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I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387
Printed Date: 20 December 2014 at 4:24am


Topic: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: I NEED TRUE BELIEVERS IN JESUS
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:37pm
MARK 16;15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"




i am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.



Replies:
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 4:49pm
This is a great topic.  Ironically, Mark 16:15 is part of a later addition to the Gospel of Mark.  According to scholars, the earliest manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark ended with verse 8!  The NIV states this fact clearly:

"The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2016&version=NIV - [1]

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 8:29pm
I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural.
There are those, however, still today, who are known to be healers by the 'laying on of hands', and I understand that people 'speak in tongues' in the Pentacostal churches.(It is one of the reasons a friend of my daughters left the Pentacostal church, and sought another denomination, once she was grown and on her own. She was never comfortable with the whole speaking in tongues thing.) 
Healings and miracles are said happen far more often in the less developed countries where minds are still open to belief.  I have heard of people that have seen miracles in the lesser developed countries.
I myself say that I have had miracles in my life, but I can not prove them to anyone.  One has to be open to believing.
I am undecided about the whole laying on of hands because it is in the Bible, but it is also in the Bible to have nothing to do with necromancers.  How does one determine if the healing or miracle is from God or from sorcery?


Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 3:43am
i am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

This is a great topic. Ironically, Mark 16:15 is part of a later addition to the Gospel of Mark. According to scholars, the earliest manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark ended with verse 8! The NIV states this fact clearly: "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20." [1]

When Mark fled Rome as Nero persecuted the Christians, and killed Peter, whose teaching of the Injeel is what Mark converted into a life of Jesus, eventually the Presbyter or Elder Aristion in Rome wrote a postscript for completeness. He cites Jesus giving the Great Commission to spread the Injeel. (That's the good news.)

Picking up snakes and drinking deadly poison is a reference to casting out demons, to do with spiritual warfare. Jesus earlier on in Luke refers to this: "The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He replied, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." (Luke 10:18-20)

So compare this with Aristion's account in Mark 16:17-18. You will realise that this refers to spiritual warfare. And yet it is also a prophecy of a physical miracle which the Apostle Paul fulfilled. (See Acts 28:3-5) Paul had a viper which bit him while he was gathering fire-wood in Malta and which stuck to him. The people, knowing he was a passenger oon a recently wrecked prison ship, thought he was going to di as an evil criminal, and were amazed when he did not even swell up. Paul simply shook off the snake. (This is the basis of the foolish snake-handling sect, who miss the point of Jesus' words and the unique miracle of Paul.) Are there people who can do the things Jesus speaks of in Aristion's notes at the end of Mark's Gospel? Sure there are. I have many missionary books to do with spiritual warfare in South America where previously sceptical missionaries realised God had gifted them with the ability to cast out demons, and many miracles, including the raising of the dead in places like India, occur.

I will take time to gather the information for you so you can check this out in a later posting, I don't have immediate access tot he information right this moment. However, let's be clear. Jesus taught a story about the Rich Man and Lazarus. Here is what happened when the Rich Man, after death, was in tormentin Hell. He had a discussion with Abraham who from Paradise could communicate with him. The Rich Man said to Abraham, "Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them." "No, father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent." He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." (Luke 16:27-31) Jesus is clear. The Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, with its many prophecies about Jesus, should be enough for you, even without going into the New Testament. Jesus also said this, "Why then do you accues me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I in the Father." (John 10:36-38)


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 12:26pm
I think, based in its tradition of revisions, the Bible is overdue for a major revision. Let us see what is taken out and what is brought in. I will reserve a copy in advance.
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural.
There are those, however, still today, who are known to be healers by the 'laying on of hands', and I understand that people 'speak in tongues' in the Pentacostal churches.(It is one of the reasons a friend of my daughters left the Pentacostal church, and sought another denomination, once she was grown and on her own. She was never comfortable with the whole speaking in tongues thing.) 
Healings and miracles are said happen far more often in the less developed countries where minds are still open to belief.  I have heard of people that have seen miracles in the lesser developed countries.
I myself say that I have had miracles in my life, but I can not prove them to anyone.  One has to be open to believing.
I am undecided about the whole laying on of hands because it is in the Bible, but it is also in the Bible to have nothing to do with necromancers.  How does one determine if the healing or miracle is from God or from sorcery?


Caringheart, I don't think any Christian in any period, regardless of their faith level, could do the things described in Mark 16.  The reason is that verses 9-20 were not in the original.  They were added later.  As scholar Geza Vermes notes:

"Since the longer ending of Mark (Mark 16:9-20) is missing from the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus...its authenticity is generally rejected by scholars." (The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, p. 310)

Jesus did not utter these words.  That is why not a single Christian can live up to these high standards. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 4:55pm
Greetings Islamispeace,
 
Did you read and absorb my post at all?
There are people today who 'speak in tongues', and there are those who are able to do 'laying on of hands to heal'.  It happens in those places where people's minds are still open to belief in God rather than self.
The Apostle's did these things after Pentacost when the Holy spirit came to indwell them.
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

This was recorded in the acts of the Apostles.

Salaam,  CH


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 9:53am
Carinheart,
my wife's brother-in-law was a Pentecostal Pastor, who used to say that in their church people receive holy ghost and speak tongues. He dragged once my mother-in-law (an Evangelist Christian) visiting from Mexico to visit their church and see how great the experience is of catching the spirit. She described it as frightening as they prayed, jumped and finally rolled on the floor as if getting a seizure, mumbling she could not understand. That was it for her and would never go back again, she said. He ended up in a mental hospital. Thanks to my wife's sister, who somehow convinced the hospital, that he would be better off at home, as she want to take care of him rather to leave him there to get worse. Now he is better, dependent on heavy medication.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by honeto

Carinheart,
my wife's brother-in-law was a Pentecostal Pastor, who used to say that in their church people receive holy ghost and speak tongues. He dragged once my mother-in-law (an Evangelist Christian) visiting from Mexico to visit their church and see how great the experience is of catching the spirit. She described it as frightening as they prayed, jumped and finally rolled on the floor as if getting a seizure, mumbling she could not understand. That was it for her and would never go back again, she said. He ended up in a mental hospital. Thanks to my wife's sister, who somehow convinced the hospital, that he would be better off at home, as she want to take care of him rather to leave him there to get worse. Now he is better, dependent on heavy medication.
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

Did you read this part of what I wrote...

(It is one of the reasons a friend of my daughters left the Pentacostal church, and sought another denomination, once she was grown and on her own. She was never comfortable with the whole speaking in tongues thing.)

Let me also say that this girl is one of the strongest young people belonging to God that I know.

I mean, I'm with you, the whole speaking in tongues thing... I would not know what to make of it, but it is written about in the scriptures.

Here is my concern...  Jesus also drove out demons... so how would we know if this speaking in tongues is of a demon or from God...
In the time of the Apostle's they spoke in the languages so that all the people could understand, so I understand this would be from God, but if people are speaking what can not be understood... ?

So yeah, I don't have a way to reconcile that concept in scripture either.

It was also said that Muhammad went through similar things.  How do you reconcile that?  (This is a genuine question, not an attack, as there are things in all scripture that can be hard to reconcile with.  I always say that I 'wrestle with God' to the point of dislocating a joint... as Jacob did before God gave him his blessing and the name of Israel.  And I question God as Job did, and I am humbled to accept that I do not have the answers... I do not have the mind of God.  So I simply stay away from those things that do not seem that they could come from God, or things that could easily be used as a deception of the devil.  I pray that I will be one who 'runs a good race' and that I will hear the words, 'well done good and faithful servant'.)  I hope that my post from yesterday to Islamispeace on the topic would you kill a suckling, gets to post and that you will get to read it.

Hoping that you are well this day.
Salaam,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Islamispeace,
 
Did you read and absorb my post at all?
There are people today who 'speak in tongues', and there are those who are able to do 'laying on of hands to heal'.  It happens in those places where people's minds are still open to belief in God rather than self.
The Apostle's did these things after Pentacost when the Holy spirit came to indwell them.
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

This was recorded in the acts of the Apostles.

Salaam,  CH


Did you read and absorb my post?  The verses from Mark are NOT AUTHENTIC!  How then can any Christian think they can perform "miracles"?  The Book of Acts can make all sorts of claims, but the fact is that the earliest Gospel supposedly written (Mark) has forged verses in it talking about miraculous acts which no one can prove actually happened at the hands of any Christian.  Referring to other books in the New Testament is nothing but a circular argument.    

The reports you refer to of the so-called "healers" and people "speaking in tongues" is the result of charlatans playing on the gullibility of people who don't know any better.  You said yourself that there is no way to prove the claims of "miracles".  As such, your post is pointless.  Any charlatan can mumble some gibberish and gullible people will think he/she is "speaking in tongues". 

Let's see if these people can drink poison and still survive.  Why don't you ask them to ingest cyanide or strychnine?  I guarantee you that they will back down.  If anyone is foolish enough to actually try it, they will be dead in minutes.  This sort of foolishness is not the act of a God-fearing believer.      


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 2:02am
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart






Greetings Islamispeace,
 
Did you read and absorb my post at all?
There are people today who 'speak in tongues', and there are those who are able to do 'laying on of hands to heal'.  It happens in those places where people's minds are still open to belief in God rather than self.
The Apostle's did these things after Pentacost when the Holy spirit came to indwell them.
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

<span id="en-NIV-26955">5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26956">6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26957">7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?</span> <span id="en-NIV-26958">8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?</span> <span id="en-NIV-26959">9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,</span> <span id="en-NIV-26960">10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome</span> <span id="en-NIV-26961">11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”</span> <span id="en-NIV-26962">12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”</span>

This was recorded in the acts of the Apostles.

Salaam,  CH
Did you read and absorb my post?  The verses from Mark are NOT AUTHENTIC!  How then can any Christian think they can perform "miracles"?  The Book of Acts can make all sorts of claims, but the fact is that the earliest Gospel supposedly written (Mark) has forged verses in it talking about miraculous acts which no one can prove actually happened at the hands of any Christian.  Referring to other books in the New Testament is nothing but a circular argument.     The reports you refer to of the so-called "healers" and people "speaking in tongues" is the result of charlatans playing on the gullibility of people who don't know any better.  You said yourself that there is no way to prove the claims of "miracles".  As such, your post is pointless.  Any charlatan can mumble some gibberish and gullible people will think he/she is "speaking in tongues".  Let's see if these people can drink poison and still survive.  Why don't you ask them to ingest cyanide or strychnine?  I guarantee you that they will back down.  If anyone is foolish enough to actually try it, they will be dead in minutes.  This sort of foolishness is not the act of a God-fearing believer.      

bravo


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 08 December 2012 at 2:16pm
Caringheart,

Have you heard of any of these "healers" ingesting cyanide or strychnine?  What about the people "speaking in tongues"?  Would they still be speaking after drinking poison...or would they be like anyone else who st**idly drank poison (i.e. dead)?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 December 2012 at 7:09pm
Do you believe Muhammad actually took a midnight ride on a flying horse to Jerusalem?
Do you believe that Jesus spoke as an infant?
If you can believe these things why can you not believe that faith will allow miracles?


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Do you believe Muhammad actually took a midnight ride on a flying horse to Jerusalem?
Do you believe that Jesus spoke as an infant?
If you can believe these things why can you not believe that faith will allow miracles?


Another non-answer by Caringheart. 

I asked you a simple question.  Do you think if these charlatans who claim to have "healing" powers or who "speak in tongues" were to drink poison, such as cyanide, they would still survive?  Or would they gag and die like any person would.

Where are these "miracles"?  Can you provide any evidence of Christians being able to ingest poison and survive?  Is this stuff real or is it just Christian mumbo-jumbo? 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 4:10pm
Geez people,
Why do you make conversation so difficult.

My answer... which I stated, conversationally, at the outset...

"I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural."


Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:34am
Ignoring my post Islamispeace?  What Jesus says in Luke and what happened to Paul in Acts is not circular argumentation.  These provide context for Aristion's notes at the end of Mark's Gospel.  (Unfinished due to Nero's murder of Peter.)  So let's try again.  The reference to snakes and scorpions refers to Satan and his demons.  The poison therefore was spiritual.  The miracle of Paul surviving the snakebite in Malta was a pointer to the greater truth of Christians being equipped for spiritual warfare.  I'm amazed at the logic here.  Since you regard Mark 16:9-20 as a forgery (as opposed to being an epilogue written after Mark), you therefore conclude that any reference to Christians being given miraculous powers must be fake too, which is, frankly bizarre.  


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 5:02pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Geez people,
Why do you make conversation so difficult.

My answer... which I stated, conversationally, at the outset...

"I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural."


LOL Calm down, Caringheart!  Don't blow a gasket!

Your contradictions are showing again.  You see, in addition to claiming that the miraculous acts described in Mark were only performed during the times of the Apostles due to "the kind of belief it would take", you also said:

"There are people today who 'speak in tongues', and there are those who are able to do 'laying on of hands to heal'.  It happens in those places where people's minds are still open to belief in God rather than self."

Don't you realize when you are contradicting yourself? 

I asked you to prove your claim that these miracles still occur.  I am especially interested in proof of people being able to ingest poison and survive.

Your appeal to the Book of Acts does not prove anything.  It is a circular argument to appeal to the New Testament to prove the New Testament.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Ignoring my post Islamispeace?  What Jesus says in Luke and what happened to Paul in Acts is not circular argumentation.  These provide context for Aristion's notes at the end of Mark's Gospel.  (Unfinished due to Nero's murder of Peter.)  So let's try again.  The reference to snakes and scorpions refers to Satan and his demons.  The poison therefore was spiritual.  The miracle of Paul surviving the snakebite in Malta was a pointer to the greater truth of Christians being equipped for spiritual warfare.  I'm amazed at the logic here.  Since you regard Mark 16:9-20 as a forgery (as opposed to being an epilogue written after Mark), you therefore conclude that any reference to Christians being given miraculous powers must be fake too, which is, frankly bizarre.


As I said to Caringheart, appealing to the New Testament books to prove what the New Testament books say is a circular argument.  Also, there is no proof whatsoever that any of these "miracles" ever occurred or still do occur.  If you disagree, then you need to provide indisputable evidence, not the claims of the New Testament.  If I were to provide examples of Muhammad's (pbu) miracles from the Quran and Sunnah, would you accept them?  Why then would you expect non-Christians to accept the claims of the New Testament? 

So, yes, let's try again.  Here is what Mark 16 states:

"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

You claim that the part about drinking poison is "spiritual" but that is not what the text states.  Why is the ability to "drive out demons", and "speak in tongues" and "pick up snakes with their hands" literal but "drinking poison and surviving" is "spiritual"?  It's obvious that none of the disciples were able to perform this miracle, which explains why you are trying to establish that it wasn't meant to be "literal".

Regarding the authenticity of the last half of Mark 16, the proof is in the surviving manuscripts.  It was not part of the original, which is why it was not included in the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. 

And since it is a later addition, and not an authentic saying of Jesus (pbuh), then it would be a logical conclusion that Christians would not be able to perform those miracles.  If anything is "bizarre", it is your claim that a Christians can perform these miracles and yet you can't provide any evidence beyond what it written elsewhere in the New Testament. 

By the way, are you able to perform these "miracles".  I forgot to ask Caringheart, so I might as well ask you.  Do tell.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:18pm
Greetings islamispeace,

It is not contradiction, but qualification.
There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there.  I think I also stated the fact that I believe that God has performed miracles in my life, but no way to prove that to anyone.
I believe in the acts of the Apostles as recorded.  You believe in the quran, and there are strange things reported in that text also... but you believe.  I find more believable the accounts of many witnesses, who were there with Jesus as He spoke, as told through the generations.
I think I will leave you to discussion with Placid.  You seem to do better with him. Smile

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 13 December 2012 at 6:37pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

It is not contradiction, but qualification.
There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there.  I think I also stated the fact that I believe that God has performed miracles in my life, but no way to prove that to anyone.
I believe in the acts of the Apostles as recorded.  You believe in the quran, and there are strange things reported in that text also... but you believe.  I find more believable the accounts of many witnesses, who were there with Jesus as He spoke, as told through the generations.
I think I will leave you to discussion with Placid.  You seem to do better with him. Smile

Salaam,CH


Right, it's not "contradiction" but "qualification".  Umm...what?

You said that these "miracles" still occur in some parts of the world.  But, when I asked you for proof as well as whether these so-called "miracle-workers" would be willing to ingest cyanide, you got defensive and said that you stated that these miracles occurred in the time of the "Apostles" only.  Well, that's a contradiction, dear.  Embarrassed

Anyway, you still have not provided any evidence for these so-called "miracles".  The fact that there are "reports" does not mean anything.  There are "reports" of alien abductions, Bigfoot, Chupacabra and other mysterious occurrences.  Do you believe those as well, or would you require evidence?  That's what I am asking from you.  The evidence.  I am also asking you a hypothetical questions (since I don't think anyone is st**id enough to actually do it though I may be wrong) whether the "miracle-workers" you speak of can ingest poison and survive, in line with the promise of Mark 16.  For starters, can you at least tell us if you have heard "reports" of people inspired by Mark 16 to ingest poison and survive?  Please do tell!


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 6:29pm
Greetings islamispeace (?),

You are very good at twisting people's words.  It seems to be your main occupation.  Is it deliberate, or not?  I really can't say.
"you stated that these miracles occurred in the time of the "Apostles" only. "
I never said any such thing.  You must show me where you think I said this.

This is what I said, and I am quoting for the third time now.
"I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural."

You believe the 'reports' about Muhammad don't you though?
That an angel appeared to him in a cave.
That he took a midnight ride on a flying horse.
Even though these are reports he made of himself.

All we ever have are reports.  I tend to believe those testifying of things not to do with themselves but rather to do with things witnessed.

I can not report of my own miracles.  I would not expect to be believed. But if others report of witnessing the miracle...  Why should I not believe?

You are correct, all we ever have is what we choose to believe.  We must use for ourselves our own logic and decide for ourselves what is believable to us and what is not.  This is an individual thing.  It can not make one person wrong and another correct.  It only means that neither can know a thing for certain, and so all they have is their own belief.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,It is not contradiction, but qualification.There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there.  I think I also stated the fact that I believe that God has performed miracles in my life, but no way to prove that to anyone.I believe in the acts of the Apostles as recorded.  You believe in the quran, and there are strange things reported in that text also... but you believe.  I find more believable the accounts of many witnesses, who were there with Jesus as He spoke, as told through the generations.I think I will leave you to discussion with Placid.  You seem to do better with him. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Salaam,CH





Hi Caringheart,

Is miracles a test of your faith?
Did Jesus not give you a test?
New International Version (©1984)
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.

If false Christs and false prophets can do that then is miracles a test of your faith???? I don't think so.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,It is not contradiction, but qualification.There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there.  I think I also stated the fact that I believe that God has performed miracles in my life, but no way to prove that to anyone.I believe in the acts of the Apostles as recorded.  You believe in the quran, and there are strange things reported in that text also... but you believe.  I find more believable the accounts of many witnesses, who were there with Jesus as He spoke, as told through the generations.I think I will leave you to discussion with Placid.  You seem to do better with him. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Salaam,CH



CAringheart,
but then how come you ignore and not believe the words Jesus spoke directly and are suppose to be his words, not Johns, Marks or anybody. Do you trust more them than you trust Jesus? Who said very clearly that God is greater than him, that he has a God to whom he is returning!!!
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 2:08pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

You are very good at twisting people's words.  It seems to be your main occupation.  Is it deliberate, or not?  I really can't say.
"you stated that these miracles occurred in the time of the "Apostles" only. "
I never said any such thing.  You must show me where you think I said this.

This is what I said, and I am quoting for the third time now.
"I do not believe anybody today has the kind of belief it would take.  The early Apostle's were able to do these things, but people today have more belief in themselves than in the power of God... i.e., the supernatural."


LOL Oh, for the love of God...

Don't you see that by saying that no one today has the kind of belief it would take to perform these miracles and that the early apostles could do them, you are saying that only the apostles were able to perform them since they had the type of belief required?  What else could this mean?

Also, you frustratingly repeated the above in your 12/10 response to my repeated requests for proof that the so-called "healers" and people "speaking in tongues" you previously spoke of would survive if they ingested poison.  Don't blame me for your own contradictions and lack of clarity. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You believe the 'reports' about Muhammad don't you though?
That an angel appeared to him in a cave.
That he took a midnight ride on a flying horse.
Even though these are reports he made of himself.

All we ever have are reports.  I tend to believe those testifying of things not to do with themselves but rather to do with things witnessed.


I am not talking about ancient reports but the "reports" of people in other parts of the world where you claim these miracles still occur.  And as I said, anyone can make up a "report" that they "witnessed" something unusual.  That does not mean it is true.  Only a gullible person would believe a report without investigating the matter further.

Do you believe in the "reports" of alien abductions, Bigfoot or Chupacabra?  What about the Loch Ness monster? 




-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:59pm
Greetings islamispeace,

Ah, here is the problem in our misunderstanding, and I thought about highlighting this last night when I replied...
"I do not believe..."
Once again, this is about belief.
I personally would be surprised to encounter miracles in my part of the world... I am pretty sure I gave this clarification...
here it is;
"Greetings islamispeace,
It is not contradiction, but qualification.There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there. "
 but I do not disclaim what others say they have witnessed.  Who am I to say?  Who am I to judge what goes on in other parts of the world?

