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CHRISTIANS:WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24276
Printed Date: 31 July 2014 at 10:52am


Topic: CHRISTIANS:WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS?
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: CHRISTIANS:WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS?
Date Posted: 12 November 2012 at 2:55pm
I need to know if all christians have a uniform belief on this subject.



Replies:
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 11:33am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Christians, who can forgive sins?
I need to know if all christians have a uniform belief on this subject.

Response: --- The natural answer is, --- “Only God can forgive sins.”
--- But Jesus came as the Messenger and Servant of God. --- And what has caused the big controversy is that, He was CALLED the Son of God,
And it is rightly said that Almighty God could not have a Son by any relationship with Mary, --- But Gabriel didn’t say that He WAS the Son of God, but that He would be CALLED the Son of God, --- And God would be CALLED His Heavenly Father.

If you bear in mind that it was the same angel Gabriel who announced the birth of John the Baptist, and Jesus in Luke 1, and in Surah 19, --- that gave the Revelations to Muhammad, in the Quran, --- then you can understand the connection. --- It says in Luke 1:
19 And the angel answered and said to him (Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist), “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”]
29 But when she saw him she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

It says about the same in Surah 19:
20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

So, --- It is not befitting (out of the ordinary, and below the Dignity of God), --- that He should beget a Son, --- but ‘Glory be to Him’ --- when He determines a matter (like sending One into the world who is CALLED His Son), --- He only says to it, “Be!” and it is. --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, throughout the NT.)

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit of God and every miracle was done through the power of the Holy Spirit, --- so if after a healing or miracle, Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” --- it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Him:
Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
Luke 7:48 (To a woman who repented with weeping), Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
--- So, the Holy Spirit of God, knowing the hearts of men, --- if they were repentant, forgave their sins, through Jesus.


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:07pm
Cyril,
you are mixing too many things together, a common trap tactic. But I will take one of the things that has to do with the topic.
What does this verse mean to you?
"Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Christians, who can forgive sins?
I need to know if all christians have a uniform belief on this subject.

Response: --- The natural answer is, --- “Only God can forgive sins.”
--- But Jesus came as the Messenger and Servant of God. --- And what has caused the big controversy is that, He was CALLED the Son of God,
And it is rightly said that Almighty God could not have a Son by any relationship with Mary, --- But Gabriel didn’t say that He WAS the Son of God, but that He would be CALLED the Son of God, --- And God would be CALLED His Heavenly Father.

If you bear in mind that it was the same angel Gabriel who announced the birth of John the Baptist, and Jesus in Luke 1, and in Surah 19, --- that gave the Revelations to Muhammad, in the Quran, --- then you can understand the connection. --- It says in Luke 1:
19 And the angel answered and said to him (Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist), “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”]
29 But when she saw him she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

It says about the same in Surah 19:
20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

So, --- It is not befitting (out of the ordinary, and below the Dignity of God), --- that He should beget a Son, --- but ‘Glory be to Him’ --- when He determines a matter (like sending One into the world who is CALLED His Son), --- He only says to it, “Be!” and it is. --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, throughout the NT.)

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit of God and every miracle was done through the power of the Holy Spirit, --- so if after a healing or miracle, Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” --- it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Him:
Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
Luke 7:48 (To a woman who repented with weeping), Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
--- So, the Holy Spirit of God, knowing the hearts of men, --- if they were repentant, forgave their sins, through Jesus.


Placid



did you mistakenly list your religion as "christian" instead of 'Muslim'? if you are trying to prove Christianity correct by quoting the Quran, you are barking up the wrong tree. you can only use it if you believe it is the word of God.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 4:36am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: did you mistakenly list your religion as "christian" instead of 'Muslim'? if you are trying to prove Christianity correct by quoting the Quran, you are barking up the wrong tree. you can only use it if you believe it is the word of God.

Response: --- No, not a mistake.
When I first came on a Muslim site some years ago, I said I wanted to learn about Islam, and a Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- I had a Pickthall translation so I read it through, making notes on each Surah, as well as reading the intro to each one.

