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Question for Muslims on this Forum

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: General Islamic Matter
Forum Discription: Discuss Islamic matters/issues that not covered by other sub catagories
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24651
Printed Date: 25 October 2014 at 7:39am


Topic: Question for Muslims on this Forum
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: Question for Muslims on this Forum
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:12am
As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Should we debate with people who has no knowledge of Islam?
 
I am asking this question because we have people here particularly those who claim to be Christians who has read a few chapters of the Holy Qur'an then come here to debate with Muslims as if they have something new to reveal or that they have found something incredible that Muslims must be told. Before they come here they arm themselves with ammuition from anti-Islamic sites and post those same questions that are at those sites.
 
Particular mention must be given to TG12345 and Caringheart who has never even completed reading the Holy Qur'an yet they preach here as if they know something we don't. At first when they join they say that they are here to learn then once they earn our trust they show their true colours. They say things like "Muhammad said this in the Qur'an" or "Muhammed meant well but he was wrong".
 
When we counter these slander, then immediately we are labelled as a hot head or a fundamentalist.
 
Thoughts much appreciated.
 



Replies:
Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 2:08pm
Walaakum Salaam Abu Loren.  I think that as long as someone is geniune with their questions about islam, then it is ok to continue to talk to them about islam. But if someone is not geniune, it does not matter where they are from, you will be able to feel it, and it will show in the way they speak and think.  With those people, islamically we can not continue to entertain their buffoonery.  But once they show, geniunity in wanting to know islam, then we can continue to teach them.
But you must know that it is not just islam that they mock.  They mock others  and themselves along with intimate relationships they have with others as well. It is their own life that is suffering the most, and yet, if they realize this as one of the major true reflection of their unhappiness,then they will self demise this nonsensical behavior they do towards others.


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Should we debate with people who has no knowledge of Islam?
 
I am asking this question because we have people here particularly those who claim to be Christians who has read a few chapters of the Holy Qur'an then come here to debate with Muslims as if they have something new to reveal or that they have found something incredible that Muslims must be told.

Don't debate bro, because in debate you are eager to win, as I have done that myself long ago. Concentrate with the Qur'an only and don't defend hadith, I never defend hadiths, I have seen weird hadiths that troubled me. So yeah I have read them and thats enough. If you notice I never post hadith, yes?
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Particular mention must be given to TG12345 and Caringheart who has never even completed reading the Holy Qur'an yet they preach here as if they know something we don't.


Their beings themselves are not important but the output of their minds. I have change names many times yet my style does not change. Let them write whatever maybe, and if you think you can answer than by all mean, with cool head.

You know, your reply to me about Moses nationality I think was wrong, but hey you have your opinion and I have mine, see how easy it is? It does not matter if Musa was an Israelite to me. Is it to you?

Salaam.



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 2:03am
Originally posted by lady

Walaakum Salaam Abu Loren.  I think that as long as someone is geniune with their questions about islam, then it is ok to continue to talk to them about islam. But if someone is not geniune, it does not matter where they are from, you will be able to feel it, and it will show in the way they speak and think.  With those people, islamically we can not continue to entertain their buffoonery.  But once they show, geniunity in wanting to know islam, then we can continue to teach them.
But you must know that it is not just islam that they mock.  They mock others  and themselves along with intimate relationships they have with others as well. It is their own life that is suffering the most, and yet, if they realize this as one of the major true reflection of their unhappiness,then they will self demise this nonsensical behavior they do towards others.
 
As'alaamu Alaikkim M'lady
 
You are right. When a person joins this forum and starts to ask questions then after a while one would be able to discern from these questions what the reason is form him/her to be here. Like you say there are genuine reasons of wanting to learn and underhanded and deceitful quetsions trying to provoke or slander Islam and the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).
 
The majority of them are deceitful from the beginning by saying that they are here to learn but a few days later they post anti-Islamic garbage.
 
Thanks for your input.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 2:12am
Originally posted by nothing


Don't debate bro, because in debate you are eager to win, as I have done that myself long ago. Concentrate with the Qur'an only and don't defend hadith, I never defend hadiths, I have seen weird hadiths that troubled me. So yeah I have read them and thats enough. If you notice I never post hadith, yes?
Hadiths must be defended because they are a foundation to Islam evn thought admittedly there are contradictions. The Hadiths are esssential in knowing how we are to conduct our every day life. For example, without the Hadiths we wouldn't know how to pray, how to perform wudu, the times that we should pray etc etc etc.
The Hadiths also contain explanations from the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) from the verses of the Holy Qur'an. Without these we would be lost and guessing at the unseen.
 

