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ALL Christians will go to HELL

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641
Printed Date: 19 December 2014 at 9:13pm


Topic: ALL Christians will go to HELL
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: ALL Christians will go to HELL
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:21am

As’alaamu Alikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

It is written that the greatest sin which Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala will not forgive is associating partners to Him. The Christians associate the Holy Spirit who is Jibril (Alyhi Salaam) and the Son who is Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) with God Almighty. However, their escape clause is in stipulating that all three are one. A simple mathematical calculation renders this impossible. I was taught at school that 1+1+1=3. This is simple mathematics that all school children learn when they start kindergarten. This formula is pure polytheism which they do not want to acknowledge as it is better to close your eyes and believe that 1+1+1=1. Then they argue that God has always been three in one even they say, in the Old Testament. I have read and re-read the Old Testament but I just can’t find this reasoning anywhere. May be I am just st**id.

Then you have the Catholic denomination of Christianity where all of their churches are adorned with idols. Everywhere you look you will find a figure hanging from a cross, the idol of Mary mother Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) and saints from their history. They pray to these idols and ask for intercession, which is nonsensical because all these people are dead awaiting resurrection. No human being can intercede for you.

When Prophet Muhammad (Alayhi Salaam) started to receive his revelations he invited the people of the Book both Jews and Christians to be part of the New Muhammadan Covenant. They refused to the detriment of their souls. They could not see the light that was sent during the time of darkness. They refused the Mercy that was sent to all mankind, therefore they are still in that darkness where the light just does not shine.

There is a simple solution for all Christians and Jews who are seeking their own salvation. It is simply to submit to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala and be part of the Final Covenant of God Almighty. They need to open their eyes and their hearts and worship God how He wants us to worship Him.

“Ashadu anla Illaha Illallah wa Ashadu anna Muhammadan abduhu rasool Allah”.




Replies:
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 3:18pm
Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL
 
Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!  Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.  In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.  Correct?
 
I'm sure you agree that, if Allah decides to contradict you and lets even one Christian into heaven, then you face a very severe fate on the Day of Judgement.
 
By the way, are you familiar with the following passage from the Koran?
 
Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.  Surah 5:69
 
Since you are claiming that this passage is wrong, and since muslims believe that this passage was revealed to humanity through Muhammad, then I assume you are accusing Muhammad of being a false prophet? 
 
Abu Loren wrote: ...believe that 1+1+1=1.
 
Yes, you are correct.  There are systems of mathematics where 3 = 1, for example, Integer Modulo 2 arithmetic.  To see this for yourself, go to (for example) http://www.google.com - www.google.com and type in
 
3 MOD 2
 
It will confirm that 3 is, in fact, equal to 1.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL
 
Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!  Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.  In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.  Correct?
 
I'm sure you agree that, if Allah decides to contradict you and lets even one Christian into heaven, then you face a very severe fate on the Day of Judgement.
 
By the way, are you familiar with the following passage from the Koran?
 
Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.  Surah 5:69
 
Since you are claiming that this passage is wrong, and since muslims believe that this passage was revealed to humanity through Muhammad, then I assume you are accusing Muhammad of being a false prophet? 
 
Abu Loren wrote: ...believe that 1+1+1=1.
 
Yes, you are correct.  There are systems of mathematics where 3 = 1, for example, Integer Modulo 2 arithmetic.  To see this for yourself, go to (for example) http://www.google.com - www.google.com and type in
 
3 MOD 2
 
It will confirm that 3 is, in fact, equal to 1.


Another illustration is in the atomic (or micro) level of all matter... the energy that forms everything...
is made up of
                  electro magnetic force                   weak force
                                                   \              /
                                                       strong
                                                        force
trinity
Is God energy itself?
capable of taking any form...
something to ponder on
Does anyone know the nature of God?
Why is it that we can not look upon Him?

on a side note:
Does a shamrock have three leaves and yet it is one?



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 6:36pm
I think a person should have faith because they believe in the faith, because the faith itself has something to recommend it, not because they have lost faith in another.

Many are astray in their practice...
it does not necessarily mean they are astray in their belief.
God, and only God, can judge the heart.

Peace/salaam.



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL
 
Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!  Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.  In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.  Correct?
 
I'm sure you agree that, if Allah decides to contradict you and lets even one Christian into heaven, then you face a very severe fate on the Day of Judgement.
 
By the way, are you familiar with the following passage from the Koran?
 
Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.  Surah 5:69
 
Since you are claiming that this passage is wrong, and since muslims believe that this passage was revealed to humanity through Muhammad, then I assume you are accusing Muhammad of being a false prophet? 
 
Abu Loren wrote: ...believe that 1+1+1=1.
 
Yes, you are correct.  There are systems of mathematics where 3 = 1, for example, Integer Modulo 2 arithmetic.  To see this for yourself, go to (for example) http://www.google.com - www.google.com and type in
 
3 MOD 2
 
It will confirm that 3 is, in fact, equal to 1.
 
Reepicheep I see that you come out of the woodwork now and then and show your face on this forum.
 
I wrote what I wrote not on my own authority as I know the consequences of it, unlike the Christians. All I'm doing is just simplifying what God has said in His final Revelation to mankind.
 
By the way, all Christians like to quote passage 5:69 as it makes them feel secure that everything is ok. But here's the real meaning of that verse.
 
Sahih International
 
Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. 5:69
 
As you can see you as a Christian, Jew or a Sabean must believe in Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and in the Holy Qur'an. As far as I can see only a handful of Christians will make it. It is those who followed the original message of of Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) before the Trinitarians hijacked Christianity.
 
You can give me all the science you want as. again. diverting attention away from 1+1+1=3 makes you Christians feel secure or rather a false sense of security.
 
By the way, when can we see you next on this forum?


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL

 
Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!  Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.  In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.  Correct?



Hello Reepicheep,

The least requirement of a constructive debate is honesty.Without that one cannot lead to anywhere.

How can you says that anyone is claiming on his personal authority that associating partners is the gravest sin in the sight of Allah.

The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.

Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners. Now if there are christians who are free from this belief, their heart is indeed pure from this sin, and they have a wiggle room with Allah on the day of judgement.

Quran 5:116

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.





-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.  Surah 5:69
 
 Sahih International
Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. 5:69


5:69 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Who changed(added to) the words of the qu'ran?



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Who changed(added to) the words of the qu'ran?</span>


Quran 5:14 - 17

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.


These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.

The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL

 
Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!  Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.  In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.  Correct?



Hello Reepicheep,

The least requirement of a constructive debate is honesty.Without that one cannot lead to anywhere.

How can you says that anyone is claiming on his personal authority that associating partners is the gravest sin in the sight of Allah.

The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.

Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners. Now if there are christians who are free from this belief, their heart is indeed pure from this sin, and they have a wiggle room with Allah on the day of judgement.

Quran 5:116

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.


Greetings Nausheen,

Sorry if I am seeming argumentative tonight.

"Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners."

Only according to your belief... according to the one you believe in... Muhammad.
Why was there the need for the virgin birth?

You see even what is said in your qu'ran is inaccurate, and incorrect...

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?"

Christians have never taken Mary to be anything other than human and blessed by God.  But some are confused by the great reverence for Mary, though I don't know why any muslim should be, since they revere her as well as blessed and holy.

It is not good to make assumptions about understanding another person's faith.

Salaam,
Caringheart



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Nausheen


These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.

The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.


5:69 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

and here the qualifying factor for belief is
"
Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"

'and if one verse comes after another it abrogates the earlier'

The qu'ran is very conflicting with it's own self.

Sorry if I dispensed with formalities.  I'm actually wanting to get off the computer. Heart


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:07pm
John 3:16-18

16 “For God so loved the world, "#fen-ESV-26126i" - i ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26126i - i ] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:09pm


Caringheart,

This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad and according to Islam's teachings followed the teachings of Jesus that the Quran claims He said and the Book it claims God gave Him.

There are contradictions in Islam, but this is not one of them.




Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:16pm
Abu Loren wrote: I wrote what I wrote not on my own authority
 
Interesting.  So, it's not on your authority that you sentence all Christians to eternal damnation.  Under whose authority, then, do you sentence all Christians to hell???
 
Also, as Caringheart has pointed out, you seem to be adding words to the koran, in particular, the words in red below:
 
Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians
 
Under whose authority are you adding words to the koran?  Is it under your authority?  And, if you have the authority to make changes to this verse, then I assume you have the authority to make whatever changes you want to any and all passages in the koran?


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:24pm
Nausheen wrote: The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.  Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners.
 
Nausheen, just to confirm what you are saying: you are declaring that every single Christian without exception who believes Jesus is God is going to spend eternity in hell.  Furthermore, you realize that, if Allah disagrees with you and admits even one person into heaven who believes Jesus is God, then you are guilty of blasphemy and you will spend eternity in hell. 
 
Correct?


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:38pm
Abu Loren wrote: diverting attention away from 1+1+1=3
 
I'm not diverting attention away, I'm agreeing with you.
 
In Integer Modulo 2 arithmetic, the following two statements are both true:
 
3 = 3
 
3 = 1
 
surely a beautiful mathematical way of illustrating the nature of the Triune God.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen wrote: The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.  Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners.

 

Nausheen, just to confirm what you are saying: you are declaring that every single Christian without exception who believes Jesus is God is going to spend eternity in hell.  Furthermore, you realize that, if Allah disagrees with you and admits even one person into heaven who believes Jesus is God, then you are guilty of blasphemy and you will spend eternity in hell. 

 

Correct?


Associating partners is a sin which Allah has declared in the Quran that it is unforgivable. ie if one dies upon this sin. If one repents, then there is no sin which is unpardonable in this life.

As for where I will end, even after knowing till date that I do not associate partners - I don't know. This is what we are taugt. We are taught that we should not feel safe regarding our hereafter unless we have made it, so I don't know.

Again, technically speaking ... anyone who dies with the belief that there is a god besides God, then he has associated partners - a sin which will not be forgiven.

If you think God has made an exception with the Christians - which muslims are unaware of, then the Quran says Allah will judge in the matters where people have differences.

3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.





-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,Sorry if I am seeming argumentative tonight."Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners."Only according to your belief... according to the one you believe in... Muhammad.Why was there the need for the virgin birth?You see even what is said in your qu'ran is inaccurate, and incorrect..."And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you
say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?"Christians have never taken Mary to be anything other than human and blessed by God.  But some are confused by the great reverence for Mary, though I don't know why any muslim should be, since they revere her as well as blessed and holy.It is not good to make assumptions about understanding another person's faith.Salaam,Caringheart


Hello Caringheart,

I did not take this argument in any other light except from the reference point of the Quran. This is how the first message was challenged - using a verse from the Quran. Thus I am responding from the Quranic point of view.

Secondly, making images of Mother Mary in church - is it just emulating her? Are they not worshiping Mother Mary?
Honestly I did not know this. Thank you for sahring.
However I know that making images/idols is blasphemy in Islam.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:23pm
Nausheen, you are not being very clear in what you are saying.
 
Consider the following.  There have been many, many, millions of Christians who died without ever hearing of Mohammad, the Koran, or Islam.  You are declaring, in the name of Allah, that every one of those Christians without exception is going to spend eternity in hell.  Correct?  And, if even one of those Christians makes it into heaven, then you agree that you will spend eternity in hell for making false claims on behalf of Allah.  Also correct?


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by TG12345

John 3:16-18<span ="text John-3-16"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">16 “For God so loved the world, - i ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26126i - i ] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26127" ="text John-3-17"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26128" ="text John-3-18"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.</span></span>



Hello TG,

I thought you were gone for a while. Good to see you around. Even if its just a few quotes from the Bible.

Im not sure what you are trying to say, unless you make a statement alongside.

If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ.
According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen, you are not being very clear in what you are saying.
 

Consider the following.  There have been many, many, millions of Christians who died without ever hearing of Mohammad, the Koran, or Islam.  You are declaring, in the name of Allah, that every one of those Christians without exception is going to spend eternity in hell.  Correct?  And, if even one of those Christians makes it into heaven, then you agree that you will spend eternity in hell for making false claims on behalf of Allah.  Also correct?


Oh My God!

NOOOOOOO!!!

Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell.

Thank you for asking the clarification.

You see, revelations of the Quran took 23 years to complete. During this period, quran has made many arguments to the Jews and Christians - like a live dialogue with them. Before the declaration that islam is the only true religion, which appears in verse 3:19, all the Jews and Christains who dies on true faith, are saved - this is our belief.

Im sorry for the confusion :(

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 9:44pm
Nausheen wrote: Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell. 
 
You're still not being very clear.
 
