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THE FIRST LIE EVER TOLD

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24253
Printed Date: 28 August 2014 at 6:27pm


Topic: THE FIRST LIE EVER TOLD
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: THE FIRST LIE EVER TOLD
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 9:44am
Genesis 2:17 Good News Translation (GNT) 17 except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[a> You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.”

VS

Genesis 3:4-5 New King James Version (NKJV) 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”



Therefore, according to the
Bible, the first lie told to
humanity was told by God,
and the first truth told to humanity was told by Satan.
For me, I cannot swallow it.



Replies:
Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 15 November 2012 at 7:28am
God is referring to the spiritual death of the knowledge of good and evil.  They indeed died and became mortal.  And were expelled from the garden of Eden, the death of their relationship with God.  The final, second death, is in Hell.  


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 9:23am
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

God is referring to the spiritual death of the knowledge of good and evil. They indeed died and became mortal. And were expelled from the garden of Eden, the death of their relationship with God. The final, second death, is in Hell.


Funny.


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 7:42pm
I bet this is one of the notorious lesson teaching rhetorical statements made in the Bible, much like the notorious lesson teaching rhetorical statements made in the Quran.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 7:15am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Genesis 3:4-5 New King James Version (NKJV) 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Therefore, according to the Bible, the first lie told to humanity was told by God,
and the first truth told to humanity was told by Satan. For me, I cannot swallow it.

Response: --- Quite an interesting deduction.
God had created different orders of angels to surround His throne.
He created the Cherubim with the ability to make choices, kind of like we have.
They had a leader who was called the Lucifer, or the ‘Light bringer’ or ‘son of the morning.’
God did not create sin, or a sinful nature, but this one who had attained the position of the Lucifer, began to show pride and began to exalt himself instead of God. --- He had to be removed, and a worthy leader would take his place.
The reason he was removed is stated in Isaiah 14:
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

--- And some further explanation is given in Ezekiel 28:
12 “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

--- So God did not create sin, but it developed in this former ‘being’ that was created perfect, but became proud of himself, --- and disobedient to God.

Adam and Eve were created perfect in a perfect environment, and they too had freedom of choice, like we have --- and they also had the test of obedience. Their ‘Life support system’ was the Holy Spirit of God, --- Remember, “God breathed into Adam the Breath of life, and man became a ‘living soul.’

--- God had provided perfect food for a perfect body in a perfect environment, --- They could have lived forever in that heavenly state. --- The problem was that if they ate something unsuitable to the body, it would show up in their disobedience to God, --- and disobedience to God is sin.
As soon as sin entered their being, they were no longer Holy, so the Holy Spirit of God had to be withdrawn as their Life support system, --- and the change had to be made to a body like the animals that had a circulatory flesh and blood 'life support' system.

So Satan, who had first sinned as the leader of the Cherubim Angels had access to approach Eve in the Garden and tempt her in an area that was their downfall.
Satan was the liar. --- He said they would not die, --- but they died Spiritually, and had to be cast out of the Garden and live among the animals rather than having dominion over them.

Satan said they would be wise, “To know good and evil.” --- That was a partial truth but with evil intent. --- In the Garden, they had only known ‘good’ so there was nothing to compare it to. --- So, in their disobedience, they were made “Wise, to know good and evil.” --- But to know evil was to be evil, so they were no longer Holy vessels.

God did not abandon them, --- but had to put them in a new environment in which they would live, and reproduce, and die, --- As the Scripture says, “Sin came into the world, and death by sin, in that all have sinned.”
--- And in this world we have the same choices, do we not? --- To be obedient to God and follow Him, --- or to be led astray by the temptations of the world.

In our present world there are so many temptations, but it says in 1 John 2:
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.


Placid



Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 10:16am
Lovely mythology, and, like all mythology, quite unverifiable.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 9:38am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Genesis 3:4-5 New King James Version (NKJV) 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Therefore, according to the Bible, the first lie told to humanity was told by God,
and the first truth told to humanity was told by Satan. For me, I cannot swallow it.

Response: --- Quite an interesting deduction.
God had created different orders of angels to surround His throne.
He created the Cherubim with the ability to make choices, kind of like we have.
They had a leader who was called the Lucifer, or the ‘Light bringer’ or ‘son of the morning.’
God did not create sin, or a sinful nature, but this one who had attained the position of the Lucifer, began to show pride and began to exalt himself instead of God. --- He had to be removed, and a worthy leader would take his place.
The reason he was removed is stated in Isaiah 14:
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

--- And some further explanation is given in Ezekiel 28:
12 “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

--- So God did not create sin, but it developed in this former ‘being’ that was created perfect, but became proud of himself, --- and disobedient to God.

