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Discussion and challenge to MahditheSeeker

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24596
Printed Date: 21 December 2014 at 12:51pm


Topic: Discussion and challenge to MahditheSeeker
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: Discussion and challenge to MahditheSeeker
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 10:23pm
Salaam Alaikum everyone.

This thread is a continuation of the discussion MahditheSeeker and I are having. Although others may jump in if they wish, I would prefer if you didn't since what I have to say to him I do not have to say to other Muslim posters in this forum.



No, I am not going off topic. I answered your "challenge", then presented a challenge of my own. You ignored it for several days, and then feebly accuse me of "going off topic". Let me restate again. Muhammad said that if a person has 7 awja dates first thing in the morning, he or she will be immune from toxins/poisons for the whole day. Have you tried that out with someone from your mosque, like you wanted Christians do try out what is in Mark 16? You also said that if you see Christians today (even one) doing what is described in Mark 16, you will believe the Bible and give your life to Jesus. I showed you examples of Christians handling snakes. Have you converted? Or are you going to run off again and hide?

1.Start a different topic if you want to issue a challenge.
2.I will need a live demonstration from one of those snake handlers with a snake i know is poisonous, preferably a wild black mamba.
3. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"
In the meantime, you can help me find people who can do all the signs mentioned. Once again, i cannot believe based on rumours. talk is cheap. I need a demonstration.
4. In case you want to bring it up, simply handling any snake is nothing special as there are non poisonous snakes, or did the writers of the Bible not know that? It is only special if you survive a snake bite of a poisonous snake.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=10


MahditheSeeker,

Salaam Alaikum. Earlier in that thread you stated that if you find a person doing what is in Mark 16, you will believe the Bible and give your life to Jesus.


http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PID=171669#171669">bullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 12:40am
still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=4


http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PID=170711#170711">bullet Topic: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS
    Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:37pm
MARK 16;15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"

i am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=1


I found and presented examples, reported by news agencies like Daily Mail, Washington Post, and CNN. I also found an article in National Geographic. Very clearly, there are Christians who handle poisonous snakes.

For your convenience, I will repost what I have written, with the links.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153933/Revealed-The-secretive-deadly-church-services-Appalachias-serpent-handlers-lift-rattlesnakes-heads-drink-poison-God.html#ixzz1wnVo5c1t


James Nye from Mail Online visited a pentecostal church in the US whose members have handled poisonous snakes and drank strychinine during servcies... and continue to do so. It is one of many such churches, which takes Mark 16:15 literally and believes it applies to believers in the 20th/21st century.

Between 1920s and when this article was written, around 100 church snake bite related deaths have been documented. However, thousands have handled these snakes.

It is estimated that up to 100 people have died in the 100 or so years since the practice began, which supporters claim is a small number considering thousands of worshipers have handled thousands of deadly snakes in that time.

Also, the snake handlers also take in strychinine.

Aware of the public fascination with serpent handling, Wolford wanted to use his platform to spread his beliefs to a new younger congregation.

But, even if holding the rattlesnakes and copperheads wasn't dangerous enough, serpent handlers also ingest deadly strychnine during services.

'In my life I’ve probably drunk two gallons of it,' said Wolford.

National Geographic interviewed Tom Burton, a professor who studied such churches and attended their services for over 30 years. He claims only certain individuals commonly handled such serpents. Commonly handled would mean they do this pretty regularly.

Tom Burton, a professor emeritus at East Tennessee State University, has attended many snake-handling services and studied the practice for over 30 years. He's the author of Serpent Handling Believers, an authoritative study of the belief. Burton says that much of what goes on at such churches would be familiar to other Christians. "If you were there when they were not taking up serpents, or even during other parts of a service where they did, it would be like many other Pentecostal groups," he explained. "There is singing, preaching, laying on of hands, praying, testifying, and that sort of thing. It's kind of an expressive church service where people freely share emotions, a very participatory service like most Pentecostal services."

But those anointed by the Holy Spirit answer the calling by taking up the deadly reptiles or by drinking poisons. Burton said: "Only certain individuals commonly handle serpents, and it goes without saying that they warn people: 'If you're not directed by the Holy Ghost to do this, you'd better not.'"


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers_2.html

The snake handling, poison drinking church has been visited by many reporters, researches, tv crews and photographers.

For years, this tiny church in an unincorporated hamlet of 1,191 souls has been world-famous for its death-defying handlers of serpents. Reporters, researchers, photographers and TV crews have come here to track Pentecostals who brandish poisonous snakes, drink strychnine and play with fire as a testimony of their faith.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-11-10/lifestyle/35281689_1_snake-handlers-drink-strychnine-wolford

Here is a CNN video of church members handling deadly snakes during a service in the Appalachia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwBVcsWYJd8


http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=7

Your challenge was answered, I gave you examples of Christians handling deadly snakes. Why do you insist on a live demonstration? Do you believe CNN, National Geographic, Daily Mail and Washington Post made the stories up? Can you show me evidence of that?

Why do you insist on a black mamba? Don't you know that rattlesnakes are poisonous?

Initially you didn't have anything to say about black mambas, live demos, or someone who fulfills all the signs. Mark 16:16 does not say that all of these signs will accompany every believer. One should be enough for you.

I answered your original challenge by providing documented evidence of Christians who handle deadly snakes, one of the signs of the believers in Mark 16. You said if you could find just one person in the world doing that, you would convert.

Mark 16 did not say poisonous snakes, neither does it say that those who do so will die or be harmed, it does not even say anything about people being bitten by poisonous snakes or surviving. You are adding to your original challenge, which already has been answered btw.

However, one of the guys who handled the snake at church was bitten several times and did not die the first few times.

This is from the Associated Press.

Wolford had been bitten on three previous occasions, but did not seek medical attention as he regarded the injury as a test of faith.

“He helped me to understand the faith instead of just documenting it,” photographer and eyewitness Lauren Pond told the Washington Post. “He was one of the most open pastors I’ve ever met. He was a friend and a teacher.”

“I didn’t see the bite, I saw the aftermath” she added.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pastor-killed-in-rattlesnake-attack-during-church-service.html?fb_action_ids=10150816679266292,4048657581909&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_ref=type:read,user:nft9J0TxTi8Bc9gGretcsw8PA8w,type:read,user:TStIxT3A80X-4T4hxVUOubSNIDs&fb_source=other_multiline

Here is another story, of a Christian man being bitten by a rattlesnake and surviving.

An Axton man still is recovering from a near-fatal rattlesnake bite he suffered May 3.

Ernest Marlowe was unavailable Friday to do an interview about a rattlesnake bite, according to his wife, Peggy Marlowe. But she recounted what happened so the public will know that rattlesnakes and copperheads are in the Mountain Valley community. ...

Ernest Marlowe kept a positive attitude, even cutting up with nurses at times, his wife said. "He showed no signs of being afraid. I was terrified," she said. "He said he thought he was going to make it."� And if even he didn't, he told his crying sister, he would get to see his parents in heaven sooner, Peggy Marlowe said. She said of her husband's survival: "I know prayer did it. ... He was so close to death." During the ordeal, she called "prayer warriors" - including her preacher, family members and friends - and asked them to pray for her husband. "I've seen too many things that prayer answered that doctors can't explain," she said. Ernest Marlowe also is "thankful the Lord saved his life," his wife said. "I thank he realizes how close he came to dying and appreciates the little things more" now.


http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/article.cfm?ID=13991

And another story, quite disturbing. A deranged pastor who forced his wife to put her hand into a jar or rattlesnakes. She was bitten twice... and survived. Her husband went to jail for murder, and inshAllah will never see the light of day again.

Former Snakehandling Preacher Escapes Prison Briefly

Man In Prison For Trying To Kill Wife With Snake

The Associated Press/February 25, 2003

Childersburg, Ala. -- A former snakehandling preacher, serving a 99-year sentence for trying to kill his wife with a rattlesnake, escaped briefly from a work detail.

Prison officials said Glenn Summerford, who has served about 11 years of his sentence, slipped away from the work detail for about 45 minutes Friday before being returned to custody. He then was moved from the work center at Childersburg to the state prison in St. Clair County.

Summerford, 58, was convicted of attempted murder in 1992 after his wife, Darlene, testified that he grabbed her by the hair and forced her to put her hand in a cage of rattlesnakes after hitting it with a pipe to make the snakes mad. She was bitten twice but survived.

Summerford at the time handled snakes as pastor of the Church of Jesus With Signs Following near Scottsboro.


http://www.rickross.com/reference/snake/snake6.html


Unless you believe that this is all "rumour" and that all of the news articles I posted were fabricated, there is definitely proof that Christians who handle snakes or even come into contact with poisonous snakes can get bitten by them and survive.

So your 4th point

In case you want to bring it up, simply handling any snake is nothing special as there are non poisonous snakes, or did the writers of the Bible not know that? It is only special if you survive a snake bite of a poisonous snake. 

has been answered... even though you did not say this (or any of the other points) in your original challenge... which has been answered.



If I demanded you keep your word I would demand you give your life to Jesus but I wouldn't do such a thing... I want you and all people to do it because they believe, not because they made rash challenge and lost.



Now, a challenge along the lines of the challenge you threw out to Christians. You claimed that people who cannot do the things in Mark 16 are "pretend believers", although I have shown you opinion of Biblical scholars that Mark 16:16 applied mostly to the early church.

In response, I would challenge you to prove Muhammad was right in a very fascinating thing that he said.

Muhammad, whom you believe is a prophet from God, stated that if a person eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by magic or poisons/toxins for that day.

This is documented in the following hadiths.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


Sahih Muslim

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening.  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080 - #023 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080#5080 - #5080 )

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=dates+poison&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html


Muhammad not only said that 7 dates first thing in  the morning will make sure the person who eats them will not be harmed by poison/toxin or magic that day, but he also made it clear that no poison can harm a person who does this, and that the dates contain healing for all kinds of magic or toxins.