Their beings themselves are not important but the output of their minds. I have change names many times yet my style does not change. Let them write whatever maybe, and if you think you can answer than by all mean, with cool head.

You know, your reply to me about Moses nationality I think was wrong, but hey you have your opinion and I have mine, see how easy it is? It does not matter if Musa was an Israelite to me. Is it to you?

Salaam.

 
It is crystal clear from the Holy Qur'an that Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) was indeed an Israelite. His mother hid him in a basket and put him in the river to hide him from the Egyptians who were killing all male children. He was found by the wife of the Pharoah and was adopted by them. He grew up as an Egyptian prince until he killed an Egyptian accidentally. Then he had to feel to midian where he married the daughter of Jethro and settle for a while until his calling and meeting with God on mount Tuwa.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 


Walaikum assalam wa rahamtullah wa barkatuhu,


Originally posted by Abu Loren

Should we debate with people who has no knowledge of Islam?


In my humble opinion, yes, we should. Because it is a pity if people walk away from here with a wrong information about Islam. We have a duty to do dawah.

However, I personally refrain from commenting or talking to the individual who blasphemes about our beloved messenger, sallallahu alaihe wassallam. It just angers me and I fear losing my poise on the boards, so I want to just leave them alone or tell them they dont know him (sallallahu alaihe wassallam) that is all.

You may have noticed I am posting selected information on prophet sallallahu alaihe wassallam off and on these days. This is because I was contacted on PM (about 2 months ago) with a website blaspheming against the prophet, and this person asked me to comment on it. I was so angry, wanted to fill this entire board with salat-o-salam and ask these people to measure it up with their blasphemy! but anyway, that is a personal problem, I get angry about such matters.


Originally posted by Abu Loren

 I am asking this question because we have people here particularly those who claim to be Christians who has read a few chapters of the Holy Qur'an then come here to debate with Muslims as if they have something new to reveal or that they have found something incredible that Muslims must be told. Before they come here they arm themselves with ammuition from anti-Islamic sites and post those same questions that are at those sites.


Landmines are dangerous, so should they be left as such? No. They should be dislodged.
AbuLoren, your passion for Islam and truth is inspirational, DO NOT COMPROMISE IT. Sometimes you get carried away which disturbes, however you must respond to the falsehood with whatever truth you know.
Reading the Quran and reading its translation is not at all the same. One needs to know the background verses in order to discern correct implications, this is where most people lack knowledge and anti-islamic websites feed on the apparent discrepancy that arises from half information. Thus we must talk even if the other party does not accept our argument, they should be aware there exists a counterargument.



Originally posted by Abu Loren

Particular mention must be given to TG12345 and Caringheart who has never even completed reading the Holy Qur'an yet they preach here as if they know something we don't. At first when they join they say that they are here to learn then once they earn our trust they show their true colours. They say things like "Muhammad said this in the Qur'an" or "Muhammed meant well but he was wrong".


I understand your concerns. TG has perhaps done some study on his own as well. Caringheart is purely out of anti-islamic agendas. I dont know how they are reading the Quran. Perhaps only the portions which are referenced in any article or talk that they heard about a certain issue.
CH's serious concern is that all muslims have a potential of becoming terrorists or something similar, am afraid. That is really sad, and I want to change that opinion.
One thing that you have to accept about them is that they will always say 'muhammad said such and such in the Quran' sallallahu alaihe wasallam. If they did not they would have been muslims already, so just dont let that part irritate you or you lose the purpose of discussion.



Originally posted by Abu Loren

When we counter these slander, then immediately we are labelled as a hot head or a fundamentalist.
 
Thoughts much appreciated.
 


Umar ibn al Khattab was a hot head - but do you know that Rasul sallallahu alaihe wassallam himself said that even shaytan feared the faith of Umar radiAllahu anhu. The shaytan would not walk on the same street when Umar was walking ... so what is wrong in being labeled - I have been labeled as fundamentalist for wearing a hijab and praying five times a day. We cannot please everybody, but we have a duty to serve The One Who deserves to be worshipped.
Do your duty, but try to distance yourself emotionally from the discussions.