I'm certain that sometime in the past day, somewhere in the world, people have died who believed that Jesus is God, and who had never heard of the koran, Mohammad, or Islam.  Are you declaring, in the name of Allah, that those people are going to spend eternity in hell?  
 


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


'and if one verse comes after another it abrogates the earlier'


This is a very lose definition of abrogation.

I posted a rather long article on what is meant by abrogation in the Quran under a topic dealing with the verse of the sword - not sure if you have seen it.

Also remember, just because two verses appear one after another, does not necessarily mean the one appearing earlier was revealed early. eg; some verses of chapter 5 were revealed before those of chapter 3.


Originally posted by Caringheart

Sorry if I dispensed with formalities.  I'm actually wanting to get off the computer. [IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" /></span>


No worries. Good night!

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen wrote: Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell.  
You're still not being very clear.

 

I'm certain that sometime in the past day, somewhere in the world, people have died who believed that Jesus is God, and who had never heard of the koran, Mohammad, or Islam.  Are you declaring, in the name of Allah, that those people are going to spend eternity in hell?   


Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle.
The answer is I don't know about those who were in shirk(polytheism) before the revelation of the Quran.
To clarify further, all christians and all jews, means all of these people to whom the message of Quran and news of Muhammad has reached. This is how I saw the first message on this string. [perhaps the opener can explain his intent further if it was meant otherwise]


I can give you my speculation on the subject.
It is said that Allah has sent 125000 prophets on earth, and there has never been a nation who has not received a prophet. Therefore, there has never been a nation who has not been told about the seriousness of tawheed (oneness of God). Allah has corrected polytheism amongst various generations and various nations through a series of prophets - and His message against it has always been very strict. He has also punished nations by natural calamities - ie those who rejected their prophets, like the A'ad and Thamud.
Thus it seems those who committed shirk, even though they had not heard of muhammad's (pbuh) message, have offended God and have earned hell fire.

As for the followership of muhammad (pbuh), only those are guilty of rejecting him who have done so AFTER his message was clearly delivered to them - this is understood by the example of the uncle of Khadija (ra) who was a christian monk. He was a true believer of Isa (pbuh), and he died before Islam was perfected. People like him are regarded as believers in Islam.



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:09am
Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further...
 
OK, Nausheen, I think I finally understand what you believe.  To summarize:
 
- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell
 
- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell
 
- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true
 
You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his. 
 
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.  Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared Abu Loren's beliefs to be true.  So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.  Correct?
 
I find it interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.  Instead of putting your faith in Abu Loren as you seem to have done, I suggest it might be wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but the decision is of course up to you. 


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:15am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further...
 
OK, Nausheen, I think I finally understand what you believe.  To summarize:
 
- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell
 
- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell
 
- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true
 
You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his. 
 
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.  Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared Abu Loren's beliefs to be true.  So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.  Correct?
 
I find it interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.  Instead of putting your faith in Abu Loren as you seem to have done, I suggest it might be wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but the decision is of course up to you. 
 
Reepicheep Reepicheep Reepicheep how underhanded you are! Like all the Christians here you like to twist everything around. Go back and read I mean READ what Nausheen has written. Christians lack that too, I'm afraid.
 
No wonder ALL Christians are snakes in the grass. Dispicable hypocrites.


Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:07am
I just want to quote verses from Qur'an that in surah an Nisa ch 4 v 48 and in verse 116,Allah says that Allah if wants will forgive any sin except shirk(associating partners with God).for eg when any Muslim says merry Christmas he is committing shirk.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 10:41am
Originally posted by TG12345


Caringheart,

This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad and according to Islam's teachings followed the teachings of Jesus that the Quran claims He said and the Book it claims God gave Him.

There are contradictions in Islam, but this is not one of them.


TG,
"This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad"
Who says?  It does not say this in the qur'an.

I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion... from where do you get this conception?  It does not say in the quran, what you are saying... it does not say, 'Oh you Christians who came before I sent you Muhammad'. 

It says that the qualifying factor for belief is
"
Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"

God's Word... in His scriptures, is meant to be for all time.  It doesn't distinguish people of one time from another.  I'm not sure I am quite clear on what it is that you are saying.

Caringheart

note;
 the quranic scriptures differ

whoever believes in allah and his messenger... (we might ask, which messenger was actually meant if this was spoken by Muhammad) and the last day.

and surah 5 was one of the final few to be revealed.

Some things to think about.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Nausheen


Associating partners is a sin which Allah has declared in the Quran that it is unforgivable. ie if one dies upon this sin. If one repents, then there is no sin which is unpardonable in this life.

Again, technically speaking ... anyone who dies with the belief that there is a god besides God, then he has associated partners - a sin which will not be forgiven.

3:55
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.


Greetings Nausheen,
"Associating partners is a sin"
We must be careful to discern what this means... associating partners with God.  Did Muhammad have a divine birth?  and yet you can not speak the name of allah without speaking also the name of Muhammad.  So be careful in your discerning.

"the belief that there is a god besides God"
Regarding this,
This is what is so hard to make others understand
"the belief that there is a god besides God"
We do not believe there is a god besides God.  We do not believe Jesus is a god.  Jesus is One with God... a part of Him... the part that God Himself chose to send to this earth, to His creation, in human form, in the hopes of reaching them.  God decides to 'do a new thing' in the hopes of reaching the hearts of His creation.  It seems a concept that is just too difficult for some to grasp, but not for those who believe in Jesus and in what Jesus said and revealed of the Father through Himself.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Nausheen


If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ.
According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).


I'm sorry, and I know this sounds contentious, but in all truth(and truly spoken in love), this is known in the financial world as 'hedging your bets'... attempting to cover yourself from both ends.
Wishing peace and blessings.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Nausheen


Quran 5:14 - 17

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.


These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.

The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.


I have only just found this, shared by Nausheen... thank you Nausheen... which of course just adds further confusion to the issue, but at least now I understand the confusion. Smile

so it says;
""Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"
but it also says that those who believe in Jesus as the Son of God do not believe in allah...
there may be real truth in that...
allah is not our God may be the truth.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by TG12345

John 3:16-18<span ="text John-3-16"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">16 “For God so loved the world, - i ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26126i - i ] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26127" ="text John-3-17"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26128" ="text John-3-18"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.</span></span>



Hello TG,

I thought you were gone for a while. Good to see you around. Even if its just a few quotes from the Bible.

Im not sure what you are trying to say, unless you make a statement alongside.

If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ.
According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).



Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,

I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.

I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.

I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.

Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.

Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further... 
OK, Nausheen, I think I finally understand what you believe.  To summarize:
 

- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell

 

- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell

 

- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true

 

You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his. 

 

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.  Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared Abu Loren's beliefs to be true.  So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.  Correct?

 

I find it interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.  Instead of putting your faith in Abu Loren as you seem to have done, I suggest it might be wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but the decision is of course up to you. 



Reepicheep,

Thank you for telling me what I believe.

Most people, with the exception of only one or two come here and tell us what we believe.

And mind you, I did not go to any christian site to ask what I believe, you guys have come here ... now if you can convince me about what you say, you win. As for now you have even lost my audience unless I like your tone in future.

peace.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,
"Associating partners is a sin"
We must be careful to discern what this means... associating partners with God.  Did Muhammad have a divine birth?  and yet you can not speak the name of allah without speaking also the name of Muhammad.  So be careful in your discerning.


Hello Caringheart,

Perhaps you missed my statement in of the previous posts. Whatever I said here is from the standpoint of the Quran.
Im very careful in saying what is associating partners ... it may be different for a christian, and that is not the debate to make it clear.
According to the Islamic faith associating partners has a definition - according to that definition noone shares divinity with Allah.

I have seen your charges on raising the status of Muhammad next to Allah in another message a response to which is still pending ...
Declaration of faith includes the name of Muhammad (pbuh) as follows:

There is no god but God and Muhammad is His messenger.

We don't say Muhammad (pbuh) is god or a part of god or one with god etc, we call him His messenger. If this reads as attaching a status of divinity, then I cannot help.

It is said in the Quran that obedience to the messenger is obedience to Allah.
But for you the Quran was written by Muhammad (pbuh) himself - thus we can keep going in circles :)

Originally posted by Caringheart

"the belief that there is a god besides God"

Regarding this,This is what is so hard to make others understand"the belief that there is a god besides God"We do not believe there is a god besides God.  We do not believe Jesus is a god.  Jesus is One with God... a part of Him...the part that God Himself chose to send to this earth, to His creation, in human form,


According to our faith God does not have any parts in form of flesh and blood.
Flesh and blood is His creation, and very much separate from His entity.

I dont think its as hard to make others understand as you see it. Because I am reading many of TGs comments where he seems to understand most of our beliefs, including the differences between us and his faith.




-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,

I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.


Walaikum assalam TG,

Thank you for stopping by and giving clarification. I thought something similar, that is why I said we do not believe in Christ as you do ...

Somewhere on these forums I was told that serving God is the thing that will save us, even if we did not do so in the love of Christ ... perhaps I should make a fresh post on this subject and discuss my concerns when you have more time.

For now enjoy your break.

Peace to you!

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 7:57pm
I know it's pedantic and tangential, but i couldn't resist...

forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&PID=172836#172836 - Reepicheep : 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the remainder after division, which might tempt irreverent comments from someone as warped as I am.

forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&PID=172846#172846 - Caringheart : As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity? Yes, it extends far beyond the subatomic scale, but so does electromagnetism, eg in the form of light. Yes, the Standard Model fails to address gravity, but if that's your point of reference, then you would have to unify the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces, so leaving only two - strong and 'electro-weak'. Hmm?

-------------
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by TG12345


Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,

I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.


Walaikum assalam TG,

Thank you for stopping by and giving clarification. I thought something similar, that is why I said we do not believe in Christ as you do ...

Somewhere on these forums I was told that serving God is the thing that will save us, even if we did not do so in the love of Christ ... perhaps I should make a fresh post on this subject and discuss my concerns when you have more time.

For now enjoy your break.

Peace to you!


Wa alaikum salaam Nausheen,

sigh this forum is too awesome to take a real break from Smile I'll slow down in my responses but don't see myself walking too long away from it.

Please feel free to start a new thread, I'll gladly respond to it if not soon than in a few days.

Allahma3k.


PS If I was gone for too long, I think Abu Loren would get really worried and have one less Christian to insult to make himself feel better so I won't deprive him of that. Just kidding! Feel free to start the new thread and I'll respond to your points, probably sooner than later.

Salaam.




Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 10:47am
Originally posted by TG12345

God loves you and He spilled His blood for you on the cross.

TG, how can you say that he is insulting you when you are insulting God Himself? How can you say that Abu is using foul language when it is you that is using the most despicable, provocative and outright disgusting language towards your God? To say "He spilled His blood"? How far can you go? In the name of Allah, He (Almighty) will not be pleased with you when you stand before Him. You must realise the seriousness of what you are saying. You must have been raised with this blasphemous doctrines and it's engraved in your thoughts and find it hard to reason without them. You must abandon them. Your intentions might be sincere but your foundation is all wrong. It's blinding you from what is true. You must give yourself a chance. You owe it to yourself. This is madness what you are saying. I saw you in the video standing supporting the people of Palestine doing good against the oppressors, I only ask that you do good to yourself too. Insha Allah.



-------------
الله


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 11:41am
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

God loves you and He spilled His blood for you on the cross.

TG, how can you say that he is insulting you when you are insulting God Himself? How can you say that Abu is using foul language when it is you that is using the most despicable, provocative and outright disgusting language towards your God? To say "He spilled His blood"? How far can you go? In the name of Allah, He (Almighty) will not be pleased with you when you stand before Him. You must realise the seriousness of what you are saying. You must have been raised with this blasphemous doctrines and it's engraved in your thoughts and find it hard to reason without them. You must abandon them. Your intentions might be sincere but your foundation is all wrong. It's blinding you from what is true. You must give yourself a chance. You owe it to yourself. This is madness what you are saying. I saw you in the video standing supporting the people of Palestine doing good against the oppressors, I only ask that you do good to yourself too. Insha Allah.


Salaam Alaikum Rational,

It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and willingly came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways".

If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.

It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it. However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.

BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family.

Furthermore, in my disagreement with what Islam teaches, I have never called either you or Abu Loren or any Muslims on this forum or Muhammad or God st**id, or deaf, blind and dumb or called you or your prophets devils or said I enjoy assaulting and insulting Muslims. I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God. I know that you see Christianity as false and that you believe the Bible and Christians blaspheme against God.

You are determined to preach Islam. I am determined to preach the Gospel.

We are both doing so without resorting to insults against each other. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that much of your religion is false. I am being completely honest with you. I am doing so without calling you st**id or a fool or saying I enjoy insulting and assaulting "ignorant" people like yourself.

