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Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24420
Printed Date: 20 September 2014 at 4:59am


Topic: a question
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: a question
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 9:15pm
Do you think you are so different from me?
If so, how?



Replies:
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:12am
No, I don't. Genetically speaking, all 7 billion humans on Earth are almost identical. Take any group of 55 chimps and you will find more genetic diversity in such a group (counting DNA base pairs that differ).

Even men and women are almost the same, and 45 out of 46 chromosomes are the same. And even the X and Y chromosomes are not completely different.

We all are one big human family.

Muslims and Christians are not that different. We all believe in a higher power. We all believe that our lives have meaning and purpose. We share many prophets. In history our civilizations inspired each other. Today we use the same math formulas, the same web browsers, the same search engines and we all fill up our cars' tanks with the same gasoline. We all smile. We all are sad sometimes. We all love our children and try to protect them. We all dream. We all don't want to be alone. We all like to have friends. We all like to be respected as human beings.

The things that make us different pale in comparison to what we all have in common.


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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 6:33am
Oh, boy!  When trolls are intentionally vague; know that something annoying will follow.


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 8:52am
You can be the judge for yourself:

49:13 (Y. Ali) O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
tnc


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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:18pm
I don't know your way of life, but I will shed bit of mine here and therefore I would never know our differences.

1.
I made a pledge to my neighbors that their property, their tranquility and their beings are safe from me. I never step into other people property without their permission unless it is emergency situation, which hasn't happened yet.

2.
I don't take gifts, material assistance from others or accept inheritance. Twice I declined the inheritance share in cash and the sums were divided among my siblings. I live only to give to those in need, not taking. This step is copied from the Prophet Muhammad life where he did not take zakat money, but accept gifts. I just took step further than him by includes the inheritance.

3.
I can't distinguished between masters and slaves, the rich and the poor, the strong and the weak. To me they all look the same. This is not new though I have it since I was a kid. But for some reason I am very respectful to the elders regardless who they are, this too seem rooted in my gene.

4.
I hate bullies right to the core, they are the terrorist in it's truest form. This too look like in the gene.



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 05 December 2012 at 8:43pm
Greetings CaringHeart,

Im not sure in what sense you are asking.
If you were to take blood transfussion, you cannot take it from any donor unless your blood group is AB.

If you need an organ transplant you will need a lot more matches to consider than just the blood group.

Spiritually every human has a special different rank with Allah, and He only knows the secrets of that.

If you talk about culture, then you are american and I am Indian and I am well aware of the cultural differences.

If you talk about mental ability, the IQ scores can tell about that

so on and so forth...

what exactly is that you wanna compare.


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Do you think you are so different from me?If so, how?



Caringheart,
Allah ho Alim, only Allah knows. I know me to some degree, I do not know you. You know yourself to some degree, you do not know me. Thus the answer may not be true, only thinking, a guess!
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by nothing

I don't know your way of life, but I will shed bit of mine here and therefore I would never know our differences.1. I made a pledge to my neighbors that their property, their tranquility and their beings are safe from me. I never step into other people property without their permission unless it is emergency situation, which hasn't happened yet.2. I don't take gifts, material assistance from others or accept inheritance. Twice I declined the inheritance share in cash and the sums were divided among my siblings. I live only to give to those in need, not taking. This step is copied from the Prophet Muhammad life where he did not take zakat money, but accept gifts. I just took step further than him by includes the inheritance. 3. I can't distinguished between masters and slaves, the rich and the poor, the strong and the weak. To me they all look the same. This is not new though I have it since I was a kid. But for some reason I am very respectful to the elders regardless who they are, this too seem rooted in my gene.4. I hate bullies right to the core, they are the terrorist in it's truest form. This too look like in the gene.

I can say I am a lot like you, and hope to excel, Inshahallah.

Jazakallah,
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 7:50pm
Bismillah,
Assalamualaikum Hasan and Nothing,

I found it a bit odd in your posts, if you don't mind, why do you refuse gifts?

My Shaykh insists one to take gifts and thank people much for the same. He rests this practice on the fact that 'one who does not thank people has not thanked Allah'

After having understood this concept, its never a burden on the heart while accepting gifts, rather I make it a point to make a very big deal of any gift received from anyone - thanking that person much.