Khair inshAllah.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 6:22pm
Greetings Nausheen,

Once again you shock and surprise me.
"Caringheart is purely out of anti-islamic agendas"
I really resent that statement because it is absolutely not true, and you have obviously not read all of my posts.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24625&KW=beautiful&PID=172671#172671 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24625&KW=beautiful&PID=172671#172671

" I dont know how they are reading the Quran."
Then you should ask, not make assumptions.  I have two copies, separate translations, in my home that I got from the library.  Two copies since that was all that was available, and two copies so that I can make comparisons and be sure to gain a fair and proper understanding.

It seems by your statements here, that you have been presenting a false face to me, and that makes me very sorry to learn.  It certainly does not help my acceptance of followers of islam.

I think it is very rude speaking of others on the forum in third person, rather than addressing them personally and properly.
"If they did not they would have been muslims already, so just dont let that part irritate you or you lose the purpose of discussion. "
You lose the purpose of discussion anyway, if you present a false face.

Salaam,
Caringheart



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 2:51am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,

Once again you shock and surprise me.
"Caringheart is purely out of anti-islamic agendas"
I really resent that statement because it is absolutely not true, and you have obviously not read all of my posts.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24625&KW=beautiful&PID=172671#172671 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24625&KW=beautiful&PID=172671#172671

" I dont know how they are reading the Quran."
Then you should ask, not make assumptions.  I have two copies, separate translations, in my home that I got from the library.  Two copies since that was all that was available, and two copies so that I can make comparisons and be sure to gain a fair and proper understanding.

It seems by your statements here, that you have been presenting a false face to me, and that makes me very sorry to learn.  It certainly does not help my acceptance of followers of islam.

I think it is very rude speaking of others on the forum in third person, rather than addressing them personally and properly.
"If they did not they would have been muslims already, so just dont let that part irritate you or you lose the purpose of discussion. "
You lose the purpose of discussion anyway, if you present a false face.

Salaam,
Caringheart

 
Caringheart I've stopped 'debating' with you a long time ago when I realised your agenda here. You and all the other Christians are not here to learn as you claim but to discredit Islam and the Messenger (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 11:13am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Should we debate with people who has no knowledge of Islam?
 
I am asking this question because we have people here particularly those who claim to be Christians who has read a few chapters of the Holy Qur'an then come here to debate with Muslims as if they have something new to reveal or that they have found something incredible that Muslims must be told. Before they come here they arm themselves with ammuition from anti-Islamic sites and post those same questions that are at those sites.
 
Particular mention must be given to TG12345 and Caringheart who has never even completed reading the Holy Qur'an yet they preach here as if they know something we don't. At first when they join they say that they are here to learn then once they earn our trust they show their true colours. They say things like "Muhammad said this in the Qur'an" or "Muhammed meant well but he was wrong".
 
When we counter these slander, then immediately we are labelled as a hot head or a fundamentalist.
 
Thoughts much appreciated.
 

Greetings Abu_Loren,

I think this is a mistake you make... making a pre-conceived assumption about people who come here.

You say that they
"arm themselves with ammuition from anti-Islamic sites and post those same questions that are at those sites."
How about they hear things, they seek to do research on their own, that reasearch leads to having questions that they would like to hear the answers to from muslims themselves?  Perhaps people come here because they want to get to know muslims personally and not just through articles on the internet.  Yes, we have questions?  You should have questions too.  and you should ask them.  I don't think anyone is coming here because
"they have something new to reveal or that they have found something incredible that Muslims must be told."

and since you bring me into your thread...
when have I ever
"preach[ed] here as if they know something we don't."
I only share my own viewpoint.  Just because you don't like it you should not accuse me of doing something I am not doing.
Whatever you believe, it is simply your own viewpoint as well, from what you have been taught.  I don't accuse you of preaching because you share your views.

Didn't know I had to earn your trust.  I only came here to talk.

When has any non-muslim here labeled anyone a hot head or fundamentalist.  I have not seen it.

Heck there are those within my own faith that would call me 'legalistic'.  So what?  They can have their views.  That does not make them right.  Doesn't make me right either.  There's saying that goes something like this;
'Would you rather be right, or would you rather get along?'  What do you think God would want?  I say, if we are getting along, then we must be doing something right.  If we are not getting along, then we are doing something wrong.

