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Not a Christian?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24808
Printed Date: 21 December 2014 at 8:40am


Topic: Not a Christian?
Posted By: Nausheen
Subject: Not a Christian?
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by nirvana

who goes to heaven.

this is for all christians and muslims people. will the most compassionate/honest/polite hindu/Buddhist go to hell while the most treacherous/lying/rude/murderous etc muslim/christian goes to heaven?


A Christian who is murderous/rude/lying/treacherous and doesn't try to change it is a person who is consciously and willingly living in sin and does not have the Holy Spirit inside him/her. Regardless of what he or she says, that person does not believe in Christ or try to follow Him, and therefore is not a Christian.


Hello TG,

You said the above in another thread.

Does this mean to believe in Christ is same as to follow him, and any who does not practice christianity cannot claim to be believing in him? Is this correct?

Are you saying that there are no non-practicing christians. In other words either christians are practicing their faith or they are not even regarded as christians?

Thank you.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.



Replies:
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 11:58pm
If I may answer until TG does from my own experience...
Your first question is correct.
 
I took my wife to a non-practicing Christian retirement party. Of course it was held in a bar/restaurant. Much to my surprise, as I opened the door, two men walked out. I know them, I know their wives/children, I even know which mosque they go to. They were both glassey eyed, as in too much to legally drive home. Are they going to heaven?
 
I believe there to be a majority of non-practicing, and semi-practicing Christians will learn the truth on judgement day. They won't like what happens next.


-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 12:53am

Originally posted by TG

Regardless of what he or she says, that person does not believe in Christ or try to follow Him, and therefore is not a Christian.
Originally posted by Nausheen

Does this mean to believe in Christ is same as to follow him, and any who does not practice christianity cannot claim to be believing in him? Is this correct?

Are you saying that there are no non-practicing christians. In other words either christians are practicing their faith or they are not even regarded as christians?

Gidday Nausheen. Welcome back!

I would agree with your interpretation, but only if we suppose that:
(a) "try to follow" means the same as "practice"; and
(b) "or" means the same as "and",

But hey, that's just the pedant in me.   Clown



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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 4:43am
Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by TG

Regardless of what he or she says, that person does not believe in Christ or try to follow Him, and therefore is not a Christian.
Originally posted by Nausheen

Does this mean to believe in Christ is same as to follow him, and any who does not practice christianity cannot claim to be believing in him? Is this correct?


Are you saying that there are no non-practicing christians. In other words either christians are practicing their faith or they are not even regarded as christians?

Gidday Nausheen. Welcome back!


I would agree with your interpretation, but only if we suppose that:(a) "try to follow" means the same as "practice"; and(b) "or"†means the same as†"and",


But hey, that's just the†pedant in me.†† [IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley8.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Clown" />



Thank you for the welcome and the response NS001,

So, you do not have any bad christians, right? There is no weak believer in christianity. One is either a believer or a non-believer, correct? Do all christians believe the same?

Why are you an agonist? were you a christian who did not follow so you were rejected by your community?




-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 4:51am
Originally posted by Webber



If I may answer until TG does from my own experience...
Your first question is correct.
I took my wife to a non-practicing Christian retirement party. Of course it was held in a bar/restaurant. Much to my surprise, as I opened the door, two men walked out. I know them, I know their wives/children, I even know which mosque they go to. They were both glassey eyed, as in too much to legally drive home. Are they going to heaven?


Is that a question? I dont know. Im not in a position to decide about anyone like that - this is how we learn not to judge people in Islam. That is why am asking what is the concept in christianity.


Originally posted by Webber

I believe there to be a majority of non-practicing, and semi-practicing Christians will learn the truth on judgement day. They won't like what happens next.


What will happen on the judgement day is not what I was asking. If they do not practice, does that mean they do not even believe?

If someone has hurt you and comes and says I did not want to hurt you, will you believe him or will you say, since he did hurt you, then that is exactly what he had wanted to do?

So people are always in control of their actions, and the bad guy is a bad guy, while the good guy is a good guy? Is that correct?



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 5:14am
Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by nirvana

who goes to heaven.

this is for all christians and muslims people. will the most compassionate/honest/polite hindu/Buddhist go to hell while the most treacherous/lying/rude/murderous etc muslim/christian goes to heaven?