-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 December 2012 at 5:05pm
W'salam Nausheen,
I am not sure if I understand your question, please be clear.
Jazakallah,
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 December 2012 at 5:06pm
Greetings Nausheen,
You always make me smile...
your comment on blood transfusion... lol
I guess I just wanted to see what answers... whatever would pop into anyone's mind in response to the question.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 09 December 2012 at 6:57pm
Assalamualaikum Hassan,

In his post Nothing said he does not take gifts from others.
Then, in your post you are saying you are very much like him.

So my question to both of you is, why do you guys do not take gifts?



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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 1:15pm
W'salam Nausheen,
I think I said "petty much like Nothing", not exactly .
I do give and take gifts, so yes that is a difference. But like Nothing, I gave my share of my parent's property to my eldest brother, and I did not have any property of my own then.
Hasan [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" />

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Bismillah,
Assalamualaikum Hasan and Nothing,

I found it a bit odd in your posts, if you don't mind, why do you refuse gifts?

My Shaykh insists one to take gifts and thank people much for the same. He rests this practice on the fact that 'one who does not thank people has not thanked Allah

A gift is only to be given to those in needs, up to this moment I am not in need, alhamdulillah.
If you, Nausheen, you were a minister with portfolio and a bussinessman came to you with a gift, you know with certainty that that is not a gift. On the opposite side if you are a business woman giving a gift to a politician than you know than it is not a gift either. It is a well known practice to smoothen the bumpy road, and bypassing them in the queue.

But there is another one different. Last week I picked my daughter from school and I asked her what she learned that day? and she said "Islamic Art". And she pulled a board from her bag with the word Allah on it, and she said "I made this for you". If I were to give that piece to anyone no one would take it, it is a worthless piece for anyone. I hug her and I hug the board, and it is on the wall now. See the difference?

I am sorry to disagree with the Sheikh, my experience and my observation tell me it is a bribe.

Was salaamu alaikum.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 12:52am
Originally posted by nothing


Originally posted by Nausheen

Bismillah,
Assalamualaikum Hasan and Nothing,

I found it a bit odd in your posts, if you don't mind, why do you refuse gifts?

My Shaykh insists one to take gifts and thank people much for the same. He rests this practice on the fact that 'one who does not thank people has not thanked Allah
A gift is only to be given to those in needs, up to this moment I am not in need, alhamdulillah. If you, Nausheen, you were a minister with portfolio and a bussinessman came to you with a gift, you know with certainty that that is not a gift. On the opposite side if you are a business woman giving a gift to a politician than you know than it is not a gift either. It is a well known practice to smoothen the bumpy road, and bypassing them in the<span ="hw "><span =" "> queue</span></span>. But there is another one different. Last week I picked my daughter from school and I asked her what she learned that day? and she said "Islamic Art". And she pulled a board from her bag with the word Allah on it, and she said "I made this for you". If I were to give that piece to anyone no one would take it, it is a worthless piece for anyone. I hug her and I hug the board, and it is on the wall now. See the difference? I am sorry to disagree with the Sheikh, my experience and my observation tell me it is a bribe. Was salaamu alaikum.



Thank you Nothing.
I wouldn't call a bribe gift, nor would understand bribe when a gift is mentioned.

I do see the difference.
A gift is something prepared with care for the special person in mind - and when such a person offers me something, I can see the emotions that have gone into it.
On some occasions I have given small tokens as a sign of friendship and ppl have accepted it saying its not the value rather the sentiment that matters ... to me a 'gift'is always something which carries sentiments.

The shaykh does not promote exchange of bribes - calling it a gift is a misnomer and disregard of sentiments a gift carries.

jazak Allahu khair.


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:32pm
Hi all,

no human has my fingerprints.I am unique.So yes i am not the same as you people.Anyone the same as me?????

Come on Caringheart,our thinking is not the same our color is not the same our nation is not the same our tribe is not the same our children are not the same.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 3:05pm
Greetings Ismael,
Welcome back.

Are we not all of us (on this forum at least) seeking after God?
You see, I don't think we are that different. Smile

Caringheart


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 8:40pm
Hi caringheart,

thank you for the welcome

Are we not all of us (on this forum at least) seeking after God?
Some are and some are not.
most are here as missionaries trying to Bible thump instead of here to learn.
Ismail


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 12:26am
Originally posted by iec786

Hi caringheart,

thank you for the welcome

Are we not all of us (on this forum at least) seeking after God?
Some are and some are not.
most are here as missionaries trying to Bible thump instead of here to learn.
Ismail


or Qur'an thump?
I have a much more positive attitude.  I think we are here because we are all seeking to follow God.
I am here because I want us to understand each other.

