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The invitation...

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Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251
Printed Date: 30 October 2014 at 7:49am


Topic: The invitation...
Posted By: Nausheen
Subject: The invitation...
Date Posted: 08 November 2012 at 6:16pm
Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah,

It is said in the Quran the following:
16:125

Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

We are instructed to invite others to the way of Our Lord 'with wisdom' and 'with good'

We are told to do this 'in a way that is best'

Is it the best way to tell the non muslims 'you infedel! Im here to educate you, so better listen to me - as that is best for you' ?

just wondering

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.



Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 1:57am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah,

It is said in the Quran the following:
16:125

Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

We are instructed to invite others to the way of Our Lord 'with wisdom' and 'with good'

We are told to do this 'in a way that is best'

Is it the best way to tell the non muslims 'you infedel! Im here to educate you, so better listen to me - as that is best for you' ?

just wondering
 
Wa Alaikkum As'alaam Wa Rahmatulliah Wa Barakatuhu
 
You are right, however if you haven't noticed it already most of the non-Muslims on this forum are here to dicredit Islam and the Prophet (pbuh).
 
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala also says in the Holy Qur'an
 
Sahih International

Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided 
 
You and I on our own cannot do anything without the guidance of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.
 

And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book [from Him], 22:8
 
I think the above verse is more relevant to the people here (non-Muslims).
 
Salaam


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 11 November 2012 at 5:29am
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided 
 
You and I on our own cannot do anything without the guidance of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.
 

And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book [from Him], 22:8
 
I think the above verse is more relevant to the people here (non-Muslims).
 
Salaam
 
Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,
 
Then what's the point educating them?
 
And what's the point in referring to them with derogatory terminology?
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 November 2012 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Nausheen

 
Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,
 
Then what's the point educating them?
 
And what's the point in referring to them with derogatory terminology?
 
 
 
Wa Alaikkum As'alaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Tell me where I have used derogatory terms?
 
If you haven't noticed already the majority of the non-muslims particularly the Christians are not here to educate themselves but to mock and discredit Islam and the Prophet (pbuh).


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 12 November 2012 at 5:57am
Is it the best way? Of course not. Muslims whose goal is peace on Earth and a peaceful co-existence of different religion never use the words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir.

I can't think of a single Christian active on Islamicity who has ever called a Muslim a disbeliever or pagan or heathen. In the Christian past, the word heathen was often used to describe non-Christians. But Christianity has evolved. Christians believe in progress. When German news programs report about the Hajj, they refer to Muslim pilgrims as believers. Of course there are differences between Christian believers and Muslim believers. But this doesn't mean that they are not believers. Jews are believers too. And so are Hindus. Their beliefs are quite different from ours. But they are still beliefs. The beliefs of Sunnis and Shiites do also differ. Still both groups are groups of believers.

Christians on Islamicity do not mock Islam or the Prophet. I can't think of a single example. Besides, if someone tried, the moderators would intervene.

Educated Christians respect educated Muslims, which means that there is criticism and disagreement about certain claims and certain interpretations of the Quran and the Hadith. In Western culture, challenging someone's view is a sign of respect. It makes no sense to challenge a silly child and try to engage him or her in a intellectual debate. Christians who invest time and visit Islamic websites want to treat Muslims as mature adults, not children.

During debates both Christians and Muslims learn a lot. Christians also learn a lot when Muslims explain Islam. I am a Christian who greatly values education.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 12 November 2012 at 8:03am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Is it the best way? Of course not. Muslims whose goal is peace on Earth and a peaceful co-existence of different religion never use the words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir.

I can't think of a single Christian active on Islamicity who has ever called a Muslim a disbeliever or pagan or heathen. In the Christian past, the word heathen was often used to describe non-Christians. But Christianity has evolved. Christians believe in progress. When German news programs report about the Hajj, they refer to Muslim pilgrims as believers. Of course there are differences between Christian believers and Muslim believers. But this doesn't mean that they are not believers. Jews are believers too. And so are Hindus. Their beliefs are quite different from ours. But they are still beliefs. The beliefs of Sunnis and Shiites do also differ. Still both groups are groups of believers.

Christians on Islamicity do not mock Islam or the Prophet. I can't think of a single example. Besides, if someone tried, the moderators would intervene.

Educated Christians respect educated Muslims, which means that there is criticism and disagreement about certain claims and certain interpretations of the Quran and the Hadith. In Western culture, challenging someone's view is a sign of respect. It makes no sense to challenge a silly child and try to engage him or her in a intellectual debate. Christians who invest time and visit Islamic websites want to treat Muslims as mature adults, not children.

