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Will Israel never stop?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Politics
Forum Name: Current Events
Forum Discription: Current Events
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24306
Printed Date: 24 April 2014 at 12:03am


Topic: Will Israel never stop?
Posted By: Dick
Subject: Will Israel never stop?
Date Posted: 15 November 2012 at 12:07pm
Got this off of www.whatreallyhappened.com


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Go to main page News US backs Israel’s ‘right to defense’ amid global condemnation (PHOTOS)

US backs Israel’s ‘right to defense’ amid global condemnation (PHOTOS)

Published: 15 November, 2012, 13:15
Edited: 15 November, 2012, 13:15



Israel’s offensive on Gaza has drawn sharp condemnation around the world, particularly from the online community. The US, however, has advocated Israel’s right to defend itself from terrorists, while the UN reached an impasse in negotiations.

Egypt, which withdrew its ambassador from Israel following the latter’s announcement that it would intensify its military campaign, ordered an emergency UN meeting to discuss the escalating conflict. Egyptian Foreign Minister Mohamed Kamel Amr warned that further aggression from Israel could have “negative repercussions on the security and stability of the region.”

The Palestinian envoy to the UN slammed Israeli aggression during the meeting, decrying it as "vulgarly and publicly boasting about its willful killing of Palestinians.” Following Wednesday’s offensive that killed Hamas military leader Ahmed Jabari.

US Ambassador Susan Rice got behind Israel during the UN session, saying that there is no justification “for the violence that Hamas and other terrorist organizations are employing against the people of Israel."

The meeting was adjourned without any palpable conclusion, although the general message from the body was to de-escalate the conflict in order to avert any more civilian casualties.

At least 13 Palestinians have been reported dead so far, among them two children, according to Palestinian authorities.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon expressed his concern at the situation and voiced expectation that "Israeli reactions are measured so as not to provoke a new cycle of bloodshed."

The White House released a transcript of President Obama’s communications with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday night. Obama stressed Israel’s right to defend itself and has decried rocket fire from Gaza into the country.

"The president urged Prime Minister Netanyahu to make every effort to avoid civilian casualties. The two agreed that Hamas needs to stop its attacks on Israel to allow the situation to de-escalate," the White House statement said. Netanyahu’s office said that he “deeply appreciated” the president’s support.

The US justifies its unwavering support of Israel in its terrorist classification of Hamas. RT correspondent Gayane Chichikyan highlighted the US’s double standard policy in its classification of terrorism, stressing they were not so quick to brand opposition attacks in Syria as “terrorism”, in spite of the fact the UN condemns them as such.

“There seem to be different interpretations of the term ‘terrorism’ in Washington,” said Chichikyan.


­

Protester ire against Israeli offensive



Protesters gather outside Defense Minister Ehud Barak’s Tel Aviv apartment.(Image from screenshot of youtube video user@SocialTV)

A protest movement is already gathering momentum in response to the Israeli’s warmongering rhetoric. Hacktavist group Anonymous reportedly attacked the Israeli Defense Ministry website.

They claimed to have blocked it, posting the trademark hashtag “tango down” on Twitter.

In Tel Aviv overnight, more than 100 activists turned out outside Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak’s Tel Aviv apartment complex to protest the IDF’s offensive.

They brandished anti-war banners and chanted slogans against the minister, such as “Defense minister, defense minister, how many kids did you kill today?”, “Israel, Palestine, two states for two peoples”, “Money for welfare, not war” and “No war for tycoons.”

Israel’s Meretz Hadash and the newly-formed Pirates Party had a strong presence at the protest.

“This will only bring death to Palestinians and Israelis, and we call on everybody who is able to come stand by our side and fight against this step before civilians and soldiers on both sides are killed,” said Amit Ashkenazi, a spokesman for Hadash to the Jerusalem Post.


Palestinian men take part in a candle vigil in support of the people of the Gaza Strip and against Israeli air strikes, on November 14, 2012 in front of the Church of the Nativity at the West Bank city of Bethlehem. (AFP Photo / Musa Al Shaer)


Palestenian protesters shout slogans as they march in the West Bank city of Ramallah on November 14, 2012 during a demonstration in support of the people of the Gaza Strip and against Israeli air strikes. (AFP Photo / Abbas Momani)

Meanwhile in Ramallah, hundreds flooded the streets of the West Bank, enraged by Israel’s offensive. They called for revenge for those slain in the rocket strikes and urged Palestinian forces to return fire into Israel.

In the Egyptian capital, crowds gathered outside the Israeli embassy demanding its immediate closure, while demonstrations in solidarity of Gaza have also reportedly taken place in Istanbul and Turkey.

Protests are expected in the Israeli cities of Haifa and Jerusalem on Thursday.


Egyptians protest for the closure of the Israeli embassy in Cairo. (Image from twitter user@EslamX)


Egyptians protest for the closure of the Israeli embassy in Cairo. Egypt (Image from twitter user@Mad_Darsh)

© Autonomous Nonprofit Organization “TV-Novosti”, 2005 - 2011. All rights reserved.



Replies:
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 10:52am
Ok, so I don't see where all the confusion is.  

Gaza-Israel Nov. 14, 15, 2012

a few facts

The operation, launched after days of rocket fire from the coastal territory, was Israel's most intense attack on Gaza since its full-scale war there four years ago.

The Israeli military said the some 20 airstrikes were part of a major offensive dubbed "Operation Pillar of Defense," according to a Reuters report.

Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets on several locations in Gaza early Thursday, warning Gazans to stay away from Hamas, other militants and their facilities.

The Israeli military said its aircraft targeted more than 20 facilities that served as storage or launching sites for rockets.

For the past four years, Israel and Hamas have largely observed an informal truce. But in recent weeks, the calm has unraveled in a bout of rocket attacks from Gaza and retaliatory Israeli airstrikes.

In my view.  If Gaza/Hamas is going to continue aggression towards Israel how is it then that they cry out at the consequences brought about by their own actions?  When Gaza aims its projectiles at Israel they are untargeted, heading for nothing more than civilian populations.  When Israel strikes back with deadly accuracy at militarial targets they are condemned.  Yes, Israel is more deadly, so stop the aggression.  There are consequences for actions.  When a mosquito continues to buzz around ones ear eventually it gets swatted.
I just don't get it.
Yes I grieve at the deadly force of Israel and the deaths that are involved,  but the deaths of innocent persons are on both sides of the fence.  I understand that Israel wants an end to the aggression constantly aimed at their civilian population.  They think that the display of their power will convince the other side not to engage deadly forces.  At least they are not just sending random rockets into Gaza.  They do have specified targets.
I know this is an unpopular view on this forum, but facts are facts, and we must look at the situation as it is.

I just wish all the aggression would stop and people would behave like civilized human beings and reach a settlement with one another.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:56am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Ok, so I don't see where all the confusion is.  

Gaza-Israel Nov. 14, 15, 2012

a few facts
 
If your historical perspective of the conflict began Nov. 14, 15, 2012 I may be inclined to agree with you, however in the 1880s when Jews desired to settle in Palestine, Zionist said Palestine was "a land without people for a people without land."  What followed was "voluntary flight" (of a people who weren't really there in the first place), or ethnic cleansing.


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 7:39pm
And if your historical perspective of the conflict began in the 1880s I may be inclined to agree with you, however this region has been fought over for millenia.  All sides have committed attrocities.  Whose turn it is now depends on who fired the last rocket.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 8:43pm
Gosh, not really sure how to quantify millenia, however prior to voluntary flight/ethnic cleansing, Jews and Muslims lived as neighbors in peace.  The dismissive notion that, 'they've been killing each other for hundreds of years' isn't factual with respect to Palestine.  Anyway, your point is well taken concerning the last rocket fired.


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 8:44am
Generally, a millenium is a thousand years.  So millenia is the plural, or, multiples of one thousand years.  Palestine is an area, not a country (at least not yet) and it has been fought over and dominated by people of various beliefs and ethnic backgrounds since before Christ walked the Earth, and by dominated I don't mean peacefully.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 9:38am

Well, notwithstanding thousands of years, sadly women and children suffer greatly from war and conflict, and it is my hope that people of moral conscious understand that  there must be a limit to everything.  How can over 3 million people endlessly live under occupation with little hope for the future?  What a complete shame.  I really wish the international community would offer the Arab and Christian Palestinians an exit from Israel, those who desire to leave anyway, because staying is really hopeless and obviously a pain in the neck for the west and Arab world.



Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 9:52am
The people whoever they are firing the rockets know very well what they are doing.  They started the barrage and will not stop, knowing that Israel would eventually retaliate and they also know that if they continue it will create a wider conflict, probably with Israel invading again.
 And they had been told if they continue to fire rockets retaliation will come.
  As densly populated as Gaza is, there is no way to prevent civilian casualties. Does anyone here actually believe the people firing the rockets actually care about the palestinian civilians who will die?

I don't believe it one bit no matter how many photos they will show in the papers of innocents killed because those people sending rockets are consumed by their own hate and dream of creating a wider conflict drawing in surrounding countries. Of course, blame it all on Israeli agression.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 10:08am
The Muslims in the region have to realize if Israel did not exist.....   women and children would still be suffering. It's the most conveinient thing to focus internal anger upon. They will just move on to the next thing. There was a time when Jews lived through out North africa and the Arab Peninsula.. in countries like Yemen for example.
 They were driven out and off their land. Who took their land?? Ahhhh..
but their just jews so it dosn't matter much to people today,  yet that was not good enough.  So there are still Jews in the middle east? If they are driven out completely, then it will be the christians who are the next problem.

I don't understand actually if there is so much concern for the Palestinians, that they cannot receive Economic aid and trade opportunities through Egypt, as they border Gaza... and likewise Jordan borders the west bank. Why are'nt they helping each other if they really are so concerned? or is the focus really just to eliminate Israel off the map ?


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 November 2012 at 10:17am
Blake,
it is true that muslims have internal divisions but that is nothing new as a mater of fact history tells us that all people have internal conflicts.
But you know that Muslim divisions that we see today, at least most of them were actually crafted by the West to neutralize them so they could be kept busy fighting each other so their colonization could succeed.
Jews have always lived and prospered throughout the Islamic lands moving in and out freely, many still living in Iran, and central Asian countries.
What we are seeing recently in Muslim countries is intolerance which is not an Islamic teaching rather it is planted by enemies of Islam who are worried that Islam in it's purity has certain potential of taking over the world again as majority of people are beginning to base their belief in knowledge, logic and reasoning. And Islam has been wining with that criteria practiced by any giving it a chance.
The world has witnessed unmatched tolerance under Islamic leadership, when Islam was practiced and applied. Most of today's intolerance is engineered in Western, Mossad and RAW Intelligence Labs and applied in Muslim countries through installed rebel (in most cases extremist)groups and leaders. They must be proud to see the results as we see what is going on these days over there.
May Allah guide us all to do good.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 18 November 2012 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Blake

The people whoever they are firing the rockets know very well what they are doing.  They started the barrage and will not stop, knowing that Israel would eventually retaliate and they also know that if they continue it will create a wider conflict, probably with Israel invading again.
 And they had been told if they continue to fire rockets retaliation will come.
  As densly populated as Gaza is, there is no way to prevent civilian casualties. Does anyone here actually believe the people firing the rockets actually care about the palestinian civilians who will die?

I don't believe it one bit no matter how many photos they will show in the papers of innocents killed because those people sending rockets are consumed by their own hate and dream of creating a wider conflict drawing in surrounding countries. Of course, blame it all on Israeli agression.
 
Exactly. 
 
They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, each time expecting a different result.  Well, those firing the rockets are not insane.  They know perfectly what they are doing.  They are not defending Palestine.  If they were, they would have noticed by now that they are only making things worse for Palestinians.
 
And on the Israeli side things are similar.  Surely they must have noticed by now that retaliation is not a long-term solution.  The only long-term "solution" would be total annihilation of the Palestinians, but they know (I think they know, anyway) that the world community would not allow it.  Even the Americans would withdraw their support.
 
So what's the goal?  On the Palestinian side, jihad is an end in itself.  Fighting and dying in the cause of Allah (as they define it) is their ticket to Paradise.  Plus, by provoking the Israelis to kill Palestinians, they can cast themselves as victims of Israeli aggression and gain financial and other support from individual Muslims and Muslim-majority countries.
 
The Israelis I don't understand as well, but I can only assume it is pure hatred.  I also suspect that American weapons manufacturers have something to do with it.  They have a clear interest in maintaining a strong demand for their wares.
 
Either side could end this conflict -- not right away, but eventually -- simply by refusing to retaliate.  Yes, many on their own side will die -- but even more will die if they retaliate, as surely they must know by now.  And eventually the aggressors will lose all support as the world community squarely aligns itself with the non-aggressive side.   They too will realize that continued aggression gains them nothing and costs them greatly.
 
Quite simply, the solution to war is peace.  But neither side wants peace.


-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 18 November 2012 at 8:21pm
I would agree that western civilization is guilty of many things, through it's colonization and through out it's history western civilizations have battled each other ruthlessly as well. But also just as others have.

What your saying though is that these middle eastern nations don't except responsibility for treating each other badly.  Passing the blame on to someone else is a great way to cope with it. For sure there are power grabs like the Saudi Families but even in that example....  they are the ones who own the blame. Not their trading partners. And in that conversation.... if not for the developpment of oil for fuel by the west a hundred years ago....  what great prospect for wealth would those nations have? I'm sure your familiar with the Chinese YIN and Yang. You must count your blessings along side your criticizms because though two sides of a coin my look extremely different, they are actually part of ONE and the distance between the two is actually very short.