See you do not take the time to think about and absorb what I say in its entirety.  You are too quick to dispute.

"anyone can make up a "report" that they "witnessed" something unusual.  That does not mean it is true. "
I agree, but when you have many witnesses...
Are you familiar with the Marian apparitions that occur and have been reported by many witnesses around the world?  What do you make of those?  Are they not miracles?

I personally do not believe, or disbelieve, about bigfoot, alien abductions, and the loch ness monster.  I have no reason to think these stories may not be true, but I also have no proof, so I make no final judgment but remain open minded.  I have never heard of the other one... Chupacabra.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:17pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

Ah, here is the problem in our misunderstanding, and I thought about highlighting this last night when I replied...
"I do not believe..."
Once again, this is about belief.
I personally would be surprised to encounter miracles in my part of the world... I am pretty sure I gave this clarification...
here it is;
"Greetings islamispeace,
It is not contradiction, but qualification.There are actually many Christians who report witnessing miracles in parts of the world where peoples minds are still very open to belief.  In my part of the world... not so much.  So personally, I see that the greater part of the world has drifted away and abandoned God as central to life, and the kind of belief needed is not there. "
 but I do not disclaim what others say they have witnessed.  Who am I to say?  Who am I to judge what goes on in other parts of the world?

See you do not take the time to think about and absorb what I say in its entirety.  You are too quick to dispute.

"anyone can make up a "report" that they "witnessed" something unusual.  That does not mean it is true. "
I agree, but when you have many witnesses...
Are you familiar with the Marian apparitions that occur and have been reported by many witnesses around the world?  What do you make of those?  Are they not miracles?

I personally do not believe, or disbelieve, about bigfoot, alien abductions, and the loch ness monster.  I have no reason to think these stories may not be true, but I also have no proof, so I make no final judgment but remain open minded.  I have never heard of the other one... Chupacabra.

Salaam,
CH


As usual, your reply does not answer the question and instead resorts to half-answers such as "who am I to judge what goes on in other parts of the world". 

Answer this question: do you think the "miracles" mentioned in Mark 16 occur in other parts of the world, and if so, what proof is there for these "miracles"?

So, if you heard "reports" that Hindu idols were drinking milk, would you believe these as well, because as you say, 'who are you to judge what goes on in other parts of the world"? 

I have heard many "reports" of alleged "miracles" such as apparitions of Mary (as).  I have also heard "reports" of people seeing Mary in their toast!  As I said, just because there are "reports" does not mean they actually happened.  In the absence of proof, they are nothing more than stories.   

Chupacabra is an alleged unknown animal which supposedly drinks the blood of livestock.  "Sightings" of this animal have been made in Central America as well as in southwest US.   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Answer this question: do you think the "miracles" mentioned in Mark 16 occur in other parts of the world, and if so, what proof is there for these "miracles"?


What do you say?
Do you have the answer for absolute certain?

Do you know for absolute certain that Muhammad met an angel in a cave?
Do you know for certain that he took a midnight ride on a flying horse?

Do we know for absolute certain that Moses and a bunch of Israelites crossed the reed sea?

I say I do not have the answers, only what I may, or may not, believe.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by islamispeace

Answer this question: do you think the "miracles" mentioned in Mark 16 occur in other parts of the world, and if so, what proof is there for these "miracles"?
What do you say?Do you have the answer for absolute certain?Do you know for absolute certain that Muhammad met an angel in a cave?Do you know for certain that he took a midnight ride on a flying horse?Do we know for absolute certain that Moses and a bunch of Israelites crossed the reed sea?I say I do not have the answers, only what I may, or may not, believe.


Caringheart,
what that has to do with the topic??
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 7:04pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


Answer this question: do you think the "miracles" mentioned in Mark 16 occur in other parts of the world, and if so, what proof is there for these "miracles"?


What do you say?
Do you have the answer for absolute certain?

Do you know for absolute certain that Muhammad met an angel in a cave?
Do you know for certain that he took a midnight ride on a flying horse?

Do we know for absolute certain that Moses and a bunch of Israelites crossed the reed sea?

I say I do not have the answers, only what I may, or may not, believe.


Caringheart is still avoiding answering my questions and instead responds with questions of her own.

But I get it.  You have no proof.  Got it.  Thanks.

But you also did not answer my question about the Hindu idols.  You said that you cannot judge what goes on in other parts of the world, so if you heard "reports" of Hindu idols drinking milk, would you be inclined to keep an "open mind" or would you dismiss it as pagan myth?  I am sure you can see where I am going with this. 




-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

MARK 16;15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"

i am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.


Salaam Alaikum, MahditheSeeker. I have to admit this is a good question, and one I also wonder a lot about.

In the Book of Acts, Jesus' followers did drive out demons, lay hands on the sick and heal them, and Paul's hand was latched on to a viper which did not bite him.

Acts 5:12-16

The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.

Acts 28:1-6

28 Once safely on shore, we found out that the island was called Malta. The islanders showed us unusual kindness. They built a fire and welcomed us all because it was raining and cold. Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects.
The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

Speaking in tongues also took place in Acts 2:1-13

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues "#fen-NIV-26954a" - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26954a - a ] as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, "#fen-NIV-26959b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26959b - b ] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”


As the Bible states, there were some early Christians who did do these things. The verse does not say that the signs will accompany every believer, or how often they will happen in history.


Some Christian Biblical commentators are of the view that these signs were intended for the early church only, to help spread the faith.

http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/mark/16.htm - Barnes' Notes on the Bible

And these signs - These miracles. These evidences that they are sent from God.

Them that believe - The apostles, and those in the primitive age who were endowed with like power. This promise was fulfilled if it can be shown that these signs followed in the case of any who believed, and it is not necessary to suppose that they would follow in the case of all. The meaning is, that they would be the result of faith, or of the belief of the gospel. It is true that they were. These signs were shown in the case of the apostles and early Christians. The infidel cannot say that the promise has not been fulfilled unless he can show that this never occurred; the Christian should be satisfied that the promise was fulfilled if these miracles were ever actually wrought, though they do not occur now; and the believer now should not expect a miracle in his case. Miracles were necessary for the establishment of religion in the world; they are not necessary for its continuance now.

In my name - By my authority, and using the power that I would in such cases, if bodily present. This was done; and in this they differed essentially from the manner in which Jesus himself wrought miracles. He did it in "his own name," and as possessing original, underived authority. See the account of his stilling the sea ( http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/8-26.htm - Matthew 8:26 , etc.); of his healing the sick http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/9-5.htm - Matthew 9:5-6 ; of his raising Lazarus, http://niv.scripturetext.com/john/11.htm - John 11 . The prophets spoke "in the name of the Lord." The apostles did likewise, http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/3-6.htm - Acts 3:6 , etc. There was, therefore, an important difference between Jesus and all the other messengers that God has sent into the world. He acted in his own name; they in the name of another. He wielded his own power; they were the instruments by which God put forth the omnipotence of his arm to save. He was therefore God; they were men of like passions as other men, http://bible.cc/acts/14-15.htm - Acts 14:15 .

Shall they cast out devils - See the notes at http://bible.cc/matthew/4-24.htm - Matthew 4:24 . Compare http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/16-16.htm - Acts 16:16-18 .

Shall speak with new tongues - Shall speak other languages than their native language. This was remarkably fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/2-4.htm - Acts 2:4-11 . It existed, also, in other places. See http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/12-10.htm - 1 Corinthians 12:10 .

http://bible.cc/mark/16-17.htm


On the topic of poisons, what do you think of this hadith?


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582


If you were to eat 7 dates tomorrow morning, and then later that day bite down on a cyanide capsule or two or drink a cup of bleach or gasoline or eat some rat poison, would you not be harmed?


Of course I am not advocating you do this. But what do you think would happen?


Would it fair or reasonable of me to demand of Muslims to do the above, since if I am not mistaken you are called to listen to the teachings of Muhammad and he clearly said it that poison will not harm you during that day as long as you have seven dates in the morning?

Are you a `pretend believer` because of the fact (I hope!) you are not going to eat 7 dates tomorrow morning and then a few hours later swallow a spoonful of rat poison or down a cup of bleach or insecticide? *


*again, please don`t!!!!


Thanks and may God lead us all to the truth. Smile




Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:48pm
New International Version (©1984)
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."Mark 16:18


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 12:40am
still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 9:40am
Originally posted by iec786

New International Version (©1984)
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."Mark 16:18
Fantastic job copying and pasting, iec786. I can also copy and paste the hadiths again, but don't really see the point in doing that. Is there anything more you would like to add to the discussion? Thanks and God bless.


Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 9:57am
You are still forgetting that Paul was able to physically fulfil this as a sign of the greater spiritual battle Jesus' comments refer to.  Since Mark 16:9-20 is not Scripture but an addendum, you have to understand that Aristion misunderstood what Jesus said, but the original speech of Jesus relating to this topic in Luke 10 is clearly spiritual.  Aristion's confusion most likely arises out of knowing there was some kind of connection between this and Paul's miracle in Malta. 

It's amusing to see Muslims reason like Atheists.  You sound like you don't really believe that Jesus performed miracles, never mind people nowadays.  I actually experienced a very strange miracle this year.  I bumped into some Christians in London and they claimed one of my legs was slightly shorter than the other.  Since nobody has ever pointed this out to me, I was rather sceptical, but when they held my legs out sure enough, one of them was.  They then prayed for me, and I was thinking, Something may come of it, something may not.  but to my surprise, I felt my leg stretch and sure enough I don't walk quite as awkwardly as I used to.  This was something I'm grateful for especially as I suffer from Psoriatic arthritis resulting in ankylosin spondilitis. 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:11pm
If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan


Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.

I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not.

It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.

Who do you think it applies to?


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 8:34pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...



There is a clear difference between the promise of Mark 16 and the hadiths you mentioned above.  The latter do not say that a Muslim's faith will protect them if they willingly ingested poison or any harmful substance.  Rather, the hadiths are simply mentioning the health benefits of Ajwa dates.  This is clear from the fact that in Sahih Bukhari, the hadiths about the dates are grouped in the section pertaining to medicine.  Moreover, a hadith in Sahih Muslim explains the health benefits of dates:

"'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The 'ajwa' dates of 'Aliya' contain heating effects and these are antidote in the early morning." (Book 23, Number 5083)


Another hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud mentions the benefits of dates with regard to heart problems:

"Narrated Sa'd: I suffered from an illness. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) came to pay a visit to me. He put his hands between my nipples and I felt its coolness at my heart. He said: You are a man suffering from heart sickness. Go to al-Harith ibn Kaladah, brother of Thaqif. He is a man who gives medical treatment. He should take seven ajwah dates of Medina and grind them with their kernels, and then put them into your mouth." (Book 28, Number 3866)

From these hadiths, it is clear that dates were considered to be beneficial to human health. 

Interestingly, a recent study done on rats showed that date seeds had a protective effect against certain toxic substances.  It states:

"The results showed that date seeds significantly (P<0.05) reduced liver and serum malondialdehyde (a lipid peroxidative damage product) and serum lactate dehydrogenase and creatine kinase." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21480263 - [1]

Does this mean that dates can be used as an "antidote" to every known toxic substance on earth?  Not necessarily.  The hadiths certainly do not identify what type of poisons nor do they say that dates protect against every type of poisonous substance.  In fact, when talking about scorpion stings, the hadiths state that offering a prayer was used.  They probably did not have any effective treatments in those days for scorpion stings:

"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: While we were on one of our journeys, we dismounted at a place where a slave girl came and said, "The chief of this tribe has been stung by a scorpion and our men are not present; is there anybody among you who can treat him (by reciting something)?" Then one of our men went along with her though we did not think that he knew any such treatment. But he treated the chief by reciting something, and the sick man recovered whereupon he gave him thirty sheep and gave us milk to drink (as a reward). When he returned, we asked our friend, "Did you know how to treat with the recitation of something?" He said, "No, but I treated him only with the recitation of the Mother of the Book (i.e., Al-Fatiha)." We said, "Do not say anything (about it) till we reach or ask the Prophet so when we reached Medina, we mentioned that to the Prophet (in order to know whether the sheep which we had taken were lawful to take or not). The Prophet said, "How did he come to know that it (Al-Fatiha) could be used for treatment? Distribute your reward and assign for me one share thereof as well."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 61, Number 529)

Another variation of the hadith indicates that the person spit on the site of the sting along with reciting Surah al-Fatiha.  Of course, with modern medicine and such things as "anti-venom", it is not necessary to resort to these types of remedies, although prayer is still important.  People in those days used whatever they could.  In modern times, we have more options.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 4:56am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...



There is a clear difference between the promise of Mark 16 and the hadiths you mentioned above.  The latter do not say that a Muslim's faith will protect them if they willingly ingested poison or any harmful substance.  Rather, the hadiths are simply mentioning the health benefits of Ajwa dates.  This is clear from the fact that in Sahih Bukhari, the hadiths about the dates are grouped in the section pertaining to medicine.  Moreover, a hadith in Sahih Muslim explains the health benefits of dates:

"'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The 'ajwa' dates of 'Aliya' contain heating effects and these are antidote in the early morning." (Book 23, Number 5083)


Another hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud mentions the benefits of dates with regard to heart problems:

"Narrated Sa'd: I suffered from an illness. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) came to pay a visit to me. He put his hands between my nipples and I felt its coolness at my heart. He said: You are a man suffering from heart sickness. Go to al-Harith ibn Kaladah, brother of Thaqif. He is a man who gives medical treatment. He should take seven ajwah dates of Medina and grind them with their kernels, and then put them into your mouth." (Book 28, Number 3866)

From these hadiths, it is clear that dates were considered to be beneficial to human health. 

Interestingly, a recent study done on rats showed that date seeds had a protective effect against certain toxic substances.  It states:

"The results showed that date seeds significantly (P<0.05) reduced liver and serum malondialdehyde (a lipid peroxidative damage product) and serum lactate dehydrogenase and creatine kinase." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21480263 - [1]

Does this mean that dates can be used as an "antidote" to every known toxic substance on earth?  Not necessarily.  The hadiths certainly do not identify what type of poisons nor do they say that dates protect against every type of poisonous substance.  In fact, when talking about scorpion stings, the hadiths state that offering a prayer was used.  They probably did not have any effective treatments in those days for scorpion stings:

"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: While we were on one of our journeys, we dismounted at a place where a slave girl came and said, "The chief of this tribe has been stung by a scorpion and our men are not present; is there anybody among you who can treat him (by reciting something)?" Then one of our men went along with her though we did not think that he knew any such treatment. But he treated the chief by reciting something, and the sick man recovered whereupon he gave him thirty sheep and gave us milk to drink (as a reward). When he returned, we asked our friend, "Did you know how to treat with the recitation of something?" He said, "No, but I treated him only with the recitation of the Mother of the Book (i.e., Al-Fatiha)." We said, "Do not say anything (about it) till we reach or ask the Prophet so when we reached Medina, we mentioned that to the Prophet (in order to know whether the sheep which we had taken were lawful to take or not). The Prophet said, "How did he come to know that it (Al-Fatiha) could be used for treatment? Distribute your reward and assign for me one share thereof as well."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 61, Number 529)

Another variation of the hadith indicates that the person spit on the site of the sting along with reciting Surah al-Fatiha.  Of course, with modern medicine and such things as "anti-venom", it is not necessary to resort to these types of remedies, although prayer is still important.  People in those days used whatever they could.  In modern times, we have more options.

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace. The hadith does clearly say that eating 7 dates in the morning will protect a person from poison. The hadith does not say what types of poisons, it says "poison". Poison is defined as any substance that can cause a person harm.


poi·son  (poizn)
n.
1. A substance that causes injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means.
2. Something destructive or fatal.
3. Chemistry & Physics A substance that inhibits another substance or a reaction: a catalyst poison.
tr.v. poi·soned, poi·son·ing, poi·sons
1. To kill or harm with poison.
2. To put poison on or into: poisoning arrows; poisoned the drink.
3.
a. To pollute: Noxious fumes poison the air. See Synonyms at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/contaminate - contaminate .
b. To have a harmful influence on; corrupt: Jealousy poisoned their friendship.
4. Chemistry & Physics To inhibit (a substance or reaction).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/poison

I understand that dates do have medicinal value, but that isn't what the hadiths I cited were saying. They say that if a person eats 7 of them, he or she will be immune to poison (or magic) for the day. Nothing more, nothing less.

You say there could be a context, meaning that the author meant they protect against only certain kinds of poisons, and back then it was all that people had medicinally speaking so it was better than doing nothing. Likewise, it was best to just pray if bitten by a scorpion, whereas now we shouldn't rely only on prayer in this type of situation but also use medicine.

Why is the possibility not feasible for you that the passage in Mark also came within a context, and applied to a certain period in time only? People in the Book of Acts did handle snakes, heal people, speak in tongues. Perhaps there are still come Christians who are able to do this today, perhaps not. But these things did already happen, so Christ's words were shown to be true.


If people are going to try to 'disprove' Mark 16 on the basis that Christians today are for the most part unable to miraculously heal or speak in tongues or handle poisonous snakes, then it is as easy to 'disprove'  Muhammad's words in numbers 663 and 664 by noticing that if a person eats 7 dates at 6:00 AM and then eats a significant dose of rat poison at 9:00 AM, he will be dead or severely harmed in the next 60 minutes, long before night comes.




Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 5:06am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.

Salaam Alaikum MahdiTheSeeker,

Try this fun experiment. Invite someone from your mosque over for an early breakfast, and give him or her 7 dates along with the meal. Invite them over later for lunch, and mix a few spoonfuls of rat poison or potassium cyanide with their food or beverage and see what happens. If they smack their lips and say "mmmm that was good", you will have proven Muhammad right. If they fall to the ground writhing and/or bleeding from their nose and mouth and/or trying their best to vomit and/or pass out and are dead within the next 5-60 minutes (assuming you do not get medical help), I guess by your logic it will have proven Muhammad was wrong.*

If you don't do this, btw, you are not a true believer.


This 'challenge' I posted to you is as senseless and ridiculous as the one you are presenting for the Christians on this forum.



*Please do not actually do this. Your co-believer will end up dead or severely harmed, and you will end up in prison for either murder or attempted murder.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 7:14am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote from Post 1:
MARK 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"


Response: --- This is a question that has been asked before, --- and the other question, whether or not the last verses of Mark’s Gospel are authentic.

--- I would like to start with the Scripture. --- In studying this through before, and again now, --- I find that the verses from 16:9-20 are noted as being in all of the Bible versions, but are mentioned as not being in the first two Greek manuscripts.

In the Dake’s Annotated Bible Commentary, he says,
Quote: “Of 618 Greek Manuscripts that contain the Gospels, only 2 do not have these verses. --- Syriac is the first language in which the NT was translated in 150 AD, and it contained these verses.
Following that, they are in the Coptic and Egyptian Versions in the 3rd and 4th centuries, --- The Gothic Version, in 350, --- The Latin versions, 8000 of them now exist, copied from Jerome’s Vulgate in 382, --- and the Armenian Bible about 400 AD.” --- End of quote.

--- (The Douay Version was translated to English from the Latin Vulgate about 1600, of which I have a copy, and it doesn’t mention these verses being separate, --- which is the same as the earlier King James Version, which were translated from Greek Manuscripts and produced in 1611. There is no footnote or mention, --- so to that date the verses were considered authentic.
--- In the Amplified Bible a footnote says, [9-20,are not in the two earliest manuscripts.]
--- In the New King James Study Bible which I use, the footnote says, [These verses are lacking in the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark have them.]

Enough history, now we can consider why they were not in the first two

Salaam, --- I would like to say,
--- I believe your testimony to be true about the lengthening of your leg. --- Wow! --- These are always amazing things to me, but not something I haven’t seen happen, or haven’t experienced myself.
(This is what gives us confidence to share our faith with others, if they will listen.)

One day I was walking in a Mall and a fellow came up and said, “I see you are limping a little, would you like me to pray for you?”
This was unusual but I said, ‘I am a Christian and believe in healing, but what is your level of faith?’ --- He told me about himself and I felt that he was genuine, so I said, ‘okay.’ --- He laid his hand on my shoulder and prayed, --- I thanked him and we went our separate ways.    
--- My slight limp was not from a physical problem of bone structure, but it was a muscle in my groin that I favored a little when I walked. (I used to call it a ‘hitch in my git-a-long.’) --- As verse 18 says, “They shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover.” --- It doesn’t say immediately, but “They will recover.”

It may have been a week or two before I noticed I was walking normally. --- I thanked the Lord for sending that one to pray for me, and I thanked God for the healing. --- You see, it doesn’t have to be spectacular, but very natural for one Christian to pray for another.

--- In our Church we had a lady who suffered from migraine headaches (If you have ever had them, you will understand). --- One day as I was talking to her when she was suffering, the Lord prompted me to touch one of the two cords on the back of her neck. --- (This was unnatural because we usually never touch a lady apart from a simple hug.) --- Almost before I realized it, I was touching the cord with the end of my fingers and said, “Is that where it hurts?” --- She acknowledged, “Yes.” --- I withdrew my hand and we went on visiting with other people.
--- We never mentioned the incident again, and no one seemed to notice, --- but in due time her headaches were gone, and I have never heard her talk about headaches since. --- We just say, “Praise the Lord.”

