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LET US FULFILL OUR OBLIGATIONS

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24451
Printed Date: 31 July 2014 at 2:50pm


Topic: LET US FULFILL OUR OBLIGATIONS
Posted By: Friendship
Subject: LET US FULFILL OUR OBLIGATIONS
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 12:36pm

Assalamu alaikum.

The USA is unquestionably accepted as the most civilized and advanced country in the world. This is because of its level of education that is defined by Muhammad Rasulullah as the ability to discern the truth. All are to follow and emulate its civilization. If its sneezes the rest of the world barks. The USA is indeed looking for ways to remove and deal away with terrorism- to be buried forever. This calls on her to be just and abide by the truth. To the Western world, Islam in particular the final message through Muhammad is the precipitating factor of our social unrest and economic downturn. That is true superficially for every disaster is a product of Nature.

Recently loonwatch.com carried an advert by Pamella Geller the outspoken blogger and Executive Director of the American Freedom Defense Initiative. She has just purchased a slew of advertising space in several subway stations and on numerous Metro-North platforms in order to display her newest anti-Islam message: "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers."

In the first instance, she quoted a clause instead of the full verse (sentence). This is allowed only if the quotation is supported by the reason behind quoting that clause. This gives rise to distortion and misinterpretation with the resulting consequence of provoking intimidating those followers of Muhammad who are illiterate and ready to cause mischief. This style of misquoting the Qur’an is the main ingredient behind Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

The clause quoted by Pamella is referring to Abu Sufyan the Chieftain of the Quraysh during the battle of Uhud. This was the battle in which the believers were defeated and Muhammad injured. The cause was disregarding the command of Muhammad to 50 archers he posted to stop the advance of Khalid ibn Walid. When the Quraysh were on their way to Makka, Abu Sufyan decided to turn back and continue with the battle and defeat Muhammad finally. It was at this junction that Allah revealed to Muhammad Qur’an 3:151, “We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the wrong-doers.”

According to the ethics and guidelines in the commentary of the Qur’an, the verse/clause does not in any way refer to the Americans or any one. It will never apply to the Western world for it has on many occasions stated that it is not fighting Islam/Muhammad Rasulullah.

I have called on this forum many times to play it soft and stop accusing Muhammad or just holding the Qur’an and reading. It has to be explained and no one can explain it thoroughly except the one who understands the nature of Arab language and follows the standard explanation.

Those who want to criticize the followers of Muhammad in order to bring them back to the way of life of Muhammad are welcomed. This is what the Western civilization should adopt for they should see to it in their areas of jurisdictions the actions of Muhammad Rasulullah are followed to the latter.  This is what Allah is expecting from them. This is the only way to counteract terrorism- the spread of Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

I am advising Pamella Geller to use her resources in correcting the followers of Muhammad Rasullah in performing their devotions according to the practice set up by Muhammad Rasulullah. She can buy this book: ISBN 1468070444 detailing the practice of Muhammad during prayers and distribute it to all Mosques in New York. She should see to it that the Mayor of New York makes it a rule for all mosques to follow the instructions contained in that book. From then, New York will never suffer any terrorist act. The amount of money spent by the Mayor on electronic surveillance and other security measures will now be converted to social welfare. Muhammad cannot be a liar! At least practice leads to perfection!

Friendship.





Replies:
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 13 December 2012 at 12:10am
The USA is unquestionably accepted as the most civilized and advanced country in the world. This is because of its level of education that is defined by Muhammad Rasulullah as the ability to discern the truth.

As a result she (USA)has produced people like Pamella Geller:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Geller
Pamela Geller (born June 14, 1958)[5] is an American blogger, author, political activist, and commentator.[1] She is known primarily for her criticisms of Islam and opposition to Muslim activities and causes, such as the proposed construction of an Islamic community center near the former site of the World Trade Center.[6] She has described her blogging and campaigns in the United States as being against what she terms "creeping Sharia" in the country. She has claimed her viewpoints are against "Political Islam". Her critics have described her viewpoints are Islamophobic.
Geller and Robert Spencer co-founded the Freedom Defense Initiative and Stop Islamization of America,[7] an organization which is labeled as a hate group by the Anti-Defamation League[8] and the Southern Poverty Law Center.[9][10] Geller and Spencer also co-authored the book The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War on America.[3]

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 6:51am
Friendship, I'd like to change your initial statement to:

The USA is accepted by many as one of the most civilized and advanced countries in the world.