That is how people like Abu Loren behave. And even he admits it isn't right to do... though he falsely blames it on Christianity rather than taking responsibility for his own actions.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by TG12345

It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and willingly came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways".

Jesus is not God, he is a man. And God does not die. It's really that simple TG. You're believes portray shame and weakness to God and this is blasphemous. The guys you listen to changed the true message of Jesus (pbuh), they invented an idea. That's all they did. Who influenced them? Satan!  Who else but him? It's hard for you to swallow but it's true. It's fiction at best meant to separate you from the truth. That's all it is. You're people are proving this everytime they foolishly attempt to describe a representation of this mysterious trinity thing. One day God is like an egg, another day like a three-headed dog, or 3=1 because Integer Modulo 2, or or or. You guys are stuck with it. It's all about innovation for you. It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures. Subhan Allah. You've been praying to an idea since you were eighteen. Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus. How can he be pleased when you're praying and saying things like "I thank you for spilling Your blood for me"? Unthinkable Astakfur Allah. This is how you thank your Creator, you Sustainer? You think He needs to kill himself for anything?

Originally posted by TG12345

If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.

Not if, you are wrong. You are so wrong! You can't even begin to imagine how wrong you are. See I'd never say "if I'm wrong", because i know I'm not, because Islam gives me sufficient sound information to wash away any doubts, unlike you with your trinity. You're not thanking Him (The One God), your thanking an idea. And this is shirk, the only sin that Allah The Creator won't forgive. Fear what you are saying. Fear in Allah and give yourself a chance. You told me that you had doubts before in your faith. That was your heart telling you something. It's telling you it wants the truth, because it will only accept the truth, otherwise it won't be in peace. That's all your heart really wants, it wants peace. With Islam you get peace, everlasting peace and all your doubts are washed away.

Originally posted by TG12345

It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it.

That's why I have mixed opinions about debating with Christians on a regular basis. It can get very personal. But in the end it's worth it, given that both parties are willing to demonstrate in sensible reasoning, accept defeat when defeated and not deter from the topic being discussed. Otherwise it's time to move on.

Originally posted by TG12345

However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.

We're discussing sensitive topics here so expect a bit of something from time to time. But if I insulted you I never meant to.

Originally posted by TG12345

BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family.

That's good. You should have given Islam a fair chance by reading the Quran. I'd advise you to focus on the Quran first before you start reading the hadiths. The hadiths are taken as extra supporting material to the Quran. You should read and finish the Quran first. It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still, this didn't stop you from making claims about Islam. You keep making statements about Mohammad (pbuh) having some truths and having some falsehoods, and that he's not a prophet blah blah blah. You haven't read the whole Quran, so please be fair to muslims and finish reading the Quran.

Originally posted by TG12345

I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God.

Please finish reading the entire Quran and read the tafseer of all the versus to get a good understanding of the whole message. Otherwise don't make claims because you're proving that you don't care about what Islam has to teach, you just want to teach what you have.

Originally posted by TG12345

I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that much of your religion is false.

This demonstrates how you make your claims while being ignorant in the Quran.



-------------
الله


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 3:18pm
Greetings Rational,

I shared this with someone else once before.  You see you view the crucifixion of Jesus as weakness.  I say exactly the opposite... it took great strength to do what Jesus did... Could you do what He did?  Turn the other cheek, not fight back, accept God's will to the very end?  If this is strength for you then surely it is strength for Jesus.
" Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus."
I recommend a book you can read, called The Shack.  It's a fiction but illustrates the nature of God quite well.

"It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still..."
It doesn't take alot of reading the qu'ran to see the problems with it.
and only the qu'ran is claimed to be the word of God, anything else is the word of man, trying to make things right with the qu'ran... trying to make clear what isn't.

mho

I will let you know if my opinion changes about the 'whole message' in the qu'ran.

I think islam has taught many good things but that it is also just as far astray.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by TG12345

It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and willingly came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways".

Originally posted by Rational

Jesus is not God, he is a man. And God does not die. It's really that simple TG.


Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man. God chose to die temporarily. Jesus gave His life willingly. It was not taken from Him.

Originally posted by Rational

You're believes portray shame and weakness to God and this is blasphemous.

Shame? I also never said God is weak. I said He chose to temporarily let others harm Him and hurt Him. He was at no point less powerful than them. He allowed people to do the wrong things to Him.

Stating that God allowed Himself to be crucified means He is weak is like stating that God does not throw down thunderbolts on an atheist who dares Him because He can't. God chooses in how He acts. It is up to us to accept His will.

 
Originally posted by Rational

The guys you listen to changed the true message of Jesus (pbuh), they invented an idea. That's all they did. Who influenced them? Satan!  Who else but him? It's hard for you to swallow but it's true. It's fiction at best meant to separate you from the truth. That's all it is.

The book you believe is from God tells people to look into the "Gospel" to find Muhammad mentioned in it.  It also makes the claim about a book that no one in history except Muhammad and Muslims ever claimed to have existed and for which there is no proof whatsoever that it was there.

Originally posted by Rational

You're people are proving this everytime they foolishly attempt to describe a representation of this mysterious trinity thing. One day God is like an egg, another day like a three-headed dog, or 3=1 because Integer Modulo 2, or or or. You guys are stuck with it. It's all about innovation for you.

That's funny, because I never said God is any of the things you describe.

Originally posted by Rational

It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures. Subhan Allah. You've been praying to an idea since you were eighteen. Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus. How can he be pleased when you're praying and saying things like "I thank you for spilling Your blood for me"? Unthinkable Astakfur Allah. This is how you thank your Creator, you Sustainer? You think He needs to kill himself for anything?

Where did I say God allowed others to kill Him because He "needed a backup plan"? Where did I say He needed to do that?

Please do us both a favour and don't put words in my mouth.

God chose to allow Himself to be crucified for us. He didn't need to do this. He didn't even need to create us. He chose to do all these things. Praise and honour and glory be to Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.

Originally posted by Rational

Not if, you are wrong. You are so wrong! You can't even begin to imagine how wrong you are. See I'd never say "if I'm wrong", because i know I'm not, because Islam gives me sufficient sound information to wash away any doubts, unlike you with your trinity.

Really? Then why have you been unable to refute the points I brought up?

Islam teaches that before Muhammad, all prophets were sent to their people only. Yet the Israelite Moses was sent to the Egyptian Pharaoh.

Islam teaches that the Christians and Jews hid the traits and descriptions of Muhammad in the Injil and Gospel... yet Christians and Jews are commanded to look in these books to find Muhammad mentioned therein!

Islam teaches that God told mankind that milk is palatable to those who drink it... yet a person with a milk allergy who drinks this drink will either get very sick or die.

Islam teaches that a person who eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning cannot be harmed by any toxin... yet you would never want to test this one out on someone and agree with me it would be cruel to feed a Muslim who lives by the above mentioned diet botulism.

Islam teaches that people have been decreasing in size from Adam's creation up to Muhammad's time. Yet history shows us that human height in at least one part of the world (Europe) has fluctuated and for the most part risen between the 1st and 6th century AD.


Originally posted by Rational

You're not thanking Him (The One God), your thanking an idea. And this is shirk, the only sin that Allah The Creator won't forgive. Fear what you are saying. Fear in Allah and give yourself a chance. You told me that you had doubts before in your faith. That was your heart telling you something. It's telling you it wants the truth, because it will only accept the truth, otherwise it won't be in peace. That's all your heart really wants, it wants peace. With Islam you get peace, everlasting peace and all your doubts are washed away. [/QUOTE[
I thank God for what He has done for me... and this is unfortunately what you as a Muslim are not doing by ignoring what Jesus did for us on the cross.

My faith and trust in God is strong enough to ask Him to show me if my faith or idea in Him is wrong. I have asked Him whether Islam is true. I am still learning about it. What I know so far very much indicates that it is not, but I continue reading the Quran.


Originally posted by TG12345

It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it.

Originally posted by Rational

That's why I have mixed opinions about debating with Christians on a regular basis. It can get very personal. But in the end it's worth it, given that both parties are willing to demonstrate in sensible reasoning, accept defeat when defeated and not deter from the topic being discussed. Otherwise it's time to move on.

On that we can agree.


Originally posted by TG12345

However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.

Originally posted by Rational

We're discussing sensitive topics here so expect a bit of something from time to time. But if I insulted you I never meant to.

Thank you, you have never said anything to me that is insulting or demeaning. I was referring to people who act like Abu Loren.

I expect people to get defensive from time to time, I know I do. I expect people to be passionate about their faith, I know I am.

It is when people start throwing insults and swearing and demeaning others is when it is wrong.

Originally posted by TG12345

BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family.

Originally posted by Rational

That's good. You should have given Islam a fair chance by reading the Quran. I'd advise you to focus on the Quran first before you start reading the hadiths. The hadiths are taken as extra supporting material to the Quran. You should read and finish the Quran first. It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still, this didn't stop you from making claims about Islam. You keep making statements about Mohammad (pbuh) having some truths and having some falsehoods, and that he's not a prophet blah blah blah. You haven't read the whole Quran, so please be fair to muslims and finish reading the Quran.

Have you read the whole Bible, Rational? All of it?

If not, does that mean you are not allowed to make comments about Christianity and what we believe?


Originally posted by TG12345

I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God.

Originally posted by Rational

Please finish reading the entire Quran and read the tafseer of all the versus to get a good understanding of the whole message. Otherwise don't make claims because you're proving that you don't care about what Islam has to teach, you just want to teach what you have.

I am still reading through the Quran. The claims that I make on this forum are based on the Quran and authentic hadiths, as well as what is on Muslim websites like IslamQA.

Please show me where I have misquoted Muslim sources if that is what you are alleging I am doing.

Originally posted by TG12345

I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that much of your religion is false.

[QUOTE=Rational]This demonstrates how you make your claims while being ignorant in the Quran.


This is a conclusion I make based on what I have read so far.

Have you read the entire Bible?

Salaam.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 6:14pm
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

God chose to die temporarily

Where did He go when he died? Did He exist during this time? Did the father die or just the son or all? If He died who brought Him back? Did He revive Himself? Please explain in more details if you can.

Originally posted by TG12345

That's funny, because I never said God is any of the things you describe.

I should've been clearer. I meant Christians in general saying this.

Originally posted by TG12345

Where did I say God allowed others to kill Him because He "needed a backup plan"? Where did I say He needed to do that?

Please do us both a favour and don't put words in my mouth.

I said:
"It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures."
I didn't say you said it. This is the impression I get from the Christian believe.

Originally posted by TG12345

He chose to do all these things

He chooses to do things that don't make much sense. That's not sensible.

Originally posted by TG12345

Really? Then why have you been unable to refute the points I brought up?

What points are you talking about? The Trinity or God killing himself?

Originally posted by TG12345

Have you read the whole Bible, Rational? All of it?

To say that I held the bible and read it cover to cover, then No. I don't have the interest in reading it all. The fundamental parts of worship are flawed from the outset, namely the Trinity and God dying for our sins. I don't see the need to go further than that. If those can't be justified then the Bible is flawed. On the other hand, you have nothing as significant against the glorious Quran. Your claims are baseless. For this reason I'm asking you to read the entire Quran for your own benefit.

Quick question, can you tell me where in the Bible that Jesus (pbuh) said "I am God, Worship me"? I want to see this in the Bible if it's there.

Originally posted by TG12345

Please show me where I have misquoted Muslim sources if that is what you are alleging I am doing.

I never said that you misquoted anything. Since you have this great interest in Islam you should read and finish the Quran. I don't have interest in the bible or the Christian faith because it's corrupt.




-------------
الله


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 6:45pm
Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

You have asked some really good and challenging questions, I thank you for this. I will be busy for the next 2 days, so although I will respond to your points, it will probably not be until Tuesday or Wednesday. If possible, I will do so sooner. Hope that is ok with you.

Shukran.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by Rational

I don't have interest in the bible or the Christian faith because it's corrupt.


Greetings Rational,

correction... "because you've been told it's corrupt."

You really should not dismiss the scriptures if you have not read them for yourself.

When I heard things about the qu'ran I decided to investigate for myself.  This is what truth seekers do.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 4:37am
Originally posted by Caringheart

correction... "because you've been told it's corrupt."

If you knew me, you'd now that I never follow anything before looking at the evidence myself. I don't care how many people are telling something, if I'm not convinced I'm not convinced. Simple! You can't convince me that God died no matter what examples or illustrations you give because it doesn't add up. I can assure you that the Bible in it's present form is a fabricated hoax. I've satisfied this conclusion to myself without anyone forcing it on me.