Salaam,
CH

You're welcome for the welcome Smile ...  happy to know you made it safely there and back.  You were away a long time.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 04 April 2013 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by nothing

Originally posted by Nausheen

Bismillah,
Assalamualaikum Hasan and Nothing,

I found it a bit odd in your posts, if you don't mind, why do you refuse gifts?

My Shaykh insists one to take gifts and thank people much for the same. He rests this practice on the fact that 'one who does not thank people has not thanked Allah

A gift is only to be given to those in needs, up to this moment I am not in need, alhamdulillah.
If you, Nausheen, you were a minister with portfolio and a bussinessman came to you with a gift, you know with certainty that that is not a gift. On the opposite side if you are a business woman giving a gift to a politician than you know than it is not a gift either. It is a well known practice to smoothen the bumpy road, and bypassing them in the queue.

But there is another one different. Last week I picked my daughter from school and I asked her what she learned that day? and she said "Islamic Art". And she pulled a board from her bag with the word Allah on it, and she said "I made this for you". If I were to give that piece to anyone no one would take it, it is a worthless piece for anyone. I hug her and I hug the board, and it is on the wall now. See the difference?

I am sorry to disagree with the Sheikh, my experience and my observation tell me it is a bribe.

Was salaamu alaikum.

Assalamo Alaik nothing,

Jazak Allahu Khairun brother. That's very educational and food for thought. You make perfect sense.


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الله


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 2:32pm
Salam,
I always thought that giving gifts was a good things, it increases love. I still do, I do believe it is a good thing and in Islam we are encouraged to do good.
Here is website or two that I found about gift giving:


%20 - http://www.dalail.co.uk/gifts.htm

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/85108


Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 16 September 2013 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Do you think you are so different from me?If so, how?



Hi Caringheart,

An answer to your question Yes i am different.You see you are born in sin and need someone else to die for you and redeem you off your sin.Me no problems i was born innocent so i do not need anyone to dia for me innocent.God forbid that i commit a sin i get on my knees and beg Allah for forgiveness and he is oft forgiving what a God did not have to kill anyone for me.
greetings
Ismail.
ps:i know it was an old post but i could not resist.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 September 2013 at 1:37am
Originally posted by iec786

Originally posted by Caringheart

Do you think you are so different from me?If so, how?



Hi Caringheart,

An answer to your question Yes i am different.You see you are born in sin and need someone else to die for you and redeem you off your sin.Me no problems i was born innocent so i do not need anyone to dia for me innocent.God forbid that i commit a sin i get on my knees and beg Allah for forgiveness and he is oft forgiving what a God did not have to kill anyone for me.
greetings
Ismail.
ps:i know it was an old post but i could not resist.


Greetings Ismail,

Well then you see, we are not different. Smile
If I commit a sin I too get on my knees and ask for God's forgiveness,
but more importantly, I repent.
Out of my great Love for Him, because of His great Love for me, I turn away and do not repeat my sin, and I am only able to do that with the Grace of God which I received through Yahshua.

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 24 September 2013 at 7:43am
Hi sister Caringheart,
Why did you refrain from the original sin storey?
Were you born in sin as the Bible says or would you be born innocent as the Quraan says?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2013 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by iec786

Hi sister Caringheart,
Why did you refrain from the original sin storey?
Were you born in sin as the Bible says or would you be born innocent as the Quraan says?

Greetings ismail,

Does it matter?
Yes, I believe we are born with original sin... it is obvious in our nature and our attraction to doing sinful things.

Paul had these wise words that I truly think we all can relate to:
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

But with God all things are possible.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

But does it matter that I believe we are born with this sin nature,
or that you believe we are not born with this sin nature?


Either way, we are the same...
We must turn to God to escape from sin.
We both believe in turning to God and asking forgiveness,
the only difference is that, when I turn to God, I repent and gain the strength through the Love of my Lord, to turn away from future sin, so that I do not go on sinning and go on asking for the same forgiveness again and again. 
6 What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in acceptance of His death, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 Knowing this, then, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law[of sin], but under grace.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Note:  scriptures with emphasis added by me for additional clarity and understanding... I refer to KJV as well as NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

I receive the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome, when I confess and repent.  Do you also?

Salaam and blessings,
CLynn



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 29 September 2013 at 11:06am
Hi sister Caringheart,
I came across this verse and thought how does it fits with Paul's teaching of just believe and all is well.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

It seems paul just nailed the teaching of the Old Testament to the cross.

