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Question for Muslims about Adam

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Printed Date: 23 April 2014 at 6:55pm


Topic: Question for Muslims about Adam
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: Question for Muslims about Adam
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 5:02pm
Salaam Alaikum. Sorry for all these questions, but I have another one. I have heard many Muslims say that Adam was a prophet from God, in fact the very first prophet. I have read the story of Adam from an Islamic perspective from these sites, and heard it in various discussions with Muslims. These sites and all Muslims I know refer to him as a prophet.

http://islam.worldofislam.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=330:adam-pbuh

http://www.itsislam.net/articles/prophet_adam.asp

The Biblical and Quranic story of Adam has many similarities and a few differences. We all agree he and Eve sinned against God and we all agree that in spite of this, He did not stop providing for them and loving them, though He did cast them out of the Garden.

The following sites showed various passages in the Quran explaining the story of Adam, but I haven't seen one passage that says he was a prophet of God. My knowledge of the Quran is not very good so there is a very huge likelihood that it does say he was a prophet and I have not found or overlooked the verse that does.

Could you please show me ayahs or even authentic hadith that say he was prophet from God? Thanks in advance. Salaam.



Replies:
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:58pm
If you refer to one of my previous responses regarding the difference between prophets (Nabi) and messengers (Rasu'l) according to the Qur'an, it should become evident that a Rasu'l is sent to a particular people, whereas a Nabi is simply a person who receives divine guidance through any form of revelation. Keeping this and the fact that Adam was the first man, it should be evident that he was a prophet of God and not a messenger.

My opinion is also supported by some of the narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh). In the more accepted compilations of the narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) there is a narrative in "Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal", in which Abu Hurairah (ra) asked the Prophet about Adam (pbuh). The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have told Abu Hurairah (ra) that Adam (pbuh) was the first among the prophets of God.


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 12:07am
Alaikum Salaam.

In the Qur'an I don't think Adam as mentioned as a Prophet per se. The Adam's prophethood is from hadith. But the Qur'an states he was a Khalifah. Nor it mentioned him as the first human. I inclined to believe that he was the first conscious human. The "Prophethood" title would be more fitting if there were humans already on this earth when his consciousness begins. His consciousness was the turning point that make us here today. Make sense?


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 4:32am
Originally posted by nothing

Alaikum Salaam.

In the Qur'an I don't think Adam as mentioned as a Prophet per se. The Adam's prophethood is from hadith. But the Qur'an states he was a Khalifah. Nor it mentioned him as the first human. I inclined to believe that he was the first conscious human. The "Prophethood" title would be more fitting if there were humans already on this earth when his consciousness begins. His consciousness was the turning point that make us here today. Make sense?

Peace be upon you also. Thanks for this, in the Bible he is also not listed as a prophet but as the first person.

What do you mean by "his consciousness begins. His consciousness was the turning point that make us here today."?

Do you know why then Adam is referred to as a prophet by most Muslims? Which hadith say that?


Posted By: docbro
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by TG12345


The Biblical and Quranic story of Adam has many similarities and a few differences.


Quran didn't say God was searching for Adam !
http://quran-m.com/firas/en1/index.php/embracing-islam/255-the-beginning-of-creation-in-the-bible-and-in-the-holy-quran.html - http://quran-m.com/firas/en1/index.php/embracing-islam/255-the-beginning-of-creation-in-the-bible-and-in-the-holy-quran.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/adam_eve_downfall.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/adam_eve_downfall.htm


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 7:55pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum. Sorry for all these questions, but I have another one. I have heard many Muslims say that Adam was a prophet from God, in fact the very first prophet. I have read the story of Adam from an Islamic perspective from these sites, and heard it in various discussions with Muslims. These sites and all Muslims I know refer to him as a prophet.

http://islam.worldofislam.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=330:adam-pbuh

http://www.itsislam.net/articles/prophet_adam.asp

The Biblical and Quranic story of Adam has many similarities and a few differences. We all agree he and Eve sinned against God and we all agree that in spite of this, He did not stop providing for them and loving them, though He did cast them out of the Garden.

The following sites showed various passages in the Quran explaining the story of Adam, but I haven't seen one passage that says he was a prophet of God. My knowledge of the Quran is not very good so there is a very huge likelihood that it does say he was a prophet and I have not found or overlooked the verse that does.

Could you please show me ayahs or even authentic hadith that say he was prophet from God? Thanks in advance. Salaam.


Walaikum as-salaam. 

The Quran does not literally say "Adam was a prophet".  However, it does say that Adam (pbuh) was given "guidance" after the fall. 

"But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.  He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.  "But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment."" (20:122-124)

Allah (swt) sent His guidance through his prophets.  Obviously, with the fall of Adam and Eve, mankind began to spread on the earth.  As such, guidance would have been needed.   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 5:11am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum. Sorry for all these questions, but I have another one. I have heard many Muslims say that Adam was a prophet from God, in fact the very first prophet. I have read the story of Adam from an Islamic perspective from these sites, and heard it in various discussions with Muslims. These sites and all Muslims I know refer to him as a prophet.

http://islam.worldofislam.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=330:adam-pbuh

http://www.itsislam.net/articles/prophet_adam.asp

The Biblical and Quranic story of Adam has many similarities and a few differences. We all agree he and Eve sinned against God and we all agree that in spite of this, He did not stop providing for them and loving them, though He did cast them out of the Garden.

The following sites showed various passages in the Quran explaining the story of Adam, but I haven't seen one passage that says he was a prophet of God. My knowledge of the Quran is not very good so there is a very huge likelihood that it does say he was a prophet and I have not found or overlooked the verse that does.

Could you please show me ayahs or even authentic hadith that say he was prophet from God? Thanks in advance. Salaam.


Walaikum as-salaam. 

The Quran does not literally say "Adam was a prophet".  However, it does say that Adam (pbuh) was given "guidance" after the fall. 

"But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.  He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.  "But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment."" (20:122-124)

Allah (swt) sent His guidance through his prophets.  Obviously, with the fall of Adam and Eve, mankind began to spread on the earth.  As such, guidance would have been needed.   


Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace.

Did God according to Islam send guidance to people who were not prophets, or only to prophets? I am just curious about this.

I am assuming that you believe Adam was a prophet, correct?

Shukran.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 20 December 2012 at 6:04pm
Salaam Alaikum. I have some more questions about the prophethood of Adam in Islam.

Are there hadith that say Adam was a prophet of God? Do we know when he prophesied, and who he prophesied to? Do we know what we taught?

Thanks so much! Smile




Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 11:06am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace.

Did God according to Islam send guidance to people who were not prophets, or only to prophets? I am just curious about this.

I am assuming that you believe Adam was a prophet, correct?


Walaikum as-salaam.  Yes, I believe that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  Muslims have to believe in all of God's prophets.

God sends guidance to mankind through his prophets and messengers.  That is why we have scripture.  Of course, all of us can pray for guidance as well and we may receive it, but not like the prophets did.  The prophets were the direct recipients of God's word.  You and I cannot claim to be prophets because we have not received God's word directly. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Are there hadith that say Adam was a prophet of God? Do we know when he prophesied, and who he prophesied to? Do we know what we taught?


A prophet does not just make prophecies.  He can also convey to his people what God has willed.  We do not have anything in the Quran or Hadiths about Adam's prophecies, although the Quran does say that Allah (swt) made a covenant with all the prophets concerning the coming of Muhammad (pbuh):

"Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."" (3:81)

So, every prophet would have told his nation about the coming of Muhammad (pbuh). 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace.

Did God according to Islam send guidance to people who were not prophets, or only to prophets? I am just curious about this.

I am assuming that you believe Adam was a prophet, correct?