I will get on with the explanation of the verses next.


Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:16am
To continue:

What was different about the first two manuscripts than the others, --- other than the verses themselves?

The Synoptic Gospels. Matthew, which was written for the Jews, --- Mark, which was written for the Romans, --- and Luke, the medical doctor and Historian, which was written for the Greeks.

Matthew starts with Genealogies, and Prophecies being fulfilled, to prove to the Jews that Jesus was the coming Messiah, --- which only the Jews would understand.

Mark, writing to the Romans where he and Peter had been ministering for some years, --- starts his shorter Gospel with John the Baptist, --- which was the first revival of the Jews through Baptism for Repentance and forgiveness of sin.

Luke, was Greek, and the only non-Jewish author in the NT. He had to have gotten his information from Mary, the mother of Jesus, --- some of which is written as only a mother could express it.
In Luke’s intro, 1:1-4, he reveals his reason for writing in verse 3:
“It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding from the very first, to write to you an orderly account.”   

Evidence shows in the writings of the Church Fathers that Matthew first wrote “The Sayings of Jesus,” --- and then a “Gospel” in Aramaic, the common language of the people. --- Later, when they wrote their Gospels in Greek they would use the former material that had been written, as a pattern that the three of the Gospels follow. --- The Gospel Message was the same to all, even as it is to everyone today.

Have a look at how they ended:
Matthew 28:
1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
--- (They found the tomb empty, and the angel gave them instructions):
7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”
8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them.
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Mark 16 (1-8):
1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.
--- (They found the tomb empty, and the angel gave them instructions):
6 But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.
7 But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Luke 24:
1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
--- (They found the tomb empty, and the angel gave them information):
6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee,
7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”
8 And they remembered His words.
9 Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.

--- Do you see the difference?


Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 20 December 2012 at 3:16pm
(To continue with Mark):

You will notice that Mark’s Gospel would end on a negative note if it only went to verse 8. --- Mark 1:
7 But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

There is no mention of Mark being at the cross, or with the disciples after a certain incident that is recorded, only in his Gospel account in Mark 14:
(This is when they arrested Jesus in the garden and the disciples ‘disappeared into the night,’ because had they offered much resistance, the soldiers would have arrested them also. --- And it says this about one who lingered):
51--- Now a certain young man followed Him, having a linen cloth thrown around his naked body. And the young men (soldiers or guards) laid hold of him,
52 and he left the linen cloth and fled from them naked.
--- (It is believed that this was Mark, himself, which helps to identify him as the writer of this Book.)

There are other interesting things here. --- Why does it say, “Tell the disciples – AND PETER – “?

Remember, In the Garden, Peter, --- still the impulsive man of action, --- was the one who began to offer resistance, and cut off the ear of a servant named Malchus John 18:10.
In Luke 22:51 it says then “Jesus touched the ear and healed it.”
--- (What effect would that have had on those who came to arrest Jesus?)

Earlier Peter had said this in 22:
33 But he (Peter) said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”
34 Then He (Jesus) said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

54 Having arrested Him (Jesus), they led Him and brought Him into the high priest’s house. But Peter followed at a distance.
55 Now when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat among them.
56 And a certain servant girl, seeing him as he sat by the fire, looked intently at him and said, “This man was also with Him.”
57 But he denied Him, saying, “Woman, I do not know Him.”
--- (He denied two more times, then this happened):
60 Immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed.
61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”
62 So Peter went out and wept bitterly.

I believe this is when Peter really repented and was converted.
--- So Peter stayed in the background till after the crucifixion and did not see Jesus again till after the resurrection. --- After Jesus rose, the angel told the women, “Go tell the disciples, -- and Peter --.” --- Mark said the women were afraid.

However, John who was there all of the time, recorded this in John 20:
2 Then she (Mary Magdalene) ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple (John), whom Jesus loved , and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb.
4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first

--- (Eventually Peter confessed his love for Jesus, and became an outstanding Apostle, in the Book of Acts, after the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.)


Placid



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 20 December 2012 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.


Well said.  I feel the same way!


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 20 December 2012 at 7:41pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

You are still forgetting that Paul was able to physically fulfil this as a sign of the greater spiritual battle Jesus' comments refer to.  Since Mark 16:9-20 is not Scripture but an addendum, you have to understand that Aristion misunderstood what Jesus said, but the original speech of Jesus relating to this topic in Luke 10 is clearly spiritual.  Aristion's confusion most likely arises out of knowing there was some kind of connection between this and Paul's miracle in Malta.


Why would a supposedly "inspired" book need an "addendum"?  And why would the person adding the "addendum" "misunderstand what Jesus said..."?  Isn't the "Holy Spirit" supposed to ensure that no mistakes get into the text? 

But at least you acknowledge that Mark 16:9-20 is not authentic, which is what I have been saying all along.  We are making progress!

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

It's amusing to see Muslims reason like Atheists.  You sound like you don't really believe that Jesus performed miracles, never mind people nowadays.  I actually experienced a very strange miracle this year.  I bumped into some Christians in London and they claimed one of my legs was slightly shorter than the other.  Since nobody has ever pointed this out to me, I was rather sceptical, but when they held my legs out sure enough, one of them was.  They then prayed for me, and I was thinking, Something may come of it, something may not.  but to my surprise, I felt my leg stretch and sure enough I don't walk quite as awkwardly as I used to.  This was something I'm grateful for especially as I suffer from Psoriatic arthritis resulting in ankylosin spondilitis.


Sweetheart, no one is questioning the validity of miracles. LOL  We are questioning why not one Christian is able to fulfill the promises of miracles made in Mark 16, which as you and I both know, is actually not authentic. 

I wonder if the Christians you ran into, who prayed for you, would have been able to perform the miracles mentioned in Mark 16, or if they even believe that verses 9-20 are even authentic. 

Regarding the alleged "miracle" you experienced, obviously no one can comment because no one was around when it happened.  I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it, such as a doctor (since we are dealing with a supposed medical miracle). 

I am sorry you suffer from arthritis, but don't you think that the prayers those people you met made should have done a little more than just stretching your leg, given your condition (if that even happened or if it was just in your head)?

Also, since you obviously believe in miracles and you think Muslims questioning reports of Christian miracles is "amusing", then perhaps you can answer the question that Caringheart seems to be trying to avoid like the plague: What if you heard reports of Hindu idols miraculously drinking milk?  Would you believe these reports? 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 December 2012 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it...

I think it is funny to see you using this argument when it is what I have been saying to you, yet when I say it, you reject it. Shocked


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 21 December 2012 at 5:35am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote from Post 1:
MARK 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"

Response: --- You will notice that Mark’s Gospel would end on a negative note if it was concluded in verse 8. --- Mark 16:
6 But he (the angel) said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.
7 But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Because Mark had access to the former writings in Aramaic, he also got his info from Peter as they worked together in Rome. --- Some have said it could have been called ‘the Gospel according to Peter.’

However, Peter was older and if in his years as a fisherman in Galilee, he would be fluent in Aramaic, the common Hebrew dialect of the people, as well as Latin, --- but perhaps not fluent in Greek. --- Mark, being younger was perhaps fluent in Greek so he could readily translate from the original ‘Gospel of Matthew’ in Aramaic.
In the Intro to Mark in the New King James Study Bible, it says:
Quote: It was his close association with Peter that lent Apostolic authority to Mark’s Gospel, since Peter was obviously Mark’s primary source of information. --- End of quote.

While Peter and Mark worked together, they maybe were not together all of the time, and perhaps not so often when Mark was doing his intensive writing. --- It is understood that Mark’s account was the first Gospel published in Greek, but Matthew and Luke were in the process and would follow the same format, within a short time.

Perhaps when Mark finished, he may have given it over to others who were anxiously waiting to copy it.
Everything written had to be copied by hand, and the originals kept.
--- If Peter had not seen it to verify the ending before it was finalized by Mark, the first manuscript would have been copied, ending --- with the resurrection in 16:6, --- the instruction in v7, --- and the statement in v8, that they told no one.

--- The power of God was revealed in the Resurrection, which Mark’s account would have ended with, written in verse 6.
---And the Resurrection from the dead WAS the Victory over death, which WAS the most important event.

The verses 9-20 are obviously added like a “Post Script” --- which includes the Great Commission and the Apostolic ministry of the Book of Acts.
This would be contributed and verified by Peter, as he was the ‘Apostolic Apostle’ who spoke on the Day of Pentecost. 'He was there when it happened,' and he was the one through whom God performed many signs and miracles.

It is all authentic, and such signs and wonders are still happening today, so we can look at the verses 17-18 next.


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 December 2012 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not. It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.Who do you think it applies to?


So those who, according to you, do not follow God can still perform miracles in the name of Jesus? Is that's what you are suggesting?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 21 December 2012 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not. It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.Who do you think it applies to?


So those who, according to you, do not follow God can still perform miracles in the name of Jesus? Is that's what you are suggesting?
Hasan

Yes. Satan can also use supernatural phenomena.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 6:49am
Hi Mahdi and others,

As I said previously, in a quote from Dake’s Bible commentary:
“Of 618 Greek Manuscripts that contain the Gospels, only 2 do not have these verses.”
--- In the Amplified Bible a footnote says, (Verses 9-20, are not in the two earliest manuscripts.)
And in the New King James Version a footnote says:
[These verses are not in the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark have them.]

The reason I say they are 'authentic' is because they reflect Peter, the ‘source person’ and ‘co-author’ of the Gospel of Mark.
As I said before, --- Mark recorded the events up until the Resurrection, which was the Victory over Death, and the Defeat of Satan.

Mark ended it this way in 16:
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

--- The instruction in verse 7 was, --- “But go and tell His disciples and -- PETER.”
But, according to Mark, they didn’t tell anyone.

--- However, the one who came first to the tomb, Mary Magdalene, did go and tell Peter and John, as is recorded in John’s Gospel in 20:
1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb.
4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple (John) outran Peter and came to the tomb first.

--- So, Peter was the eye witness, and he obviously composed the added verses that were included in all of the newer manuscripts.

Notice, --- that Peter starts over again in verse 9, from verse 1, where it says, “Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene.”

How does Peter describe her? --- “Out of whom He (Jesus) had cast seven demons.”
--- Peter was the ‘Pentecostal’ in the Book of Acts. --- God had given him the gifts of healing and miracles, and Peter had not only seen Jesus perform miracles of healing and deliverance, --- but he was the one that God used to convince the Jews that Jesus did confer God’s Holy Spirit on believers, that they could be healed by the laying on of hands, verse 18.

Peter described Mary as ‘one who had been delivered of seven demons.’
--- This deliverance is recorded in Luke 8:
1 Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with Him,
2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, — Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons,

The Pentecostal and Apostolic Churches of today came from the pattern of the Day of Pentecost, and the gifts of the Spirit that were manifested through the Apostles in the Book of Acts, --- properly called "The Acts of the Apostles."
--- Peter was the leader in the healing and deliverance ministry, --- that the following verses are about.
--- (More on them next)


Placid



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 7:30am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.


Well said.  I feel the same way!

Dear Islamispeace and MahditheSeeker,

Salaam Alaikum.
MahditheSeeker claims that the day he will find a "true believer" anywhere in the universe (based on Mark 16:15) he will believe the Bible, and islamispeace claims he feels the same way.

MARK 16:15-18 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well" 

I want to preface the following by stating I believe this was meant for the early church, and these signs were meant to demonstrate God's power to the unbelievers. I do not believe that Christians today are called to do these things, although I do believe that in some cases God does these things through people.

Having said this, you claim that if you find a person anywhere in the universe doing the things in Mark 16:15, you will believe the Bible.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153933/Revealed-The-secretive-deadly-church-services-Appalachias-serpent-handlers-lift-rattlesnakes-heads-drink-poison-God.html#ixzz1wnVo5c1t


James Nye from Mail Online visited a pentecostal church in the US whose members have handled poisonous snakes and drank strychinine during servcies... and continue to do so. It is one of many such churches, which takes Mark 16:15 literally and believes it applies to believers in the 20th/21st century.

Between 1920s and when this article was written, around 100 church snake bite related deaths have been documented. However, thousands have handled these snakes.

It is estimated that up to 100 people have died in the 100 or so years since the practice began, which supporters claim is a small number considering thousands of worshipers have handled thousands of deadly snakes in that time.

Also, the snake handlers also take in strychinine.

Aware of the public fascination with serpent handling, Wolford wanted to use his platform to spread his beliefs to a new younger congregation.

But, even if holding the rattlesnakes and copperheads wasn't dangerous enough, serpent handlers also ingest deadly strychnine during services.

'In my life I’ve probably drunk two gallons of it,' said Wolford.

National Geographic interviewed Tom Burton, a professor who studied such churches and attended their services for over 30 years. He claims only certain individuals commonly handled such serpents. Commonly handled would mean they do this pretty regularly.

Tom Burton, a professor emeritus at East Tennessee State University, has attended many snake-handling services and studied the practice for over 30 years. He's the author of Serpent Handling Believers, an authoritative study of the belief. Burton says that much of what goes on at such churches would be familiar to other Christians. "If you were there when they were not taking up serpents, or even during other parts of a service where they did, it would be like many other Pentecostal groups," he explained. "There is singing, preaching, laying on of hands, praying, testifying, and that sort of thing. It's kind of an expressive church service where people freely share emotions, a very participatory service like most Pentecostal services."

But those anointed by the Holy Spirit answer the calling by taking up the deadly reptiles or by drinking poisons. Burton said: "Only certain individuals commonly handle serpents, and it goes without saying that they warn people: 'If you're not directed by the Holy Ghost to do this, you'd better not.'"


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers_2.html

The snake handling, poison drinking church has been visited by many reporters, researches, tv crews and photographers.

For years, this tiny church in an unincorporated hamlet of 1,191 souls has been world-famous for its death-defying handlers of serpents. Reporters, researchers, photographers and TV crews have come here to track Pentecostals who brandish poisonous snakes, drink strychnine and play with fire as a testimony of their faith.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-11-10/lifestyle/35281689_1_snake-handlers-drink-strychnine-wolford

Here is a CNN video of church members handling deadly snakes during a service in the Appalachia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwBVcsWYJd8

I believe the Bible is true, but not on the basis of such things. It is true because it is God's word and shows God for Who He is and what He has done for us, this is what I believe.

However, you stated you would believe it to be true if you found one person in the entire universe who can do the things in Mark 16. Well, there certainly are Christians today who can handle snakes and drink poison without being harmed.

I personally hope that if you do give your life to Jesus, you will do it because you find that what the Bible says about God is true not because of snake handlers in Appalachia, but I just found your comment to be interesting and I guess if I were to hold you to your word I would demand that you believe the Bible based on what you said. However, I wouldn't do such a thing to you, and will keep discussing with you and praying for you instead.

Salaam. Smile





Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 11:29am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace. The hadith does clearly say that eating 7 dates in the morning will protect a person from poison. The hadith does not say what types of poisons, it says "poison". Poison is defined as any substance that can cause a person harm.


I agree, but as I said and showed, there is no indication that when the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said "poison", he did not indicate what type or if all poisonous substances were included.  The proof for this is in the hadith I showed about a person being bitten by a snake or stung by a scorpion.  Would you agree that snake or scorpion venom is a "substance that can cause a person harm"?  And yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not say that dates can protect a person against snake venom.

Moreover, I showed that the hadiths have a medical context, not a spiritual one, which is the case with Mark 16.  Not one Christian can claim to have met the promise of Mark 16.  The bar was clearly set too high.  In contrast, the hadiths you referred to were speaking of the medicinal benefits of dates, which as I have shown, is scientifically accurate.  I even provided a citation from a peer-reviewed study which showed that date seeds had a protective effect against toxic substances like liver malondialdehyde.  Do you think that such substances cannot "cause a person harm"?

Originally posted by TG12345

understand that dates do have medicinal value, but that isn't what the hadiths I cited were saying. They say that if a person eats 7 of them, he or she will be immune to poison (or magic) for the day. Nothing more, nothing less.


You are basing that on your own authority.  Obviously, and no offense intended, you have no authority in explaining to Muslims how a hadith should be interpreted.  I will accept the authority of an established scholar like Imam Bukhari, who placed these hadiths in the section under "Medicine".  In fact, the very next hadith, as I showed, states clearly that dates have health benefits.  That is the context by which the hadiths you referred to should be read. 

Originally posted by TG12345

You say there could be a context, meaning that the author meant they protect against only certain kinds of poisons, and back then it was all that people had medicinally speaking so it was better than doing nothing. Likewise, it was best to just pray if bitten by a scorpion, whereas now we shouldn't rely only on prayer in this type of situation but also use medicine.
 

When did I say this?  If you read my response carefully, I wrote the following:

"Of course, with modern medicine and such things as "anti-venom", it is not necessary to resort to these types of remedies, although prayer is still important.  People in those days used whatever they could.  In modern times, we have more options."

What I was saying was that we have more options in modern times than people did in those days.  I also said that prayer is still important, because no matter how many medical advances we make, ultimately our fate is in God's hands.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why is the possibility not feasible for you that the passage in Mark also came within a context, and applied to a certain period in time only? People in the Book of Acts did handle snakes, heal people, speak in tongues. Perhaps there are still come Christians who are able to do this today, perhaps not. But these things did already happen, so Christ's words were shown to be true.


I would love for you to explain what the "context" is.  There have been different responses so far.  I think the context is pretty clear, though:

"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”"

It states that all who believe will be able to drive out demons and drink poison and survive.  I have heard that people "speak in tongues" in various churches.  So why don't we also hear reports of people drinking poison and surviving?  Why has that phenomenon apparently disappeared?

Originally posted by TG12345

If people are going to try to 'disprove' Mark 16 on the basis that Christians today are for the most part unable to miraculously heal or speak in tongues or handle poisonous snakes, then it is as easy to 'disprove'  Muhammad's words in numbers 663 and 664 by noticing that if a person eats 7 dates at 6:00 AM and then eats a significant dose of rat poison at 9:00 AM, he will be dead or severely harmed in the next 60 minutes, long before night comes.


Even if what you claim about the hadiths is true, which it is not, the problem of Mark 16 still remains.  Therefore, you have done nothing to answer the questions that have been asked on this thread, as has every other Christian who has posted.  All you have done is to commit a red herring and change the subject.  It certainly would not make anyone want to convert to Christianity.  The worst case scenario is that we would both need to renounce our faiths (if your interpretation of the hadiths is correct) and either become atheists/agnostics or perhaps deists. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...


Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, islamispeace. The hadith does clearly say that eating 7 dates in the morning will protect a person from poison. The hadith does not say what types of poisons, it says "poison". Poison is defined as any substance that can cause a person harm.


Originally posted by islamispeace

I agree, but as I said and showed, there is no indication that when the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said "poison", he did not indicate what type or if all poisonous substances were included.  The proof for this is in the hadith I showed about a person being bitten by a snake or stung by a scorpion.  Would you agree that snake or scorpion venom is a "substance that can cause a person harm"?  And yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not say that dates can protect a person against snake venom.

Muhammad said that the dates should be taken in the morning, according to the hadith. If the man was bitten by a scorpion sometime not in the morning, then it would have been senseless to offer him the dates. Number 663 and 664 do not say to take the dates after something bad has happened, but to take them in the morning and if one does so, one will not be touched by poison or magic.

Number 5083 makes clear that the dates contain antidote affects in the morning.

Sunan Abu Dawud is not an authentic hadith, unlike Bukhari and Muslim, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up. The man who came to see Muhammad for help was not suffering from poisoning, but from heart sickness.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Moreover, I showed that the hadiths have a medical context, not a spiritual one, which is the case with Mark 16.  Not one Christian can claim to have met the promise of Mark 16.  The bar was clearly set too high.

There are some Christians who handle poisonous snakes and do not get bitten. There are some Christians who drink poison like strychnine and do not get harmed or die (see previous post, when it passes the review lol).  There are cases where people have claimed to have been healed by prayer.

In the Book of Acts, the early church did all these things, and it was on a widespread scale. I believe that Mark 16 was in regards to the early church, and I cited Biblical scholars who agree.

Originally posted by islamispeace

In contrast, the hadiths you referred to were speaking of the medicinal benefits of dates, which as I have shown, is scientifically accurate.  I even provided a citation from a peer-reviewed study which showed that date seeds had a protective effect against toxic substances like liver malondialdehyde.  Do you think that such substances cannot "cause a person harm"?

Did the hadith say that 7 dates in the morning protect against liver malondialdehyde, or that they protect against magic and poison?

Originally posted by TG12345

understand that dates do have medicinal value, but that isn't what the hadiths I cited were saying. They say that if a person eats 7 of them, he or she will be immune to poison (or magic) for the day. Nothing more, nothing less.


Originally posted by islamispeace

You are basing that on your own authority.

I am basing it on what the hadith says.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Obviously, and no offense intended, you have no authority in explaining to Muslims how a hadith should be interpreted.  I will accept the authority of an established scholar like Imam Bukhari, who placed these hadiths in the section under "Medicine".  In fact, the very next hadith, as I showed, states clearly that dates have health benefits.  That is the context by which the hadiths you referred to should be read. 

No offense intended, but you need to start taking your own advice. Albert Barnes knows more about the Bible than you do, yet you ignored his words that I posted earlier.

The other two hadith you showed did absolutely nothing to dispel the notion that dates prevent poison from harming a person if they are eaten in the morning.