A Christian who is murderous/rude/lying/treacherous and doesn't try to change it is a person who is consciously and willingly living in sin and does not have the Holy Spirit inside him/her. Regardless of what he or she says, that person does not believe in Christ or try to follow Him, and therefore is not a Christian.


Originally posted by Nausheen

Hello TG,

You said the above in another thread.

Does this mean to believe in Christ is same as to follow him, and any who does not practice christianity cannot claim to be believing in him? Is this correct?

Are you saying that there are no non-practicing christians. In other words either christians are practicing their faith or they are not even regarded as christians?

Thank you.


Salaam Alaikum Nausheen, and thank you for the question.

I think believing in Christ means trying to follow Him, yes. A person who consciously lives in sin and does not try to change and in some cases does not even see it as wrong, or even worse a person who does horrible things like wage wars or abuse children in the name of Jesus or the Christian faith- that person is I believe not a Christian.

I think some Christians struggle with sin more effectively than others do and take prayer and other things Jesus required more seriously than others do, and others less so. As we are all sinners, we all need God's grace and forgiveness and it isn't up to us to condemn others.

I think a Christian can definitely struggle with things like alcholol, drugs, pornography, anger, homosexuality, greed, many other things... but the key thing is that he or she struggles with these things and recognizes they are sins and comes forward to God and repents when he or she falls and tries not to again... and this may require a lot of falling and coming back up and asking for forgiveness and trying to follow better and then falling and asking for forgiveness and trying again... I know a person in my church who was an alcoholic before he became a believer and it took him several years after that to kick the habit... now he never touches a drink, even in moderation. I will be very honest with you, before I became a believer I was using pornography and became a addicted to it... I struggled with pornography for a very long time after I put my faith in Jesus and this terrible habit was eventually broken and I am free from it alhamdullilah. It required a lot of prayer, asking God for forgiveness when I fell, seeking the help of my brothers in Christ to whom I was accountable, setting filters on my computer, talking and praying with my pastor... the addiction was eventually broken and there was a lot of work involved in doing it. Others may struggle with a vice their entire lives and never be entirely free of it.

Christians are not sin-free. But it is one thing to struggle against a sin (and we are all sinners) and another thing to not even acknowledge something is wrong. It's one thing to shamefully recognize one has sinned against God and to decide to do everything to not do so again; and another to say "hey this (insert sinful habit here) is ok. It's "natural"... "everyone does it"... God doesn't even care anyways..."

Do you see what I am saying?

A Christian is someone who has God in the forefront of their lives and tries to live accordingly to what He wants us to do. Some are better at this than others. A lot of us need to do a lot more Bible reading, prayer, fasting, serving the poor, fighting with things that are sinful that we are right now.

The key thing is to put one's faith in Jesus. Putting one's faith in Jesus includes following Him, which involves putting God at the centre of one's life. This takes a lot of struggle and work, and we will always fall short in some ways, which is why we need God's grace.

Hopefully this helped a bit, sorry for the really long answer.


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

So, you do not have any bad christians, right? There is no weak believer in christianity. One is either a believer or a non-believer, correct? Do all christians believe the same?
In my experience there are lots of different types of Christians and plenty of 'weak' ones (in the sense that they appreciate the bible as a work of literature). But I gather your question is directed at fundamentalists, who would have a different opinion.
Why are you an agonist?
I don't see myself as a contestant, if that's what you mean by agonist. I am not trying to "win" something. To the contrary, I am happy to have my errors corrected, if done without malice.
were you a christian who did not follow so you were rejected by your community?
There was no rejecting or rebelling in my case. It's quite normal over here to be agnostic. As far as I can recall, even my grandparents did not attend church - aside from the obligatory "hatch, match & dispatch" services.  Smile


-------------
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 5:35pm
Greetings Nausheen,

I hope you don't mind me jumping in.  I just had a couple of thoughts.
"Do all christians believe the same?"
I think I can safely say that no, all Christians do not believe the same.
Just like Sunni's, Shia's, Sufi's, and Wahabbi's don't believe the same but I am sure that there are 'believers'(and God will be the judge) in each of those groups.

