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BIBLE;JESUS NOT CRUCIFIED

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24745
Printed Date: 24 November 2014 at 6:06pm


Topic: BIBLE;JESUS NOT CRUCIFIED
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: BIBLE;JESUS NOT CRUCIFIED
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 10:32am

Hebrews 5:7
English Standard Version (ESV)
7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus[a] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.



Replies:
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 07 February 2013 at 2:30am
Hi Mahdi read on - Hebrews 5.8-
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
 


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 6:24am
Originally posted by Experiential

Hi Mahdi read on - Hebrews 5.8-
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered

 
and suffering only means dying on the cross?.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:46pm
Partly his suffering was about his death. eg. Hebrews 2.14 ,
Hebrews 13. 12 but also in that he took upon himself all the evil and sin in the world.
 
Hebrews 12:2. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 
God is so Holy that a persons best religious efforts can never be enough to satisfy Him. The Most Holy God.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 February 2013 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


Hebrews 5:7
English Standard Version (ESV)
7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus[a] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.


and he was heard because of his reverence.

Dying on the cross... being crucified... was a long and torturous death.
Jesus was spared in that His Spirit went free from His body after only 3 hours.
"into Your hands I commend My Spirit."  "It is finished."

also, His legs were not broken as was the usual practice.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 13 February 2013 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by Experiential

Partly his suffering was about his death. eg. Hebrews 2.14 ,
Hebrews 13. 12 but also in that he took upon himself all the evil and sin in the world.

 

Hebrews 12:2. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

God is so Holy that a persons best religious efforts can never be enough to satisfy Him. The Most Holy God.
God is so Holy that a persons best religious efforts can never be enough to satisfy Him. The Most Holy God.that is simply an opinion, unless you can show me where God says that.
t he took upon himself all the evil and sin in the world.
nobody's got anything to worry about then. everybody's sins have been covered by Jesus.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 14 February 2013 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Partly his suffering was about his death. eg. Hebrews 2.14 ,
Hebrews 13. 12 but also in that he took upon himself all the evil and sin in the world.

 

Hebrews 12:2. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

God is so Holy that a persons best religious efforts can never be enough to satisfy Him. The Most Holy God.
God is so Holy that a persons best religious efforts can never be enough to satisfy Him. The Most Holy God.that is simply an opinion, unless you can show me where God says that.
t he took upon himself all the evil and sin in the world.
nobody's got anything to worry about then. everybody's sins have been covered by Jesus.

Mahdi Said

That is simply an opinion, unless you can show me where God says that.

My Reply

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.

Titus 3:5.

 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 2-8,9

 

Mahdi Said

nobody's got anything to worry about then. everybody's sins have been covered by Jesus.

My Reply

Yes your sins are covered by Christ Jesus The Messiah provided you ask Him into your life as your Lord.



Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 19 February 2013 at 8:45am
The operative word in the verse which Mahdi misuses is that God could save Jesus from death, which He did not do, as He let Jesus die, but He DID rescue Him from death afterwards, through the Resurrection. 

The suffering delineated in Hebrews 5:8 is explained throughout the Book of Hebrews as being that of death.  "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed to take away the sins of many people."  (Hebrews 9:27-28)

It's really bizarre seeing Hebrews being used to 'prove' that Jesus did not die according to the Bible!  Wink

Also, you still have to repent fom your sins for God the Father to be prepared to count Jesus as having died in your place, or tough. 


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 19 February 2013 at 9:57pm
Mahdi, you sound like the rapper kids in the hall. Just get a great big bling cross on a gangsta chain. Pull your pants down half way, wear your baseball cap almost backwards. That's what they told me. Jesus saves man, what more do you need to know?

-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 12:12pm
. double post


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


Hebrews 5:7
English Standard Version (ESV)
7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus[a] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.


Salam,
yes, according to the words written in the present day Bible you quoted it appears that Jesus did not die on the cross, rather God saved him from such a humiliating death. As a beloved servant of God, he was rescued as we know from the Quran, God's final word.
These words are not unclear: "that was able to save him from death"

Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 12:24pm

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.


11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

(the words of Jesus)

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


<span id="en-KJV-26499">17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26500">18 No
man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay
it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I
received of my Father.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26501">19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26501"></span>

<span id="en-KJV-26493">11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26495">13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26496">14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26497">15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26497">(the words of Jesus)</span>




Caringheart, i do not know the chapter from which you quoted, but the verses below clearly show that Jesus begged to be spared from death, 3times at that, while in a state of distress/anxiety to the point of death.[ Yet some will still claim he is God]

Mark 14:32-42 They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.” 35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” 37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” 39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him. 41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart


17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay
it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I
received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.