Originally posted by TG12345

You say there could be a context, meaning that the author meant they protect against only certain kinds of poisons, and back then it was all that people had medicinally speaking so it was better than doing nothing. Likewise, it was best to just pray if bitten by a scorpion, whereas now we shouldn't rely only on prayer in this type of situation but also use medicine.
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

When did I say this?  If you read my response carefully, I wrote the following:

"Of course, with modern medicine and such things as "anti-venom", it is not necessary to resort to these types of remedies, although prayer is still important.  People in those days used whatever they could.  In modern times, we have more options."

What I was saying was that we have more options in modern times than people did in those days.  I also said that prayer is still important, because no matter how many medical advances we make, ultimately our fate is in God's hands.

OK, I misunderstood you. I apologize for that.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why is the possibility not feasible for you that the passage in Mark also came within a context, and applied to a certain period in time only? People in the Book of Acts did handle snakes, heal people, speak in tongues. Perhaps there are still come Christians who are able to do this today, perhaps not. But these things did already happen, so Christ's words were shown to be true.


Originally posted by islamispeace

I would love for you to explain what the "context" is.  There have been different responses so far.  I think the context is pretty clear, though:

"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”"

It states that all who believe will be able to drive out demons and drink poison and survive.  I have heard that people "speak in tongues" in various churches.  So why don't we also hear reports of people drinking poison and surviving?  Why has that phenomenon apparently disappeared?

Read Barne's commentary that I pasted for you. Furthermore, there are people who do drink poison and church and survive. However, these signs were meant for the early church.

Originally posted by TG12345

If people are going to try to 'disprove' Mark 16 on the basis that Christians today are for the most part unable to miraculously heal or speak in tongues or handle poisonous snakes, then it is as easy to 'disprove'  Muhammad's words in numbers 663 and 664 by noticing that if a person eats 7 dates at 6:00 AM and then eats a significant dose of rat poison at 9:00 AM, he will be dead or severely harmed in the next 60 minutes, long before night comes.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Even if what you claim about the hadiths is true, which it is not, the problem of Mark 16 still remains.  Therefore, you have done nothing to answer the questions that have been asked on this thread, as has every other Christian who has posted.

I answered the claim already, before posting my 'challenge' to MahditheSeeker. I provided you Barne's commentary. I have also shown you that according to the Book of Acts, the early church did these things. I have also shown you a few cases in the modern times when Christians have drank poisons, handled deadly snakes, etc.

Originally posted by islamispeace

All you have done is to commit a red herring and change the subject.

Maybe you are the one who missed my answer, because I did respond.

Originally posted by islamispeace

  It certainly would not make anyone want to convert to Christianity.  The worst case scenario is that we would both need to renounce our faiths (if your interpretation of the hadiths is correct) and either become atheists/agnostics or perhaps deists. 

I'm not ready to renounce God, and never will be.




Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 3:28pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it...

I think it is funny to see you using this argument when it is what I have been saying to you, yet when I say it, you reject it. Shocked


What on earth are you talking about?  I have been asking you for proof of your claims.  What do you think I meant by "proof"?  That is what I am asking "Salaam Erin" to provide as well.  All you said was that you had heard "reports" of "miracles", but when I asked you to prove these "reports", all I got was silence!  LOL

Now, since you have broken your silence by interjecting into my discussion with "Salaam Erin", perhaps you can answer the question that you have been avoiding:

If you heard "reports" that Hindu idols were drinking milk, would you believe these as well, because as you say, 'who are you to judge what goes on in other parts of the world"?

Why are you so afraid to answer this question??



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it...

I think it is funny to see you using this argument when it is what I have been saying to you, yet when I say it, you reject it. Shocked


If you heard "reports" that Hindu idols were drinking milk, would you believe these as well, because as you say, 'who are you to judge what goes on in other parts of the world"?

Why are you so afraid to answer this question??



islam...

I have answered your question, as I have been answering your questions... I neither believe, nor disbelieve... there are things not within my realm to judge.  Things I have neither exposure to, nor knowledge of.

I have no reason not to believe, or to believe.  Just because it seems beyond my belief does not mean it is not possible.  Was it possible that Moses' staff was turned into a snake?  Was it possible truly that the reed sea parted for the Israelites to pass but closed upon the egyptians?  Do I have proof?  Or do I have belief?  Does my belief make a thing true or untrue?  Who am I to discard the belief of others as untrue when I have no first hand exposure or knowledge?
There are statues of the Virgin Mary that are said to weep tears of blood.

You see, people have answered your questions, it's just that your ears are blocked because you are not hearing what you want to hear, and you do not stretch your mind to take in the answers that are given.  You are not truly seeking to understand other people.

Salaam... seek peace,
CH


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 6:55am
To continue from the first Post on Page 7)

Mark 16:9 mentions Mary Magdalene, who did tell Peter and John that Jesus was risen. --- and he identified Mary as “Out of whom He had cast 7 demons.” --- Which introduces the deliverance ministry which is mentioned in the later verses.

Then Peter goes on to tell of the next ones that Jesus appeared to in Mark 16:
12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.
--- (Here is the evidence that the Gospel writers shared their writings because this experience is recorded in Luke’s Gospel.)

--- Peter and Mark had been in Rome for a few years before Paul and Luke came. --- And since Luke also finished his Gospel account in Rome before publishing it in Greece, --- Peter and Mark would have seen what Luke had written, --- and verse 12 referred to this appearance of Jesus in Luke 24:
13 Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them.
16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.
17 And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?”
18 Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?”
19 And He said to them, “What things?”
So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him.
21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened.
22 Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us.
23 When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive.
24 And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
28 Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther.
29 But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them.

30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them.
31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.
32 And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?”
33 So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,
34 saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!”
35 And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.
(Again, enough for now.)


Placid



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 2:38pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


I think your story would have more validity if there was an impartial witness to it...

I think it is funny to see you using this argument when it is what I have been saying to you, yet when I say it, you reject it. Shocked


If you heard "reports" that Hindu idols were drinking milk, would you believe these as well, because as you say, 'who are you to judge what goes on in other parts of the world"?

Why are you so afraid to answer this question??



islam...

I have answered your question, as I have been answering your questions... I neither believe, nor disbelieve... there are things not within my realm to judge.  Things I have neither exposure to, nor knowledge of.

I have no reason not to believe, or to believe.  Just because it seems beyond my belief does not mean it is not possible.  Was it possible that Moses' staff was turned into a snake?  Was it possible truly that the reed sea parted for the Israelites to pass but closed upon the egyptians?  Do I have proof?  Or do I have belief?  Does my belief make a thing true or untrue?  Who am I to discard the belief of others as untrue when I have no first hand exposure or knowledge?
There are statues of the Virgin Mary that are said to weep tears of blood.

You see, people have answered your questions, it's just that your ears are blocked because you are not hearing what you want to hear, and you do not stretch your mind to take in the answers that are given.  You are not truly seeking to understand other people.

Salaam... seek peace,
CH


I have asked for proof.  None of you have provided that.  Your best answer is essentially "I can't say..." 

So, you are willing to at least give credence to reports of Hindu idols miraculously drinking milk.  Would you be willing to research this phenomenon?  Would be willing to research the claims of statues of Mary weeping blood?  In short, would you be willing to investigate all reports of "miracles", regardless of the religion of the people involved, from an unbiased and impartial point of view?  Or would you investigate reports of Hindu miracles with a certain level of bias (such as thinking in the back of your mind that these reports cannot be true)?

I wonder if the other Christians on this forum are willing to do the same.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 7:59pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum.
MahditheSeeker claims that the day he will find a "true believer" anywhere in the universe (based on Mark 16:15) he will believe the Bible, and islamispeace claims he feels the same way.

MARK 16:15-18 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well" 

I want to preface the following by stating I believe this was meant for the early church, and these signs were meant to demonstrate God's power to the unbelievers. I do not believe that Christians today are called to do these things, although I do believe that in some cases God does these things through people.


Walaikum as-salaam. 

I understand how you feel, but the fact is that even if the verses only applied to the "early church", they were not completely fulfilled.  How many people in the "early church" were able to drink poison and survive.  Some of the Christians on the forum have pointed out that Paul was not bitten by a snake when its latched on to his arm (Acts 28:5-6).  There are also examples in Acts of Christians healing the sick.  But, there are no examples of Christians drinking poison, whether on purpose or by force, and surviving.  If the verses from Mark 16 only applied to the early church, why were they not completely fulfilled? 

Originally posted by TG12345

Having said this, you claim that if you find a person anywhere in the universe doing the things in Mark 16:15, you will believe the Bible.


Yes, let's see if you can provide examples. Smile

Originally posted by TG12345

James Nye from Mail Online visited a pentecostal church in the US whose members have handled poisonous snakes and drank strychinine during servcies... and continue to do so. It is one of many such churches, which takes Mark 16:15 literally and believes it applies to believers in the 20th/21st century.

Between 1920s and when this article was written, around 100 church snake bite related deaths have been documented. However, thousands have handled these snakes.

It is estimated that up to 100 people have died in the 100 or so years since the practice began, which supporters claim is a small number considering thousands of worshipers have handled thousands of deadly snakes in that time.

Also, the snake handlers also take in strychinine.

Aware of the public fascination with serpent handling, Wolford wanted to use his platform to spread his beliefs to a new younger congregation.

But, even if holding the rattlesnakes and copperheads wasn't dangerous enough, serpent handlers also ingest deadly strychnine during services.

'In my life I’ve probably drunk two gallons of it,' said Wolford.



I must say that I am disappointed.  I am fully aware of these "snake handlers" and they don't want me to convert to Christianity. 

There are some issues which you have overlooked that prove that this phenomenon of "snake handling" is no "miracle".  The article in the DailyMail points out:

"When a worshiper is bitten by a snake and dies, congregation members accept it as God's decision that it was time for that person to die."

What this shows is that these people expect deaths to occur, and they do occur.  Yet, would not the fact that hundreds of people have died show that this is not a miracle?  These people have even convinced themselves that the deaths do not mean that the promise of Mark 16 is wrong, but that it is God's will.  It turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Also, the article clearly states that most people do not handle snakes at the services:

"Not everyone who attends the high energy services will handle snakes..."

It also needs to be pointed out that snakes are highly unpredictable.  According to an article in DiscoveryNews:

"Experts say there’s no sure way to tell when a venomous serpent like the timber rattlesnake -- the kind that probably killed Wolford -- will strike. Nor is it easy to tell whether you’ll get a harmless “dry bite," or a deadly injection of toxins that can kill a full-grown human within hours." http://news.discovery.com/human/snake-handler-wolford-120530.html - [1]

Finally, I am sure you have heard of so-called "snake charmers" in places like India.  Would the fact that these people are able to handle cobras make you believe that they have some divine power?  Probably not.  Here are a couple of videos which show cobras and humans in close contact.  The second video is both shocking and scary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVEhnoYJtok - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVEhnoYJtok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxkYmD-Krmo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxkYmD-Krmo

Regarding the claim of drinking strychnine and surviving, I think it is very telling that Wolford (the guy who recently died from a snake bite) did not reveal how much strychnine he drank at any one time.  He only made the vague statement that he had drank "two gallons" in his life.  I point this out because strychnine can be deadly at different amounts for different people.  According to one source:

"The lethal does for adults varies.  The minimal oral human lethal dose ranged from 30 to 120mg.  When given intravenously or subcutaneously, the lethal dose is significantly lower." http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/pim507.htm - [2]

Moreover, he claimed that he "drank" strychnine, but strychnine is a powder, not a liquid.  Therefore, he must have been mixing it with a liquid, possibly water, and then ingesting it.  But how much he ingested at any one time was never revealed.  Clearly, this guy was hiding something.

Also, Wolford admitted that after "drinking" strychnine, he had muscle spasms and trouble breathing.  Clearly, it was harming his body even if it was not a fatal dose.  Yet Mark 16 clearly states that true believers will be able to drink poison and not be harmed, let alone die:

"...they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”" (Mark 16:18)

Since he had symptoms and was in a lot of pain, he did not meet the qualifications of Mark 16:18. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I believe the Bible is true, but not on the basis of such things. It is true because it is God's word and shows God for Who He is and what He has done for us, this is what I believe

I understand but from the above proofs, it is clear that the relevant verses from Mark 16 cannot be "true".  It is also known that there are "snake charmers" in places like India, and these people are not Christians.  Also, as I pointed out before, the verses in question are not even authentic, which is one more reason to question their veracity.  How can a forged passage be considered to be "God's word"?

Originally posted by TG12345

However, you stated you would believe it to be true if you found one person in the entire universe who can do the things in Mark 16. Well, there certainly are Christians today who can handle snakes and drink poison without being harmed.

All you showed was that these Christians are playing with fire.  The fact that many have died proves that there is no "miracle".  Those who have survived are simply lucky.  It has more to do with the unpredictability of snakes than with God's power.  Based on this, you have not provided any rational reason for me to convert to Christianity.  Smile

If you think these people are proof that the miracles in Mark 16 can happen, then you should logically convert to Hinduism, because they do essentially the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tydOJm4_E88 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tydOJm4_E88

Notice how the guy is holding the snake as if he was holding a child!



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 9:19pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Muhammad said that the dates should be taken in the morning, according to the hadith. If the man was bitten by a scorpion sometime not in the morning, then it would have been senseless to offer him the dates. Number 663 and 664 do not say to take the dates after something bad has happened, but to take them in the morning and if one does so, one will not be touched by poison or magic.


But as I pointed out, if by "poison", he meant any harmful substance, then he would have also stated that the person who eats dates would be protected from snake bites and scorpion stings.  Yet, he didn't. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Number 5083 makes clear that the dates contain antidote affects in the morning.


And that confirms that dates have a medicinal, not spiritual, value.  The medicinal value is well-known, as I have already shown.

Originally posted by TG12345

Sunan Abu Dawud is not an authentic hadith, unlike Bukhari and Muslim, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up. The man who came to see Muhammad for help was not suffering from poisoning, but from heart sickness.


I never said that all of Sunan Abu Dawud is not authentic.  Rather, I said that some hadiths are considered to be weak. 

The reason I brought it up was to prove further that dates were considered to have medicinal value.  That is why Imam Bukhari put the hadiths you mentioned in the section under "Medicine".  Moreover, I showed scientific evidence that dates have beneficial effects on the heart, so the hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud has scientific backing. 

Originally posted by TG12345

There are some Christians who handle poisonous snakes and do not get bitten. There are some Christians who drink poison like strychnine and do not get harmed or die (see previous post, when it passes the review lol).  There are cases where people have claimed to have been healed by prayer.


Then perhaps you can explain why Hindus can also handle snakes and not get bitten. 

Originally posted by TG12345

In the Book of Acts, the early church did all these things, and it was on a widespread scale. I believe that Mark 16 was in regards to the early church, and I cited Biblical scholars who agree.


Please show me where the "early Church" members were able to drink poison and not be harmed.

Originally posted by TG12345

Did the hadith say that 7 dates in the morning protect against liver malondialdehyde, or that they protect against magic and poison?


You missed the point.  You are claiming that by "poison", he meant any harmful substance.  I showed that this is not the case, but rather that the hadiths are saying that dates have general medical benefit.  To support this, I showed a peer-reviewed study which confirmed that date seeds have a protective effect against certain toxic chemicals in the body. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I am basing it on what the hadith says.
 

Yet, you have not provided a single Islamic source which states that Muslims can drink all the poison they want and still be protected if they eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning.  There is simply no evidence that the hadiths were ever interpreted that way.  Therefore, you are interpreting them on your own authority.  Imam Bukhari interpreted the hadith as saying that dates have a medicinal benefit and that as a result, Muslims should eat them on a regular basis.  In any case, there is scientific evidence that dates can provide a protective effect against certain toxic substances.  You have not been able to refute this.

Originally posted by TG12345

No offense intended, but you need to start taking your own advice. Albert Barnes knows more about the Bible than you do, yet you ignored his words that I posted earlier.


When did you post this?  I must have missed it.  I have looked at Barnes' Commentary and it actually creates more problems that it solves:

"They shall take up serpents - When it is necessary for the sake of establishing religion, they shall handle poisonous reptiles without injury, thus showing that God was with them to keep them from harm. This was literally fulfilled when Paul shook the viper from his hand. See http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/28-5.htm - Acts 28:5-6 .

Any deadly thing - Any poison usually causing death.

Shall not hurt them - There is a similar promise in http://bible.cc/isaiah/43-2.htm - Isaiah 43:2 .

They shall lay hands on the sick ... - See instances of this in the Acts of the Apostles, http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/3-6.htm - Acts 3:6-7 ; http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/5-15.htm - Acts 5:15 , etc." http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/mark/16.htm - [1]

Nothing in the commentary states that these verses only applied to the early church.  All he says was that the promise was partially fulfilled by Paul and the other apostles.  Notice also that he is silent on the "drinking poison" part.  Why was that part not fulfilled?  

So, how can you insist from Barnes' Notes that the promise of Mark 16 only applied to the early church?  Meanwhile, you also attempted to show above that some Christians in the modern world do perform these miracles (allegedly).  So which is it?  Did Mark 16 apply only to the early church or does it apply even today?

Originally posted by TG12345

The other two hadith you showed did absolutely nothing to dispel the notion that dates prevent poison from harming a person if they are eaten in the morning.

The hadiths are true, as I showed.  Dates do have a protective effect against harmful substances like liver malondialdehyde.  Your insistence that if must apply to all poisons known to man is based on your own interpretation and is not supported by Islamic sources.  I challenge you to provide one example of Islamic scholars advising Muslims to eat dates in the morning and then drink poison.  If you can provide this, then you will have proven your point.  Of course, I know that you will fail for the simple reason that Islamic scholars have never interpreted the hadiths that way.  That is your own interpretation. 

If I may ask, how did you find those hadiths?  Did you search a hadith database or did you read them on an Islamic website?

Originally posted by TG12345

Read Barne's commentary that I pasted for you. Furthermore, there are people who do drink poison and church and survive. However, these signs were meant for the early church.

I still can't find where you pasted it, but it doesn't matter, since I have already pasted it as well.  There is nothing in the commentary to indicate that the verses only applied to the early church.  It just states that they were partially fulfilled by the apostles.  There is also the problem of one of the miracles not being fulfilled.  No where in Acts or the other books is it mentioned that an apostle drank poison and survived.  Therefore, Mark 16 was not completely fulfilled by the early church.

Originally posted by TG12345

I'm not ready to renounce God, and never will be.
 

Don't get me wrong.  I don't want you to renounce God.  I am simply pointing out that by changing the subject from Mark 16 to the hadiths, you were not solving the problem of Mark 16. As a result, we would both need to renounce our faiths (if you were right about the hadiths).






-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 8:37am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...[/Quote]

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum.
MahditheSeeker claims that the day he will find a "true believer" anywhere in the universe (based on Mark 16:15) he will believe the Bible, and islamispeace claims he feels the same way.

MARK 16:15-18 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well" 

I want to preface the following by stating I believe this was meant for the early church, and these signs were meant to demonstrate God's power to the unbelievers. I do not believe that Christians today are called to do these things, although I do believe that in some cases God does these things through people.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Walaikum as-salaam. 

I understand how you feel, but the fact is that even if the verses only applied to the "early church", they were not completely fulfilled.  How many people in the "early church" were able to drink poison and survive.  Some of the Christians on the forum have pointed out that Paul was not bitten by a snake when its latched on to his arm (Acts 28:5-6).  There are also examples in Acts of Christians healing the sick.  But, there are no examples of Christians drinking poison, whether on purpose or by force, and surviving.  If the verses from Mark 16 only applied to the early church, why were they not completely fulfilled?  [/Quote]

Because the examples were not mentioned in the Book of Acts does not mean they didn't happen at all. The examples of casting out demons, healing, speaking in tongues and Paul briefly holding a snake all did happen so it isn't illogical to assume that some in the early church drank poison as well. The Book of Acts does not claim to document every single event that happened in the early church.

The passage in Mark did not say that Christians will survive snake bites, it says they will be able to pick up snakes. A snake latched on to Paul's hand. He shook it off. It was in his hands, he shook it off. Nothing more nothing less.


Originally posted by TG12345

Having said this, you claim that if you find a person anywhere in the universe doing the things in Mark 16:15, you will believe the Bible.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Yes, let's see if you can provide examples. Smile[/Quote]

[Quote=TG12345]
James Nye from Mail Online visited a pentecostal church in the US whose members have handled poisonous snakes and drank strychinine during servcies... and continue to do so. It is one of many such churches, which takes Mark 16:15 literally and believes it applies to believers in the 20th/21st century.

Between 1920s and when this article was written, around 100 church snake bite related deaths have been documented. However, thousands have handled these snakes.

It is estimated that up to 100 people have died in the 100 or so years since the practice began, which supporters claim is a small number considering thousands of worshipers have handled thousands of deadly snakes in that time.

Also, the snake handlers also take in strychinine.

Aware of the public fascination with serpent handling, Wolford wanted to use his platform to spread his beliefs to a new younger congregation.

But, even if holding the rattlesnakes and copperheads wasn't dangerous enough, serpent handlers also ingest deadly strychnine during services.

'In my life I’ve probably drunk two gallons of it,' said Wolford. [/Quote]


[QUOTE=islamispeaceI must say that I am disappointed.  I am fully aware of these "snake handlers" and they don't want me to convert to Christianity. 