Peace to you and your family.
Ismail


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 22 November 2013 at 10:51am
Hi iec,

Quote from Ezekiel 18:20.
It seems Paul just nailed the teaching of the Old Testament to the cross.

Response: --- You need to read the full context of the “Righteousness of God” in Ezekiel 18:
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

--- One of the original laws said in Numbers 14:
18 ‘The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’
--- (Often the sins of the fathers influenced their children to continue in their path, and it would continue till there was a decided turning again to God.)

Ezekiel was written after Jeremiah where God prophesied through him, the New Covenant, in Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

--- And this prophesy was fulfilled in the coming of Jesus Christ, as written in Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

--- Jesus introduced the Holy Spirit which indwelt Him through His life on earth, and was conferred on the Apostles and disciples on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2), after His ascension.
This indwelling Holy Spirit is given to believing Christians, who then have “The laws of God in their minds and written on their hearts.”

Paul was simply preaching what God did and what Jesus taught about following Him, as He said in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Placid


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 02 December 2013 at 12:33pm
Hi Placid,

Response: --- You need to read the full context of the “Righteousness of God” in Ezekiel 18:
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

This is exactly what i am telling you.The fairytale of Jesus died on the cross so all are saved by the blood and gore of Jesus,the other fancy word that paul came up with is We are saved through grace.What a load of baloney.Back to the quote

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.If you repent you will be forgiven.Not because someone died on the cross.This was Paul nailing the law to the cross.





Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 03 December 2013 at 1:59pm
Hi iec,

Quote: This is exactly what i am telling you.The fairytale of Jesus died on the cross so all are saved by the blood and gore of Jesus,the other fancy word that paul came up with is We are saved through grace.What a load of baloney.Back to the quote
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.If you repent you will be forgiven.Not because someone died on the cross.This was Paul nailing the law to the cross.

Response: --- Verse 18 is from the OT where men were judged by their works according to the Law. When the Jews defied the law so that not many of them were following it, or being saved, --- as I said in the Post, God gave a “New Covenant,” which replaced the OT laws except for the Ten Commandments, which is a ‘Code of Ethics,’ or ‘Criterion of right and wrong,’ --- for all generations.
In the New Covenant God said, “I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

You are wrong to think that Paul changed anything or invented new words.
The word ‘grace’ was introduced with Jesus, as it says in John 1:
17 “For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”
--- Jesus had to die before He could be resurrected. --- Also the OT law said that “Without the shedding of blood there was no remission (forgiveness).”
You may not understand this but that is why there were animal sacrifices all through the OT. --- Since Jesus rose from death, He made it possible that those who believe in God and accept His sacrifice for sin, CAN be saved. --- However, only those who commit their way unto God and believe in Jesus and follow Him will know this benefit. --- It says in Surah 3:
50 --- “So keep your duty to Allah and obey Me.
51 Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord so worship Him. That is a Straight path.”

Let’s look at how Paul explains it to the Church of the Ephesians 2:
8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

This is speaking to believers and explaining to them the Gift of grace:
8 For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. (A gift cannot be paid for, or it is not a gift.)
9 Not of works (not of anything we have done), lest anyone should boast.
10 For we (believers) are His workmanship (workers or servants), created in Christ Jesus (re-created, or ‘born again’ by the Spirit of God) for good works --- (this becomes the believer’s lifestyle after his conversion, to do God's good works),
--- ‘which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.’

God has a life pattern for us to follow in doing the ‘good works’ that we are to do for Him.
--- This is also what it says in the Quran, we must have faith in God, before we do ‘good works’ for Him, does it not?
It says some 60 times, “Believe and do good works.” --- Without believing in God, ‘good works’ are just good works. --- (Are these a few more goads?)

Placid


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 04 December 2013 at 10:02pm
Hi Placid,


Response: --- Verse 18 is from the OT where men were judged by their works according to the Law. When the Jews defied the law so that not many of them were following it, or being saved, --- as I said in the Post, God gave a “New Covenant,” which replaced the OT laws

So we can now remove the OT because God gave a “New Covenant,” which replaced the OT laws So out with the old and in with the new.My question to you is why are you holding the old testament in your Bible?

quote
In the New Covenant God said, “I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

God said????God said nothing.


8 For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. (A gift cannot be paid for, or it is not a gift.)


Lollll come now Placid i am sure you can do better then that.