I learned the history of Muhammad and I have high regard for him as well as the Quran. --- I believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God as it says in Surah 3:
3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

The Book refers to the Old and New Testaments given to Muhammad as part of the new revelations to him. --- Many Surahs were not yet revealed at this time, about the third year of the Hijrah, and the Quran was many years away from being in Book form.
--- About half of the Quran refers to the history in the OT and the Gospels, does it not?
--- Now I understand why you don’t want any background from the OT and Prophecy --- Nor do you want me to quote from the Quran, which I enjoy studying.

Since 3:7 says, “And none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”
--- It seems that since you don’t really accept Gabriel's 'confirmation’ of the former Scriptures, then you don’t believe his revelations to Muhammad, therefore, --- you don’t really believe what the Quran says.
--- I guess that is the difference, --- I believe the revelations from Gabriel to Muhammad, and compare them to the former Scriptures.

I notice in your questions (which I thought should be answered), --- that you have a keen interest in Jesus, of what He said and did, --- but without much understanding.
--- I will try to keep my answers more concise.


Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 4:48am
Hi Mahdi,

Actually, you can Identify me as a Muslim (surrendered one) if you like.

You say that Abraham was a Muslim (surrendered one), so anyone who identifies with him would be of Islam, is that not right? --- And it says in Surah 2:
130 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
131 Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

And Jesus was identified as the Miracle healer sent from God in verse 49, and it continues in Surah 3:
50 '(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53 "Our Lord (God)! - we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); - then write us down among those who bear witness."
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

--- (Does that not say that those who follow Jesus will be going to heaven?
So it identifies that the Faith of Abraham, and surrender to God, identifies a Muslim, --- And in v50 Jesus said, ---“Obey Me,” --- which is the same as in the Gospel where Jesus said, “Follow Me.”
--- So, ‘obeying Jesus,’ or ‘following Jesus,’ as the disciples did, leads to the Way that is straight. --- So, in that sense, --- true believing followers of Jesus could be called Muslims, could they not?)   

And in the NT, it said this nearly 600 years before it was written in the Quran --- in Galatians 3:
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; --- but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Placid



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 29 December 2012 at 2:47am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

Quote: did you mistakenly list your religion as "christian" instead of 'Muslim'? if you are trying to prove Christianity correct by quoting the Quran, you are barking up the wrong tree. you can only use it if you believe it is the word of God.

Response: --- No, not a mistake.
When I first came on a Muslim site some years ago, I said I wanted to learn about Islam, and a Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- I had a Pickthall translation so I read it through, making notes on each Surah, as well as reading the intro to each one.

I learned the history of Muhammad and I have high regard for him as well as the Quran. --- I believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God as it says in Surah 3:
3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

The Book refers to the Old and New Testaments given to Muhammad as part of the new revelations to him. --- Many Surahs were not yet revealed at this time, about the third year of the Hijrah, and the Quran was many years away from being in Book form.
--- About half of the Quran refers to the history in the OT and the Gospels, does it not?
--- Now I understand why you don’t want any background from the OT and Prophecy --- Nor do you want me to quote from the Quran, which I enjoy studying.

Since 3:7 says, “And none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”
--- It seems that since you don’t really accept Gabriel's 'confirmation’ of the former Scriptures, then you don’t believe his revelations to Muhammad, therefore, --- you don’t really believe what the Quran says.
--- I guess that is the difference, --- I believe the revelations from Gabriel to Muhammad, and compare them to the former Scriptures.

I notice in your questions (which I thought should be answered), --- that you have a keen interest in Jesus, of what He said and did, --- but without much understanding.
--- I will try to keep my answers more concise.


Placid



I believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God as it says in Surah 3: 3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) 4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution. 7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.


So u r a muslim? again you are using the Quran as the basis of your belief. your arguments do not make any sense. you cannot believe n the Bible and Quran at the same time. choose one.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 1:46pm
Hi Mahdi

Quote: So u r a muslim? again you are using the Quran as the basis of your belief. your arguments do not make any sense. you cannot believe n the Bible and Quran at the same time. choose one.