I think there would be fewer people like Pamela Geller, if mainstream Muslims decided the leave the silent majority and become advocates for a modern 21st-century Islam without politics and the baggage of 7th-century Arab culture which had found its way into the Qur'an and the Hadith. If millions of Muslims openly supported Muslims like Irshad Manji, people like Pamela Geller would soon disappear and non-Muslims in the West would no longer fear Islam's claim of world dominance.

But the reality is discouraging. The Muslim Brotherhood was the first Islamist terror organization of the 20th century. Today they are the elected rulers of Egypt. The majority of Egyptians seem to endorse a new constitution that includes the discrimination of women, Christians and other religious minorities. Egypt is heading for disaster. Investors will avoid Egypt. Soon tourists will avoid Egypt too. The population voted for its own downfall. And Muslims in the West are silent. Muslims don't criticize Muslims.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 8:35am
Assalamu alaika Matt Browne.

I do not think we can go further because you and the rest do not know and therefore cannot understand what Muhammad came to do.
I and any true believer in Muhammad do not take and refer to someone's actions as a model. The model I have is that of Muhammad Rasulullah. So, it is sinful for any believer to refer to someone's actions unless they conform to that of Muhammad Rasulullah. Why is that you do not read what we are trying to explain to you?
I am not interested in what the 'Arabs are saying or doing as I have explained in the book ISBN: 978-1-60976-919-2

Please quote Muhammad or decline to comment on his actions. You regard the Arabs superior to me?

Friendship.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 2:32pm
Greetings Friendship,

With all due respect, will you please stop promoting this book on the forum and just talk to us.  Thanks.
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 2:34pm
Matt,
You make a very good analysis.  I think many of us would like to see contentions disappear but the change must come from the muslims themselves.
Caringheart


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 9:16pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

I am not promoting the book for any benefit other than your own. You attack Islam that is what Muhammad taught simply because you are told the wrongs. You call us to secularize , assimilate, integrate etc. Can an ignorant one be directed? What is the place of education? Why do you not want to be straightforward? We need education. Muhammad came to teach and educate. The Qur'an has described in many places your attitude. Please read to be educated, listen to the understanding of those with the same education and then use your sense of discrimination. It must be through education.

Friendship
.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 9:34pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Please understand the type of people you are talking to in this forum. Be consistent honest hopeful and with a sincere desire to help others.
Matt Browne mentioned scholars to rise and tell the truth. But you want illiteracy to prevail! If Muslims do not criticize Muslims, tell me how to stimulate them criticize themselves. Islam that is the teaching of Muhammad is universal and all must be educated. Then you participate and call the Muslims to order. That is what the book is all about! It is meant for you Christians with desire of peace to be bold and face the distortions in your books and what the Muslims  are saying based on their ignorance.
One thing is certain despite your objection. it is high time we change and receive the good from Muhammad.

Friendship.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 9:40pm
I'm sorry Friendship,
 I did not mean to be offensive but I can see where I may have sounded terse.  I only meant that it has become redundant.  I think most of us get it by now... read this book.  Smile
Salaam,
CH

and I agree with you education is key.  The easiest way to promote education, where education is limited due to economy and/or lifestyle, is through talking to others... free speech... exchanging of ideas.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



Friendship, I'd like to change your initial statement to:
   
   
   The USA is accepted by many as one of the most civilized and advanced countries in the world.I think there would be fewer people like Pamela Geller, if mainstream Muslims decided the leave the silent majority and become advocates for a modern 21st-century Islam without politics and the baggage of 7th-century Arab culture which had found its way into the Qur'an and the Hadith. If millions of Muslims openly supported Muslims like Irshad Manji, people like Pamela Geller would soon disappear and non-Muslims in the West would no longer fear Islam's claim of world dominance.But the reality is discouraging. The Muslim Brotherhood was the first Islamist terror organization of the 20th century. Today they are the elected rulers of Egypt. The majority of Egyptians seem to endorse a new constitution that includes the discrimination of women, Christians and other religious minorities. Egypt is heading for disaster. Investors will avoid Egypt. Soon tourists will avoid Egypt too. The population voted for its own downfall. And Muslims in the West are silent. Muslims don't criticize Muslims.