During debates both Christians and Muslims learn a lot. Christians also learn a lot when Muslims explain Islam. I am a Christian who greatly values education.

 
Political correctness is a Western way.
 
The words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir can be found in the Holy Qur'an and refers to anybody who does not believe in Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala as the One True God who created the heavens and the earth.
 
Progressiveness can be a form of innovaion which is forbidden in Islam. We muslims must keep to the principles and guidelines that we are given in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).
 
To be it doesn't matter what any non-muslim says, they are all basically clueless. The proof is that the most intelligent people on earth are Christians and they believe in nonsense called the Trinity. This alone proves that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala puts a veil over the eyes of the unbeliever and He guides whom He wills.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 November 2012 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Is it the best way? Of course not. Muslims whose goal is peace on Earth and a peaceful co-existence of different religion never use the words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir.

I can't think of a single Christian active on Islamicity who has ever called a Muslim a disbeliever or pagan or heathen. In the Christian past, the word heathen was often used to describe non-Christians. But Christianity has evolved. Christians believe in progress. When German news programs report about the Hajj, they refer to Muslim pilgrims as believers. Of course there are differences between Christian believers and Muslim believers. But this doesn't mean that they are not believers. Jews are believers too. And so are Hindus. Their beliefs are quite different from ours. But they are still beliefs. The beliefs of Sunnis and Shiites do also differ. Still both groups are groups of believers.

Christians on Islamicity do not mock Islam or the Prophet. I can't think of a single example. Besides, if someone tried, the moderators would intervene.

Educated Christians respect educated Muslims, which means that there is criticism and disagreement about certain claims and certain interpretations of the Quran and the Hadith. In Western culture, challenging someone's view is a sign of respect. It makes no sense to challenge a silly child and try to engage him or her in a intellectual debate. Christians who invest time and visit Islamic websites want to treat Muslims as mature adults, not children.

During debates both Christians and Muslims learn a lot. Christians also learn a lot when Muslims explain Islam. I am a Christian who greatly values education.

 
Political correctness is a Western way.
 
The words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir can be found in the Holy Qur'an and refers to anybody who does not believe in Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala as the One True God who created the heavens and the earth.
 
Progressiveness can be a form of innovaion which is forbidden in Islam. We muslims must keep to the principles and guidelines that we are given in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).


Greetings Abu Loren,

It would be good for you to remember that the earlier scriptures referred to infidels and unbelievers, and they were not referring precisely and specifically to all Jews, or Christians.  You really must be careful to discern what is an unbeliever.  This is where progress and intellect matter.  God does expect one to discern Truth from falsehood.
You are correct, those words apply only to those who do not believe in the one God of Abraham.
And still, all persons are entitled to their own belief... there should be 'no compulsion in religion'... God gives free will.

When progressiveness is forbidden, you must ask yourself, who is it in order to keep you a slave to?  Who are you really serving?

God does not forbid seeking.  On the contrary, God encourages it.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 13 November 2012 at 8:22am
I wonder if Muslims on Islamicity have the courage to challenge your views, Abu Loren.

If words like disbeliever are found in the Quran, does this mean you have to use them when meeting non-Muslims? If words like slave are found in the Quran, does this mean that you have to implement slavery in Muslim countries? If words like Jihad are found in the Quran, does this mean you should conquer non-Muslim countries (as was done between 632 and 1683 CE)?

Progressiveness and innovation is not forbidden in Islam. There are numerous verses in the Quran that encourage Muslims to use their brain and seek new knowledge. If progress was forbidden, people in the United Arab Emirates would ride camels and not drive cars and not use web browsers, and they would drink camel urine (as prescribed by the Hadith) and not get insulin shots. It doesn't matter what non-Muslims say, because they are all basically clueless? Yeah, well, I wonder how the clueless people found oil in the United Arab Emirates and built cars, and also replaced camel urine with insulin. I wonder who's clueless here.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 November 2012 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

I wonder if Muslims on Islamicity have the courage to challenge your views, Abu Loren.

If words like disbeliever are found in the Quran, does this mean you have to use them when meeting non-Muslims? If words like slave are found in the Quran, does this mean that you have to implement slavery in Muslim countries? If words like Jihad are found in the Quran, does this mean you should conquer non-Muslim countries (as was done between 632 and 1683 CE)?