There are some issues which you have overlooked that prove that this phenomenon of "snake handling" is no "miracle".  The article in the DailyMail points out:

"When a worshiper is bitten by a snake and dies, congregation members accept it as God's decision that it was time for that person to die."

What this shows is that these people expect deaths to occur, and they do occur.  Yet, would not the fact that hundreds of people have died show that this is not a miracle?  These people have even convinced themselves that the deaths do not mean that the promise of Mark 16 is wrong, but that it is God's will.  It turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Also, the article clearly states that most people do not handle snakes at the services:

"Not everyone who attends the high energy services will handle snakes..."

It also needs to be pointed out that snakes are highly unpredictable.  According to an article in DiscoveryNews:

"Experts say there’s no sure way to tell when a venomous serpent like the timber rattlesnake -- the kind that probably killed Wolford -- will strike. Nor is it easy to tell whether you’ll get a harmless “dry bite," or a deadly injection of toxins that can kill a full-grown human within hours." http://news.discovery.com/human/snake-handler-wolford-120530.html - [1]

Finally, I am sure you have heard of so-called "snake charmers" in places like India.  Would the fact that these people are able to handle cobras make you believe that they have some divine power?  Probably not.  Here are a couple of videos which show cobras and humans in close contact.  The second video is both shocking and scary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVEhnoYJtok - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVEhnoYJtok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxkYmD-Krmo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxkYmD-Krmo

Regarding the claim of drinking strychnine and surviving, I think it is very telling that Wolford (the guy who recently died from a snake bite) did not reveal how much strychnine he drank at any one time.  He only made the vague statement that he had drank "two gallons" in his life.  I point this out because strychnine can be deadly at different amounts for different people.  According to one source:

"The lethal does for adults varies.  The minimal oral human lethal dose ranged from 30 to 120mg.  When given intravenously or subcutaneously, the lethal dose is significantly lower." http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/pim507.htm - [2]

Moreover, he claimed that he "drank" strychnine, but strychnine is a powder, not a liquid.  Therefore, he must have been mixing it with a liquid, possibly water, and then ingesting it.  But how much he ingested at any one time was never revealed.  Clearly, this guy was hiding something.

Also, Wolford admitted that after "drinking" strychnine, he had muscle spasms and trouble breathing.  Clearly, it was harming his body even if it was not a fatal dose.  Yet Mark 16 clearly states that true believers will be able to drink poison and not be harmed, let alone die:

"...they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”" (Mark 16:18)

Since he had symptoms and was in a lot of pain, he did not meet the qualifications of Mark 16:18. [/Quote]

  I did not say that the church members' actions were 'miraculous', I was simply responding to the claim that MahditheSeeker made and you backed up that if you saw one person doing what Mark 16 says you will believe the Bible.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=6

Mark 16 does not say that people will not die from handling snakes, it says they will handle them. That is what some people (Christians as well as non-Christians) do.

The poison example may not be a good one, I agree. But there are some Christians who do handle snakes, thus one could argue fulfilling the passage in Mark and meaning he`d have to believe the Bible if I were to hold you to your word.

[Quote=TG12345]I believe the Bible is true, but not on the basis of such things. It is true because it is God's word and shows God for Who He is and what He has done for us, this is what I believe


[QUOTE=islamispeace]I understand but from the above proofs, it is clear that the relevant verses from Mark 16 cannot be "true".  It is also known that there are "snake charmers" in places like India, and these people are not Christians.  Also, as I pointed out before, the verses in question are not even authentic, which is one more reason to question their veracity.  How can a forged passage be considered to be "God's word"? [/Quote]

I was responding to Mahdi's statement that he would believe the Bible if he saw people doing what was written in Mark 16. I showed you an example of that (people handling snakes).

What evidence do you have that the verses are not authentic?

[Quote=TG12345]However, you stated you would believe it to be true if you found one person in the entire universe who can do the things in Mark 16. Well, there certainly are Christians today who can handle snakes and drink poison without being harmed.

[QUOTE=islamispeace]All you showed was that these Christians are playing with fire.  The fact that many have died proves that there is no "miracle".  Those who have survived are simply lucky.  It has more to do with the unpredictability of snakes than with God's power.  Based on this, you have not provided any rational reason for me to convert to Christianity.  Smile

If you think these people are proof that the miracles in Mark 16 can happen, then you should logically convert to Hinduism, because they do essentially the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tydOJm4_E88 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tydOJm4_E88

Notice how the guy is holding the snake as if he was holding a child!


I didn't say that the snake handling churches in Appalachia are 'miraculous', and as I stated earlier, I believe these signs were meant for the early church, and that in some cases God still works through people today. I did not say that this was what was happening in Appalachia.

"I want to preface the following by stating I believe this was meant for the early church, and these signs were meant to demonstrate God's power to the unbelievers. I do not believe that Christians today are called to do these things, although I do believe that in some cases God does these things through people."

I'm not the one who stated that if I can find one person doing what is written in Mark 16, I'll believe the Bible. MahditheSeeker did. And you backed him up on that.

I gave you an example of people picking up snakes with their hands, since the passage says true believers will be able to do that. If I were to hold you to your word, I would demand you convert.

But of course I won't do that. I would recommend though being more careful with what you write. Wink

And I'll keep praying for you. Smile



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 10:52am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...


Originally posted by TG12345

Muhammad said that the dates should be taken in the morning, according to the hadith. If the man was bitten by a scorpion sometime not in the morning, then it would have been senseless to offer him the dates. Number 663 and 664 do not say to take the dates after something bad has happened, but to take them in the morning and if one does so, one will not be touched by poison or magic.


Originally posted by islamispeace

But as I pointed out, if by "poison", he meant any harmful substance, then he would have also stated that the person who eats dates would be protected from snake bites and scorpion stings.  Yet, he didn't. 

Why would he have had to state that?

If the man who was bitten by the scorpion did not have dates that morning, feeding him dates would have not been effective, since the hadith states a person will unaffected by poison or magic if he eats 7 of them in the morning.

If the person bitten by the scorpion had something else for or before breakfast, feeding him dates wouldn't have done him any good.



Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582



"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: While we were on one of our journeys, we dismounted at a place where a slave girl came and said, "The chief of this tribe has been stung by a scorpion and our men are not present; is there anybody among you who can treat him (by reciting something)?" Then one of our men went along with her though we did not think that he knew any such treatment. But he treated the chief by reciting something, and the sick man recovered whereupon he gave him thirty sheep and gave us milk to drink (as a reward). When he returned, we asked our friend, "Did you know how to treat with the recitation of something?" He said, "No, but I treated him only with the recitation of the Mother of the Book (i.e., Al-Fatiha)." We said, "Do not say anything (about it) till we reach or ask the Prophet so when we reached Medina, we mentioned that to the Prophet (in order to know whether the sheep which we had taken were lawful to take or not). The Prophet said, "How did he come to know that it (Al-Fatiha) could be used for treatment? Distribute your reward and assign for me one share thereof as well."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 61, Number 529)


Originally posted by TG12345

Number 5083 makes clear that the dates contain antidote affects in the morning.


Originally posted by islamispeace

And that confirms that dates have a medicinal, not spiritual, value.  The medicinal value is well-known, as I have already shown.

But the #663 and 664 does not say they have antidote effects, but that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be affected by poison or magic that day.

As medicine, they are supposed to protect people from poison and spells as long as you have 7 of them in the AM.

That would not work with many poisons. And if MahdiTheSeeker or you or me or anyone would dare try that out on anyone, we'd be either in prison or an insane asylum.

If this is medical advice, it is not very sound. If a person were to take it as literally as you some Muslims expect Christians to take Mark 16:18, there would be a lot of dead people.

Originally posted by TG12345

Sunan Abu Dawud is not an authentic hadith, unlike Bukhari and Muslim, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up. The man who came to see Muhammad for help was not suffering from poisoning, but from heart sickness.


Originally posted by islamispeace

I never said that all of Sunan Abu Dawud is not authentic.  Rather, I said that some hadiths are considered to be weak. 

As a bit of an aside, how do you know which are which?

Originally posted by islamispeace

The reason I brought it up was to prove further that dates were considered to have medicinal value.  That is why Imam Bukhari put the hadiths you mentioned in the section under "Medicine".  Moreover, I showed scientific evidence that dates have beneficial effects on the heart, so the hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud has scientific backing. 

So you showed that dates have medicinal value. That's great, but it isn't what we were discussing. I never claimed they don't have medicinal value, and in the hadiths I cited, Muhammad was not arguing that they do... he was arguing that if one takes 7 of them in the morning he or she will be immune to poison and magic for that day. That is simply not true.

Originally posted by TG12345

There are some Christians who handle poisonous snakes and do not get bitten. There are some Christians who drink poison like strychnine and do not get harmed or die (see previous post, when it passes the review lol).  There are cases where people have claimed to have been healed by prayer.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Then perhaps you can explain why Hindus can also handle snakes and not get bitten. 

Perhaps, like some or most of the Christians who handle snakes today, they are lucky. Perhaps God does not want them to die, so He is protecting them.

I believe the signs were meant for the early church, and I think there are some cases where God does act this way still today. This may or may not be what is happening in Appalachia.

I'm not the one who claims his belief on whether the Bible is true or not true is based of whether Christians today can handle snakes.

Originally posted by TG12345

In the Book of Acts, the early church did all these things, and it was on a widespread scale. I believe that Mark 16 was in regards to the early church, and I cited Biblical scholars who agree.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Please show me where the "early Church" members were able to drink poison and not be harmed.

There are no specific examples of that in the Book of Acts. Show me please an example from the hadiths where a person was not harmed by magic due to him or her eating 7 dates in the morning.

Originally posted by TG12345

Did the hadith say that 7 dates in the morning protect against liver malondialdehyde, or that they protect against magic and poison?


Originally posted by islamispeace

You missed the point.  You are claiming that by "poison", he meant any harmful substance.  I showed that this is not the case, but rather that the hadiths are saying that dates have general medical benefit.  To support this, I showed a peer-reviewed study which confirmed that date seeds have a protective effect against certain toxic chemicals in the body.

I am claiming that by poison, Muhammad meant poison. A poison is a harmful substance.

I am not arguing that date seeds do not have a protective element against certain toxic chemicals in the body, I am arguing it is simply not true that eating 7 of them in the morning will protect you from being harmed by poison later that day. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I am basing it on what the hadith says.
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

Yet, you have not provided a single Islamic source which states that Muslims can drink all the poison they want and still be protected if they eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning.

Where did I say the hadiths state Muslims can drink all the poison they want and still be protected if they eat 7 ajwa dates that morning? I said, if the hadith is true, a Muslim (or any person for that matter) who eats 7 dates in the morning will not be harmed by poison that day. I don't believe that to be true, and I wouldn't encourage anyone to try it.

Originally posted by islamispeace

  There is simply no evidence that the hadiths were ever interpreted that way.  Therefore, you are interpreting them on your own authority.   Imam Bukhari interpreted the hadith as saying that dates have a medicinal benefit and that as a result, Muslims should eat them on a regular basis.

Where did he say that #663 and #664 mean that dates have a medicinal benefit, and not that they will not protect against poison?

Originally posted by islamispeace

  In any case, there is scientific evidence that dates can provide a protective effect against certain toxic substances.  You have not been able to refute this.

Nor have I ever argued that they don't or tried to refute it.

Originally posted by TG12345

No offense intended, but you need to start taking your own advice. Albert Barnes knows more about the Bible than you do, yet you ignored his words that I posted earlier.


Originally posted by islamispeace

When did you post this?  I must have missed it.  I have looked at Barnes' Commentary and it actually creates more problems that it solves:

"They shall take up serpents - When it is necessary for the sake of establishing religion, they shall handle poisonous reptiles without injury, thus showing that God was with them to keep them from harm. This was literally fulfilled when Paul shook the viper from his hand. See http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/28-5.htm - Acts 28:5-6 .

Any deadly thing - Any poison usually causing death.

Shall not hurt them - There is a similar promise in http://bible.cc/isaiah/43-2.htm - Isaiah 43:2 .

They shall lay hands on the sick ... - See instances of this in the Acts of the Apostles, http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/3-6.htm - Acts 3:6-7 ; http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/5-15.htm - Acts 5:15 , etc." http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/mark/16.htm - [1]

Nothing in the commentary states that these verses only applied to the early church.  All he says was that the promise was partially fulfilled by Paul and the other apostles.  Notice also that he is silent on the "drinking poison" part.  Why was that part not fulfilled?  

So, how can you insist from Barnes' Notes that the promise of Mark 16 only applied to the early church?

I posted his commentary here:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=4

If you read the commentary on verse 17 (that I coincidentally pasted as well on the above page), you will see he believed it applied to the early church. I will paste it again for your convenience.

The problem is not with the commentary, but with you looking only at its explanation of one verse, while missing the others...

http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/mark/16.htm - Barnes' Notes on the Bible

And these signs - These miracles. These evidences that they are sent from God.

Them that believe - The apostles, and those in the primitive age who were endowed with like power. This promise was fulfilled if it can be shown that these signs followed in the case of any who believed, and it is not necessary to suppose that they would follow in the case of all. The meaning is, that they would be the result of faith, or of the belief of the gospel. It is true that they were. These signs were shown in the case of the apostles and early Christians. The infidel cannot say that the promise has not been fulfilled unless he can show that this never occurred; the Christian should be satisfied that the promise was fulfilled if these miracles were ever actually wrought, though they do not occur now; and the believer now should not expect a miracle in his case. Miracles were necessary for the establishment of religion in the world; they are not necessary for its continuance now.

In my name - By my authority, and using the power that I would in such cases, if bodily present. This was done; and in this they differed essentially from the manner in which Jesus himself wrought miracles. He did it in "his own name," and as possessing original, underived authority. See the account of his stilling the sea ( http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/8-26.htm - Matthew 8:26 , etc.); of his healing the sick http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/9-5.htm - Matthew 9:5-6 ; of his raising Lazarus, http://niv.scripturetext.com/john/11.htm - John 11 . The prophets spoke "in the name of the Lord." The apostles did likewise, http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/3-6.htm - Acts 3:6 , etc. There was, therefore, an important difference between Jesus and all the other messengers that God has sent into the world. He acted in his own name; they in the name of another. He wielded his own power; they were the instruments by which God put forth the omnipotence of his arm to save. He was therefore God; they were men of like passions as other men, http://bible.cc/acts/14-15.htm - Acts 14:15 .

Shall they cast out devils - See the notes at http://bible.cc/matthew/4-24.htm - Matthew 4:24 . Compare http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/16-16.htm - Acts 16:16-18 .

Shall speak with new tongues - Shall speak other languages than their native language. This was remarkably fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, http://niv.scripturetext.com/acts/2-4.htm - Acts 2:4-11 . It existed, also, in other places. See http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/12-10.htm - 1 Corinthians 12:10 .

http://bible.cc/mark/16-17.htm

That drinking of poisons is not mentioned in Acts does not mean it didn't happen. The other things did, so I have no reason to assume it didn't happen at some point in the ministry of the early church.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Meanwhile, you also attempted to show above that some Christians in the modern world do perform these miracles (allegedly).  So which is it?  Did Mark 16 apply only to the early church or does it apply even today?

As I said previously, it applied to the early church. I believe God still may make things like that happen sometimes today. However, the signs were meant mostly for the early believers, and as the Book of Acts attests, they did do these things.

Originally posted by TG12345

The other two hadith you showed did absolutely nothing to dispel the notion that dates prevent poison from harming a person if they are eaten in the morning.

Originally posted by islamispeace

The hadiths are true, as I showed.  Dates do have a protective effect against harmful substances like liver malondialdehyde.  Your insistence that if must apply to all poisons known to man is based on your own interpretation and is not supported by Islamic sources.  I challenge you to provide one example of Islamic scholars advising Muslims to eat dates in the morning and then drink poison.  If you can provide this, then you will have proven your point.  Of course, I know that you will fail for the simple reason that Islamic scholars have never interpreted the hadiths that way.  That is your own interpretation.

Dates protecting against liver malondialdehyde, but not true for other poisons. If the passage said they are good for some poisons, it would be true. But it just says "poison".

The passage doesn't tell Muslims to eat 7 dates and drink poison, it tells them if they eat 7 dates in the morning they will not be harmed by poison. 

I am not arguing whether or not Islamic scholars advise Muslims to eat poison or feed poison to friends after ingesting 7 dates in the AM, that is not the issue.

The issue is that Muhammad said that after a person eats 7 awja dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by poison later that day. He didn`t say that these statements apply only to a certain kind of poison, he used `poison`, which is a general term.

Let`s say if a doctor gave you a prescription to take (like an antibiotic, for example) to help fight off an infection of some sort. He would tell you `take these pills 3 times a day for x number of days, and it will help with this inflammation`. That would be medically sound. If he gave you the pills and said `take these pills 3 times a day for x number of days, and disease will not harm you`, he would be an ***** and could be probably sued for malpractice. It wouldn`t matter how a person interprets or misinterprets his words, if he said the pill will ensure disease will not harm you he would be wrong, plain and simple. The pill would protect against the inflammation, but not against other kinds of disease or disease in general, which is what is understood by someone saying `if you take this disease will not harm you`.

Originally posted by islamispeace

If I may ask, how did you find those hadiths?  Did you search a hadith database or did you read them on an Islamic website?

My buddy Robert Spencer emailed them to me, and then sent me to IC to torment Muslims. Shocked

LOL no just kidding. I was reading through Sahih Bukhari (http://sahih-bukhari.com/) and came across these hadith which I found interesting to say the least. I set them aside, then I joined this site and learned of this discussion. I tried looking for them again, and found them on the site listed below.

Originally posted by TG12345

Read Barne's commentary that I pasted for you. Furthermore, there are people who do drink poison and church and survive. However, these signs were meant for the early church.

Originally posted by islamispeace

I still can't find where you pasted it, but it doesn't matter, since I have already pasted it as well.  There is nothing in the commentary to indicate that the verses only applied to the early church.  It just states that they were partially fulfilled by the apostles.  There is also the problem of one of the miracles not being fulfilled.  No where in Acts or the other books is it mentioned that an apostle drank poison and survived.  Therefore, Mark 16 was not completely fulfilled by the early church.

Answered already.

Originally posted by TG12345

I'm not ready to renounce God, and never will be.
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

Don't get me wrong.  I don't want you to renounce God.  I am simply pointing out that by changing the subject from Mark 16 to the hadiths, you were not solving the problem of Mark 16. As a result, we would both need to renounce our faiths (if you were right about the hadiths).



I responded to the claims about Mark 16, and MahditheSeeker`s ridiculous challenge, then I compared it to some things that Muhammad said, and posted a challenge of my own.

Glad to hear you aren`t trying to `atheisize me` Big%20smile
Salaam. Smile


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 2:06pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

I didn't say that the snake handling churches in Appalachia are 'miraculous', and as I stated earlier, I believe these signs were meant for the early church, and that in some cases God still works through people today. I did not say that this was what was happening in Appalachia.


Then why would use them to respond to the challenge that MahdiSeeker and I issued?  What do you think we were asking for if not actual (authentic) examples of these miracles being performed by modern Christians?

Originally posted by TG12345

I'm not the one who stated that if I can find one person doing what is written in Mark 16, I'll believe the Bible. MahditheSeeker did. And you backed him up on that.


Yes I did and you didn't prove that those people were actually performing miracles, as I showed.  You know full well what we were asking for, and you failed to provide authentic examples. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I gave you an example of people picking up snakes with their hands, since the passage says true believers will be able to do that. If I were to hold you to your word, I would demand you convert.


You could demand anything, but that does not mean you are entitled to it.  I showed that there is nothing "miraculous" in what those people do, because Hindus can do the same thing!  Therefore, you did not meet the challenge.  By the way, did those people "drive out demons" or "heal the sick"? 

Originally posted by TG12345

But of course I won't do that. I would recommend though being more careful with what you write. Wink


I would recommend that you read more carefully as well as research more carefully.  Tongue

Originally posted by TG12345

And I'll keep praying for you. Smile


No need to pray for me, my friend.  I am already blessed with faith and I am abundantly thankful to Allah (swt) for it.  No amount of prayer to Jesus will make me leave Islam.  There is a 0% chance of that ever happening, inshaAllah.

By the way, you did not answer my question about why there are no examples in the New Testament of any members of the early church being able to drink poison and surviving.  If your claim that Mark 16 only applied to the early church is true, then it was unfulfilled.  Even Barnes' Notes was silent on the issue.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...


Originally posted by TG12345

I didn't say that the snake handling churches in Appalachia are 'miraculous', and as I stated earlier, I believe these signs were meant for the early church, and that in some cases God still works through people today. I did not say that this was what was happening in Appalachia.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Then why would use them to respond to the challenge that MahdiSeeker and I issued?  What do you think we were asking for if not actual (authentic) examples of these miracles being performed by modern Christians?


Originally posted by TG12345

I'm not the one who stated that if I can find one person doing what is written in Mark 16, I'll believe the Bible. MahditheSeeker did. And you backed him up on that.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Yes I did and you didn't prove that those people were actually performing miracles, as I showed.  You know full well what we were asking for, and you failed to provide authentic examples. 

