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The Ishmael Complex

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774
Printed Date: 31 October 2014 at 3:57am


Topic: The Ishmael Complex
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: The Ishmael Complex
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 5:38am

Alhamdulilahi Rabbil Alamin Ar Rahman ir Rahim

As’alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was the first born son of the beloved Prophet of God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). Being the first born, Ishmael (Alyhi Salaam) was especially loved by his father as Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) was getting on years.  Prophet Ibrahim made a supplication to God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala to bless his son and his progeny.

Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala heard his pleas and replied :-

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

In the Holy Qur’an we are told by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala that He ordered Prophets Ibrahim and Ishmael (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) to buid the Kaba’a in Mecca. This is where Hagar and Ishmael were ordered to be settled. We can deduce from this blessing that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala would send Prophets and Messengers to the descendants of Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam). We can deduce from the Holy Qur’an that Prophets Hud, Salih, Shua’ib etc (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon them) were the direct descendants of Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam). The final Messenger and Prophet of this line being Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala does not lie. Christians would like to demonise Ishmael and his mother Hagar. They say that because Hagar was the handmaid of Sarah, Prophet Ishmael was born into bondage and has lost his claim to be the son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). They fail to realize or even accept the fact that both sons of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) Prophet Ishmael and Prophet Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) were blessed by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

This deep rooted hatred for the first born son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) is unfounded. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala would only bless Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Slaam) and his progeny.

The Jew and the Arab are indeed brothers.




Replies:
Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 5:17am
Also note from Genesis 16-
Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.” #cen-NIV-392S - S )'>

11 The angel of the Lord #cen-NIV-393T - T )'> also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son. #cen-NIV-393U - U )'>
You shall name him #cen-NIV-393V - V )'> Ishmael, #fen-NIV-393a - a ]'>[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-393a - a ] #cen-NIV-393W - W )'>
    for the Lord has heard of your misery. #cen-NIV-393X - X )'>
12 He will be a wild donkey #cen-NIV-394Y - Y )'> of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    toward #fen-NIV-394b - b ]'>[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-394b - b ] all his brothers. #cen-NIV-394Z - Z )'>”

This has carried forward to today if his descendants are the Muslims and the brothers are the Jews and Christians.  However that also gives credibility to the prophesy of Jesus in the old testament.  There is no prophesy of Muhammed.  That also means all the words of Jesus should be heeded and cannot be superceded by whatever Muhammed said.  This is not how truth is delivered- by multiple revisions.  Even Muhammed revised what he said- early verses are contradicted by later verses.  Jesus warned about false prophets.  Could Muhammed be one?


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 8:16am
Certainly Ishmael was blessed and made a great nation. I haven't noticed any deep rooted hatred for him from Christians though.
What I have seen with Christians, and moreso with Jews is they don't like Muslims making Ishmael the "almost" sacrifice. There isn't enough Quranic evidence to rewrite history, and in the overall it makes no difference to any of us, so it should just be let go.
This is the point of contention though which leads people to read where it says Ishmael was a wild donkey of a man. Muslims panick, swear it must be corrupt, Christians and Jews chuckle about it, Muslims go away mad thinking they all hate Ishmael. Too bad a book wasn't written to follow Ishmael. It would have contained some serious wisdom, or something more to argue about, lol.
 
Was "wild donkey" an expression for temper tantrums? Not uncommon with first borns. Not usually a life long thing either, and does not mean he raised a nation of wild donkeys. Jews and christian would play on that though.
 
Haggar was obviously blessed and given the help she needed to raise him until they were established.
 
Next time you run into a Christian who wants to argue Ishmael as an outcast, you can show him where it says God blessed Ishmael. Shouldn't much matter their response, just ask them if God was wrong to bless him. Then tell them, (with a smile) they should read more.


-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala heard his pleas and replied :-

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Christians would like to demonise Ishmael and his mother Hagar. They say that because Hagar was the handmaid of Sarah, Prophet Ishmael was born into bondage and has lost his claim to be the son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). They fail to realize or even accept the fact that both sons of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) Prophet Ishmael and Prophet Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) were blessed by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

This deep rooted hatred for the first born son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) is unfounded. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala would only bless Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Slaam) and his progeny.

The Jew and the Arab are indeed brothers.



"The Jew and the Arab are indeed brothers."

I agree.
and I refute what you say about 'Christians' demonizing Hagar and Ishmael.
Everything written of Ishmael was written in the old testament(before Jesus and His followers ever came along) and indeed the scriptures say that God would 'multiply the seed' of Ishmael.

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. (Genesis 16)

21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. (Genesis 21)


Ishmael, too, has his part to play.




-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 3:18am
Originally posted by Empiricist

Also note from Genesis 16-
Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.” #cen-NIV-392S - S )'>

11 The angel of the Lord #cen-NIV-393T - T )'> also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son. #cen-NIV-393U - U )'>
You shall name him #cen-NIV-393V - V )'> Ishmael, #fen-NIV-393a - a ]'>[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-393a - ] #cen-NIV-393W - W )'>
    for the Lord has heard of your misery. #cen-NIV-393X - X )'>
12 He will be a wild donkey #cen-NIV-394Y - Y )'> of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    toward #fen-NIV-394b - b ]'>[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-394b - ] all his brothers. #cen-NIV-394Z - Z )'>”

This has carried forward to today if his descendants are the Muslims and the brothers are the Jews and Christians.  However that also gives credibility to the prophesy of Jesus in the old testament.  There is no prophesy of Muhammed.  That also means all the words of Jesus should be heeded and cannot be superceded by whatever Muhammed said.  This is not how truth is delivered- by multiple revisions.  Even Muhammed revised what he said- early verses are contradicted by later verses.  Jesus warned about false prophets.  Could Muhammed be one?
 

Sahih International

 

And mention in the Book, Ishmael. Indeed, he was true to his promise, and he was a messenger and a prophet. 9:54                                                And [mention] Ishmael and Idrees and Dhul-Kifl; all were of the patient. 21:85                                                                                                     And remember Ishmael, Elisha and Dhul-Kifl, and all are among the outstanding. 38:48

This conflicts with your version in the bible. As for the rest of your comment, it's just pure fantasy.



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 3:28am
Originally posted by Webber

What I have seen with Christians, and moreso with Jews is they don't like Muslims making Ishmael the "almost" sacrifice. There isn't enough Quranic evidence to rewrite history, and in the overall it makes no difference to any of us, so it should just be let go.
 
Consider this. Would Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) be more distressed about sacrificing Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) than Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam)?
If God had asked Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) to sacrifice Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam0 then it makes no sense as he already has another son. However, just imagine the impact of sacrifcing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam0 when he was his only child, and that after having him at old age.
I don't know about you but I think Prophet Ibrahim (Alyhi Salaam) would be more distressed in 'almost' losing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam).
 
