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PRETEND CHRISTIANS:OBEY BIBLE LAWS FOR SALVATION

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Printed Date: 21 August 2014 at 3:10pm


Topic: PRETEND CHRISTIANS:OBEY BIBLE LAWS FOR SALVATION
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: PRETEND CHRISTIANS:OBEY BIBLE LAWS FOR SALVATION
Date Posted: 30 January 2013 at 10:29am

old testament

Ezekiel 18
New International Version (NIV)
The One Who Sins Will Die

18 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“‘The parents eat sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

5 “Suppose there is a righteous man
    who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
    or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
    or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
    but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
    but gives his food to the hungry
    and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
    or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
    and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
    and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
    he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.
10 “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things[a] 11 (though the father has done none of them):

“He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor’s wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
13 He lends at interest and takes a profit.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

14 “But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

15 “He does not eat at the mountain shrines
    or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife.
16 He does not oppress anyone
    or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
    but gives his food to the hungry
    and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor
    and takes no interest or profit from them.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!.



new testament

Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, [a]“Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’
21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”



before anyone starts the 'old testament does not apply today' argument



Matthew 5:17-20 New International Version (NIV) The Fulfillment of the Law 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.



Replies:
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 30 January 2013 at 10:40pm
You copy/pasted all this and missed the point. Ezekiel 18...God gives revelation to Ezekiel about the Israelites. Who will live, who will die. Your point is...one man cannot die for another? We know that already, you wasted your time.
 
One man cannot save another including Father save son.
 
Have you run across the verse yet that says "The sins of your fathers will be carried down from generation unto generation."? (something else you could run off with ;)
 
Luke 18...You're just going to leave it at that and not bother to go on to the explanation Jesus gave for what He said??? tsk, tsk. This is Muslim biblical corruption at it's best. Tempts me to find that Quranic verse that talks about the corruption of those who read one thing and convey another message, and what happens to them. If you have the Quran memorized you could probably tell me now.
Us pretend Christians would never know what corruption was if you didn't show us what it looked like.
 
Are you sure you aren't one of those TV evangelists trying to scare the hades out of the American kafir?
 
Oh. You better check out them Pharisees and law teachers, see how bad they were. You wouldn't want to be looking up at them about now. (just a suggestion).
 
Btw, Matt 5: is pretty much all red letter, for a reason. Maybe you should try a different colour for your emphasis in this case. I'll explain if you need.


-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 31 January 2013 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Webber




You copy/pasted all this and missed the point. Ezekiel 18...God gives revelation to Ezekiel about the Israelites. Who will live, who will die. Your point is...one man cannot die for another? We know that already, you wasted your time.
 
One man cannot save another including Father save son.
 
Have you run across the verse yet that says "The sins of your fathers will be carried down from generation unto generation."? (something else you could run off with ;)
 
Luke 18...You're just going to leave it at that and not bother to go on to the explanation Jesus gave for what He said??? tsk, tsk. This is Muslim biblical corruption at it's best. Tempts me to find that Quranic verse that talks about the corruption of those who read one thing and convey another message, and what happens to them. If you have the Quran memorized you could probably tell me now.
Us pretend Christians would never know what corruption was if you didn't show us what it looked like.
 
Are you sure you aren't one of those TV evangelists trying to scare the hades out of the American kafir?
 
Oh. You better check out them Pharisees and law teachers, see how bad they were. You wouldn't want to be looking up at them about now. (just a suggestion).
 
Btw, Matt 5: is pretty much all red letter, for a reason. Maybe you should try a different colour for your emphasis in this case. I'll explain if you need.



are you a christian?


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 31 January 2013 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by Webber




You copy/pasted all this and missed the point. Ezekiel 18...God gives revelation to Ezekiel about the Israelites. Who will live, who will die. Your point is...one man cannot die for another? We know that already, you wasted your time.
 
One man cannot save another including Father save son.
 
Have you run across the verse yet that says "The sins of your fathers will be carried down from generation unto generation."? (something else you could run off with ;)
 
Luke 18...You're just going to leave it at that and not bother to go on to the explanation Jesus gave for what He said??? tsk, tsk. This is Muslim biblical corruption at it's best. Tempts me to find that Quranic verse that talks about the corruption of those who read one thing and convey another message, and what happens to them. If you have the Quran memorized you could probably tell me now.
Us pretend Christians would never know what corruption was if you didn't show us what it looked like.
 