I think your putting the west in an entire negative focus ...while I'm not aware of any recent colonies in the muslim lands, we have dumped billions of dollars into the land of Islam in oil purchases, learning and technology has been increased throughout all the region for anyone who wants it due to advancements from the west. I believe resources have been increased so much but it has been mainly tribal biases that have caused so many inequities.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 18 November 2012 at 8:31pm
Ron , I agree with a lot of what you say,  but how long now have missiles been fired into Israel? Even if tel aviv was reduced to rubble by rockets.
I don't see any European Country wanting to get involved. Some one is going to stop them from firing rockets?  realistically ..WHO?

how would someone stop them? by invading Gaza? by asking them politely to stop? No one would ever invade Gaza except Israel because they are the ones getting bombed. There can never be a blockade because Islamic countries will always support the shelling of Israel. They could take it for ten years without responding and the shelling would never stop, because no one in that region wants Jews there.

Unfortunantly the Jews will have to retaliate just to limit the ability of the Palesinians to be able to shell them. I don't think this is good either... and I don't know what the real answer is... I wish I did. The whole thing over there just botheres me a lot.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 11:09am

it is true that muslims have internal divisions but that is nothing new as a mater of fact history tells us that all people have internal conflicts.
But you know that Muslim divisions that we see today, at least most of them were actually crafted by the West to neutralize them so they could be kept busy fighting each other so their colonization could succeed.
Jews have always lived and prospered throughout the Islamic lands moving in and out freely, many still living in Iran, and central Asian countries.
What we are seeing recently in Muslim countries is intolerance which is not an Islamic teaching rather it is planted by enemies of Islam who are worried that Islam in it's purity has certain potential of taking over the world again as majority of people are beginning to base their belief in knowledge, logic and reasoning. And Islam has been wining with that criteria practiced by any giving it a chance.
The world has witnessed unmatched tolerance under Islamic leadership, when Islam was practiced and applied. Most of today's intolerance is engineered in Western, Mossad and RAW Intelligence Labs and applied in Muslim countries through installed rebel (in most cases extremist)groups and leaders. They must be proud to see the results as we see what is going on these days over there.
May Allah guide us all to do good.
Hasan

I recommend reading:
http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/others/blessjews.htm

Two views


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 6:51pm

Originally posted by Blake

I think your putting the west in an entire negative focus ...

My intention is to put both sides in a negative focus.  There is plenty of blame to go around here.

Originally posted by Blake

Ron , I agree with a lot of what you say,  but how long now have missiles been fired into Israel?

I honestly don't know.  About as long as Israel has existed, I suppose.  And how long has Israel mistreated the Palestinians?  About as long.

Even if tel aviv was reduced to rubble by rockets.

Not even close.   Have a look at Wikipedia's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.93present - table comparing the deaths on both sides in recent history (and note that the data comes from Jewish sources).  Since 1987, there have been more than five Palestinians killed for every Israeli; and in the past decade the ratio is more like ten to one.

So don't talk about Tel Aviv being reduced to rubble.  Gaza will be rubble long before then.

I don't see any European Country wanting to get involved.  Some one is going to stop them from firing rockets?  realistically ..WHO?

Who stopped South Africa from maintaining its apartheid policies?  Nobody; but it wasn't necessary.  South Africans just got tired of being a pariah nation.  And so would Palestine, eventually, once it becomes crystal clear that they are the aggressors.

One thing is obvious: the Israelis aren't gonna stop them.  Decades of history have demonstrated that.  On the contrary, bombing Palestine only increases Israeli casualties.

Unfortunantly the Jews will have to retaliate just to limit the ability of the Palesinians to be able to shell them.

Okay, how about this?  The Jews can consider retaliating after Israeli casualties begin to approach the Palestinian level over the last decade or so.

Or here's an even better idea.  How about actually treating the Palestinians like human beings?  They've tried bombing and blockading and invading and stealing their territory -- and oddly enough, that hasn't made the Palestinians any less hostile.  Like I said, it's the definition of insanity to keep doing the same things over and constantly expect a different result.  If you want a different outcome, try something different.



-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 10:05pm

First I just want to say I'm saddened by all the deaths we see today just like everyone else, and I hope they can come to a solution before any invasion happens.

But Ron, Israel mistreating Palestinians , gives license to fire missiles into Israel without retaliation? 

I would also say the Palestinians have been mistreated by the Iranians who are using them in their Proxy war. Instead they could have been helping the Palestinians acheive economic prosperity with the same efforts.... teaching them to live in peace and prosperity which is what Islam is supposed to be all about.

But that is one of the last things on many minds in the region who have the means to make a difference for the Palestinians in a positive way.

When I'm talking about Tel Aviv being reduced to Rubble... I'm not beingg serious,... that's the point. That's how long it would take for anyone to stop the Palestinians from sending over their rockets. Basically never I think.........
as long as Iran keeps giving them their steady supply.

So....  why is it that Israel turned over the Gaza to the Palestinians in the first place?  They WERE trying to treat them like human beings.... I think.
But what they got in return almost immediately was rocket fire back into Israel. If the Israeli gesture of land for peace had been met with open arms... then you would by now have seen further progress. I'm sure many restrictions on Palestinians would have been lifted by now as they learned to trust each other. But that is a two way street.

I think the problem is you got some Palestinians who truely want a Palestinian State and to exist in peace with Israel. Then you got the Palestinians who are aligned with Iran who want a Religious Caliphate including the ground under the Israelis AT ANY COST including their own.

See, not much has changed since Adolf Hitler visited Jerusalem in 1938 to strenghen his Alliance with the Arabs against the Jews. The Jews were being exterminated from both ends..... is it any wonder the Israelis have the mind set they do? If they don't defend themselves they will no longer exist.








Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 3:46pm

Originally posted by Blake

But Ron, Israel mistreating Palestinians , gives license to fire missiles into Israel without retaliation?

No!  Absolutely not!  But this is not an either/or situation.  You don't have to choose a side in this.  It is logically possible to be critical of both sides.  

I would also say the Palestinians have been mistreated by the Iranians who are using them in their Proxy war. Instead they could have been helping the Palestinians acheive economic prosperity with the same efforts.... teaching them to live in peace and prosperity which is what Islam is supposed to be all about.

Indeed, and Israel could be doing the same thing.  If they really wanted to end the hostility, that's what they should do.  But I'm not holding my breath.

When I'm talking about Tel Aviv being reduced to Rubble... I'm not beingg serious,... that's the point. That's how long it would take for anyone to stop the Palestinians from sending over their rockets. Basically never I think.........

Yes, I understand that.  I just think it's important to keep reminding people of the asymmetry of this "war".  The Palestinians are not an existential threat to Israel.

So....  why is it that Israel turned over the Gaza to the Palestinians in the first place?  They WERE trying to treat them like human beings.... I think.

"Turned over"?  You mean gave back, after having invaded and captured it in 1967?  The Palestinians are supposed to be grateful for that?

I'll agree with you though that this was a missed opportunity for the Palestinians to reciprocate.  There have been so many missed opportunities, on both sides.

I think the problem is you got some Palestinians who truely want a Palestinian State and to exist in peace with Israel. Then you got the Palestinians who are aligned with Iran who want a Religious Caliphate including the ground under the Israelis AT ANY COST including their own.

That's right.  There are moderates on both sides, and they need to reach out to each other.  More importantly IMHO, they need to stand in opposition to the extremists in their own communities and resist the temptation to retaliate.  That's going to be tough, especially when the bombs keep exploding in their neighbours' yards, as they undoubtedly will for some time.

See, not much has changed since Adolf Hitler visited Jerusalem in 1938 to strenghen his Alliance with the Arabs against the Jews. The Jews were being exterminated from both ends..... is it any wonder the Israelis have the mind set they do? If they don't defend themselves they will no longer exist.

Again, this is hyperbole.  Israel's existence is not threatened by the Palestinians.  It may be threatened by other nations such as Iran, but attacking the Palestinians only increases that threat.  It does nothing to reduce it.



-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 8:05pm
Which offspring are in disgrace?  Those who transgress the commandments. - Sirach 10:19


They are all transgressing the commandments.  They are all in error.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 12:10am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

But Ron, Israel mistreating Palestinians , gives license to fire missiles into Israel without retaliation?

No!  Absolutely not!  But this is not an either/or situation.  You don't have to choose a side in this.  It is logically possible to be critical of both sides.  

I would also say the Palestinians have been mistreated by the Iranians who are using them in their Proxy war. Instead they could have been helping the Palestinians acheive economic prosperity with the same efforts.... teaching them to live in peace and prosperity which is what Islam is supposed to be all about.

Indeed, and Israel could be doing the same thing.  If they really wanted to end the hostility, that's what they should do.  But I'm not holding my breath.

When I'm talking about Tel Aviv being reduced to Rubble... I'm not beingg serious,... that's the point. That's how long it would take for anyone to stop the Palestinians from sending over their rockets. Basically never I think.........

Yes, I understand that.  I just think it's important to keep reminding people of the asymmetry of this "war".  The Palestinians are not an existential threat to Israel.

So....  why is it that Israel turned over the Gaza to the Palestinians in the first place?  They WERE trying to treat them like human beings.... I think.

"Turned over"?  You mean gave back, after having invaded and captured it in 1967?  The Palestinians are supposed to be grateful for that?

I'll agree with you though that this was a missed opportunity for the Palestinians to reciprocate.  There have been so many missed opportunities, on both sides.

I think the problem is you got some Palestinians who truely want a Palestinian State and to exist in peace with Israel. Then you got the Palestinians who are aligned with Iran who want a Religious Caliphate including the ground under the Israelis AT ANY COST including their own.

That's right.  There are moderates on both sides, and they need to reach out to each other.  More importantly IMHO, they need to stand in opposition to the extremists in their own communities and resist the temptation to retaliate.  That's going to be tough, especially when the bombs keep exploding in their neighbours' yards, as they undoubtedly will for some time.

See, not much has changed since Adolf Hitler visited Jerusalem in 1938 to strenghen his Alliance with the Arabs against the Jews. The Jews were being exterminated from both ends..... is it any wonder the Israelis have the mind set they do? If they don't defend themselves they will no longer exist.

Again, this is hyperbole.  Israel's existence is not threatened by the Palestinians.  It may be threatened by other nations such as Iran, but attacking the Palestinians only increases that threat.  It does nothing to reduce it.




It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

Now suddenly everyone is shocked that Israel has retaliated strongly. BUT, I do agree with you in that the retaliation by Israel will solve nothing.
This is true. It must take some greater action other than violence.

As for the Hyperbole, well ... you have to remember the Arabs were Allies of the Nasis in the war, and were recruited by them to kill jews in europe and hunt them down throughout North Africa as well as other parts of the Middle East. Do you think that mindset had no bearing on the Arab/ Israeli wars that followed? And even today the same mindset is there. Maybe those rockets are no big deal as many seem to dismiss them .... no real threat to the Israelis, but do remember those rockets are comming from Iran. It's only a matter of time before one of those rockets is loaded with a Nuke. Who is to say that is no threat?  its easy for us when we don't haev to live there.

And as to Jews aiding the Palestinians economically.... remember when They took over Gaza, they were given 3,000  green houses to which they could have grown vegetables or any crop ... paid for by American Jewish donors. These cost Millions of dollars.

They were stripped down and destroyed in days by the Palestinians... so I think that the thing maybe people don't realize is that the people there may be very difficult to get along with.

Maybe the real answer will have to come from Moderate Islamic nations who can somehow help the Palestinians shed the teachings of Hammas,
if that is possible.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:07am

Originally posted by Blake

It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

How many Israelis were killed in those rocket attacks?  Was anybody killed?  And how many Palestinians have been killed (so far) in the Israeli retaliation?  Again, you can't treat this as a symmetrical situation.

Reports of Palestinian attacks against Israel are not suppressed in the Arab world.  They are celebrated, and the perpetrators are heroes.

As for the Hyperbole, well ... you have to remember the Arabs were Allies of the Nasis in the war, and were recruited by them to kill jews in europe and hunt them down throughout North Africa as well as other parts of the Middle East.

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers - list of Nazi allies is long and infamous.  If England and Germany can put that ancient conflict behind them, then surely the Israelis and the Palestinians can do the same.  And by the way, I'll take your word for Muslim involvement with the Nazis, but the Wikipedia article makes almost no mention of it.  The only reference to Muslims is with respect to Iraq, which was "briefly an ally of the Axis".  I'm not sure why you would hold that against the Palestinians, except out of pure stereotyping and prejudice.

And as to Jews aiding the Palestinians economically.... remember when They took over Gaza, they were given 3,000  green houses to which they could have grown vegetables or any crop ... paid for by American Jewish donors. These cost Millions of dollars.

They were stripped down and destroyed in days by the Palestinians... so I think that the thing maybe people don't realize is that the people there may be very difficult to get along with.

That is really a low blow.  The greenhouses were looted by a lawless mob, and the Palestinian authorities were powerless to prevent it.  To turn it around and blame it on the Palestinians authorities themselves is like blaming the victim.

Maybe the real answer will have to come from Moderate Islamic nations who can somehow help the Palestinians shed the teachings of Hammas, if that is possible.