Originally posted by islamispeace

Walaikum as-salaam.  Yes, I believe that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  Muslims have to believe in all of God's prophets.

On what basis do you believe he was a prophet?

Originally posted by islamispeace

God sends guidance to mankind through his prophets and messengers.  That is why we have scripture.  Of course, all of us can pray for guidance as well and we may receive it, but not like the prophets did.  The prophets were the direct recipients of God's word.  You and I cannot claim to be prophets because we have not received God's word directly. 

Thank you for explaining.

Originally posted by TG12345

Are there hadith that say Adam was a prophet of God? Do we know when he prophesied, and who he prophesied to? Do we know what we taught?


Originally posted by islamispeace

A prophet does not just make prophecies.  He can also convey to his people what God has willed.  We do not have anything in the Quran or Hadiths about Adam's prophecies, although the Quran does say that Allah (swt) made a covenant with all the prophets concerning the coming of Muhammad (pbuh):

"Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."" (3:81)

So, every prophet would have told his nation about the coming of Muhammad (pbuh). 

Salaam Alaikum. Thanks for sharing 3:81, but I don't see how it answers the question. It does not say Adam was a prophet, or what he conveyed to the people of his time, or who he conveyed it to.

Again, are there verses in the Quran or authentic hadith that say Adam was a prophet, and if so, what did he teach or prophecy and/or who he taught or prophesied to?

Thanks.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 1:11pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

On what basis do you believe he was a prophet?


The reasons I have given so far.

God spoke directly to Adam (pbuh) and gave him guidance.  Would that not make him a prophet?  The Quran also says:

"Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-" (3:33)

This is more evidence that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum. Thanks for sharing 3:81, but I don't see how it answers the question. It does not say Adam was a prophet, or what he conveyed to the people of his time, or who he conveyed it to.

Again, are there verses in the Quran or authentic hadith that say Adam was a prophet, and if so, what did he teach or prophecy and/or who he taught or prophesied to?


I already explained this.  The Quran does not literally say "Adam was a prophet".  It does say that Adam (pbuh) received God's guidance and was chosen by Him.  That makes him a prophet. 

There is also a hadith which speaks about the Day of Judgment, when some people will approach the prophets to speak on their behalf to God.  This hadith offers a clue that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, but not a messenger:

"Narrated Abu Huraira: We were in the company of the Prophet at a banquet and a cooked (mutton) forearm was set before him, and he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said, "I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know how Allah will gather all the first and the last (people) in one level place where an observer will be able to see (all) of them and they will be able to hear the announcer, and the sun will come near to them. Some People will say: Don't you see, in what condition you are and the state to which you have reached? Why don't you look for a person who can intercede for you with your Lord? Some people will say: Appeal to your father, Adam.' They will go to him and say: 'O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what (miserable) state we are, and to what condition we have reached?' On that Adam will reply, 'My Lord is so angry as He has never been before and will never be in the future; (besides), He forbade me (to eat from) the tree, but I disobeyed (Him), (I am worried about) myself! Myself! Go to somebody else; go to Noah.' They will go to Noah and say; 'O Noah! You are the first amongst the messengers of Allah to the people of the earth, and Allah named you a thankful slave. Don't you see in what a (miserable) state we are and to what condition we have reached? Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Noah will reply: 'Today my Lord has become so angry as he had never been before and will never be in the future Myself! Myself! Go to the Prophet (Muhammad). The people will come to me, and I will prostrate myself underneath Allah's Throne. Then I will be addressed: 'O Muhammad! Raise your head; intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything). for you will be given."  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556 - #55 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556#556 - #556 )

Notice that this hadith states that Noah (pbuh) was the first "messenger".  A messenger (rasul) is also a prophet (nabi) but a prophet is not necessarily a messenger.  Since Noah (pbuh) was a messenger, he was also a prophet, but the hadith specifically refers to him as the first messenger, not the first prophet.  This means that Adam (pbuh) was the first prophet. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

On what basis do you believe he was a prophet?


The reasons I have given so far.

God spoke directly to Adam (pbuh) and gave him guidance.  Would that not make him a prophet?  The Quran also says:

"Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-" (3:33)

This is more evidence that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum. Thanks for sharing 3:81, but I don't see how it answers the question. It does not say Adam was a prophet, or what he conveyed to the people of his time, or who he conveyed it to.

Again, are there verses in the Quran or authentic hadith that say Adam was a prophet, and if so, what did he teach or prophecy and/or who he taught or prophesied to?


I already explained this.  The Quran does not literally say "Adam was a prophet".  It does say that Adam (pbuh) received God's guidance and was chosen by Him.  That makes him a prophet. 

There is also a hadith which speaks about the Day of Judgment, when some people will approach the prophets to speak on their behalf to God.  This hadith offers a clue that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, but not a messenger:

"Narrated Abu Huraira: We were in the company of the Prophet at a banquet and a cooked (mutton) forearm was set before him, and he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said, "I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know how Allah will gather all the first and the last (people) in one level place where an observer will be able to see (all) of them and they will be able to hear the announcer, and the sun will come near to them. Some People will say: Don't you see, in what condition you are and the state to which you have reached? Why don't you look for a person who can intercede for you with your Lord? Some people will say: Appeal to your father, Adam.' They will go to him and say: 'O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what (miserable) state we are, and to what condition we have reached?' On that Adam will reply, 'My Lord is so angry as He has never been before and will never be in the future; (besides), He forbade me (to eat from) the tree, but I disobeyed (Him), (I am worried about) myself! Myself! Go to somebody else; go to Noah.' They will go to Noah and say; 'O Noah! You are the first amongst the messengers of Allah to the people of the earth, and Allah named you a thankful slave. Don't you see in what a (miserable) state we are and to what condition we have reached? Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Noah will reply: 'Today my Lord has become so angry as he had never been before and will never be in the future Myself! Myself! Go to the Prophet (Muhammad). The people will come to me, and I will prostrate myself underneath Allah's Throne. Then I will be addressed: 'O Muhammad! Raise your head; intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything). for you will be given."  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556 - #55 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556#556 - #556 )

Notice that this hadith states that Noah (pbuh) was the first "messenger".  A messenger (rasul) is also a prophet (nabi) but a prophet is not necessarily a messenger.  Since Noah (pbuh) was a messenger, he was also a prophet, but the hadith specifically refers to him as the first messenger, not the first prophet.  This means that Adam (pbuh) was the first prophet. 


Assalamu Alaikum, Islamispeace.

Thank you for answering my question. 3:33 I think does demonstrate that Adam was a prophet.

In his tafsir, Ibn Jalalayn writes he was a prophet.

Lo! God preferred, He has chosen, Adam and Noah and the House of Abraham and the House of ‘Imrān, meaning [He preferred] their selves [sc. Abraham and ‘Imrān], above the worlds, by making prophethood reside in [them and] their progeny:
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=33&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

The hadith you cited does not say Adam was a prophet, only that people appealed to him and that he was the father of all people. I think though that 3:33, especially with the commentary by Ibn Jalalayn, helps clarify that issue.

Thanks for showing it to me.

Take care.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 9:28pm
The hadith states that Noah (pbuh) was the first messenger (rasul), not the first prophet (nabi).  That implies that Adam (pbuh), who was not a rasul, was a nabi.




-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 12:42am
Originally posted by TG12345


 Did God according to Islam send guidance to people who were not prophets, or only to prophets? I am just curious about this.I am assuming that you believe Adam was a prophet, correct?Shukran.


God guides everyone.