 
This is the point of contention though which leads people to read where it says Ishmael was a wild donkey of a man. Muslims panick, swear it must be corrupt, Christians and Jews chuckle about it, Muslims go away mad thinking they all hate Ishmael. Too bad a book wasn't written to follow Ishmael. It would have contained some serious wisdom, or something more to argue about, lol.
 
Was "wild donkey" an expression for temper tantrums? Not uncommon with first borns. Not usually a life long thing either, and does not mean he raised a nation of wild donkeys. Jews and christian would play on that though.
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was an accomplished archer. May be he was very adept at hunting and (as usual) the Jews took that to be an aggressive qaulity. Allahu Alaum!
 
 
Haggar was obviously blessed and given the help she needed to raise him until they were established.
 
Next time you run into a Christian who wants to argue Ishmael as an outcast, you can show him where it says God blessed Ishmael. Shouldn't much matter their response, just ask them if God was wrong to bless him. Then tell them, (with a smile) they should read more.
 
Indeed I pray to have patience with Christians on this forum :)


Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 9:05pm

Just calling something pure fantasy just avoids the issue. 

The other comments do not make sense to me. 


Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 21 December 2013 at 5:24am
The Sahih bible version is biased towards Islam and is not credible anywhere else. "My" version is one of many accepted versions of the bible, written well before the Quran and creation of Islam.

If Muslims cannot or will not question or attempt to verify their literature, and always say everything else is wrong, then they have no credibility. They are simply exercising "groupthink". To say that the Quran was not revised is not correct- it had over 50 versions at one time, and the content had many interpretations and contradictions. This is well documented but Muslims are not told this fact because it then discredits the holiness claim. If not the holy word of "Allah" then it is just the writings of a group of men (for political control reasons obviously).   Research in the bible continue to validate its content. But it is also written by man, subject to man's bias. The Quran is written from a collection of other heretical religions at the time, all denying the divinity of Jesus.

Even the evidence for the existence of Muhammad is sparse.

The words about Ishmael are quite prophetic. His descendants, the Muslims, if true, are certainly at odds with the rest of the world.



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 December 2013 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Empiricist

To say that the Quran was not revised is not correct- it had over 50 versions at one time, and the content had many interpretations and contradictions. This is well documented but Muslims are not told this fact because it then discredits the holiness claim.



Thank you. You've just confirmed what it says in one of the Hadiths that people in surrounding areas of Arabia started to produce their own versions of the Qur'an. This is the reason Uthman ordered all the conflicting qur'ans to be burned and to only keep the one authorised by the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi wa Sallam).

Originally posted by Empiricist


If not the holy word of "Allah" then it is just the writings of a group of men (for political control reasons obviously).   Research in the bible continue to validate its content. But it is also written by man, subject to man's bias. The Quran is written from a collection of other heretical religions at the time, all denying the divinity of Jesus.



The favourite topic of all the anti Mulism websites and people jumping on the bandwagon is that the Qur'an is copied from other sources.

Originally posted by Empiricist



Even the evidence for the existence of Muhammad is sparse.



Really? So all the companions of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) were collectively dreaming at the same time and writing down hi life events?

Originally posted by Empiricist


The words about Ishmael are quite prophetic. His descendants, the Muslims, if true, are certainly at odds with the rest of the world.



This is pure fantasy. A handful of politically motivated people decide make war on the perpetrators who invented this "at odds with the rest of the world" cliche and all of a sudden ALL the Muslims of the world are savages hellbent on killing all the kafir. Laughable.

Actually if you have ever visited a Muslim country you will know that it is one of the most peaceful and safe eenvironments to live under. Places like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc are on your 'breaking news' television screen because the USA and its allies create problems in these areas. Then all of a sudden ALL the Muslims of the world are out to get the Westerners.

It's a sad world we live in.


Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 28 December 2013 at 10:04pm
How did Uthman know what the Prophet authorized? He had been dead for many years and had no part in the writing of it, and could not read. Historians looking for evidence of Mohammed existing have not been able to find it from the local history as reported in the Quran. See book "What the Modern Martyr Should Know: Seventy-Two Grapes and Not a Single Virgin: The New Picture of Islam" translated from German. Islam should withstand analysis by independent analysts. The book Rational Conclusions about biblical accuracy is by an Engineer and former atheist, and finds no indication of any significant inaccuracies in the Bible. The Quran Dilemma shows many problems with the Quran. There is no way it can be the word of God or Gabriel or any spirit. It is a collection of the other writings, modified to suit the group of writer's political and personal agendas. (Multiple wives, OK to rape and kill infidels, wives only 12 years old, all the rules to follow, etc.- a major difference from what Jesus taught. Islam simply cannot be anything holy and is by and for man, and not of very good character. Pride is a sin yet it is everywhere in Islam. Honor killings. Killing those who deface a Quran. (this makes it an Idol, does it not? Yet it can be reprinted $1 a dozen. Who cares if it gets burned??? FOOLISH PRIDE!). Deception and lies to further Islam are encouraged. Nobody should trust a Muslim because you never know if they are telling truth. Why should they?

Islam was created based on other groups that also denied the holiness of Jesus, including the Arians.

The truth (or I should say false) of Islam is coming to light. Just a matter of time. Islam is a false ideology for the masses to control them and create a common enemy to keep them united. Yet the Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other- is that peaceful? Why do the Muslims turn to Sharia law in other countries and become belligerent when their population gets large? They just want to make everything Islam and take whatever they can take. They act nice until that time comes. It is all fraud and deception. Deception is synonymous with EVIL and Satan. Maybe it was Satan, not Gabriel? How would anyone know for sure if they were just writing what they thought Muhammad said? And they never put their name to what they wrote either in the Quran. How do you know who wrote what? There were many disagreements before the final version, which was forced on others under threat. At least in the Bible the authors are revealed.
Islam is simply a fraud. It can be nothing else.


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 29 December 2013 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Consider this. Would Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) be more distressed about sacrificing Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) than Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam)?
If God had asked Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) to sacrifice Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam0 then it makes no sense as he already has another son. However, just imagine the impact of sacrifcing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam0 when he was his only child, and that after having him at old age.
I don't know about you but I think Prophet Ibrahim (Alyhi Salaam) would be more distressed in 'almost' losing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam).


I don't think it matters much how many children you have, how would you feel about killing any one of them. I understand what you're saying but don't have any evidence that logic was used.

 
Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was an accomplished archer. May be he was very adept at hunting and (as usual) the Jews took that to be an aggressive qaulity. Allahu Alaum!


That could be. Add that to his feeling of rejection from being sent out and you could have an angry fellow willing to prove it.