Progressiveness and innovation is not forbidden in Islam. There are numerous verses in the Quran that encourage Muslims to use their brain and seek new knowledge. If progress was forbidden, people in the United Arab Emirates would ride camels and not drive cars and not use web browsers, and they would drink camel urine (as prescribed by the Hadith) and not get insulin shots. It doesn't matter what non-Muslims say, because they are all basically clueless? Yeah, well, I wonder how the clueless people found oil in the United Arab Emirates and built cars, and also replaced camel urine with insulin. I wonder who's clueless here.

 
You see it's people like you who are clueless about Islam and yet have an 'opinion'. The progress I'm talking about is not what you have described but what the Prophet (pbuh) warned all Muslims about. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go and read the Hadiths, it's all in there.
 
Btw the Prophet (pbuh) also prophecied that the believers would dwindle in the religion and they would follow the ways of the kufr, Jews and Christians. This is exactly what is happening now, everybody wants to follow the ways of the decadent West. They want sex outside of marriage, they want to drink alcohol, they want to go to night clubs and fornicate, they want to watch movies that are full of filth like sex, they want listen to music  that has foul language etc etc etc. If you call this progress, then I don't want any part of it.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 November 2012 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


 The progress I'm talking about is not what you have described but what the Prophet (pbuh) warned all Muslims about. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go and read the Hadiths, it's all in there.
 
Btw the Prophet (pbuh) also prophecied that the believers would dwindle in the religion ... This is exactly what is happening now, everybody wants to follow the ways of the decadent West. They want sex outside of marriage, they want to drink alcohol, they want to go to night clubs and fornicate, they want to watch movies that are full of filth like sex, they want listen to music  that has foul language etc etc etc. If you call this progress, then I don't want any part of it.


Greetings Abu Loren,

Are you going to say that sex outside of marriage only happens, and has only happened, in western countries?  That fornication (adultery) is not a part of the east?  (From what I understand it is simply made legal in the east through 'temporary marriage'.) 
That sexual perversion did not, and does not, exist also in the east? 
That no one in the east have been drinkers of fermented spirits? 
That all these things originate only in the west?  Perhaps they are only less hidden by the west.

You must overcome this view that these things are a product of the west only.  They are a product of the temptation to sin (of the fallen nature of man) and exist in all cultures. 

You can't generalize about the 'west' any more than you want people to make generalizations about the 'east'. 

Not all of the west is happy with the state of morals and values, and they do not reflect the behavior of all.... any more than the state of morals and values is perfect in the 'east'.

If a man in the east must marry a virgin and a female is found not to be a virgin... she did not get that way by herself... if an unwed female is not a virgin then somewhere there is also a man who acted impurely. 

Pure and impure exist in all society and its time to acknowledge that fact and stop pointing fingers.  There is a saying... 'when you point a finger at someone else there are three fingers pointing back at you'.
Do you know that pornography is most highly accessed in Muslim countries?
http://www.franklincountyvapatriots.com/2012/02/04/pedophilia-and-pornography-a-way-of-life-in-some-muslim-countries/

In terms of progress we are admonished to discern...
"hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."

Progress does bring with it greater temptations but I don't think we can attribute those who follow evil ways merely to progress, those people have always been with us.  They are the lost souls who we must pray for God's Holy Spirit to come upon to enlighten.

salaam,
CH


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 November 2012 at 3:48am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Nausheen

 
Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,
 
Then what's the point educating them?
 
And what's the point in referring to them with derogatory terminology?
 
 
 
Wa Alaikkum As'alaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
 
Tell me where I have used derogatory terms?
 
If you haven't noticed already the majority of the non-muslims particularly the Christians are not here to educate themselves but to mock and discredit Islam and the Prophet (pbuh).
I did not say YOU used derogatory terms here. Was referring to my opening post - why shld we call the non-muslims as infidels? And why shld we address them as such if we know that we cannot educate them about islam?
 
This is my concern.
 
When we invite someone to dinner or a wedding etc, we use honorary titles, because we know its not only indecent to invite a person badly, but also that the person will be offended and reject our proposal. Then how is it so that when we want to talk about our own religion (the word of ALLAH) we address the non-muslims in such unattractive manner that they are bound to run away from us.
 
Is this an intelligent approach to engage someone in discussion or argument?
 
I think we have a duty towards our own souls and towards all muslims as a community when we talk about Islam - we cannot make it seem unattractive through our demeanors or we are doing disfavor to our own bretheren at large and to mankind in general.
 
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 November 2012 at 4:04am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 
The words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir can be found in the Holy Qur'an and refers to anybody who does not believe in Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala as the One True God who created the heavens and the earth.
 