The prophets (nabi) and messengers (rasul) are chosen by God for a special mission - that is to 'convey' the message of guidance to their people. However the individual people guided by God are not obliged to 'convey' their inspiration to anyone.
This is the basic difference between the guidance received sent to messengers and prophets, and ordinary people.
For this reason, the responsibility of accepting the guidance from prophets and messengers does not lie on them, rather on the people who receive it.
Allah says in the Quran that Muhammad (saw) is not responsible to make people believe - his only responsibility is to 'convey' the message.
Allah also says He is the One who turns the hearts to guidance. Thus after the message has been conveyed by the prophets and messengers Allah shows the light in the individual hearts so they are guided to it.

On a side note, the tafsir book you mentioned is called 'Tafsir al Jalalayn'. It can be tranlated as Tafsir of Two Jalals, because it was compiled in its final form by two people of the same name - 'Jalal ad Din' namely; Jalal ad Din al Mahalli and Jalal ad Din as Suyuti.


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

The hadith states that Noah (pbuh) was the first messenger (rasul), not the first prophet (nabi).  That implies that Adam (pbuh), who was not a rasul, was a nabi.




How does it imply that Adam was the first prophet? The word "prophet" is used only twice, both times in reference to Muhammad.

The people's speech to Adam includes nothing of him being a prophet, not even teaching anything for that matter.

' They will go to him and say: 'O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what (miserable) state we are, and to what condition we have reached?'


Not trying to be rude, but do you see anything here about him being a prophet? They only interceded to him because he was created by God first and that allegedly He made angels prostrate towards him.


"Narrated Abu Huraira: We were in the company of the Prophet at a banquet and a cooked (mutton) forearm was set before him, and he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said, "I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know how Allah will gather all the first and the last (people) in one level place where an observer will be able to see (all) of them and they will be able to hear the announcer, and the sun will come near to them. Some People will say: Don't you see, in what condition you are and the state to which you have reached? Why don't you look for a person who can intercede for you with your Lord? Some people will say: Appeal to your father, Adam.' They will go to him and say: 'O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what (miserable) state we are, and to what condition we have reached?' On that Adam will reply, 'My Lord is so angry as He has never been before and will never be in the future; (besides), He forbade me (to eat from) the tree, but I disobeyed (Him), (I am worried about) myself! Myself! Go to somebody else; go to Noah.' They will go to Noah and say; 'O Noah! You are the first amongst the messengers of Allah to the people of the earth, and Allah named you a thankful slave. Don't you see in what a (miserable) state we are and to what condition we have reached? Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Noah will reply: 'Today my Lord has become so angry as he had never been before and will never be in the future Myself! Myself! Go to the Prophet (Muhammad). The people will come to me, and I will prostrate myself underneath Allah's Throne. Then I will be addressed: 'O Muhammad! Raise your head; intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything). for you will be given."  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556 - #55 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556#556 - #556 )


So far, there is nothing in the Quran or hadith that you have shown me anyways, that states Adam was a prophet, or even suggests that to be the case.


On what basis do you believe he was?


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by TG12345


 Did God according to Islam send guidance to people who were not prophets, or only to prophets? I am just curious about this.I am assuming that you believe Adam was a prophet, correct?Shukran.


God guides everyone.

The prophets (nabi) and messengers (rasul) are chosen by God for a special mission - that is to 'convey' the message of guidance to their people. However the individual people guided by God are not obliged to 'convey' their inspiration to anyone.
This is the basic difference between the guidance received sent to messengers and prophets, and ordinary people.
For this reason, the responsibility of accepting the guidance from prophets and messengers does not lie on them, rather on the people who receive it.
Allah says in the Quran that Muhammad (saw) is not responsible to make people believe - his only responsibility is to 'convey' the message.
Allah also says He is the One who turns the hearts to guidance. Thus after the message has been conveyed by the prophets and messengers Allah shows the light in the individual hearts so they are guided to it.

On a side note, the tafsir book you mentioned is called 'Tafsir al Jalalayn'. It can be tranlated as Tafsir of Two Jalals, because it was compiled in its final form by two people of the same name - 'Jalal ad Din' namely; Jalal ad Din al Mahalli and Jalal ad Din as Suyuti.

Salaam Alaikum, Nausheen. Thank you for sharing, and I agree with you that the responsibility for accepting the Truth lies not on the person spreading it but on those listening. In the Bible, Jesus told Christians to spread the Good News, that is our job. If people accept, great. If not, we tried and it will be between them and God.

Thank you for the correction regarding the tafsir Ibn Jalalayn.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 December 2012 at 7:26pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by islamispeace

The hadith states that Noah (pbuh) was the first messenger (rasul), not the first prophet (nabi).  That implies that Adam (pbuh), who was not a rasul, was a nabi.




How does it imply that Adam was the first prophet? The word "prophet" is used only twice, both times in reference to Muhammad.

The people's speech to Adam includes nothing of him being a prophet, not even teaching anything for that matter.

' They will go to him and say: 'O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what (miserable) state we are, and to what condition we have reached?'


Not trying to be rude, but do you see anything here about him being a prophet? They only interceded to him because he was created by God first and that allegedly He made angels prostrate towards him.


"Narrated Abu Huraira: We were in the company of the Prophet at a banquet and a cooked (mutton) forearm was set before him, and he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said, "I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know how Allah will gather all the first and the last (people) in one level place where an observer will be able to see (all) of them and they will be able to hear the announcer, and the sun will come near to them. Some People will say: Don't you see, in what condition you are and the state to which you have reached? Why don't you look for a person who can intercede for you with your Lord? Some people will say: Appeal to your father, Adam.' They will go to him and say: 'O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what (miserable) state we are, and to what condition we have reached?' On that Adam will reply, 'My Lord is so angry as He has never been before and will never be in the future; (besides), He forbade me (to eat from) the tree, but I disobeyed (Him), (I am worried about) myself! Myself! Go to somebody else; go to Noah.' They will go to Noah and say; 'O Noah! You are the first amongst the messengers of Allah to the people of the earth, and Allah named you a thankful slave. Don't you see in what a (miserable) state we are and to what condition we have reached? Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Noah will reply: 'Today my Lord has become so angry as he had never been before and will never be in the future Myself! Myself! Go to the Prophet (Muhammad). The people will come to me, and I will prostrate myself underneath Allah's Throne. Then I will be addressed: 'O Muhammad! Raise your head; intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything). for you will be given."  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556 - #55 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556#556 - #556 )


So far, there is nothing in the Quran or hadith that you have shown me anyways, that states Adam was a prophet, or even suggests that to be the case.


On what basis do you believe he was?


First of all, I have already established from the Quran that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  You already admitted as such.  Second, I already explained why the hadith implies that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  It refers to Noah (pbuh) as the "first messenger" (rasul).  A rasul is also a nabi (prophet), but a nabi is not necessarily a rasul.  The hadith does not refer to Noah (pbuh) as the first "prophet", but as the first "messenger".  That implies that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, and hence, the first prophet.  If the hadith had said that Noah (pbuh) was the first "prophet", then it would not make sense to refer to Adam as the first prophet, but that is not what it says.  Therefore, Adam (pbuh) was the first prophet but Noah (pbuh) was the first messenger. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 1:55am
Assalam alaikom warahmato Allahi wabaraqatoh

This is an addition to what has already been presented by other muslims in this thread.

First we need to agree on the definition of the the term “Prophet”, because we’ll end up going in circles otherwise. This wiki page gives a good definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_in_Islam

Based on this definition and the events and circumstances that we know with regards to Adam (pbuh), he is a prophet.
 
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The learned are heirs of the prophets, and the prophets do not leave any inheritance in the form of (monetary wealth), but they do leave knowledge as their legacy. A person who acquires knowledge, acquires his full share (of this legacy)."
--------- Riyadh-us-Salaheen, Number 1388

** To muslim brothers and sisters, please make a post if the above hadith is weak (no considered authentic by most)

Adam being the first man, having direct communication with Allah (azza wa jall) and leaving a wealth of lessons for us to learn from his experiences, I believe he is a prophet.