If you believe his words are to be trusted, I would encourage you to test it out. Invite someone from your mosque over for supper or lunch. Make sure they have eaten 7 ajwa dates that morning. Make sure they are from Medina. It's important.

Then have them pet a rattlesnake or black mamba (seems to be your fave kind of serpent), or play with a black widow. Make sure they get bitten.

If Muhammad was right, then the toxins will not harm that person. If they get sick and/or die, I guess that will have proven he was wrong. Either that, or the person you just killed and/or severely harmed wasn't a "real Muslim". Try it on someone else. Just do it quickly, before the police find out and put you in jail for murder, because... in all likelihood... the person will either get very sick or die.


* I hope you do not actually try this challenge, because I don't want to hear of you doing life in a penitentiary or institution. Regardless of what Muhammad stated, dates will not protect you or anyone else from all toxins.









Replies:
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 10:05am
Your challenge was answered, I gave you examples of Christians handling deadly snakes. Why do you insist on a live demonstration? Do you believe CNN, National Geographic, Daily Mail and Washington Post made the stories up? Can you show me evidence of that? Why do you insist on a black mamba? Don't you know that rattlesnakes are poisonous? Initially you didn't have anything to say about black mambas, live demos, or someone who fulfills all the signs. Mark 16:16 does not say that all of these signs will accompany every believer. One should be enough for you. I answered your original challenge by providing documented evidence of Christians who handle deadly snakes, one of the signs of the believers in Mark 16. You said if you could find just one person in the world doing that, you would convert. Mark 16 did not say poisonous snakes, neither does it say that those who do so will die or be harmed, it does not even say anything about people being bitten by poisonous snakes or surviving. You are adding to your original challenge, which already has been answered btw. However, one of the guys who handled the snake at church was bitten several times and did not die the first few times.

so i am supposed to believe based on something any tom, dick and harry can do. i assumed the snake had to be poisonous and bite me. i guess that was my mistake.




‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)
do not go believing everything you find in any hadith book.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 12:04pm
Assalamo Alaikom,

Sorry but I have to jump in. Your example about someone doing an experiment and poisoning themselves is false, irrelevant  and does not prove anything with respect to the hadieth by Mohammad (pbuh). 

First, it's not the 7 dates that protects, it's Allah (SWT) that is protecting, because they followed the advice given by the Messenger (pbuh). That shows trust in the Messenger (pbuh) and this pleases Allah (SWT). 

Second, it's not logical or intelligent for someone to expect that Allah (SWT) would protect them against a danger that they intentionally brought to themselves. Why would someone seek protection against a danger that they choose for themselves? Only a fool would do such a thing. Allah (SWT) told us not to kill ourselves, "And do not kill yourselves ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:29 - 29 )". Therefore, it would not be wise to expect Allah (SWT) to give aid to those that intentionally harm themselves because we are told against it.

As the saying goes,
"You've Dug Your Grave, Now Lie in It"

The Prophet (pbuh) gave this advice to those that are seeking protection against unforeseen and unpredictable dangers. His words (pbuh) are to be trusted.



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 4:40am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Your challenge was answered, I gave you examples of Christians handling deadly snakes. Why do you insist on a live demonstration? Do you believe CNN, National Geographic, Daily Mail and Washington Post made the stories up? Can you show me evidence of that? Why do you insist on a black mamba? Don't you know that rattlesnakes are poisonous? Initially you didn't have anything to say about black mambas, live demos, or someone who fulfills all the signs. Mark 16:16 does not say that all of these signs will accompany every believer. One should be enough for you. I answered your original challenge by providing documented evidence of Christians who handle deadly snakes, one of the signs of the believers in Mark 16. You said if you could find just one person in the world doing that, you would convert. Mark 16 did not say poisonous snakes, neither does it say that those who do so will die or be harmed, it does not even say anything about people being bitten by poisonous snakes or surviving. You are adding to your original challenge, which already has been answered btw. However, one of the guys who handled the snake at church was bitten several times and did not die the first few times.

so i am supposed to believe based on something any tom, dick and harry can do. i assumed the snake had to be poisonous and bite me. i guess that was my mistake. [/QUOTE}
We all make mistakes, no worries.

The wife of the pastor who tried to murder her was bitten by poisonous rattlesnakes though. So was the guy who was bitten and almost died. As was the other pastor who was bitten a few times and survived the first few.

Perhaps you should retract your challenge? Wink



[QUOTE=Mahdi The Seeke]‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)
do not go believing everything you find in any hadith book.

Again, the hadiths of Musnad Ahmad are highly regarded as being genuine. What about what Muhammad said in hadith Muslim?

Even if one wants to argue that according to the hadiths 663 and 664 in Bukhari Muhammad is merely saying that dates have healing effects for some things and do not protect against poisons- which I don't believe is the case, and I haven't seen him say anything in the hadiths to clarify this- hadith Muslim states very clearly that he believed no poisons will harm someone who had 7 of these dates in the morning.

Unless you can show me that this hadith is a weak one or fabricated (and can also show me this about the hadith in Musnad Ahmad's collection) I am afraid my point still stands that this is something he clearly said.

Salaam.



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 4:49am
Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo Alaikom,

Sorry but I have to jump in. Your example about someone doing an experiment and poisoning themselves is false, irrelevant  and does not prove anything with respect to the hadieth by Mohammad (pbuh). 

First, it's not the 7 dates that protects, it's Allah (SWT) that is protecting, because they followed the advice given by the Messenger (pbuh). That shows trust in the Messenger (pbuh) and this pleases Allah (SWT). 

Second, it's not logical or intelligent for someone to expect that Allah (SWT) would protect them against a danger that they intentionally brought to themselves. Why would someone seek protection against a danger that they choose for themselves? Only a fool would do such a thing. Allah (SWT) told us not to kill ourselves, "And do not kill yourselves ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:29 - 29 )". Therefore, it would not be wise to expect Allah (SWT) to give aid to those that intentionally harm themselves because we are told against it.

As the saying goes,
"You've Dug Your Grave, Now Lie in It"

The Prophet (pbuh) gave this advice to those that are seeking protection against unforeseen and unpredictable dangers. His words (pbuh) are to be trusted.



Wa alaikum salaam, rational. I presented this challenge in response to MahditheSeeker's challenge to Christians. The Bible also tells Christians to not put our Lord God to the test (Luke 4:12). When Paul was bitten by the snake and shook it off into the fire, he also did not play with it intentionally.

Since I am aware of Islam's prohibition on suicide, I suggested that a way to test the hadiths would be to offer someone else who has eaten 7 dates a rattlesnake or black mamba or black widow spider and have the person bitten. To make it not an issue of suicide on their part, do it in a way they wouldn't know until they got bit. Your subject wouldn't be committing a suicidal act.

If the hadith is correct, they wouldn't be harmed or die.

Not a test I would encourage anyone to do, because I don't believe that eating 7 dates in the morning would protect a person from harm against a toxin. I think if you had an unsuspecting person who eats 7 dates in the morning bitten by a poisonous snake or unknowingly ingest a poisonous or toxic substance, he or she would die or at least get very sick or harmed, regardless of what Muhammad said, not to be rude.




Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 7:24am
Assalamo alaikom warahmato Allah

We need to be clear on something before moving on. Self harming goes against islam, even when the person is not attempting a suicidal act. Harming the body in any way is unlawful in Islam. The act of self harm is an irrational act and if anyone thinks that Allah (SWT) is pleased to see anyone harming themselves then they are fools.

Allah (SWT) said:
"and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining] (195)"

Originally posted by TG12345

When Paul was bitten by the snake and shook it off into the fire, he also did not play with it intentionally.

But the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing it intentionally. Some have died. They were doing this in the name of Jesus (pbuh) but they still died. The excuse they give is "it was their time to die". That makes perfect sense. It was just a coincidence. Moving on…

Originally posted by TG12345

Since I am aware of Islam's prohibition on suicide, I suggested that a way to test the hadiths would be to offer someone else who has eaten 7 dates a rattlesnake or black mamba or black widow spider and have the person bitten. To make it not an issue of suicide on their part, do it in a way they wouldn't know until they got bit. Your subject wouldn't be committing a suicidal act.

I must say, I haven't laughed this much in a while. Not to be rude.

Alright, we can't prove this on ourselves because as we explained earlier, seeking protection then harming yourself is foolish, so this is out of the question. What other options do we have? Yes try it on someone else.

So let's see, for this experiment we need a human "subject". We need to ensure that the subject eats 7 dates in the morning. Then, without the subject looking (otherwise it won't work), we place a poisonous snake next to them and hope for the best. Once we have a successful bite, we tell the subject how we lied and deceived them into….

Wait, are you suggesting that I commit sin?


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 5:51pm
Sounds like two guys headed for Fla for the sake of a challenge. I guess the first one to post after wins. Don't forget to take the figs along.

-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 4:24am
Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo alaikom warahmato Allah

We need to be clear on something before moving on. Self harming goes against islam, even when the person is not attempting a suicidal act. Harming the body in any way is unlawful in Islam. The act of self harm is an irrational act and if anyone thinks that Allah (SWT) is pleased to see anyone harming themselves then they are fools.

Allah (SWT) said:
"and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining] (195)"

The Bible says the same.

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?  You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price.  Therefore honor God with your body," ( http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Cor.%206.19-20 - 1 Cor. 6:19-20 ).

This verse is speaking about sexual immorality and how it damages the body, but it is clear that our bodies are from God and we are not allowed to damage them. This would include other means of course.


Originally posted by TG12345

When Paul was bitten by the snake and shook it off into the fire, he also did not play with it intentionally.


Originally posted by Rational

But the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing it intentionally. Some have died. They were doing this in the name of Jesus (pbuh) but they still died. The excuse they give is "it was their time to die". That makes perfect sense. It was just a coincidence. Moving on…

Not sure what your point here is. People have done st**id things in the name of Islam and other religions too, Christianity is no different in that sense.