Does the holy quran teach us to address the non-muslims using these terminologies.
If for example I want to make a reference about a college mate who is hindu, should I call her kafir?
'so-n-so kafir said such-n-such' Is that okay?
 
BY definition there are people who are kafirs, mushriks, munafiqs etc. But the point here is should we be using these terms to address them on their faces or in third person in a discussion?
On Islamicity we are the hosts and the non-muslims are guests.
If we address them with such honorifics we are simply being bad hosts.
 
Originally posted by Friendship

Progressiveness can be a form of innovaion which is forbidden in Islam. We muslims must keep to the principles and guidelines that we are given in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).
 
I fail to understand how a little mutual respect can be regarded as pregressive innovation in Islam. How did the prophet sallallahu alaihe wassalam address the jews and the christians? How did he address the Quraish? the pagan arabs?
Abu Lahab, Abu Jahal ... how did he address them?
Did he call all of them so-n-so kafir, mushrik, munafiq etc?
 
Note the verses in which Abu Lahb is mentioned by name the word kafir is not mentioned.
 
Quran maintains a decorum. Likewise we need to maintain a decorum.
 
Originally posted by Friendship

To be it doesn't matter what any non-muslim says, they are all basically clueless. The proof is that the most intelligent people on earth are Christians and they believe in nonsense called the Trinity. This alone proves that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala puts a veil over the eyes of the unbeliever and He guides whom He wills.
 
We are not talking about the trinity in this thread.


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 November 2012 at 4:17am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 
 
Btw the Prophet (pbuh) also prophecied that the believers would dwindle in the religion and they would follow the ways of the kufr, Jews and Christians. This is exactly what is happening now, everybody wants to follow the ways of the decadent West. They want sex outside of marriage, they want to drink alcohol, they want to go to night clubs and fornicate, they want to watch movies that are full of filth like sex, they want listen to music  that has foul language etc etc etc. If you call this progress, then I don't want any part of it.
Why do you say everybody? That is a very blanket statement.
Do you mean nobody in the west wants to lead a halal life? If that is so, then how come in the same west Islam is the fastest growing religion?
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 November 2012 at 5:03am
Originally posted by Nausheen

 
I did not say YOU used derogatory terms here. Was referring to my opening post - why shld we call the non-muslims as infidels? And why shld we address them as such if we know that we cannot educate them about islam?
 
This is my concern.
 
When we invite someone to dinner or a wedding etc, we use honorary titles, because we know its not only indecent to invite a person badly, but also that the person will be offended and reject our proposal. Then how is it so that when we want to talk about our own religion (the word of ALLAH) we address the non-muslims in such unattractive manner that they are bound to run away from us.
 
Is this an intelligent approach to engage someone in discussion or argument?
 
I think we have a duty towards our own souls and towards all muslims as a community when we talk about Islam - we cannot make it seem unattractive through our demeanors or we are doing disfavor to our own bretheren at large and to mankind in general.
 
 
 
 
You are right on every point, however I am very direct and I do not like to mince with words nor beat around the bush. So sometimes in the heat of the moment I do forget myself and get carried away. Having said all the I will defend myself by saying that what I've said so far in this forum is the truth and I always back up my claims by using the Holy Qur'an and the Hadith of the Prophet (Salallahu Alaihi Wasalam).
 
I'm sorry if this has been upsetting for you and I will endeavour to be polite Insha'Allah.
 
Are you a Sufi by any chance?


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 14 November 2012 at 6:05am
Yes, the Hadiths, it's all in there. This is why Muslim men and women seek to get a good general education, and not just a good religious education.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
"The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 74
"Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 107
"One who treads a path in search of knowledge has his path to Paradise made easy by God." - Riyadh us-Saleheen, 245

Trying to depict Christians and Western non-Christians in the worst possible way is no better than trying to depict Muslims in the worst possible way, as if all Muslim men beat their wives, burn churches while people are praying inside, or fly fuel-laden airplanes into skyscrapers.