During Isra and Mi'raj, Mohammad (pbuh) and Gabriel (as) met with Adam (pbuh) in the first heaven. Then they met other prophets in the following heavens. The fact that Adam (pbuh) was in the first heaven followed by other prophets, clearly demonstrates his status amongst Allah's prophets.

His status merits him to be a prophet beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 6:20am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by islamispeace

The hadith states that Noah (pbuh) was the first messenger (rasul), not the first prophet (nabi).  That implies that Adam (pbuh), who was not a rasul, was a nabi.




How does it imply that Adam was the first prophet? The word "prophet" is used only twice, both times in reference to Muhammad.

The people's speech to Adam includes nothing of him being a prophet, not even teaching anything for that matter.

' They will go to him and say: 'O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what (miserable) state we are, and to what condition we have reached?'


Not trying to be rude, but do you see anything here about him being a prophet? They only interceded to him because he was created by God first and that allegedly He made angels prostrate towards him.


"Narrated Abu Huraira: We were in the company of the Prophet at a banquet and a cooked (mutton) forearm was set before him, and he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said, "I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know how Allah will gather all the first and the last (people) in one level place where an observer will be able to see (all) of them and they will be able to hear the announcer, and the sun will come near to them. Some People will say: Don't you see, in what condition you are and the state to which you have reached? Why don't you look for a person who can intercede for you with your Lord? Some people will say: Appeal to your father, Adam.' They will go to him and say: 'O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what (miserable) state we are, and to what condition we have reached?' On that Adam will reply, 'My Lord is so angry as He has never been before and will never be in the future; (besides), He forbade me (to eat from) the tree, but I disobeyed (Him), (I am worried about) myself! Myself! Go to somebody else; go to Noah.' They will go to Noah and say; 'O Noah! You are the first amongst the messengers of Allah to the people of the earth, and Allah named you a thankful slave. Don't you see in what a (miserable) state we are and to what condition we have reached? Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Noah will reply: 'Today my Lord has become so angry as he had never been before and will never be in the future Myself! Myself! Go to the Prophet (Muhammad). The people will come to me, and I will prostrate myself underneath Allah's Throne. Then I will be addressed: 'O Muhammad! Raise your head; intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything). for you will be given."  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556 - #55 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=556#556 - #556 )


So far, there is nothing in the Quran or hadith that you have shown me anyways, that states Adam was a prophet, or even suggests that to be the case.


On what basis do you believe he was?


First of all, I have already established from the Quran that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  You already admitted as such.  Second, I already explained why the hadith implies that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  It refers to Noah (pbuh) as the "first messenger" (rasul).  A rasul is also a nabi (prophet), but a nabi is not necessarily a rasul.  The hadith does not refer to Noah (pbuh) as the first "prophet", but as the first "messenger".  That implies that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, and hence, the first prophet.  If the hadith had said that Noah (pbuh) was the first "prophet", then it would not make sense to refer to Adam as the first prophet, but that is not what it says.  Therefore, Adam (pbuh) was the first prophet but Noah (pbuh) was the first messenger. 

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace.

I admitted that 3:33 means Adam is a prophet because I read Ibn Jalalayn's commentary of it:

Lo! God preferred, He has chosen, Adam and Noah and the House of Abraham and the House of ‘Imrān, meaning [He preferred] their selves [sc. Abraham and ‘Imrān], above the worlds, by making prophethood reside in [them and] their progeny:

Without the commentary, the Quran does not say or imply Adam is a prophet. The verse you gave says God chose him and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above all people. This does not say He even gave Adam guidance in anything, much less have him teach others!

Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-" (3:33)

That Noah was the first messenger in the hadith does not mean Adam had to have been the first prophet. For all we know, Noah could have been both the first messenger and the first prophet.

If we take the tafsirs into account, they do say that Adam was a prophet. However, if we are going to assume they are unreliable and it is necessary to rely on "reliable Islamic sources" like the hadith or Quran, the question still stands: where does Islam teach that Adam was a prophet?

Shukran. Smile


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 29 December 2012 at 11:11am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace.

I admitted that 3:33 means Adam is a prophet because I read Ibn Jalalayn's commentary of it:

Lo! God preferred, He has chosen, Adam and Noah and the House of Abraham and the House of ‘Imrān, meaning [He preferred] their selves [sc. Abraham and ‘Imrān], above the worlds, by making prophethood reside in [them and] their progeny:

Without the commentary, the Quran does not say or imply Adam is a prophet. The verse you gave says God chose him and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above all people. This does not say He even gave Adam guidance in anything, much less have him teach others!


Walaikum as-salaam.  The commentary is correct since the verse includes Adam (pbuh) in a list with other prophets, such as Noah (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh).  It would not make sense to include Adam in that list if he was not a prophet.

Originally posted by TG12345

That Noah was the first messenger in the hadith does not mean Adam had to have been the first prophet. For all we know, Noah could have been both the first messenger and the first prophet.


But then the hadith would have said that, but didn't.  Noah (pbuh) was referred specifically as the first "messenger" (which also means he was a prophet).  It did not say he was the first "prophet and messenger". 

Originally posted by TG12345

If we take the tafsirs into account, they do say that Adam was a prophet. However, if we are going to assume they are unreliable and it is necessary to rely on "reliable Islamic sources" like the hadith or Quran, the question still stands: where does Islam teach that Adam was a prophet?


Your confusion is your own.  It is highly unlikely that the Tafsir Al-Jalalayn was basing its interpretation of the Israliyyat, given that Jews do not believe that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, and neither do Christians!  LOL

The Quran and Hadiths are both clear on the issue.  I don't even know why it matters to you whether Islam teaches that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet or not.  You are not even a Muslim! 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 29 December 2012 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

All glory and honour to Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace.

I admitted that 3:33 means Adam is a prophet because I read Ibn Jalalayn's commentary of it:

Lo! God preferred, He has chosen, Adam and Noah and the House of Abraham and the House of ‘Imrān, meaning [He preferred] their selves [sc. Abraham and ‘Imrān], above the worlds, by making prophethood reside in [them and] their progeny:

Without the commentary, the Quran does not say or imply Adam is a prophet. The verse you gave says God chose him and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above all people. This does not say He even gave Adam guidance in anything, much less have him teach others!


Originally posted by islamispeace

Walaikum as-salaam.  The commentary is correct since the verse includes Adam (pbuh) in a list with other prophets, such as Noah (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh).  It would not make sense to include Adam in that list if he was not a prophet.

That is an interpretation of yours and perhaps of many other Muslims, but you cannot be 100% sure since neither the Quran or hadith say he is a prophet. He could have been mentioned because he was the first man created.

Originally posted by TG12345

That Noah was the first messenger in the hadith does not mean Adam had to have been the first prophet. For all we know, Noah could have been both the first messenger and the first prophet.


Originally posted by islamispeace

But then the hadith would have said that, but didn't.  Noah (pbuh) was referred specifically as the first "messenger" (which also means he was a prophet).  It did not say he was the first "prophet and messenger".

This hadith also does not say that Adam was the first prophet, or that he was a prophet at all, which is something you are claiming.
 

Originally posted by TG12345

If we take the tafsirs into account, they do say that Adam was a prophet. However, if we are going to assume they are unreliable and it is necessary to rely on "reliable Islamic sources" like the hadith or Quran, the question still stands: where does Islam teach that Adam was a prophet?


Originally posted by islamispeace

Your confusion is your own.  It is highly unlikely that the Tafsir Al-Jalalayn was basing its interpretation of the Israliyyat, given that Jews do not believe that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, and neither do Christians!  LOL

Neither Jews or Christians believe that Noah's son died in the flood, yet that account found its ways into the tafsir.