That's certainly part of the solution.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is going to help that process, or hinder it?



-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Blake



It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

Now suddenly everyone is shocked that Israel has retaliated strongly.

You are absolutely right Blake.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

How many Israelis were killed in those rocket attacks?  Was anybody killed?  And how many Palestinians have been killed (so far) in the Israeli retaliation?  Again, you can't treat this as a symmetrical situation.

Hi Ron,

I have to ask... if someone were constantly, consistently, regularly, throwing stones at your house and always breaking the windows, knocking down fences and walls... wouldn't you hit back with all the force you had to send a message to make it stop?  What recourse do you think you might take?  What would anyone do to protect themselves and their property?

That's certainly part of the solution.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is going to help that process, or hinder it?

At what point do you have to put your foot down?  What is it that these people will understand?  Land for peace did not work, it was only turned into land for terror.  How in the world can trust ever be built when one side refuses to lay down arms, stop the attacks, and work towards building their own nation... work towards peace between nations?  (Stop tilting at windmills and start building them instead)  Every time the Palestinian side agrees to a truce it is more like a trick... an attempt to lull Israel into a sense of trust, only so it can be re-attacked... and so you're always wondering, 'How long this time?'  It is up to the Palestinian leaders to stick to their agreements and establish a lasting trust... a believable trust.  This is what continues to be lacking between the two peoples.  Can they ever work towards a place of trust?  I don't see it.  There is one mind set that needs to be changed... and that is, it must be recognized, and acknowledged, that all people must have equal rights to exist.

People need to worry about the 'plank in their own eye instead of always bothering about the splinter in someone else's.'
The message that needs to get across is;
Focus on building yourself... not tearing down someone else.



Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

How many Israelis were killed in those rocket attacks?  Was anybody killed?  And how many Palestinians have been killed (so far) in the Israeli retaliation?  Again, you can't treat this as a symmetrical situation.

Reports of Palestinian attacks against Israel are not suppressed in the Arab world.  They are celebrated, and the perpetrators are heroes.

As for the Hyperbole, well ... you have to remember the Arabs were Allies of the Nasis in the war, and were recruited by them to kill jews in europe and hunt them down throughout North Africa as well as other parts of the Middle East.

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers - list of Nazi allies is long and infamous.  If England and Germany can put that ancient conflict behind them, then surely the Israelis and the Palestinians can do the same.  And by the way, I'll take your word for Muslim involvement with the Nazis, but the Wikipedia article makes almost no mention of it.  The only reference to Muslims is with respect to Iraq, which was "briefly an ally of the Axis".  I'm not sure why you would hold that against the Palestinians, except out of pure stereotyping and prejudice.

And as to Jews aiding the Palestinians economically.... remember when They took over Gaza, they were given 3,000  green houses to which they could have grown vegetables or any crop ... paid for by American Jewish donors. These cost Millions of dollars.

They were stripped down and destroyed in days by the Palestinians... so I think that the thing maybe people don't realize is that the people there may be very difficult to get along with.

That is really a low blow.  The greenhouses were looted by a lawless mob, and the Palestinian authorities were powerless to prevent it.  To turn it around and blame it on the Palestinians authorities themselves is like blaming the victim.

Maybe the real answer will have to come from Moderate Islamic nations who can somehow help the Palestinians shed the teachings of Hammas, if that is possible.

That's certainly part of the solution.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is going to help that process, or hinder it?



The killing of the Palestinian Civilians IS a horrible thing..... and this what is  shown on TV's throughout the world.... and well it should be shown!
But my contention is that by ONLY showing this....  anger and animosity is stirred up more and more through out the middle east.
 For months when rockets were being fired into Southern Israel.... people knew that Israel would eventually respond  ......   I mean did the UN hold any special conferences about the situation??  knowing what would eventually happen?   I bet they will pay attention now,.... but its to late.
and this stuff has been going on for decades.

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.

True as you say, very few Israelis have died... mostly because they have an early warning system, shelters and are not as densly packed in. And on the Palestinian side they have civilians right next to Rocket batterys and headquarters. Its not that Israel is targeting civilians, but it is portrayed as so


 But as Caring Heart says....   yeah, if someone was shooting a gun at your house every day..... and only occasionaly wounded one of your family members,
it would be very likely that you would take some action based on the psycological effect, that may even be disproportionate.

 as far as Israel making more concessions and giving aid to the people of Gaza.... YES, I think it would be great if they would, and I think Israel would if they thought it would make a positive difference.
 But, how can you make any such negotiation while you have rockets being fired at you every day? You can't make progress under those conditions , or would you even want to???  

I wouldnt mind the UN getting tough o Israel to make concessions to alleiviate the Living conditions of Palestinians.
But at the same time,  that can't be done if it is only to set up a new staging ground to launch rockets.







Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:23pm
Holding against the Palestinian people  past Alliances with the Nazi regime was not what I was trying to do,   but only to point out tthat there is a mind set that still persists today that runs parrellel to the Nazi beliefs.

Hitler blamed the Jews for all of Europes problems, said they were sub - human. That somehow this small minority was making life unlivable for everyone.

There are about 18 million Jews in the whole world and around six or so living in Israel.
  There are about 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world .... and still to many of those
the Jews are still the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong in the world. And they are accused of just about everything wrong in the Muslim world... It's as though their life is completely ruined as long as Jews are around.

It's the parellel in Ideology that I find disturbing because of where it might lead to.

FYI   heres a link i found other than wikipedia on the background.

http://israelxxpalestina.blogspot.com/2010/07/arabs-were-allies-and-supporters-of.html



 


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:39pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have to ask... if someone were constantly, consistently, regularly, throwing stones at your house and always breaking the windows, knocking down fences and walls... wouldn't you hit back with all the force you had to send a message to make it stop?  What recourse do you think you might take?  What would anyone do to protect themselves and their property?

You mean, if the neighbour kept smashing my property, would I go and shoot his kids?  No, I wouldn't.  Would you? Shocked

That's certainly part of the solution.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is going to help that process, or hinder it?

At what point do you have to put your foot down?  What is it that these people will understand?

Yeah really, eh?  At some point you just have to start killing people.  It's the only thing that will teach them not to kill people. Ermm

But you forgot to answer my question.  Do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza is more likely to promote peace, or prolong the war?  Why would you think that bombing Gaza will make the Palestinians less likely to retaliate, when bombing Israel it makes the Israelis more likely to retaliate?

Land for peace did not work, it was only turned into land for terror.

Like I said, the "land" you're talking about was not a gift.  It was stolen from the Palestinians and was only returned after years of UN resolutions ordering them to give it back.  You still seem to think that it was some kind of magnanimous gesture for which the Palestinians should be grateful.

How in the world can trust ever be built when one side refuses to lay down arms, stop the attacks, and work towards building their own nation... work towards peace between nations?

Yes, that is the challenge.  It's probably not reasonable to expect perfect compliance on the Palestinian side with any ceasefire. Remember that "lawless mob" I mentioned earlier, the one that looted those greenhouses?  If the authorities couldn't even stop petty crimes like that, do you really think they have perfect control over the paramilitary extremist groups within their borders?  In its current condition, lacking even basic resources and infrastructure, Gaza is constantly teetering on the edge of chaos.  It must be a nightmare to try to govern.  Rocket attacks may continue sporadically even with the best of intentions on the part of the authorities.

(Stop tilting at windmills and start building them instead)

Yeah, great suggestion.  Are you aware that until 2010 the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_allowed_or_banned_for_import_into_Gaza - embargo prohibited construction materials (concrete, steel, asphalt, insulation, etc.) from entering Gaza, and even now such supplies are severely restricted?



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 7:59pm

Originally posted by Blake

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.

The reality is that the situation is asymmetric: there is far more death and destruction on the Gaza side.  Do you want the media to report that reality, or would you rather have some make-believe fantasy story that suits your ideology?

True as you say, very few Israelis have died... mostly because they have an early warning system, shelters and are not as densly packed in. And on the Palestinian side they have civilians right next to Rocket batterys and headquarters. Its not that Israel is targeting civilians, but it is portrayed as so

Nobody (at least nobody credible) is saying otherwise.  That doesn't change the body counts.

But as Caring Heart says....   yeah, if someone was shooting a gun at your house every day..... and only occasionaly wounded one of your family members,
it would be very likely that you would take some action based on the psycological effect, that may even be disproportionate.

Maybe so.  But it would be morally wrong, and pragmatically counterproductive.  Let me ask again: do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza will help or hurt Israel in the long run?



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

You mean, if the neighbour kept smashing my property, would I go and shoot his kids?  No, I wouldn't.  Would you? Shocked

Yeah really, eh?  At some point you just have to start killing people.  It's the only thing that will teach them not to kill people. Ermm

Ok, points taken. Embarrassed  But what would you do to put an end to it?  In civil situations we turn to the law established by the government to be enforced.  So this is much more complicated. 

So in answer to your question... in matters of nation against nation the matter has always, always, been settled by who had the greater power.  Most know when to back down for the sake of self preservation.  Every intelligent general knows when to retreat.  This constant warring has to do with a poisonous ideology.

Why do you say the land was stolen?

I don't think it was a magnanimous gesture.  I think it was an effort at conciliation... an effort to obtain peace.  Did it obtain that peace?  What will satisfy the Palestinians... giving back the land didn't bring peace... it seems that nothing less than the extermination of Israel and dominance of Islam in the world.  Who is willing to submit to that?  We will forever be a world at war unless that ideology can be changed.

Yes, that is the challenge.  Rocket attacks may continue sporadically even with the best of intentions on the part of the authorities.

This is why I say the ideology must change.  This is why education is key.

Are you aware that until 2010 the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_allowed_or_banned_for_import_into_Gaza - embargo prohibited construction materials (concrete, steel, asphalt, insulation, etc.) from entering Gaza, and even now such supplies are severely restricted?


Yes, I have been paying attention to that fact.
Let me ask this... How is it that the Jews were able to enter into a desolated country and rebuild it?  Haven't other nations faced similar struggles?  How was America settled?  Were things handed to them or did they become innovators and hard workers?  These hardships are supposed to inspire people to go to work... to labor to make things better, to make the things they require, but they have to be able to turn their minds in a proper direction.  Stop focusing on the splinter and work on the plank.
Are you saying that it is impossible for the people living in Gaza to make their own materials for building... are they not able to be innovative?  I say yes they are, if they would turn their attention away from the rest of the world to solve their problems, and away from what the rest of the world has, and concentrate on what they have to build with.  Don't forget the bronze age followed the stone age.  How were the pyramids in Egypt built?  Who supplied their materials?
All that money spent on all those weapons, and all that ammunition, could be better spent in actually doing good for people instead of continuing senseless ideological battles.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.

The reality is that the situation is asymmetric: there is far more death and destruction on the Gaza side.  Do you want the media to report that reality, or would you rather have some make-believe fantasy story that suits your ideology?

[/quote]

If I may interject here... I am in agreement with Blake.
What we are saying is that the reporting on both sides must be done, not just the one side.  Israel has been under constant attack for a very extended period of time before they retaliated... but during all that time it was not at all being reported in the general media, so it makes this retaliation seem unjustified.  Why do we only hear about the attacks on Gaza and not the attacks on Israel that they live with every day?  People are being wounded regularly in Israel also.



Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 5:41pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

So in answer to your question... in matters of nation against nation the matter has always, always, been settled by who had the greater power.  Most know when to back down for the sake of self preservation.  Every intelligent general knows when to retreat.  This constant warring has to do with a poisonous ideology.

Sorry, if that was an answer to my question, I must have missed it.  My question was, do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza will help or hurt Israel in the long run? 

Why do you say the land was stolen?

Because it was taken by force during the Six Day War in 1967.

Let me ask this... How is it that the Jews were able to enter into a desolated country and rebuild it?

Because the Jews were not living under foreign occupation or subject to a blockade of basic necessities.

Are you saying that it is impossible for the people living in Gaza to make their own materials for building... are they not able to be innovative?

How do you make concrete without portland cement?  How do you make steel without iron, not to mention a huge industrial infrastructure and capital investment?

Or do you expect them to build a modern civilization out of sticks and sand?

All that money spent on all those weapons, and all that ammunition, could be better spent in actually doing good for people instead of continuing senseless ideological battles.

Good point.  You would think the Israelis would have learned by now.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

What we are saying is that the reporting on both sides must be done, not just the one side.  Israel has been under constant attack for a very extended period of time before they retaliated... but during all that time it was not at all being reported in the general media, so it makes this retaliation seem unjustified.  Why do we only hear about the attacks on Gaza and not the attacks on Israel that they live with every day?  People are being wounded regularly in Israel also.
 
Both sides are being reported.  Who isn't aware of the constant Palestinian attacks?  But they don't generally make the front page because frankly they just aren't such a big deal on a global scale.  It's mostly property damage, with some injuries but rarely any loss of life.  Compared to the Israeli attacks, they are really more of an irritant than a serious threat.
 
If the situation seems asymmetric, that's because it is asymmetric, not because the reporting makes it look that way.  The fact is that many more Palestinians are injured and killed by Israeli forces than vice versa.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

[/QUOTE]


Wow Ron, the more I talk to you the more twisted you seem to get.  I am surprised, as I am usually pretty much in agreement with you.
But, how did any civilization begin?  How did any civilization build itself?  Bricks are made of sand and straw, or mud and clay.  People have been living in the land of Palestine a very long time.  How have they done it in the past?