11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

(the words of Jesus)

Caringheart, i do not know the chapter from which you quoted, but the verses below clearly show that Jesus begged to be spared from death, 3times at that, while in a state of distress/anxiety to the point of death.[ Yet some will still claim he is God]

Mark 14:32-42 They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.” 35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” 37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” 39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him. 41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

Greetings Mahdi,

You can just go on interpreting the way you want to, and never open your eyes to the Truth if that's what you want.

This whole thread has already addressed that part of the issue that you wish to keep returning to as though it had not been addressed.

Salaam,
CH


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 21 February 2013 at 1:33am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart


17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No
man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay
it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I
received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

(the words of Jesus)

Caringheart, i do not know the chapter from which you quoted, but the verses below clearly show that Jesus begged to be spared from death, 3times at that, while in a state of distress/anxiety to the point of death.[ Yet some will still claim he is God]

Mark 14:32-42 They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.” 35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” 37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” 39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him. 41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”
Greetings Mahdi,You can just go on interpreting the way you want to, and never open your eyes to the Truth if that's what you want.This whole thread has already addressed that part of the issue that you wish to keep returning to as though it had not been addressed.Salaam,CH
do not get mad when i quote verses from the Bible to refute your claims.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 February 2013 at 6:42pm
Greetings Mahdi,

I'm not mad.  You just don't get it and want to sound like a parrot.
Just don't be surprised on judgement day when you are sent a direction you never intended to go. Wink

salaam,
CH


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 23 February 2013 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Mahdi,I'm not mad.  You just don't get it and want to sound like a parrot.Just don't be surprised on judgement day when you are sent a direction you never intended to go. [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" />salaam,CH

thanks for sentencing me to hell. anyway, when i countered your 'he gave his life willingly' point of view, i countered with Bible verses which say the opposite, so you got mad. how is that acting like a parrot? at least think about my points instead of simply getting mad. i know it is frustrating to find out what you believe may be wrong after your lifelong dedication to your faith. the truth hurts. but is it not better than blissful ignorance? consider it a blessing to find the truth now. better late than never.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 2:03pm
Greetings Mahdi,
I'm not sentencing you to anything, just saying you may be in for a surprise.  Hey, I may be in for a surprise.  That is the great unknown.
And again, I am not angry at all.
And you still insist on parroting. Wink 
I guess that is to distract others from actually reading what I wrote.
Salaam to you.
CH

Your points have been addressed many times in this thread. Smile


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Caringheart



Greetings Mahdi,I'm not sentencing you to anything, just saying you may be in for a surprise.  Hey, I may be in for a surprise.  That is the great unknown.And again, I am not angry at all.And you still insist on parroting. [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" />  I guess that is to distract others from actually reading what I wrote.Salaam to you.CHYour points have been addressed many times in this thread. [IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />



if you have no more points to make, better to keep quiet.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 February 2013 at 11:04am
"I'm not sentencing you to anything, just saying you may be in for a surprise.  Hey, I may be in for a surprise.  That is the great unknown."

That was my point. Smile


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 30 November 2013 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by Experiential

Hi Mahdi read on - Hebrews 5.8-
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered

 
ok. first of all, imagine God making loud cries and shedding tears while offering prayers and supplications to.................who?

then,if Jesus prayers were heard as the verse claims, then he was saved from death and never died. if Jesus died, then that verse is telling falsehoods. pick one


Posted By: Spiritlead
Date Posted: 11 December 2013 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Hi Mahdi read on - Hebrews 5.8-
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered

 
ok. first of all, imagine God making loud cries and shedding tears while offering prayers and supplications to.................who?

then,if Jesus prayers were heard as the verse claims, then he was saved from death and never died. if Jesus died, then that verse is telling falsehoods. pick one

Hello there

What is important to understand was that Jesus Christ was not God the Father.

He was  God the Son.

He was part of God that became human. That is why he made loud cries and shedding tears while offering prayers and supplications to................. God the Father.

 

I also take Hebrews 5.8 as meaning not just at the time of the crucifixion but throughout all his time on earth.

And after the crucifixion Jesus Christ was raised again – so in a sense while he died he also conquered death.



Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Spiritlead

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

[QUOTE=Experiential] Hi Mahdi read on - Hebrews 5.8-
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered

 
ok. first of all, imagine God making loud cries and shedding tears while offering prayers and supplications to.................who? then,if Jesus prayers were heard as the verse claims, then he was saved from death and never died. if Jesus died, then that verse is telling falsehoods. pick one


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Hello there


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What is important to understand was that Jesus Christ was not God the Father.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">He was<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>God the Son.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">He was part of God that became human. That is why he made loud cries and shedding tears while offering prayers and supplications to................. God the Father.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">I also take Hebrews 5.8 as meaning not just at the time of the crucifixion but throughout all his time on earth.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">And after the crucifixion Jesus Christ was raised again – so in a sense while he died he also conquered death.