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is what truth seekers do.

I don't need to seek this truth because I already have it in my hands, it's called the Qur'an.


-------------
الله


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 9:20am
Greetings Rational,
"You can't convince me that God died no matter what examples or illustrations you give because it doesn't add up."
You are correct, God didn't die, because God is not flesh and only flesh can die.  God was not the flesh... Jesus was.  This does not make them mutually exclusive.  The flesh dies, the Spirit does not.  Jesus was the flesh, God was the Spirit.

"I don't need to seek this truth because I already have it in my hands, it's called the Qur'an."
Then why are you afraid to investigate for yourself what the Bible says and read it for yourself, just like I, and so many others, are reading the quran for ourselves? 

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Caringheart

You are correct, God didn't die, because God is not flesh and only flesh can die.  God was not the flesh... Jesus was.  This does not make them mutually exclusive.  The flesh dies, the Spirit does not.  Jesus was the flesh, God was the Spirit.

Sorry but this is the rubbish I'm talking about. Flesh this and spirit that. Now your saying he didn't die but TG said he died temporarily. You guys don't know what you believe. Why should I read the Bible when I have two Christians here giving me two contradicting claims. God died temporarily VS God didn't die.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Then why are you afraid to investigate for yourself what the Bible says and read it for yourself, just like I, and so many others, are reading the quran for ourselves? 

I'm afraid because it might deviate me from the truth.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 12:02pm
Greetings Rational,

I do not know that I agree with you, that TG and I disagree.  We just have our different ways of explaining a thing which is difficult to explain.
If TG says God died temporarily, I can see this as his way of saying that when Jesus flesh died, the Spirit of God was with the flesh, so God would have felt the death of the flesh part of His nature.  I don't know what TG means by 'temporary death'.  Perhaps he will explain it to me, or perhaps you can point me to where he writes about it.

All muslims do not think identically the same either.  That is an impossible and unrealistic thing to ask or expect.  It will always be about personal understanding.  This is nothing unusual with belief.  That is why it is known as beliefs.  We all have to come to our own understanding of God.
I would have to know what TG said to see if we disagree or not.

"Why should I read the Bible when I have two Christians here giving me two contradicting claims."
That is precisely why you should want to read for yourself.

I am led to read the qur'an because of the conflicting beliefs about what it says.   No two muslims can give me identical, exact responses about it either... except what they are taught to parrot, about it being the divine revelation of allah to Muhammad.

"I'm afraid because it might deviate me from the truth."
That's the point.  If you have the truth, you have no need to fear reading anything else.
I do not fear to read the qu'ran.  If it stands out as Truth I will know.

You bring me back to my original statement...
You should not dismiss the scriptures without reading them for yourself.
I say you are afraid to know the truth.  You are afraid to learn that the truth is not what you have been told... and not the one you have been following.

I do not dismiss the qu'ran without first reading it for myself.
But then I am truly seeking Truth and want to know Truth.   I am not wishing to hide from any part of it.

Salaam,
CH



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 12:09pm
Didn't Jesus come to show us that God overcomes death?
Did we have proof of this, before Jesus?


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

I say you are afraid to know the truth.  You are afraid to learn that the truth is not what you have been told... and not the one you have been following.

I'm not afraid of the Bible my previous post was me kidding LOL


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not know that I agree with you, that TG and I disagree.  We just have our different ways of explaining a thing which is difficult to explain.

It's difficult because it doesn't add up.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't know what TG means by 'temporary death'.  Perhaps he will explain it to me, or perhaps you can point me to where he writes about it.

TG said it here (few posts back):
Originally posted by TG12345

You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man. God chose to die temporarily. Jesus gave His life willingly. It was not taken from Him.

Originally posted by Caringheart

All muslims do not think identically the same either

Muslims have the same fundamentals, One God (no father, son, mother, brother, cousine), worship Him non other, you are accountable for your own sins and we are born sinless (no sin inheritance). You two can't even agree on whether God died or not! Astakfur Allah

Originally posted by Caringheart

I would have to know what TG said to see if we disagree or not.

Caringheart said:
"God didn't die"


TG said:
"God chose to die temporarily"


Those statements are clearly opposite to each other. You disagree. Face the facts.

When you guys agree and sort out your differences then you can recommend the Bible for reading.

Example, If you were looking to move and purchase a new house and the estate agent shows you a picture. Here it is:

http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/8430d2b6-35ba-11df-963f-00144feabdc0.img - http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/8430d2b6-35ba-11df-963f-00144feabdc0.img

Would you consider going inside this property after seeing that (house with severe subsidence)?

I wouldn't, because I want to go forwards in life not backwards. And I'm not even looking to move. I'm happy where I am. Seeing this house made me even happier with what I have. And I would love you to join me too.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 3:30pm
Hi Rational,

Just two quick comments...
as you and I both know, you can not take statements out of their context and hope to convey their full meaning.
and you should not be afraid to read the Bible.
In fact considering this is about life eternal, you should not make any conclusion without reading it.  But it is certainly your choice.

ever heard the expression, 'you can't judge a book by its cover'?
I also never judge a movie, or a book, based on what others have said about it. Smile  (I might note too, that I very seldom agree with what others have said.  Their judgements are usually far too shallow for me.)


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Rational

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Wa alaikum salaam.

Originally posted by TG12345

God chose to die temporarily

Originally posted by Rational

Where did He go when he died?

Jesus went into the earth to set captives free. The Bible does not say where God the Father and God the Son was. Since God exists as three persons, while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not.

Ephesians 4:7-10

But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
    and he gave gifts to men.” "#fen-ESV-29264a" - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29264a - a ]

(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? "#fen-ESV-29265b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29265b - b ] 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

He also preaches to the spirits in prison of people who disobeyed Noah.

1 Peter 3:18-20


18 For Christ also suffered "#fen-ESV-30426b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203&version=ESV#fen-ESV-30426b - b ] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which "#fen-ESV-30427c" - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203&version=ESV#fen-ESV-30427c - c ] he went and proclaimed "#fen-ESV-30427d" - d ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203&version=ESV#fen-ESV-30427d - d ] to the spirits in prison, 20 because "#fen-ESV-30428e" - e ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203&version=ESV#fen-ESV-30428e - e ] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

Originally posted by Rational

Did He exist during this time?

Yes.

Originally posted by Rational

Did the father die or just the son or all?

The Son died.

Originally posted by Rational

If He died who brought Him back? Did He revive Himself? Please explain in more details if you can.

He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.

1 Thesallonians 1:8-10
For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Romans 8:9-11

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus "#fen-ESV-28112d" - d ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=ESV#fen-ESV-28112d - d ] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.


John 2:18-21

18 So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, "#fen-ESV-26105c" - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%202&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26105c - c ] and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.


John 10:7-18

So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”



Originally posted by TG12345

That's funny, because I never said God is any of the things you describe.

Originally posted by Rational

I should've been clearer. I meant Christians in general saying this.

As I haven't said such a thing, I will move on.

Originally posted by TG12345

Where did I say God allowed others to kill Him because He "needed a backup plan"? Where did I say He needed to do that? Please do us both a favour and don't put words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Rational

I said:
"It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures."
I didn't say you said it. This is the impression I get from the Christian believe.

Sorry, I misinterpreted you. I can tell you that as a Christian, I do not believe God "needed" a "backup plan". He did this all on His own free will.

Originally posted by TG12345

He chose to do all these things

Originally posted by Rational

He chooses to do things that don't make much sense. That's not sensible.

That don't make sense according to you. It makes no sense to me why God would send tens of thousands of prophets into the world and only allow the message of one of them to not get corrupted. It also makes no sense to me why He would allow men to physically discipline their wives..

Originally posted by TG12345

Really? Then why have you been unable to refute the points I brought up?

Originally posted by Rational

What points are you talking about? The Trinity or God killing himself?

The points about the Quran contradicting Muhammad's claim that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only, while the Quran states clearly that the Jewish Moses was sent to the Egyptian Pharaoh. Another interesting point is the Quran's statement that milk is good for those who drink it, while fact is that there are people in the world who are killed by it. Just some of many things that are mistakes in your faith.

Regarding the Trinity, what do you want me to clarify about it?

I don't believe God killed Himself, but that He allowed others to crucify Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

Have you read the whole Bible, Rational? All of it?

Originally posted by Rational

To say that I held the bible and read it cover to cover, then No. I don't have the interest in reading it all. The fundamental parts of worship are flawed from the outset, namely the Trinity and God dying for our sins. I don't see the need to go further than that. If those can't be justified then the Bible is flawed.

If you are going to criticize Christian beliefs without even reading the Bible, then kindly don't get upset when I make criticisms of Islam based on what I have already read (and am continuing to read) from the Quran.

Originally posted by Rational

On the other hand, you have nothing as significant against the glorious Quran. Your claims are baseless.

Which of my claims? You have yet to disprove one of them.

Originally posted by Rational

For this reason I'm asking you to read the entire Quran for your own benefit.

I am reading it. However, seeing as you feel free to discuss my faith while not reading the Bible, I will continue to discuss yours as I read into yours.

Originally posted by Rational

Quick question, can you tell me where in the Bible that Jesus (pbuh) said "I am God, Worship me"? I want to see this in the Bible if it's there.

Did He say that statement in these exact words? No, He did not.

However, He did make it very clear He is God in other words.

John 14:5-14

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-26676b - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26676b - b ] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus here said that He is in the Father, and the Father in Him. He said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.


John 10:22-39

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-26504b - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26504b - b ] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-26511c - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26511c - c ]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’ http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-26516d - d ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26516d - d ]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

In these verses, Jesus the Father is in Him, and that He is in the Father. He said that He and the Father are one.

Matthew 25:31-49

31 
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This passage talks about Jesus judging the world, and deciding who will enter heaven and who will enter hell.

This is what God will do.


These are some passages that show that Jesus claimed He is God.

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran claim that those who have seen him have seen God?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that He and God are one?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?


Originally posted by TG12345

Please show me where I have misquoted Muslim sources if that is what you are alleging I am doing.

Originally posted by Rational

I never said that you misquoted anything.

Then what is wrong with me criticizing Islam as I am learning about it?

Originally posted by Rational

Since you have this great interest in Islam you should read and finish the Quran. I don't have interest in the bible or the Christian faith because it's corrupt.

Yet you enjoy talking about it, even though you do not fully understand ir since you have not taken the time to read the Bible.


[/QUOTE]


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by Rational


Caringheart said:
"God didn't die"


TG said:
"God chose to die temporarily"


Those statements are clearly opposite to each other. You disagree. Face the facts.

When you guys agree and sort out your differences then you can recommend the Bible for reading.


Salaam Alaikum, Rational. Let me just jump in for one second and provide you a similar example.

Nothing said:

If I am not mistaken:
Allah treats Musa as an Egyptian,
but Musa himself bias where he inclined to the Israelite,
Yet Pharaoh (the new one) reminded Musa that he was one of them once upon a time.
In the end Musa given up the Israelite.
And in the end he was alone, stateless, raceless.

Please don't ask me for sources, that would all over the place.


Abu Loren said:


You are mistaken!
 
If you go and re-read the Holy Qur'an then you will know that Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) was adopted by the wife of Pharoah as her own after finding him in the river.You will find the story of Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) very similar to that in the Bible. Therefore, the story if Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) has not been corrupted too much in the Bible.
 
To answer TG12345's question, Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) was a Jew who was adopted by Pharoah and the had to flee after killing an Egyptian. Then at the age of forty he was chosen by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala as a Prophet of God (God spoke to him directly). Then he was sent back to Egypt with his brother Prophet Harun (Alayhi Salaam) to free thier people who were in bondage.
 
Read the Holy Qur'an from beginning to end and you will find their story.
 
By the way, the reason his brother Prophet Harun (Alayhi Salaam) was sent also is because we are told that Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) had a speech impediment.

...

Moreover, Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala says in the Holy Qur'an that a Prophet is sent to his own people, therefore, Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) cannot be an Egyptian. He is also associated with leading the children of Israel.


So would it be right of me to say that when Abu Loren and Nothing sort out their differences, I should start reading the Quran?


Christians can disagree with each other, as can Muslims. I wouldn't recommend or disrecommend reading either the Bible or Quran based on the words of Jews and Christians.

In regards to Caringheart's statement "God did not die"... this is true in the sense that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. God the Son died.

The Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son are one God. The Son died. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.

Impossible? For humans, definitely!!! For God, nothing is impossible.



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 2:44am
Originally posted by Caringheart

and you should not be afraid to read the Bible.