Response: --- Since the angel Gabriel said that the Quran confirmed the former Scriptures, in 625 AD, --- and there have been no changes to the Scriptures or the Quran since then, --- I believe what it says.

I believe also what Muhammad was taught to say and to teach in Surah 3:
84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in surrender)."

Also these verses from Surah 4:
162 "But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee (Muhammad) and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practice regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.
163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms."


My question is? --- Are these all different people in the Quran, than the ones that are in the former Scriptures that Gabriel confirmed?


Placid



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 04 January 2013 at 4:35am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi

Quote: So u r a muslim? again you are using the Quran as the basis of your belief. your arguments do not make any sense. you cannot believe n the Bible and Quran at the same time. choose one.

Response: --- Since the angel Gabriel said that the Quran confirmed the former Scriptures, in 625 AD, --- and there have been no changes to the Scriptures or the Quran since then, --- I believe what it says.

I believe also what Muhammad was taught to say and to teach in Surah 3:
84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in surrender)."

Also these verses from Surah 4:
162 "But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee (Muhammad) and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practice regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.
163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms."


My question is? --- Are these all different people in the Quran, than the ones that are in the former Scriptures that Gabriel confirmed?


Placid



Response: --- Since the angel Gabriel said that the Quran confirmed the former Scriptures, in 625 AD, --- and there have been no changes to the Scriptures or the Quran since then, --- I believe what it says.
stop arguing then.


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 05 January 2013 at 5:43pm
I'm trying to recall a time when Jesus actually said "I forgive your sins".
 
As I recall, Jesus, having a direct connection with God would have known when God forgave a sin and then could easily say "Your sins are forgiven".
 
We are all capable of forgiving the sins of those who commited them against us. That may not clear them with God, but I'm sure it would help. 


-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 5:04am
Originally posted by Placid

Actually, you can Identify me as a Muslim (surrendered one) if you like.

Assalam alaik Placid,

You are trying to prove that the Quran and the Bible, in their present form, are compatible and have the same message. You compare versus from both books that agree, but ignore all the others that contradict and disagree.

Muslims are told by God (SWT) that the Quran is the complete, preserved and final message, and it is a blessing from Him and we should be thankful:

"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." (5:3)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/15:9
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:82
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/41:42
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:85
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:19

Muslims trust in the Quran and consider it to be the only remaining, complete, unaltered, true word of God (SWT). Muslims cannot trust or rely on other books because they could have been altered. Muslims believe in the books revealed by the prophets, but not the current versions that are in contradiction with the Quran.

That said, it seems you agree with the teaching of the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the Quran. Which implies that you believe that Mohammad (pbuh) was the last messenger of God (SWT) after Jesus (pbuh). And you identify yourself as being a Muslim.

For this reason, are you prepared to declare that you are a Muslim by saying the following:
"There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"?



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:10pm
Hi Rational,

Quote: You are trying to prove that the Quran and the Bible, in their current form, are compatible and have the same message. You use versus from both books that agree, but ignore all the others that contradict and disagree.


Response: --- Yes sir, --- I have said I could be considered a Muslim by the identification often used for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as in Surah 2:
130 Pickthall: And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.
131 When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! he said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds.
132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

And in some translations it uses the word, Islam, as in this one:
130 Yusuf Ali: And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
131 Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

Quote: Muslims are told by God (SWT) that the Quran is the complete, preserved and final message, and it is a blessing from Him and we should be thankful:

Response: --- I have no problem with that, but what is the actual reference in the Quran?

I should explain that some years ago, after what is called 9/11, there was so much negative publicity about the terrorists, that it put a black mark on Islam, --- but was it all justified? --- Before that I observed Muslims as sincere people, modest in dress, and supposedly of good moral character.

I had previously come across a Pickthall translation of the Quran where I worked and thought I would read it sometime. --- So, this was the time.
While I was reading it from a Christian point of view, I was amazed by the amount of history and compatibility I saw with the former Scriptures. --- On entering a forum similar to this one, I said I was interested in learning about Islam.
--- A Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- So I did. --- I even made notes of similarities, and continued to study.