I don't depict Muslims in that way. Most Muslims are decent people most of the time and most Christians are decent people most of the time. But there are some differing beliefs between Muslims and Christians we should be aware of. Most Muslims assume the differences are mainly about Jesus being a prophet or the son of God. I think this assumption is wrong. To me, the main difference between Muhammad and Jesus is what the two said about how peace between large groups of people can be achieved. This is what Muslims and Christians should debate about. This is what truly matters in a globalized world of the 21st century. Good Christians are asked to love all their fellow human beings. That is the nature of our faith. We know that we are not perfect and sometimes we fail. But our failures drive us to become better human beings. We reject the sins, but not the sinners. Most people have the potential to become good and decent human beings. We Christians try hard to love all Muslims, even the Muslims who despise our faith and who despise everything about Western culture. It's easy to love a friend. It's difficult to love somebody who is hostile. But it's possible when we really try hard. We Christians don't focus on following all prescribed rituals (though they are also important). We focus on how we can learn to love and appreciate all human beings no matter how different they are. When other people give up their hatred, we forgive them. It's what the followers of Martin Luther King did, when Rosa Park's refusal to give up her bus seat made a lot of white supremacists very angry. Over the years millions gave up hatred of people with a different skin color. It's still there, but compare it to 1955. White people elect President Obama, because they think he is the best candidate. Imagine this in 1955. People can learn to give up hatred. People can learn to give up discrimination. Live and let live.

I'm trying hard not to be clueless about Islam. Are you trying hard not to be clueless about Christianity?

My wife and I have been married for 25 years. I never cheated on her. I don't go to night clubs. I don't like music with foul language in it. I don't use profanity in Internet forums. I'm trying to be polite and respectful. I drink alcohol in moderation, which is not a health risk like smoking. I don't smoke. I don't take drugs. I respect other cultures. I like to learn other languages. English is my second language and I love it. In 1986 I also learned some Arabic to find my way around Egypt.

Yes, there are drunk people out there. Yes, there are men who want to have sex with more than one woman. Yes, there are men who beat their wives. Yes, there is greed. This world is not perfect and it will never be. But we can make it a little better every day. With the exception of Yugoslavia, Europe has enjoyed peace for almost 70 years. Germans and French people hated each other. Today they are best friends. That's progress worth talking about. The same can happen with the Christian and the Muslim world in general. They can become best friends. It's one of my goals in life. We are all children of Ibrahim.

Friends don't call each other infidel or pagan or heathen. This is what Nausheen's question is all about. I think it's great she asked this question. If we can't get rid of derogatory terms, it's very difficult to appreciate diversity and celebrate differences. And if we all were the same, the world would be very boring.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 November 2012 at 6:35am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Yes, the Hadiths, it's all in there. This is why Muslim men and women seek to get a good general education, and not just a good religious education.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
"The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 74
"Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 107
"One who treads a path in search of knowledge has his path to Paradise made easy by God." - Riyadh us-Saleheen, 245

Trying to depict Christians and Western non-Christians in the worst possible way is no better than trying to depict Muslims in the worst possible way, as if all Muslim men beat their wives, burn churches while people are praying inside, or fly fuel-laden airplanes into skyscrapers.

I don't depict Muslims in that way. Most Muslims are decent people most of the time and most Christians are decent people most of the time. But there are some differing beliefs between Muslims and Christians we should be aware of. Most Muslims assume the differences are mainly about Jesus being a prophet or the son of God. I think this assumption is wrong. To me, the main difference between Muhammad and Jesus is what the two said about how peace between large groups of people can be achieved. This is what Muslims and Christians should debate about. This is what truly matters in a globalized world of the 21st century. Good Christians are asked to love all their fellow human beings. That is the nature of our faith. We know that we are not perfect and sometimes we fail. But our failures drive us to become better human beings. We reject the sins, but not the sinners. Most people have the potential to become good and decent human beings. We Christians try hard to love all Muslims, even the Muslims who despise our faith and who despise everything about Western culture. It's easy to love a friend. It's difficult to love somebody who is hostile. But it's possible when we really try hard. We Christians don't focus on following all prescribed rituals (though they are also important). We focus on how we can learn to love and appreciate all human beings no matter how different they are. When other people give up their hatred, we forgive them. It's what the followers of Martin Luther King did, when Rosa Park's refusal to give up her bus seat made a lot of white supremacists very angry. Over the years millions gave up hatred of people with a different skin color. It's still there, but compare it to 1955. White people elect President Obama, because they think he is the best candidate. Imagine this in 1955. People can learn to give up hatred. People can learn to give up discrimination. Live and let live.

I'm trying hard not to be clueless about Islam. Are you trying hard not to be clueless about Christianity?

My wife and I have been married for 25 years. I never cheated on her. I don't go to night clubs. I don't like music with foul language in it. I don't use profanity in Internet forums. I'm trying to be polite and respectful. I drink alcohol in moderation, which is not a health risk like smoking. I don't smoke. I don't take drugs. I respect other cultures. I like to learn other languages. English is my second language and I love it. In 1986 I also learned some Arabic to find my way around Egypt.