You asked for even one example of people doing things described in Mark 16. The passage in question describes people handling snakes. I showed you examples of Christians doing that today. MahditheSeeker said he would give his life to Jesus if he could find only one person doing these things. Plenty of people, Christians as well as non-Christians, handle snakes.


This is what he wrote:

MahditheSeeker


MARK 16;15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"




i am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

Then later:

MahditheSeeker

still waiting.all i am getting is excuses.guess there are no true believers on this forum.the day i find one anywhere in the universe, i will believe the Bible.


Then you came in to back him up:

islamispeace

Well said.  I feel the same way!


So I showed an example of Christians picking up snakes with their hands. He said if he finds one person who can do these things, he will give his life to Jesus, and later that he will believe the Bible. So I gave him an example.

I'm not saying he has to keep his word, and give his life to Jesus. I'd prefer if he (and you) did it because you believe in what the Bible teaches.

Originally posted by TG12345

I gave you an example of people picking up snakes with their hands, since the passage says true believers will be able to do that. If I were to hold you to your word, I would demand you convert.

Originally posted by islamispeaceYou could demand anything, but that does not mean you are entitled to it.  I showed that there is nothing miraculous in what those people do, because Hindus can do the same thing!  Therefore, you did not meet the challenge.  By the way, did those people drive out demons or heal the sick?  [/Quote


Where did I say that the snake handling in Appalachia is miraculous? Nowhere.

He didn't state if people can miraculously do what is in Mark 16, he will give his life to Jesus. He said if he can find one person who does such a thing, he will do so. I found him (and you) several examples.

Originally posted by TG12345

But of course I won't do that. I would recommend though being more careful with what you write. Wink

Where did I say that the snake handling in Appalachia is miraculous? Nowhere.

He didn't state if people can miraculously do what is in Mark 16, he will give his life to Jesus. He said if he can find one person who does such a thing, he will do so. I found him (and you) several examples.

Originally posted by TG12345

But of course I won't do that. I would recommend though being more careful with what you write. Wink


Originally posted by islamispeace

I would recommend that you read more carefully as well as research more carefully.  Tongue

I answered his silly challenge. Funny how he hasn't responded yet.

Originally posted by TG12345

And I'll keep praying for you. Smile


Originally posted by islamispeace

No need to pray for me, my friend.  I am already blessed with faith and I am abundantly thankful to Allah (swt) for it.  No amount of prayer to Jesus will make me leave Islam.  There is a 0% chance of that ever happening, inshaAllah.

I'll keep praying. Smile

[QUOTE=islamispeace]By the way, you did not answer my question about why there are no examples in the New Testament of any members of the early church being able to drink poison and surviving.  If your claim that Mark 16 only applied to the early church is true, then it was unfulfilled.  Even Barnes' Notes was silent on the issue.

Because it was not mentioned in the Book of Acts does not mean it didn't happen at all. Did you answer my question about documented accounts in the hadith of instances when awj dates stopped magic? Thanks.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 6:07pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Why would he have had to state that?

If the man who was bitten by the scorpion did not have dates that morning, feeding him dates would have not been effective, since the hadith states a person will unaffected by poison or magic if he eats 7 of them in the morning.

If the person bitten by the scorpion had something else for or before breakfast, feeding him dates wouldn't have done him any good.


Why not?  It would have been important to mention in that instance that dates have a protective effect against snake bites and scorpion stings.  In fact, in the hadith I mentioned about the scorpion sting, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not say that eating dates would have protected against the venom and did not advise the other people of that.  He only mentioned what the treatment was.  If dates were meant to protect against every single poisonous substance, this would have been the perfect time to mention it. 

Originally posted by TG12345

But the #663 and 664 does not say they have antidote effects, but that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be affected by poison or magic that day.

As medicine, they are supposed to protect people from poison and spells as long as you have 7 of them in the AM.

That would not work with many poisons. And if MahdiTheSeeker or you or me or anyone would dare try that out on anyone, we'd be either in prison or an insane asylum.

If this is medical advice, it is not very sound. If a person were to take it as literally as you some Muslims expect Christians to take Mark 16:18, there would be a lot of dead people.


Except that there is no example of a Muslim deliberately drinking poison after eating dates, while there are examples of Christians taking Mark 16 literally.  The reason for this is that there in nothing in the hadith to indicate that dates can protect against any poisonous substance like cyanide and that Muslims can deliberately drink poison and expect to survive.  That is why Imam Bukhari placed the hadith in the "Medicine" section. 

Originally posted by TG12345

As a bit of an aside, how do you know which are which?
   

That requires some research.  As far as I know, the hadith I mentioned is considered authentic.

Originally posted by TG12345

So you showed that dates have medicinal value. That's great, but it isn't what we were discussing. I never claimed they don't have medicinal value, and in the hadiths I cited, Muhammad was not arguing that they do... he was arguing that if one takes 7 of them in the morning he or she will be immune to poison and magic for that day. That is simply not true.


Just because you say "it isn't what we were discussing" doesn't make it so.  As I said, the hadiths were placed in the section under "Medicine".  I showed that dates have medicinal value.  How then can you insist that "it isn't what we were discussing"?  Your interpretation has no weight compared to Imam Bukhari's interpretation. 

You have yet to prove that any Islamic scholar has interpreted this hadith to mean that a Muslim can drink any poisonous substance and survive as long as he/she ate 7 ajwa dates in the morning.  That would be the easiest way for you to prove that your interpretation is true.

In fact, IslamQA compares the hadith to taking vaccinations to prevent disease.  As such, the hadith is interpreted to mean that dates have a medical use, as I have been saying all along:

"There is nothing wrong with giving medicine to ward off the feared disease, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, according to the saheeh hadeeth, “Whoever eats seven dates of Madeenah in the morning will not be harmed by witchcraft or poison.” This is a kind of warding off a problem before it happens. So if there is the fear of sickness and a person is vaccinated against an infection that is present in the land or elsewhere, there is nothing wrong with that, because it is a kind of protection." http://islamqa.com/en/ref/20276/ - [1]

Also, according to the website "HealthyMuslim", the famous Islamic scholar Ibn Qayyim:

"...said that dried http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/dates.cfm - - dates were one of the most nourishing of fruits for the body, and could strengthen the liver and clear a sore throat. He also said that they were especially beneficial when eaten with pine kernels. He mentioned that for those not used to eating http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/dates.cfm - - dates - like those who lived in http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/cold.cfm - - cold countries, they could cause negative effects like http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/headache.cfm - - headache , obstructions, and harm the http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/teeth.cfm - - teeth , but eating them with almond or poppy could reduce these effects.

Ibn al-Qayyim classed dried http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/dates.cfm - - dates as a http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/fruit.cfm - - fruit , food, http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/medicine.cfm - - medicine , drink." http://www.healthymuslim.com/articles/qsswx-ibn-al-qayyim-dates-are-a-nourishing-fruit.cfm - [2]

Notice that he did not say that dates could be used to protect a person against any poisonous substance.  The reason for this is that the hadiths have not been interpreted that way.  They have always been interpreted to mean that dates have medical benefits and as such, they should be eaten on a regular basis.

Originally posted by TG12345

There are no specific examples of that in the Book of Acts. Show me please an example from the hadiths where a person was not harmed by magic due to him or her eating 7 dates in the morning.

If there are no such examples in Acts, then how can you claim that Mark 16 applied to the "early church"?  Was it not an unfulfilled prophecy?

As far as I can tell, there are no examples of people eating ajwa dates and being protected from magic, but then, unlike Mark 16, the hadith was not meant to be a prophecy.  Instead, it was meant to be general advice. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I am claiming that by poison, Muhammad meant poison. A poison is a harmful substance.

I am not arguing that date seeds do not have a protective element against certain toxic chemicals in the body, I am arguing it is simply not true that eating 7 of them in the morning will protect you from being harmed by poison later that day.

You are arguing this on your merit, whereas I have shown overwhelming evidence that:

1.  Muhammad (pbuh) meant that dates have medical benefits,

2.  There is scientific proof that dates have medical benefits, and,

3.  No Islamic scholar has ever taught that Muslims can drink any poisonous substances and survive as long as they ate dates in the morning.

Originally posted by TG12345

Where did I say the hadiths state Muslims can drink all the poison they want and still be protected if they eat 7 ajwa dates that morning? I said, if the hadith is true, a Muslim (or any person for that matter) who eats 7 dates in the morning will not be harmed by poison that day. I don't believe that to be true, and I wouldn't encourage anyone to try it.

You have been claiming all this time that the hadiths teach that a Muslim who eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning will be protected from poison.  I have shown that it does not teach that.  Rather, I have shown that the hadiths meant that ajwa dates have medical benefits (and also has a protective effect against certain harmful substances), all of which has been scientifically validated.

Originally posted by TG12345

Where did he say that #663 and #664 mean that dates have a medicinal benefit, and not that they will not protect against poison?

As I have pointed out several times already, Imam Bukhari placed the hadiths under the "Medicine" section.  Moreover, I also showed other hadiths which state that dates have medicinal uses.

Originally posted by TG12345

That drinking of poisons is not mentioned in Acts does not mean it didn't happen. The other things did, so I have no reason to assume it didn't happen at some point in the ministry of the early church.
 

Then, you cannot prove that Mark 16 applied (in its entirety) to the early church.  Why would the Book of Acts mention the other miracles but not the miracle of drinking poison? 

Originally posted by TG12345

As I said previously, it applied to the early church. I believe God still may make things like that happen sometimes today. However, the signs were meant mostly for the early believers, and as the Book of Acts attests, they did do these things.

But the Book of Acts does not "attest" to any examples of Christians drinking poison and surviving. 

And if you believe that "God still may make things like that happen sometimes today", then you cannot logically insist that Mark 16 only applied to the "early church".

Originally posted by TG12345

Dates protecting against liver malondialdehyde, but not true for other poisons. If the passage said they are good for some poisons, it would be true. But it just says "poison".

The word used in the hadith is "summ", which has multiple meanings.  It can mean "poison", "toxin" or "venom" http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html - [3] .  You could just as easily translate the word as "toxin" or "venom".  Therefore, it is clear that the hadith is not saying that dates can be used as a preemptive antidote to any poison but is making a general statement of its medicinal benefits. 

Originally posted by TG12345

The passage doesn't tell Muslims to eat 7 dates and drink poison, it tells them if they eat 7 dates in the morning they will not be harmed by poison. 

I am not arguing whether or not Islamic scholars advise Muslims to eat poison or feed poison to friends after ingesting 7 dates in the AM, that is not the issue.
 

Of course it is!  It is much more important how Islamic scholars interpret the hadith than it is how you interpret it. 

Originally posted by TG12345

The issue is that Muhammad said that after a person eats 7 awja dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by poison later that day. He didn`t say that these statements apply only to a certain kind of poison, he used `poison`, which is a general term.Let`s say if a doctor gave you a prescription to take (like an antibiotic, for example) to help fight off an infection of some sort. He would tell you `take these pills 3 times a day for x number of days, and it will help with this inflammation`. That would be medically sound. If he gave you the pills and said `take these pills 3 times a day for x number of days, and disease will not harm you`, he would be an ***** and could be probably sued for malpractice. It wouldn`t matter how a person interprets or misinterprets his words, if he said the pill will ensure disease will not harm you he would be wrong, plain and simple. The pill would protect against the inflammation, but not against other kinds of disease or disease in general, which is what is understood by someone saying `if you take this disease will not harm you`.


That is a bad analogy given that Muhammad (pbuh) was not prescribing dates to anyone.  He was only stating that dates have medicinal value, which is true. 

Originally posted by TG12345

My buddy Robert Spencer emailed them to me, and then sent me to IC to torment Muslims. Shocked


Aha!  I knew it!  LOL

Originally posted by TG12345

I responded to the claims about Mark 16, and MahditheSeeker`s ridiculous challenge, then I compared it to some things that Muhammad said, and posted a challenge of my own.

You responded but your response left more questions than answers. 

As for your counter-challenge, it has no logical basis as no where in the hadith did it say that dates can be used as an antidote for any poison.  You are assuming that the word "poison" can mean any poison, but there is no evidence for this. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Glad to hear you aren`t trying to `atheisize me` Big%20smile
Salaam. Smile

It would do you no good but would rather move you further away from salvation!  Wink

Walaikum as-salaam.



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Allah Akhbar. At least that is something we can agree on. Smile

Originally posted by TG12345

Why would he have had to state that?

If the man who was bitten by the scorpion did not have dates that morning, feeding him dates would have not been effective, since the hadith states a person will unaffected by poison or magic if he eats 7 of them in the morning.

If the person bitten by the scorpion had something else for or before breakfast, feeding him dates wouldn't have done him any good.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Why not?  It would have been important to mention in that instance that dates have a protective effect against snake bites and scorpion stings.  In fact, in the hadith I mentioned about the scorpion sting, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not say that eating dates would have protected against the venom and did not advise the other people of that.  He only mentioned what the treatment was.  If dates were meant to protect against every single poisonous substance, this would have been the perfect time to mention it. 

It would have been a terrible time to say such a thing! If the man was bitten after the morning but a few good hours before night set in, it would have been pretty useless advice, kind of like "if you had done this you would have been ok"...

Originally posted by TG12345

But the #663 and 664 does not say they have antidote effects, but that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be affected by poison or magic that day.

As medicine, they are supposed to protect people from poison and spells as long as you have 7 of them in the AM.

That would not work with many poisons. And if MahdiTheSeeker or you or me or anyone would dare try that out on anyone, we'd be either in prison or an insane asylum.

If this is medical advice, it is not very sound. If a person were to take it as literally as you some Muslims expect Christians to take Mark 16:18, there would be a lot of dead people.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Except that there is no example of a Muslim deliberately drinking poison after eating dates, while there are examples of Christians taking Mark 16 literally.  The reason for this is that there in nothing in the hadith to indicate that dates can protect against any poisonous substance like cyanide and that Muslims can deliberately drink poison and expect to survive.  That is why Imam Bukhari placed the hadith in the "Medicine" section. 

Most Christians do not hold snakes or try to ingest poison, as we believe this was meant for the early church.

The hadith does not explain anywhere that by "poison" Muhammad did not mean deadly poisons, it says only that if you have 7 dates in the morning, poison will not harm you later that day.

Originally posted by TG12345

As a bit of an aside, how do you know which are which?
   

Originally posted by islamispeace

That requires some research.  As far as I know, the hadith I mentioned is considered authentic.

Can you show me some proof please? Thank you.


Originally posted by TG12345

So you showed that dates have medicinal value. That's great, but it isn't what we were discussing. I never claimed they don't have medicinal value, and in the hadiths I cited, Muhammad was not arguing that they do... he was arguing that if one takes 7 of them in the morning he or she will be immune to poison and magic for that day. That is simply not true.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Just because you say "it isn't what we were discussing" doesn't make it so.  As I said, the hadiths were placed in the section under "Medicine".  I showed that dates have medicinal value.  How then can you insist that "it isn't what we were discussing"?  Your interpretation has no weight compared to Imam Bukhari's interpretation. 

Please show me where Bukhari said, as you are claiming that the hadiths about not being harmed by poison do not apply to most poisons, and all they really mean is that dates have some antidotes.

Originally posted by islamispeace

You have yet to prove that any Islamic scholar has interpreted this hadith to mean that a Muslim can drink any poisonous substance and survive as long as he/she ate 7 ajwa dates in the morning.  That would be the easiest way for you to prove that your interpretation is true.

You have yet to prove that Bukhari meant that 663 and 664 apply to only some poisons and that if Muslims eat poison after eating 7 dates, then in spite of what Muhammad said, they would be harmed.

Originally posted by islamispeace

In fact, IslamQA compares the hadith to taking vaccinations to prevent disease.  As such, the hadith is interpreted to mean that dates have a medical use, as I have been saying all along:

"There is nothing wrong with giving medicine to ward off the feared disease, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, according to the saheeh hadeeth, “Whoever eats seven dates of Madeenah in the morning will not be harmed by witchcraft or poison.” This is a kind of warding off a problem before it happens. So if there is the fear of sickness and a person is vaccinated against an infection that is present in the land or elsewhere, there is nothing wrong with that, because it is a kind of protection." http://islamqa.com/en/ref/20276/ - [1]

Also, according to the website "HealthyMuslim", the famous Islamic scholar Ibn Qayyim:

"...said that dried http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/dates.cfm - Ibn al-Qayyim classed dried http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/dates.cfm - http://www.healthymuslim.com/articles/qsswx-ibn-al-qayyim-dates-are-a-nourishing-fruit.cfm - [2]

Notice that he did not say that dates could be used to protect a person against any poisonous substance.  The reason for this is that the hadiths have not been interpreted that way.  They have always been interpreted to mean that dates have medical benefits and as such, they should be eaten on a regular basis.

Ibn al-Qayyim also to my knowledge does not say that dates will not protet against poisonous substances. I didn't find anything on Islam QA saying this either.

IslamQA compares the dates to vaccines that are meant to ward off feared diseases. Would eating 7 dates a day prevent a person from catching the ebola virus? Malaria? AIDS?

The hadith does not say "disease", it says poison so comparing the 7 dates a day to a vaccination against disease isn't really addressing what Muhammad actually said.

Thanks btw for the "HealthyMuslim" site! It lists another fascinating thing Muhammad said.

Referring to eating seven Ajwa http://www.healthymuslim.com/tags/dates.cfm - anything until he reaches the evening." [Saheeh Muslim (2047)].

http://www.healthymuslim.com/articles/qsswx-ibn-al-qayyim-dates-are-a-nourishing-fruit.cfm

Allegedly, nothing can harm a person who eats 7 of these dates! My friend, this is not saying the dates only protect a person against some kind of toxins. Muhammad clearly stated these dates protect people from poison and magic in general, and he clearly believed this was true for most, if not all of them. More evidence below in the response.

Originally posted by TG12345

There are no specific examples of that in the Book of Acts. Show me please an example from the hadiths where a person was not harmed by magic due to him or her eating 7 dates in the morning.

Originally posted by islamispeace

If there are no such examples in Acts, then how can you claim that Mark 16 applied to the "early church"?  Was it not an unfulfilled prophecy?

Given the fact that healing, snake holding, speaking in tongues, everything else mentioned took place, I see no reason to assume why the poison drinking would also not have taken place.

Originally posted by islamispeace

As far as I can tell, there are no examples of people eating ajwa dates and being protected from magic, but then, unlike Mark 16, the hadith was not meant to be a prophecy.  Instead, it was meant to be general advice. 

It was actually meant to be medical advice. If there were no cases of 7 dates preventing magic, then one could argue it is useless advice because it has not been proven and there is no way to check if it is right or wrong.

Originally posted by TG12345

I am claiming that by poison, Muhammad meant poison. A poison is a harmful substance.

I am not arguing that date seeds do not have a protective element against certain toxic chemicals in the body, I am arguing it is simply not true that eating 7 of them in the morning will protect you from being harmed by poison later that day.

Originally posted by islamispeace

You are arguing this on your merit, whereas I have shown overwhelming evidence that:

1.  Muhammad (pbuh) meant that dates have medical benefits,

Which I did not deny, but it is not what 663 and 664 states.

Originally posted by islamispeace

2.  There is scientific proof that dates have medical benefits, and,

See above.

Originally posted by islamispeace

3.  No Islamic scholar has ever taught that Muslims can drink any poisonous substances and survive as long as they ate dates in the morning.

Which doesn't change the fact that according to the hadith eating 7 of them a day will ensure that poison or magic will not harm a person until night... this is simply not true.

The study you showed claimed that dates reduce the poison signficantly, not that they make it go away and not that whatever if left inside does not harm the rat.

:

The results showed that date seeds significantly (P<0.05) reduced liver and serum malondialdehyde (a lipid peroxidative damage product) and serum lactate dehydrogenase and creatine kinase.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21480263

Originally posted by TG12345

Where did I say the hadiths state Muslims can drink all the poison they want and still be protected if they eat 7 ajwa dates that morning? I said, if the hadith is true, a Muslim (or any person for that matter) who eats 7 dates in the morning will not be harmed by poison that day. I don't believe that to be true, and I wouldn't encourage anyone to try it.

Originally posted by islamispeace

You have been claiming all this time that the hadiths teach that a Muslim who eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning will be protected from poison.  I have shown that it does not teach that.

But it does. Here it is again:

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).


Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664:

Narrated Saud:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day." 

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582

 

Originally posted by islamispeace

Rather, I have shown that the hadiths meant that ajwa dates have medical benefits (and also has a protective effect against certain harmful substances), all of which has been scientifically validated.

Number 5083 states that dates have medical benefits. Numbers 663 and 664 state that if someone eats 7 of them in the morning, he will not be hurt by poison or magic that day.

Also, do the scientific studies you show claim that the 7 dates works only until night, as Muhammad said? According to what he taught, the poison will not harm the person until night.

Originally posted by TG12345

Where did he say that #663 and #664 mean that dates have a medicinal benefit, and not that they will not protect against poison?

Originally posted by islamispeace

As I have pointed out several times already, Imam Bukhari placed the hadiths under the "Medicine" section.  Moreover, I also showed other hadiths which state that dates have medicinal uses.

That's not what I asked you. The question I asked was where did Bukhari state, as you are claiming, that #663 and 664 do not mean that eating 7 dates will prevent poison from harming a person, but that Muhammad meant that dates have medicinal benefit and that's it?