I learned that Al-Islam meant “The Surrender,” or “Submission,” --- and Muslims are “Surrendered ones.” --- So how can we compare that to Christians?

Rather than making this post too long, I will continue later. --- I appreciate your questions and will answer them, and hopefully we can continue discussing.


Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:34pm
Hi Webber,

Quote: I'm trying to recall a time when Jesus actually said "I forgive your sins".

--- There is an incident in Matthew 9:
1 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city.
2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?
5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins” —then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”      
7 And he arose and departed to his house.
8 Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.

--- It may have been a special display ‘in His own city’ --- as not so many believed in Him there.



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 4:50am
Originally posted by Placid

Quote: Muslims are told by God (SWT) that the Quran is the complete, preserved and final message, and it is a blessing from Him and we should be thankful:

Response: --- I have no problem with that, but what is the actual reference in the Quran?

Assalamo Alaik Placid,

Thanks for your reply.

Complete and Final:
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:3 - 5:3 )

Preserved:
"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." ( http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/15:9 - 15:9 )

But you didn't answer my question - In claiming that you are a muslim, do you believe in the two parts of the following sentence?
"There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"?



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 14 January 2013 at 1:19pm
Hi Rational,

Quote:Thanks for your reply.
Complete and Final:
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." (5:3)
Preserved:
"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (15:9)

Response: --- Okay, 5:3 confirms that the religion of Islam means “Surrender unto God,” --- which I mentioned in the first response, where we identify this surrender with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. --- Then with the Apostles of Jesus, --- and this is the faith and “Surrender unto God” that I follow, --- as Jesus said in Surah 3:
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

My first question is? --- If this is the Way that is straight for a Christian, can there be a straighter Way?

Your first statement was:
Quote: You are trying to prove that the Quran and the Bible, in their current form, are compatible and have the same message. You use verses from both books that agree, but ignore all the others that contradict and disagree.

--- So, While I am answering your further questions, I wonder if you will make a list of new laws written in the Quran that are not in the former Scriptures?

--- Because I just use the Bible and the Quran, I don’t read any links or hadiths, as only the revelations that God gave to Muhammad through Gabriel are inspired, are they not?
I have read that Muhammad said to his companions, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”

--- So if you can first give a list with the references to new laws in the Quran that we should follow, we can start with that,
And then you can list some of the ones I ignore, “that contradict and disagree.”


Placid



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 15 January 2013 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Placid

...

Assalamo Alaik Placid,

Third time I'll ask you the same question. Remember I asked first so it's your turn to answer. If you're not comfortable with this question you can say so and we'll happily move on.

In claiming that you are a muslim, do you believe in the two parts of the following sentence?
"There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"?


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:31am
Hi Rational,

Quote: Third time I'll ask you the same question. Remember I asked first so it's your turn to answer. If you're not comfortable with this question you can say so and we'll happily move on.
In claiming that you are a muslim, do you believe in the two parts of the following sentence?
"There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"?

Response: --- Actually that was the last question you asked in your first post and I was going through it systematically, to find out what is ‘ignored and disagreeable’ between the Bible and the Quran, --- and what new laws there are in the Quran that are not in the former Scriptures.

I am a Christian, so, a follower of Jesus. --- However, I gave the identification from verses in the Quran that since the word Islam means ‘Surrender,’ --- and Muslim means, ‘a surrendered one,’ --- then I identify with the faith of Abraham who was ‘surrendered’ unto his Lord in Genesis. --- And with the disciples mentioned in Surah 3:52, who were called ‘surrendered ones’ or ‘Muslims’ by some translators.
--- The name Christian means ‘Christ’s ones.’

No, I am not a Muslim according to your definition.
--- But when we get through the other questions, we can discuss this further.
--- I have high regard for Muhammad and the Quran, as you know, and we all believe there is only One Almighty God.

However, what bothers me is this:
While this is meant to be a statement of faith for Muslims, --- when used as a creed by the terrorists, it ‘defames’ Muhammad, because it identifies him as the leader of the terrorists, under God.