My family and I are currently visiting my wifes parents. We visit them a few times every year for the past 10 years of so. They are Christians. The room I always sleep in has two russian Bibles on display. I'm very acquainted with them, even though I don't read Russian, I pick them up now and again and skim through the pages. They really don't scare me LOL Also on display within the property are many artistic drawings of the virgin Mary and baby Jesus. This is what I have all around me every day while I'm here with my family. I know your faith. I've spoken to many Christians over the years. They come knocking on my door most sundays (where I live) and we talk every time (given that I'm not busy). They always come back for more discussions and bring others with them because they know my door is open to them. I love talking to Christians that are sincere about discussing faith and the troubles in the world. I know your faith. I know what you guys believe in because I live with it.

Have you lived with a muslim? Have you experienced how a muslim worships God?



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:07am
The following is for preacher TG12345 read and UNDERSTAND.
 

Sahih International

 

Neither those who disbelieve from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists wish that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord. But Allah selects for His mercy whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty. 2:105

Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109

 

And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." 2:111

 

And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. 2:120

 

They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." 2:135

 

Say, [O Muhammad], "Do you argue with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere [in deed and intention] to Him."

Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do. 2:139-140

 

Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it]. 2:146

 

 

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants. 3:19-20

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." 3:64

 

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists. 3:67

 

A faction of the people of the Scripture wish they could mislead you. But they do not mislead except themselves, and they perceive [it] not. 3:69

 

O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]? 3:71

 

O you who have believed, if you obey a party of those who were given the Scripture, they would turn you back, after your belief, [to being] unbelievers. 3:100

 

O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason. 3:118

 

 

You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination.

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. 3:186-187

 

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness. 4:159

 

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171

 

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. 5:14-15

 

But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent. 5:18-19

 

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. 5:51

 

O you who have believed, take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given the Scripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if you should [truly] be believers. 5:57

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, do you resent us except [for the fact] that we have believed in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed before and because most of you are defiantly disobedient?" 5:59

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people. 5:68

 

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. 5:116-117 

 

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it. 9:31-32

They have said, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He; He is the [one] Free of need. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. You have no authority for this [claim]. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know? 10:68

 

It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. 19:35

 

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day. 19:36-37

 

Has the time not come for those who have believed that their hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah and what has come down of the truth? And let them not be like those who were given the Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their hearts hardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient. 57:16

 

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. 98:6



Posted By: Eoah
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:38am
Greetings TG12345...and to all that have offered such interesting discussion on this hot topic.


"You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man."

No, it is you who is wrong! The creator cannot be creation.  The bottom line is that Jesus never said: "I am God", because Jesus is creation.  Even though God resides in Heaven, that doesn't imply that God doesn't reside on earth, for we can experiance the joy and the knowingness of God within creation through the Holy Spirit.  Now the Holy Spirit is not a separate God who is partner to God Almighty, either.  The Holy Spirit is God Almighty who is the one and only.

When Jesus said: "I and my father are one" it is because he is connected to God through the Holy Spirit.  Now, in that sentence it only seems like the Holy Spirit is a separate from God Almighty in Heaven.  God in Heaven and God on Earth (Holy Spirit) is a totally seamless awesome universal one being that is totally beyond our comprehention!!!  But, I love him and I live by him.  And Jesus is my spiritual role model, but even though I am a Christian, Prophet Mohammed is my spiritual role model too.  God bless them both!

There is nothing in the Bible that equates God as 3; there is nothing in the Bible that equates God with 2.  But, over and over in the bible God is one all the way, baby!  And the Quran backs that up over and over again that the Bible is true in the statement that God is one!  The council of Nicea can't argue with that.  And the council of Nicea don't have the authority to say God is 3 because they're not Prophets anointed by God.

Now TG12345, I might have alot of contempt for them "Jesus Idol worshippers",  but, I respect you and love you simply because you are on this forum with the courage to discuss your spiritual convictions.  May the One God Bless you.



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:40am
Originally posted by Caringheart

and you should not be afraid to read the Bible.

I forgot to mention, my father is a Christian. I don't see him as much as I would like. He told me a while ago he thinks he is a muslim. I intend to discuss this the next time I see him Insha Allah.

I know your faith.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:45am
Originally posted by TG12345

Since God exists as three persons, while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not.

The Son died.

He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.

In regards to Caringheart's statement "God did not die"... this is true in the sense that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. God the Son died.

The Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son are one God. The Son died. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.

It's depressing to see people thinking they believe in one God but then come out with this nonsense. Read the verse that Abu Loren cited:

"They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:135 - 135 )


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:56am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

The following is for preacher TG12345 read and UNDERSTAND.
 

Sahih International

 

Neither those who disbelieve from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists wish that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord. But Allah selects for His mercy whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty. 2:105

Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109

 

And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." 2:111

 

And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. 2:120

 

They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." 2:135

 

Say, [O Muhammad], "Do you argue with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere [in deed and intention] to Him."

Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do. 2:139-140

 

Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it]. 2:146

 

 

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants. 3:19-20

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." 3:64

 

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists. 3:67

 

A faction of the people of the Scripture wish they could mislead you. But they do not mislead except themselves, and they perceive [it] not. 3:69

 

O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]? 3:71

 

O you who have believed, if you obey a party of those who were given the Scripture, they would turn you back, after your belief, [to being] unbelievers. 3:100

 

O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason. 3:118

 

 

You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination.

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. 3:186-187

 

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness. 4:159

 

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171

 

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. 5:14-15

 

But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent. 5:18-19

 

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. 5:51

 

O you who have believed, take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given the Scripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if you should [truly] be believers. 5:57

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, do you resent us except [for the fact] that we have believed in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed before and because most of you are defiantly disobedient?" 5:59

 

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people. 5:68

 

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. 5:116-117 

 

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it. 9:31-32

They have said, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He; He is the [one] Free of need. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. You have no authority for this [claim]. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know? 10:68

 

It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. 19:35

 

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day. 19:36-37

 

Has the time not come for those who have believed that their hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah and what has come down of the truth? And let them not be like those who were given the Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their hearts hardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient. 57:16

 

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. 98:6



Do you actually believe these verses applies to Christians and our faith?


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:59am
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

Since God exists as three persons, while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not

It's depressing to see people thinking they believe in one God but then come out with this nonsense. Read the verse that Abu Loren cited:

"They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:135 - 135 )

A polytheist is someone who believes in more than one God. We believe in one God, who has revealed Himself as three persons.

What is depressing (more amusing than depressing, actually) is the misunderstanding some Muslims clearly have of Christian beliefs.

Stating that one God existing as three persons = polytheism on the part of Christians requires as much ignorance of Christianity as stating that ascribing 99+ attributes to God = believing there are 99+ gods on the part of Muslims requires ignorance of Islam.
 



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 5:21am
BEFORE
Originally posted by TG12345

God chose to die temporarily

AFTER
Originally posted by TG12345

The Son died.

while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not.

In regards to Caringheart's statement "God did not die"... this is true in the sense that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. God the Son died.

The Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son are one God. The Son died. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.

Confused



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 5:33am
Originally posted by TG12345

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran claim that those who have seen him have seen God?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that He and God are one?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

Ofcourse they didn't because thier books were not corrupted like yours. Why are you stating the obvious? Your fabricated book says this because it's corrupt. Jesus (pbuh) never wanted to be worshipped. He is a creation and you should not worship the creation, you should only worship the Creator. If you'll happen to be alive when Jesus (pbuh) returns to earth, make sure you get your facts straight before you walk up to him wearing a cross.


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 6:16am
nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the remainder after division...
 
You are of course correct.  Clearly you are more than just a pretty face.  I should have been more careful in my equations.
 
OK, how about this for an explanation.  In the following equation:
 
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
I was clearly in error in claiming that the two numbers in red above are equivalent.  But consider the following two equations:
 
1 modulo 2 = 1
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
Here, the numbers 1 and 3 in red are equivalent.  Or, combining these statements into one, we get:
 
3 ≡ 1   (mod 2)
 
So, lets make this equation my mathematical analogy for the Trinity.
 
(I hope this equation reads OK at your end; I tried to insert that weird symbol consisting of three parallel horizontal lines, and had difficulty doing so)
 
(EDIT: hey, it just occured to me that the weird symbol consists of THREE horizontal lines.  Doesn't that make my equation twice as convincing as an argument proving the existance of the Trinity???)
 
********************
 
nospam001 wrote, in reference to a post by Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity? 
 
Actually, I really like Caringheart's analogy.  I believe that the first three forces discovered by humans were electricity, magnetism, and gravity.  We now know that electricity and magnetism are, in fact, the same force.  If science ever does come up with a TOE ("theory of everything"), then we will have proven that gravity, electricity, and magnetism are all the same force.
 
So, then, are these three forces or one force?  In the Trinity, are there 3 gods or 1 god?  I think the analogy is quite good.
 
Of course, this analogy ignores the existance of the weak and strong forces, just as my modulo analogy ignores the fact that:
 
5 mod 2 = 3 mod 2
 
But that's the thing about analogies: they always break down at some point, and we must be careful not to take them too far.
 


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the remainder after division...
 
You are of course correct.  Clearly you are more than just a pretty face.  I should have been more careful in my equations.
 
OK, how about this for an explanation.  In the following equation:
 
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
I was clearly in error in claiming that the two numbers in red above are equivalent.  But consider the following two equations:
 
1 modulo 2 = 1
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
Here, the numbers 1 and 3 in red are equivalent.  Or, combining these statements into one, we get:
 
3 ≡ 1   (mod 2)
 
So, lets make this equation my mathematical analogy for the Trinity.
 
(I hope this equation reads OK at your end; I tried to insert that weird symbol consisting of three parallel horizontal lines, and had difficulty doing so)
 
(EDIT: hey, it just occured to me that the weird symbol consists of THREE horizontal lines.  Doesn't that make my equation twice as convincing as an argument proving the existance of the Trinity???)
 
********************
 
nospam001 wrote, in reference to a post by Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity? 
 
Actually, I really like Caringheart's analogy.  I believe that the first three forces discovered by humans were electricity, magnetism, and gravity.  We now know that electricity and magnetism are, in fact, the same force.  If science ever does come up with a TOE ("theory of everything"), then we will have proven that gravity, electricity, and magnetism are all the same force.
 
So, then, are these three forces or one force?  In the Trinity, are there 3 gods or 1 god?  I think the analogy is quite good.
 
Of course, this analogy ignores the existance of the weak and strong forces, just as my modulo analogy ignores the fact that:
 
5 mod 2 = 3 mod 2
 
But that's the thing about analogies: they always break down at some point, and we must be careful not to take them too far.
 
 
You guys CANNOT be serious! Do you know how stoopid you guys look? All this science has clouded your brains.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 9:44am
what a hot topic. 9 pages in a day.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Rational


Have you lived with a muslim? Have you experienced how a muslim worships God?


Hi Rational,

It's funny you asked that question because I have sometimes thought that the muslim 'lifestyle' would suit me very well.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Rational


I know your faith.


But you do not know the scriptures... you have not searched them for yourself.

These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me, 40 yet you refuse to come to Me to have life. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.  46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”  (the words of Jesus)


31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.  (the words of Jesus)


The new testament is concealed in the old (the prophesy of Jesus to come)
and the old testament is revealed in the new (the coming of Jesus reveals what was hidden in the old testament)


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 11:50am
All Christians will go to hell?  Really?  and what about the non-Christian?
Let us examine.

Man:  "Lord I never knew You"
Jesus:  "and yet you have lived in every way according to what I have taught."
Man:  "Have I Lord?"
Jesus:  "You have always sought the Father and now you see me.  Do you see that I am the Son?"
Man:  "Yes Lord, Yes I do."

and what judgement do you think Jesus will pass on this man?

You see whatever path one has taken, if they have been seeking God, they will one day see the Truth of Jesus... and yes, Jesus is ,the way, to the Father.  Jesus is the One to grant admission to His kingdom.

Just something to ponder.


You do know that satan loves nothing more than to cause strife... to see arguing for no purpose other than the sake of arguing.
Let us converse with one another, not argue over details.

Peace and blessings to all. Heart


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Stating that one God existing as three persons = polytheism on the part of Christians requires as much ignorance of Christianity as stating that ascribing 99+ attributes to God = believing there are 99+ gods on the part of Muslims requires ignorance of Islam.

Stop talking rubbish. I can't take anymore in one day my bin is full.

These are 99 specific Names of Allah, attributes of Allah. They describe Him (Azza Wa Jall). Not a single one of these names "manifested itself on earth as God for us to see", as you believe with your "Son of God". Not a single one of these names was conceived in a woman and later born on earth, as we Muslims believe happened to Jesus (pbuh). Because Jesus (pbuh) is a man, attributes belong to God.