Salaam,
Caringheart



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 3:40pm

CH can you please stop being so hypocritical and unhappy. Your complete agenda towards islam is based on falsehood.  I noticed it immediately way back when I read your very first post and then you had the nerve to name your id, "Caring Heart."  If you want people to give you respect then you have to respect others FIRST.  (smile)>



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 03 February 2013 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Greetings Nausheen,Once again you shock and surprise me.
"Caringheart is purely out of anti-islamic agendas"
I really resent that statement because it is absolutely not true, and you have obviously not read all of my posts. http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24625&KW=beautiful&PID=172671#172671 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24625&KW=beautiful&PID=172671#172671


Greetings Caringheart.

The references you ask me to comment on are from anti-islamic groups. That is where you get your information about islam. If am wrong then the truth we share with you about islam should make sense, but apparently it does not.

I checked the youtube discussion talking about the jihad verse in chapter 9. I posted a response regarding the very issue - and what did you say? Did you try to read all of it, understand what was being said there or accept the analysis of the verse, no. Your statement was more disappointing than anything I have said here. Your comment about abrogation of verses in another discussion reflected you hardly read the information I posted. Why do you not analyse carefully the information we share, I don't know.

But I am not disappointed, because from that episode I learned what the non-muslims are worried about in Islam, and I also learned the truth behind a matter that I might have otherwise not looked into so carefully.




Originally posted by Caringheart

" I dont know how they are reading the Quran."
Then you should ask, not make assumptions.  I have two copies, separate translations, in my home that I got from the library.  Two copies since that was all that was available, and two copies so that I can make comparisons and be sure to gain a fair and proper understanding.


A translation of the Quran is never enough. After reading the two translations you cannot decide what is said in the Quran unless you are sure from the tafsirs, which is what we muslims do to understand a verse.
It is a sin to say about the quran what 'we think' even if we are correct, unless we are absolutely sure that whatever we think 'is' in reality what is meant by a particular verse. - that is how careful muslims are about the quran.

But non-muslims read a translation then start 'telling us' what it is saying. In the least its offensive to ones intellect if not anything else. We dont have to ask the non-muslims to tell us what the quran is saying ... Abu Loren's concern is exactly this. If you dont do this, then you will ask us what a verse means, and believe us when we tell you what we know about its meaning.
The anti islamic agenda groups make their own presumptions and spread lies about us. If you want to do your research then you should not dismiss information saying its all so confusing to you.

Originally posted by Caringheart

It seems by your statements here, that you have been presenting a false face to me, and that makes me very sorry to learn.  It certainly does not help my acceptance of followers of islam.I think it is very rude speaking of others on the forum in third person, rather than addressing them personally and properly.


You cannot know my face by reading just a few posts here. I have spoken directly to you, and continue to do so. My response to Abu Loren is that I have not given up on anyone and advise others the same, because the false information which is perhaps used as your homework before having a real dialogue with muslims should be assessed and argued.


Originally posted by Caringheart

"If they did not they would have been muslims already, so just dont let that part irritate you or you lose the purpose of discussion. "
You lose the purpose of discussion anyway, if you present a false face.Salaam,Caringheart


Yes Caringheart, 'if' I present a false face I lose the purpose of discussion with you.

peace.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 3:28am
Greetings CaringHeart,

Would you please clarify what is shocking to you about my response. Is it the fact that I think your source of info is purely anti-islamic websites, or my entire post?

Also, I dont understand what you mean by a false face. Ive always spoken to you with honesty, then why do you think I carry a false face?

thank you.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by lady

CH can you please stop being so hypocritical and unhappy. Your complete agenda towards islam is based on falsehood.  I noticed it immediately way back when I read your very first post and then you had the nerve to name your id, "Caring Heart."  If you want people to give you respect then you have to respect others FIRST.  (smile)>

Greetings lady,

I went back to see some of my first posts, then realized it would be easier to ask you...
Which 'very first post' are you referring to?
I have, and never have had, any agenda, other than to hear from the mouth of muslims themselves, what it is that they believe they follow.
I have said from the beginning, I believe in people... in getting to know the people.  That has not been so easy to do, because they do not like the hard questions that I ask, yet I have these same hard questions asked of myself and I am not accusing people of having 'an agenda'.  I just know that we have differing beliefs and that they may not understand mine, and the only way we will ever understand each other is through talking to each other and getting to know one another.
Yes, I ask hard questions.  That is because I seek Truth.
I also have answered hard questions that have been asked of me.
and yes, this is because I have a caring heart for all people. Heart
I want to know the people, not just what is said about their religion.  I want to know what the people think about their religion.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Please if you would, read what I wrote to Abu_Loren above.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 1:02pm
Greetings Nausheen,