Yes, there are drunk people out there. Yes, there are men who want to have sex with more than one woman. Yes, there are men who beat their wives. Yes, there is greed. This world is not perfect and it will never be. But we can make it a little better every day. With the exception of Yugoslavia, Europe has enjoyed peace for almost 70 years. Germans and French people hated each other. Today they are best friends. That's progress worth talking about. The same can happen with the Christian and the Muslim world in general. They can become best friends. It's one of my goals in life. We are all children of Ibrahim.

Friends don't call each other infidel or pagan or heathen. This is what Nausheen's question is all about. I think it's great she asked this question. If we can't get rid of derogatory terms, it's very difficult to appreciate diversity and celebrate differences. And if we all were the same, the world would be very boring.

 
You know what? I've changed my mind I'm not going to apologise any more. Those terms are in the Holy Qur'an and I am happy to use it against people who do not believe in Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. People who are hurt by it then tough, grow up and be a man.
 
It looks like there's only 3 people defending Islam on this forum from the crusading Christians. Myself, Beebok and Mahdi the Seeker.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 November 2012 at 12:41pm
Then obviously, Abu Loren, even though you claim belonging to a religion which is meant to be about peace, you do not wish for peace at all, and neither do you have guidance in the way of finding it.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 November 2012 at 11:19pm
Sahih International
 
Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah , except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination. 3:28
Narrated Abu Sa`id:

The Prophet said, "You will follow the wrong ways, of your predecessors so completely and literally that if they should go into the hole of a mastigure, you too will go there." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?" He replied, "Whom else?" (Meaning, of course, the Jews and the Christians.)

Bukhari
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3457
In-book reference : Book 60, Hadith 124
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 663


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 1:12am
Originally posted by Abu Loren


You are right on every point, however I am very direct and I do not like to mince with words nor beat around the bush. So sometimes in the heat of the moment I do forget myself and get carried away. Having said all the I will defend myself by saying that what I've said so far in this forum is the truth and I always back up my claims by using the Holy Qur'an and the Hadith of the Prophet (Salallahu Alaihi Wasalam).
 
I'm sorry if this has been upsetting for you and I will endeavour to be polite Insha'Allah.
 
Are you a Sufi by any chance?


Oh no, I did not expect you so humble!!

Nevertheless would love to read pages from polite muslims speaking the truth of Quran and Sunnah. This includes myself.

Why do you think I was a sufi - by no chance, Im not even close to their excellence.


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Idil
Date Posted: 18 November 2012 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah,

Is it the best way to tell the non muslims 'you infedel! Im here to educate you, so better listen to me - as that is best for you' ?

just wondering

Wacalykum Salaam sis,

Of course that is not the way to go about as one would not give you then a listening ear. For this reason, it becomes vital that people who are given dawah are actually educated on this issue. However, what we need to realise is that this harshness is also applied to general Muslims by those who think are better practicing Muslims. It is a weakness that we as Muslims need to address and also we need to bare in mind that when ALLAH sent Musa to the Pharaoh he was instructed to kindly inform and invite him.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Then obviously, Abu Loren, even though you claim belonging to a religion which is meant to be about peace, you do not wish for peace at all, and neither do you have guidance in the way of finding it.


I agree. But since there are only three Muslims on Islamicity, as mentioned by Abu Loren, who do not wish for peace, we should remain hopeful that peace between Muslims and Christians is possible. But we need to be vigilant. Even a small minority can cause a lot of damage and suffering in the world, all in the name of Islam.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 12:47am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Originally posted by Caringheart

Then obviously, Abu Loren, even though you claim belonging to a religion which is meant to be about peace, you do not wish for peace at all, and neither do you have guidance in the way of finding it.


I agree. But since there are only three Muslims on Islamicity, as mentioned by Abu Loren, who do not wish for peace, we should remain hopeful that peace between Muslims and Christians is possible. But we need to be vigilant. Even a small minority can cause a lot of damage and suffering in the world, all in the name of Islam.

 
Pathetic, is that your Nazi logic?


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 3:02am
It's a well-known fact that both militant and non-militant Islamists have no interest in peace. Their vision of a "pseudopeace" is a planet Earth ruled entirely by a 7th-century-flavored Islam, which includes chopping off people's hands. The Islam of Islamists also means eradicating all non-Muslim beliefs, except those of Christians and Jews willing to obey their Muslim rulers and to pay the fine for not being Muslim.