[quote]Indeed I pray to have patience with Christians on this forum :)[QUOTE]

In the same sense that I've heard it said that the worst Muslim is better than the best Christian, try the vice versa. Christians have not only been taught that they are the only ones going to heaven they actually believe that down to their denomination, or sub denomination.
I'm with you in prayer for patience ;)




-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 31 December 2013 at 4:42am
Originally posted by Empiricist

How did Uthman know what the Prophet authorized? He had been dead for many years and had no part in the writing of it, and could not read.



I don't mean to offend but this shows your ignorance.

First of all, the Qur'an was memorised wholly by his companions and they diligently checked each other to see what they were reciting were all the same. This is the miracle that you people deny. The Qur'an was sent to an unlettered Prophet and it was through recitation that it was copied onto book form. Indeed the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) could not read.

Originally posted by Empiricist



Historians looking for evidence of Mohammed existing have not been able to find it from the local history as reported in the Quran.


It makes one wonders where they were looking.

Originally posted by Empiricist


   The Quran Dilemma shows many problems with the Quran. There is no way it can be the word of God or Gabriel or any spirit. It is a collection of the other writings, modified to suit the group of writer's political and personal agendas. (Multiple wives, OK to rape and kill infidels, wives only 12 years old, all the rules to follow, etc.- a major difference from what Jesus taught. Islam simply cannot be anything holy and is by and for man, and not of very good character. Pride is a sin yet it is everywhere in Islam. Honor killings. Killing those who deface a Quran. (this makes it an Idol, does it not? Yet it can be reprinted $1 a dozen. Who cares if it gets burned??? FOOLISH PRIDE!). Deception and lies to further Islam are encouraged. Nobody should trust a Muslim because you never know if they are telling truth. Why should they?



These are just your opinions and you can keep them :)


Originally posted by Empiricist


Islam is simply a fraud. It can be nothing else.


This is exactly what a person without any guidance, knowledge or wisdom would say.



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 31 December 2013 at 4:51am
Originally posted by Webber



That could be. Add that to his feeling of rejection from being sent out and you could have an angry fellow willing to prove it.



You've fallen into the trap of those who believe that Ishmael and his mother were banished by Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). This is simply not true. They were taken there first as a test for Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) and then later as a settlement for Ishmael and his descendants. They built the first house of worship which is the ka'ba.

Like the city of Jerusalem and it's surroundings the city of Mecca and it's surroundings are blessed by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

I submit that there there are Muslim haters who deny the holiness of Jerusalem just there are Christian and Jewish haters who deny the holiness of Mecca.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 January 2014 at 12:47pm
I have written an article on my blog, dealing with the story of Ishmael and Isaac (pbut).  In it, I show that the Biblical story is self-contradictory and cannot be reasonably accepted as the truth. 

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/ishmael-and-isaac-in-quran-and-bible.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/ishmael-and-isaac-in-quran-and-bible.html


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 January 2014 at 9:45pm
I am curious, doesn't anyone ever ask themselves...
if the story of Ishmael is correct as muslims believe it, then why is there no record prior to the coming of Muhammad, of Ishmael and Abraham in the lands of Arabia?
Certainly no one claimed to know of this history before Muhammad came.
No one spoke of an Ishmael connection, or an Abraham connection, and certainly someone before Muhammad would have known something about the building of the Ka'abba and whether or not it was connected with the two.

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 19 January 2014 at 5:09am
Originally posted by Caringheart

I am curious, doesn't anyone ever ask themselves... if the story of Ishmael is correct as muslims believe it, then why is there no record prior to the coming of Muhammad, of Ishmael and Abraham in the lands of Arabia?Certainly no one claimed to know of this history before Muhammad came.No one spoke of an Ishmael connection, or an Abraham connection, and certainly someone before Muhammad would have known something about the building of the Ka'abba and whether or not it was connected with the two.Salaam,Caringheart


Curiosity killed the cat!:P

The story of Ishmael is correct because we have it from God and not from a human being, therefore it is without errors.

First of all when Ishmael and his mother Hajjer settled in the valley of Mecca there was nobody living there at the time but eventually people slowly began to settle there and these people were nomads or Bedouin. With this in mind you can imagine that the people were simple folk who were unlettered and did not keep any written records.

This and all the information we have about Prophets Ibrahim and Ishmael (Salatul Asalaam to them) is from the Prophet Mohammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) who received these information from Archangel Jibreel (Alayhi Salaam). I know you will find all this hard to believe because......well you are an unbeliever. No pun intended.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 January 2014 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

  the people were simple folk who were unlettered and did not keep any written records.

Greetings Abu,
Smile

Regarding your statement above...

Still, they would have had spoken records... spoken knowledge, of which they obviously had none or they would have easily accepted what Muhammad was teaching.

Salaam and blessings,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 January 2014 at 3:07am
You are right,that is why Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala reminds us and gives us the correct account of things.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 February 2014 at 5:12am
Let's put this argument to rest. The following verses from the Qur'an clearly says that it was Ismael who was nearly sacrificed so please take note of verse 112.

Sahih International

And [then] he said, "Indeed, I will go to [where I am ordered by] my Lord; He will guide me.
My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous."
So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.
And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
We called to him, "O Abraham,
You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, this was the clear trial.
And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
And We left for him [favorable mention] among later generations:
"Peace upon Abraham."
Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.
And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
37:99-112

If the intended sacrifice was Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam) then verse 112 doesn't make sense.

Salaam


Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 10 August 2014 at 1:55pm
How did the old testament become wrong? Why would it be? Is that the only place it is wrong? There is no evidence of it being wrong other places (or there for that matter).

And to just quote the Quran is not enough. You have no other confirmation. This is not enough evidence. There is no evidence the Quran is correct- if it says it is, and you believe it, then that is circular logic. You need some other evidence to confirm it, and the bible has stood for centuries as accurate and there is much to confirm it. I'm afraid the bible account is considered accurate by me until you can find something reliable that refutes it.   


Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 10 August 2014 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Empiricist

How did Uthman know what the Prophet authorized? He had been dead for many years and had no part in the writing of it, and could not read.



I don't mean to offend but this shows your ignorance.

First of all, the Qur'an was memorised wholly by his companions and they diligently checked each other to see what they were reciting were all the same. This is the miracle that you people deny. The Qur'an was sent to an unlettered Prophet and it was through recitation that it was copied onto book form. Indeed the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) could not read.

Originally posted by Empiricist



Historians looking for evidence of Mohammed existing have not been able to find it from the local history as reported in the Quran.


It makes one wonders where they were looking.