It gets better…
Originally posted by TG12345

Since God exists as three persons...

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died...

Definition of "Person":
1. A human being regarded as an individual.
2. Used in legal or formal contexts to refer to an unspecified individual.
3. A self-conscious or rational being.

Therefore by definition, each one of those "Persons" is an Individual, a self-conscious or rational being.

Definition of "Individual":
1. A distinct, indivisible entity; a single thing, being, instance, or item.
2. A single human being as distinct from a group.

Adjective
Single; separate: "individual tiny flowers".

So, each "Person" is a single, separate, distinct individual. And you have three persons. You say you worship One. By definition, you don't. By definition, you are worshiping three Persons, three Gods.

(God the father) + (God the son) + (God the spirit) = 3

No matter what fancy illustration you use to define 3=1, by definition you're wrong. What you really want is 3=3. Much easier.



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Rational

Quick question, can you tell me where in the Bible that Jesus (pbuh) said "I am God, Worship me"? I want to see this in the Bible if it's there.

Did He say that statement in these exact words? No, He did not.

However, He did make it very clear He is God in other words.


TG, listen to your fellow Christian, our friend Eoah. He's telling you that Jesus is not God.
Originally posted by Eoah

Greetings TG12345...and to all that have offered such interesting discussion on this hot topic.

"You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man."

No, it is you who is wrong! The creator cannot be creation.  The bottom line is that Jesus never said: "I am God", because Jesus is creation.  Even though God resides in Heaven, that doesn't imply that God doesn't reside on earth, for we can experiance the joy and the knowingness of God within creation through the Holy Spirit.  Now the Holy Spirit is not a separate God who is partner to God Almighty, either.  The Holy Spirit is God Almighty who is the one and only.

When Jesus said: "I and my father are one" it is because he is connected to God through the Holy Spirit.  Now, in that sentence it only seems like the Holy Spirit is a separate from God Almighty in Heaven.  God in Heaven and God on Earth (Holy Spirit) is a totally seamless awesome universal one being that is totally beyond our comprehention!!!  But, I love him and I live by him.  And Jesus is my spiritual role model, but even though I am a Christian, Prophet Mohammed is my spiritual role model too.  God bless them both!

There is nothing in the Bible that equates God as 3; there is nothing in the Bible that equates God with 2.  But, over and over in the bible God is one all the way, baby!  And the Quran backs that up over and over again that the Bible is true in the statement that God is one!  The council of Nicea can't argue with that.  And the council of Nicea don't have the authority to say God is 3 because they're not Prophets anointed by God.

Now TG12345, I might have alot of contempt for them "Jesus Idol worshippers",  but, I respect you and love you simply because you are on this forum with the courage to discuss your spiritual convictions.  May the One God Bless you.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 2:46pm
Just as there are muslims without full understanding, there are those that call themselves Christian who lack knowledge and understanding... who are astray in their thinking.  I respect Eoah, but he himself says he is not a practicing Christian.  He obviously does not believe in the Christian faith even though he associates himself with it due to his family of origin.  mho


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 2:50pm
All Christians will go to hell?  and what about the non-Christian?
Let us examine.

Man:  "Lord I never knew You"
Jesus:  "and yet you have lived in every way according to what I have taught."
Man:  "Have I Lord?"
Jesus:  "You have always sought the Father and now you see me.  Do you see that I am the Son?"
Man:  "Yes Lord, Yes I do."

and what judgement do you think Jesus will pass on this man?

You see whatever path one has taken, if they have been seeking God, they will one day see the Truth of Jesus... and yes, Jesus is ,the way, to the Father.  Jesus is the One to grant admission to His kingdom.

Just something to ponder.


You do know that satan loves nothing more than to cause strife... to see arguing for no purpose other than the sake of arguing.
Let us converse with one another, not argue over details.

Peace and blessings to all. Heart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 2:56pm
The new testament(mystery) is concealed in the old (the prophesy of Jesus to come)
and the old testament(mystery) is revealed in the new (the coming of Jesus reveals what was hidden in the old testament)


 ...that I might fully declare God's Word--that sacred mystery which up till now has been hidden in every age and every generation, but which is now as clear as daylight to those who love God.



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Rational


Confused



Your ability to copy and paste silly faces is amazing and astounding. When you have something to actually add to the discussion, let me know.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Rational

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran claim that those who have seen him have seen God?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that He and God are one?

Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

Originally posted by TG12345

Ofcourse they didn't because thier books were not corrupted like yours. Why are you stating the obvious? Your fabricated book says this because it's corrupt. Jesus (pbuh) never wanted to be worshipped. He is a creation and you should not worship the creation, you should only worship the Creator. If you'll happen to be alive when Jesus (pbuh) returns to earth, make sure you get your facts straight before you walk up to him wearing a cross.


You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.

When you meet Jesus, hopefully it will be before and not after you die and have to face Him and explain why you denied His divinity and suffering on the cross for you.

Speaking of corrupted holy books, the Quran can't even decide whether the traits and descriptions of Muhammad were hidden by Christians in the mythical "Injil" you believe was revealed to Him, or whether they should look in that same book (or remnants of it) to find him there.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Stating that one God existing as three persons = polytheism on the part of Christians requires as much ignorance of Christianity as stating that ascribing 99+ attributes to God = believing there are 99+ gods on the part of Muslims requires ignorance of Islam.


Originally posted by TG12345

Stop talking rubbish. I can't take anymore in one day my bin is full.

Salaam Alaikum, Rational.

If this discussion is frustrating you or you are unable to respond to my points, no one is forcing you to continue.

Originally posted by TG12345

These are 99 specific Names of Allah, attributes of Allah. They describe Him (Azza Wa Jall). Not a single one of these names "manifested itself on earth as God for us to see", as you believe with your "Son of God". Not a single one of these names was conceived in a woman and later born on earth, as we Muslims believe happened to Jesus (pbuh). Because Jesus (pbuh) is a man, attributes belong to God.

Yet there are 99 of them. So to a person ignorant about Islam that could mean you believe in 99 gods.

Christianity teaches that God exists as three persons... it would take someone ignorant of Christian beliefs to claim it teaches in 3 different gods.

Originally posted by TG12345

Since God exists as three persons...

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died...

Definition of "Person":
Originally posted by Rational

1. A human being regarded as an individual.
2. Used in legal or formal contexts to refer to an unspecified individual.
3. A self-conscious or rational being.

Therefore by definition, each one of those "Persons" is an Individual, a self-conscious or rational being.

Definition of "Individual":
1. A distinct, indivisible entity; a single thing, being, instance, or item.
2. A single human being as distinct from a group.

Adjective
Single; separate: "individual tiny flowers".

So, each "Person" is a single, separate, distinct individual. And you have three persons. You say you worship One. By definition, you don't. By definition, you are worshiping three Persons, three Gods.

(God the father) + (God the son) + (God the spirit) = 3

No matter what fancy illustration you use to define 3=1, by definition you're wrong. What you really want is 3=3. Much easier.


If I believed that each of the three persons is a god, you would be right. But I don't. Neither do any Christians.

We believe one God exists and reveals Himself to humanity as the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. It is simple as that. This may be very different from your view of God, but it does not mean we do not believe He is one.

He is one God, who exists as three persons. Just because in your mind that immediately has to mean there are 3 separate gods does not make it so.


You believe there are 99 attributes of God. That the Quran talks about AlRahim and AlRahman does not mean you worship a Merciful god and
another compassionate god, and they are 2 of the 99 deities Muslims worship.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Eoah

Greetings TG12345...and to all that have offered such interesting discussion on this hot topic.


"You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man."

No, it is you who is wrong! The creator cannot be creation.  The bottom line is that Jesus never said: "I am God", because Jesus is creation.  Even though God resides in Heaven, that doesn't imply that God doesn't reside on earth, for we can experiance the joy and the knowingness of God within creation through the Holy Spirit.  Now the Holy Spirit is not a separate God who is partner to God Almighty, either.  The Holy Spirit is God Almighty who is the one and only.

When Jesus said: "I and my father are one" it is because he is connected to God through the Holy Spirit.  Now, in that sentence it only seems like the Holy Spirit is a separate from God Almighty in Heaven.  God in Heaven and God on Earth (Holy Spirit) is a totally seamless awesome universal one being that is totally beyond our comprehention!!!  But, I love him and I live by him.  And Jesus is my spiritual role model, but even though I am a Christian, Prophet Mohammed is my spiritual role model too.  God bless them both!

There is nothing in the Bible that equates God as 3; there is nothing in the Bible that equates God with 2.  But, over and over in the bible God is one all the way, baby!  And the Quran backs that up over and over again that the Bible is true in the statement that God is one!  The council of Nicea can't argue with that.  And the council of Nicea don't have the authority to say God is 3 because they're not Prophets anointed by God.

Now TG12345, I might have alot of contempt for them "Jesus Idol worshippers",  but, I respect you and love you simply because you are on this forum with the courage to discuss your spiritual convictions.  May the One God Bless you.



Alaikum Salaam Eoah,

You just said the Holy Spirit is God almighty. Do you believe that the Father is God also? You believe God is one, yet you believe He exists as the Father and the Holy Spirit, do you not? Why then is it impossible for Him to be one and exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

If the statement "I and my Father are one" meant simply what you mean it says, then surely there would have been other prophets in the Old Testament or Quran who would have said such a thing. Someone (other than Jesus) also would have surely said He would judge the nations and condemn sinners to hell and doers of good to heaven, or that those who have seen him have seen the Father. If you can find me just one example of a prophet other than Jesus saying that, I will be more likely to consider this argument you are making.

I find it interesting that while you claim to be a Christian, you also make the statement that Muhammad is a Prophet and that he is your spiritual role model.

Do you know that he denied the crucifixion of Jesus?

If you agree with him that Jesus was not crucified, then I am sorry to tell you this but you are not a Christian. Unless you deny what Christ did for you on the cross, you cannot accept Muhammad as a prophet of God or a spiritual role model.




Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Rational



TG, listen to your fellow Christian, our friend Eoah. He's telling you that Jesus is not God.


I can direct you to sites ran by your "fellow Muslims", who will tell you that hell will be emptied according to Islam, that Muhammad didn't stone anyone, and that the hadiths are Satanic fabrications.

I can direct you to other sides by "fellow Muslims" like Irshad Manjit who will tell you Islam needs to be reformed and that homosexuality is ok according to the Quran.

I have nothing against Eoah, but from his post that I just read and responded to, I believe he does not understand the truth about Jesus. You would probably argue that Irshad Manjit and Islam Revolution do not understand the truth about Islam.

Two can play this game.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the remainder after division...
 
You are of course correct.  Clearly you are more than just a pretty face.  I should have been more careful in my equations.
 
OK, how about this for an explanation.  In the following equation:
 
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
I was clearly in error in claiming that the two numbers in red above are equivalent.  But consider the following two equations:
 
1 modulo 2 = 1
3 modulo 2 = 1
 
Here, the numbers 1 and 3 in red are equivalent.  Or, combining these statements into one, we get:
 
3 ≡ 1   (mod 2)
 
So, lets make this equation my mathematical analogy for the Trinity.
 
(I hope this equation reads OK at your end; I tried to insert that weird symbol consisting of three parallel horizontal lines, and had difficulty doing so)
 
(EDIT: hey, it just occured to me that the weird symbol consists of THREE horizontal lines.  Doesn't that make my equation twice as convincing as an argument proving the existance of the Trinity???)
 
********************
 
nospam001 wrote, in reference to a post by Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity? 
 
Actually, I really like Caringheart's analogy.  I believe that the first three forces discovered by humans were electricity, magnetism, and gravity.  We now know that electricity and magnetism are, in fact, the same force.  If science ever does come up with a TOE ("theory of everything"), then we will have proven that gravity, electricity, and magnetism are all the same force.
 
So, then, are these three forces or one force?  In the Trinity, are there 3 gods or 1 god?  I think the analogy is quite good.
 
Of course, this analogy ignores the existance of the weak and strong forces, just as my modulo analogy ignores the fact that:
 
5 mod 2 = 3 mod 2
 
But that's the thing about analogies: they always break down at some point, and we must be careful not to take them too far.
 
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren

You guys CANNOT be serious! Do you know how stoopid you guys look? All this science has clouded your brains.


Note to Abu Loren:

Salaam Alaikum.

Before you break Islamicity forum rules (again) by insulting other posters and to avoid bringing more embarrassment on yourself, consider using a spell checker.

It's spelled s-t-u-p-i-d. Not s-t-o-o-p-i-d.