I think what we first have to understand is that 'Christian' is just a label put on people, and Christianity is a name given to a religion, and neither one can, or should, be used to define who an individual is and what is in their heart.  The heart will reflect the true self and God always knows the true self, and God alone can judge.

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Nausheen

So, you do not have any bad christians, right? There is no weak believer in christianity. One is either a believer or a non-believer, correct? Do all christians believe the same?
In my experience there are lots of different types of Christians and plenty of 'weak' ones (in the sense that they appreciate the bible as a work of literature). But I gather your question is directed at fundamentalists, who would have a different opinion.


The original comment was worrisome, and still is. By analogy to how we have a mixture within Muslims I presumed there would be several weak christians who would still be regarded as christians in the broad sense.

Originally posted by nospam101

Originally posted by Nausheen

Why are you an agonist?



I don't see myself as a contestant, if that's what you mean by agonist.


Here is a good laugh for you. I miss-spelled agnostic - It was past midnight at my end when I was typing that post :)

Originally posted by nospam101

There was no rejecting or rebelling in my case. It's quite normal over here to be agnostic. As far as I can recall, even my grandparents did not attend church - aside from the obligatory "hatch, match & dispatch" services.†


Cool Would you explain a little further. Does this mean your grandparents were still christians, although you do not call yourself one?
What beliefs do you follow in particular?

Thank you.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by TG12345



Salaam Alaikum Nausheen, and thank you for the question.


Walaikum Assalam, the pleasure is mine.


Originally posted by TG12345

I think believing in Christ means trying to follow Him, yes. A person who consciously lives in sin and does not try to change and in some cases does not even see it as wrong, or even worse a person who does horrible things like wage wars or abuse children in the name of Jesus or the Christian faith- that person is I believe not a Christian.


Do you mean this person is not following what he believes in, or simply he does not believe what he professes to believe?

To me there is a fine line between the two, thus all the fuss [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" />

Originally posted by TG12345

I think some Christians struggle with sin more effectively than others do and take prayer and other things Jesus required more seriously than others do, and others less so. As we are all sinners, we all need God's grace and forgiveness and it isn't up to us to condemn others.I think a Christian can definitely struggle with things like alcholol, drugs, pornography, anger, homosexuality, greed, many other things... but the key thing is that he or she struggles with these things and recognizes they are sins and comes forward to God and repents when he or she falls and tries not to again... and this may require a lot of falling and coming back up and asking for forgiveness and trying to follow better and then falling and asking for forgiveness and trying again... I know a person in my church who was an alcoholic before he became a believer and it took him several years after that to kick the habit... now he never touches a drink, even in moderation. I will be very honest with you, before I became a believer I was using pornography and became a addicted to it... I struggled with pornography for a very long time after I put my faith in Jesus and this terrible habit was eventually broken and I am free from it alhamdullilah. It required a lot of prayer, asking God for forgiveness when I fell, seeking the help of my brothers in Christ to whom I was accountable, setting filters on my computer, talking and praying with my pastor... the addiction was eventually broken and there was a lot of work involved in doing it. Others may struggle with a vice their entire lives and never be entirely free of it.Christians are not sin-free. But it is one thing to struggle against a sin (and we are all sinners) and another thing to not even acknowledge something is wrong. It's one thing to shamefully recognize one has sinned against God and to decide to do everything to not do so again; and another to say "hey this (insert sinful habit here) is ok. It's "natural"... "everyone does it"... God doesn't even care anyways..."Do you see what I am saying?


Essentially I understand what an ideal christian would be like.

Was thinking though, if a person believes there is one God, who sent prophets and scriptures, and beleives there is heaven and hell - but he does not obey that one God, nor does he follow the scriptures ...
what does christianity say about his belief? [Lets keep his actions aside for a while and focus on what is in the heart.]

Are you saying this person does not have God/Jesus in his heart? That the belief is altogether absent from the heart?

Im asking because I think belief is not equal to practice / following.
I think belief is necessary for practicing, and is incomplete without practicing but its not absent from the heart altogether just because it is not reflected in actions.

Is there any difference between a godless person, and one who does not obey God, though believes there is a Maker who sent messages of guidance to mankind?

Does the christian faith see any fine line between the two kinds?