[/QUO

If Jesus was a God then God would seize to exist.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Spiritlead

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Hi Mahdi read on - Hebrews 5.8-
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered

 
ok. first of all, imagine God making loud cries and shedding tears while offering prayers and supplications to.................who? then,if Jesus prayers were heard as the verse claims, then he was saved from death and never died. if Jesus died, then that verse is telling falsehoods. pick one


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Hello there


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What is important to understand was that Jesus Christ was not God the Father.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">He was<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>God the Son.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">He was part of God that became human. That is why he made loud cries and shedding tears while offering prayers and supplications to................. God the Father.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">I also take Hebrews 5.8 as meaning not just at the time of the crucifixion but throughout all his time on earth.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">And after the crucifixion Jesus Christ was raised again – so in a sense while he died he also conquered death.






It just sounds funny that God's son has to worship his father, and I don't mean no offense. It just sounds funny to think that. God's son who himself is part god worships the other part of God, that is father, sounds like my dish washer.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 16 December 2013 at 8:26am
Quote:It just sounds funny that God's son has to worship his father, and I don't mean no offense. It just sounds funny to think that. God's son who himself is part god worships the other part of God, that is father, sounds like my dish washer.

Response: --- While the general thinking continues to be that Jesus was the second part of a trinity, it is a faulty doctrine that is corrected in the Quran, if anyone takes time to notice. --- Jesus was born on earth, and it was the Word that came down from heaven as in 3:
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

So here is what it says: --- "The Word came down and indwelt the body of Jesus, who was CALLED the Son of God, but who CALLED Himself the Son of Man, because He was born of flesh and blood like His mother Mary.

Now if we go to another place, we find this in Surah 4:
171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God.

--- See what it says? Jesus was only a Messenger of God,--- And His Word (that came down from heaven) --- and His Spirit. --- so these three, God, His Word and His Spirit are the "Three Manifestations of God from heaven" that are CALLED the heavenly 'trinity' --- But the verse says, "and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God."

--- You see? --- Jesus is not one of the Three. --- This is why He was on earth and could "Pray to His Father in heaven,--- and notice the next verse in 4:
172 Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship God, nor do the angels, those nearest (to God): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, - He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

You see again? Jesus was a Servant on earth to God in heaven, yet while He was on earth He was CALLED the Son of God, ---which He was, because He had no earthly father, did He?

Placid




Posted By: johnford
Date Posted: 17 December 2013 at 8:15pm
... you still have to repent fom your sins for God the Father to be prepared to count Jesus as having died in your place, or tough. 


Why?

There is no evidence, other than that created by the Church, to suggest Jesus died for me.

The Church, that the Roman Emperor Constantine (325) needed to support the failing empire, was a creation of political expediency which was given the task of hammering out a unity among the various opposing bishops upon which they were rewarded with the official status as State Religion.

From there on, any fading shard of the teachings of Jesus was ground to powder and made into something new and the world got Churchianity.

Jesus did not die because of some doctrine of Original Sin ... that was an invention of the Church ... no Church = no Original Sin ... no original sin means no one had die to somehow overcome that what didn't happen anyway.

Before you want to argue please read Genesis very carefully ... and do it again ... and you might note that Adam and Eve were not thrown out of the Garden because of 'sin' ... 'man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil: and now he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' ... no sin ... Adam and Eve did nothing wrong ...

But in knowing good and evil that God had to protect them from the Tree of Life and for the protection of humankind we had to die.

That is the epistemic wound that we carry ... that we know we will die ... that is what happens when we seek knowledge.

Nope .... nothing here about sin, original or otherwise. Jesus, peace and blessing be upon him, did not HAVE to die to satisfy the theological machinations of bishops ... he died because he bought the message of the prophets, and that message was rejected.    



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 9:08am

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 9:42am
Placid,
so what about Adam, he did not have an earthly father, not even a mother! What about Eve? No father, no mother either? God's son and daughter will you call them too.
Sorry Placid but it still sounds like my dish washer, now only overloaded!
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 10:14am
Melchisedek

Melchizedek the king of Salem (which later became known as Jerusalem) and a high priest of God Most High (cf. Genesis 14:18-20). What makes this rather astonishing is that the author claims that Melchizedek has no beginning or end of life, no parents, and no genealogy. These are attributes and characteristics which belong only to God, which therefore suggests that Melchizedek is actually God. If this is the case then wouldn’t this mean that he is greater than Jesus? If so why aren’t Christians worshiping him? At the very least wouldn’t this imply that the Christian God is a Quadrinity (four Persons in One) as opposed to a Trinity?


Posted By: johnford
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 12:03pm
On the other had Melchisdek may well have been an angle.