All Islamists should know, however, that our world community opposed to Islamism is very capable of defending our values, which includes equal rights for men and women, freedom of religion and no compulsion in religion, and all other fundamental human rights that we are committed to upholding.

Abu Loren, I truly hope you change your mind and work with all of us to build a peaceful world. Islamism is a form of theocratic fascism. I'm very much opposed to Nazism and all other types of fascism, which rely on some master race with more rights than those they are trying to dominate.

So is peace your goal, or not, Abu Loren? Yes or no? Avoiding an answer means no.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 3:16am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

It's a well-known fact that both militant and non-militant Islamists have no interest in peace. Their vision of a "pseudopeace" is a planet Earth ruled entirely by a 7th-century-flavored Islam, which includes chopping off people's hands. The Islam of Islamists also means eradicating all non-Muslim beliefs, except those of Christians and Jews willing to obey their Muslim rulers and to pay the fine for not being Muslim.

All Islamists should know, however, that our world community opposed to Islamism is very capable of defending our values, which includes equal rights for men and women, freedom of religion and no compulsion in religion, and all other fundamental human rights that we are committed to upholding.

Abu Loren, I truly hope you change your mind and work with all of us to build a peaceful world. Islamism is a form of theocratic fascism. I'm very much opposed to Nazism and all other types of fascism, which rely on some master race with more rights and those they are trying to dominate.

So is peace your goal, or not, Abu Loren? Yes or no?

 
Posts like this show your true Nazi colours. As far as I'm aware nobody on this forum has expresses any militant views. You ignorant people always jump to conlusions. All of the Muslim members here have done so far is to show you all of your errors in Christianity by the Truth that shines from the Holy Qur'an which is the only inerrant Words of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.
 
Stealthily you and your cronies here try to intimidate us with your softly softly approach.
 
Islam is a religion of peace unlike Christiantiy where all of the problems today are started and conitinued by Christians. Your crusaders will never win like when you went to Palestine, Islam and Muslims are protected by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala Himself.
 
Allahu Akbar!


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 3:29am
You are right, Abu Loren, nobody on this forum has expressed any militant views. But it's also important to distance oneself from non-militant Islamism. Yes, most forms of Islam show that it is a religion of peace. But this does not mean that the goal of all Muslims is peace. You seem to have a hard time to simply say: 'My goal is peace', perhaps with an explanation how to achieve peace. So far you also have not shown any tolerance for beliefs that differ from yours. You even seem angry with fellow Muslims whose beliefs differ from yours. You continue to depict Christians in the worst possible way and continue to use words like crusaders or infidels. Most Christians don't want to win. Most of us are not missionaries. We want Muslims to keep their faith and we do respect this faith when it respects ours. And we want peace, while all of us can choose our beliefs. That is what no compulsion in religion is all about. If you call this a soft approach, fine. I call it respecting the dignity of every human being and a commitment to fundamental human rights.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 4:08am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

You are right, Abu Loren, nobody on this forum has expressed any militant views. But it's also important to distance oneself from non-militant Islamism. Yes, most forms of Islam show that it is a religion of peace. But this does not mean that the goal of all Muslims is peace. You seem to have a hard time to simply say: 'My goal is peace', perhaps with an explanation how to achieve peace. So far you also have not shown any tolerance for beliefs that differ from yours. You even seem angry with fellow Muslims whose beliefs differ from yours. You continue to depict Christians in the worst possible way and continue to use words like crusaders or infidels. Most Christians don't want to win. Most of us are not missionaries. We want Muslims to keep their faith and we do respect this faith when it respects ours. And we want peace, while all of us can choose our beliefs. That is what no compulsion in religion is all about. If you call this a soft approach, fine. I call it respecting the dignity of every human being and a commitment to fundamental human rights.


 
Islam will not tolerate any deviancy nor innovation because that is how the Christians got themselves ino the mess that they are in. The Holy Qur'an is perfection and we understand it by knowing what the Prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam ) taught us. So far people from all faiths tried to discredit it without any real success. Muslims whose beliefs differ from the Sunnah are not real Muslims but pretenders, I am only defending Islam from people like you who attack it.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 5:59am
I didn't attack Islam. Can you give me one example when I did?

I only have a problem with Muslims who don't want peace, who violate the 'no compulsion in religion' principle, who reject equal rights for men and women, and who violate other human rights.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 6:27am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

I didn't attack Islam. Can you give me one example when I did?

I only have a problem with Muslims who don't want peace, who violate the 'no compulsion in religion' principle, who reject equal rights for men and women, and who violate other human rights.