Originally posted by TG12345

That drinking of poisons is not mentioned in Acts does not mean it didn't happen. The other things did, so I have no reason to assume it didn't happen at some point in the ministry of the early church.
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

Then, you cannot prove that Mark 16 applied (in its entirety) to the early church.  Why would the Book of Acts mention the other miracles but not the miracle of drinking poison?

There is no indication that it covered every single event that happened in the early church. 

Originally posted by TG12345

As I said previously, it applied to the early church. I believe God still may make things like that happen sometimes today. However, the signs were meant mostly for the early believers, and as the Book of Acts attests, they did do these things.

Originally posted by islamispeace

But the Book of Acts does not "attest" to any examples of Christians drinking poison and surviving. 

And if you believe that "God still may make things like that happen sometimes today", then you cannot logically insist that Mark 16 only applied to the "early church".

Key word is "may". It may or may not happen still. It did happen in the early church.

Earlier I wrote "God makes things like that happen sometimes today", I will change it to may happen.

Originally posted by TG12345

Dates protecting against liver malondialdehyde, but not true for other poisons. If the passage said they are good for some poisons, it would be true. But it just says "poison".

Originally posted by islamispeace

The word used in the hadith is "summ", which has multiple meanings.  It can mean "poison", "toxin" or "venom" http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html - [3] .  You could just as easily translate the word as "toxin" or "venom".  Therefore, it is clear that the hadith is not saying that dates can be used as a preemptive antidote to any poison but is making a general statement of its medicinal benefits. 

So then the hadith is mistranslated into English. A toxin is defined as a poison produced by a living organism, such as a microorganism, a plant, or an animal

http://www.scienceclarified.com/Ph-Py/Poisons-and-Toxins.html

Given this definition, a snake bite would be a toxin. So if a person were to eat 7 dates in the morning and a cobra were to bite him later in the day, according to the hadith he or she would be fine.

The author of "turning the tables" lists Musnad Ahmad's hadith 23592, where it is stated that in the state of fasting the dates will contain healing for all magic or toxins.

‘Aisha reported Allah’s Messenger as saying, “The ‘ajwah dates of al-‘Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html

So although there may not have been Muslims who believed eating 7 dates in the morning will provide protection against all kinds of poison, some Muslims obviously  believed that it will provide protection against all kinds of toxins.

If you were MahditheSeeker, I'd encourage you to try this out and after having 7 dates in the morning to pet a cobra or play with a black widow spider. Since you did not offer the same *****ic challenge that he did, I will not.

However, here you have evidence that according to some Muslims the dates heal from all kinds of toxins (even if not poisons, which is what the translation of #663 and 664 actually says).

I initially assumed this hadith is not authentic since it is not from Bukhari or Muslim, and would anyways state that it shows that some Muslims believe 7 dates protect against any toxins.

Interestingly, however, it was regarded as very much authentic by Muslim scholars.


The Musnad of Ibn Hanbal is probably the first of the six books of hadīth considered authentic by Sunni Muslims, since its author died 15 years before the death of the senior-most of the six hadīth compilers, Muhammad bin Ismā‘īl al-Bukhārī (d. 256 AH), and 62 years before the last of them, Ahmad bin Shu‘ayb al-Nasā’ī, passed away (303 AH).  Throughout history, Sunni scholars have attached great importance to Ibn Hanbal’s Musnad and eulogized it. Hāfiz Abu Musā Madyanī (581 AH), writes:

 

This book is a great source and a reliable reference work for researchers of hadīth. The author has selected from the bulky hadīth literature, a large number of narrations to serve as guidelines and support for the people so that when differences arise they take refuge in them and cite them as authentic. http://www.al-islam.org/mot/musnad/2.htm#_ftn3 - [3]

 

Shams al-Dīn Muhammad bin Ahmad al-Dhahabī (748 AH) writes:

 

This book focuses on the hadīth of the Prophet. There are very few hadīth not included (in this collection) whose authenticity has been confirmed...One of the fortunate things about the Musnad is that we find very few hadīth which are considered inauthentic. http://www.al-islam.org/mot/musnad/2.htm#_ftn4 - [4]

 

Ibn al-Jazarī (833 AH) is even more ecstatic about Ibn Hanbal’s Musnad, and says: 

 

On the face of the earth no better book of hadīth has been compiled. http://www.al-islam.org/mot/musnad/2.htm#_ftn5 - [5]

 

Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalānī writes in Tajrīd Zawā’id al-Musnad al-Bazzāz:

 

If a hadīth is mentioned in Musnad Ibn Hanbal, other Masānīd are not cited for its sources.

 

Jalāl al-Dīn al-Suyutī (849-911 AH) http://www.al-islam.org/mot/musnad/2.htm#_ftn6 - [6] says:

 

Even the weak hadīth found in it are near to hasan (fair). http://www.al-islam.org/mot/musnad/2.htm#_ftn7 - [7]


http://www.al-islam.org/mot/musnad/2.htm


So not only some Muslims believed that Muhammad claimed eating 7 dates in the morning will protect against all kinds of toxins, but him saying this was included in a hadith collection which was very highly regarded.

It is up to you to show me hadith which state that 663 and 664 are reference to only some types of poisons or toxins, and that they do not mean what Muhammad said, namely that eating 7 dates in the AM will cause a person to not be harmed by magic or poison.

Originally posted by TG12345

The passage doesn't tell Muslims to eat 7 dates and drink poison, it tells them if they eat 7 dates in the morning they will not be harmed by poison. 

I am not arguing whether or not Islamic scholars advise Muslims to eat poison or feed poison to friends after ingesting 7 dates in the AM, that is not the issue.
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

Of course it is!  It is much more important how Islamic scholars interpret the hadith than it is how you interpret it. 

The author of IslamQA inteprets the Quran and hadith in a way that causes him to state it is ok to forcefully convert non People of the Book non-Muslims to Islam.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/43087/jihad - http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/43087/jihad

His interpretation is much more important than yours or mine, so I guess he is right.

Originally posted by TG12345

The issue is that Muhammad said that after a person eats 7 awja dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by poison later that day. He didn`t say that these statements apply only to a certain kind of poison, he used `poison`, which is a general term.Let`s say if a doctor gave you a prescription to take (like an antibiotic, for example) to help fight off an infection of some sort. He would tell you `take these pills 3 times a day for x number of days, and it will help with this inflammation`. That would be medically sound. If he gave you the pills and said `take these pills 3 times a day for x number of days, and disease will not harm you`, he would be an ***** and could be probably sued for malpractice. It wouldn`t matter how a person interprets or misinterprets his words, if he said the pill will ensure disease will not harm you he would be wrong, plain and simple. The pill would protect against the inflammation, but not against other kinds of disease or disease in general, which is what is understood by someone saying `if you take this disease will not harm you`.


Originally posted by islamispeace

That is a bad analogy given that Muhammad (pbuh) was not prescribing dates to anyone.  He was only stating that dates have medicinal value, which is true. 

He said they have medicinal value. He also said that if one has 7 of them in the morning, he or she will be immune to poison (or toxins) or magic that day, until night time. According to at least one hadith writer, he meant all toxins and magic. I am unaware of hadith which states that he did not mean in 663 and 664 any poisons except for a few.

If a doctor were to go on tv and say that a certain antibiotic if eaten thrice a day will prevent people from being harmed by disease, he would be giving false information.

Originally posted by TG12345

My buddy Robert Spencer emailed them to me, and then sent me to IC to torment Muslims. Shocked



Originally posted by islamispeace

Aha!  I knew it!  LOL

There is no hiding anything from you. I decided it would be best to just come clean. Wink

Originally posted by TG12345

I responded to the claims about Mark 16, and MahditheSeeker`s ridiculous challenge, then I compared it to some things that Muhammad said, and posted a challenge of my own.


Originally posted by islamispeace

You responded but your response left more questions than answers. 

As for your counter-challenge, it has no logical basis as no where in the hadith did it say that dates can be used as an antidote for any poison.  You are assuming that the word "poison" can mean any poison, but there is no evidence for this.

There is no evidence that 663 and 664 mean anything except what Muhammad said. And I found evidence that at least one Muslim believed it applied to all toxins. He wrote it down in a hadith collection that many scholars of the time very highly regarded.

Originally posted by TG12345

Glad to hear you aren`t trying to `atheisize me` Big%20smile
Salaam. Smile


Originally posted by islamispeace

It would do you no good but would rather move you further away from salvation!  Wink

Walaikum as-salaam.



I'm already saved in Christ Jesus my Lord. Hope one day you come to Him too. Smile


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by islamispeace
I never said that all of Sunan Abu Dawud is not authentic.  Rather, I said that some hadiths are considered to be weak.
Originally posted by TG12345
As a bit of an aside, how do you know which are which?
Originally posted by islamispeace
That requires some research.  As far as I know, the hadith I mentioned is considered authentic.
Originally posted by TG12345
Can you show me some proof please? Thank you.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 27 December 2012 at 2:19am
Originally posted by TG12345

I'm already saved in Christ Jesus my Lord. Hope one day you come to Him too. Smile
A bold statement indeed. Is it not arrogance to think that one is already saved before the Judgement Day?
 
You are mocking God me thinks...even the Prophets (pbut) didn't know if they would be saved.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 27 December 2012 at 8:51am
Hi Mahdi,

It is hard to get a continual teaching on these verses in question, when I don’t write a whole page at a time, but I will go on to the next part following the post on the bottom of page 7, which shows that Peter and Mark had access to Luke’s Gospel, as he also was finishing his Gospel account in Rome, --- And he was the one that mentioned Jesus walking with the two on the road to Emmaus, Mark 16:
12 “After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.”

--- And then, The Great Commission
14 Later He (Jesus) appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

This instruction is given in Matthew and Luke as well, --- and this is really the Gospel Message, --- to teach others, so that they might become disciples, also.
--- Mark was not one of the Apostles and he did not have the experience that Matthew and Peter had, in being there with Jesus after His resurrection, and receiving these definite instructions, --- so the Gospel of Mark (and Peter) would not be complete without having this final commission.
.
Now to show one more thing of interest: --- After receiving the commission to go into all the world, Matthew says in 28:
20 --- Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
--- (In saying, “All things that I have commanded you,” --- which would include all of the Gifts of the Spirit, all the miracles and healing, --- but normally when we read it in Matthew, --- we think of the Power of the Word of God in preaching and teaching.)

And Peter (the Pentecostal Preacher on the day of Pentecost) said in Mark 16:
17 --- And these Signs will follow those who believe:

--- (Peter’s final instructions were to demonstrate God’s Power in healing and deliverance, through the Holy Spirit, which would be a continuation of the miracles that Jesus had done among them.
--- Jesus said much earlier to the disciples, in John 14:
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”

--- And notice that it says this in Mark 16:
17 In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
--- And another verse in Philippians 2 says:
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

--- (You may not understand this from these verses, but when you ask about these Spiritual subjects, and of using “Jesus’ name,” --- there are answers.
--- The realm of healing and deliverance is the realm of demons, and what you call Jinn.)
(More later)


Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 6:41am
To continue Mark 16:

17 --- And these Signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

Notice in verse 9, it identifies Mary Magdalene, 'out of whom Jesus had cast seven demons.' --- Some believed that Jesus could do these miracles while He was living, because He had the Spirit and Power of God in Him, --- but the evidence that the Holy Spirit of God was given to men, had to be in the same Signs and miracles done among believers, that followed Jesus.

To understand how demons and evil Spirits attack and influence all of us we can look at what Satan (Iblis) said in Surah 7:
13 (God) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
--- (Because Satan had been cast out of the presence of God and all the angel-spirits that followed him in rebellion against God, Satan became our adversary and those that had followed him, became the demons and evil spirits on earth.)

There are actually 7 categories or ‘households,’ and they are all named in the Scriptures: --- demons, devils, witches, vipers, unclean spirits, foul spirits, and evil spirits. --- They attack humans in various ways, from bad habits, or influencing evil desires, to causing diseases and crippling people. --- Those given to alcohol and drugs are led into Satan’s realm, and they become ‘slaves.’

--- In the early training of the Apostles, Jesus sent them out to witness to the Jews (and Peter was one of them), in Matthew 10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons

Mark 6:12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.
13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

Jesus sent out another seventy of His disciples and instructed them as he did the twelve, and this is recorded in Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”
--- (Notice the mention of ‘serpents and scorpions’ which are part of the demonic realm which I will get to later.)

--- It was very common to cast out demons and evil spirits in the time of Jesus, and this continued all through the NT --- and it continues today.

I want to give one example of an epileptic boy being delivered of a strong demon that was trying to destroy him, in Matthew 17:
14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying,
15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.
16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.”
17 Then Jesus answered and said, --- “Bring him here to Me.”
18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

Notice: --- That it was a demon that caused the affliction and not a physical or mental disorder. --- And when the demon was cast out, he was healed.
(More later)


Placid



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 7:20am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

It is hard to get a continual teaching on these verses in question, when I don’t write a whole page at a time, but I will go on to the next part following the post on the bottom of page 7, which shows that Peter and Mark had access to Luke’s Gospel, as he also was finishing his Gospel account in Rome, --- And he was the one that mentioned Jesus walking with the two on the road to Emmaus, Mark 16:
12 “After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.”

--- And then, The Great Commission
14 Later He (Jesus) appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

This instruction is given in Matthew and Luke as well, --- and this is really the Gospel Message, --- to teach others, so that they might become disciples, also.
--- Mark was not one of the Apostles and he did not have the experience that Matthew and Peter had, in being there with Jesus after His resurrection, and receiving these definite instructions, --- so the Gospel of Mark (and Peter) would not be complete without having this final commission.
.
Now to show one more thing of interest: --- After receiving the commission to go into all the world, Matthew says in 28:
20 --- Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
--- (In saying, “All things that I have commanded you,” --- which would include all of the Gifts of the Spirit, all the miracles and healing, --- but normally when we read it in Matthew, --- we think of the Power of the Word of God in preaching and teaching.)

And Peter (the Pentecostal Preacher on the day of Pentecost) said in Mark 16:
17 --- And these Signs will follow those who believe:

--- (Peter’s final instructions were to demonstrate God’s Power in healing and deliverance, through the Holy Spirit, which would be a continuation of the miracles that Jesus had done among them.
--- Jesus said much earlier to the disciples, in John 14:
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”

--- And notice that it says this in Mark 16:
17 In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
--- And another verse in Philippians 2 says:
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

--- (You may not understand this from these verses, but when you ask about these Spiritual subjects, and of using “Jesus’ name,” --- there are answers.
--- The realm of healing and deliverance is the realm of demons, and what you call Jinn.)
(More later)


Placid



what point are you trying to make?


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 7:30am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by TG12345

I'm already saved in Christ Jesus my Lord. Hope one day you come to Him too. Smile
A bold statement indeed. Is it not arrogance to think that one is already saved before the Judgement Day?
 
You are mocking God me thinks...even the Prophets (pbut) didn't know if they would be saved.


John 3:16 says

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

I do not mock God, I thank Him for what He did for me as His Son Jesus Christ. I deserve to go to hell, not heaven. However, He has provided a way for me and for you and for everyone else to enter heaven... by believing. Of course, faith involves action as is taught in the book of James, and as Paul teaches us we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

I am grateful to God and in awe of Him and His greatness and majesty and love.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not. It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.Who do you think it applies to?


So those who, according to you, do not follow God can still perform miracles in the name of Jesus? Is that's what you are suggesting?
Hasan
Yes. Satan can also use supernatural phenomena.


In the name of Jesus?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not. It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.Who do you think it applies to?


So those who, according to you, do not follow God can still perform miracles in the name of Jesus? Is that's what you are suggesting?
Hasan
Yes. Satan can also use supernatural phenomena.


In the name of Jesus?
Hasan

Read Matthew 7:21-23. You are the one who posted it. It clearly says that not all who do many wonderful works in the name of Jesus are following God. If you do not follow God, you follow the devil.




Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

It is hard to get a continual teaching on these verses in question, when I don’t write a whole page at a time, but I will go on to the next part following the post on the bottom of page 7, which shows that Peter and Mark had access to Luke’s Gospel, as he also was finishing his Gospel account in Rome, --- And he was the one that mentioned Jesus walking with the two on the road to Emmaus, Mark 16:
12 “After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.”

--- And then, The Great Commission
14 Later He (Jesus) appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

This instruction is given in Matthew and Luke as well, --- and this is really the Gospel Message, --- to teach others, so that they might become disciples, also.
--- Mark was not one of the Apostles and he did not have the experience that Matthew and Peter had, in being there with Jesus after His resurrection, and receiving these definite instructions, --- so the Gospel of Mark (and Peter) would not be complete without having this final commission.
.
Now to show one more thing of interest: --- After receiving the commission to go into all the world, Matthew says in 28:
20 --- Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
--- (In saying, “All things that I have commanded you,” --- which would include all of the Gifts of the Spirit, all the miracles and healing, --- but normally when we read it in Matthew, --- we think of the Power of the Word of God in preaching and teaching.)

And Peter (the Pentecostal Preacher on the day of Pentecost) said in Mark 16:
17 --- And these Signs will follow those who believe:

--- (Peter’s final instructions were to demonstrate God’s Power in healing and deliverance, through the Holy Spirit, which would be a continuation of the miracles that Jesus had done among them.
--- Jesus said much earlier to the disciples, in John 14:
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”

--- And notice that it says this in Mark 16:
17 In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
--- And another verse in Philippians 2 says:
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

--- (You may not understand this from these verses, but when you ask about these Spiritual subjects, and of using “Jesus’ name,” --- there are answers.
--- The realm of healing and deliverance is the realm of demons, and what you call Jinn.)
(More later)


Placid



what point are you trying to make?


Salaam alaikum Mahditheseeker,

Glad to see you back on the forum. Waiting eagerly for you to respond to my points. Smile

Take care.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 30 December 2012 at 6:04am
Hi Mahdi,

You asked,
Quote: What point are you trying to make?
(You had said in Post 1)
Quote: I am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

Response: --- I had thought that when you make such a serious sounding statement, that you might be genuine.
When you ask the questions about the miraculous healing and deliverance power of God, you need to know that God is aware of what you are saying, --- and also knows your reaction and response.

The point I am making is that the Signs and miracles that Jesus did, were continued by Peter and the other Apostles, --- and are still being done today.

I have been in prayer groups where I have seen people being delivered of demons and evil Spirits.
In Mark 16:17 --- “In My name they will cast out demons.”
Because Jesus has authority over the demons, a person who has Spiritual knowledge, and a Gift of Discernment, can command the evil Spirits to leave a person’s body, “In Jesus name.” --- Yes, we can actually say these words:
“I command you in the name of Jesus, that you be cast out,” --- and it has to go.

Most people reject this Spiritual ministry which is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 2:
9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There are healing and deliverance ministries on television, which you would likely reject, because they are over dramatized and appear as foolishness to the natural man, --- but the ministry of deliverance from evil spirits is practiced today.
--- I personally have been delivered, and have seen many others who have been delivered, and healed.

Also, on television, on one of those programs, which I occasionally watch, I say a person’s leg be lengthened, --- as was Salaam Erin’s personal experience, that he mentioned earlier.


Placid



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 4:32am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

You asked,
Quote: What point are you trying to make?
(You had said in Post 1)
Quote: I am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

Response: --- I had thought that when you make such a serious sounding statement, that you might be genuine.
When you ask the questions about the miraculous healing and deliverance power of God, you need to know that God is aware of what you are saying, --- and also knows your reaction and response.

The point I am making is that the Signs and miracles that Jesus did, were continued by Peter and the other Apostles, --- and are still being done today.

I have been in prayer groups where I have seen people being delivered of demons and evil Spirits.
In Mark 16:17 --- “In My name they will cast out demons.”
Because Jesus has authority over the demons, a person who has Spiritual knowledge, and a Gift of Discernment, can command the evil Spirits to leave a person’s body, “In Jesus name.” --- Yes, we can actually say these words:
“I command you in the name of Jesus, that you be cast out,” --- and it has to go.

Most people reject this Spiritual ministry which is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 2:
9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There are healing and deliverance ministries on television, which you would likely reject, because they are over dramatized and appear as foolishness to the natural man, --- but the ministry of deliverance from evil spirits is practiced today.
--- I personally have been delivered, and have seen many others who have been delivered, and healed.

Also, on television, on one of those programs, which I occasionally watch, I say a person’s leg be lengthened, --- as was Salaam Erin’s personal experience, that he mentioned earlier.


Placid



Hmm. I need to get in contact with one of those who claim to perform these miracles. Let us start with the one who delivered you from demons.


And about 'spiritual things can only be understood in the spirit', that reminds me of the story of the emperor's clothes.

About tv things, i have seen Chris Angel perform more amazing things than all christian preachers combined. Also, they should just go to a hospital ward and just touch everybody. I do not think there would remain any non believer in christianity in the world if they did this, or is that asking too much?


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 03 January 2013 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

You asked,
Quote: What point are you trying to make?
(You had said in Post 1)
Quote: I am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

Response: --- I had thought that when you make such a serious sounding statement, that you might be genuine.
When you ask the questions about the miraculous healing and deliverance power of God, you need to know that God is aware of what you are saying, --- and also knows your reaction and response.

The point I am making is that the Signs and miracles that Jesus did, were continued by Peter and the other Apostles, --- and are still being done today.