These are not the only sources where I get information.  I read and listen to an awful lot from muslims themselves and weigh it all in the balance.
These were simply two sources I wanted to ask how you refute what they say since this is the information that is out there.  I thought you were interested in helping me.  Now you show me in this public forum a different face... that you are angered by my questions.  You never said so to me.  I thought you were willing to address these things with me.  Now I know why our conversations came to an end.  I thought you were simply busy.
You(not you personally, but all those who do this) label these challenges to the faith anti-islamic because that is a convenient label.  It saves from having to address real issues.  I could label everything islamic as anti-everything else, but this gets us nowhere.  What we need to address is why these things are being said.  Change my mind if you can.  I need to know that I can live in peace and equality with my fellow humans beings, even with islam in the world.

"I checked the youtube discussion talking about the jihad verse in chapter 9. I posted a response regarding the very issue - and what did you say? Did you try to read all of it, understand what was being said there or accept the analysis of the verse, no."
Can you refresh my memory, which youtube and which response?  Yes I have always read and considered carefully all your responses to me.  Some were exceedingly encouraging, and I was pretty sure I shared this fact.

"But I am not disappointed, because from that episode I learned what the non-muslims are worried about in Islam, and I also learned the truth behind a matter that I might have otherwise not looked into so carefully."
This is good, because this is the reason I wished for you to watch... to understand how it is on the other side of things.   Then we become better equipped to understand and trust one another.  Your most recent responses gave me reason to doubt the trust I had been placing in you and in our discussions.  It made me doubt your sincerity.

"But non-muslims read a translation then start 'telling us' what it is saying."
We are not 'telling' anyone what the qur'an says, we are asking how it says something different to you.  We are telling you that we can not understand how you do not see the same thing that we see, but if we can be assured that muslims will not act on the scriptures in the way we see them as intending for you to act, then all will be well.
It is confusing because we can never be sure exactly what it is that your scriptures do say.  There are many ways of interpreting and practicing... and there's that ever present issue of allah allowing deception or taqiya.  How can anyone ever trust a muslim given that precept?  These are the things we need to see addressed.  This is not anti-islamic, these are real concerns, as they would be for you too if you saw these things in the scriptures of others towards yourselves.

"My response to Abu Loren is that I have not given up on anyone and advise others the same, because the false information which is perhaps used as your homework before having a real dialogue with muslims should be assessed and argued. "
Thank you, and this is what I hope for, that the information be assessed, and only then, addressed.

"Yes Caringheart, 'if' I present a false face I lose the purpose of discussion with you. "
Smile  Good because until now you have given hope.

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 1:18pm
I also wish to thank the administrators for allowing my responses to post.  I hope that we may increase understanding.

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 1:47pm
Greetings Abu_Loren,

I've never asked for, or looked for debate, just conversation. Smile

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 3:07am
walecum As salam WA rehmatullahi WA barakhatahu.yes we should debate as much as possible by quoting verses of Qur'an to them,because the more U do Da'waah(giving knowledge of Islam to non Muslims)the more sawaab U get.because finally those who are against Qur'an one day they will accept it,as Qur'an is the book of truth and it is a solution to mankind.so whatever chance I get I will do dawaah because its a fard which is mentioned in Surah Al Asra ch 103 v 1-3- Allah says man is in the state of loss except those who are involved in-faith,good deeds,resorting others truth(Da'waah),resorting people to patience and hard work.Allahfiz.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 5:21am
Greetings Caringheart,

'These are not the only sources where I get information. I read and listen to an awful lot from muslims themselves and weigh it all in the balance. These were simply two sources I wanted to ask how you refute what they say since this is the information that is out there. I thought you were interested in helping me. Now you show me in this public forum a different face... that you are angered by my questions. You never said so to me. I thought you were willing to address these things with me. Now I know why our conversations came to an end. I thought you were simply busy.'

'"I checked the youtube discussion talking about the jihad verse in chapter 9. I posted a response regarding the very issue - and what did you say? Did you try to read all of it, understand what was being said there or accept the analysis of the verse, no."
Can you refresh my memory, which youtube and which response? Yes I have always read and considered carefully all your responses to me. Some were exceedingly encouraging, and I was pretty sure I shared this fact.'