Originally posted by islamispeace

The Quran and Hadiths are both clear on the issue.  I don't even know why it matters to you whether Islam teaches that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet or not.  You are not even a Muslim! 

It is just interesting because you are so careful in doing research, which often is good, and tell me I should not assume based on sources that are not the Quran or hadith... yet in spite of the fact they do not say Adam was a prophet, you maintain that he was.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 December 2012 at 3:28pm
Here is some more evidence from the Quran that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet:

"Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful." (2:37)

The fact that he received revelation from Allah (swt) implies that he was a prophet.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 30 December 2012 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Here is some more evidence from the Quran that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet:

"Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful." (2:37)

The fact that he received revelation from Allah (swt) implies that he was a prophet.

Salaam Alaikum islamispeace. Thank you for your response.

Does the Quran or hadith say that only prophets receive words of inspiration from God? Note the word used is "inspiration", not revelation. Is there any evidence of Adam sharing this inspiration with other people, something a prophet would do?


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 30 December 2012 at 7:19pm
Therefore Paul was also a Prophet, at least one of the 124,000.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 31 December 2012 at 4:28pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

That is an interpretation of yours and perhaps of many other Muslims, but you cannot be 100% sure since neither the Quran or hadith say he is a prophet. He could have been mentioned because he was the first man created.


Again, it is not your place to tell Muslims how to interpret the Quran.  Your interpretation is meaningless because:

1.  You are not a Muslim,

2.  Muslims unanimously believe that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, and,

3.  You don't believe that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.

As I said, the very fact that Adam (pbuh) was included in the same list as Noah (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) shows that he was also a prophet.  Your claim that he was included "because he was the first man created" is based on your own opinion and authority, which means nothing since you are not a Muslim nor are you an Islamic scholar.

Originally posted by TG12345

This hadith also does not say that Adam was the first prophet, or that he was a prophet at all, which is something you are claiming.


This is irrelevant.  As I said, the fact that Noah (pbuh) is specifically referred to as the "first messenger" and not the "first messenger and prophet", means that Adam (pbuh) was the first prophet.

Originally posted by TG12345

Neither Jews or Christians believe that Noah's son died in the flood, yet that account found its ways into the tafsir.


That's because it is in the Quran:

"So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!" The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy! "And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood." (11:42-43)


Neither this story nor the belief that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet are found in Jewish traditions.  Therefore, they cannot be the source the tafsirs consulted.

Originally posted by TG12345

It is just interesting because you are so careful in doing research, which often is good, and tell me I should not assume based on sources that are not the Quran or hadith... yet in spite of the fact they do not say Adam was a prophet, you maintain that he was.


They do say that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, albeit implicitly.  Muslim scholars are unanimous on this matter. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 31 December 2012 at 4:40pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by islamispeace

Here is some more evidence from the Quran that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet:

"Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful." (2:37)

The fact that he received revelation from Allah (swt) implies that he was a prophet.

Salaam Alaikum islamispeace. Thank you for your response.

Does the Quran or hadith say that only prophets receive words of inspiration from God? Note the word used is "inspiration", not revelation. Is there any evidence of Adam sharing this inspiration with other people, something a prophet would do?


The Arabic word used is "kalimatin", which means "words".  The Yusuf Ali translation adds "of inspiration", but the meaning is still clear.  Adam (pbuh) learned these words directly from Allah (swt).  In other words, he received revelation. 

The next verse tells Adam and Eve that they will receive "guidance", and as I pointed out, God sent His guidance to people through His prophets.  Adam's people would have received God's guidance through Adam (pbuh).




-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 31 December 2012 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Webber

Therefore Paul was also a Prophet, at least one of the 124,000.


Not at all.  The prophets taught that God is One, not three in one, which is what Paul taught.  He also worshiped Jesus as "God", whereas the Quran states:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."" (5:17)

Therefore, Paul could not have been a "prophet". 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 31 December 2012 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

All honour and praise be His.

Originally posted by TG12345

That is an interpretation of yours and perhaps of many other Muslims, but you cannot be 100% sure since neither the Quran or hadith say he is a prophet. He could have been mentioned because he was the first man created.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Again, it is not your place to tell Muslims how to interpret the Quran.  Your interpretation is meaningless because:

1.  You are not a Muslim,

2.  Muslims unanimously believe that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, and,

3.  You don't believe that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.

You aren't a Christian either and don't believe the Bible is God's word, yet in our debate you have argued Mark 10:18 states Jesus is not God... although the vast majority of Christians and Biblical scholars will tell you that in the passage Jesus is affirming, not denying His divinity. I don't tell you it is not your place to tell Christians how to interpret the Bible.

Having said this, if Islam is based on what is in the Quran and hadith, the fact remains that neither explicitly says that Adam was a prophet. Whether or not Muslims unanimously believe he was or wasn't doesn't change this fact.

Originally posted by islamispeace

As I said, the very fact that Adam (pbuh) was included in the same list as Noah (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) shows that he was also a prophet.  Your claim that he was included "because he was the first man created" is based on your own opinion and authority, which means nothing since you are not a Muslim nor are you an Islamic scholar.

Fair enough. I am neither a Muslim or a Muslim scholar. The fact remains though that you assume he is a prophet because he is placed alongside Abraham and Moses, who the Quran states were prophets. However, you have no way of knowing 100%.

Originally posted by TG12345

This hadith also does not say that Adam was the first prophet, or that he was a prophet at all, which is something you are claiming.


Originally posted by islamispeace

This is irrelevant.  As I said, the fact that Noah (pbuh) is specifically referred to as the "first messenger" and not the "first messenger and prophet", means that Adam (pbuh) was the first prophet.

You assume it means that, and so may most or all Muslims. Neither the hadith or Quran however affirm or deny this.

Originally posted by TG12345

Neither Jews or Christians believe that Noah's son died in the flood, yet that account found its ways into the tafsir.


Originally posted by islamispeace

That's because it is in the Quran:

"So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!" The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy! "And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood." (11:42-43)


Neither this story nor the belief that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet are found in Jewish traditions.  Therefore, they cannot be the source the tafsirs consulted.

Why would the tafsir writers use Islamic sources which they believe are true, and non-Islamic sources in their tafsir of the same events?


Originally posted by TG12345

It is just interesting because you are so careful in doing research, which often is good, and tell me I should not assume based on sources that are not the Quran or hadith... yet in spite of the fact they do not say Adam was a prophet, you maintain that he was.


Originally posted by islamispeace

They do say that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, albeit implicitly.  Muslim scholars are unanimous on this matter. 

They give details about him that make you believe he was a prophet, but they don't state that he was or was not one way or the other.


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 31 December 2012 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Webber

Therefore Paul was also a Prophet, at least one of the 124,000.


Not at all.  The prophets taught that God is One, not three in one, which is what Paul taught.  He also worshiped Jesus as "God", whereas the Quran states:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."" (5:17)

Therefore, Paul could not have been a "prophet". 
 
Paul was not a trinitarian, Muslims only wish he was and twist what they can to make it so.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 11:42am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

You aren't a Christian either and don't believe the Bible is God's word, yet in our debate you have argued Mark 10:18 states Jesus is not God... although the vast majority of Christians and Biblical scholars will tell you that in the passage Jesus is affirming, not denying His divinity. I don't tell you it is not your place to tell Christians how to interpret the Bible.


Actually, if you had read my responses in that thread from the beginning, you would have seen that I used Christian sources to prove that those verses are not even authentic.  I also referred to Barnes' Notes to show that the verses, if authentic, were not fulfilled as promised, since there is no evidence in the Bible that any Christian was able to drink poison and survive.  Therefore, how can you say that I am telling Christians how to interpret the Bible? Confused  I have used Christian sources to make my arguments! 