Thank you for your response. It does help.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,I hope you don't mind me jumping in.† I just had a couple of thoughts.
"Do all christians believe the same?"
I think I can safely say that no, all Christians do not believe the same.Just like Sunni's, Shia's, Sufi's, and Wahabbi's don't believe the same but I am sure that there are 'believers'(and God will be the judge) in each of those groups.



Greetings Caringheart,
Thank you for your input.

Are you saying that for instance, a robber, a murderer, a rapist etc who believes there is God/Jesus -
In reality he does believe though his actions are not in accordance to what he beleives.

Will that be a correct conclusion of your statement?

thank you.


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:58pm
Greetings Nausheen,

If I may jump in again...
"Are you saying this person does not have God/Jesus in his heart? That the belief is altogether absent from the heart? "
I would say, not so much that belief is absent, but that the conscience is dulled.. it is when a person is blinded and misled, by the lies of the world... by the ruler of this world, and this can be done in so many ways.
"I think belief is necessary for practicing, and is incomplete without practicing but its not absent from the heart altogether just because it is not reflected in actions. "
I think this was what TG was referring to when he spoke of weak belief... when one is struggling against his sin nature, they can be said to be in denial... I would say this is comparable to inner Jihad... one has belief but must fight against their sinful nature.

Paul puts it this way;
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in Godís law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but[I do] what I hate I do.

"Is there any difference between a godless person, and one who does not obey God, though believes there is a Maker who sent messages of guidance to mankind? "
Yes.  It is called being in denial... knowing that there is a God but denying the necessity of obeying Him.  Lying to oneself, trusting in the mind of man, believing that belief in God is enough, that God will forgive whatever we do, or that it really doesn't matter... we can find so many reasons not to obey God... essentially believing the lies of this world, falling into the temptations of this world and finding excuses for it, or just plain old having a heart so dulled that it refuses to recognize the sin... just like Pharaoh with his heart too hard to see the truth that was before him.   
It is only in coming out of this denial, recognizing the love of God and what we owe to Him, when we turn ourselves over to God in obedience, that we experience the fullness of His grace and freedom from the sinful nature, and what it truly means to belong to God.

I think the Christian faith always seeks to lead with love to draw a person towards God, towards the recognition of their need for God, and out of their denial.  It is through love that hearts for God are won.  Sometimes, yes, this does mean tough love.  Sometimes it is pain that is needed to drive one towards God.  Pain can either drive one towards God, or away from God, but in the end it is God that we need to be free of our pain... but we must come to choose Him for ourselves.  I think Christians try to be there with love when the pain drives a person to finally seek God, if that is the path a person's life has taken them to find God.

my two cents... Wink



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Nausheen


Greetings Caringheart,
Thank you for your input.

Are you saying that for instance, a robber, a murderer, a rapist etc who believes there is God/Jesus -
In reality he does believe though his actions are not in accordance to what he beleives.

Will that be a correct conclusion of your statement?

thank you.


Greetings Nausheen,

I think only God can plunge the depths of a persons heart.
The correct conclusion is, that it is beyond me to understand when people commit evil, whether God is temporarily displaced from that persons heart, or whether He was never there to begin with.  Only God can know who can be redeemed, and only God can decide when they are forever lost.
I do know that when one commits an evil act they are not acting for God... God is absent at that time.  This does not necessarily mean they can not find Him later.
Does that make sense?

Salaam,
Caringheart



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 6:46pm

Originally posted by nospam001

There was no rejecting or rebelling in my case. It's quite normal over here to be agnostic. As far as I can recall, even my grandparents did not attend church - aside from the obligatory "hatch, match & dispatch" services.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Would you explain a little further. Does this mean your grandparents were still christians, although you do not call yourself one?
Hi Nausheen

It wasn't discussed, but I gather they had already stopped believing before my parents were born.
(Do you stay away from weddings if they happen to be in a church? I assume not. Neither would an agnostic.)
What beliefs do you follow in particular?
The beliefs I 'follow' are all the things that most people take for granted: basic laws of nature, arithmetic & reason, cause and effect, the existence of other minds, and so on. If you mean 'what beliefs do agonistsagnostics follow' then there's a good intro on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism - Wikipedia . For me personally, as I've said, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precambrian_rabbit - J B S Haldane , my views could change tomorrow.


-------------
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.



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