Matt,
Muslims who respect knowledge and take it seriously have a criterion - they take it from people (scholars) who follow on the footsteps of Prophet muahammad (phuh), who emulate him (pbuh) in their private and public life.

Irshad Manji is a Lesbian, she cannot be our teacher. You have been pointed this our earlier as well. Your insisting on promoting her reflects one of the two things; either your ignorance of muslim tradition, or your disregard of it.

I, personally do not mind either of - but would still like to point this out to you, so that you may try to know a little more about us before making futile attempts of influencing or motivating us.   

As for 7th century Arab culture - the Arabs used to bury their daughters alive and treat women like chattel. Islam came to reform that and give women a position of honor and security. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion and majority of converts into the faith are women.



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 3:01am
Assalamu alaika. Caringheart.

You behaving now like one who wants to follow Muhammad Rasulullah. I am fully aware of the economic downturn and that is the reason I am insisting of coming back to obey ONE ALLAH alone.
According to the teaching of Muhammad understanding and believing in Allah rotates on one (Caringheart) only knowing a letter, a word, a verse (sentence) and a chapter of the Qur'an. After knowing that then one has to follow the actions of Muhammad squarely in his life time.
We have problems with the Muslims. I like the West for their sensitivity to the life in this world. Look Japan throwing their prime Minister because he did not improve their economy! But the current PM was a PM before. What I am trying to assert and assure you is the current PM cannot do anything to improve the lots of his people. The lesson is from this verse: And Allah puts forward the example of a township (Makka after 610 A.D), that dwelt secure and well-content: its provision coming to it in abundance from every place, but it (its people) denied the Favors of Allah (with ungratefulness). So Allah made it taste extreme of hunger (famine) and fear, because of that (evil i.e. denying Muhammad Rasulullah) which they (its people) used to do." At that time Abu Sufyan was the leader of the Makkans. They beseech their gods to do away with the famine but failed. So he went to Madina and met Muhammad Rasulullah and addressed him, "Please beseech your Allah to remove famine from us in the manner Joseph removed famine from the Egyptians." So Muhammad prayed and the famine disappeared.
Now, in this story, there is certainly continuity of the Message for according to the Torah, Allah only listens to those righteous- his messengers and those after them who follow their way.
Look, I am not saying that the Japanse and you must convert to Islam that is to pray 5 times daily etc. I am emphasizing that the way of Muhammad is not practiced by those who profess his teaching. There are among his followers who know the reality and want to actualize it. You should support them and run away from their ignorant leaders. You can only do that through correct knowledge!
I will not mention that book again since you do not have the resources to buy it.

Friendship.



Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Matt Browne. I do not think we can go further because you and the rest do not know and therefore cannot understand what Muhammad came to do. I and any true believer in Muhammad do not take and refer to someone's actions as a model. The model I have is that of Muhammad Rasulullah. So, it is sinful for any believer to refer to someone's actions unless they conform to that of Muhammad Rasulullah. Why is that you do not read what we are trying to explain to you? I am not interested in what the 'Arabs are saying or doing as I have explained in the book ISBN: 978-1-60976-919-2 - Please quote Muhammad or decline to comment on his actions. You regard the Arabs superior to me?


Friendship, you must be aware that I'm a Christian. I am not a true believer in Muhammad, but I do respect him. As someone who's interested in knowledge I want to understand the key teachings of all world religions, which doesn't mean that I agree with all of them. I greatly respect all tolerant Muslims. I respect you and your beliefs if they are tolerant in their nature. You seem to be promoting a Rasulullah Islam, which is somewhat different from Sunni or Shia Islam. I tried to understand your view, which is available here

http://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdf - http://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdf

but found it very complicated. And I disagree with all supremacy claims. I believe in freedom. People have to be free to choose their religion. People can support or reject Muhammad Rasulullah's views and you need to accept this. If people don't want to be Christians, I have to accept this and I do. No compulsion in religion.