Originally posted by Empiricist


   The Quran Dilemma shows many problems with the Quran. There is no way it can be the word of God or Gabriel or any spirit. It is a collection of the other writings, modified to suit the group of writer's political and personal agendas. (Multiple wives, OK to rape and kill infidels, wives only 12 years old, all the rules to follow, etc.- a major difference from what Jesus taught. Islam simply cannot be anything holy and is by and for man, and not of very good character. Pride is a sin yet it is everywhere in Islam. Honor killings. Killing those who deface a Quran. (this makes it an Idol, does it not? Yet it can be reprinted $1 a dozen. Who cares if it gets burned??? FOOLISH PRIDE!). Deception and lies to further Islam are encouraged. Nobody should trust a Muslim because you never know if they are telling truth. Why should they?



These are just your opinions and you can keep them :)


Originally posted by Empiricist


Islam is simply a fraud. It can be nothing else.


This is exactly what a person without any guidance, knowledge or wisdom would say.

[IMG]smileys/smiley32.gif" align="middle" />


There were several versions of the Quran, over 50, and nobody memorized exactly what Mohammed said, or there would not be 50 versions. How many years after Mohammed died was the Quran written do you think?

You should really go back to the Christian times before Mohammed. This history explains the emergence of many religions which Islam spawned from. And it is sad that the ancient Christian churches in Syria are being destroyed. The evidence is being destroyed.

Also Aramaic was originally used for much of the Quran, not Arabic. When Aramic is used, the meaning of some of the text makes much more sense. The part about the virgins in heaven- those are not Virgins but rather fresh juicy grapes in Aramaic. This was the real meaning. You don't get rewarded for killing others either. There was much revised and distorted that Mohammed did not even utter. It was done for political reasons just as today.   People do not change. Some people want power and money any way they can get it and will sell their soul to get it. There are many hypocrites in any religion.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 August 2014 at 4:19am
Originally posted by Empiricist

How did the old testament become wrong? Why would it be? Is that the only place it is wrong? There is no evidence of it being wrong other places (or there for that matter).



it didn't necessarily became wrong but the Jewish scribes added and deleted from the text of the scriptures, hence it became a different message than the one God Almighty sent down.

Originally posted by Empiricist



And to just quote the Quran is not enough. You have no other confirmation. This is not enough evidence. There is no evidence the Quran is correct- if it says it is, and you believe it, then that is circular logic. You need some other evidence to confirm it, and the bible has stood for centuries as accurate and there is much to confirm it. I'm afraid the bible account is considered accurate by me until you can find something reliable that refutes it.   


Well as believers we think it is enough because we believe it to be the verbatim Word of God Almighty. Now that may not be a good answer to you but then tough.

Actually the Qur'an corrects the mistakes that are found in the Bible.

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Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 August 2014 at 4:23am
Originally posted by Empiricist


There were several versions of the Quran, over 50, and nobody memorized exactly what Mohammed said, or there would not be 50 versions. How many years after Mohammed died was the Quran written do you think?

You should really go back to the Christian times before Mohammed. This history explains the emergence of many religions which Islam spawned from. And it is sad that the ancient Christian churches in Syria are being destroyed. The evidence is being destroyed.

Also Aramaic was originally used for much of the Quran, not Arabic. When Aramic is used, the meaning of some of the text makes much more sense. The part about the virgins in heaven- those are not Virgins but rather fresh juicy grapes in Aramaic. This was the real meaning. You don't get rewarded for killing others either. There was much revised and distorted that Mohammed did not even utter. It was done for political reasons just as today.   People do not change. Some people want power and money any way they can get it and will sell their soul to get it. There are many hypocrites in any religion.


What happened was that when it was decided that the Qur'an should be written down in book form, different people from different parts of the Arabian Peninsula decided to write it in their own dialects. When the companions of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) found out the Caliph at the time Uthman ibn Affan ordered that all the other copies from Baghdad, Yemen etc should be brought to Mecca and burned and only the one authorised version should be circulated to the believers.

This was done fairly soon after the death of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because I don't know if you are aware but the Caliph's after the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) Abu Bakr and Umar died within a short space of time and Uthman was the third Caliph.

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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 August 2014 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Empiricist

There were several versions of the Quran, over 50, and nobody memorized exactly what Mohammed said, or there would not be 50 versions. How many years after Mohammed died was the Quran written do you think?

You should really go back to the Christian times before Mohammed. This history explains the emergence of many religions which Islam spawned from. And it is sad that the ancient Christian churches in Syria are being destroyed. The evidence is being destroyed.

Also Aramaic was originally used for much of the Quran, not Arabic. When Aramic is used, the meaning of some of the text makes much more sense. The part about the virgins in heaven- those are not Virgins but rather fresh juicy grapes in Aramaic. This was the real meaning. You don't get rewarded for killing others either. There was much revised and distorted that Mohammed did not even utter. It was done for political reasons just as today.   People do not change. Some people want power and money any way they can get it and will sell their soul to get it. There are many hypocrites in any religion.


I love it when Christian apologists jump on the latest trends in orientalist attacks on Islam and blindly accept them as fact.  Maybe if you had done some actual "empirical" research, meaning free of any bias (which you obviously have), you would not refer to the work of Christoph Luxenberg, whose claims have largely been refuted by scholars like Angelika Neuwirth and Waled Saleh.  Interested parties can refer to the following review by Neuwirth of Luxenberg's book:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/luxreview1.html - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/luxreview1.html

For Waled Saleh's critique of Luxenberg, you can read "The Quran in Context: Historical and Literary Investigations into the Quranic Milieu", pp. 670-693.

Now, let me comment on the irony of a Christian attacking the Quran, while simultaneously believing in a book known as the Bible, which the last time I checked, has quite a checkered history (at least, that would be the conclusion of any "empirical" analysis).  Since this thread is about the "Ishmael Complex", let us look at that Biblical story as an example of the Bible's less than reputable and trustworthy status.  In the following article, I discussed the contradictions and inconsistencies of the Biblical story of Isaac and Ishmael:
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/ishmael-and-isaac-in-quran-and-bible.html -
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/ishmael-and-isaac-in-quran-and-bible.html

Furthermore, in subsequent articles, I responded to the arguments of another Christian apologist who attempted to respond to my original article:

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_17.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_17.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_19.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_19.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_25.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_25.html
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_27.html -
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_27.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical_9.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical_9.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical_15.html - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical_15.html

I realize that this is a lot of reading, but that is the point.  It takes serious and time-consuming research to ascertain the facts, not selective research blinded by academic bias.   

Based on serious research, I have come to the following conclusion, to borrow "Empiricist's" words (with slight modifications:

Christianity is simply a fraud. It can be nothing else.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Power of GOD
Date Posted: 13 August 2014 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Alhamdulilahi Rabbil Alamin Ar Rahman ir Rahim

As’alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was the first born son of the beloved Prophet of God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). Being the first born, Ishmael (Alyhi Salaam) was especially loved by his father as Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) was getting on years.  Prophet Ibrahim made a supplication to God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala to bless his son and his progeny.

Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala heard his pleas and replied :-

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

In the Holy Qur’an we are told by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala that He ordered Prophets Ibrahim and Ishmael (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) to buid the Kaba’a in Mecca. This is where Hagar and Ishmael were ordered to be settled. We can deduce from this blessing that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala would send Prophets and Messengers to the descendants of Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam). We can deduce from the Holy Qur’an that Prophets Hud, Salih, Shua’ib etc (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon them) were the direct descendants of Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam). The final Messenger and Prophet of this line being Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala does not lie. Christians would like to demonise Ishmael and his mother Hagar. They say that because Hagar was the handmaid of Sarah, Prophet Ishmael was born into bondage and has lost his claim to be the son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). They fail to realize or even accept the fact that both sons of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) Prophet Ishmael and Prophet Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) were blessed by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

This deep rooted hatred for the first born son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) is unfounded. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala would only bless Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Slaam) and his progeny.

The Jew and the Arab are indeed brothers.

 
The History of Tabari claims that the first Arabic speakers were Shem’s grandchildren and great-grandchildren.  Abraham, however, was nine generations after Shem.“God made ‘Ad, ‘Ubayl, Thamud, Judays, ‘Imlaq, Tasm, Umaym, and the children of Joktan b. Eber b. Shelah b. Arpachsad b. Shem b. Noah able to understand Arabic.” (History of Tabari, Vol. 2, p. 18)

“It is said that ‘Imliq was the first to speak Arabic when they departed from Babylon.  They and Jurhum are called the ‘aribah Arabs.” (Hist. Tabari, Vol. 2, pp. 17-18)

 The Arab genealogies were written over 2000 years after the birth of Ishmael, and they did not have reliable genealogies past Muhammad’s forefather Adnan.

 
Genealogical information was so scarce and unreliable that Muhammad needed a “revelation” to find out he was from Mudar

    “Ma'n Ibn 'Isa al-Ashja'i al-Qazzaz (silk-merchant) informed us; he said: Mu'awiyah Ibn Salih informed us on the authority of Yahya Ibn Jabir who had seen some Companions of the Prophet and said: The people of Banu Fuhayrah came to the Prophet and said to him: You belong to us. He replied: Verily, (the archangel) Gabriel has informed me that I belong to Mudar.” (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Volume I, p. 4; this quote was taken from Sam Shamoun’s article “ http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ishmael.htm - ‘Ishmael Is Not the Father Of Muhammad ”)

    Muhammad’s alleged revelatory information was about as far as Muslim scholars could agree upon

    “The genealogists do not differ concerning the descent of our Prophet Muhammad as far as Ma’add b. ‘Adnan.” (Hist. of Tabari, Vol. 6, p. 37)

    Examples of conflicting traditions past Ma’add b. Adnan

      Al-Zubayr b. Bakkar – Yahya b. al-Miqdad al-Zam’i – his paternal uncle Musa b. Ya’qub b. ‘Abdullah b. Wahb b. Zam’ah – his maternal aunt Umm Salamah, the wife of the Prophet: “I heard the messenger of God say, “Ma’add b. ‘Adnan b. Udad b. Zand b. Yara b. A’raq al-Thara.” (History of Tabari, vol. 6, p. 38)

      Al-Harith-Muhammad b. Sa’d – Hisham b. Muhammad – Muhammad b. ‘Abd al-Rahman al- ‘Ajlani – Musa b. Ya’qub al-Zami – his paternal aunt – her grandmother Bint al-Miqdad b. al-Aswad al-Bahrani: The Messenger of God said, “Ma’add b. ‘Adnan b. Udad b. Yara b. A’raq al-Thara” (History of Tabari, vol. 6, p. 38)

In regard to the time before Adnan Muslims have a very difficult time tying Adnan to Abraham.  Notice they have only a few names (9 while some say only 6) in a list that should span over a thousand years!

Not all Arabs are descendants of Ishmael.  Some Arabs probably are descendants of Ishmael, but it is hard to say who they are since: There were no solid records;  Genealogical questions were answered by consulting an idol;  Islam’s own sources claim that Ishmael’s descendants were scattered.   Muhammad needed to claim a revelation to justify himself being a descendant of Mudar;  There exists no clear link between Mudar and Ishmael.

 

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka'ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying, "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him, "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said, "Yes." She said, "Then He will not neglect us," and returned while Abraham proceeded onwards, and on reaching the Thaniya where they could not see him, he faced the Ka'ba, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayers:



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 15 August 2014 at 12:07am
You can copy and paste Sam Shamoun and any other anti Muslim all you want but that doesn't make it right.

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Posted By: Power of GOD
Date Posted: 15 August 2014 at 3:46am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

You can copy and paste Sam Shamoun and any other anti Muslim all you want but that doesn't make it right.
 
It doesn't matter where I get it is the truth is the truth no matter where and how Sam Shamoun eyes is very wide open so is the muslims who accept Christ as thier saviour and convert to Christianity.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 15 August 2014 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

You can copy and paste Sam Shamoun and any other anti Muslim all you want but that doesn't make it right.


LOL Well, what else do you expect him to do?  Some people prefer to sit back and be spoon-fed a bunch of lies instead of doing honest research.  They need to feel that everyone else is wrong, and they are right.  They need to satisfy their egos!


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Power of GOD
Date Posted: 15 August 2014 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Abu Loren

You can copy and paste Sam Shamoun and any other anti Muslim all you want but that doesn't make it right.


LOL Well, what else do you expect him to do?  Some people prefer to sit back and be spoon-fed a bunch of lies instead of doing honest research.  They need to feel that everyone else is wrong, and they are right.  They need to satisfy their egos!
 
Okay how did you discover that islam is true and Christianity was false please tell me were you born a muslim or were converted to islam tell me you are a very inteligent person do you think God will start a false religion that overshadow the world and after 500 years discovered that he made a huge mistake and started a new religion please answer my question.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 15 August 2014 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by Power of God

Okay how did you discover that islam is true and Christianity was false please tell me were you born a muslim or were converted to islam tell me you are a very inteligent person do you think God will start a false religion that overshadow the world and after 500 years discovered that he made a huge mistake and started a new religion please answer my question.

 
I determined this by doing research. You know, reading scholarly books, and doing some actual investigation, instead of blindly copying material from the internet written by biased pseudo-scholars like your idol Sam Shamoun. 

Anyone who reads the Bible with objectivity would realize that it is a book which is full of historical and scientific errors, exaggerations, myths and contradictions.  This can be plainly observed.  Of course, people like you have been brain-washed from the get-go.  You don't see the clear evidence of the Bible's less than reputable material.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 15 August 2014 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

I determined this by doing research. You know, reading scholarly books, and doing some actual investigation, instead of blindly copying material from the internet written by biased pseudo-scholars like your idol Sam Shamoun. 