Originally posted by TG12345

Since I am aware of Islam's prohibition on suicide, I suggested that a way to test the hadiths would be to offer someone else who has eaten 7 dates a rattlesnake or black mamba or black widow spider and have the person bitten. To make it not an issue of suicide on their part, do it in a way they wouldn't know until they got bit. Your subject wouldn't be committing a suicidal act.

Originally posted by Rational

I must say, I haven't laughed this much in a while. Not to be rude.

Alright, we can't prove this on ourselves because as we explained earlier, seeking protection then harming yourself is foolish, so this is out of the question. What other options do we have? Yes try it on someone else.

So let's see, for this experiment we need a human "subject". We need to ensure that the subject eats 7 dates in the morning. Then, without the subject looking (otherwise it won't work), we place a poisonous snake next to them and hope for the best. Once we have a successful bite, we tell the subject how we lied and deceived them into….

Wait, are you suggesting that I commit sin?


Again, the challenge was in response to MahditheSeeker's challenge to Christians that we do what is in Mark 16, and his claim that he can't find a 'real Christian' because none of us can do that... in spite of the fact that these signs were for the most part described in the Book of Acts and most Christians believe this was meant only for the early church.

It was to him, not to all Muslims because I didn't see other posters here making such 'challenges' to Christians.

But going back to my "challenge" (which is a response to the "challenge" posted by MahditheSeeker), you wouldn't be sinning by having your subject bitten because according to what Muhammad said, nothing would happen to him. He wouldn't even be harmed! If you were able to extract some rattlesnake venom and put it into his or her drink or meal, they probably wouldn't even notice because according to the hadiths as long as they had their 7 dates in the AM no toxin could harm them!

And if you want to make sure they do not feel any comfort or displeasure or even notice you put something in their food, you can use  botulism! It is odorless! Tasteless! Also one of the most deadliest toxins in existence... but according to what Muhammad taught it would have no effect on a person who had 7 ajwa dates.

http://iaith.tapetrade.net/botulism/

You wouldn't be deceiving your subject in any way, you would just be adding an ingredient to a meal or drink. It is odorless and tasteless... and if Muhammad was right... completely harmless to someone who had 7 dates before breakfast.



In regards to "lying" or "deceiving" your subject with the snakes, you could just say you were doing an experiment to show that Muhammad's words are true and accurate. After all, it's not like you would have harmed him or her in any way. If you use botulism, there is nothing to explain because if Muhammad's advice is true, it would be just another ingredient that wouldn't cause your friend any harm and they wouldn't even notice.



Again, this "challenge" was meant for MahditheSeeker, and is a response to his "challenge". That is why I opened this thread for discussion between me and him.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 4:24am
Originally posted by Webber

Sounds like two guys headed for Fla for the sake of a challenge. I guess the first one to post after wins. Don't forget to take the figs along.


LOL!!!!


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:38am
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

Not sure what your point here is.

It's really not that hard.

You say that Paul did not play with the snake intentionally. Meaning he didn't bring harm to himself, it was an accident, fair enough. But what I'm telling you, is that the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing the opposite, it's intentional, they are bringing harm to themselves. They believe that they won't be injured because it's in the name of Jesus. In other words, they believe that they are receiving divine protection from Jesus, even though they are doing it to themselves. Why are they doing it? Because they wanted to prove this in the name of Jesus. Instead some have died. It wasn't a coincidence that they died, the poison killed them. It's called suicide. They proved the opposite of what they intended. They worshipped the name of Jesus (pbuh) and not the one true God, so Allah (SWT) put shame on them.

Originally posted by TG12345

People have done st**id things in the name of Islam and other religions too, Christianity is no different in that sense.

Now you're saying that the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing "st**id things"? First you defend them and bring evidence to validate the "work they do in the name Jesus", referencing CNN, National Geographic and other sources. And now, you say they are doing "st**id things"? You need to make up your mind.

Originally posted by TG12345

you wouldn't be sinning by having your subject bitten because according to what Muhammad said, nothing would happen to him.

Whether or not the messenger said this hadith, an experiment won't prove anything because Allah knows you are implementing it by way of deciet. You are deceiving a human and putting them in harms way just to satisfy yourself. And I say "harms way" because it would be foolish to expect protection from Allah by way of deciet. Allah knows what you are doing. This is victimising a human being. Allah (SWT) would not be pleased.

Originally posted by TG12345

And if you want to make sure they do not feel any comfort or displeasure or even notice you put something in their food, you can use  botulism! It is odorless! Tasteless! Also one of the most deadliest toxins in existence... but according to what Muhammad taught it would have no effect on a person who had 7 ajwa dates.

You sound like a pro.

Originally posted by TG12345

You wouldn't be deceiving your subject in any way, you would just be adding an ingredient to a meal or drink. It is odorless and tasteless... and if Muhammad was right... completely harmless to someone who had 7 dates before breakfast.

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.

Originally posted by TG12345

In regards to "lying" or "deceiving" your subject with the snakes, you could just say you were doing an experiment to show that Muhammad's words are true and accurate. After all, it's not like you would have harmed him or her in any way. If you use botulism, there is nothing to explain because if Muhammad's advice is true, it would be just another ingredient that wouldn't cause your friend any harm and they wouldn't even notice.

As I said above, God knows what we are doing in the expense of someone else. It's like saying I'll vaccinate you against a virus and then, without you knowing, I'll infect you with it. It's a sin because I didn't take your consent.

As said before, your 7 dates "challenge" can't prove anything. On the other hand, the pastors have proved that Jesus can't always protect them because they died.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته





Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 7:34am
Originally posted by Rational


السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته


My Arabic is pretty poor, I took some lessons before going to the West Bank but that was more than 2 years ago. Care to share with me what that means?


I think the first two words says "Assalamu Alikum", is that correct? what does the rest of the sentence say? I see the word "Allah" and the words "wa" several times.

Is it Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh?

May the peace, mercy, and blessings of Allah be with you ?

http://islam.about.com/od/glossary/g/gl_salaam.htm


May God's peace, mercy and blessings be on you also.

Originally posted by TG12345

Not sure what your point here is.

Originally posted by Rational

It's really not that hard.

You say that Paul did not play with the snake intentionally. Meaning he didn't bring harm to himself, it was an accident, fair enough. But what I'm telling you, is that the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing the opposite, it's intentional, they are bringing harm to themselves. They believe that they won't be injured because it's in the name of Jesus. In other words, they believe that they are receiving divine protection from Jesus, even though they are doing it to themselves. Why are they doing it? Because they wanted to prove this in the name of Jesus. Instead some have died. It wasn't a coincidence that they died, the poison killed them. It's called suicide. They proved the opposite of what they intended. They worshipped the name of Jesus (pbuh) and not the one true God, so Allah (SWT) put shame on them.

I believe they are putting God to the test, and don't believe that Jesus called people to handle snakes at church services.

The members don't actually believe they will not be injured or killed, though. If you read the articles carefully, you will note:

Churches that practice serpent handling tend to be wary of publicity. This desire for privacy stems, in large part, from negative media attention that inevitably follows the practice after injuries or deaths due to snakebite occur.

"There are over 100 documented deaths from serpent bites," said Hood. "In every tradition, people are bitten and maimed by them. They risk their lives all the time by handling them. If you go to any serpent-handling church, you'll see people with atrophied hands, and missing fingers. All the serpent-handling families have suffered such things."

"It's a misconception that these people believe they won't get hurt," Hood explains. "The Bible says to take up serpents, not that they won't be bitten. If they're bit, that's up to God. The issue is obedience to God. There's no magic power type of stuff. They know the reality of it because so many families have had people hurt and killed."

Junior McCormick has seen many serpent-handling bites, and experienced them himself. None of those experiences have deterred him from answering his calling. "Some people were bit, and I believe God was ready for them and their time had come," he said. "I was bit 14 times, by rattlesnakes, copperheads, water moccasins, and I never used anti venom—all I had was just Jesus. I've been bitten badly, but I'll go back the next week and take them out [serpents] again."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/pf/1926804.html


Originally posted by TG12345

People have done st**id things in the name of Islam and other religions too, Christianity is no different in that sense.

Originally posted by Rational

Now you're saying that the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing "st**id things"? First you defend them and bring evidence to validate the "work they do in the name Jesus", referencing CNN, National Geographic and other sources. And now, you say they are doing "st**id things"? You need to make up your mind.

I didn't say I am defending them. I was showing to MahditheSeeker, who claimed he would believe in the Bible if he saw people doing what is in Mark 16, that there are Christians who handle snakes. I didn't say what they were doing was right.

I don't believe handling was meant to be done in church, I believe it applied to accidents, when Paul was bitten on the island. I also believe it applied to the early church for the most part.

I did show him that there are Christians who do handle snakes. That was all.

Originally posted by TG12345

you wouldn't be sinning by having your subject bitten because according to what Muhammad said, nothing would happen to him.

Originally posted by Rational

Whether or not the messenger said this hadith,
 an experiment won't prove anything because Allah knows you are implementing it by way of deciet. You are deceiving a human and putting them in harms way just to satisfy yourself. And I say "harms way" because it would be foolish to expect protection from Allah by way of deciet. Allah knows what you are doing. This is victimising a human being. Allah (SWT) would not be pleased.

You wouldn't be seeing if God protects you, you would be seeing if He protects His unsuspecting believing follower who ate 7 dates.

If the hadith is true, you wouldn't be putting that person in harm's way because as long as he had 7 dates, Muhammad said no toxin would harm him. There would be no victim, as long as Muhammad was telling the truth and his teachings really do come from God Himself.


Originally posted by TG12345

And if you want to make sure they do not feel any comfort or displeasure or even notice you put something in their food, you can use  botulism! It is odorless! Tasteless! Also one of the most deadliest toxins in existence... but according to what Muhammad taught it would have no effect on a person who had 7 ajwa dates.

Originally posted by Rational

You sound like a pro.