And wow, yeah, you think it is Israel that has the problem with wasting money on weapons and ammunition?  Where do you see any Israelites shooting off weapons in the street as celebration?  Israelites are intent on building not on attacking their neighbor.

I'm still trying to understand what brought about the six day war in 1967.  But war is war... there are losers in war... giving back the land taken was a gesture towards peace that did not have to be made... and yet, has it gotten Israel anything in the way of peace?  If Israel really wanted to make a land grab do you not think they have the power right now to go in and take over the whole of the land?  Why have they not done it?  I believe it is because they are willing to reach an equitable and peaceful solution among peoples.

Now as to my answer to your question... I guess there is no answer, we will have to wait and see.  I do not believe it is Israel's desire to be drawn in to doing battle.

Peace,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

they are really more of an irritant than a serious threat.
 


How would you (or anyone) like having to live with that "irritant"? 
Wouldn't you want your government to do something about it?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 6:47pm
six day war
in the run up to the Six-Day War, Israel’s existence seemed to hang in the balance. As the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan openly prepared for battle against Israel, and Arab leaders and the Arab "street" called for its destruction, Israel faced frightful choices.

The tensions continued to mount while Israel’s Prime Minister Levy Eshkol insisted, even as more and more Arab troops massed on the borders, that diplomatic attempts to resolve the crisis be exhausted before Israel would consider military action.

This was the nature of the Arab-Israeli conflict before the Six-Day War, or in other words, before Israel ever occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Often, in current discussions about the Middle East, Israel’s occupation is mischaracterized as the primary, if not the sole, cause of the conflict rather than an effect of it. Many journalists, unfamiliar with the relevant facts and context, and mistakenly believing that the starting point of Mideast tensions is the "occupation," may present flawed accounts that suggest the resolution of the tension can be achieved more or less simply by ending Israel's presence in the territories. This ahistorical description is found all too often in the U.S. media, but even more pervasively in the European setting.

The Six-Day War — the third major Arab-Israeli conflict — was in a sense a continuation of the first two wars. Broadly speaking, the causes of the fighting in 1967 overlapped with the causes of fighting in 1948 (Arab rejection of Israel) and 1956 (continued rejectionism and an Egyptian blockade of shipping to Israel). See here for more.

Specifically, the war stemmed from Egypt's decision to expel United Nations troops from the Sinai peninsula and blockade Israel's port of Eilat, under international law a casus belli, or act of war, in addition to belligerent Arab threats to destroy Israel.
Much more here:
http://www.sixdaywar.org/precursors.asp

Today is just more continuation of the same.
It must be acknowledged that all people have the right to exist in equality with one another.  Unless and until that can happen there will be no peace.


It is of interest to note that the Israeli's too have had to live and deal with blockades.  Was there any outcry about that when it was happening to them?  They've dealt with exile, and with being refugees in the world.  Let's look at how differently they dealt with their circumstances, their fate, their predicament.
Look at how well Iran right now, is dealing, and coping with, its situation.  It is being maleable, exerting their efforts in adjusting and innovating, to the hardships they have found themselves under.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 7:40pm
This is very simple.  The Gaza Strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights did not belong to Israel.  They were always intended to be Arab, according to the original UN Partition Plan.  Israel took them by force, and refused to give them back despite repeated UN Resolutions demanding that they do so.
 
All that other stuff you mentioned is true.  Like I keep saying, there is plenty of blame to go around here, and I'm not by any means suggesting that the Palestinians are entirely innocent victims.  But Israel stole the occupied territories.  That is a fact, and no amount of whinging about Arab aggression can change it.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 7:51pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

But, how did any civilization begin?  How did any civilization build itself?  Bricks are made of sand and straw, or mud and clay.  People have been living in the land of Palestine a very long time.  How have they done it in the past?

Yes, civilization built itself up from sand and straw.  And it took thousands of years.  Pardon me if I don't think that's a reasonable suggestion.  Pardon the Palestinians if they are not content to be pushed back into the Stone Age.

Now as to my answer to your question... I guess there is no answer, we will have to wait and see.

Of course there is an answer, and I think you know very well what it is.  Every act of aggression on one side leads to new acts of aggression from the other side.  You see that plainly when Palestinians attack Iraelis.  Why can you not see it (or admit it) when Israelis attack Palestinians?



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 6:09am
After all the death and destruction, back to status quo.


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Blake

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.
I am in agreement with Blake.What we are saying is that the reporting on both sides must be done, not just the one side.  Israel has been under constant attack for a very extended period of time before they retaliated... but during all that time it was not at all being reported in the general media, so it makes this retaliation seem unjustified.  Why do we only hear about the attacks on Gaza and not the attacks on Israel that they live with every day?  People are being wounded regularly in Israel also.
Yes, the restraint shown by Israel before they needed to react is extraordinary. If the mainstream media cared to report unbiased, we would have known that since the end of operation cast lead and upto october 2012 - just 271 Gazans were killed by the IDF and in self defense, while the Gazans genocided a whopping ZERO Israelis!   


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Yes, civilization built itself up from sand and straw.  And it took thousands of years.  Pardon me if I don't think that's a reasonable suggestion.  Pardon the Palestinians if they are not content to be pushed back into the Stone Age.

Others have done it... have had to do it.  How do you think America was settled?  How about Australia?


Of course there is an answer, and I think you know very well what it is.  Every act of aggression on one side leads to new acts of aggression from the other side.  You see that plainly when Palestinians attack Iraelis.  Why can you not see it (or admit it) when Israelis attack Palestinians?


If that were true none of the previous wars would have ever ended.  Wars end when one recognizes that it is overpowered by the other and either desists in their aggression or is made to desist.

and the other part of it... Israel is not attacking, it is defending itself.  I have not seen Israel go on the attack, only seek to defend itself from attack.

Germany went on the attack.  Other countries sought to defend themselves.  Germany was eventually overpowered and defeated.  That put an end to it.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Israel took them by force, and refused to give them back


And why did they do this?
Simple; self preservation.
It is every human's instinct to preserve oneself.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.

The reality is that the situation is asymmetric: there is far more death and destruction on the Gaza side.  Do you want the media to report that reality, or would you rather have some make-believe fantasy story that suits your ideology?

If I may interject here... I am in agreement with Blake.
What we are saying is that the reporting on both sides must be done, not just the one side.  Israel has been under constant attack for a very extended period of time before they retaliated... but during all that time it was not at all being reported in the general media, so it makes this retaliation seem unjustified.  Why do we only hear about the attacks on Gaza and not the attacks on Israel that they live with every day?  People are being wounded regularly in Israel also.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Caring heart.....   that's right. As I was saying, the deaths of the GAza civilians should not be downplayed or discounted in any way. But ,.... had the INTERNATIONAL news outlets been reporting heavily on the rocket attacks throught the summer and condemning them.... it is quite possible we may not be experiencing what we are seeing now.

How can Hammas be pressured to stop firing rockets when it's bareley reported ...and when it is reported its treated as no big deal becaus ethere are few deaths.  World opinion sides with the Paletinians to the point where it is actually hurting them Because they are being enabled.

I guarantee if Syria was firing rockets into Turkey every day for 8 months or so ... they would do something about it. Any other country in the world would.


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Ron Webb

Israel took them by force, and refused to give them back
And why did they do this?Simple; self preservation.It is every human's instinct to preserve oneself.
And the Palestinians are trying to do just that; simple.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

Unfortunately there is a one way bais in news reporting and it is actually hurting the Palestinians in the end of it all.

The reality is that the situation is asymmetric: there is far more death and destruction on the Gaza side.  Do you want the media to report that reality, or would you rather have some make-believe fantasy story that suits your ideology?

True as you say, very few Israelis have died... mostly because they have an early warning system, shelters and are not as densly packed in. And on the Palestinian side they have civilians right next to Rocket batterys and headquarters. Its not that Israel is targeting civilians, but it is portrayed as so

Nobody (at least nobody credible) is saying otherwise.  That doesn't change the body counts.

But as Caring Heart says....   yeah, if someone was shooting a gun at your house every day..... and only occasionaly wounded one of your family members,
it would be very likely that you would take some action based on the psycological effect, that may even be disproportionate.

Maybe so.  But it would be morally wrong, and pragmatically counterproductive.  Let me ask again: do you think that bombing and/or invading Gaza will help or hurt Israel in the long run?


I thought I had agreed with this one point before....    Yeah your right, the strikes will hurt Israel in relations with world opinion and negotiations ( in my opinion). At the same time ... I can understand why they are doing what they are doing..... but I can't REALLY understand because I'm not in their shoes..... or the shoes of the palestinians for that matter because there is a definate line between the average person there and HAmmas who have hijacked the country.




Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

This is very simple.  The Gaza Strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights did not belong to Israel.  They were always intended to be Arab, according to the original UN Partition Plan.  Israel took them by force, and refused to give them back despite repeated UN Resolutions demanding that they do so.
 
All that other stuff you mentioned is true.  Like I keep saying, there is plenty of blame to go around here, and I'm not by any means suggesting that the Palestinians are entirely innocent victims.  But Israel stole the occupied territories.  That is a fact, and no amount of whinging about Arab aggression can change it.


Yeah Ron.... but you have to understand at that point it haddnt been so long since the Jews had recently escapeed the ovens.

What if you were the Israeli leadership?  And you had the Responsibility of protecting your citizens. The Arabs who were surrounding you... who you just had a war with.. shared the philosophy of Adolph Hitler regarding your
existence. 

The Golan Hights is a very militarily strategic location threatening your country .... why would you give that to people  who would be firing missiles at you as they have been in Gaza?
And your country is very small.... If you get over run thats probbably IT for you and your people in a matter of days. Your marging for error is very small... the difference is extinction or survival.
And that responsibility you have to think about each night as you go to bed.


The thing is, Israelis are not trying to eliminate the Palestinians..... but there are many Arabs throughout the region who want to eliminate The Jews completely.

This is the main reason I can't see Israel as being a terrorist state..... they are fighting for survival.




Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by Blake



I guarantee if Syria was firing rockets into Turkey every day for 8 months or so ... they would do something about it. Any other country in the world would.


Well, and actually, this scenario has already played out, hasn't it?  Turkey did retaliate for rockets that landed over the border from Syria, and that put an end to it rather quickly too, didn't it.  There was a whole lot being said about the Syrian rockets that... as I saw it... 'went astray'.  I never was able to confirm if it was deliberate or accidental.  I originally thought that a Syrian rocket had simply gone astray and that Turkey over reacted, but not so sure now.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Shaik Speare

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Ron Webb

Israel took them by force, and refused to give them back
And why did they do this?Simple; self preservation.It is every human's instinct to preserve oneself.
And the Palestinians are trying to do just that; simple.


Yeah Sheik.......   then when there is a cease fire..... they have to desisit in sending misslies....  work on improving there lives .... if they show the Israelis they want to live next to them .... everything will  start to get better. When the threat is gone... the Israelis will eventually give more.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Shaik Speare

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Ron Webb

Israel took them by force, and refused to give them back
And why did they do this?Simple; self preservation.It is every human's instinct to preserve oneself.
And the Palestinians are trying to do just that; simple.


I dont like the Palestinian Children dying either... no one here does, how can anyone?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by Shaik Speare


 And the Palestinians are trying to do just that; simple.


Greetings Shaik Speare, (interesting name Smile)

Are they really?
or are they unnecessarily prolonging a conflict?
If they wanted to self preserve they would end the fighting, end the attacks, earn trust, and end the conflict.

salaam,
CH


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Blake

The Muslims in the region have to realize if Israel did not exist.....   women and children would still be suffering. It's the most conveinient thing to focus internal anger upon. They will just move on to the next thing.
Your concern for Muslim women and children is very touching. Israel must exist, if not as the Jewish homeland, atleast to protect the poor Mooslim women and children. It's acceptable if thousands of women and children are killed in the process; it's for the greater good.
Originally posted by Blake

There was a time when Jews lived through out North africa and the Arab Peninsula.. in countries like Yemen for example.  They were driven out and off their land. Who took their land??
Who??


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:37pm
I have to agree again with all that Blake has said... particularly that it is important to separate the people from the leadership... that Palestine has largely been hijacked from the people by Hamas.
and that no one wants to see the death and dying on either side... the impossibility to have a life when rockets are always falling from the sky and interfering with your days and your nights.  This is a ridiculous way for people to live.
But it must be recognized that one side is defending itself while the other side refuses to desist in warfare.  How can you put an end to conflict when one side refuses to give up their hostility towards the other?  When one side does not seek to put an end to it.


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Shaik Speare

 And the Palestinians are trying to do just that; simple.
Greetings Shaik Speare, (interesting name [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />)Are they really?or are they unnecessarily prolonging a conflict?If they wanted to self preserve they would end the fighting, end the attacks, earn trust, and end the conflict.salaam,CH
Greetings and salaam! The same applies to the Israelis. You can't expect to stop Gazan rocket fire as long as Israel lays an embargo and kills them. 271 Gazans have been killed by the IDF since the end of Cast Lead upto October 2012. Another one killed today, which according to the BBC is common even in a truce.


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 1:01pm
^And in that period ZERO Israelis were killed by Gazan rockets.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Shaik Speare

^And in that period ZERO Israelis were killed by Gazan rockets.