The problem with Christian theology is has to address the question ... why did Jesus die ... this then relates to the introduction of Original Sin which ... then means that Jesus ... is subsequently redefined as God ... which means that God must have been in at least two places at once ... all of which becomes even more confusing when you have to accommodate a place for the Holy Spirit.

It is like digging an ever deeper hole only to have the whole then collapse.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 December 2013 at 3:39pm
At times like this, those who profess God having a begotten son disappear, darn it. It always happens, they disappear like "horns off of a donkey's head" LOL, an old saying from south Asia.
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 22 December 2013 at 12:38am
Originally posted by johnford

On the other had Melchisdek may well have been an angle.

The problem with Christian theology is has to address the question ... why did Jesus die ... this then relates to the introduction of Original Sin which ... then means that Jesus ... is subsequently redefined as God ... which means that God must have been in at least two places at once ... all of which becomes even more confusing when you have to accommodate a place for the Holy Spirit.

It is like digging an ever deeper hole only to have the whole then collapse.


I'm afraid you guys have been fed so much garbage that you couldn't understand if you tried, and you certainly are not trying.

If God is closer than your jugular vein, and also closer than mine, that's already two places, what about the rest of the world? At least...at least be careful when dissing Christians not to dis God at the same time. It will not go well for you.

"According to the order of Melchizedek." does not refer to humanity. Does not make him God. Are you guys stuck on only man and God exist?

Everybody seems to see Original sin as Adam eating an apple. Actually a "fruit" not named. Original sin, Adam sinned so we are all sinners. Could it really be that simple? Considering God forgave him, why don't they call it the original forgiven sin? Quite simple. It wasn't the act of eating the fruit that created a lineage of sinful humans but the ingesting of it which was a poison to the pure bodies Adam and Eve were given. They underwent an obvious change they felt ashamed of and had to hide from God because of it. If you are used to wearing nothing but notice you are naked and have to hide behind fig leaves, something changed. God forgave the sin but did not reverse the perversion caused by their disobedience. It's not the mind God considers sinful, but the body.
Do some reading, see if you grasp that concept from Genesis. You can teach it to Christians...

Please...Until you are ready to ask about the Holy Spirit, don't diss in that direction either.






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I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 26 December 2013 at 12:41pm
Hi Webber,

I am sorry, I have gotten behind here so I will try to add a little to what you said.
If we back up to what Johnford said near the top of the page:
Quote: Before you want to argue please read Genesis very carefully ... and do it again ... and you might note that Adam and Eve were not thrown out of the Garden because of 'sin' ... 'man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil: and now he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' ... no sin ... Adam and Eve did nothing wrong ...
But in knowing good and evil that God had to protect them from the Tree of Life and for the protection of humankind we had to die.

Response: --- As you said Webber, they followed the suggestion of Satan, instead of God’s commandment to eat only designated fruit, --- and the strange fruit was not digestible or compatible with their pure bodies, --- and the Glory of God that ‘clothed them’ was withdrawn because they became ‘unholy’ in their act of disobedience, so the ‘life support system’ of the Holy Spirit had to be withdrawn.
--- And they were cast out of the Garden and given a new ‘life support system of ‘blood within the flesh’ --- the same as we have today.
In their original bodies they would have lived forever in harmony and obedience to God, --- but they sinned.

Perhaps John would like to hear the same story of the Garden from Surah 7:
12 (God) said: "What prevented thee (Iblis, Satan) from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he (Adam): Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
13 (God) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
18 (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.

--- (In the Garden of delights)
19 "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22 So BY DECEIT HE BROUGHT ABOUT THEIR FALL: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
--- (They admitted that they had sinned against God and their own souls, or they wouldn’t have asked for forgiveness, nor admitted that without forgiveness, they would be lost, --- would they have?)

24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
--- (Notice: --- ‘Get ye down on earth, THEREIN SHALL YE LIVE AND THEREIN SHALL YO DIE.’ --- No more ‘herein’ as it was in the Garden in harmony with God where there was no physical death, --- but ‘therein’ --- on earth.)
--- They also died ‘Spiritually’ as they were no longer holy before God, so they were given bodies with a covering of layers of skin (skins), as we have today.

26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!
27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

--- And notice the statement in 26, (God) said, “But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best.”
And in 27, “Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their (righteous) raiment.”
--- (This is called ‘The Original Sin,’ --- or ‘The Fall from Grace,’ --- in verse 22.)

Placid


Posted By: Abu Ahmad
Date Posted: 13 January 2014 at 9:11pm
Attonement for the 'original sin is handled somewhat differently in the Qur'an as opposed to Paul's account.

Adam (peace be upon him) said he was sorry and asked for forgiveness. So ALLAH forgave him. And that was the end of the 'original sin'.

Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.2:37



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