Just trying to make the hypothetical experiment as pleasant as possible for the subject.

Originally posted by TG12345

You wouldn't be deceiving your subject in any way, you would just be adding an ingredient to a meal or drink. It is odorless and tasteless... and if Muhammad was right... completely harmless to someone who had 7 dates before breakfast.

Originally posted by Rational

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.

How so?

Originally posted by TG12345

In regards to "lying" or "deceiving" your subject with the snakes, you could just say you were doing an experiment to show that Muhammad's words are true and accurate. After all, it's not like you would have harmed him or her in any way. If you use botulism, there is nothing to explain because if Muhammad's advice is true, it would be just another ingredient that wouldn't cause your friend any harm and they wouldn't even notice.

Originally posted by Rational

As I said above, God knows what we are doing in the expense of someone else. It's like saying I'll vaccinate you against a virus and then, without you knowing, I'll infect you with it. It's a sin because I didn't take your consent.

Do you share every single ingredient you put into a meal or beverage when your friends come over? Do you give them a breakdown of every vegetable, meat, spice and liquid you used? Or do you just make them a good meal or cup of tea and if they or when they ask how you made it you tell them?

Why would you need to mention you added some botulism to the meal? According to Muhammad, it would have had no effect anyways.

Also, I take back what I said about not testing it on oneself, based on the ayah you provided.

( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:28 - 28 ) O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only [in lawful] business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful. ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:29 - 29 )


A person who would allow him/herself to be bitten by a poisonous snake or to ingest some botulism would not be killing or even harming him or herself, since the dates would protect them. Allowing a black mamba to bite you after a breakfast of 7 ajwa dates would only be suicidal if Muhammad's advice was wrong.



Originally posted by Rational

As said before, your 7 dates "challenge" can't prove anything.

If someone were to be dumb or cruel enough to actually carry it out on an unsuspecting Muslim who eats 7 dates in the morning, it would prove that Muhammad's words were wrong, because the person would get very sick and/or die.

Originally posted by Rational

On the other hand, the pastors have proved that Jesus can't always protect them because they died.

They never actually stated that He would always protect them from the snake bites and injury or death that come with them. You haven't read the links I gave you, or you chose to ignore them.

Originally posted by Rational


والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

You too. Smile

Blessed be the Name of the Lord.



Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:45am
 
 To TG12345

 I hope the following article will help you to understand the true meanings of eating seven dates.

  http://letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html - Hadith, ‘Ajwa Dates and Science


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 
 To TG12345

 I hope the following article will help you to understand the true meanings of eating seven dates.

  http://letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html - Hadith, ‘Ajwa Dates and Science


Assalamuu Alaikum Mansoor Ali,

Thank you for the article. I will read it and write my responses to it in red.


Hadith, ‘Ajwa Dates and Science

Other day a person, seemingly a Christian polemicist left me an email, challenging me on something which he thought was really a big deal. He quoted the following Hadith:

Narrated Sa’d: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates). (Sahih Bukhari)

And then hurled the challenge;

are you today ready to take this simple challenge and eat 7 Ajwa dates and then drink poison and survive ?

The response:

The unfortunate fact is that most people in our time think that just reading any translation of Hadith texts, they can lay hands upon, is quite enough to have a full grasp of it and they find themselves worthy enough to comment. The practice might have had some justification if Hadith -or for that matter any classical Islamic text- was in some dead language hardly known to even the followers of the religion as it happened with Judaism and Christianity.

A basic principle in studying any historical narration is to understand the environment and context in which it originated. While it may not be possible to find details as to when and why was some particular words were uttered, another reasonable way is to see the complementing narrations before looking to reach a conclusion.

Sa’d told of hearing Allah’s Messenger say, “He who has a morning meal of seven ‘ajwa dates will not suffer harm that day through toxins or magic.” (Bukhari, Hadith 5327 and Muslim, Hadith 3814)

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya contain healing, and they are an antidote (when taken as) first thing in the morning.” (Muslim, Hadith 3815)

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

Al-‘Aliya is the named applied to some villages a few miles east of Medina.

Narrated ‘Urwah: ‘Aisha used to order to make a habit of or taking in regular intervals seven ‘ajwah dates, in the state of fasting for seven mornings. (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, Hadith 23945)

Now considering all these narrations it becomes clear that the benefits mentioned are for link to certain specifics.
1- It is about 'Ajwa dates from al-Aliya, a particular locality near al-Medina
2- The benefit is for eating them early in the morning breaking the night fast with it
3- It is for the one who eats them regularly as Aisha (RA) used to instruct people. Her instruction matters for she is one of the narrators of the Hadith in question.

So far, so good. According to this interpretation, those who eat ajwa dates from Aliya early in the morning while breaking the fast with it are people who Muhammad's words apply to.   

Now let me explain a few things:

"The Poison/Toxin": The word actually used is "summ" which means, poison or toxin. The problem is some people think it is about instantly killing poisonous stuff. However the fact mention in Hadith that it benefits when taken as the first thing early in the morning and on regular basis itself establishes that it is about toxins, which are indeed poisonous and harmful to the body. Also see the following evidence.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-bvNAYPfhJCA/ThNn6cCHJxI/AAAAAAAAAU8/VPPNT89rXlE/s1600-h/clip_image002%25255B4%25255D.jpg">clip_image002

Al-Mawarid Arabic-English Dictionary Dar el-Elm Lilmalayin, Beirut 1995 p.642

Ibn Qayyim in his Tibb al-Nabawi writes: "For the people of al-Medina, dried dates are their staple like wheat is to other people. In addition, dried dates from the area of al-Aliyah in al-Medina are one of the best kinds of dates ... Dates are a type of fruit that is also used for its nutritional and medicinal value, being favorable for most bodies and for their role in strengthening the natural heat. Moreover, dates do not produce harmful wastes or excrement like other types of food and fruits. Rather, dates preserve the body wastes from being spoiled and from rotting, especially for those who are used to eating dried dates." (Healing with the Medicine of the Prophet, Translated by Abd el-Qader bin Abd el-Azeez, Dar al-Ghadd al-Gadeed, al-Mansoura (Egypt), 2003 p.121)

Here are a couple of more narrations,

Narrated Sa'd: I suffered from an illness. The Messenger of Allah –may Allah bless him- came to pay a visit to me. He put his hands on my chest and I felt its coolness at my heart. He said: “You are a man suffering from heart sickness. Go to al-Harith ibn Kaladah, brother of Thaqif. He is a man who gives medical treatment. He should take seven ajwah dates of Medina and grind them with their kernels, and then put them into your mouth.” (Sunan Abu DawudHadith 3875)

It is reported, though through a weak chain, that ‘Ali –may Allah be pleased with him- said: “And whoever eats seven ‘ajwa dates every day it kills every disease in the stomach.” (Kanzul Ummal, Hadith 28472)

These show that they have healing effect against heart ailment and problems of the stomach.
And we have scientific http://guide2herbalremedies.com/dates-protect-arteries/ - evidence that dates protect arteries and lower the risks of heart attack. Cholesterol that causes many heart problems itself http://ezinearticles.com/?Four-Types-of-Toxins-Harmful-to-Our-Body&id=5925446 - is a toxin . Moreover some of the ingredients of the dates are protective against digestive system related problems, e.g. dietary fiber helps eliminate human intestinal toxic substances, researchers http://en.ytyaoye.com/xwzx_detail/newsId=df4178ce-cc72-497a-beb0-cca6ed98f318&comp_stats=comp-FrontNews_list01-1288750998573.html - suggest .

According to the author, the word "poison" should be translated not as poisons but as toxins, which are harmful and poisonous stuff.

Muhammad prescribed dates for stomach problems and heart ailments. Hadiths 28472 and 3875 point out the benefits of dates for heart sickness and every disease in the stomach.

Hadiths 28472 and 4875, as correct as the first one is anyways (I don't believe that dates will kill every stomach disease- do you think they would make salmonella poisoning or Ecoli go away?), do not change the fact that Muhammad said that dates protect from all kinds of magic and toxins, or that he said that no toxin or magic can harm someone who has had 7 of them in the morning. He didn't say only cholesterol or digestive system problems, he said all kinds of toxins.



‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html

5080 

 Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening. 

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080#5080


I changed my challenge to involve snake poison or botulism, which are toxins in the truest sense of the word. I don't believe that anyone, regardless if they eat 7 dates first thing in the day or not, would not be harmed by a black mamba or rattlesnake venom or botulism.

Also, does the scientific evidence the article presents show that dates protect against certain kinds of toxins when eaten first thing in the morning and on a regular basis only, as Muhammad said?

Magic: As to magic, there are two possibilities. If it is literally a reference to magic as it was and is known then we cannot actually say much about it in the light of modern scientific research. Western science has, to the best of my knowledge, only skeptical notions about it which do not have any real value. (We earlier discussed a similar case about the http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/06/understanding-hadith-evil-eye.html - Evil-eye )

It may simply be a reference to some diseases caused by apparently unknown factors expressed this way especially taking into account the times in which the statement was made.

The word "Sihr" is so called as "it changes health and soundness to disease" (see E.W. Lane's Lexicon Book I p.1316) and in that sense it is simply a reference to the something causing ailment like the word used to imply toxin poison and is hinted to by the word "or" used in many narrations. This might be a reference to certain radiations that adversely affect human body. And we know certain of the ingredients of dates like Calcium, magnesium, Selenium, Zinc, Vitamin C etc. are http://www.moondragon.org/health/disorders/radtox.html - helpful against radiations .

Interesting view. I don't really have any thoughts or reflections on the magic part.

Summary of the above:

The two things mentioned above are for dates in general and as clear from the Hadith reports the ‘ajwa dates from al-Aliya locality of al-Medina are even more beneficial especially in that particular environment.