You are saying in your first statement that you had two sources - one of these was a youtube panel discussion. I listened to the first 30 minutes. It was talking about Jihad, the verse 9:5 in the quran, and how to deal with abrogation in the Quran.

I posted a a response to this in 'Islam for non-muslims'
I did not have this information - rather I searched the sources I trust and rely on, digged it out and posted it on the forum. Agreeed I did not address it directly to you, because I thought it is a general concern topic and should be presented to everyone :
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24604

YOur comment on Jan 11 2013:
'Islam is so complex, and confusing, and confused that it seems no one can figure it out the same way twice... and yet I have heard people talk of 'the simplicity of Islam'. I don't get it. To me there is nothing simple about it at all, in fact it is major confusion and open to much interpretation.'

If you please check the first 35 mins of the video, then re-read the 4 posts i have made and then re assess your comment, you will know what I am talking.

I was not angry at this video, nor did I ignore your concern. I posted something which answers exactly how one would refute such a claim. But after your comment, I did not go back to it, because it had robbed me off all energy for it.

Your second source I checked in a rush the first day. The second day when i looked carefully there were blasphemous remarks about the prophet of Islam in the opening lines. I said ideally I do not comment on this sort of thing - this IS my answer to your question about how I would refute it - I would simply not make any comment. However, since I was trying to help diffuse some of the tension between you and other muslims, I did make a cursory comment - I made an exception to my own rules. I was still not angry. But your response on Jan 8th, I felt pushed into further comments, I could not handle my own reaction, so I decided to step back a while.
However, I still did not want to do injustice to you, so, I kept talking to you on the forum about other issues which were not related to that website. Perhaps this you call a fake thing, because if I was angry with you about one thing, it should reflect in every other discussion I have with you ?
Our discussions on PM have ended, because I need to handle my anger. If I said anything to you it would only have made things worse.
Even in my response to AbuLoren I did not point a direct finger at you - rather mentioned it in anonimity, and said my anger at blasphemy is my personal problem.

'You(not you personally, but all those who do this) label these challenges to the faith anti-islamic because that is a convenient label. It saves from having to address real issues. I could label everything islamic as anti-everything else, but this gets us nowhere. What we need to address is why these things are being said. Change my mind if you can. I need to know that I can live in peace and equality with my fellow humans beings, even with islam in the world.'

Blasphemy is not an intellectual challenge Caingheart, it is simply ignorance and bad manners. And such bad manners are not seen anywhere except on anti-islamic websites.
There are no real issues in there - they are attacking our faith and our prophet. When there are real issue there always are ways of decorum to present them!!

Can you live in peace with Isalm in the world - well its upto you. Can you show respect to muslims and their prophet? Can you refrain from slandering him? Or you think your right to free speech allows you to slander anybody's honor?
Just the other day I saw a documentary on youtube- called The Rushdie Affair.
If you can find it, just check it out. Khushwant Singh, who is an atheist, says in that video he advised against the publication of Satanic Verses in India - because he was concerned about the sentiments of muslims in India. He said any group of people who hold someone in such high regard - it is not wise to challenge those sentiments. That book or the cartoons, or the movie - these are mischiefs. I cannot control the reaction of every muslim on it. I can teach my children and a handful of people I can have influence on. So I dont know how safe the world is when people insist on doing such kind of mischief, while responsible personales do not want to police them.

'We are not 'telling' anyone what the qur'an says, we are asking how it says something different to you. We are telling you that we can not understand how you do not see the same thing that we see, but if we can be assured that muslims will not act on the scriptures in the way we see them as intending for you to act, then all will be well.'

For example when you see the Quran as setting two groups of people against each other you did not ask how we see these verses. You simple said why the quran is setting two groups of people against each other. You've seen the whole confusion on that thread yourself.
When you are asking why the quran is saying something, basically you are saying that the quran is saying it and you want to know why, rather than asking if it is really saying what you think it is. Basically if muslims are not reading the verses as you think they are then the whole issue is a false premise.

'It is confusing because we can never be sure exactly what it is that your scriptures do say. There are many ways of interpreting and practicing... and there's that ever present issue of allah allowing deception or taqiya. How can anyone ever trust a muslim given that precept? '

There are only few verses in the quran that have sharia rulings in them. Many of these concern the muslims only. Regarding dealing with non-muslims if you misinterpret them and teach afghan children about jihad for 20 years, it may happen that one day an OBL is born who uses them against the very people who used the misinterpretation as a weapon for their enemy ... Do you see my point? Making the world safe for terrorism - did you read that article?