Anyone who reads the Bible with objectivity would realize that it is a book which is full of historical and scientific errors, exaggerations, myths and contradictions.  This can be plainly observed.  Of course, people like you have been brain-washed from the get-go.  You don't see the clear evidence of the Bible's less than reputable material.

 
By the way, you can check out my blog to see several articles I have published on the Bible and the Quran:

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/ - http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Power of GOD
Date Posted: 16 August 2014 at 12:33am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Power of God

Okay how did you discover that islam is true and Christianity was false please tell me were you born a muslim or were converted to islam tell me you are a very inteligent person do you think God will start a false religion that overshadow the world and after 500 years discovered that he made a huge mistake and started a new religion please answer my question.
 
I determined this by doing research. You know, reading scholarly books, and doing some actual investigation, instead of blindly copying material from the internet written by biased pseudo-scholars like your idol Sam Shamoun. 

Anyone who reads the Bible with objectivity would realize that it is a book which is full of historical and scientific errors, exaggerations, myths and contradictions.  This can be plainly observed.  Of course, people like you have been brain-washed from the get-go.  You don't see the clear evidence of the Bible's less than reputable material.
 That doesn't answer my question, why would God start a false religion and the he discovered that he made a mistake? Do you think God will do that answer this for me please.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 16 August 2014 at 3:36am
Originally posted by Power of GOD


Okay how did you discover that islam is true and Christianity was false please tell me were you born a muslim or were converted to islam tell me you are a very inteligent person do you think God will start a false religion that overshadow the world and after 500 years discovered that he made a huge mistake and started a new religion please answer my question.


I discovered that Islam is true by reading the Qur'an. To me a human being cannot produce the Qur'an the wisdom and knowledge contained it it are beyond human capability.

Then slowly over time I discovered that the Hadiths perfectly back up the Qur'an.

You see your outlook on religion is false from the start.

What happened was that the Children of Israel and particularly their scribes added and deleted words from the Bible so it no longer became the Words of God Almighty. Then God Almighty sent Isa ibn Maryam (Alayhi Salaam) the Messiah to the Children of Israel to correct their religion and to take off the shackles that were binding them from what was Halal and Haram but they rejected Isa (Alayhi Salaam). The followers of Isa (Alayhi Salaam) then split into two groups, one following his teaching and the other following the heretical teachings of Paul the self proclaimed thirteen apostle.

Prophet Muhammad( SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was mentioned in the Bible (and believe it or not some Jews were waiting for this Prophet of God in and around Medina in Arabia)).

So Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was sent to mankind and all the creatures of the world as a Mercy from God Almighty and he is the seal of the Prophets meaning that there will not be another Prophet sent from God Almighty. He is the final messenger for humanity.

Islam is not a new religion but it is the only religion sanctioned by God Almighty. All the Prophets of God followed and practiced Islam as their religion. Actually the Qur'an only reminds us of how to worship Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

Further, to be saved one MUST follow the Qur'an and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because it the correct and proper way that a human being should worship our Creator.

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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 August 2014 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Power of God

That doesn't answer my question, why would God start a false religion and the he discovered that he made a mistake? Do you think God will do that answer this for me please.


LOL Who said He started a false religion?  You need to actually read the Quran instead of blindly being spoon-fed by your fellow Christian apologists.  People start false religions, not God. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 18 August 2014 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Caringheart



Greetings Abu Loren,Your reply doesn't say anything but only gives the same response I hear from every muslim... what they are taught.What specifically so impressed you when you read the qur'an?What wisdom did you personally find therein that so impressed you?Shukran and salaam.


It's more than teaching, I think one can't be taught the Qur'an. If it is being taught to ALL the people of the world I'm pretty sure that half the world, if not more, would reject it.

The only way I can answer your question is to say that if one has the guidance of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala then one would recognise His revelation. If the Qur'an was written by a man then there would be much contradiction. :)

Sahih International

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.
4:82

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Posted By: kodoo
Date Posted: 18 August 2014 at 12:23pm
Just pick up a Quran and read it. And then a tafseer of Quran would help more. Please see for instance:

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol1-n1-3/understanding-uniqueness-quran-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari/quranic-outlook - Heart in the Holy Quran


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 August 2014 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


What specifically so impressed you when you read the qur'an?What wisdom did you personally find therein that so impressed you?Shukran and salaam.

The only way I can answer your question is to say that if one has the guidance of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala then one would recognise His revelation. If the Qur'an was written by a man then there would be much contradiction. :)

Sahih International

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.
4:82

Greetings Abu Loren,

But I do find much contradiction in the Qur'an.

asalaam,
Caringheart


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 August 2014 at 5:52pm
Why would the Creator make His Word so that it could not be understood?  Yshwe called simple men to follow Him and they learned the Word.

“In their hearts is a sickness, and God has increased that sickness ...” (2:10)
Why would the Creator increase the sickness of the heart?
It seems to me that the Creator would do all in His power to remove the sickness and increase the purity of heart.
“Prosperous is he who purifies it [the self].” (91:9)

and doesn't this contradict?
“Our Lord, make not our hearts to swerve after Thou hast guided us ...” (3:8)
Does he 'increase the sickness', or does he guide?

Why would the Creator do the following?
“When they swerved, God caused their hearts to swerve ... “(61:5)
“God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a covering ... “(2:7)
“We lay veils upon their hearts lest they understand it ..”. (6:25)
Does the speaker of the qur'an want us to understand and follow the Word of God, or not?

If we are to follow His Word why would our Creator put stumbling blocks in our paths and abilities to do so?

“So does God seal the hearts of the unbelievers.” (7:101)
Why would He seal the hearts of unbelievers?
Yshwe sought to reach the hearts of unbelievers that they might be saved.  
Does it make sense that the Creator wants His creation not to be saved?

Why does the qur'an need so much explaining?  ... explaining that seems an awful lot like rationalizing...


“And help one another to piety and God-fearing, do not help each other to sin and enmity... “(5:2)
this is an excellent teaching, but it also seems an awful lot like a contradiction to some of the other things which the qur'an says.

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 August 2014 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Power of GOD


Okay how did you discover that islam is true and Christianity was false please tell me were you born a muslim or were converted to islam tell me you are a very inteligent person do you think God will start a false religion that overshadow the world and after 500 years discovered that he made a huge mistake and started a new religion please answer my question.


I discovered that Islam is true by reading the Qur'an. To me a human being cannot produce the Qur'an the wisdom and knowledge contained it it are beyond human capability.

Greetings Abu Loren,

I think you are correct, no human being can produce the bits of Truth and Wisdom that are found in the qur'an.  Those bits of Truth and Wisdom came from Yshwe Messiah, Creator, and Word of God.