Only because Israel has good defense, certainly not for lack of trying.  Gaza has launched many more rockets towards Israel than Israel has responded with in return.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Shaik Speare

  Greetings and salaam! The same applies to the Israelis. You can't expect to stop Gazan rocket fire as long as Israel lays an embargo and kills them. 271 Gazans have been killed by the IDF since the end of Cast Lead upto October 2012. Another one killed today, which according to the BBC is common even in a truce.


Greetings again, Shaik Speare,

Do you understand why there is an embargo?  Because I do.  Israel is under constant threat from the region.  It seeks to protect itself by not allowing more arms into the area.

A question...
Does anyone know of a reason that Egypt blockaded Israel in the past?
What was their justification?  Did they have any just reason?

Israel has a just cause.  When Israel can feel safe it will no longer have need of embargo's.

As far as killing... it only happens in response to constant attacks from Gaza.

Salaam,
CH

[note:  "In 1955 alone, 260 Israeli citizens were killed or wounded by fedayeen."
http://www.adl.org/israel/record/sinai.asp
           It's not like this has not gone both ways.]


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

I have to agree again with all that Blake has said... particularly that it is important to separate the people from the leadership... that Palestine has largely been hijacked from the people by Hamas.and that no one wants to see the death and dying on either side... the impossibility to have a life when rockets are always falling from the sky and interfering with your days and your nights.  This is a ridiculous way for people to live.But it must be recognized that one side is defending itself while the other side refuses to desist in warfare.  How can you put an end to conflict when one side refuses to give up their hostility towards the other?  When one side does not seek to put an end to it.

That Hamas hijacked Palestine from its people is a moot point. They were democratically elected by their people and they have said on various occasions that they will peacefully accept a Palestinian state with pre-1967 borders. But the Israeli government is phobic of accepting a Palestinian state as indicated by an internal report by D.J. Schneeweiss of Israel's foreign ministry and another document proposing to topple Mahmoud Abbas if Palestine's bid for UN non-member status is approved. And why did Israel assassinate Ahmed Jabari who according to Israeli negotiator Gershon Baskin was carrying the draft of a long term ceasefire proposal when he was killed? And talk of the impossibility of living in Israel (lol), when they give the Palestinians much worse.


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Shaik Speare

^And in that period ZERO Israelis were killed by Gazan rockets.
Only because Israel has good defense, certainly not for lack of trying.  Gaza has launched many more rockets towards Israel than Israel has responded with in return.
And yet that good defense is supplemented by murderous offense, as the count of fatalities show.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 4:11pm

Originally posted by Blake

I thought I had agreed with this one point before....    Yeah your right, the strikes will hurt Israel in relations with world opinion and negotiations ( in my opinion). At the same time ... I can understand why they are doing what they are doing.....

So can I.  I can also understand why the Palestinians are doing what they are doing.  But it's still wrong, both morally and pragmatically.

... but I can't REALLY understand because I'm not in their shoes..... or the shoes of the palestinians for that matter because there is a definate line between the average person there and HAmmas who have hijacked the country.

Hijacked?  They won in a fair election, didn't they?  Do you really think that they don't represent the majority of Palestinians?



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 4:51pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Others have done it... have had to do it.  How do you think America was settled?  How about Australia?

Those were pre-industrial societies.  You can't whittle an iPod out of a block of wood.  Also, you can't compare settling an entire continent with a rich diversity of resources to a relatively tiny patch of semi-desert.

And anyway, who cares?  The Palestinians, like all peoples, have an inherent right to autonomy.  Why should they have to put up with blockades and occupation by a hostile foreign power?

If that were true none of the previous wars would have ever ended.  Wars end when one recognizes that it is overpowered by the other and either desists in their aggression or is made to desist.

But don't you see? -- the previous wars didn't end.  They just took intermissions to bury their dead and re-arm.  This fight has been going on for decades, or centuries depending on how you count it.  Don't you remember the Web site you quoted earlier? "The Six-Day War — the third major Arab-Israeli conflict — was in a sense a continuation of the first two wars."  Of course it was.  And every other clash has been a continuation of that.

and the other part of it... Israel is not attacking, it is defending itself.  I have not seen Israel go on the attack, only seek to defend itself from attack.

Just as the Palestinians are defending themselves.  Let me remind you: they are living under a foreign occupation.  Don't you think that gives them a right to defend themselves?  That doesn't mean I approve of their tactics, let alone the strategic wisdom of bombing civilians etc., but let's not pretend that the Palestinians don't have legitimate grievances.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 5:00pm

Originally posted by Blake

I guarantee if Syria was firing rockets into Turkey every day for 8 months or so ... they would do something about it. Any other country in the world would.

And I guarantee you that if Syria was under occupation by Turkey, and blockaded from getting even basic essential goods, they would do something about it.

And if both conditions existed simultaneously, then we would have another unending conflict, until one side or the other, or better still both, had the wisdom to break the vicious circle.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 5:26pm

Originally posted by Blake

What if you were the Israeli leadership?  And you had the Responsibility of protecting your citizens. The Arabs who were surrounding you... who you just had a war with.. shared the philosophy of Adolph Hitler regarding your existence.

I would launch the most massive, dramatic and comprehensive rebuilding and humanitarian aid program ever seen on this planet, designed to catapult the Palestinians out of poverty and restore their dignity and autonomy.  I would make it so generous that only a fool (or a hopeless ideologue) would consider bombing their benefactors.  (And even at that, it would probably be a fraction of what they are spending on the military now.)

I would couple that with a cooperative approach to policing and/or monitoring the activities of extremists and militants, who no doubt will be doing all they can to provoke a resumption of mutual hostilities.  After all, if the fighting stops, they're out of business.

Would it work?  Sure.  Will it ever happen? Of course not.  Because the dirty little secret of the Middle East is that neither side really wants this conflict to end.  To a large extent, they are defined by their mutual hatred.  They would rather suffer the consequences of an unending war than to see their enemy prosper.

The thing is, Israelis are not trying to eliminate the Palestinians..... but there are many Arabs throughout the region who want to eliminate The Jews completely.

I'm not so sure about that.  If they thought for a moment that the world would let them get away with it, I bet the Israelis would happily bomb the Palestinians into oblivion once and for all.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 12:16am
Originally posted by Shaik Speare

Originally posted by Blake

The Muslims in the region have to realize if Israel did not exist.....   women and children would still be suffering. It's the most conveinient thing to focus internal anger upon. They will just move on to the next thing.
Your concern for Muslim women and children is very touching. Israel must exist, if not as the Jewish homeland, atleast to protect the poor Mooslim women and children. It's acceptable if thousands of women and children are killed in the process; it's for the greater good.
Originally posted by Blake

There was a time when Jews lived through out North africa and the Arab Peninsula.. in countries like Yemen for example.  They were driven out and off their land. Who took their land??
Who??


Who.... Well as i nderstand it, it was 1947 after United nations partitioning resolution that all over the middle east in countries like Egypt Algeria Iraq etc.. Jews were imprisoned, their accounts frozen businesses confiscated,
they were denied the rights to make a living in society and forced out one way or another.

Is this wrong?

And your sarcasm is well taken as well... but that's ok, I don't really care. I am sorry people are dying. But what I said is true, the peoples of the middle east have been doing just fine hurting each other without the Jews to blame.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 12:23am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

I thought I had agreed with this one point before....    Yeah your right, the strikes will hurt Israel in relations with world opinion and negotiations ( in my opinion). At the same time ... I can understand why they are doing what they are doing.....

So can I.  I can also understand why the Palestinians are doing what they are doing.  But it's still wrong, both morally and pragmatically.

... but I can't REALLY understand because I'm not in their shoes..... or the shoes of the palestinians for that matter because there is a definate line between the average person there and HAmmas who have hijacked the country.

Hijacked?  They won in a fair election, didn't they?  Do you really think that they don't represent the majority of Palestinians?



So you think the majority of Palestinians in Gaza want to be firing rockets into Israel? Rockets that are fired in close proximity to their homes making them targets??

I highly doubt that....  that's Hammas using those people for human shields. I call that highjacking.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 12:42am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake

What if you were the Israeli leadership?  And you had the Responsibility of protecting your citizens. The Arabs who were surrounding you... who you just had a war with.. shared the philosophy of Adolph Hitler regarding your existence.

I would launch the most massive, dramatic and comprehensive rebuilding and humanitarian aid program ever seen on this planet, designed to catapult the Palestinians out of poverty and restore their dignity and autonomy.  I would make it so generous that only a fool (or a hopeless ideologue) would consider bombing their benefactors.  (And even at that, it would probably be a fraction of what they are spending on the military now.)

I would couple that with a cooperative approach to policing and/or monitoring the activities of extremists and militants, who no doubt will be doing all they can to provoke a resumption of mutual hostilities.  After all, if the fighting stops, they're out of business.

Would it work?  Sure.  Will it ever happen? Of course not.  Because the dirty little secret of the Middle East is that neither side really wants this conflict to end.  To a large extent, they are defined by their mutual hatred.  They would rather suffer the consequences of an unending war than to see their enemy prosper.

The thing is, Israelis are not trying to eliminate the Palestinians..... but there are many Arabs throughout the region who want to eliminate The Jews completely.

I'm not so sure about that.  If they thought for a moment that the world would let them get away with it, I bet the Israelis would happily bomb the Palestinians into oblivion once and for all.



Hey if that plan would work , Id be all for it as well.... but again look what happened when Israel gave back Gaza...  And I realize you don't think Palesinians should be thankful for that ( because you say it was previously theirs) but that is also part of the problem. Nobody is thankful for anything  anyone does for them with that attitude. Should Israel have done more? and more than in the link below? sure they should.... but until they see some sort of reciprocation when ever they show a sign of good will towards the Palestinians.... building trust is going to be a very hard thing to do.

http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Israels-Support-of-the-Palestinian-Economy.html





Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 8:05am

Originally posted by Blake


http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Israels-Support-of-the-Palestinian-Economy.html - http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Israels-Support-of-the-Palestinian-Economy.html

Thanks for the link.  I don't have time to comment on all the points made in that article, but here are the first few:

(1) In September 2012, with the Palestinian Authority (PA) facing severe financial strain due to a shortfall in international donations and significant overspending, Israel advanced the PA 250 million shekels in tax revenues to aid the Palestinian economy. Similarly, in July 2012, Israel advanced the PA 180 million shekels to ensure that the salaries of PA employees were paid before the Muslim holiday of Ramadan.

By "advance" I presume they mean a repayable loan.  Just for comparison, Israel spends about http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-08/14/content_15675953.htm - 50 billion shekels annually on their military.

(2) Since the signing of the 1993 Oslo accord, real GDP per capita in the West Bank has increased considerably. From 1998-2011, these numbers grew from about $1,750 to about $2,000 according to the June 2012 U.S. congressional report U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians. The report also notes that Gaza experienced a considerable rise in real GDP per capita from 2002-2005 before the Hamas takeover.

That's nice, but I don't know what it has to do with Israel.

(3) In order to reduce the level of Palestinian unemployment, Israel has increased the number of permits for Palestinians to work in Israel - by 40% since February 2011.

You don't see the irony of this?  First Israel invades their territory, steals their land and establishes Jewish settlements.  They carve up the remaining Palestinian areas into tiny enclaves that cannot be economically self-sufficient.  Then they issue permits to allow the Palestinians back onto their own land as foreign workers to provide cheap labour.  And again you expect the Palestinians to be grateful for this?

(4) Despite the constant barrage of rocket attacks emanating from the Gaza Strip, Israel provides most of the electric supply for both the West Bank and Gaza. Approximately half of Gaza’s electricity is supplied directly from Israel by way of the Israel Electric Corporation (IEC). The remaining supply comes mostly from the Gaza Power Plant (GPP), which is funded not by Hamas but by the Palestinian Authority.

Awfully nice of them, considering that Israel is the main reason Gaza can't supply its own power.  Due to the blockade, the Gaza Power Plant depends on http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17028000 - fuel smuggled in via tunnels from Egypt.  That's when it's operating at all, but until recently it was shut down completely due to http://www.imemc.org/article/64005 - Israeli air strikes .

 

 



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 8:12am

Originally posted by Blake

So you think the majority of Palestinians in Gaza want to be firing rockets into Israel? Rockets that are fired in close proximity to their homes making them targets??

Yeah, I think so.  Just as I think that the majority of Israelis want to punish the Palestinians via the blockade, colonization, etc., even though they know it will result in rockets landing on their front lawns and suicide bombers on their buses.  Like I said, they would rather suffer the consequences of an unending war than to see their enemy prosper.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Blake


http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Israels-Support-of-the-Palestinian-Economy.html - http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Israels-Support-of-the-Palestinian-Economy.html

Thanks for the link.  I don't have time to comment on all the points made in that article, but here are the first few:

(1) In September 2012, with the Palestinian Authority (PA) facing severe financial strain due to a shortfall in international donations and significant overspending, Israel advanced the PA 250 million shekels in tax revenues to aid the Palestinian economy. Similarly, in July 2012, Israel advanced the PA 180 million shekels to ensure that the salaries of PA employees were paid before the Muslim holiday of Ramadan.

By "advance" I presume they mean a repayable loan.  Just for comparison, Israel spends about http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2012-08/14/content_15675953.htm - 50 billion shekels annually on their military.