Adam and Eve were created perfect in a perfect environment, and they too had freedom of choice, like we have --- and they also had the test of obedience. Their ‘Life support system’ was the Holy Spirit of God, --- Remember, “God breathed into Adam the Breath of life, and man became a ‘living soul.’

--- God had provided perfect food for a perfect body in a perfect environment, --- They could have lived forever in that heavenly state. --- The problem was that if they ate something unsuitable to the body, it would show up in their disobedience to God, --- and disobedience to God is sin.
As soon as sin entered their being, they were no longer Holy, so the Holy Spirit of God had to be withdrawn as their Life support system, --- and the change had to be made to a body like the animals that had a circulatory flesh and blood 'life support' system.

So Satan, who had first sinned as the leader of the Cherubim Angels had access to approach Eve in the Garden and tempt her in an area that was their downfall.
Satan was the liar. --- He said they would not die, --- but they died Spiritually, and had to be cast out of the Garden and live among the animals rather than having dominion over them.

Satan said they would be wise, “To know good and evil.” --- That was a partial truth but with evil intent. --- In the Garden, they had only known ‘good’ so there was nothing to compare it to. --- So, in their disobedience, they were made “Wise, to know good and evil.” --- But to know evil was to be evil, so they were no longer Holy vessels.

God did not abandon them, --- but had to put them in a new environment in which they would live, and reproduce, and die, --- As the Scripture says, “Sin came into the world, and death by sin, in that all have sinned.”
--- And in this world we have the same choices, do we not? --- To be obedient to God and follow Him, --- or to be led astray by the temptations of the world.

In our present world there are so many temptations, but it says in 1 John 2:
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.


Placid



I did not understand what you are trying to say. Can you repeat in a simple way as concisely as possible.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 7:40am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: I did not understand what you are trying to say. Can you repeat in a simple way as concisely as possible.

Response: --- I am sorry if I gave you Scripture verses you are not familiar with.
I will make it more concise.

The one called Satan or Iblis was removed from being the leader of the Cherubim angels, and was cast out. --- It was because of the sins of pride and self-exaltation that he was no longer worthy. --- He was created perfect but because he had the intellect to make selfish choices, --- “iniquity was found in him.”

Adam and Eve were created perfect and they also had the ability to choose. --- They had to go through the test of obedience, and God gave them a perfect environment, and perfect food, for a perfect body, --- with instructions to be obedient.
--- Satan deceived them as it says in Genesis 3, and Surah 7:19-27, and Surah 2:35-36.

God did not abandon them when He put them out of His Holy Presence in the Garden, --- but He had to put them in a new environment in which they would live, and reproduce, and die.
--- As the Scripture says, “Sin came into the world, and death by sin, in that all have sinned.”

As a result of the sin-stain on all humanity, we need to be tested and seek God's guidance in making a choice to follow God’s plan of salvation.

--- And in this world we all have to make personal choices, do we not? --- To be obedient to God and follow Him, --- or to be led astray by the temptations of the world.

Satan is the deceiver, --- and our defense is in prayer and obedience to God.
This is why through accepting Jesus as the Savior and Messiah, we can be ‘born again Spiritually,’ or ‘filled with the Holy Spirit,’ which restores our relationship with God as ‘adopted’ children.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right (power or privilege) to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--- And this is the Christian teaching of ‘the way of salvation.

--- We are ‘in the world,’ but we do not have to be ‘of the world.’




Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 7:27pm
My take on this...

From the moment of their disobedience they were dead in the perfect nature in which God had created them.  
From that day began the death of the flesh, which had they remained obedient, would have remained perfect in every way.
From that day forward death became imminent... death which otherwise would not have come to them.


Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 2:01pm
Funny.

Is that all you've got, Mahdi?


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

[B]Funny.[/B]

Is that all you've got, Mahdi?

Yes


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

God is referring to the spiritual death of the knowledge of good and evil.  They indeed died and became mortal.  And were expelled from the garden of Eden, the death of their relationship with God.  The final, second death, is in Hell.  



that's called playing with words.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"



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