Muhammad did not bring anything new. The qur'an brought just enough of the Truth(while denying the fullness of it, denying Yshwe) to mislead and deceive many into following a false god... the ruler of this world.

asalaam.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 29 August 2014 at 9:07am
Originally posted by Caringheart




Greetings Abu Loren,I think you are correct, no human being can produce the bits of Truth and Wisdom that are found in the qur'an.  Those bits of Truth and Wisdom came from Yshwe Messiah, Creator, and Word of God.Muhammad did not bring anything new. The qur'an brought just enough of the Truth(while denying the fullness of it, denying Yshwe) to mislead and deceive many into following a false god... the ruler of this world.asalaam.



Immediately you commit shirk by saying that the Messiah Isa (Alayhi Salaam) is the creator.

You are right when you say Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) didn't bring anything new. All the Propehts of God Almighty only brought ONE message including Isa (Alayhi Salaam) and that is that there is only ONE God and to worship Him.

As you have no understanding of the Qur'an it is not a surprise when you say that it is from satan. This is because you are under a cover and it is YOU who is following satan by attributing divinity to a mighty messenger of God Almighty.

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Posted By: Power of GOD
Date Posted: 29 August 2014 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Power of God

That doesn't answer my question, why would God start a false religion and the he discovered that he made a mistake? Do you think God will do that answer this for me please.


LOL Who said He started a false religion?  You need to actually read the Quran instead of blindly being spoon-fed by your fellow Christian apologists.  People start false religions, not God. 
 Show me in the Quran what is true Muhammad could not even read or write Muhammad didn't even had a religious back all that he have done was to glorifiy a pagan god whos name was Allah the god of the Nabataeans, Allah does not came from the bible as muslim apoligist argued

Nabataeans

The name Allah was used by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans - Nabataeans in compound names, such as "Abd Allah" (The Servant/Slave of Allah), "Aush Allah" (The Faith of Allah), "Amat Allah" (The She-Servant of Allah), "Hab Allah" (Beloved of Allah), "Han Allah" (Allah is gracious), "Shalm Allah" (Peace of Allah), while the name "Wahab Allah" (The Gift of Allah) was found throughout the entire region of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean - Nabataean kingdom.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean - Nabataean inscriptions, Allah seems to have been regarded as a "High and Main God", while other deities were considered to be mediators before Allah and of a second status, which was the same case of the worshipers at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba - Kaaba temple at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca - Mecca

Pre-Islamic Meccans

Meccans worshipped him and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-l%C4%81t - Al-lāt , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-%E2%80%98Uzz%C3%A1 - Al-‘Uzzá , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%C4%81t - Manāt as his daughters. Some Jews might considered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzair - Uzair to be his son. Christians and Hanifs used the term 'Bismillah', 'in the name of Allah' and the name Allah to refer to the supreme Deity in Arabic stone inscriptions centuries before Islam

 


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 August 2014 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Power of GOD

Show me in the Quran what is true Muhammad could not even read or write Muhammad didn't even had a religious back all that he have done was to glorifiy a pagan god whos name was Allah the god of the Nabataeans, Allah does not came from the bible as muslim apoligist argued

Nabataeans

The name Allah was used by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans - Abd Allah" (The Servant/Slave of Allah), "Aush Allah" (The Faith of Allah), "Amat Allah" (The She-Servant of Allah), "Hab Allah" (Beloved of Allah), "Han Allah" (Allah is gracious), "Shalm Allah" (Peace of Allah), while the name "Wahab Allah" (The Gift of Allah) was found throughout the entire region of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean - - Nabataean inscriptions, Allah seems to have been regarded as a "High and Main God", while other deities were considered to be mediators before Allah and of a second status, which was the same case of the worshipers at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca - Pre-Islamic Meccans

Meccans worshipped him and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-l%C4%81t - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-%E2%80%98Uzz%C3%A1 - , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%C4%81t - as his daughters. Some Jews might considered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzair - to be his son. Christians and Hanifs used the term 'Bismillah', 'in the name of Allah' and the name Allah to refer to the supreme Deity in Arabic stone inscriptions centuries before Islam



LOL So what's your point with this latest plagiarized post of yours?  The irony is that you refuted yourself with this post because it clearly states:

"Christians and Hanifs used the term 'Bismillah', 'in the name of Allah' and the name Allah to refer to the supreme Deity in Arabic stone inscriptions centuries before Islam."   

Speaking of "pagan gods", are you aware of the origins of the name "Yahweh"?  Why don't you research that?  Here, let me get you started.  Mark S. Smith writes in his book "The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel", pp. 32-33:

"...Yahweh, originally a warrior-god from Sinai/Paran/Edom/Teiman was known separately from El at an early point in early Israel.  Perhaps due to trade with Edom/Midian, Yahweh entered secondarily into the Israelite highland religion."

Shocked


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Power of GOD
Date Posted: 06 September 2014 at 2:10am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Power of GOD

Show me in the Quran what is true Muhammad could not even read or write Muhammad didn't even had a religious back all that he have done was to glorifiy a pagan god whos name was Allah the god of the Nabataeans, Allah does not came from the bible as muslim apoligist argued

Nabataeans

The name Allah was used by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans - Nabataeans in compound names, such as "Abd Allah" (The Servant/Slave of Allah), "Aush Allah" (The Faith of Allah), "Amat Allah" (The She-Servant of Allah), "Hab Allah" (Beloved of Allah), "Han Allah" (Allah is gracious), "Shalm Allah" (Peace of Allah), while the name "Wahab Allah" (The Gift of Allah) was found throughout the entire region of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean - Nabataean kingdom.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean - Nabataean inscriptions, Allah seems to have been regarded as a "High and Main God", while other deities were considered to be mediators before Allah and of a second status, which was the same case of the worshipers at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba - Kaaba temple at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca - Mecca

Pre-Islamic Meccans

Meccans worshipped him and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-l%C4%81t - Al-lāt , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-%E2%80%98Uzz%C3%A1 - Al-‘Uzzá , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%C4%81t - Manāt as his daughters. Some Jews might considered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzair - Uzair to be his son. Christians and Hanifs used the term 'Bismillah', 'in the name of Allah' and the name Allah to refer to the supreme Deity in Arabic stone inscriptions centuries before Islam



LOL So what's your point with this latest plagiarized post of yours?  The irony is that you refuted yourself with this post because it clearly states:

"Christians and Hanifs used the term 'Bismillah', 'in the name of Allah' and the name Allah to refer to the supreme Deity in Arabic stone inscriptions centuries before Islam."   