(2) Since the signing of the 1993 Oslo accord, real GDP per capita in the West Bank has increased considerably. From 1998-2011, these numbers grew from about $1,750 to about $2,000 according to the June 2012 U.S. congressional report U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians. The report also notes that Gaza experienced a considerable rise in real GDP per capita from 2002-2005 before the Hamas takeover.

That's nice, but I don't know what it has to do with Israel.

(3) In order to reduce the level of Palestinian unemployment, Israel has increased the number of permits for Palestinians to work in Israel - by 40% since February 2011.

You don't see the irony of this?  First Israel invades their territory, steals their land and establishes Jewish settlements.  They carve up the remaining Palestinian areas into tiny enclaves that cannot be economically self-sufficient.  Then they issue permits to allow the Palestinians back onto their own land as foreign workers to provide cheap labour.  And again you expect the Palestinians to be grateful for this?

(4) Despite the constant barrage of rocket attacks emanating from the Gaza Strip, Israel provides most of the electric supply for both the West Bank and Gaza. Approximately half of Gaza’s electricity is supplied directly from Israel by way of the Israel Electric Corporation (IEC). The remaining supply comes mostly from the Gaza Power Plant (GPP), which is funded not by Hamas but by the Palestinian Authority.

Awfully nice of them, considering that Israel is the main reason Gaza can't supply its own power.  Due to the blockade, the Gaza Power Plant depends on http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17028000 - fuel smuggled in via tunnels from Egypt.  That's when it's operating at all, but until recently it was shut down completely due to http://www.imemc.org/article/64005 - Israeli air strikes .

 

 



I agree with you that the Israelis continuing to settle in the West bank is not a good thing. And the past settlements were not really a good thing....  for the points you have already made.
  But I still really feel that Israel made a step forward by removing settlements from Gaza and had that been met with some kind of thanks instead of rockets fired, much more progress could have been made by now. For instance there wouldnt be any reason to have a blockade and economic growth would be much better in that region.

But as to the Land being stolen, that was captured in a war....  that the Palestinians were at least equally responsible for along with the other Arabs who wanted to wipe out Israel.

Having said that, I think it probably be best if Israel did eventually pull out their other settlements for the benefit of everyone in the long run. But as I was thinking before... it's very hard to think about these negotiations well someone is firing missiles at you.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 3:46pm

Originally posted by Blake

But I still really feel that Israel made a step forward by removing settlements from Gaza and had that been met with some kind of thanks instead of rockets fired, much more progress could have been made by now. For instance there wouldnt be any reason to have a blockade and economic growth would be much better in that region.

I agree.  Plenty of blame to go around.

But as to the Land being stolen, that was captured in a war....  that the Palestinians were at least equally responsible for along with the other Arabs who wanted to wipe out Israel.

As far as I'm concerned, the guy who throws the first punch is the one who started the fight.  "I didn't like the way he was lookin' at me" is not an excuse IMHO.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Shaik Speare

But the Israeli government is phobic of accepting a Palestinian state as indicated by an internal report by D.J. Schneeweiss of Israel's foreign ministry and another document proposing to topple Mahmoud Abbas if Palestine's bid for UN non-member status is approved. And why did Israel assassinate Ahmed Jabari who according to Israeli negotiator Gershon Baskin was carrying the draft of a long term ceasefire proposal when he was killed? And talk of the impossibility of living in Israel (lol), when they give the Palestinians much worse.


Shaik Speare,

About being phobic... at this point... Wouldn't you be?  Wouldn't you want your country to err on the side of caution after all that has transpired if it were you sitting in the other ones shoes?

I don't know about the rest, but if you are correct about a draft having been made for a long term ceasefire when Jabari was killed, then there is indeed a problem.

and, I don't know that the offense is any worse than what Palestine is launching at Israel.  I do not know the particulars of the weapons being used.  To me a bomb is a bomb, all with devastating consequences.  More deaths does not necessarily mean worse attacks.  It can mean less defense... less place or time to get to safety, more dense population.  I don't say this in a callous way.  Any death is bad.  I just don't know that we can say that Israel is necessarily hitting back any harder than what they put up with.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb


 Why should they have to put up with blockades and occupation by a hostile foreign power?

Hi Ron,

First I don't know that I agree that Israel is hostile.  But second,
Again... What would you want, or expect, your country to do if you were being threatened?
An ipod is not a necessity of life.
People seem to have lost the entire concept of needs... needs are food, shelter, and clothing.  Those things can certainly be worked on, if they would cease to be so focused on fighting and more focused on building.  Gaza could build itself a community where it supplied its own needs... if it had proper guidance to do so.  All through history people have survived on the land in which they found themselves with no outside help from anyone.
If I am correct the Gaza strip has long been fought over as far back as the Philistines.  The people there survived as fisherman.  I am convinced that Gaza does have the means to provide for itself if it would give up doing battle.

Re: "The first two wars" ... this is referring to the war of 1948 and 1956... the Arab-Israeli conflicts
The Six-Day War — the third major Arab-Israeli conflict — was in a sense a continuation of the first two wars. Broadly speaking, the causes of the fighting in 1967 overlapped with the causes of fighting in 1948 (Arab rejection of Israel) and 1956 (continued rejectionism and an Egyptian blockade of shipping to Israel).
WWI and WWII which were western wars of aggression, have been put to an end.  These were the wars I was referring to.  Those and the war of independence of the United States from England, and the Mexican/American war, and the United States civil war.  I was referring to the fact that sensible, rightly guided, people know when it is time to bring war to an end.

Don't you think that gives them a right to defend themselves? 


If that would work.  As I have noted, other nations in the past have known when it was time to submit so that they could move forward.  No one wants to live under 'occupation' but there comes a time to cease calling it an occupation and accept defeat and learn to live under the new rule.  How do you think the Ottoman empire was established?


And I love your plan if it would work. That approach worked with Germany after WWII when the world realized its mistake of not helping Germany to recover after WWI.  It does not work with Muslims.  They are offended by any assistance coming from what they see to be the infidel.  They would rather die.  So just as Blake says... there would be no appreciation, no building of good will, only more resentment.  As I keep saying, this is the product of an evil ideology.  One that promotes dissention among people rather than peace and love.  It is the ideology that has to change... to be gotten rid of.

I don't say that Palestinians don't have legitimate grievances, but I do say that the power to change things is in their hands.

Peace,
CH



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:10pm
Thank you Blake for the link and providing people with a proper perspective.
An informed portion of the populace is able to see the irrational continuance of the Arab world in blaming its problems on the existence of Israel simply because the people, and nation, of Israel knows how to succeed.
I highly recommend this link(and others) as well,
http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48891337.html?s=raw
(warning:  some parts are likely to be offensive to the muslim senses, as they were even to mine, but this is the other side of the coin, and to have peace we must come to understand one another and how things look from the other side)
Many very informative articles there.  Two sides of a coin...
Heart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

As far as I'm concerned, the guy who throws the first punch is the one who started the fight.  "I didn't like the way he was lookin' at me" is not an excuse IMHO.


Typically I would agree, but you do realize that if Israel were to sit by while forces continued to build on all sides, making no secret of their mission, it would not stand a chance of defending itself.

I wouldn't want my country to leave me sitting in that position either.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:18pm
Just came across this quote while reading:

"If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be peace tomorrow. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel."

It is sadly, but of a truth.

More recommended reading;
http://www.aish.com/jw/me/An_Open_Letter_to_Alice_Walker.html

If ye seek after truth.

Dr. Hamid: "If you have Russia or China becoming strong, at least they care for the absolute value of life. You can put your issues on the table and say: “Neither of us wants to be destroyed. So let’s find a way to live in peace.” But

with Iranian radicals, the rules are different. They desire your destruction, and are undeterred by self-destruction. "
Isn't this the very definition of evil?
Dr. Hamid: I will never forget when the Israeli Air Force was above Cairo in 1967 in a war initiated by the Arabs. The Israelis could have destroyed all of Cairo but they did not. I know very well that if the opposite had happened and the Egyptian Air Force was above Tel Aviv, they would not have hesitated for even a moment to destroy the entire city.
http://www.aish.com/jw/me/My_Life_as_an_Egyptian_Muslim_Radical.html


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:33pm
Caringheart,
you wrote: "First I don't know that I agree that Israel is hostile."
That is the most arrogant political statement I have heard from you.
You need to spend a little bit time in reading the history going back to at least 1930 and inform yourself of some harsh truth of this matter. I am ashamed as an American that my tax Dollars go unconditionally to Israel to commit murder, atrocities, intimidation, apartheid and so on and to cover up those crimes.
You know it is important that we also be fair not just well informed. Only with those two we will have something good coming out of our mouth.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Just came across this quote while reading:"If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be peace
tomorrow. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no
Israel."It is sadly, but of a truth.More recommended reading;http://www.aish.com/jw/me/An_Open_Letter_to_Alice_Walker.htmlIf ye seek after truth.




Caringheart,
how that can be true. Palestinians do not have an Army or Air force and their is no Palestine. If there was a Palestine with its own Army that matched Israel's, I guarantee there will be peace. When there is equality or so there is peace. See how US and USSR now Russia have peace between them, because both have power and capability to destroy the other and that works as a balancing factor toward peaceful coexistence. The only other way to peace would be if there was no weapon, not a single one owned by any.

Anything forcefully imposed can only be kept by force, like the state of Israel was actually imposed by force on Palestine, and once you remove that imposing power, it will go back to be Palestine, not by force but just by removing force and impose.

Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
you wrote: "First I don't know that I agree that Israel is hostile."
That is the most arrogant political statement I have heard from you.
You need to spend a little bit time in reading the history going back to at least 1930 and inform yourself of some harsh truth of this matter. I am ashamed as an American that my tax Dollars go unconditionally to Israel to commit murder, atrocities, intimidation, apartheid and so on and to cover up those crimes.
You know it is important that we also be fair not just well informed. Only with those two we will have something good coming out of our mouth.
Hasan


Greetings Hasan, and welcome back.  I trust you had safe travels.

Regarding your comment you need to read, if you can with an open mind, the links I have posted above.

Oh and try to read all of my posts.  Smile
My whole point is to be informed... of both sides of the coin... so that we are fair in judgement.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 5:01pm
CAringheart,
Thank you, yes it was a great trip (All Praise to God), we drove as always and enjoyed it. Things have changed, otherwise we would like to go more often as we used to do.

I was talking about your comment: "First I don't know that I agree that Israel is hostile." that is nothing less than an arrogant comment if I may repeat. Why did you say that if you are well aware of what is going on?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 10:11pm

Assalamu Alaikum/Peace be on you,

Here is an informative lecture by Miko Peled, the son of an Israeli general:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Caringheart


Just came across this quote while reading:"If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be peace
tomorrow. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no
Israel."It is sadly, but of a truth.More recommended reading;http://www.aish.com/jw/me/An_Open_Letter_to_Alice_Walker.htmlIf ye seek after truth.




Caringheart,
how that can be true. Palestinians do not have an Army or Air force and their is no Palestine. If there was a Palestine with its own Army that matched Israel's, I guarantee there will be peace. When there is equality or so there is peace. See how US and USSR now Russia have peace between them, because both have power and capability to destroy the other and that works as a balancing factor toward peaceful coexistence. The only other way to peace would be if there was no weapon, not a single one owned by any.

Anything forcefully imposed can only be kept by force, like the state of Israel was actually imposed by force on Palestine, and once you remove that imposing power, it will go back to be Palestine, not by force but just by removing force and impose.

Hasan


Greeting Honeto,

Well, but wait. You say Israels existence was imposed by force on Palestine.....   but who determined the boundaries but the British at the turn of the century. I thought Palestine was simply something they made
up to keep their empire in order.

Before that Jerusalem was inhabited by people from all over the world... or so I remember from earlier reading... am I wrong about that?

There was no line seperating Jordan from what today is considereed Palestine.  That was all made up by the brittish. So aren't the Jordanians basically the same people as the palestinians?

So the British made up the lines of Palestine, and what is Israael... and what was called the Trans- Jordan. But there was no real force I believe until the Jews were really forced to fight. The palestinians threw in their lot  with the rest of the Arabs..... they probably got a little greedy as well,
or at least thought the Jews didnt stand much of a chance.

So they lost.... and from that point became an enemy of Israel.....  and also remember that not all Jews in Israel are of European Ancestry ...
many of them were displaced from around the Middle East and actually have their rightful place in the area. Where else would those belong?

I think the Jews need to realize that the palestinians have their rightful place ....  ( and many jews are fighting for plaestinian rights...note peace activist groups inside of Israel)
And likewise Gaza needs to recognize Jews are historically tied to that land. I'm not aware if Hammas has changed the wording in their founding charter .. but I know the original calls for the destruction of Israel openly.
Has that changed??
 


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:47am
Originally posted by Blake

Who.... Well as i nderstand it, it was 1947 after United nations partitioning resolution that all over the middle east in countries like Egypt Algeria Iraq etc.. Jews were imprisoned, their accounts frozen businesses confiscated,they were denied the rights to make a living in society and forced out one way or another. Is this wrong? And your sarcasm is well taken as well... but that's ok, I don't really care. I am sorry people are dying. But what I said is true, the peoples of the middle east have been doing just fine hurting each other without the Jews to blame.
The Jewish exodus from Arab/Muslim lands, both voluntary and involuntary, was essentially caused by the creation of Israel and the resulting dispossession of the Palestinians. Until then Jews lived in relative harmony in Arab/Muslim lands. Ironically the discrimination of Jews was convenient to the Zionist movement than it was possibly to the Arabs. Besides, there are Jews still living in Arab/Muslim lands. And is the notion of liberating Muslim women and children through Israeli hegemony any less sarcastic?