Today, only 20% of all Muslims are Arabs, yet Arab culture forces itself on the other 80% of Muslims. That was my point.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Irshad Manji is a Lesbian, she cannot be our teacher. You have been pointed this our earlier as well. Your insisting on promoting her reflects one of the two things; either your ignorance of muslim tradition, or your disregard of it.


I am very surprised by your statement. I was under the impression that you are a very intelligent and well educated woman, but this post amounts to something like intellectual bankruptcy. Instead of finding valid counterarguments to what Ms. Manji is saying, you declare that she must be wrong, because she's a lesbian. This is like saying that E=m*c^2 cannot be true, because Einstein is a Jew and Jews are not true believers. So I'd like to ask you to reconsider: why do you disagree with the views expressed by Ms. Manji (other than homosexuality of course)? Why do you disagree with her views about the silent Muslim majority? Why can't you consider her contributions to the debates about progress and peace? Because she is a lesbian?

I'm not ignoring Muslim traditions, but I believe in progress. Slavery was part of Muslim tradition. Is this tradition worth keeping? Discrimination against women is part of Sharia traditions? Are these traditions worth keeping? The discrimination against homosexuals is part of Christian and Muslim tradition. Is this tradition worth keeping?
 
Originally posted by Nausheen

As for 7th century Arab culture - the Arabs used to bury their daughters alive and treat women like chattel. Islam came to reform that and give women a position of honor and security. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion and majority of converts into the faith are women.


Yes, there was some progress, but it stopped when the Islamic Golden Age ended. Mainstream Muslims worldwide should embrace all human rights and the secular model. Mainstream Muslims should stop making supremacy claims ('we are the best people, we are better than everyone else').

Frequent thoughts of the US being superior to all other countries poisons American brains and damages the relationship between America and the rest of the world.

Frequent thoughts of Islam being superior to all other religions poisons Muslim brains and damages the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims.

Again and again here on Islamicity there's talk about the one and only one truth and the distortions of holy books other than the Qur'an. What does this accomplish?


-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 10:23am
Assalamu alaikum.

You said: Today, only 20% of all Muslims are Arabs, yet Arab culture forces itself on the other 80% of Muslims. That was my point.
Response: This is most unfortunate. You do not know the implication of your statement because you are not only a follower of Muhammad, but one who does not know what it is to be a follower of Muhammad. This is what I am trying to fight and change through your assistance and help. 100% of the Muslims are illiterate for they follow the Arabs blindly in the manner they worship. We need you to understand this and as I mentioned in some of my posts you should exhibit the indirect obedience and submission to the actions of Muhammad in seeing that the correct way of worship is practiced in your countries.
Secondly, I mentioned that I do not consider you as a Christian but a Muslim for there is no where in the Bible Jesus son of Maryam called or addressed his followers as Christians. Muhammad never did that.
The question of freedom is limited. Sometimes I do not like to go sleep but I have no freedom to refuse. My bed is wide but I sleep in less then 90% of its area. I do not like to go to toilet but I am forced. Yes, there is freedom but there is attended consequence in refusing to use ones power of discrimination in avoiding evil and following the Messenger. Remember the initial judgment passed on Jesus son of Maryam by Heraclius and Pillate.
Note, I do not expect you to understand that book in a short time. I have been studying the Bible (in particular the Old Testament for it much closer to the Qur'an) for 52 years now. Imagine I began yesterday! I am sure if you have been studying the Bible and its commentary for 52 years you would have understood that book.


Friendship.



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



You seem to be promoting a Rasulullah Islam, which is somewhat different from Sunni or Shia Islam. I tried to understand your view, which is available here http://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdf - http://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdf but found it very complicated.



Matt,
I'd respond to your post to me in detail when I have more time than right now.
Just wanted to clarify a small issue in your post of Friendship.

RasuluAllah means 'Rasul of Allah' or Messenger of Allah.

It is the title of Muhammad (pbuh). Its not any particular form of Islam.

Peace to you.



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:56am
Assalamu alaikum.

They neither buy or pick the fruit. They neither chew it. Everything they want is given to them without tilling the land!
This is the principal cause of our wars economic downturns and social unrest. I did not read and understood what Matt said until now.
yet they say: Education is essential. yet they dispute and disagree! What a paradox! Muhammad Rasulullah Islam?