End of Note.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 4:27am
‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by Caringheart

You do know that satan loves nothing more than to cause strife... to see arguing for no purpose other than the sake of arguing.
Let us converse with one another, not argue over details.

Hi Caringheart, I don't see anyone arguing here. The details being discussed are very important, they're the difference between Heaven and Hell in Muslim believes. There is a great purpose and lesson to be learned here, if only you'd see it. This debate is annoying satan, it's killing him because we're exposing his lies and deciet. We're bringing the truth out and this drives him crazy, he can't stand it.

Claiming that God had a Son is very serious to Allah (Subhanahu wa ta'ala). He (almighty) warns against this matter several times in the Quran to signify the seriousness it has.

"They say, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him," ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:116 - 116 )

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:116 - 116 ) I see artisitc drawing of the virgin Mary and and baby Jesus everywhere in Ukraine, it's obvious they are idols being worshipped.

"[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/6:101 - 101 )

"
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?" ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:30 - 30 )

"They have said, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He; He is the [one] Free of need. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. You have no authority for this [claim]. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/10:68 - 68 )

"
It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/19:35 - 35 )

"
And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken [for Himself] a son." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/19:88 - 88 )

"Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. [If there had been], then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have sought to overcome others. Exalted is Allah above what they describe [concerning Him]." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/23:91 - 91 )

"Unquestionably, it is out of their [invented] falsehood that they say, ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/37:151 - 151 ) "Allah has begotten," and indeed, they are liars." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/37:152 - 152 )

"If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah, the One, the Prevailing." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/39:4 - 4 )

"Say, [O Muhammad], "If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of [his] worshippers." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/43:81 - 81 ) Exalted is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/43:82 - 82 ) Subhan Allah, God is saying that if He had a son, Mohammad would be the first of [his] worshippers!

"
And [it teaches] that exalted is the nobleness of our Lord; He has not taken a wife or a son" ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/72:3 - 3 )

"He neither begets nor is born, ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:3 - 3 ) Nor is there to Him any equivalent." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:4 - 4 )


Very serious matter indeed.


-------------
الله


Posted By: Eoah
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 9:50am
Thankyou Rational for backing me up. I love you brother!

People read my introduction, because what I say there is somewhat relevant to what we are talking about here.  No has yet responded to it and I don't want to feel all ignored!!!@#!

I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest.  It must be a tiny minority.  Maybe less than 5%?

I was just reflecting the other day on the term "Unity in Christ".  Think about it: "Unity in Christ" is "Disunity in God", because unity in Christ separates you from all other religions of the One God.   Christians who believes that "Jesus is Lord" are essentially incapable of religious tolerance, because they are locked away in their own self imposed prison along with all their arrogance and smugness.

  "And the truth shall set you free!"

Idealistically, I would like to see both Christian Submitters and non Christian Submitters studying both the Bible and the Quran with Muslims.  And all support one another in their faiths.  Not only is that genuine "Unity in God", but it is religious tolerance on steriods!!!

And with Christian Submitters and others you are less likely to have st**id head-banging circular arguments.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 12:56pm
Greetings Rational,

Yes but quran also says 'to each his own religion... God leads to whom He wills' [my paraphrase]
'to you your beliefs and to me my own'

If one of us is astray in our belief we will answer to God.

What I am addressing is not allowing this difference in beliefs to divert us, and blind us to what is evil, and the intents of satan.

Fighting one another over these beliefs would be evil, and would serve not the intents of God, but of satan.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 1:00pm
It is interesting to me that last night I watched a muslim woman explaining the qur'ans version of Mary's conception, and she spoke of how allah breathed his spirit into the womb of Mary...
and yet muslims do not consider this child divine... ?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by Eoah

No has yet responded to it


I did.  Smile

"I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest."
I worship one God, but I believe in Jesus and in what He said.

"Idealistically, I would like to see both Christian Submitters and non Christian Submitters studying both the Bible and the Quran with Muslims.  And all support one another in their faiths.  Not only is that genuine "Unity in God", but it is religious tolerance on steriods!!!"
Only if we truly follow the same God.

I agree though, argument over beliefs gets us nowhere, if you've read some of my other posts.  Smile


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Rational


Confused



Your ability to copy and paste silly faces is amazing and astounding. When you have something to actually add to the discussion, let me know.


Assalamo Alaik TG, Please don't be upset. The face icon means "Confused" that's all.


-------------
الله


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Rational


Confused



Your ability to copy and paste silly faces is amazing and astounding. When you have something to actually add to the discussion, let me know.


Assalamo Alaik TG, Please don't be upset. The face icon means "Confused" that's all.


Wa alaikum salaam Rational,

I am not at all upset, I guess I found it a bit annoying and thought you were trying to be insulting.

When I find something in Islam confusing or disagreeable, I always say what that is and try to provide the reasons for my disagreement, usually backing whatever points I make with quotes from the Quran, hadiths or other Muslim sources.

You have used the word "rubbish" in the past to describe my beliefs, something I would never do with yours regardless of how false I believe them to be. So I guess seeing the face made me think you were trying to be insulting.

I guess you showing a face icon was your way of saying you were confused. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to get across.

Salaam.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by Eoah

Thankyou Rational for backing me up. I love you brother!

People read my introduction, because what I say there is somewhat relevant to what we are talking about here.  No has yet responded to it and I don't want to feel all ignored!!!@#!

I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest.  It must be a tiny minority.  Maybe less than 5%?

I was just reflecting the other day on the term "Unity in Christ".  Think about it: "Unity in Christ" is "Disunity in God", because unity in Christ separates you from all other religions of the One God.   Christians who believes that "Jesus is Lord" are essentially incapable of religious tolerance, because they are locked away in their own self imposed prison along with all their arrogance and smugness.

  "And the truth shall set you free!"

Idealistically, I would like to see both Christian Submitters and non Christian Submitters studying both the Bible and the Quran with Muslims.  And all support one another in their faiths.  Not only is that genuine "Unity in God", but it is religious tolerance on steriods!!!

And with Christian Submitters and others you are less likely to have st**id head-banging circular arguments.


Eoah,

Salaam alaikum. I noticed you used the word "Submitters". What did you mean by that?

Are you by any chance an adherent of the Submitters group? If not, please accept my apologies and correct me. The language you are using just sounds similar to what I read on their site.

http://www.submission.info/index.html

I am just curious.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 5:18pm
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.

Yes I did ask you that. I read those versus very thoroughly. They did not convince me that I should worship Jesus (pbuh). In fact, they lean towards him being a man dependant on God, because he constantly relies on the father when he speaks and identifies the father as his superior, and God does not have a superior. Jesus does not explicitly say "I am God" or anything close to that, and he does not say "Worship me" or anything close to that. God (Almighty) has always been very explicit when identifying Himself, He explicitly declares and glorifies Himself as God and to be worshiped. He (Almighty) wants to be known. Jesus on the other hand never did this because if he was God, he would have made it straightforward for us to recognise him as God. Instead, we're disputing this because the Bible doesn't do justice to your claim that he is God. You are depending on implicit statements that don't conclusively prove that he is God, you even said it yourself "God However, He did make it very clear He is God in other words." Exactly my point, why is God using other words to tell us he is God? Those other words could mean God to you, man to me. They are not concrete. If he was indeed God, he would have been absolutely clear about his claim to be God.

Let's see what Jesus (pbuh) said, explicitly:

John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"

Here a messenger is talking to God. Explicit and clear. A Muslim accepts wholeheartedly that this verse is the words of Jesus (pbuh) because it's identical to the first pillar of Islam, the Shahada, which every muslim declares:

"There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger"

Two messengers worshiping the same One God.

John 20:17
"Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Here Jesus (pbuh) clearly equates
his father and God as being our father and God, the same one God. So Jesus and the rest of us share the same God. Jesus is like us, a creation that has a God. Therefore he cannot be God. And if he was God, he could have said "I am ascending to myself", but he didn't.

John 14:28
"for My Father is greater than I"

If jesus (pbuh) was claiming to be God, then he would not say that the father is greater than him, because they would be the same.



-------------
الله


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Eoah


I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest.  It must be a tiny minority.  Maybe less than 5%?

 
G'day mate (I'm not an Aussie)
 
Well what is the definition of a Christian? A follower of Christ. A Christian is taught that Jesus is devine and the NT is overtaken by Pauline Trinitarians so if a Christian accept Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) just as the Messiah and not devine then he/she is thinking outside the box.
 
However, I have heard the term 'Unitarian Christian' before and I think more and more "Christians" are coming around to the idea that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was not devine.
 
On another thread Carignheart asked why God would breathe His spirit into Jesus (Alayhi Salaam). Surely the answer is very simple, it was to show that God can do anything and to show that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was a miracle birth through a virgin. Also to show to the doubters that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was indeed the promised Messiah.
 
Why does his birth or his life needs to have devine qualities? Surely the idea that God Almighty can live among his creatures is abominable?


Posted By: Eoah
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:10am
Posted by TG12345:

"Alaikum Salaam Eoah,

You just said the Holy Spirit is God almighty. Do you believe that the Father is God also? You believe God is one, yet you believe He exists as the Father and the Holy Spirit, do you not? Why then is it impossible for Him to be one and exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?"

Because the Son is NOT God and the ideology of trinity is NOT in the Bible:  Yes, I acknowledge the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost exist in the Bible, but when these 3 are exploited by Satan, through the council of Nicea, into 3 Gods. Now that is a heresy that is an insult to God and his commandments!

Do you know that he denied the crucifixion of Jesus?

No.  Please show me the verses please.  I do in fact believe that the crucifixion happened.

  And if you want to judge me as being a non Christian, that is your opinion.  But, I know in my heart what I am and God can see in my heart what I am.  I don't need your permission to be a Christian.


Posted By: Eoah
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 1:32am
Posted by Abu Loren:

G'day mate (I'm not an Aussie)
 
Well what is the definition of a Christian? A follower of Christ. A Christian is taught that Jesus is devine and the NT is overtaken by Pauline Trinitarians so if a Christian accept Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) just as the Messiah and not devine then he/she is thinking outside the box.
 
However, I have heard the term 'Unitarian Christian' before and I think more and more "Christians" are coming around to the idea that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was not devine.

Gidday Abu Loren.  Assalamu alaykum to you. ( I haven't figgered out how to get a quote box, so italics will have to do.)

I googled Unitarian Church and I guess I am not so alone in my beliefs.

What you say is well put.

  Personally, I don't need miracles to believe in Jesus:  All I need is his life and his teachings.  I don't want to argue whether the miracles happened or not.  But my own personal miracle was when I became a Christian at the age of 10 years old and experianced the Holy Spirit for the first time.  It was totally shocking in its unexpectedness; I had no idea I could feel so much joy.  I was actually asked: "Do you want  to ask Jesus to come into your life?"  At the time I just assumed that "Getting Jesus into my life" was just a manner of speaking that actually mean't "-getting God into my life through acknowledging Jesus as my saviour".  At the time, it never occurred to me that Christians actually worshipped some sort of "Jesus Deity" -  That would be soooo against the 10 commandments!!!  Don't even think about it!

I grew up where when you go to church they say: "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" and that it was called the 'Trinity'.  And, let's face it: I believe in the Father; I believe in the Son; I believe in the Holy Ghost and I still do.  But, if someone had told me that the Trinity was believing in 3 Gods in 1 God....that is a despicable Blasphemy against God no matter how many Christians believed in it!


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 4:50am
Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Wa alaikum salaam.

Originally posted by TG12345

You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.

Originally posted by Rational

Yes I did ask you that. I read those versus very thoroughly. They did not convince me that I should worship Jesus (pbuh). In fact, they lean towards him being a man dependant on God, because he constantly relies on the father when he speaks and identifies the father as his superior, and God does not have a superior. Jesus does not explicitly say "I am God" or anything close to that, and he does not say "Worship me" or anything close to that. God (Almighty) has always been very explicit when identifying Himself, He explicitly declares and glorifies Himself as God and to be worshiped. He (Almighty) wants to be known. Jesus on the other hand never did this because if he was God, he would have made it straightforward for us to recognise him as God. Instead, we're disputing this because the Bible doesn't do justice to your claim that he is God. You are depending on implicit statements that don't conclusively prove that he is God, you even said it yourself "God However, He did make it very clear He is God in other words." Exactly my point, why is God using other words to tell us he is God? Those other words could mean God to you, man to me. They are not concrete. If he was indeed God, he would have been absolutely clear about his claim to be God.

If these other words mean He is saying He is only a man, then again, let me ask you:

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?

If according to you, these were just "implicit statements", then surely there would have been other prophets who would have said such things.