With regards to toxins there is no doubt the dates are indeed curative. As to magic more research is possible however whatever is written above suffices to kill the skeptical notions about the Hadith. Those who doubt the Hadith have nothing to substantiate their view. We at least have fair amount of support in favor of our thesis.
The Hadith narrations say, 'ajwa dates from al-Aliya taken regularly as first thing in the morning breaking the fast -in spells of 7 successive days- is a cure against toxins, just as they are helpful as a preventive cure against heart and stomach problems.

If Muhammad said that dates cure against stomach problems and heart problems and left it there, I would have had no argument. However, he specifically made it clear that dates protect against all kinds of magic and toxins and that no toxin or magic can harm someone who had 7 dates that morning.

Snake venom is a toxin. So is botulism. So are a variety of other deadly things.

Seven dates first thing in the AM would not stop a person from getting harmed by either of these things.

LET ME TURN THE TABLES!

While the explanation above is quite enough for any ardent and reasonable observer, for the hate mongers from amongst the Christian missionaries I have a challenge on these lines. And the challenge is to drink the “any deadly thing” and stay unhurt. This is what the Bible promises putting the words into the mouth of Jesus –may Allah bless him.

“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” (KJV, Mark 16:18)

I always wonder how come missionary haters of Islam muster up the courage to talk about Islam. Don’t they ever turn back and have a look at their own house?


Ironically, I brought up this topic as I was "turning the tables" on MahditheSeeker who was challenging Christians to do the things Jesus talked about in Mart 16:18 and stating that those who cannot are true believers.

Acknowledgement: I am indebted to the invaluable help offered by brother Azhan Ahmad in bringing up this article.

Indeed Allah knows the best!


Indeed He does. Allahu Akhbar. Blessed be His Name


Nice talking with you. Allahma3k.




Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 2:50pm
‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

My Arabic is pretty poor, I took some lessons before going to the West Bank but that was more than 2 years ago. Care to share with me what that means?

The arabic you see is the way us muslims greet each other. The "و" (the letter 'waaw') is "and". Why did you go to the Wesk Bank if you don't mind me asking?

Originally posted by TG12345

Is it Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh?

Yes that's it.

Originally posted by TG12345

May the peace, mercy, and blessings of Allah be with you ?

And that's what it means.

Originally posted by TG12345

You wouldn't be seeing if God protects you, you would be seeing if He protects His unsuspecting believing follower who ate 7 dates.
If the hadith is true, you wouldn't be putting that person in harm's way because as long as he had 7 dates, Muhammad said no toxin would harm him. There would be no victim, as long as Muhammad was telling the truth and his teachings really do come from God Himself.

I know we are seeing if this person would be protected, but because we're trying to see (test) this hadith, Allah might negate this protection, to put us to shame because our faith is weak, otherwise why did we need to test? We should have trusted the words of the messenger because that is what Allah told us. This is testing the validity of the messenger himself. Our victim is enjoying a strawberry cheese cake with poison. Allah knows this (as I've said several times already), and as a result, Allah might not fulfil this divine protection. Why should He (Almighty) prove anything to me or you, fully knowing that a human is being deceived for the purpose of testing the words of His messenger (pbuh).

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Rational

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.

How so?

Because you are insisting on deceiving a human into an experiment without their consent. Even if you are fully confident in your antidote ingredient (whatever it may be), you do not have the right to experiment on people without their prior knowledge, in anyway shape or form.

Originally posted by TG12345

Do you share every single ingredient you put into a meal or beverage when your friends come over? Do you give them a breakdown of every vegetable, meat, spice and liquid you used? Or do you just make them a good meal or cup of tea and if they or when they ask how you made it you tell them?

Exactly, a good meal without poison. Even though you might have full faith in the antidote, it's not a good enough reason to not tell them and do it anyway. It's still poison. And obviously you wouldn't tell them about this particular ingredient. No one would serve a dish and then say "oh I hope you like poison because I added some for you!". You wouldn't add it in the first place. The issue is - you're testing the validity of the messengers advice and doing it on someone else without them knowing. A muslim would not do this.

Would you be fine for me to use you as an experiment (a guinea pig) without you knowing and then tell you "I knew it would work"? Ofcourse not. No one does because it's the way that Allah (Almighty) created us. So why would you be ok to experiment on someone else…. I'm repeating myself many times now.

Originally posted by TG12345

A person who would allow him/herself to be bitten by a poisonous snake or to ingest some botulism would not be killing or even harming him or herself, since the dates would protect them. Allowing a black mamba to bite you after a breakfast of 7 ajwa dates would only be suicidal if Muhammad's advice was wrong.

We're taking one step forwards ten steps back.

If a person (a fool actually) eats 7 ajwa dates for the sole purpose of testing the validity of the prophets words, then intentionally drinks poison:
1. It's irrational for a person to protect themselves from a danger for the purpose of bringing the very same danger to themselves. If they did, then either a) they are crazy b) they are careless (ie. suicide/self-inflecting injury/st**id etc)
2. Foolishly testing the validity of a messenger of Allah, instead of having unconditional faith in him
3. This fool is not sincerely seeking protection, this fool is seeking trouble

For those reasons, it's unlikely that Allah would fulfil the aid to such a fool. They would most likely die and be forbidden from Heaven. And Allah knows best.

Originally posted by TG12345

If someone were to be dumb or cruel enough to actually carry it out on an unsuspecting Muslim who eats 7 dates in the morning, it would prove that Muhammad's words were wrong, because the person would get very sick and/or die.

Exactly, we need someone that is cruel. Do you know anyone? Hang-on, now we're cruel because we're looking... This is what I mean, this experiment is impossible! Hence we can't prove anything.

Originally posted by TG12345

They never actually stated that He would always protect them from the snake bites and injury or death that come with them. You haven't read the links I gave you, or you chose to ignore them.

I saw them in a church dancing with snakes and saying Jesus. To me that seems insane regardless of what they say. They are deluded.

Hilarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ3YfT0Iu9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzA9W1HtGd8

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته




Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 15 January 2013 at 10:37am
 
 To TG12345

 The Hadith doesnot imply that taking poison after eating seven dates would be completely harmless.In fact, doing this deliberately is considered as harming one’s self on purpose and this is forbidden in Islam. But we have to undersand that Hadith means that eating seven dates each morning reduces the harmful effects of toxicants. In order to make the process more effective, regularity with eating seven dates in the morning should be maintained. As our Prophet (PBUH) asked us to do.
 
Narrated Sa’d: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).(Sahih Bukhari)

 


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 15 January 2013 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 
 To TG12345

 The Hadith doesnot imply that taking poison after eating seven dates would be completely harmless.In fact, doing this deliberately is considered as harming one’s self on purpose and this is forbidden in Islam. But we have to undersand that Hadith means that eating seven dates each morning reduces the harmful effects of toxicants. In order to make the process more effective, regularity with eating seven dates in the morning should be maintained. As our Prophet (PBUH) asked us to do.
 
Narrated Sa’d: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).(Sahih Bukhari)


Hi Mansoor_ali,

Salaam Alaikum.

I understand this, but the fact is still if someone was bitten by a deadly snake or ingested botulism (willingly/knowingly or unwillingly/unknowingly) he or she would be badly harmed if not killed. That person would not "not be effected".

Islam does indeed teach that harming oneself on purpose is a sin (as does Christianity) but according to the hadiths, a person who eats 7 dates every morning would not be harmed by toxins, so to ingest botulism would not be an act of self-harm, unless of course Muhammad was wrong when he said that no toxins will harm someone who eats 7 dates in the morning.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 15 January 2013 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Rational

‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته


Originally posted by TG12345

My Arabic is pretty poor, I took some lessons before going to the West Bank but that was more than 2 years ago. Care to share with me what that means?

Originally posted by Rational

The arabic you see is the way us muslims greet each other. The "و" (the letter 'waaw') is "and". Why did you go to the Wesk Bank if you don't mind me asking?

Cool. When speaking to non-Muslims, you just say "salaam alaikum"? When I was in the West Bank, I would greet my Palestinian Christian and Muslim friends this way and they'd greet me in kind.

I was in the West Bank with 2 groups, one called Christian Peacemaker Teams and the other International Solidarity Movement. Our job was to document the Israeli army's and settler's abuses of Palestinians and when able to, step in and try to prevent them. It worked to an extent, sometimes we were able to get soldiers to stop harrassing people on the streets when they saw we were filming them. We would also share people's stories with others we know back in our home countries, so their voices would be heard.

I went to the West Bank because as a Christian I believe we are called to hunger and thirst for justice and to be peacemakers, like Jesus said. Soon after I became a believer, I learned about the situation of the Palestinian people and have been trying to follow the events there and speaking out where I live. I am also disgusted by the fact that there are Christians who believe the abuses that Israel is committing are somehow justified and in accordance with the Bible... they aren't. I think God placed it on my heart, laugh if you want and it may sound corny but I believe He did. It took many years before I was able to save up enough and go, and inshAllah one day I will go again.

I went to do what I could to help prevent or at least alleviate the violence. I believe Jesus when He said that what is done to victims of poverty and injustice is done to Him, and so I was honoured to do my small part in serving the Palestinian people.

Wherever I go I try to be a witness to my faith, so I wore the cross I normally wear around my neck and there were times when people saw it and would ask me about my faith and wanted to share their beliefs with me, and we'd have some good discussions. I didn't ever initiate the discussions as this was not a 'missions trip', but I did pray to God for oppurtunities to share my faith in Jesus and He provided. I didn't hand out tracts, try to start churches, preach on street corners, ask people to convert if that's what you were wondering. Neither one of the two groups I went with are into that kind of thing either.

My reason for going was to try to do what I could to stop the oppression of the Palestinian people and to serve Jesus and be a witness to Him.

Hope that helps explain.

Originally posted by TG12345

Is it Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh?

Originally posted by Rational

Yes that's it.


Originally posted by TG12345

May the peace, mercy, and blessings of Allah be with you ?

Originally posted by Rational

And that's what it means.

Cool. Thank you for sharing.