Are you sure you aren't one of those TV evangelists trying to scare the hades out of the American kafir?
 
Oh. You better check out them Pharisees and law teachers, see how bad they were. You wouldn't want to be looking up at them about now. (just a suggestion).
 
Btw, Matt 5: is pretty much all red letter, for a reason. Maybe you should try a different colour for your emphasis in this case. I'll explain if you need.




You copy/pasted all this and missed the pointmy friend, i believe you are the one who missed the point.God gives revelation to Ezekiel about the Israelites. Who will live, who will die.

does anybody need to be told they will die. and those who were told they would not die, are they alive today?

Your point is...one man cannot die for another? We know that already, you wasted your time. One man cannot save another including Father save son.

that is not my point. my point is you are mistaken to think that the Man Jesus died for your sins since GOD said Ezekiel 18:20 New International Version (NIV) 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them

and

Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.




Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 31 January 2013 at 12:36pm
Have you run across the verse yet that says "The sins of your fathers will be carried down from generation unto generation."? (something else you could run off with ;)

would the verses you are talking about be opposing the verses i quoted in Ezekiel?


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 31 January 2013 at 8:12pm
Ezekiel speaks of ordinary men, (Israelites), and you want to use that against a Prophet. Your post actually alters the meaning of the original text. What if it was already corrupted, what more have you done?
This form of Biblical corruption is more dangerous that what any author could have done. Annoys me and those who would prefer the truth.
 
 
BTW, Jesus said in Luke 18...It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
There was a passage in the wall of Jeruselam called the eye of a needle. In order for a camel to pass it would have to be totally on it's knees, stripped of all saddle and load, willing to squeeze through patiently. That would be pretty rough on me, I dunno about a camel. I don't have much to leave behind but I'm not good with small spaces.
 
The point is, use the verses in context and show the whole truth.
 
Not opposing verses, just a contrast from another context, ;)
I'm sure you could mess somebody up with it tho...
 
 
 


-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 01 February 2013 at 12:08am
Not opposing verses, just a contrast from another context, ;) I'm sure you could mess somebody up with it tho...
please explain


Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 08 February 2013 at 8:12pm
Exactly Pharisee behavior, Mahdi.  You wrote what will happen to you.  If it was so simple to interpret then there would not be so many Christians.  You need to do better than this.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 6:14am
Originally posted by Empiricist

Exactly Pharisee behavior, Mahdi.  You wrote what will happen to you.  If it was so simple to interpret then there would not be so many Christians.  You need to do better than this.
what is your view on 'pharisees'?

If it was so simple to interpret then there would not be so many Christians.
most 'christians' do not know what the Bible says. They rely on preachers to tell them what it is 'supposed' to mean. real knowledge of the Bible outside sunday school stories is lacking.


Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 15 February 2013 at 12:09am
I doubt if most Christians do not know what the Bible says.  They may not follow it however.  People are not perfect and all are on a unique spiritual path. 
 
My view on Pharisees is the same as Jesus' view.  He spoke of them often.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 February 2013 at 9:24am
I actually would agree with Mahdi here.  There are many people who go to church who have never spent time reading the Bible, and yet they think they are Christians.  How can they follow Jesus if they don't immerse themselves in God's Word... when they do not 'renew their minds daily' as scripture tells them to.  Without the Word of God the mind soon becomes impure, the person soon gets lost from their way.

Just as I am sure there are many who call themselves muslim and go to mosque, who have no clue what the qur'an says.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 16 February 2013 at 2:39am
Originally posted by Caringheart

I actually would agree with Mahdi here.  There are many people who go to church who have never spent time reading the Bible, and yet they think they are Christians.  How can they follow Jesus if they don't immerse themselves in God's Word... when they do not 'renew their minds daily' as scripture tells them to.  Without the Word of God the mind soon becomes impure, the person soon gets lost from their way.Just as I am sure there are many who call themselves muslim and go to mosque, who have no clue what the qur'an says.
if all people could at least admit to the obvious things, we could get somewhere in these discussions.



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