I have been in prayer groups where I have seen people being delivered of demons and evil Spirits.
In Mark 16:17 --- “In My name they will cast out demons.”
Because Jesus has authority over the demons, a person who has Spiritual knowledge, and a Gift of Discernment, can command the evil Spirits to leave a person’s body, “In Jesus name.” --- Yes, we can actually say these words:
“I command you in the name of Jesus, that you be cast out,” --- and it has to go.

Most people reject this Spiritual ministry which is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 2:
9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There are healing and deliverance ministries on television, which you would likely reject, because they are over dramatized and appear as foolishness to the natural man, --- but the ministry of deliverance from evil spirits is practiced today.
--- I personally have been delivered, and have seen many others who have been delivered, and healed.

Also, on television, on one of those programs, which I occasionally watch, I say a person’s leg be lengthened, --- as was Salaam Erin’s personal experience, that he mentioned earlier.


Placid



Hmm. I need to get in contact with one of those who claim to perform these miracles. Let us start with the one who delivered you from demons.


And about 'spiritual things can only be understood in the spirit', that reminds me of the story of the emperor's clothes.

About tv things, i have seen Chris Angel perform more amazing things than all christian preachers combined. Also, they should just go to a hospital ward and just touch everybody. I do not think there would remain any non believer in christianity in the world if they did this, or is that asking too much?


MahditheSeeker,

How did your experiment with your friend and the cobra/rattlesnake/black widow spider go? Did you prove Muhammad was right? Wink



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 04 January 2013 at 4:24am
Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

You asked,
Quote: What point are you trying to make?
(You had said in Post 1)
Quote: I am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

Response: --- I had thought that when you make such a serious sounding statement, that you might be genuine.
When you ask the questions about the miraculous healing and deliverance power of God, you need to know that God is aware of what you are saying, --- and also knows your reaction and response.

The point I am making is that the Signs and miracles that Jesus did, were continued by Peter and the other Apostles, --- and are still being done today.

I have been in prayer groups where I have seen people being delivered of demons and evil Spirits.
In Mark 16:17 --- “In My name they will cast out demons.”
Because Jesus has authority over the demons, a person who has Spiritual knowledge, and a Gift of Discernment, can command the evil Spirits to leave a person’s body, “In Jesus name.” --- Yes, we can actually say these words:
“I command you in the name of Jesus, that you be cast out,” --- and it has to go.

Most people reject this Spiritual ministry which is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 2:
9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There are healing and deliverance ministries on television, which you would likely reject, because they are over dramatized and appear as foolishness to the natural man, --- but the ministry of deliverance from evil spirits is practiced today.
--- I personally have been delivered, and have seen many others who have been delivered, and healed.

Also, on television, on one of those programs, which I occasionally watch, I say a person’s leg be lengthened, --- as was Salaam Erin’s personal experience, that he mentioned earlier.


Placid



Hmm. I need to get in contact with one of those who claim to perform these miracles. Let us start with the one who delivered you from demons.


And about 'spiritual things can only be understood in the spirit', that reminds me of the story of the emperor's clothes.

About tv things, i have seen Chris Angel perform more amazing things than all christian preachers combined. Also, they should just go to a hospital ward and just touch everybody. I do not think there would remain any non believer in christianity in the world if they did this, or is that asking too much?
MahditheSeeker,How did your experiment with your friend and the cobra/rattlesnake/black widow spider go? Did you prove Muhammad was right? [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" />

tg12345, youy are going off topic


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 05 January 2013 at 6:30am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

You asked,
Quote: What point are you trying to make?
(You had said in Post 1)
Quote: I am tired of talking to pretend believers. all i need is one person in the whole world who can do these things and i will give my life to Jesus. if these things can be proven to be true, even if by only one person, everything else will not matter to me. so please, if there is any believer in Jesus, or anybody who knows a believer in Jesus, please help me out.

Response: --- I had thought that when you make such a serious sounding statement, that you might be genuine.
When you ask the questions about the miraculous healing and deliverance power of God, you need to know that God is aware of what you are saying, --- and also knows your reaction and response.

The point I am making is that the Signs and miracles that Jesus did, were continued by Peter and the other Apostles, --- and are still being done today.

I have been in prayer groups where I have seen people being delivered of demons and evil Spirits.
In Mark 16:17 --- “In My name they will cast out demons.”
Because Jesus has authority over the demons, a person who has Spiritual knowledge, and a Gift of Discernment, can command the evil Spirits to leave a person’s body, “In Jesus name.” --- Yes, we can actually say these words:
“I command you in the name of Jesus, that you be cast out,” --- and it has to go.

Most people reject this Spiritual ministry which is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 2:
9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There are healing and deliverance ministries on television, which you would likely reject, because they are over dramatized and appear as foolishness to the natural man, --- but the ministry of deliverance from evil spirits is practiced today.
--- I personally have been delivered, and have seen many others who have been delivered, and healed.

Also, on television, on one of those programs, which I occasionally watch, I say a person’s leg be lengthened, --- as was Salaam Erin’s personal experience, that he mentioned earlier.


Placid



Hmm. I need to get in contact with one of those who claim to perform these miracles. Let us start with the one who delivered you from demons.


And about 'spiritual things can only be understood in the spirit', that reminds me of the story of the emperor's clothes.

About tv things, i have seen Chris Angel perform more amazing things than all christian preachers combined. Also, they should just go to a hospital ward and just touch everybody. I do not think there would remain any non believer in christianity in the world if they did this, or is that asking too much?
MahditheSeeker,How did your experiment with your friend and the cobra/rattlesnake/black widow spider go? Did you prove Muhammad was right? [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" />

tg12345, youy are going off topic

No, I am not going off topic. I answered your "challenge", then presented a challenge of my own. You ignored it for several days, and then feebly accuse me of "going off topic".

Let me restate again.

Muhammad said that if a person has 7 awja dates first thing in the morning, he or she will be immune from toxins/poisons for the whole day. Have you tried that out with someone from your mosque, like you wanted Christians do try out what is in Mark 16?

You also said that if you see Christians today (even one) doing what is described in Mark 16, you will believe the Bible and give your life to Jesus. I showed you examples of Christians handling snakes. Have you converted?


Or are you going to run off again and hide?  LOL


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 2:34pm
No, I am not going off topic. I answered your "challenge", then presented a challenge of my own. You ignored it for several days, and then feebly accuse me of "going off topic". Let me restate again. Muhammad said that if a person has 7 awja dates first thing in the morning, he or she will be immune from toxins/poisons for the whole day. Have you tried that out with someone from your mosque, like you wanted Christians do try out what is in Mark 16? You also said that if you see Christians today (even one) doing what is described in Mark 16, you will believe the Bible and give your life to Jesus. I showed you examples of Christians handling snakes. Have you converted? Or are you going to run off again and hide?

1.Start a different topic if you want to issue a challenge.
2.I will need a live demonstration from one of those snake handlers with a snake i know is poisonous, preferably a wild black mamba.
3. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"
In the meantime, you can help me find people who can do all the signs mentioned. Once again, i cannot believe based on rumours. talk is cheap. I need a demonstration.
4. In case you want to bring it up, simply handling any snake is nothing special as there are non poisonous snakes, or did the writers of the Bible not know that? It is only special if you survive a snake bite of a poisonous snake.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

No, I am not going off topic. I answered your "challenge", then presented a challenge of my own. You ignored it for several days, and then feebly accuse me of "going off topic". Let me restate again. Muhammad said that if a person has 7 awja dates first thing in the morning, he or she will be immune from toxins/poisons for the whole day. Have you tried that out with someone from your mosque, like you wanted Christians do try out what is in Mark 16? You also said that if you see Christians today (even one) doing what is described in Mark 16, you will believe the Bible and give your life to Jesus. I showed you examples of Christians handling snakes. Have you converted? Or are you going to run off again and hide?

1.Start a different topic if you want to issue a challenge.
2.I will need a live demonstration from one of those snake handlers with a snake i know is poisonous, preferably a wild black mamba.
3. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"
In the meantime, you can help me find people who can do all the signs mentioned. Once again, i cannot believe based on rumours. talk is cheap. I need a demonstration.
4. In case you want to bring it up, simply handling any snake is nothing special as there are non poisonous snakes, or did the writers of the Bible not know that? It is only special if you survive a snake bite of a poisonous snake.


Salaam Alaikum. I started a new thread. I look forward to reading your response.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 8:54am
Hi Mahdi,

(Sorry about being slow to conclude this. While you may not be interested, there may be others who are reading it too.) --- So, to continue with Mark 16:
18 They will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them.

I have heard about the group in the south that take this verse literally and dance with rattlesnakes. I saw a short clip on TV once, and I have the taped testimony of a singer who was invited as a guest as part of a program.
He observed this foolhardy practice and asked someone about it. They said that occasionally someone has been bitten and died, but some are bitten and recover.
--- It appears to be in the realm of “Tempting the Lord,” in supposedly testing their faith, but it is certainly not any Christian practice.

--- But this is not what Peter was referring to here, as he was talking about the deliverance ministry --- As I said, one of the households of evil spirits are vipers.
Satan/Iblis took on the form of a serpent in the Garden to tempt Eve, and this has been the tactics from then till now.

And he was called by these names in Revelation 20:
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.

It says this about Satan/Iblis, who was cast out of the presence of God, in Surah 7:
13 (God) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."

Satan was a deceiver and it says in Romans 3:
10 (Concerning judgment on the wicked), --- As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
13 With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
--- This is Satan’s work through the ungodly, “They practice deceit and the poison of asps is under their lips.”

A parallel to Mark 16:18, is found in Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”
--- (You see, this identifies the serpents and scorpions of the demonic realm, that they could cast out and 'trample,' or have authority over, --- in the name of Jesus.)

--- An example of being bitten by a serpent with poisonous venom is seen with the Apostle Paul in Acts 28:
1 Now when they had escaped (the shipwreck), they then found out that the island was called Malta.
2 And the natives showed us unusual kindness; for they kindled a fire and made us all welcome, because of the rain that was falling and because of the cold.
3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.”
5 But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.
6 However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead.

--- If the viper was 'hanging from his hand' it would have been hanging by it's fangs, would it not?

(A little more later)


Placid



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 2:44pm
"Mark 16..." LOL

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbT88fqLkmo&list=UUNQMOOMpH5KEWDnQCxXgfeA&feature=player_detailpage#t=6015s


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 4:32pm
Why does the Bible say you can drink poison and survive? ( Is Mark 16:18 a FORGERY !? )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbChj26dMzI

Serpent-handling pastor dies hours after he's bitten by a RATTLESNAKE - nearly 30 years after his father died the same way
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2152184/Serpent-handling-pastor-Mack-Wolford-dies--hours-hes-bitten-RATTLESNAKE.html


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:02pm
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Hmm. I need to get in contact with one of those who claim to perform these miracles. Let us start with the one who delivered you from demons.

Response: ---The One who delivers us from a demon, viper, or evil spirit, --- is God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus.
--- With the 7 households of the demonic, people can be effected in the following ways: oppressed, oppressed, occupied by, controlled by, influenced, attacked, obstructed, --- also infected by, or infested by, in the case of diseases.

When a person begins to deal with the spirit world to cast them out of others in Jesus name, --- they become the prime targets for attack.
I can say I have been attacked many times. --- The most scary was early in this new type of ministry when I didn’t know what a battle it would be.
--- We first must be a believer, and be surrendered to God to do His will, --- and because it was Jesus who conquered Satan, sin, and death, --- we have the authority to counteract the work of Satan in calling on the name of Jesus.
We can say, “I command you spirits of evil, of (whatever household), --- that you be cast out in Jesus name.” ---- As Jesus gave them power over demons, serpents and scorpions in Luke 10 in the last Post, we are given the same authority, but only as God directs.

The scary attack I had was at night after I had gone to bed and was asleep. --- I woke up with a tight band around my neck. --- I guess there is no greater fear than being choked. --- I began praying for it to be gone whatever it was, and after a while it was gone. Through the next day I asked the Lord to guide in dealing with that if it came again. --- It did. --- I was sleeping. I woke up with this viper-like feeling around my neck, and I began praying with less fear and more confidence, it left. --- It happened a couple more times. --- The devil uses darkness and fear to intensify the attacks, so I would go in a room, turn on the light, and with my hands out from my throat, I commanded it again to go ‘in Jesus’ name.’ --- It left, and has never returned.
--- (You don’t have to believe this, but I was there when it happened.)

With the devil's attacks, --- when one tactic fails, he tries another, so we have to be on guard, because it tells us in Ephesians 6:
12 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
11 Put on the whole armor of God, --- that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
--- (Our battle is not against people, but against the spiritual activity in the unseen world.}

--- As well as Paul taking up a poison viper, I will give you two examples.
The first is a friend of mine who when he was a student was despairing of life, and one night he swallowed a bottle of aspirin tablets
--- While aspirins are not too strong, --- a bottle of them should have been enough to poison him, or thinned his blood to the point of death. --- He said he woke up the next morning as normal as though nothing had happened.

The second is the testimony of a prominent University educated Speaker and Evangelist.
He is from India, and he said when he was young, and living with his father, mother and sisters, this happened.
He said his father was very mean to the whole family and one night in a fit of anger he put them all out of the house, his mother, himself and his sisters.
It was cold and they went next door to a neighboring house but they huddled under the front step. He was angry with his father, but he began thinking, “There can’t be any God or He wouldn’t let my mother suffer this way.”
He decided later to end it all for himself and he got some poison, and started to drink it. --- However, his body rejected it and caused him to throw it up. He kept trying to drink it, but he would throw it up. --- He passed out because enough had gotten through, --- and some time later he woke up in a hospital.
--- In the hospital he saw a Bible, and began to read it. --- He began to believe it and became a Christian, which he is today. He studied, has a University education, and --- in his ministry, he often debates with intellectuals. --- God had saved him from his attempted suicide.

(But many things are poison to our lives, are they not?)


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by TG12345



Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not. It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.Who do you think it applies to?


So those who, according to you, do not follow God can still perform miracles in the name of Jesus? Is that's what you are suggesting?
Hasan
Yes. Satan can also use supernatural phenomena.


In the name of Jesus?
Hasan
Read Matthew 7:21-23. You are the one who posted it. It clearly says that not all who do many wonderful works in the name of Jesus are following God. If you do not follow God, you follow the devil.


but it is talking of those who have done wonders in Jesus' name! And that's the question not the one's who did wonders in the name of the devil. And I am not sure if any can do wonders in devils name, do you?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345



Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345


Originally posted by honeto

If there is one, please send over to Africa, to save these lives:

"Snakes Bite 1.5 Million People in Sub-Saharan Africa Yearly
Sep 13, 2011 | 9:50 AM ET | Rachael Rettner, MyHealthNewsDaily Staff Writer"

Also, a question to those who know this:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matt. 7:21-23)

Any idea who is addressed here?
Hasan
Salaam Alaikum, Hassan.I believe Matthew 7:21-23 applies to so-called 'christians' who claim to be following God but are not. It applies to people who claim they love Jesus, but look down on the poor and victims of injustice. Applies to those who say they believe in Christ but live their lives in a way that are totally opposite to His teachings. It is about those who make $$$ by fooling people and taking advantage of them, people like Benny Hinn. It applies to those who do good things only because they will be recognized.Who do you think it applies to?


So those who, according to you, do not follow God can still perform miracles in the name of Jesus? Is that's what you are suggesting?
Hasan
Yes. Satan can also use supernatural phenomena.


In the name of Jesus?
Hasan
Read Matthew 7:21-23. You are the one who posted it. It clearly says that not all who do many wonderful works in the name of Jesus are following God. If you do not follow God, you follow the devil.


but it is talking of those who have done wonders in Jesus' name! And that's the question not the one's who did wonders in the name of the devil. And I am not sure if any can do wonders in devils name, do you?
Hasan


People can do powerful works in the name of Jesus, but not be His followers. People can do wonderful works also in the name of the devil. Why would they not be able to? Satan is a deceiver.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 9:03am
Assalamo alaikom

Originally posted by TG12345

People can do powerful works in the name of Jesus, but not be His followers. People can do wonderful works also in the name of the devil

Huh? Confused

Wish you wouldn't make things so complicated!


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 4:25am
Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo alaikom

Originally posted by TG12345

People can do powerful works in the name of Jesus, but not be His followers. People can do wonderful works also in the name of the devil

Huh? Confused

Wish you wouldn't make things so complicated!


What do you find so complicated?


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:23am
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

What do you find so complicated?

What you said. You're welcome to explain what you mean in more detail.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 5:53am
Hi Mahdi,

--- To continue with the miracle works of Mark 16:18 --- “They will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Because Peter was the Apostle most involved in the healing and deliverance ministry, he would want to include God’s power over the works of Satan in the co-authorship of the Gospel according to Mark, --- and that is what deliverance is, --- the power over Satan, the devil, --- and demons, vipers, evil spirits and to set people free to worship God with no demonic influence.

--- The Jews were called ‘a brood of vipers’ first by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:
4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance.”

And when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees later, He said this in Matthew 12
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart[g] brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

--- And Jesus said again in Matthew 23:
29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Drinking poison can also refer to false doctrines, or ‘doctrines of devils,’ --- which can poison the mind, --- From which they need deliverance.


Peter laid hands on many people for their healing, and the power of the Holy Spirit worked so mightily through him that unnatural miracles took place, like this that is recorded in Acts 5:
12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch.
13 Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.
14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, --- that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

--- And the ministry of healing continues today in Evangelical Churches and homes of believers.


Placid



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 7:44am
Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by TG12345

What do you find so complicated?

What you said. You're welcome to explain what you mean in more detail.


Sure.

People can do powerful works in the name of Jesus, but not be His followers. People can do wonderful works also in the name of the devil

Supernatural phenomena is not definite proof of the work of God. Jesus did many great works.

However, the Bible says that Satan can do great works as well. The pagan Roman emperor Vespasian is said to have supernatually healed some people. Perhaps he really did. Perhaps he didn't, or perhaps he lucked out.

I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that Satan gave him some supernatural powers to deceive people.



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 2:03pm
Hi TG,

While there has to be the genuine, before there can be the counterfeit, --- I think you give Satan too much credit for duplicating the works of God, --- and perhaps you don’t give him enough credit for his ingenious methods of deception.

However, there have been some strange cases that are not explained, but Satan is always trying to draw attention away from God and His word.

A couple of possible examples:
Many people in the world are indwelt by demons or evil spirits, as they were in Bible days, and often they express themselves though physical ailments, confusion or depression.
--- If some natural man, or person of influence, claims to be able to pray for healing for someone who is sick, who simply is occupied by a demon, --- Satan can engineer the healing because he has command of the demons.

--- He can find another person who is open to demonic suggestion, or vulnerable through drugs or alcohol, etc. --- and Satan can have the demon come out of the person that somebody is praying for, and go into the new vulnerable person, so that he now is occupied by that demon, --- and the first person is free, --- so therefore he can rejoice that he has been healed, and even glorify the man as a healer.

Another case is that sane sensible men can come under the control of a demon. You have no doubt heard the expression, ‘the demon of alcohol,’ have you not?
--- If a man who has no inner spiritual action drinks too much, he gets sleepy, and the natural thing is for him to ‘sleep it off.’
--- Most of us have known people that, when they drink to a certain point they get foolish and then obnoxious. With the sensible mind dulled by the alcohol, a demon can come in and control him. --- Some go wild and make fools of themselves, and do harm to others. --- When he finally settles down, or is subdued if necessary, --- and again ‘sleeps it off,’ --- he wakes up sick, sober and sorry. --- And when his friends, or the authorities, tell him what he did, he’s apt to say, “I don’t know what got into me last night.” --- Yeah, but we know.


Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 4:56am
Hi Mahdi

To conclude Mark 16:
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

--- I know, you perhaps didn’t ask about this, but this is the evidence that Peter wrote these final verses because he was there with the other disciples and heard the Message and the Great Commission that Jesus gave to Matthew, Peter, John, and the others, whereas, there is no mention of Mark being with them.

Matthew said about the same in chapter 28:
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them and,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Notice: --- That Matthew closes with, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” --- Amen. --- (meaning, - so be it.)

Peter ends with the emphasis on the 'signs' that accompanied them as they went out and preached everywhere.

--- Had the Gospel of Mark ended in verse 8 it would have concluded with the resurrection, only.
--- Verse 1 begins with Mary Magdalene and the other women going to the tomb and finding it empty, and seeing an angel that told them that Jesus had risen.

--- And he gave them a message for the disciples:
7 But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”
8 So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

--- That was a negative ending --- which was apparently in the first manuscript.

When Peter writes his conclusion, he begins again in verse 9 with Mary Magdalene, --- but adds his own identity by mentioning her deliverance --- ‘Mary Magdalene, out of whom He (Jesus) had cast seven demons,’ --- and later he mentions miracles, satanic attacks, and healing, which was his ministry.

--- And he gives the positive ending when he says, in the last verse in Mark 16:
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and ‘confirming the word through the accompanying signs.’ Amen.


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 3:18pm
Placid,
so according to your post above, if Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God, that makes God sitting on the left hand of Jesus. Is that's how it is?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 8:07am
Hi,

God is pictured as High and Lifted up ON HIS THRONE.


--- And the Resurrected Jesus is on His right hand as His 'right hand Servant.' who fulfilled His mission on earth, and on the cross, when all things were fulfilled, He said. "It is finished."



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