--- God led Muhammad in a Mission to destroy idolatry in Arabia, and restore faith in One God, --- which he accomplished. --- I believe it was at that point that God revealed the profound statement that is tucked away in Surah 5:
3 “This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”
--- Because before Muhammad brought peace and declared victory, and the completion of his Mission at his ‘Farewell Pilgrimage’ in year 10 of the Hijrah, shortly before he died, --- he still had enemies and objecters to the Faith, did he not?


Placid



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:17am

‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by Placid


Response: --- Actually that was the last question you asked in your first post and I was going through it systematically...

hmmm. I swear I asked the first question before anything... But nevermind. The pages are there if we needed to go back.

Originally posted by Placid


No, I am not a Muslim according to your definition.

So the answer to my question is no, you don't believe in both parts of that sentence. For that I can't take you as a muslim. Us muslims must not be tempted into assuming that you are a muslim. The Quran is clear.

"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves." (48:29)

If you are not a believer in the Messenger of Allah, then you are not one of us, Muslims.

Originally posted by Placid


However, what bothers me is this:
While this is meant to be a statement of faith for Muslims, --- when used as a creed by the terrorists, it ‘defames’ Muhammad, because it identifies him as the leader of the terrorists, under God.

This is because you are one of many that have been accustomed to a sheeple way of thinking without any logical reasoning or evidence. That's what modern mainstream media does. It pollutes the hearts and minds and most are falling victims to it. Are you speaking of those masked terrorists that are funded by governments and keep mysteriously appearing on TV? They are being promoted to demonise Islam, the true religion that stands in the way of thier evil goals. Those terrorist??? Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. This lie was invented by the very people that want to destroy the truth and they don't care how many lives are involved. The latest word we keep hearing is "islamist". They are "Innovators" and Allah Azza Wajal will put them all to shame.

Don't tell me you believe that 9/11 was done by 19 guys from a cave? Stop it now!


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:29am
Hi Rational,

This was your original post on page 2:

Quote: Originally posted by Placid
Actually, you can Identify me as a Muslim (surrendered one) if you like.

Assalam alaik Placid,

You are trying to prove that the Quran and the Bible, in their present form, are compatible and have the same message. You compare versus from both books that agree, but ignore all the others that contradict and disagree.

Muslims are told by God (SWT) that the Quran is the complete, preserved and final message, and it is a blessing from Him and we should be thankful:

"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." (5:3)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/15:9
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:82
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/41:42
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:85
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:19

Muslims trust in the Quran and consider it to be the only remaining, complete, unaltered, true word of God (SWT). Muslims cannot trust or rely on other books because they could have been altered. Muslims believe in the books revealed by the prophets, but not the current versions that are in contradiction with the Quran.

That said, it seems you agree with the teaching of the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the Quran. Which implies that you believe that Mohammad (pbuh) was the last messenger of God (SWT) after Jesus (pbuh). And you identify yourself as being a Muslim.

For this reason, are you prepared to declare that you are a Muslim by saying the following:
"There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"? --- End of quote.


Response: --- While I have answered your question at the end, --- I was concentrating on the first paragraph, where you said this:
Quote: You are trying to prove that the Quran and the Bible, in their present form, are compatible and have the same message. You compare verses from both books that agree, but ignore all the others that contradict and disagree. End of quote.

So I asked, what verses do I ignore that ‘contradict and disagree.’?

Then I asked, ‘What are the new laws in the Quran that are not in the former Scriptures?'


Placid



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 1:42pm
"Islam has nothing to do with terrorism."  Rational is this simply a question of semantics or do you really believe Muslims haven't had any role in killing innocent people? If so, we need to ask which TV channel you've been watching also. And to suggest that whenever Muslims are involved, they are paid agents "to demonise Islam" is preposterous. 


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

"Islam has nothing to do with terrorism."  Rational is this simply a question of semantics or do you really believe Muslims haven't had any role in killing innocent people? If so, we need to ask which TV channel you've been watching also. And to suggest that whenever Muslims are involved, they are paid agents "to demonise Islam" is preposterous. 