King James Bible
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.Matthew 12:36
I will let you explain


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 09 December 2013 at 7:12am
Hi iec,

Quote: So we can now remove the OT because God gave a “New Covenant,” which replaced the OT laws So out with the old and in with the new. My question to you is why are you holding the old testament in your Bible?

Response: --- The OT records the beginnings and the History of the Jews, who were God's chosen people. It follows them through good and bad, and gave the promise that they would be revived in the Last Day.

The OT contains all the prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus and the NT.

--- (I see that your last post was on December 4,2013, at 10:02 pm. --- So the New Covenant started with the birth of Jesus --- about year 1.)
Even the Calendar started over with the coming of Jesus.

I guess you don't understand a New Covenant with God, who sent Jesus to introduce the "Gift" of Salvation through Faith. --- That is what "Grace" is.

It gives the fulfillment of this Prophecy in Hebrews 8:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

--- What was made obsolete were the laws given to the Jews for their discipline and obedience. --- What was retained for every Generation was the Code of Ethics "The Ten Commandments," which are referred to in the Quran as the "Criterion of right and wrong, given to Moses and Aaron. 2:53, 2:185, 3:4, 21:48, 25:1.



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 December 2013 at 10:10am
I see that ICE786 has presented a very strong case against original sin theory. Great job, may Allah reward you for your efforts to show the truth to those who seek it.
I will add this verse which I think also goes against the original sin theory or claim. "Becoming like little children, sinless":
"King James Bible. Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Aponderette
Date Posted: 10 December 2013 at 1:01pm
Such issues to me are insignificant in the big picture. If you look at the teachings of the Quran and the message of Jesus they are very similar. Love the only God above all other duties and care for your fellow man. For most of us, those two commands are difficult enough to maintain without trying to figure out all the rest.

As for original sin: My understanding is that sin is in the heart and only Allah knows our hearts. I cannot imagine that there would be anything in a newborn's heart that could be considered sinful.

As to the original question... We are all uniquely created, have unique experiences and view the world in a unique way.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 11 December 2013 at 11:27am
Hi Hasan,

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the story of ‘original sin‘ is found in Surah 7:
21 And he (Satan) swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them:

--- (The first penalty from the fall was that they became 'mortal' bodies that would live, go through the aging process and then die, --- whereas, had they not sinned they would have lived forever in the Paradise of God.)
--- (Secondly, they lost their relationship with God and had to ‘repent of sin’ to come back into His presence.
“If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost” --- And this lost position is where natural man is until he repents before God and asks for forgiveness, --- is that not right?)
--- (Thirdly, they were no longer in harmony, but “with enmity between yourselves.” --- They were now individuals with different thoughts and desires, as all humans are. --- Have you noticed any ‘enmity’ in the world today? --- Then people are just acting human, are they not?)
--- (Fourthly, they had to work for their livelihood rather than piking their food off of the trees.)

The ‘original sin’ was, that they listened to Satan and believed his word against the commandment of God. --- Their ‘original sin’ cost them their home in Paradise where their offspring might all have been ‘angels,’ --- instead of humans in our struggle for life down here on planet earth.
--- And this is where, because of this ‘sin of disobedience’ of Adam and Eve, all people born of two parents on earth are born ‘out of fellowship with God,’ or born with a sinful nature, --- Is that not right?
--- You don’t have to teach a child to lie, you have to teach him to tell the truth.
However, little children who die before the age of accountability are taken to God, --- but when children grow up with their sin nature, they are responsible before God like any other adult.

In making reference to this verse, The key word is CONVERTED in Matthew 18:
3 “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are CONVERTED and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
If you read Matthew 5: 1-16, you will understand what ‘conversion’ means.

Placid


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 December 2013 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Hasan,
--- And this is where, because of this ‘sin of disobedience’ of Adam and Eve, all people born of two parents on earth are born ‘out of fellowship with God,’ or born with a sinful nature, --- Is that not right?
Placid

Greetings Placid,
You mean, 'outside of fellowship with God', right?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 2:02pm
Hi Caringheart,

Yes, thank you, --- I do mean that we were all born 'outside' of fellowship with God



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 December 2013 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Hasan,

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the story of ‘original sin‘ is found in Surah 7:
21 And he (Satan) swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them:

--- (The first penalty from the fall was that they became 'mortal' bodies that would live, go through the aging process and then die, --- whereas, had they not sinned they would have lived forever in the Paradise of God.)
--- (Secondly, they lost their relationship with God and had to ‘repent of sin’ to come back into His presence.
“If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost” --- And this lost position is where natural man is until he repents before God and asks for forgiveness, --- is that not right?)
--- (Thirdly, they were no longer in harmony, but “with enmity between yourselves.” --- They were now individuals with different thoughts and desires, as all humans are. --- Have you noticed any ‘enmity’ in the world today? --- Then people are just acting human, are they not?)
--- (Fourthly, they had to work for their livelihood rather than piking their food off of the trees.)