Originally posted by TG12345

You wouldn't be seeing if God protects you, you would be seeing if He protects His unsuspecting believing follower who ate 7 dates.
If the hadith is true, you wouldn't be putting that person in harm's way because as long as he had 7 dates, Muhammad said no toxin would harm him. There would be no victim, as long as Muhammad was telling the truth and his teachings really do come from God Himself.

Originally posted by Rational

I know we are seeing if this person would be protected, but because we're trying to see (test) this hadith, Allah might negate this protection, to put us to shame because our faith is weak, otherwise why did we need to test? We should have trusted the words of the messenger because that is what Allah told us. This is testing the validity of the messenger himself. Our victim is enjoying a strawberry cheese cake with poison. Allah knows this (as I've said several times already), and as a result, Allah might not fulfil this divine protection. Why should He (Almighty) prove anything to me or you, fully knowing that a human is being deceived for the purpose of testing the words of His messenger (pbuh).

I can see your point, but would God allow someone innocent to be harmed because another person is trying to test to see if the words of His prophet are correct?

Would it be fair to the person who is a faithful Muslim and tries to follow Muhammad and eats 7 dates in the morning as he recommended to avoid harm from toxins and magic, to be badly harmed by a toxin in spite of what his prophet said?

Originally posted by Rational

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.

Originally posted by TG2345

How so?

Originally posted by Rational

Because you are insisting on deceiving a human into an experiment without their consent. Even if you are fully confident in your antidote ingredient (whatever it may be), you do not have the right to experiment on people without their prior knowledge, in anyway shape or form.

Perhaps, but if the hadith is true the person would not be harmed.

Originally posted by TG12345

Do you share every single ingredient you put into a meal or beverage when your friends come over? Do you give them a breakdown of every vegetable, meat, spice and liquid you used? Or do you just make them a good meal or cup of tea and if they or when they ask how you made it you tell them?

Originally posted by Rational

Exactly, a good meal without poison. Even though you might have full faith in the antidote, it's not a good enough reason to not tell them and do it anyway. It's still poison. And obviously you wouldn't tell them about this particular ingredient. No one would serve a dish and then say "oh I hope you like poison because I added some for you!". You wouldn't add it in the first place. The issue is - you're testing the validity of the messengers advice and doing it on someone else without them knowing. A muslim would not do this.

Why not add a toxin, if according to Muhammad the person would not be harmed anyways? It would only act as a toxin against a person who followed Muhammad's words if these words were not true, and in fact, eating 7 dates first thing in the morning, even if regularly, does not mean, regardless of what Muhammad said, that no toxin can harm the person on that day.

Originally posted by Rational

Would you be fine for me to use you as an experiment (a guinea pig) without you knowing and then tell you "I knew it would work"? Ofcourse not. No one does because it's the way that Allah (Almighty) created us. So why would you be ok to experiment on someone else…. I'm repeating myself many times now.

If Jesus said that eating 7 dates first thing in the morning would ensure that no toxin would harm a person and this was meant for all people and not only people in a specific period in history, then yes, it would be fine of you to do that. Of course, Jesus said no such thing in the Bible.

Originally posted by TG12345

A person who would allow him/herself to be bitten by a poisonous snake or to ingest some botulism would not be killing or even harming him or herself, since the dates would protect them. Allowing a black mamba to bite you after a breakfast of 7 ajwa dates would only be suicidal if Muhammad's advice was wrong.

Originally posted by Rational

We're taking one step forwards ten steps back.

If a person (a fool actually) eats 7 ajwa dates for the sole purpose of testing the validity of the prophets words, then intentionally drinks poison:
1. It's irrational for a person to protect themselves from a danger for the purpose of bringing the very same danger to themselves. If they did, then either a) they are crazy b) they are careless (ie. suicide/self-inflecting injury/st**id etc)
2. Foolishly testing the validity of a messenger of Allah, instead of having unconditional faith in him
3. This fool is not sincerely seeking protection, this fool is seeking trouble

For those reasons, it's unlikely that Allah would fulfil the aid to such a fool. They would most likely die and be forbidden from Heaven. And Allah knows best.

If the 7 dates in the morning protect against toxins, then drinking a toxin would not be purposefully placing oneself in any danger since Muhammad himself stated that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be harmed.

Originally posted by TG12345

If someone were to be dumb or cruel enough to actually carry it out on an unsuspecting Muslim who eats 7 dates in the morning, it would prove that Muhammad's words were wrong, because the person would get very sick and/or die.

Originally posted by Rational

Exactly, we need someone that is cruel. Do you know anyone? Hang-on, now we're cruel because we're looking... This is what I mean, this experiment is impossible! Hence we can't prove anything.

Of course it is possible. It is perhaps unethical, but it is possible.

I think we both know however, that eating 7 ajwa dates first thing in the morning will not protect a person against all toxins. A person on this diet would very much be harmed if not killed by a rattlesnake bite or ingesting botulism, regardless of how the toxin entered their body.

Whether or not such an experiment could or should be done, it is not true that no toxin can harm a person who eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning.

Originally posted by TG12345

They never actually stated that He would always protect them from the snake bites and injury or death that come with them. You haven't read the links I gave you, or you chose to ignore them.

I saw them in a church dancing with snakes and saying Jesus. To me that seems insane regardless of what they say. They are deluded.

Hilarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ3YfT0Iu9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzA9W1HtGd8

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree with you. However, the videos show their misguidance, and do not disprove what Jesus said in Mark 16.

The Bible also says that we should not put God to the test... yet this is what these people are doing.

The hypothetical experiment I proposed was irrational. One of my reasons for putting it out there was to also show the irrationality of MahditheSeeker's demand that Christians today start picking up black mambas.

This is why I began the thread by stating very clearly it was addressed primarily to him and not to other Muslims on this forum.


I also believe though that the fact that eating 7 dates in the morning will not protect a person from toxins such as botulism or a rattlesnake bite does show that Muhammad was clearly wrong in this statement that he made.


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 1:03am
It would have been good if he had a few dates on that fateful day. It might have saved him a slow and painful death.

-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:29am

‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

I can see your point, but would God allow someone innocent to be harmed because another person is trying to test to see if the words of His prophet are correct?

We don't know. A muslim does not need to do this.

Originally posted by TG12345

Would it be fair to the person who is a faithful Muslim and tries to follow Muhammad and eats 7 dates in the morning as he recommended to avoid harm from toxins and magic, to be badly harmed by a toxin in spite of what his prophet said?

No it wouldn't but you're not listening. If you want to find out because you are disbelieving, then there is nothing stopping you from being cruel and testing it on someone. Then you can let us all know.

Originally posted by TG12345

If Jesus said that eating 7 dates first thing in the morning would ensure that no toxin would harm a person and this was meant for all people and not only people in a specific period in history, then yes, it would be fine of you to do that. Of course, Jesus said no such thing in the Bible.

Muslims would not support any other muslim that disbelieves the words of the messenger (pbuh). Faith and trust is all that is needed.

Originally posted by TG12345

If the 7 dates in the morning protect against toxins, then drinking a toxin would not be purposefully placing oneself in any danger since Muhammad himself stated that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be harmed.

I'll try one more time because this debate is getting nowhere.

A person that eats 7 dates then deliberately drinks poison, is proving his lack of faith. He is a disbeliever. In doing this act, we can agree that he is disobeying God (unless ofcourse you think he is obeying God, then we'll end it here and move to another thread). Because he is disobeying, why would God come to his rescue?

Originally posted by TG12345

I think we both know however, that eating 7 ajwa dates first thing in the morning will not protect a person against all toxins. A person on this diet would very much be harmed if not killed by a rattlesnake bite or ingesting botulism, regardless of how the toxin entered their body.

No sorry, not both. You might think you know. If the messenger said it, then I have a duty to believe him. I believe that God is capable of anything. I told you before, if the messenger said this, then it's not the dates doing the work, it's Allah. We humans will never be able to scientifically prove if dates protect against all toxins, furthermore we'd need to prove that dates protect against magic. Again science falls short. So it's a matter of faith and trust in Allah (Subhanaho Wa Ta'ala).

I've presented my reasons and don't see anything else to add. If you're still not convinced then we'll just have to leave it.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Rational


‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته


Wa antaa aydan.

Originally posted by TG12345

I can see your point, but would God allow someone innocent to be harmed because another person is trying to test to see if the words of His prophet are correct?

Originally posted by Rational

We don't know. A muslim does not need to do this.

If God allowed an innocent person to be harmed, He would be showing him that Muhammad was wrong concerning the dates.

Originally posted by TG12345

Would it be fair to the person who is a faithful Muslim and tries to follow Muhammad and eats 7 dates in the morning as he recommended to avoid harm from toxins and magic, to be badly harmed by a toxin in spite of what his prophet said?

Originally posted by Rational

No it wouldn't but you're not listening. If you want to find out because you are disbelieving, then there is nothing stopping you from being cruel and testing it on someone. Then you can let us all know.

Of course I would never do such a thing. I don't want to have severely harmed or killed a person just to prove Muhammad was wrong.

Originally posted by TG12345

If Jesus said that eating 7 dates first thing in the morning would ensure that no toxin would harm a person and this was meant for all people and not only people in a specific period in history, then yes, it would be fine of you to do that. Of course, Jesus said no such thing in the Bible.

Originally posted by Rational

Muslims would not support any other muslim that disbelieves the words of the messenger (pbuh). Faith and trust is all that is needed.

So you do believe that 7 ajwa dates a day eaten in the morning regularly will protect a person from harm against all toxins?

Originally posted by TG12345

If the 7 dates in the morning protect against toxins, then drinking a toxin would not be purposefully placing oneself in any danger since Muhammad himself stated that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be harmed.

Originally posted by Rational

I'll try one more time because this debate is getting nowhere.

A person that eats 7 dates then deliberately drinks poison, is proving his lack of faith. He is a disbeliever. In doing this act, we can agree that he is disobeying God (unless ofcourse you think he is obeying God, then we'll end it here and move to another thread). Because he is disobeying, why would God come to his rescue?