There weren't. They were all merely human beings. Jesus was much more than that.

Jesus was worshiped several times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him. One would think that if He was not God but merely a man, He would have told the people worshiping Him to worship God alone. I am sure that is what Muhammad would have done, wouldn't he?


Originally posted by TG12345

Let's see what Jesus (pbuh) said, explicitly:

John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"

Here a messenger is talking to God. Explicit and clear. A Muslim accepts wholeheartedly that this verse is the words of Jesus (pbuh) because it's identical to the first pillar of Islam, the Shahada, which every muslim declares:

"There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger"

Two messengers worshiping the same One God.

Let's look at some of the context of the passage, and then tell me if you still think He was merely a messenger.

John 17:1-5

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?

If you can find me any proof of Muhammad or any other messenger or prophet claiming he had glory with God before the world existed, it would help to serve your cause and show that Jesus was a messenger like any other prophet. Good luck with that.

Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. As man, He called the Father His God.

Originally posted by TG12345

John 20:17

"Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Here Jesus (pbuh) clearly equates
his father and God as being our father and God, the same one God. So Jesus and the rest of us share the same God. Jesus is like us, a creation that has a God. Therefore he cannot be God. And if he was God, he could have said "I am ascending to myself", but he didn't.

I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.

Jesus was both man and God while on earth.

Also, later in John 20, Thomas saw Jesus. He didn't believe He could have been alive after the crucifixion (another fact that Islam denies) and declared that unless he see His hands and the mark of the nails and put his hands into His side (which was pierced by the spear), he would never believe. Jesus then appeared and  let Thomas do just that.

Thomas then cried "My Lord and my God!"

That would have been an excellent oppurtunity for Jesus to rebuke Thomas for calling Him his God.

Instead, He said this:

“Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


John 20:11-29

11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, "#fen-ESV-26872b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26872b - b ] “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”—and that he had said these things to her.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples

19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, "#fen-ESV-26875c" - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26875c - c ] Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Jesus and Thomas

24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, "#fen-ESV-26880d" - d ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26880d - d ] was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The Purpose of This Book

30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.




Originally posted by TG12345

John 14:28

"for My Father is greater than I"

If jesus (pbuh) was claiming to be God, then he would not say that the father is greater than him, because they would be the same.



If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father.

Philippians 2:4-11

Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, "#fen-ESV-29380a" - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29380a - a ] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, "#fen-ESV-29382b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29382b - b ] being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 7:33pm
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?

Because they are not God, including Jesus (alayhi assalam). Jesus did not claim divinity. If you have read that in the Bible in other words, then either you have misunderstood the verse due to brainwashing or it is not his words. The Bible is not to be trusted. Allah did not send Himself to live among His creation to "allow" them to kill Him. Take a step back and think about it.

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus was worshiped several times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him.

Let's try this one more time. Please show me in the Bible where Jesus said "worship me" or the father said "worship Jesus" or someone else said "I worship Jesus". In those words, not in other words. I want to see the words "Worship" and "Jesus". Good luck with that.

Originally posted by TG12345

John 17:1-5

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?

Read verses John 17:1-4, it's obvious that a messenger is praying to his Lord, his God. The context from 1-4 clearly refutes your claims. Verse 5 could mean anything, so again nothing concrete.

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. As man, He called the Father His God.

You're saying that God is suffering from schizophrenia. Astakfur Allah

Originally posted by TG12345

I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.

I didn't share my opinion on this verse. If you take out the portion with "father", you still have the same problem. It serves as evidence against the idea that Jesus is God.

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus was both man and God while on earth.

Jesus was man and God down here, while God the father was chilling up there?

Originally posted by TG12345

"Supposing him to be the gardener"

Why did she think that Jesus (alyhi assalam) was the "gardener"?

Originally posted by TG12345

"When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord"
“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

Why didn't he reveal his face instead? How do people best recognise one another, by their faces or their hands/nails/sides?

Originally posted by TG12345

If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father.

The question remains, why?


-------------
الله


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 8:01pm
TG12345 and Caringheart,

When I asked about God dying (in your belief), TG initially said that God died temporarily and Caringheart said that God didn't die. After that, you both gave a similar answer, that the Son died, the Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

Summary:
Originally posted by TG12345

So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.

I asked, "If He died who brought Him back?", TG said:
Originally posted by TG12345

He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.

You say you worship ONE God.

I want to know, Did the ONE God die?


-------------
الله


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 3:07am
For TG12345
 

Sahih International

 

And We have certainly diversified in this Qur'an for the people from every [kind of] example; but man has ever been, most of anything, [prone to] dispute.

And nothing has prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them and from asking forgiveness of their Lord except that there [must] befall them the [accustomed] precedent of the former peoples or that the punishment should come [directly] before them.

And We send not the messengers except as bringers of good tidings and warners. And those who disbelieve dispute by [using] falsehood to [attempt to] invalidate thereby the truth and have taken My verses, and that of which they are warned, in ridicule.

And who is more unjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away from them and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.

18:54-57



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 3:16am
For Caringheart
 

Sahih International

 

And We will present Hell that Day to the Disbelievers, on display –

Those whose eyes had been within a cover [removed] from My remembrance, and they were not able to hear.

Then do those who disbelieve think that they can take My servants instead of Me as allies? Indeed, We have prepared Hell for the disbelievers as a lodging.

Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?

[They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work."

Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance.

That is their recompense - Hell - for what they denied and [because] they took My signs and My messengers in ridicule.

18:100-106



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:25am
Hi Eoah,

Quote: Personally, I don't need miracles to believe in Jesus: All I need is his life and his teachings. I don't want to argue whether the miracles happened or not. But my own personal miracle was when I became a Christian at the age of 10 years old and experianced the Holy Spirit for the first time. It was totally shocking in its unexpectedness; I had no idea I could feel so much joy. I was actually asked: "Do you want to ask Jesus to come into your life?" At the time I just assumed that "Getting Jesus into my life" was just a manner of speaking that actually mean't "-getting God into my life through acknowledging Jesus as my saviour". At the time, it never occurred to me that Christians actually worshipped some sort of "Jesus Deity" - That would be soooo against the 10 commandments!!! Don't even think about it!
I grew up where when you go to church they say: "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" and that it was called the 'Trinity'. And, let's face it: I believe in the Father; I believe in the Son; I believe in the Holy Ghost and I still do. But, if someone had told me that the Trinity was believing in 3 Gods in 1 God....that is a despicable Blasphemy against God no matter how many Christians believed in it!

Response: --- These early life experiences are genuine and in making the decision to accept Jesus as Savior, --- is what the Scripture teaches, --- And the experience of Joy is the Holy Spirit that comes to dwell within, and will be our Guide through life.
--- If we rebel against God’s guidance through His Holy Spirit, we can ‘quiet’ this voice of guidance, and go back to following our own conscience.

However, as we grow up going to Church, or Churches, we learn about the Word of God, and how the Scriptures apply to our lives.

Nevertheless, we are taught some doctrines (teaching) like the trinity, --- which is not taught in the Scriptures, but was decided in a Church meeting in 325 AD. --- It was a faulty doctrine from the beginning, and in most Churches it has found its way in as a ‘tradition,’ --- but it causes all the controversy that continues on this forum.
--- I don’t have an argument with what others believe because that is the way they have learned it, but they have difficulty in explaining their belief.

While Christians praise and glorify Jesus, our worship is to God through Jesus as it says in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

And Jesus said we are to ‘Pray to the Father, in Jesus’ name.’ --- We are not taught to worship Jesus, but to worship God. --- Nor are we to follow any ‘Unitarian’ teaching which is unscriptural, --- but while we keep reading the Scriptures and following the teachings of Jesus, our Savior and Role Model, --- and asking God to guide us by His Holy Spirit, --- then we will be led rightly, will we not?
And we can know the Joy that came with our first encounter when we were young.

Jesus was CALLED the Son of God in Luke 1:
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.
--- (I capitalized CALLED to emphasize that Jesus was not another God.)
--- But as John said in 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him,
10 He (The Word) was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This is what I understand:
Through the virgin birth Jesus was the Perfect man, --- and the Word (Logos), ‘that was in the beginning with God’ came down to indwell Jesus in a human body. --- So Jesus (meaning Savior) had a human body, and Christ (meaning Messiah) was the Word that came down from heaven to indwell Him, so this ‘Unique’ One was the Manifestation of God in the world.


Placid



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:46am
Originally posted by Rational


I want to know, Did the ONE God die?


Greetings Rational,

No, God is Spirit.  Spirit does not die.
I find it impossible to explain Father, Son and Holy Ghost being One.  I believe God has to reveal it to you and your heart has to be open before God can reveal it.
It would be like, my hand could die because of gangrene, but I would still live.  A part of me can die while I continue to exist.
Jesus was only the flesh part of God the undescribable, entity.

Salaam,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Peace to you also.
Originally posted by TG12345

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?

Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?

Originally posted by Rational

Because they are not God, including Jesus (alayhi assalam). Jesus did not claim divinity. If you have read that in the Bible in other words, then either you have misunderstood the verse due to brainwashing or it is not his words. The Bible is not to be trusted. Allah did not send Himself to live among His creation to "allow" them to kill Him. Take a step back and think about it.

Whether the Bible is to be trusted or not is another discussion. However, it is clear that according to Christ's words... that are recorded in it... He was claiming to be God.


Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus was worshiped several times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him.

Originally posted by Rational

Let's try this one more time. Please show me in the Bible where Jesus said "worship me" or the father said "worship Jesus" or someone else said "I worship Jesus". In those words, not in other words. I want to see the words "Worship" and "Jesus". Good luck with that.

Jesus did not say "worship me" in the Bible, and neither did the Father say to worship Christ. That does not disprove the fact that He was worshiped and that He said things about Himself that indicated He is God.

Let me ask you a question. Where in the Quran does Allah say that He is not Satan? Where does Muhammad say Allah is not Satan?

If this exact phrase is not found (I want to see the words "Allah" and "Satan" with "not" between them), does that mean that Allah is Satan?

Do you see how senseless this challenge is?


Originally posted by TG12345

John 17:1-5

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?

Originally posted by Rational

Read verses John 17:1-4, it's obvious that a messenger is praying to his Lord, his God. The context from 1-4 clearly refutes your claims. Verse 5 could mean anything, so again nothing concrete.

If verse 5 could mean anything, then what does it mean? Did Muhammad share glory with God before the world existed?

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. As man, He called the Father His God.

Originally posted by Rational

You're saying that God is suffering from schizophrenia. Astakfur Allah

I find that to be quite insulting, actually, but as we are debating and I know you are not attacking or insulting me purposefully I'll let it pass.

God does not suffer schizophrenia. Saying He is schizophrenic because as Jesus (the Son) He called Himself (the Father) God isn't different from saying that according to Islam God is incompetent since of the 124,000 messengers He sent only one's message came through.

Originally posted by TG12345

I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.


Originally posted by Rational

I didn't share my opinion on this verse. If you take out the portion with "father", you still have the same problem. It serves as evidence against the idea that Jesus is God.

But the verse does say Father. You can't take it out without changing what it said.

I already explained why Jesus referred to the Father as God.

Originally posted by TG12345

Jesus was both man and God while on earth.


Originally posted by Rational

Jesus was man and God down here, while God the father was chilling up there?

What's with the slang? Should I start referring to Muhammad as "Mo"?

To answer your question, yes. God existed simultaneously as Jesus and was fully man and God at the same time, while also existing as the Father in heaven and the Holy Spirit?

Originally posted by TG12345

"Supposing him to be the gardener"

Originally posted by Rational

Why did she think that Jesus (alyhi assalam) was the "gardener"?

Because she did not recognize Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

"When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord"
“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

Originally posted by Rational

Why didn't he reveal his face instead? How do people best recognise one another, by their faces or their hands/nails/sides? 


Because one of the times He tried to do that, people thought He was a spirit.

This is detailed in Luke

Luke 24:36-42

36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, "#fen-ESV-26023b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2024&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26023b - b ] 43 and he took it and ate before them.

When Jesus appeared to some of His disciples, they thought they had seen a spirit. He told them to touch His hands and feet.

Originally posted by TG12345

If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father.

Originally posted by TG12345

The question remains, why?


It was God's will to do so.

Like you believe it was His will to send 124,000 prophets to earth even though only one's message according to what your faith teaches would be not corrupted.

I won't speculate on God's mind and what I am about to share is my opinion only, however perhaps one reason why He would choose to make Himself inferior would be to demonstrate to human beings what it means to be humble to God and to sacrifice. If God was able to make Himself humble and to love sacrificially, what excuse have we for not doing so?



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