In you case, you have presented no evidence except your own opinions about how to interpret the Quran and Hadiths.  You have done so not only on this thread but on others as well.

Originally posted by TG12345

Having said this, if Islam is based on what is in the Quran and hadith, the fact remains that neither explicitly says that Adam was a prophet. Whether or not Muslims unanimously believe he was or wasn't doesn't change this fact.


It does not matter what you think.  You are not an expert on Islam and your opinion is far outweighed by Islamic scholars.  The Quran and Hadiths are both clear that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change this fact.

Originally posted by TG12345

Fair enough. I am neither a Muslim or a Muslim scholar. The fact remains though that you assume he is a prophet because he is placed alongside Abraham and Moses, who the Quran states were prophets. However, you have no way of knowing 100%.


Again, you have no say on this matter.  The scholars of Islam agree that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet and they base this on the Quran and Hadiths.  End of story. 

Since both Noah and Abraham were prophets, it means that Adam was a prophet as well.  Other verses also imply that he was  a prophet. 

In addition, there actually is a hadith in the compilation of Ibn Hibbaan, which is considered to be authentic, which clearly states that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet http://islamqa.com/en/ref/10551/ - [1] .

Originally posted by TG12345

You assume it means that, and so may most or all Muslims. Neither the hadith or Quran however affirm or deny this.


And your opinions are far outweighed by the unanimous agreement among Muslims. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Why would the tafsir writers use Islamic sources which they believe are true, and non-Islamic sources in their tafsir of the same events?


I have already answered this question several times.  The exegetes often times used outside sources to fill-in details of the Quranic narrative which are not found in either the Quran or Hadiths.  In the case of one of Noah's sons being drowned in the flood, this is based on the Quran itself.    However, on other issues, such as the flood and other events which occurred thousands of years before, they did utilize the Jewish sources when there was no information in the Islamic sources.  That is why the tafsirs cannot be considered to be error-free.

Originally posted by TG12345

They give details about him that make you believe he was a prophet, but they don't state that he was or was not one way or the other.
   

Irregardless of your personal opinions, the Quran states that Adam (pbuh) received God's words.  That makes him a prophet.   



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 11:57am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Webber

Paul was not a trinitarian, Muslims only wish he was and twist what they can to make it so.


Um, there are about 2 billion Christians who believe he was a trinitarian.  Don't blame Muslims for what your fellow Christians believe.

You may actually be right that Paul was probably not a trinitarian, since that concept was not developed until decades after Paul.  However, you cannot deny that Paul worshiped Jesus (pbuh), whereas Jesus never claimed to be divine and worshiped only God.  Hence, Paul could not have been a true prophet. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Blessed be His name.

Originally posted by TG12345

You aren't a Christian either and don't believe the Bible is God's word, yet in our debate you have argued Mark 10:18 states Jesus is not God... although the vast majority of Christians and Biblical scholars will tell you that in the passage Jesus is affirming, not denying His divinity. I don't tell you it is not your place to tell Christians how to interpret the Bible.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Actually, if you had read my responses in that thread from the beginning, you would have seen that I used Christian sources to prove that those verses are not even authentic.  I also referred to Barnes' Notes to show that the verses, if authentic, were not fulfilled as promised, since there is no evidence in the Bible that any Christian was able to drink poison and survive.  Therefore, how can you say that I am telling Christians how to interpret the Bible? Confused  I have used Christian sources to make my arguments! 

LOL. Speaking of actually reading what the other person wrote, you may want to take into account that I wrote Mark 10:18 which, in our debate (off forum), you stated shows that Jesus did not dare to compare Himself to God.

I will post Mark 10:18 for you.

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

You got it confused with Mark 16:15-18.


So... ConfusedConfused double to you LOL.

Speaking of commentary on Mark 10:18, here is one:


http://gill.biblecommenter.com/mark/10.htm - Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And Jesus said unto him,.... The same as in Mat_. 19:17, See Gill on http://bible.cc/matthew/19-17.htm - Matthew 19:17 .

Why callest thou me good? This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:

there is none good, but one, that is, God; some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with http://niv.scripturetext.com/deuteronomy/6-4.htm - Deuteronomy 6:4 , but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects (a); seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/19-17.htm - Matthew 19:17 , this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew (b) has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.

(a) R. Isaac Chizzuk Emuna, par. 2. c. 19. p. 408. (b) Ib.

http://bible.cc/mark/10-18.htm

Most Christians also interpret it this way. Yet you, who are not a Biblical scholar, and many Muslims, interpret it to mean Jesus is saying He is not God.

I don't get angry at you for providing your interpretation of some passages in the Bible or tell you that "your interpretation is meaningless" although most Christians and most Biblical scholars would disagree with you on that. 

Christian scholars are human beings. So are Muslim scholars. People are not infallible. Only God is. It is possible for a majority of scholars, scientists, lawmakers, teachers, professors, humanity to be wrong about something.

We are allowed to question their interpretations and views. They are not God.

Originally posted by islamispeace

In you case, you have presented no evidence except your own opinions about how to interpret the Quran and Hadiths.  You have done so not only on this thread but on others as well.

You have presented no evidence before writing this post, that the Quran says Adam is a prophet.

On the subject of the other threads, I am assuming you refer to the Great Flood, I have presented evidence of not only tafsir writers but also other scholars (I wrote that post a few hours ago, so I don't know when it will be up) but also a fatwa that states it was global and that it did drown all humanity, as well as versions of the Quran which state that the people on the Ark were "ancestors" and "mankind".

I look forward to seeing evidence of scholars that state the Flood was a regional event.

Originally posted by TG12345

Having said this, if Islam is based on what is in the Quran and hadith, the fact remains that neither explicitly says that Adam was a prophet. Whether or not Muslims unanimously believe he was or wasn't doesn't change this fact.


Originally posted by islamispeace

It does not matter what you think.  You are not an expert on Islam and your opinion is far outweighed by Islamic scholars.  The Quran and Hadiths are both clear that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change this fact.

Your opinion that in Mark 10:18 Jesus said He is not God matters even less then, since you are not an expert on Christianity and your opinion is far outweighed by Biblical scholars. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change this fact.

In spite of this, I will not go around telling you that your views don't matter, because my faith is strong enough to hear and refute your statements and trying to shut down a conversation is a form of weakness in my view by claiming "this is what the majority of scholars think so you have no say in the matter".

Originally posted by islamispeace

In addition, there actually is a hadith in the compilation of Ibn Hibbaan, which is considered to be authentic, which clearly states that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet http://islamqa.com/en/ref/10551/ - [1] .

Thank you for finally showing a hadith that states this!!!! In light of this, I agree with you that there is definitely proof that according to Islam, Adam was a prophet.



Originally posted by TG12345

You assume it means that, and so may most or all Muslims. Neither the hadith or Quran however affirm or deny this.


And your opinions are far outweighed by the unanimous agreement among Muslims. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Why would the tafsir writers use Islamic sources which they believe are true, and non-Islamic sources in their tafsir of the same events?


Originally posted by islamispeace

I have already answered this question several times.  The exegetes often times used outside sources to fill-in details of the Quranic narrative which are not found in either the Quran or Hadiths.  In the case of one of Noah's sons being drowned in the flood, this is based on the Quran itself.    However, on other issues, such as the flood and other events which occurred thousands of years before, they did utilize the Jewish sources when there was no information in the Islamic sources.  That is why the tafsirs cannot be considered to be error-free.

Fair enough. Is it fair to say what is contained in them is only certified as true by Muslims if it is also found in the Quran or hadith that are considered authentic?