If the person was doing this to see if God would really save him, this would indeed be an act of disbelief and doubt.

What if he did so to make a powerful proof to a non-Muslim to convince him or her that Muhammad's teachings are indeed true and to bring glory to God?

We both believe the prophets performed miracles (ie Moses with the staff, and Jesus (whom I believe more to be a prophet) raising the dead). The Quran teaches that Pharaoh's men believed Moses was from God after seeing his snake eat theirs.

Clearly, your faith teaches that some non-Muslims were won over by miracles. What if a person allowed himself to intentionally ingest toxin to show to non-Muslims that Muhammad's words are miraculous- that they are from God and can be trusted in any circumstance?

This would then not be a matter of suicide or doubting God, but spreading the message of Islam.

Originally posted by TG12345

I think we both know however, that eating 7 ajwa dates first thing in the morning will not protect a person against all toxins. A person on this diet would very much be harmed if not killed by a rattlesnake bite or ingesting botulism, regardless of how the toxin entered their body.

Originally posted by Rational

No sorry, not both. You might think you know. If the messenger said it, then I have a duty to believe him. I believe that God is capable of anything. I told you before, if the messenger said this, then it's not the dates doing the work, it's Allah. We humans will never be able to scientifically prove if dates protect against all toxins, furthermore we'd need to prove that dates protect against magic. Again science falls short. So it's a matter of faith and trust in Allah (Subhanaho Wa Ta'ala).

I've presented my reasons and don't see anything else to add. If you're still not convinced then we'll just have to leave it.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته



Wa alaykum salaam.

We may have to leave it there then. I am 1000% confident that eating 7 dates a day first thing will not protect a Muslim from all toxins that day. I firmly believe that a person on this diet who would be bitten by a poisonous snake would get very sick and/or die.

This can be easily proven on an unsuspecting Muslim, but I'd never do such a thing because I would never harm another person. Which is what they would suffer... serious harm if not death.. if they were to ingest a poisonous toxin... regardless of what they ate in the morning.

I also believe God is capable of anything. I do not believe He told Muhammad to say that 7 ajwa dates in the morning will prevent all toxins from harming a person.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. If you choose to continue this discussion further I certainly will respond to your points. Otherwise I am alright with letting it end here.


All the best to you, I am sure we will have more discussions on other threads.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 9:46am
Originally posted by TG12345

I was in the West Bank with 2 groups, one called Christian Peacemaker Teams and the other International Solidarity Movement. Our job was to document the Israeli army's and settler's abuses of Palestinians and when able to, step in and try to prevent them. It worked to an extent, sometimes we were able to get soldiers to stop harrassing people on the streets when they saw we were filming them. We would also share people's stories with others we know back in our home countries, so their voices would be heard.

I went to the West Bank because as a Christian I believe we are called to hunger and thirst for justice and to be peacemakers, like Jesus said. Soon after I became a believer, I learned about the situation of the Palestinian people and have been trying to follow the events there and speaking out where I live. I am also disgusted by the fact that there are Christians who believe the abuses that Israel is committing are somehow justified and in accordance with the Bible... they aren't. I think God placed it on my heart, laugh if you want and it may sound corny but I believe He did. It took many years before I was able to save up enough and go, and inshAllah one day I will go again.

I went to do what I could to help prevent or at least alleviate the violence. I believe Jesus when He said that what is done to victims of poverty and injustice is done to Him, and so I was honoured to do my small part in serving the Palestinian people.

Wherever I go I try to be a witness to my faith, so I wore the cross I normally wear around my neck and there were times when people saw it and would ask me about my faith and wanted to share their beliefs with me, and we'd have some good discussions. I didn't ever initiate the discussions as this was not a 'missions trip', but I did pray to God for oppurtunities to share my faith in Jesus and He provided. I didn't hand out tracts, try to start churches, preach on street corners, ask people to convert if that's what you were wondering. Neither one of the two groups I went with are into that kind of thing either.

My reason for going was to try to do what I could to stop the oppression of the Palestinian people and to serve Jesus and be a witness to Him.

Hope that helps explain.

I respect you for this. I feel you have sincere intentions and I pray that Allah (SWT) blesses and guides you in those efforts. I also want to visit that land one day insha Allah. It is disgusting how the Palestinians are being robbed from their lands while the worlds goes about it's business.

I'm happy to see you want to learn arabic so keep it up if you can. If you manage to read the Quran in arabic one day, you will be pleasantly surprised Insha Allah.

Thanks you for sharing.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by TG12345

I was in the West Bank with 2 groups, one called Christian Peacemaker Teams and the other International Solidarity Movement. Our job was to document the Israeli army's and settler's abuses of Palestinians and when able to, step in and try to prevent them. It worked to an extent, sometimes we were able to get soldiers to stop harrassing people on the streets when they saw we were filming them. We would also share people's stories with others we know back in our home countries, so their voices would be heard.

I went to the West Bank because as a Christian I believe we are called to hunger and thirst for justice and to be peacemakers, like Jesus said. Soon after I became a believer, I learned about the situation of the Palestinian people and have been trying to follow the events there and speaking out where I live. I am also disgusted by the fact that there are Christians who believe the abuses that Israel is committing are somehow justified and in accordance with the Bible... they aren't. I think God placed it on my heart, laugh if you want and it may sound corny but I believe He did. It took many years before I was able to save up enough and go, and inshAllah one day I will go again.

I went to do what I could to help prevent or at least alleviate the violence. I believe Jesus when He said that what is done to victims of poverty and injustice is done to Him, and so I was honoured to do my small part in serving the Palestinian people.

Wherever I go I try to be a witness to my faith, so I wore the cross I normally wear around my neck and there were times when people saw it and would ask me about my faith and wanted to share their beliefs with me, and we'd have some good discussions. I didn't ever initiate the discussions as this was not a 'missions trip', but I did pray to God for oppurtunities to share my faith in Jesus and He provided. I didn't hand out tracts, try to start churches, preach on street corners, ask people to convert if that's what you were wondering. Neither one of the two groups I went with are into that kind of thing either.

My reason for going was to try to do what I could to stop the oppression of the Palestinian people and to serve Jesus and be a witness to Him.

Hope that helps explain.


Originally posted by Rational

I respect you for this. I feel you have sincere intentions and I pray that Allah (SWT) blesses and guides you in those efforts. I also want to visit that land one day insha Allah. It is disgusting how the Palestinians are being robbed from their lands while the worlds goes about it's business.

I'm happy to see you want to learn arabic so keep it up if you can. If you manage to read the Quran in arabic one day, you will be pleasantly surprised Insha Allah.

Thanks you for sharing.


Assalamu alaikum, Rational.

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate how you are honest about your faith and at the same time are respectful to non-Muslims. I haven't sen you swear or curse anyone on here even once. I believe you believe Islam is the truth and you want others to come to it. I believe also that you are sincere and will also pray to Allah for you... although as you know I believe He is in some ways different than what Islam teaches.

Kind of busy now with other stuff to start studying Arabic again, but it is definitely on my 'to do list'. It would be amazing to read the Quran in Arabic. It is a beautiful language, I love not only the sound of it but it also looks so elegant in its writing. Did you know that Arabs were among the first Christians mentioned in the Book of Acts?

Acts 2:5-12

Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12


To clarify something very important, I haven't done much, I was in Israel and Palestine only for 6 weeks, there are people I met in CPT who have spent years there. One day InshAllah I will go back and do more. There have also been people like Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall who have paid for the work they did with their lives. Rachel was crushed with a bulldozer while defending Palestinian homes, Tom was shot in the head while helping Palestinian kids escape from IDF fire. If you haven't heard their names, I would encourage you to go on google and find them.

The people really worthy of respect are those Palestinians and Israelis we met who work every day for a just peace. They have suffered for this in both beatings, arrests, jail time, and also deaths... I am only aware of Palestinians who were killed by the IDF and settlers. I am  unaware of Israelis who were killed defending Palestinians... not that shootings and permanent and life altering brain injuries from plastic bullets that some Israeli activists have suffered aren't terrible also. I met Palestinian Muslims and Christians who are standing up for their rights and the rights of their people and confronting the injustices and taking great risks while refusing to use violence. I met Israeli Jews who have had their families and friends and cast them out for standing up for the Palestinians.


Compared to their work and sacrifices, my 6 weeks is a pathetic joke. We did some good and praise be to God for that, but I'm in no way a 'hero' or worthy of any more respect than anyone else.


I am frustrated by how most of the world ignores the injustices the Palestinians suffer. Since coming back, I have done a presentation in church and at some schools (I am a substitute teacher) and have talked to my friends and have gone to demos and tried to raise awareness...but there is so much apathy and ignorance.

The situation in Palestine is terrible, though it is true also there are other human rights crises that claim even more lives and are ignored. In Arizona, on the US-Mexico border, hundreds of Mexicans and Central Americans die a horrific death trying to cross the desert to get jobs so they can send money back home to support their loved ones. They cross illegally because they are not allowed to enter legally, and to a huge extent the terrible poverty they are trying to escape are caused by economic trade policies shaped by my country (Canada) and the US. People die slow and agonizing deaths from dehydration and hunger, others are robbed and killed by gangs who take advantage of them. Tens of thousands are abused by the US Border Patrol as they are deported to Mexico.

I was able to spend 6 weeks one summer volunteering with a group called No More Deaths that provides water to migrants in the desert. We were there in July and August, when the temperatures would shoot up to forty degrees Celsius. I met people who have been on the brink of death, people whose whole families were destroyed after some bigwigs decided to cut down the price of corn in Mexico by 70%. I was able to visit a refugee camp for deported people, I have heard stories of Border Police kicking people they picked up and forcing children and elderly people to kneel on hot asphalt for half an hour with their hands behind their backs. It was humbling to hear their stories, and made me angry also because as with the case of Palestine, no one cares or even knows.