Speaking of "pagan gods", are you aware of the origins of the name "Yahweh"?  Why don't you research that?  Here, let me get you started.  Mark S. Smith writes in his book "The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel", pp. 32-33:

"...Yahweh, originally a warrior-god from Sinai/Paran/Edom/Teiman was known separately from El at an early point in early Israel.  Perhaps due to trade with Edom/Midian, Yahweh entered secondarily into the Israelite highland religion."

Shocked
Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

YHWH and Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohey Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot ("Lord YHWH of Hosts") and, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts").

Whether the Holy Name (written as YHWH) is derived from Eyheh or whether the two are individual concepts, is a subject of debate amongst historians  and thoelogians .
 
Muhammad never told his followers that his God is the God of "hosts" Allah is only a noun for a god not a specific name for his god.
 

In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH ("I AM HE WHO IS", "I AM WHO AM" or "I AM WHO I AM"), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the "hidden God", his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to men.

I Am that I Am  ehyeh ašer ehyeh IS THE DIRECT TRANSLATION  OF GOD'S NAME
WE MUST CALL GOD ON HIS REAL NAME OR ELSE WE ARE ON A ROAD TO NO WHERE.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Hebrew -


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 September 2014 at 9:20am
Originally posted by Power of God

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

YHWH and Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohey Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot ("Lord YHWH of Hosts") and, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts").

Whether the Holy Name (written as YHWH) is derived from Eyheh or whether the two are individual concepts, is a subject of debate amongst historians  and thoelogians .
 
Muhammad never told his followers that his God is the God of "hosts" Allah is only a noun for a god not a specific name for his god.
 

In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH ("I AM HE WHO IS", "I AM WHO AM" or "I AM WHO I AM"), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the "hidden God", his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to men.

I Am that I Am  ehyeh ašer ehyeh IS THE DIRECT TRANSLATION  OF GOD'S NAME
WE MUST CALL GOD ON HIS REAL NAME OR ELSE WE ARE ON A ROAD TO NO WHERE.


You try to dismiss the fact that the name "Yahweh" has its roots in Edomite culture by copying yet another unnamed source which claims that it is a "subject of debate" among scholars.  Even if this was true, it seems to me that you should be more concerned with this revelation rather than your pseudo-scholarly rants about the Muslim belief in Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He).  As I said, Arab Christians and Jews had no problem referring to God as Allah.  And as scholars like Mark Smith note, the Israelites referred to God as "El" long before they referred to Him as "Yahweh".  The latter was borrowed from Edom/Midian.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Power of GOD
Date Posted: 10 September 2014 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Power of God

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

YHWH and Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohey Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot ("Lord YHWH of Hosts") and, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts").

Whether the Holy Name (written as YHWH) is derived from Eyheh or whether the two are individual concepts, is a subject of debate amongst historians  and thoelogians .
 
Muhammad never told his followers that his God is the God of "hosts" Allah is only a noun for a god not a specific name for his god.
 

In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH ("I AM HE WHO IS", "I AM WHO AM" or "I AM WHO I AM"), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the "hidden God", his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to men.

I Am that I Am  ehyeh ašer ehyeh IS THE DIRECT TRANSLATION  OF GOD'S NAME
WE MUST CALL GOD ON HIS REAL NAME OR ELSE WE ARE ON A ROAD TO NO WHERE.


You try to dismiss the fact that the name "Yahweh" has its roots in Edomite culture by copying yet another unnamed source which claims that it is a "subject of debate" among scholars.  Even if this was true, it seems to me that you should be more concerned with this revelation rather than your pseudo-scholarly rants about the Muslim belief in Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He).  As I said, Arab Christians and Jews had no problem referring to God as Allah.  And as scholars like Mark Smith note, the Israelites referred to God as "El" long before they referred to Him as "Yahweh".  The latter was borrowed from Edom/Midian.
It certainly was because the Edomites was decendants of Esau and Esau was the twin son of Isaac and Isaac was the son Abraham thats why all of was fimiliar with thier real God Yahweh even Ishmial was also worshiping Yahweh so it was not something out of the ordinary .
 
But Edomites become wicked. 
I have loved you,” says Yahweh.

“But you ask, ‘How have You loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares Yahweh. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what Yahweh Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of Yahweh. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is Yahweh—even beyond the borders of Israel!’ (Mal. 1:2-5)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 12 September 2014 at 7:06am
Originally posted by Power of God

It certainly was because the Edomites was decendants of Esau and Esau was the twin son of Isaac and Isaac was the son Abraham thats why all of was fimiliar with thier real God Yahweh even Ishmial was also worshiping Yahweh so it was not something out of the ordinary .
 
But Edomites become wicked. 
I have loved you,” says Yahweh.

“But you ask, ‘How have You loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares Yahweh. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what Yahweh Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of Yahweh. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is Yahweh—even beyond the borders of Israel!’ (Mal. 1:2-5)


So you refer to the Bible to confirm the Bible.  That's called a circular argument. 

The archaeological and historical evidence shows that "Yahweh" was a "warrior-god" that did not originate with Israel, but with Edom.  If the Biblical patriarchs were familiar with "Yahweh", then why is there no evidence of it among the Israelites until much later?  Why does the earliest evidence show that the Israelites referred to God as "El"?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Power of GOD
Date Posted: 12 September 2014 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Power of God

It certainly was because the Edomites was decendants of Esau and Esau was the twin son of Isaac and Isaac was the son Abraham thats why all of was fimiliar with thier real God Yahweh even Ishmial was also worshiping Yahweh so it was not something out of the ordinary .
 
But Edomites become wicked. 
I have loved you,” says Yahweh.

“But you ask, ‘How have You loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares Yahweh. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what Yahweh Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of Yahweh. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is Yahweh—even beyond the borders of Israel!’ (Mal. 1:2-5)


So you refer to the Bible to confirm the Bible.  That's called a circular argument. 

The archaeological and historical evidence shows that "Yahweh" was a "warrior-god" that did not originate with Israel, but with Edom.  If the Biblical patriarchs were familiar with "Yahweh", then why is there no evidence of it among the Israelites until much later?  Why does the earliest evidence show that the Israelites referred to God as "El"?
 Of course you are right Yahwe is the Lord of hosts the Lord of armies so this tells you He is the warrior God.
The patriarchs knew his name since Adam's time cause he said to Moses, I am the God of Abraham,Isac and Jacob.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 13 September 2014 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Power of God

Of course you are right Yahwe is the Lord of hosts the Lord of armies so this tells you He is the warrior God.
The patriarchs knew his name since Adam's time cause he said to Moses, I am the God of Abraham,Isac and Jacob.


This is again a circular argument.  You are basing this on the Bible, but as we have already seen, the earliest evidence contradicts the Bible because it shows that the Israelites originally referred to God as "El", not as "Yahweh".  Therefore, the patriarchs would not have used the name "Yahweh".




-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)




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