Originally posted by TG12345

They give details about him that make you believe he was a prophet, but they don't state that he was or was not one way or the other.
   

Originally posted by islamispeace

Irregardless of your personal opinions, the Quran states that Adam (pbuh) received God's words.  That makes him a prophet.

I agree now that Islam teaches Adam is a prophet, based on Ibn Hibbaan's sahih.  

[/QUOTE]


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 January 2013 at 3:46pm
TG12345,
you said above:
"You aren't a Christian either and don't believe the Bible is God's word, yet in our debate you have argued Mark 10:18 states Jesus is not God... although the vast majority of Christians and Biblical scholars will tell you that in the passage Jesus is affirming, not denying His divinity. I don't tell you it is not your place to tell Christians how to interpret the Bible.

Having said this, if Islam is based on what is in the Quran and hadith, the fact remains that neither explicitly says that Adam was a prophet. Whether or not Muslims unanimously believe he was or wasn't doesn't change this fact."


Dear TG12345,
I know many Muslims who were Christians like you in my very close circle who say they never thought of Jesus as God even when they were Christians. Also do not forget that it is the same Bible that quotes Jesus saying he has a God when he said " to my father and your father, to my God and your God" or that "my father is greater than I" while ya'll try to impose that he and God are equal.

As far as the matter of whether Adam was given revelation, i.e. if he was also a messenger the answer is in both the Quran and the Bible.
We must first understand what is the purpose of prophets and messengers was? The purpose was to bring knowledge and guidance so people can distinguish between right and wrong, permissible and forbidden. This is what all the prophets or messengers did.
Let us see if Adam, according to the scriptures qualifies.
There are several places where we can find proof that Adam was indeed given guidance by God as well commandments to stay away from certain thing(s). Here in this example Hosea 6 gives us some proof.
(this is for those who believe in the Bible, and do not believe Muslim sources).
Please read: Hosea6:7 "But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant": This statement clearly states that Adam has a covenant with God, like Moses and other prophets did.
If you think about the whole matter of Adam being taken out of heaven, it is a proof in itself that that could have only happen after God has given him the rules, which we believe He did, and Adam broke that rule. So just in that is the proof that Adam received guidance from God. And that guidance was the word of God, thus he was the first prophet.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 January 2013 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Again, you have no say on this matter. The scholars of Islam agree that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet and they base this on the Quran and Hadiths. End of story.
Originally posted by TG12345

You assume it means that, and so may most or all Muslims. Neither the hadith or Quran however affirm or deny this.

And your opinions are far outweighed by the unanimous agreement among Muslims.
and if the muslims are astray in their thinking...? if their 'scholars' have led them astray...?


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 02 January 2013 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by honeto

TG12345,
you said above:
"You aren't a Christian either and don't believe the Bible is God's word, yet in our debate you have argued Mark 10:18 states Jesus is not God... although the vast majority of Christians and Biblical scholars will tell you that in the passage Jesus is affirming, not denying His divinity. I don't tell you it is not your place to tell Christians how to interpret the Bible.

Having said this, if Islam is based on what is in the Quran and hadith, the fact remains that neither explicitly says that Adam was a prophet. Whether or not Muslims unanimously believe he was or wasn't doesn't change this fact."


Dear TG12345,
I know many Muslims who were Christians like you in my very close circle who say they never thought of Jesus as God even when they were Christians. Also do not forget that it is the same Bible that quotes Jesus saying he has a God when he said " to my father and your father, to my God and your God" or that "my father is greater than I" while ya'll try to impose that he and God are equal.

As far as the matter of whether Adam was given revelation, i.e. if he was also a messenger the answer is in both the Quran and the Bible.
We must first understand what is the purpose of prophets and messengers was? The purpose was to bring knowledge and guidance so people can distinguish between right and wrong, permissible and forbidden. This is what all the prophets or messengers did.
Let us see if Adam, according to the scriptures qualifies.
There are several places where we can find proof that Adam was indeed given guidance by God as well commandments to stay away from certain thing(s). Here in this example Hosea 6 gives us some proof.
(this is for those who believe in the Bible, and do not believe Muslim sources).
Please read: Hosea6:7 "But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant": This statement clearly states that Adam has a covenant with God, like Moses and other prophets did.
If you think about the whole matter of Adam being taken out of heaven, it is a proof in itself that that could have only happen after God has given him the rules, which we believe He did, and Adam broke that rule. So just in that is the proof that Adam received guidance from God. And that guidance was the word of God, thus he was the first prophet.
Hasan


Salaam Alaikum, honeto.

To answer your first point, though you may know some ex-Christians who didn't believe Jesus was God, that doesn't change the fact that this is what most Christians (and who are true to the Christian faith) believe and it also doesn't change the fact that the Bible says He is God.

When my wife lived overseas, she stayed in a host family whose dad was Muslim and despite of this he ate pork chops, drank alcohol and wouldn't pray or go to the mosque. A Muslim organization in my country is a loud supporter of "gay rights" and has people reinterpreting the Quran to challenge passages that make it clear homosexuality is a sin. And as I am sure you will point out, there are also some Christians who do this with the Bible.

http://www.muslimunion.ca/20070621.html

The point is don't make a judgement about a religion based on fringes... this applies to both violent fundamentalists and the "extreme liberals". Both our faiths have people like that.

That some Muslims drink alcohol doesn't mean the Quran says it is ok, and because some Christians deny Jesus is God does not mean they are in agreement with the Bible.

While on earth, Jesus made Himself inferior to the Father. If you had checked out my response to your statement on the link below you would have seen the relevant passage. I am pasting it again.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24482&PN=2

Philippians 2:5-11

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very nature http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-29398a - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=phillipians%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29398a - a ] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-29399b - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=phillipians%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29399b - b ] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.


While on earth, Jesus chose to make Himself inferior to the Father, although He was in nature God as well. That is why He said the Father is greater than Him and why He called Him His God.

Islamispeace showed me a hadith that teaches Muslims believe Adam was a prophet. The Bible states Adam had a covenant with God, but this does not make him a prophet. God made once a covenant with the entire nation of Israel... does this mean they were all prophets? Of course not.

I understand that Islam teaches Adam was a prophet. Christianity does not teach this. We believe he was the first human being created, who messed up, and despite this God still provided for him and loved him. The story of Adam to us does not show how good he was, but rather how loving and merciful God is.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 03 January 2013 at 7:16pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

LOL. Speaking of actually reading what the other person wrote, you may want to take into account that I wrote Mark 10:18 which, in our debate (off forum), you stated shows that Jesus did not dare to compare Himself to God.

I will post Mark 10:18 for you.

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

You got it confused with Mark 16:15-18.


So... ConfusedConfused double to you LOL.


Yes, I misread the verse you were talking about.  However, this doesn't change the fact that with regard to Mark 16, I still showed using Christian sources, that the verses pertaining to the miracles are not even authentic.

Originally posted by TG12345

Speaking of commentary on Mark 10:18, here is one:


http://gill.biblecommenter.com/mark/10.htm - Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And Jesus said unto him,.... The same as in Mat_. 19:17, See Gill on http://bible.cc/matthew/19-17.htm - Matthew 19:17 .

Why callest thou me good? This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:

there is none good, but one, that is, God; some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with http://niv.scripturetext.com/deuteronomy/6-4.htm - Deuteronomy 6:4 , but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects (a); seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/19-17.htm - Matthew 19:17 , this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew (b) has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.

(a) R. Isaac Chizzuk Emuna, par. 2. c. 19. p. 408. (b) Ib.

http://bible.cc/mark/10-18.htm

Most Christians also interpret it this way. Yet you, who are not a Biblical scholar, and many Muslims, interpret it to mean Jesus is saying He is not God.