Assalamo Alaik abuayisha,

Don't put words into my mouth, I never said "whenever Muslims are involved, they are paid agents "to demonise Islam".

A Muslim would not kill innocent people. That's all I'll say.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 5:41pm

Rational, it is truly problematic when our community will not face the sad truth of what has been taking place, and will likely continue, until those of our coreligionist who believe in an extreme ideology, which in their estimation makes killing of the innocent "other" a religious praiseworthy duty, are acknowledged and dealt with. These Muslims should not be allowed to hide behind your well intentioned platitudes.



Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 3:29am
Originally posted by abuayisha

Rational, it is truly problematic when our community will not face the sad truth of what has been taking place, and will likely continue, until those of our coreligionist who believe in an extreme ideology, which in their estimation makes killing of the innocent "other" a religious praiseworthy duty, are acknowledged and dealt with. These Muslims should not be allowed to hide behind your well intentioned platitudes.

Assalmo Alaik abuayisha,

Beautifully put. I'm interested to understand your views a bit better.

What is the "sad truth" and what is the source of the problem?

What do you mean "Muslims should not be allowed to hide behind your well intentioned platitudes"?




Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:26am
Well, Rational, simply put, we have a small and growing number of Muslims, who for ideological and political reasons, have absolutely no problem with murder. Indeed that is sad. The source is ignorance of their religion. I think our Islamic community must face this problem and not pretend it doesn't exist. Saudi Arabia has an excellent program to reeducate and rehabilitate terrorist and extremist sympathizers.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 10:18am
Originally posted by abuayisha

Well, Rational, simply put, we have a small and growing number of Muslims, who for ideological and political reasons, have absolutely no problem with murder. Indeed that is sad. The source is ignorance of their religion. I think our Islamic community must face this problem and not pretend it doesn't exist. Saudi Arabia has an excellent program to reeducate and rehabilitate terrorist and extremist sympathizers.

You don't know anything about me and you're throwing random accusations. What's the reason for being hostile?


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 2:22pm
What is there to know about you Rational? This is a discussion/dialogue board, and I'm only responding to what you posted. Hostile? Not at all, but this is a serious issue and should not be taken lightly. Perhaps I'm missing something here - please explain.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

What is there to know about you Rational? This is a discussion/dialogue board, and I'm only responding to what you posted. Hostile? Not at all, but this is a serious issue and should not be taken lightly. Perhaps I'm missing something here - please explain.

Well abuayisha, I felt that you're suggesting that I'm one of those "extremist sympathizers" that need to be sent to saudi to get reeducated and rehabilitated.

I know this is a serious issue. Here's what Placid said:
Originally posted by Placid

While this is meant to be a statement of faith for Muslims, --- when used as a creed by the terrorists, it ‘defames’ Muhammad, because it identifies him as the leader of the terrorists, under God.

It angers me when people relate terrorism to the Messenger (pbuh). If that's the charge, I stand guilty and I am proud of it.

I don't blame Placid for saying this.



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 8:23pm
Yeah, I understand what Placid said, and in my estimation he makes a really important and valid point concerning the misuse of statements for terrorist purposes. The default for Muslims is kindness with both Muslims and non-Muslims. Statements from the Quran must be understood in context. Forcefulness against unbelievers should be understood to mean during times of war, and certainly Muslims are not perpetually in a state of war with non-Muslims. Allah says, 'As for such (of the unbelievers) as do not fight against you on account of (your) faith, and neither drive you out forth from your homelands, Allah does not forbid you to be kind to them and to behave towards them with equity, for verily Allah loves those who act equitably.' (60: 7-9)

I am only disagreeing with your response (below), and giving an admonition concerning extremism, and acknowledgement thereof (denial is problematic).

Originally posted by Rational


Are you speaking of those masked terrorists that are funded by governments and keep mysteriously appearing on TV? They are being promoted to demonise Islam, the true religion that stands in the way of thier evil goals. Those terrorist??? Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. This lie was invented by the very people that want to destroy the truth and they don't care how many lives are involved.





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