24 means if you can't produce poetry, like the poetry of the qur'an, then you must believe in the qur'an, or go to hell?

because it sounds like it is saying that if you can't produce poetry like the qur'an, and at the same time saying that no one can, then prepare for hell.

surah 2:26 sounds like,
allah will not hesitate to make a copy of even a gnat, or of anything larger than that, and that those who don't believe this ask, "What does allah wish by doing such a thing?"

What message is this meant to convey?  Do you know?

Salaam,
Caringheart



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Thank you Abu-Loren for your answers,
The disbelievers are everybody who has not submitted to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala (all non-Muslims).
Question:  Why is the term non-muslims added?  Does it ever say this in the qur'an?
 
Ever since a New Covenent was established with Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) a believer is a person who has submitted his will to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala by saying " I declare that there is no deity except Allah and I also decalre that Muhammad is His slave and messenger". All other belief systems are null and void.
 
[/QUOTE]
 Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala does no injustice to anyone.

If allah is who you think he is.

I'm still trying to work out the other 2 surah's.

2:24 means if you can't produce poetry, like the poetry of the qur'an, then you must believe in the qur'an, or go to hell?

because it sounds like it is saying that if you can't produce poetry like the qur'an, and at the same time saying that no one can, then prepare for hell.

surah 2:26 sounds like,
allah will not hesitate to make a copy of even a gnat, or of anything larger than that, and that those who don't believe this ask, "What does allah wish by doing such a thing?"

What message is this meant to convey?  Do you know?

Salaam,
Caringheart

[/QUOTE]
 
It's all about belief. Even a mustard seed worth will do.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Ever since a New Covenent was established with Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) a believer is a person who has submitted his will to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala by saying " I declare that there is no deity except Allah and I also decalre that Muhammad is His slave and messenger". All other belief systems are null and void.

Who says so... according to whom?  Does it say this in the qur'an?
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by caringheart


 I'm still trying to work out the other 2 surah's.
2:24 means if you can't produce poetry, like the poetry of the qur'an, then you must believe in the qur'an, or go to hell?

because it sounds like it is saying that if you can't produce poetry like the qur'an, and at the same time saying that no one can, then prepare for hell.

surah 2:26 sounds like,
allah will not hesitate to make a copy of even a gnat, or of anything larger than that, and that those who don't believe this ask, "What does allah wish by doing such a thing?"

What message is this meant to convey?  Do you know?

Salaam,
Caringheart


It's all about belief. Even a mustard seed worth will do.

Yes, but what belief?  What is it that you are believing in?  What is the message in these surah's?

Thanks,
CH


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Who says so... according to whom?  Does it say this in the qur'an?
God says so. According to God. All over the Holy Qur'an.


Yes, but what belief?  What is it that you are believing in?  What is the message in these surah's?


 
There is no God but Allah. I believe that there is only ONE God. The message is really simple, that is if you do not believe in Him and do not follow the laws that He has stipulated in the Holy Qur'an then you are a disbeliever and your final destination is hell.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 11:26am
Greetings Abu_Loren,

But you avoid answering the questions.
Citations of where 'it is all over the qur'an'?  I don't think I've seen the words non-muslim anywhere in the qur'an.  Disbeliever, or unbeliever, yes, but 'non-muslim', no.  In fact, I don't think I've seen the word muslim in the qu'ran.
and what meaning is there in those verses of surah 2?
Those were the answers I was seeking.  I know your belief.  I am delving into the scriptures.
Thanks for you answers though.

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 February 2013 at 1:45am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Abu_Loren,

But you avoid answering the questions.
Citations of where 'it is all over the qur'an'?  I don't think I've seen the words non-muslim anywhere in the qur'an.  Disbeliever, or unbeliever, yes, but 'non-muslim', no.  In fact, I don't think I've seen the word muslim in the qu'ran.
and what meaning is there in those verses of surah 2?
Those were the answers I was seeking.  I know your belief.  I am delving into the scriptures.
Thanks for you answers though.

Salaam,
Caringheart
 
I've already answered your questions, it seems that you have a closed heart and brain.



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