One amazing story was when 2 Mexican men came to our camp. One was an evangelical pastor and the other a 16 year old Catholic boy. They were traveling to the US to work and were being guided by human smugglers. At one point in the journey their 'coyote' told the group they will have to carry marijuana. If the migrants refused they would be abandoned in the desert... a fate far worse than a bullet in the head. In spite of this, the two of them decided they would not do what they know is wrong, and were abandoned. They wandered for a few days, and when they found our camp they were in an extremely bad state. I think it is possible they would have died had they been out any longer. We managed to feed them and provide them with clothes... the group I was with is very much disliked by the police and many in the US who see the migrants as scum and criminals... but it is not against the law to feed people and offer them humanitarian aid, although we could not transport them. They stayed with us for a while. During this time, the pastor got out his guitar and played me some Praise and Worship songs in Spanish. It was very beautiful. Most of my fellow activists were not Christian (although I highly respect and like them), it was awesome to have a fellow believer for a few days. The two men then left, we got word a few weeks later that they reached their destinations and found work.

If you are interested in checking out the blogs I maintained in Palestine and Arizona and read more about the amazing people I met and their struggle for justice, check out:

www.livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.com

www.northoftheborder-alnortedelafrontera.blogspot.com


Another terrible example of injustice is the terrible poverty and racism suffered in Canada by our First Nations peoples... suffering caused to a huge part by actions of imperialist 'christians' and the horrific legacy of residential schools... where Native kids were placed in by people who abused them in the name of Jesus and punished them for speaking their language. Many families were devastated, and a whole generation was traumatized. Native peoples in our country have the highest rates of alcoholism, crime, poverty and incarceration. There is a lot to do here. As an educator and a volunteer at a drop-in I have the privilege of working with kids from the inner city, many of them native and many of them immigrants who come from countries at war like Somalia. The challenges many of the kids face are almost impossible for many to comprehend. But one thing that God has shown me is His love for them... sometimes the work can be frustrating, especially when violence or bad behaviour happens... and it is easy to get angry or overwhelmed (and I do at times)... but then He reminds me we are all His creation and that He is in them. My wife and I are blessed to go to a church that is located in one of the most impoverished and crime ridden parts of our city, and is choosing to follow Jesus and serve and seek God with and worship Him along with our brothers and sisters in the street, as well as supports opposing injustice. Our pastor has received death threats from gangs for the work he does and was once beaten up by several people for jumping on a person who they were kicking who was on the pavement... their blows fell on him instead of their original victim. Shockingly, the police stood by and did nothing. To them, the guy getting beaten up was 'just another drunk Indian'.

Sorry for all the stories, and I realize I just probably derailed this thread. Oh well, I'm the one who started it. Smile

As a Christian, I believe that God cares about justice in our world, and He hates it when innocent people are taken advantage of, abused and oppressed. This is as true in the West Bank as it is on the US-Mexico as it is in my city as it is in Syria and El Salvador and Chechnya and Egypt.

I love Him for many reasons. One of them is that He sides with the weak and despised and abused rather than with the rich and powerful.


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 27 January 2013 at 4:27am
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 In response, I would challenge you to prove Muhammad was right in a very fascinating thing that he said.

Muhammad, whom you believe is a prophet from God, stated that if a person eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by magic or poisons/toxins for that day.

This is documented in the following hadiths.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


Sahih Muslim

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening.  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080 - #023 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080#5080 - #5080 )

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=dates+poison&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html


Muhammad not only said that 7 dates first thing in  the morning will make sure the person who eats them will not be harmed by poison/toxin or magic that day, but he also made it clear that no poison can harm a person who does this, and that the dates contain healing for all kinds of magic or toxins.


If you believe his words are to be trusted, I would encourage you to test it out. Invite someone from your mosque over for supper or lunch. Make sure they have eaten 7 ajwa dates that morning. Make sure they are from Medina. It's important.

Then have them pet a rattlesnake or black mamba (seems to be your fave kind of serpent), or play with a black widow. Make sure they get bitten.

If Muhammad was right, then the toxins will not harm that person. If they get sick and/or die, I guess that will have proven he was wrong. Either that, or the person you just killed and/or severely harmed wasn't a "real Muslim". Try it on someone else. Just do it quickly, before the police find out and put you in jail for murder, because... in all likelihood... the person will either get very sick or die.


* I hope you do not actually try this challenge, because I don't want to hear of you doing life in a penitentiary or institution. Regardless of what Muhammad stated, dates will not protect you or anyone else from all toxins.


 
 
 To TG12345

 Well we must understand Hadith with the understandings of companions of Prophet Muhammad.Not a single companion understood it like if some one eats Ajwa and then eat poison,it will not effect.Otherwise they would be the first ones to use this Hadith against non-muslims.

 Prophet Muhammad said:

 Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. [Narrated byal-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim,109]

 So clearly Eating poison is killing yourself and it is prohibited, the hadith in discussion means if someone eat dates in the morning with strong certainty and full submission, then if some scorpion or any other poisoning animal bite him by any chance then Insha'Allah no poison will effect him but he should not think that dates will save him but it is Allah who saves.

 Conclusion:

 1- You are not allowed to take poison or anything may harm your body.

 2- 'Ajwa dates is one of the means that prevent being poisioned, With The Permission of Allah.

 3- Being protected against poison by eating these dates is conditional to the will of Allah; if Allah will its effect happen and if He does not Will so then posien will take effect.



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 2:52pm
Assalamu Alaikum, Mansoor_Ali

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

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 In response, I would challenge you to prove Muhammad was right in a very fascinating thing that he said.

Muhammad, whom you believe is a prophet from God, stated that if a person eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by magic or poisons/toxins for that day.

This is documented in the following hadiths.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


Sahih Muslim

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening.  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080 - #023 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080#5080 - #5080 )

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=dates+poison&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html


Muhammad not only said that 7 dates first thing in  the morning will make sure the person who eats them will not be harmed by poison/toxin or magic that day, but he also made it clear that no poison can harm a person who does this, and that the dates contain healing for all kinds of magic or toxins.


If you believe his words are to be trusted, I would encourage you to test it out. Invite someone from your mosque over for supper or lunch. Make sure they have eaten 7 ajwa dates that morning. Make sure they are from Medina. It's important.

Then have them pet a rattlesnake or black mamba (seems to be your fave kind of serpent), or play with a black widow. Make sure they get bitten.

If Muhammad was right, then the toxins will not harm that person. If they get sick and/or die, I guess that will have proven he was wrong. Either that, or the person you just killed and/or severely harmed wasn't a "real Muslim". Try it on someone else. Just do it quickly, before the police find out and put you in jail for murder, because... in all likelihood... the person will either get very sick or die.


* I hope you do not actually try this challenge, because I don't want to hear of you doing life in a penitentiary or institution. Regardless of what Muhammad stated, dates will not protect you or anyone else from all toxins.


 
 
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

To TG12345

 Well we must understand Hadith with the understandings of companions of Prophet Muhammad.Not a single companion understood it like if some one eats Ajwa and then eat poison,it will not effect.Otherwise they would be the first ones to use this Hadith against non-muslims.

How they interpreted or did not interpret his words is not the issue, I think. Some Muslims like the author of Islam QA interprets the Quran and hadiths in such a way that for him it is acceptable to physically force non-Muslims who are not People of the Book to accept Islam. Most Muslims I know disagree with his interpretation although unlike him, they are not scholars.

Muhammad said very clearly that those who eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning first thing will not be harmed by toxins or magic. He went as far as to claim that no toxin or magic can harm them.


Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Prophet Muhammad said:

 Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. [Narrated byal-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim,109]

 So clearly Eating poison is killing yourself and it is prohibited,

The hadith says that the person who takes poisons and kills himself will be sipping it in hell forever. If Muhammad's words are true, then the 7 dates would protect a person from toxins. Toxin could only kill a person who ate them before ingesting it, if the hadith was wrong.

There is probably a much safer way to test this out. Eat 7 dates in the morning as Muhammad said, and then allow a bee to sting you. The toxin that is in the bee is relatively harmless and unless you have a bee allergy, you will not die or even be badly hurt.

As you know, bees have toxin. If Muhammad was correct, the toxin should have no effect. There should be no swelling of any kind, which normally happens after a bee sting because this is caused by the low level of toxin that is from the stinger.


Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

the hadith in discussion means if someone eat dates in the morning with strong certainty and full submission, then if some scorpion or any other poisoning animal bite him by any chance then Insha'Allah no poison will effect him but he should not think that dates will save him but it is Allah who saves.

If you truly believe this, eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning with strong certainty and full submission, and then go collect some honey. Make sure you address appropriately so you don't get stung too much or get harmed. Chances are that, like every beekeeper, you will be stung at least once.

If and when you do get stung, examine your arm or whatever part of the body that got stung. If there is absolutely no swelling or pain, it means Muhammad was right and that the toxin has had no effect. If there is swelling, it means that the toxin has affected your body and he was wrong.


 Conclusion:

 

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

1- You are not allowed to take poison or anything may harm your body.

Learn how to work as a beekeer and gather some honey for people at your mosque. It would be a kind and selfless act, and for the most part harmless (beekeepers are stung, but rarely ever harmed) not intentionally inviting harm on yourself. Muhammad said honey is a good thing, and I agree with him on that.


Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

2- 'Ajwa dates is one of the means that prevent being poisioned, With The Permission of Allah.

It is, and according to what Muhammad said, eating 7 of them in the morning will prevent any toxin or magic from harming the person.

 [QUOTE=Mansoor_ali] 3- Being protected against poison by eating these dates is conditional to the will of Allah; if Allah will its effect happen and if He does not Will so then posien will take effect.



I agree with you on that too. If it is God's will, the person will not be harmed and Muhammad's words will be proven right. If it is not, then there will be an effect and we will know that his statement that eating 7 ajwa dates will cause toxins to have no effect on a person to be incorrect.




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