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:55am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCQx47kN6tI -


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 8:45am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Again... What would you want, or expect, your country to do if you were being threatened?

If you mean the Palestinians, I would expect them to fight back, just as they are doing.  I wouldn't advise it in this case, but it is a natural and understandable response.

As for Israel, the Palestinians do not pose an existential threat to Israel in the way that Israel does to the Palestinians.  In case you haven't noticed, there is no independent Palestinian state, and if Israel has their way there probably never will be.  So who is really threatened?

An ipod is not a necessity of life.

Hasan has chosen to focus on another statement to indicate your arrogance, but IMHO this is the worst.  You really do want to force the Palestinians back to the Stone Age, don't you?

No, an iPod is not a necessity.  Neither are concrete and steel for making buildings.  The Palestinians can live in mud huts with no air conditioning in the summer, and burn camel dung to keep warm in the winter.  As long as they can work on the land that the Israelis stole -- sorry, "captured" -- from them, then that is "peace" according to you, eh?

Your forum name is becoming increasingly ironic.

And I love your plan if it would work. That approach worked with Germany after WWII when the world realized its mistake of not helping Germany to recover after WWI.  It does not work with Muslims.  They are offended by any assistance coming from what they see to be the infidel.  They would rather die.  So just as Blake says... there would be no appreciation, no building of good will, only more resentment.  As I keep saying, this is the product of an evil ideology.  One that promotes dissention among people rather than peace and love.  It is the ideology that has to change... to be gotten rid of.

You're very close to the line here.  If you want to continue to participate in this forum, I'd suggest that you choose your words more carefully.



-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:27pm
Really Ron,  Do you really not see the big picture?  That Gaza is only the staging ground of the bigger battle?  The more ground Gaza gains the greater the threat to Israel becomes unless Gaza can present a show of sincerity that they desire peace with Israel.
Ron, it is not Israel that seeks to do battle with its neighbors.  They have been forced to do battle.  So no it is not arrogance when I say that I do not view them as hostile.  I view them as protective of their people and of their interests.  If they were hostile they could really go on the aggressive and I am sure succeed.  I believe that they are wise enough to know this would achieve nothing.  No I do not see them as the hostile ones, although I am sure it is fast approaching that point with the civilian population which is, I am sure, tired of the constant barrage of attacks on their lives, on their existence.
I do care.  The point that you seem to keep missing is that it is in the Palestinians hands what their future holds.  It is up to them to change their tactic if they want to be brought into the modern age.  If they would begin to build from within instead of continuing a battle with outsiders they would meet with progress.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

The point that you seem to keep missing is that is in the Palestinians hands what their future holds.
 
When have I ever disputed that?  Haven't I said it often enough yet that both sides are to blame?  This isn't an either/or situation -- you can't absolve the Israelis of blame by pointing out that the Palestinians also are to blame.


-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shaik Speare
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Shaik Speare,About being phobic... at this point... Wouldn't you be?  Wouldn't you want your country to err on the side of caution after all that has transpired if it were you sitting in the other ones shoes?
No I wouldn't be, neither does D.J. Schneeweiss sitting in the other one's shoes.
Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't know about the rest, but if you are correct about a draft having been made for a long term ceasefire when Jabari was killed, then there is indeed a problem.and, I don't know that the offense is any worse than what Palestine is launching at Israel.  I do not know the particulars of the weapons being used.  To me a bomb is a bomb, all with devastating consequences.  More deaths does not necessarily mean worse attacks.  It can mean less defense... less place or time to get to safety, more dense population.  I don't say this in a callous way.  Any death is bad.  I just don't know that we can say that Israel is necessarily hitting back any harder than what they put up with.Salaam,CH
I would agree that the lack of fatalities does not necessarily mean lack of murderous intent, if that's what you meant. As you say, Palestinians are a defence less population living in less space... and have committed acts of terror. But if you are not aware of the disproportionate use of force, wanton destruction of Palestinian lives, property and infrastructure by "the most moral army in the world" and if the testimonies of var ious human rights groups incriminating them of human rights abuses and war crimes is invisible to you, try    www.breakingthesilence.org.il     Salaam


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 1:26pm
an Interesting video I found on the Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qLgQW7kBhk

Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by peacemaker

Assalamu Alaikum/Peace be on you,

Here is an informative lecture by Miko Peled, the son of an Israeli general:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ




To tell you the truth this is the first time I have ever heard any of this. And coming from the son of an Israeli general, it does paint the Israelis as the agressors in the dividing of the lands..... though my viewer did not allow me to watch the whole thing, it stops half way through the video.

after seeing this video, I need to revisit some history on the subject as I am actually a bit shocked by his story. And I would need to find out some more avout Miko Peled as well. Thanks for the info.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 3:46am
As mentioned in the other thread humans need to think big to solve the Middle East conflict. Otherwise people on both sides will continue to get killed. Michael Lerner is someone who thinks big and he wrote down his thoughts:

http://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Israel-Palestine-Strategy-Transform/dp/1583943072 - http://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Israel-Palestine-Strategy-Transform/dp/1583943072

"A major modern conundrum is how the Arab/Israel conflict remains unresolved and, seemingly, unresolvable. In this inspirational book, Rabbi Michael Lerner suggests that a change in consciousness is crucial. With clarity and honesty, he examines how the mutual demonization and discounting of each sides’ legitimate needs drive the debate, and he points to new ways of thinking that can lead to a solution. Lerner emphasizes that this new approach to the issue requires giving primacy to love, kindness, and generosity. It calls for challenging the master narratives in both Israel and Palestine as well as the false idea that “homeland security” can be achieved through military, political, economic, or media domination. Lerner makes the case that a lasting peace must prioritize helping people on all sides (including Europe and the U.S.) and that real security is best achieved through an ethos of caring and generosity toward “the other.” As many spiritual leaders have taught, problems like these cannot be solved at the same level at which they originated—one must seek higher ground, and that becomes a central task for anyone who wants a sustainable peace. Embracing Israel/Palestine is written for those looking for positive, practical solutions to this ongoing dilemma."



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Dick
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 1:47pm




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You are here: Home > Noam Chomsky: Palestine 2012 – Gaza and the UN resolution
Israel, Palestine, United States

Noam Chomsky: Palestine 2012 – Gaza and the UN resolution

By Noam Chomsky on 12/02/2012









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An old man in Gaza held a placard that reads: “You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.” [1]





The old man’s message provides the proper context for the timelines on the latest episode in the savage punishment of Gaza. They are useful, but any effort to establish a “beginning” cannot help but be misleading. The crimes trace back to 1948, when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled in terror or were expelled to Gaza by conquering Israeli forces, who continued to truck them over the border for years after the official cease-fire. The persecution of Gazans took new forms when Israel conquered the Strip in 1967. From recent Israeli scholarship we learn that the goal of the government was to drive the refugees into the Sinai, and if feasible the rest of the population too.

Expulsions from Gaza were carried out under the direct orders of General Yeshayahu Gavish, commander of the Southern Command. Expulsions from the West Bank were far more extreme, and Israel resorted to devious means to prevent the return of those expelled, in direct violation of Security Council orders. The reasons were made clear in internal discussion immediately after the war. Golda Meir, later Prime Minister, informed her Labor colleagues that Israel should keep the Gaza Strip while “getting rid of its Arabs.” Defense Minister Dayan and others agreed. Prime Minister Eshkol explained that those expelled cannot be allowed to return because “We cannot increase the Arab population in Israel” — referring to the newly occupied territories, already tacitly considered part of Israel. In accord with this conception, all of Israel’s maps were changed, expunging the Green Line (the internationally recognized borders), though publication was delayed to permit UN Ambassador Abba Eban to attain what he called “favorable impasse” at the General Assembly, by concealing Israel’s intentions. [2]

The goals may remain alive, and might be a factor contributing to Egypt’s reluctance to open the border to free passage of people and goods barred by the US-backed Israeli siege.

The current upsurge of US-Israeli violence dates to January 2006, when Palestinians voted “the wrong way” in the first free election in the Arab world. Israel and the US reacted at once with harsh punishment of the miscreants, and preparation of a military coup to overthrow the elected government, routine procedure. The punishment was radically intensified in 2007, when the coup attempt was beaten back, and the elected Hamas government established full control over Gaza.

The standard version of these events is more anodyne, for example, in the New York Times, November 29: “Hamas entered politics by running in, and winning, elections in the Palestinian territories in 2006. But it was unable to govern in the face of Western opposition and in 2007 took power in the Gaza Strip by force, deepening the political split [with Fatah and the Palestinian Authority].” [3]

Ignoring immediate Hamas offers of a truce after the 2006 election, Israel launched attacks that killed 660 Palestinians in 2006, mostly civilians, one-third minors. The escalation of attacks in 2007 killed 816 Palestinians, 360 civilians and 152 minors. The UN reports that 2879 Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire from April 2006 through July 2012, along with several dozen Israelis killed by fire from Gaza. [4]

A truce in 2008 was honored by Hamas until Israel broke it in November. Ignoring further truce offers, Israel launched the murderous Cast Lead operation in December. So matters have continued, while the US and Israel also continue to reject Hamas calls for a long-term truce and a political settlement in accord with the international consensus on a two-state settlement that the US has blocked since 1976, when the US vetoed a Security Council resolution to this effect, brought by the major Arab states.

In late 2012 the US devoted extensive efforts to block a General Assembly resolution upgrading Palestine’s status to that of a “non-member observer state.” The effort failed, leaving the US in its usual international isolation on November 29, when the resolution passed overwhelmingly on the anniversary of the 1947 General Assembly vote on partition. [5] The reasons Washington frankly offered for its opposition to the resolution were revealing: Palestine might approach the International Criminal Court on Israel’s U.S.-backed crimes, which cannot be permitted judicial review for reasons that are all too obvious. A second concern, the New York Times reported, was that “the Palestinians might use the vote to seek membership in specialized agencies of the United Nations,” which could lead Washington to defund these international organizations, as it cut off financing to UNESCO in 2011 when it dared to admit Palestine as a member. The Master does not tolerate disobedience. [6]

Israel had warned that it would “go crazy” (“yishtagea”) if the resolution passed, reviving warnings from the 1950s that it would “go crazy” if crossed — not very meaningful then, much more so now. [7] And indeed, hours after the UN vote Israel announced its decision to carry forward settlement in Area E1 that connects the vastly expanded Greater Jerusalem that it annexed illegally to the town of Ma’aleh Adumim, greatly expanded under Clinton after the Oslo Accords, with lands extending virtually to Jericho, effectively bisecting the West Bank if the Area E1 corridor is closed by settlement. [8] Before Obama, US presidents had barred Israel’s efforts to expand its illegal settlements into the E1 region, so it was compelled to resort to stealth measures, like establishing a police station in the zone. Obama has been more supportive of Israeli criminal actions than his predecessors, and it remains to be seen whether he will keep to a tap on the wrist with a wink, as before.

Israel and the US insist on “direct negotiations” as the only “path to peace.” They also insist on crucial preconditions. First, the negotiations must be under US leadership, which makes as much sense as asking Iran to mediate Sunni-Shiite conflicts in Iraq. Genuine negotiations would take place under the auspices of some neutral party with a claim to international respect, perhaps Brazil, and would have the US and Israel on one side of the table, and most of the rest of the world on the other. A second precondition, left tacit, is that expansion of Israel’s settlements must be allowed to continue in one or another form (as happened, for example, during the formal 10-month “suspension”), with Washington signaling its disapproval while continuing to provide the required support.

The call for “direct negotiations” without substance is an old Israeli tactic to prevent steps towards diplomatic settlement that would impede its expansionist projects. After the 1967 war, the respected diplomat Abba Eban, who was in charge of the effort, was highly praised by Golda Meir and other colleagues in the governing Labor Party for his success at the United Nations in carrying forward “Israel’s peacemaking strategy” of confusion and delay, which came to “take the shape of a consistent foreign policy of deception,” as it is described by Israeli scholar Avi Raz in a detailed review of internal records. [9] At that time the tactics angered US officials, who protested vigorously though to no effect. But much has changed since, particularly since Kissinger took control of policy and the US largely departed from the world on Israel-Palestine.

The practice of delay goes back to the earliest Zionist settlement, which sought to “create facts” on the ground while keeping goals obscure. Even the call for a “Jewish commonwealth” was not made officially by the Zionist organization until a May 1942 meeting at the Biltmore hotel in New York.

Returning to Gaza, one element of the unremitting torture of its people is Israel’s “buffer zone” within Gaza from which Gazans are barred entry, almost half of Gaza’s limited arable land according to Sara Roy, the leading academic scholar of Gaza. From September 2005, after Israel transferred its settlers to other parts of the occupied territories, to September 2012, Israeli security forces killed 213 Palestinians in the zone, including 154 who were not taking part in hostilities, 17 of them children. [10]

From January 2012 to the launching of Israel’s latest killing spree on November 14, Operation Pillar of Defense, one Israeli was reported to have been killed by fire from Gaza while 78 Palestinians were killed by Israel fire. [11]

The full story is naturally more complex, and considerably uglier.