Friendship.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



I am very surprised by your statement. I was under the impression that you are a very intelligent and well educated woman, but this post amounts to something like intellectual bankruptcy. Instead of finding valid counterarguments to what Ms. Manji is saying, you declare that she must be wrong, because she's a lesbian. This is like saying that E=m*c^2 cannot be true, because Einstein is a Jew and Jews are not true believers. So I'd like to ask you to reconsider: why do you disagree with the views expressed by Ms. Manji (other than homosexuality of course)? Why do you disagree with her views about the silent Muslim majority? Why can't you consider her contributions to the debates about progress and peace? Because she is a lesbian?


Hello Matt,

Im glad to have provoked your intelligence by my statements.
It does not matter how you consider me. However, if you were to let your message across, it does matter how you present it.
Are you aiming only the 'intelligent' and 'educated' audience among the muslims when you want to talk to them about progress? If that is the case, Irshad Manji will probably sell. As for the 'intellectually bankrupt' - we see things differently.

I did not say she was wrong. Perhaps I was not very clear - I will not even take the trouble to go out of the way - buy a book by her and read in order to know/learn what muslims should do for progress. The reason is I doubt her mantra to progress because I have qualms about she having best interest of muslims at heart. People like her call muslims backward because they do not condone lesbianism.
For our progressivness we do need to condone her personal choices. If people are calling her an outcast or doubting her being a muslim, she has a right to cry out and a right to be heard - because she is a muslim as long as she does not declare herself a disbeliever in faith. As for her judgemments about sharia and quran ...

Im a scientist and I studied secular sciences from non-muslim teachers. I dont call them wrong about their opinion in science because of their faith - since the two are not connected.

However, progress for muslims has a subtle connection with ones personal choice that defies the laws of islam.

I dont mind dining with Manji because that has nothing to do with her personal choice, but I do mind taking tips for social and personal improvement from her, because I don't see her as a person of sound judgement.
She herself is in need of help. Ive read testimonies from ex-homosexuals saying that its possible to fight this urge and start feeling normal.

A person of sound judgement acknowledges/understands the need to fight the urges that disobey the laws of God. If they don't they still have a right to exist and a right to talk, but they often lose 'appeal' about social reforms (at least for the intellectually bankrupt).


Originally posted by Matt Browne

I'm not ignoring Muslim traditions, but I believe in progress. Slavery was part of Muslim tradition. Is this tradition worth keeping? Discrimination against women is part of Sharia traditions? Are these traditions worth keeping? The discrimination against homosexuals is part of Christian and Muslim tradition. Is this tradition worth keeping?


Slavery was not a muslim tradition. It was there in Arab culture before Islam - it was worth removing thus Islam gives extremely high incentives for removing it. It could not be removed overnight - there were social and economic reasons behind that, thus Islam aimed at removing it gradually. I don't know of slaves in today's times, honestly my general knowledge is poor - would you please enlighten me on this. Thank you.

'Discrimination against women?' I dont think my definition of discrimination is same as yours. If you want to discuss this on a separate thread you are most welcome.

'Discrimination against homosexuals' I don't really understand what you mean. You see, I come from India and the word 'discrimination' largely speaks about how the 'shudras' were treated in indian society. They were treated as untouchables etc ... so my understanding could be largely flawed unless you explain further.


Originally posted by Matt Browne

Yes, there was some progress, but it stopped when the Islamic Golden Age ended.


Really? Is this a comment in response 'islam being the fastest growing religion'? Are you saying that islam is not the fastest growing religion 'after' the golden age?

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Mainstream Muslims worldwide should embrace all human rights and the secular model.


What do you mean by 'embrace the secular model'?

Are you suggesting we discard the ways of Muhammad (pbuh) and become progressive as the west?
In other words you are saying we must leave a portion of Islam to become progressive. We cannot Matt. For a muslim, Islam is not just a way of worship, its a way of life. Those who are grounded in the ways of muhammad (pbuh) = sunnah of muhammad (pbuh) only they have true success. - Now, I know this can turn into a huge debate if your concept of the sunnah is not in line with the real sunnah, and perhaps that is where our real difference lies.