The ‘original sin’ was, that they listened to Satan and believed his word against the commandment of God. --- Their ‘original sin’ cost them their home in Paradise where their offspring might all have been ‘angels,’ --- instead of humans in our struggle for life down here on planet earth.
--- And this is where, because of this ‘sin of disobedience’ of Adam and Eve, all people born of two parents on earth are born ‘out of fellowship with God,’ or born with a sinful nature, --- Is that not right?
--- You don’t have to teach a child to lie, you have to teach him to tell the truth.
However, little children who die before the age of accountability are taken to God, --- but when children grow up with their sin nature, they are responsible before God like any other adult.

In making reference to this verse, The key word is CONVERTED in Matthew 18:
3 “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are CONVERTED and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
If you read Matthew 5: 1-16, you will understand what ‘conversion’ means.

Placid


Placid,
dear you answered your own objection when you wrote:
"However, little children who die before the age of accountability are taken to God, --- but when children grow up with their sin nature, they are responsible before God like any other adult"
So there you are clear that until the age of growing to know sin if they die they go to heaven or taken to God as you said.
The sin was not humanity's, it was Adam and Eve's sin, and upon seeking God's forgiveness God Almighty the only one who can forgive, forgave them:
[ 2:37 ] "Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful."
In a likely manner any person who will disobey God will be in loss, unless he/she seeks God's forgiveness while in this life and after that obeys God, will find God forgiving and Merciful, according to the Quran.
It is now up to you the individual to whom this knowledge has come to act, to seek, to yourself from the day when your own tongue will testify against yourself.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 16 December 2013 at 7:38am
Hi Hasan,

Quote: "In a likely manner any person who will disobey God will be in loss, unless he/she seeks God's forgiveness while in this life and after that obeys God, will find God forgiving and Merciful, according to the Quran.
It is now up to you the individual to whom this knowledge has come to act, to seek, to yourself from the day when your own tongue will testify against yourself.

Response: --- That is right. It was the result of the offence of Adam and Eve that sin came and so as 'Children of Adam' we have the same nature as he had after the sin. --- So they repented before God, and so must we. --- Is that not right?

Surah 7 records what is called the 'Original Sin,' the same as in Genesis 3. --- If you have another name for it or call it "Guilt before God," it amounts to the same thing, does it not? --- We have to repent, ask God's forgiveness, and believe in Him, to come back into His favor, do we not?



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Hasan,

Quote: "In a likely manner any person who will disobey God will be in loss, unless he/she seeks God's forgiveness while in this life and after that obeys God, will find God forgiving and Merciful, according to the Quran.
It is now up to you the individual to whom this knowledge has come to act, to seek, to yourself from the day when your own tongue will testify against yourself.

Response: --- That is right. It was the result of the offence of Adam and Eve that sin came and so as 'Children of Adam' we have the same nature as he had after the sin. --- So they repented before God, and so must we. --- Is that not right?

Surah 7 records what is called the 'Original Sin,' the same as in Genesis 3. --- If you have another name for it or call it "Guilt before God," it amounts to the same thing, does it not? --- We have to repent, ask God's forgiveness, and believe in Him, to come back into His favor, do we not?



Placid,
that is 100% correct, and that is my point. We do sin knowingly and unknowingly, and thus we are told to stay away from committing sins. And to ask for God's forgiveness often. Each one carry their own sins. You will not be questioned what sins you grandfather, or your brother or your mother did, or for the matter, you will not be questioned what sins Adam or Eve did.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 18 December 2013 at 10:17am
Originally posted by honeto

I see that ICE786 has presented a very strong case against original sin theory. Great job, may Allah reward you for your efforts to show the truth to those who seek it.
I will add this verse which I think also goes against the original sin theory or claim. "Becoming like little children, sinless":
"King James Bible. Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Hasan




Jazakallah-kairen for the duas.



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