I never said that most Christians do not interpret it that way.  Of course Christians would want the verse to say that Jesus is indeed "God"!  That is nothing new.  By the way, Webber is one "Christian" who would disagree with you!  See his above posts. 

But I do concede your point. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I don't get angry at you for providing your interpretation of some passages in the Bible or tell you that "your interpretation is meaningless" although most Christians and most Biblical scholars would disagree with you on that.
  

I didn't just say your opinions are "meaningless".  I said they are meaningless when compared to the unanimous agreement among Muslims that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  For you to argue otherwise is futile.

Originally posted by TG12345

Christian scholars are human beings. So are Muslim scholars. People are not infallible. Only God is. It is possible for a majority of scholars, scientists, lawmakers, teachers, professors, humanity to be wrong about something.

Certainly, which may explain why so many Christian scholars believe that Jesus is "God". 

Originally posted by TG12345

We are allowed to question their interpretations and views. They are not God.

Questioning must be done through facts and not on one's opinions.  You were quite insistent that Muslims are just "assuming" that Adam was a prophet and that the Quran and Hadiths are not clear. 

Originally posted by TG12345

You have presented no evidence before writing this post, that the Quran says Adam is a prophet.

I disagree.  The evidence presented, even before the last hadith I mentioned, showed conclusively that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.

Originally posted by TG12345

On the subject of the other threads, I am assuming you refer to the Great Flood, I have presented evidence of not only tafsir writers but also other scholars (I wrote that post a few hours ago, so I don't know when it will be up) but also a fatwa that states it was global and that it did drown all humanity, as well as versions of the Quran which state that the people on the Ark were "ancestors" and "mankind".

I look forward to seeing evidence of scholars that state the Flood was a regional event.

That is a separate topic and it will be discussed in that thread.

Originally posted by TG12345

Your opinion that in Mark 10:18 Jesus said He is not God matters even less then, since you are not an expert on Christianity and your opinion is far outweighed by Biblical scholars. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change this fact.

In spite of this, I will not go around telling you that your views don't matter, because my faith is strong enough to hear and refute your statements and trying to shut down a conversation is a form of weakness in my view by claiming "this is what the majority of scholars think so you have no say in the matter".

Irregardless, the fact remains that you had not refuted any of the evidence I provided except by denying their significance on your own authority.  You did not present any counter evidence to show that Adam was actually not a prophet. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Thank you for finally showing a hadith that states this!!!! In light of this, I agree with you that there is definitely proof that according to Islam, Adam was a prophet.

Even before this hadith, it was clear that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet. 

 



  







-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 04 January 2013 at 4:23am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Blessed be His Name.

Originally posted by TG12345

LOL. Speaking of actually reading what the other person wrote, you may want to take into account that I wrote Mark 10:18 which, in our debate (off forum), you stated shows that Jesus did not dare to compare Himself to God.

I will post Mark 10:18 for you.

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

You got it confused with Mark 16:15-18.


So... ConfusedConfused double to you LOL.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Yes, I misread the verse you were talking about.  However, this doesn't change the fact that with regard to Mark 16, I still showed using Christian sources, that the verses pertaining to the miracles are not even authentic.

That's nice, but it doesn't change the fact that in regards to Mark 10 you weren't.

Originally posted by TG12345

Speaking of commentary on Mark 10:18, here is one:


http://gill.biblecommenter.com/mark/10.htm - Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And Jesus said unto him,.... The same as in Mat_. 19:17, See Gill on http://bible.cc/matthew/19-17.htm - Matthew 19:17 .

Why callest thou me good? This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:

there is none good, but one, that is, God; some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with http://niv.scripturetext.com/deuteronomy/6-4.htm - Deuteronomy 6:4 , but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects (a); seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/19-17.htm - Matthew 19:17 , this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew (b) has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.

(a) R. Isaac Chizzuk Emuna, par. 2. c. 19. p. 408. (b) Ib.

http://bible.cc/mark/10-18.htm

Most Christians also interpret it this way. Yet you, who are not a Biblical scholar, and many Muslims, interpret it to mean Jesus is saying He is not God.

Originally posted by islamispeace

I never said that most Christians do not interpret it that way.  Of course Christians would want the verse to say that Jesus is indeed "God"!  That is nothing new.  By the way, Webber is one "Christian" who would disagree with you!  See his above posts. 

But I do concede your point.

Fair enough.

Rashad Khalifa is one "Muslim" who would disagree with you that the hadiths are a part of Islam. Isrshad Manji is another "Muslim" who would disagree... with both of us... that homosexuality is a sin.

Let's examine what each faith really teaches and not use theologies that most Christians and most Muslims reject. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I don't get angry at you for providing your interpretation of some passages in the Bible or tell you that "your interpretation is meaningless" although most Christians and most Biblical scholars would disagree with you on that.
  

Originally posted by islamispeace

I didn't just say your opinions are "meaningless".  I said they are meaningless when compared to the unanimous agreement among Muslims that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.  For you to argue otherwise is futile.

I see what you meant. I thought you were getting upset with me challenging Muslim views on your faith while you are comfortable challenging Christian views on our faith.

Originally posted by TG12345

Christian scholars are human beings. So are Muslim scholars. People are not infallible. Only God is. It is possible for a majority of scholars, scientists, lawmakers, teachers, professors, humanity to be wrong about something.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Certainly, which may explain why so many Christian scholars believe that Jesus is "God".

We believe Jesus is God because He is. A majority of Muslims if not all falsely believe Jesus was not God, and that Muhammad was His "messenger". 

Originally posted by TG12345

We are allowed to question their interpretations and views. They are not God.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Questioning must be done through facts and not on one's opinions.  You were quite insistent that Muslims are just "assuming" that Adam was a prophet and that the Quran and Hadiths are not clear.

Because before you showed me that hadith, the other evidence did not explicitly say he was a prophet. Now I concede that the hadiths do teach that he was one. 

Originally posted by TG12345

You have presented no evidence before writing this post, that the Quran says Adam is a prophet.

Originally posted by islamispeace

I disagree.  The evidence presented, even before the last hadith I mentioned, showed conclusively that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet. 

It didn't. However, the last hadith you mentioned did.

Originally posted by TG12345

On the subject of the other threads, I am assuming you refer to the Great Flood, I have presented evidence of not only tafsir writers but also other scholars (I wrote that post a few hours ago, so I don't know when it will be up) but also a fatwa that states it was global and that it did drown all humanity, as well as versions of the Quran which state that the people on the Ark were "ancestors" and "mankind".

I look forward to seeing evidence of scholars that state the Flood was a regional event.

Originally posted by islamispeace

That is a separate topic and it will be discussed in that thread.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by TG12345

Your opinion that in Mark 10:18 Jesus said He is not God matters even less then, since you are not an expert on Christianity and your opinion is far outweighed by Biblical scholars. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't change this fact.

In spite of this, I will not go around telling you that your views don't matter, because my faith is strong enough to hear and refute your statements and trying to shut down a conversation is a form of weakness in my view by claiming "this is what the majority of scholars think so you have no say in the matter".

Originally posted by islamispeace

Irregardless, the fact remains that you had not refuted any of the evidence I provided except by denying their significance on your own authority.  You did not present any counter evidence to show that Adam was actually not a prophet.

My counter-evidence was the lack of proof from the Quran or hadiths that he was one. Then you presented a hadith that states he was. For that I thank you.  

Originally posted by TG12345

Thank you for finally showing a hadith that states this!!!! In light of this, I agree with you that there is definitely proof that according to Islam, Adam was a prophet.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Even before this hadith, it was clear that Adam (pbuh) was a prophet.

I disagree. It is clear now though that Islam teaches he was a prophet.




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