Originally posted by Matt Browne

Mainstream Muslims should stop making supremacy claims ('we are the best people, we are better than everyone else').Frequent thoughts of the US being superior to all other countries poisons American brains and damages the relationship between America and the rest of the world.Frequent thoughts of Islam being superior to all other religions


Muslims are not the best people. Like all followers of a religion, muslims make mistakes and fall off the high road which is Islam.
However, I dont know any believer of any faith who would not call their faith as the best, in the sense of it being the most accurate and THE way to salvation.

If I thought salvation could be achieved thru Judaism, christianity, sikhism, hinduism as well as Islam - I would not mind being a Jew on Monday, a christian on tuesday, a sikh on wednesday and so on ...
sorry Matt, but I do think salvation is ONLY thru Islam thus Im going to be a muslim 24/7. I cannot call other religions as equally good enough for delivering me safe in afterlife.


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 6:16am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by Matt Browne



You seem to be promoting a Rasulullah Islam, which is somewhat different from Sunni or Shia Islam. I tried to understand your view, which is available here http://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdf - http://epubco.com/samples/978-1-62212-637-8Sample.pdf but found it very complicated.



Matt,
I'd respond to your post to me in detail when I have more time than right now.
Just wanted to clarify a small issue in your post of Friendship.

RasuluAllah means 'Rasul of Allah' or Messenger of Allah.

It is the title of Muhammad (pbuh). Its not any particular form of Islam.

Peace to you.


Thanks for the clarification, Nausheen. I wanted to come up with a name, because I have the impression that Friendship's religious views differ from standard Sunni Islam in certain way. Because he seems to emphasize RasuluAllah/'Rasul of Allah' I used that term. I'm not aware of any other official name. Maybe it's similar to Sufism. When you say it's not a particular form of Islam, why do several Muslims disagree with Friendship's views?



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 6:18am
Friendship, in your view, did Muhammad talk about the people of the book?



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 6:20am
Nausheen, see below.


-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:07am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Im glad to have provoked your intelligence by my statements. It does not matter how you consider me. However, if you were to let your message across, it does matter how you present it.
Are you aiming only the 'intelligent' and 'educated' audience among the muslims when you want to talk to them about progress? If that is the case, Irshad Manji will probably sell. As for the 'intellectually bankrupt' - we see things differently.


I wanted to justify my surprise about your statement 'can't be our teacher because'. That's all. I didn't expect your reply and was surprised. A lot of less educated people also embrace progress as well. And there are well educated people who are against progress and brush their teeth like Prophet Muhammad did, even though modern tooth brushes are better.

Originally posted by Nausheen

I did not say she was wrong. Perhaps I was not very clear - I will not even take the trouble to go out of the way - buy a book by her and read in order to know/learn what muslims should do for progress. The reason is I doubt her mantra to progress because I have qualms about she having best interest of muslims at heart. People like her call muslims backward because they do not condone lesbianism. For our progressivness we do need to condone her personal choices. If people are calling her an outcast or doubting her being a muslim, she has a right to cry out and a right to be heard - because she is a muslim as long as she does not declare herself a disbeliever in faith. As for her judgemments about sharia and quran ...


I am convinced that she has the best interest for all Muslims. Islam has no future in the 21st century when Muslims want to recreate 7th-century Arabia. She refuses to join an army of automatons in the name of Allah. She argues against the inferior treatment of women in Islam, the Jew-bashing that so many Muslims persistently engage in, the continuing scourge of slavery in countries ruled by Islamic regimes, the literalist readings of the Quran, and she aims at rediscovering the lost traditions of critical thinking called Ijtihad.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Im a scientist and I studied secular sciences from non-muslim teachers. I dont call them wrong about their opinion in science because of their faith - since the two are not connected. However, progress for muslims has a subtle connection with ones personal choice that defies the laws of islam. I dont mind dining with Manji because that has nothing to do with her personal choice, but I do mind taking tips for social and personal improvement from her, because I don't see her as a person of sound judgement. She herself is in need of help. Ive read testimonies from ex-homosexuals saying that its possible to fight this urge and start feeling normal. A person of sound judgement acknowledges/understands the need to fight the urges that disobey the laws of God. If they don't they still have a right to exist and a right to talk, but they often lose 'appeal' about social reforms (at least for the intellectually bankrupt).