The first act of Operation Pillar of Defense was to murder Ahmed Jabari. Aluf Benn, editor of Ha’aretz, describes him as Israel’s “subcontractor” and “border guard” in Gaza, who enforced relative quiet in Gaza for over five years. [12] The pretext for the assassination was that during these five years Jabari had been creating a Hamas military force, with missiles from Iran. [13] Plainly, if that is true it was not learned on November 14.

A more credible reason was provided by Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who had been involved in direct negotiations with Jabari for years, including plans for the release of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Baskin reports that hours before Jabari was assassinated, “he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the ceasefire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip.” A truce was then in place, called by Hamas on November 12. Israel apparently exploited the truce, Reuters reports, directing attention to the Syrian border in the hope that Hamas leaders would relax their guard and be easier to assassinate. [14]


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Throughout these years, Gaza has been kept on a level of bare survival, imprisoned by land, sea and air. On the eve of the latest attack, the UN reported that 40 percent of essential drugs and more than half of essential medical items were out of stock. [15] One of the first of the series of hideous photos that were sent from Gaza in November showed a doctor holding the charred corpse of a murdered child. That one had a personal resonance. The doctor is the director and head of surgery at Khan Yunis hospital, which I had visited a few weeks earlier. In writing about the trip I reported his passionate appeal for desperately needed simple drugs and surgical equipment. These are among the crimes of the US-Israeli siege, and Egyptian complicity.

The casualty rates from the November episode were about normal: over 160 Palestinian dead, including many children, and 6 Israelis. Among the dead were three journalists. The official Israeli justification was that “The targets are people who have relevance to terror activity.” Reporting the “execution” in the New York Times, David Carr observes that “it has come to this: killing members of the news media can be justified by a phrase as amorphous as ‘relevance to terror activity’.” [16]

The massive destruction was all in Gaza. Israel used advanced US military equipment for the slaughter and destruction, and relied on US diplomatic support, including the usual US intervention to block a Security Council call for a cease-fire. [17]


Graphics by Don Nash at Skulzwerks

With each such exploit Israel’s global image erodes. The images of terror and destruction, and the character of the conflict, leave few remaining shreds of credibility to the self-declared “most moral army in the world,” at least among people with eyes open.

The pretexts for the assault were also the usual ones. We can put aside the predictable declarations of the perpetrators in Israel and Washington, but even decent people ask what Israel should do when attacked by a barrage of missiles. It’s a fair question, and there are straightforward answers.

One response would be to observe international law, which allows the use of force without Security Council authorization in exactly one case: in self-defense after informing the Security Council of an armed attack, until the Council acts (UN Charter, Article 51). Israel understands that well. That is the course it followed at the outbreak of the June 1967 war, but of course Israel’s appeal went nowhere when it was quickly ascertained that it was Israel that had launched the attack. Israel did not follow this course in November, knowing well what would be revealed in a Security Council debate.

Another narrow response would be to agree to a truce, as appeared quite possible before the operation was launched on November 14, as often before.

There are more far-reaching responses. By coincidence, one illustration is discussed in the current issue of the journal National Interest. The authors, Asia scholars Raffaello Pantucci and Alexandros Petersen, describe China’s reaction after rioting in western Xinjiang province “in which mobs of Uighurs marched around the city beating hapless Han [Chinese] to death.” Chinese president Hu Jintao quickly flew to the province to take charge, senior leaders in the security establishment were fired, and a wide range of development projects were undertaken to address underlying causes of the unrest. [18]

In Gaza too a civilized reaction is possible. The US and Israel could end the merciless unremitting assault and open the borders, and provide for reconstruction — and if it were imaginable, reparations for decades of violence and repression.

The cease-fire agreement stated that the measures to implement the end of the siege and the targeting of residents in border areas “shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.” There is no sign of steps in this direction. Nor is there any indication of US-Israeli willingness to rescind their policy of separating Gaza from the West Bank in violation of the Oslo Accords, to end the illegal settlement and development programs in the West Bank designed to undermine a political settlement, or in any other way to abandon the rejectionism of the past decades.

Some day, and it must be soon, the world will respond to the plea issued by the distinguished Gazan human rights lawyer Raji Sourani while the bombs were once again raining down on defenseless civilians in Gaza: “We demand justice and accountability. We dream of a normal life, in freedom and dignity.” [19]

Article by Noam Chomsky | © Sabbah Report: http://sabbah.biz/mt/?p=15852

Notes

[1] http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-war-between-israel-and-hamas-has-its-roots-in-britains-shameful-betrayal-of-the-palestinians-8327052.html.

[2] Avi Raz, The Bride and the Dowry (Yale, 2012).

[3] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/world/middleeast/leader-of-hamas-calls-for-palestinian-unity.html?src=twrhp.

[4] Slater, International Security, Nov-Dec 2012. http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2012/11/israel-and-palestinians.

[5] http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2012/ga11317.doc.htm.

[6] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/world/middleeast/us-and-israel-look-to-limit-impact-of-palestinian-authority-upgrade.html.

[7] Barak Ravid, Ha’aretz, Oct. 26, under the headline “Yisrael Mazhira et Ha-Olam: Ba’al Habayit Yishtagea” (“Israel warns the world: the head of the household will go crazy”). http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.1850595.

[8] http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/israel/index.html.

[9] Raz, op. cit.

[10] Roy, http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/11/23/roy/sctFniw6Wn2n9nTdxZ91RJ/story.html?s_campaign=8315. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/24/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?ref=global-home.

[11] Ibid.

[12] http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-killed-its-subcontractor-in-gaza.premium-1.477886.

[13] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/world/middleeast/arms-with-long-reach-bolster-hamas.html?_r=0.

[14] http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-peace-activist-hamas-leader-jabari-killed-amid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/. http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/11/15/world/middleeast/15reuters-palestinians-israel-deception.html?scp=5&sq=bronner+Jaabari&st=nyt.

[15] Mads Gilbert, 11-17-12.

[16] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/26/business/media/using-war-as-cover-to-target-journalists.html?_r=0.

[17] http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/20/us-blocks-un-security-council-call-for-gaza-cease-fire-as-unbalanced-against/.

[18] http://nationalinterest.org/article/chinas-inadvertent-empire-7615.

[19] http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/11/20121117115136211403.html.














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About Noam Chomsky
Avram Noam Chomsky (born December 7, 1928) is an American linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, logician, historian, political critic, and activist. He is an Institute Professor and Professor (Emeritus) in the Department of Linguistics & Philosophy at MIT, where he has worked for over 50 years. In addition to his work in linguistics, he has written on war, politics, and mass media, and is the author of over 100 books. According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index in 1992, Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar from 1980 to 1992, and was the eighth most cited source overall. He has been described as a prominent cultural figure, and he was voted the "world's top public intellectual" in a 2005 poll.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 3:40pm
Dick, if you're going to paste that entire article into the discussion ( which you shouldn't anyway -- a few quotes and a link would suffice), then AT LEAST you could clean it up a bit, and provide a http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2012/12/02/palestine-2012-gaza-and-the-un-resolution/ - link to the source , as required by the http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ - Creative Commons copyright.

-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by peacemaker

<!--[if gte mso 9]><>
<o:OfficeSettings>
<o:AllowPNG/>
</o:OfficeSettings>
</><![endif]-->

<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Assalamu
Alaikum/Peace be on you, </span>



<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Here is an
informative lecture by Miko Peled, the son of an Israeli general:</span>



<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ </span>







Jazakallah,
everyone interested in understanding Palestinian Israeli issue need to see this video.
This guy is a true believer, in truth, and there are many people like him. I hope the world see it. Many know it, hope they stand up for the right.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 3:48pm
Gotta say, with the latest developments it seems neither side will work towards peace.  One just keeps instigating with the other, on and on.  This is why Britain got fed up and left.  Neither side will do any thing to build trust with one another.
Just watched a very interesting discussion of the situation on PBS Newshour.
At this point I am all for sanctions of Israel, for their arrogance.  I wonder if the U.S. president will act.
Truth does reveal itself.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 6:16am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Gotta say, with the latest developments it seems neither side will work towards peace.  One just keeps instigating with the other, on and on.  This is why Britain got fed up and left.  Neither side will do any thing to build trust with one another.
Just watched a very interesting discussion of the situation on PBS Newshour.
At this point I am all for sanctions of Israel, for their arrogance.  I wonder if the U.S. president will act.
Truth does reveal itself.


I agree. I'm totally outraged by yesterday's announcement for building new settlements in the West Bank. Israelis need to vote for a different government. Otherwise we won't see any progress.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 3:01pm
Matt and Caringheart,
I agree that this time United States has to be tough and stand firm, because this has happened so many times before and Israel has built tens of such settlements each time, and get away with that as the US gives in to the Zionist pressure in Washington.
I hope the US shows them the door this time. It can help build our image as a strong independent country, not bending to anyone's pressure, nor blackmailed by Israeli lobby.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 7:40pm
http://www.wickedlocal.com/shrewsbury/news/opinions/x2105845509/Granlund-cartoon-Israel-and-new-settlements?photo=0">Color%20edit%20toon%20Israel%20&%20settlements.jpg


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 7:54am
I agree. Likewise should all Islamic countries be tough and stand firm against the Hamas approach. We need moderation on both sides.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 23 December 2012 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Ok, so I don't see where all the confusion is.  

Gaza-Israel Nov. 14, 15, 2012

a few facts

The operation, launched after days of rocket fire from the coastal territory, was Israel's most intense attack on Gaza since its full-scale war there four years ago.

The Israeli military said the some 20 airstrikes were part of a major offensive dubbed "Operation Pillar of Defense," according to a Reuters report.

Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets on several locations in Gaza early Thursday, warning Gazans to stay away from Hamas, other militants and their facilities.

The Israeli military said its aircraft targeted more than 20 facilities that served as storage or launching sites for rockets.

For the past four years, Israel and Hamas have largely observed an informal truce. But in recent weeks, the calm has unraveled in a bout of rocket attacks from Gaza and retaliatory Israeli airstrikes.

In my view.  If Gaza/Hamas is going to continue aggression towards Israel how is it then that they cry out at the consequences brought about by their own actions?  When Gaza aims its projectiles at Israel they are untargeted, heading for nothing more than civilian populations.  When Israel strikes back with deadly accuracy at militarial targets they are condemned.  Yes, Israel is more deadly, so stop the aggression.  There are consequences for actions.  When a mosquito continues to buzz around ones ear eventually it gets swatted.
I just don't get it.
Yes I grieve at the deadly force of Israel and the deaths that are involved,  but the deaths of innocent persons are on both sides of the fence.  I understand that Israel wants an end to the aggression constantly aimed at their civilian population.  They think that the display of their power will convince the other side not to engage deadly forces.  At least they are not just sending random rockets into Gaza.  They do have specified targets.
I know this is an unpopular view on this forum, but facts are facts, and we must look at the situation as it is.

I just wish all the aggression would stop and people would behave like civilized human beings and reach a settlement with one another.


Caringheart,

Are you aware that before the rocket attacks and during times of "lull", the IDF has been shooting Palestinian fishermen and farmers in Gaza trying to harvest their crops???

http://palsolidarity.org/tag/fishermen/

Do you have any idea how the IDF treats Palestinians in the West Bank???

I have been there personally, please feel free to check out my blog:

www.livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.com

During my few weeks in Hebron, I witnessed a settler beating of a Palestinian in his own yard, witnessed settlers invade Palestinian property and stone sheep, witnessed the IDF throw sound grenades at, and beat up and arrest peaceful demonstrators, saw a Palestinian field that was set on fire with petrol, was called in to respond to a settler attack on a Palestinian family, was beaten up by settlers and hospitalized and was threatened by the Israeli army, was also in a Bedouin village that a week after our visit was demolished by the Israeli police and army in the Negev. This was from early July to the third week of August, 2010 when things were 'peaceful'.

No, I do not support Hamas or their rocket attacks that terrify and injure and at times kill Israeli civilians. But to portray Israel as a "victim" in this is a joke.


I invite you to visit Israel and Palestine and see what is happening.


Please please please do not be one of those 'christians' who defends Israel's abuses of the Palestinian people. By doing so you not only act against Jesus who will judge us on the basis of how we treated the poor and oppressed (Matt 25:31-49) but also defend injustice in His name.

Wake up!!!!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 3:00pm
Thank you TG12345,

I did not know of these other injustices, and this is horrible. 
I have been looking for people to talk to online for just this reason. 
(I have been so pleased to speak with a few Iranians on another forum.)  I can not travel to see for myself the full truth of the situation and do not like to rely on media reporting.  I do know the truth always lies somewhere in the middle.  I definitely did not mean to portray Israel as a victim, but only meant to say that I understand their retaliations.  You did see where I said,
"I just wish all the aggression would stop and people would behave like civilized human beings and reach a settlement with one another."
I did, and do, mean the aggression on both sides.  Only when people can treat each other equally as human beings will we find peace with one another.
Now, yes, the world needs to know more of these other things.
Thanks for sharing.
Caringheart

added thought:  Can we not make this about being 'Christian' or non-Christian?  This is a humanity issue.  There are plenty of people of all faiths, and of no faith, that I am sure are not well informed.  How many are simply struggling every day for their own survival?  How many are there, that do not have the ability to travel, and have never traveled?  We can only know what we know, and what we have time for seeking.



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