Taqayyiah, am still waiting for the references.
How do you know Ayesha (radiallahuanha) was 9 years old when she married the prophet? Is it thru islamic sources of non-islamic? There is information in our sources that is used by enemies of islam to discredit us and attack us, still our scholars did not hide those - and we are dishonest, untrustworthy people!


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:24am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,

I posted a reply to you on Feb. 8, which i just discovered the moderators never allowed to post. So I guess we are back to that... being unwilling to have truth shared openly. I am going to repost, but just in case it once again is deleted here is what I had responded to you.
Salaam,
Caringheart


Greetings Caringheart,
Im not sure why your post was deleted. I would still want to keep this discussion on the forum and hear from anyone who wants to share their views on this subject.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,

Sorry to be slow about responding. I have been tired lately and need time to rest. To try immediately to answer all of your replies felt a bit overwhelming. I am sure you understand as you yourself take rest periods.


No problem.

Originally posted by Caringheart

To explain;
What I feel is a false face is for you to make judgements and accusations to another person about myself when you have had no such discussion with me and have presented no such dilemma to me. Your false face is in leading me to believe we were having open discussions when in truth you are judging me (and falsely judging me to boot), and then sharing that judgement, not with me, but with someone else.
Regarding what you have called anti-islamic...
The source that I asked you about clearly states:

    "The facts presented here about the life of Muhammad and the origins of Islam are fully supported by the works of early Muslim biographers upon which all later historians rely."

but when you are presented with uncomfortable facts that you dislike, not only did you stop conversation, you went to the fall back position of calling me anti-islamic to someone else.


Firstly, I called your piece of information anti-islamic, not you. I judged and accused the website, not the person who showed it to me – just to be clear.

Secondly, my impression is when something is said on a public forum, its open for everyone to join in. Thus if you are upset, which you are, you have all the rights and ability to seek clarifications, which I would try to provide.


Originally posted by Caringheart



Note: I just went back to read our conversation of Jan. 8...
So are you saying that you never read any further than that one opening (and yes I will agree, distasteful) comment? I will not argue that the comment is indeed provocative but it is a widely shared view.


I skimmed thru the site the first day, when I had missed the Ali sina challenge (which I call blasphemy). When I did read it – I was sorry the link came from you.

Calling such names to my prophet has become the norm lately. I understand the ‘widely shared view’- emphasis mine on your quote – but I do not care to respond in anyway. I regret giving them the satisfaction of increasing their visitor’s count due to my hit.

Originally posted by Caringheart

   You never bothered to go on to read why,


Because I do not read beyond blasphemy.

Originally posted by Caringheart

and how, those conclusions have been arrived at?


Because there are several ways of saying the same thing. One can choose or not to choose decorum in speech.

Originally posted by Caringheart

    In doing so you choose to turn a blind eye and accept only that which you want to believe. Is this wise?


Also a deaf ear to their cacophony! Yes, I think it is wiser than entertaining their bad manners.

Originally posted by Caringheart

   Is this the way to Truth?


Again, they are not heading to truth. They are only making noise – in ignorance and with bad manners.

Originally posted by Caringheart

     There have been many things said about Jesus and I have delved deeply into every thing that is said, to weigh carefully whether the views I have held are clear and true.


Hats off to you!

Originally posted by Caringheart

       "such bad manners are not seen anywhere except on anti-islamic websites."

I can wholeheartedly disagree with you there. The things muslims have to say about the faith of others is no less offensive, it's just that the rest of us are able to deal with differing beliefs without accusing others of being deliberate trouble-makers. We can accept that others are allowed to question and have their own opinion about our beliefs, and we are, at least I am, willing to look into those differences of opinion to see what is behind them... to seek after real truth.


I agree there are muslims who say offensive things to people of other faiths, but I have never joined their band wagon.
The choice to comment or not to comment over a piece is mine. To let me be or to coax me further into a response is not in my control. It rests with the person I am communicating my choice to.

I am always of opinon that everyone has a right to ask questions, but I reserve the right to comment or not to comment over a reference someone shows. I still think your reference was anti-islamic, blasphemous and rude. I think those sources were most easily available when you started to do your homework on Islam. That is what I meant when I commented on you as coming out of anti-islamic websites.

Peace.

PS: I will be travelling for two weeks thus will not be able to respond to anything for a while.




-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.



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