As a scientist you should know that homosexuality is a normal human condition rooted in the biology of the human brain. But let's not focus on this here, it's a huge topic that would require a new Islamicity thread.

One of the Islamic laws of God is Ijtihad. Muslims who do not engage in critical thinking violate the laws of God. And for some verses in the Qur'an we need a lot of critical thinking, like "God has cursed the Jews, transforming them into apes and swine and those who serve the devil." [Qur'an 5:60]

Originally posted by Nausheen

Slavery was not a muslim tradition. It was there in Arab culture before Islam - it was worth removing thus Islam gives extremely high incentives for removing it. It could not be removed overnight - there were social and economic reasons behind that, thus Islam aimed at removing it gradually. I don't know of slaves in today's times, honestly my general knowledge is poor - would you please enlighten me on this. Thank you.


You are right. It existed before Islam. But in some verses the Qu'ran allows slavery, even sex with female slaves. "Also forbidden are women already married, except slave girls (those whom your right hands possess). Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement has been determined, there is no sin on you." [Qur'an 4:24]. Again, as religions evolve, such practices are no longer seen as appropriate.

Originally posted by Nausheen

'Discrimination against women?' I dont think my definition of discrimination is same as yours. If you want to discuss this on a separate thread you are most welcome. 'Discrimination against homosexuals' I don't really understand what you mean. You see, I come from India and the word 'discrimination' largely speaks about how the 'shudras' were treated in indian society. They were treated as untouchables etc ... so my understanding could be largely flawed unless you explain further.


"And those wives whose refractoriness you fear, exhort them, and avoid them in beds, and beat them; but if they obey you, seek not a way against them; verily Allah is ever Lofty and Grand." [Qur'an 4:34].

There's also the issue of female witnesses in an Islamic court. Yes, let's have a new thread for this.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Are you saying that islam is not the fastest growing religion 'after' the golden age?


No, it is not. It's a common misconception. In reality Islam is a shrinking religion. Christians leave the church and become atheists. They no longer count as Christians. Muslims cannot leave Islam. When they become atheists they have to keep this a secret. Otherwise they might be killed. Fewer people are new Muslims compared to the rising number of Muslims in name only. In Europe Christianity is shrinking as well. In China it's rising.

Originally posted by Nausheen

What do you mean by 'embrace the secular model'? Are you suggesting we discard the ways of Muhammad (pbuh) and become progressive as the west? In other words you are saying we must leave a portion of Islam to become progressive. We cannot Matt. For a muslim, Islam is not just a way of worship, its a way of life. Those who are grounded in the ways of muhammad (pbuh) = sunnah of muhammad (pbuh) only they have true success. - Now, I know this can turn into a huge debate if your concept of the sunnah is not in line with the real sunnah, and perhaps that is where our real difference lies.


Embracing the secular model means that the laws of a country are made by the people and for the people. And they can be changed by the people. A country gives all people the right to choose their religion, change their religion or choose not to believe in God. Muslims can choose to follow the way of Muhammad as long as the way does not violate any of the country's laws. Wife beating is not allowed. Killing a Muslim who becomes a Christian is not allowed. Violence against gay people is not allowed. Calling Jews apes or swines is not allowed. Marrying more than one wife is not allowed. Cutting off the hands of a thief is not allowed. That's the secular model.

Originally posted by Nausheen

I do think salvation is ONLY thru Islam thus Im going to be a muslim 24/7. I cannot call other religions as equally good enough for delivering me safe in afterlife.


I have no problem with your saying that Islam is the best religion for you. I have a problem with saying that Islam or any other religion is the best religion for all humans. I have a problem with Islam wanting to rule the entire world. I have a problem with any claims of the one and only truth, especially for spiritual matters we can't verify with science or any other objective way. Beliefs are not the same as facts. I have a problem with religion forcing itself on people. I have no problem with multiple co-existing spiritual truths. There is your way. And there is my way. For me Christianity is the best way, but I completely understand that this does not apply to everyone.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt



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