 
By saying that Muslim women do not need to wear the hijab.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 7:13am
You consider this to be an attack on Islam? In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. So Allah gives women a choice. Muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab can still be devout followers of Islam.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

You consider this to be an attack on Islam? In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. So Allah gives women a choice. Muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab can still be devout followers of Islam.



Had been following this discussion for sometime. Hope you will not mind few comments - though I know your response was for Abu Loren.

Christians create quite a bit of confusion when they 'think' they know a ruling correctly, while the reality is pretty far from it.

Quran is a masterpeice of rehtoric - called balaghah in arabic. There are so many, many instances where the litetral meaning is far from the rehtorical meaning of a verse.
For instance where it says, the life of this world is but play and amusement ... and your return is to your Lord.

One may conclude from this verse - we are hear for entertainment and enjoyment - however Quran is saying something much more. It is warning one about the return to the Lord - and saying volumes about one's state after the return if one took their stay in this life lightly.

In the same way, no compulsion in religion verse is not as simple as - 'we can do whatever we want'.

This does not mean the laws are there, and one is free to choose or reject them - with no future consequences. That would be a very dangerous interpretation of the no compulsion in religion phrase.

Hijab is a religious obligation for women. All sunni scholars recognize it, and those who do not are considered deviant. Since this is a religious matter, a statement like 'women do not need to cover' coming from a non-muslim appears to be an attack. Its like they are telling me what to do and not do about my religious obligations.

Matt, you have started a thread about cultural misunderstandings, I did not write anything there as nothing occurred relevant - but for the record treat this as a cultural misunderstanding if you will - telling muslims they don't need to cover, pray, abstain from alcohol etc because there is no compulsion in religion can create huge misunderstandings about how you want to treat muslims.




-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 1:32am
Thanks for this explanation, Nausheen. Outside of my own country, I'm not telling Muslims what to do. I have read numerous books from well-educated Muslims, for example Irshad Manji, and it is their understanding that Islam gives Muslims far more choices than they realize, especially Muslim women. If a woman wants to wear a hijab, this is a choice she made. Fine. Half of the women in Turkey choose not to wear it. Labeling them as deviant is unfair, because there is no such thing as a single valid interpretation of the Quran. Why are there Sunni and Shia? Why are there Protestants and Catholics. Why are there reformed Jews and ultra-orthodox Jews? When it comes to the matter of God and religion there is no such thing as 'one truth'.

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country. The same applies to all Western countries. German laws also supersede Christian laws or laws of any other religion. That is the nature of secular countries. We can disagree with French law not allowing face veils, but we still have to follow the laws.

If someone in Germany forces a Muslim woman to wear a hijab, this person has broken German law, even if it's the husband. It's that simple. In Germany wives don't have to obey their husbands, and vice versa. Equal rights for men and women is part of our constitution. And so is freedom of expression. And freedom of religion. A Christian can become a Muslim. A Muslim can become an atheist. A Christian can become a Buddhist. A Muslim can become a Christian. That's how our society works. When Muslims take issue with that, serious problems arise. Therefore our debates here are so important.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



Thanks for this explanation, Nausheen. Outside of my own country, I'm not telling Muslims what to do.



Thank you Matt. As you explained in your post if Islamic laws are interfering with German laws, you are correct to tell muslims in your country what not to do. That much is understandable.
For muslims in general telling them what not to do would mean telling them what islamic law is ... this is where clashes begin.

What most non-muslims have difficulty understanding is that islam is not just a religion, ie a set of rules on how to worship God. Within itself, it also contains instructions (pertaining to the soul)on spirituality and instructions (pertaining to society) on constitutional laws. It is a complete system with God in its center - unlike the secular states which do have a government and a law but God has been deleted - left for individuals to interact with (Him) on a very personal level.
Since this is a working system of most countries today, we as muslims have to deal with the situation in best possible manner.
At the same time those wishing to have peaceful coexistence with muslims need to understand that worship alone is not complete Islam, a muslim needs to implement on himself/herself their religion in totality.


Originally posted by Matt Browne


I have read numerous books from well-educated Muslims, for example Irshad Manji, and it is their understanding that Islam gives Muslims far more choices than they realize, especially Muslim women. If a woman wants to wear a hijab, this is a choice she made. Fine. Half of the women in Turkey choose not to wear it. Labeling them as deviant is unfair, because there is no such thing as a single valid interpretation of the Quran.


Hijab is a personal choice just like 5 daily prayers are personal choice.
If ALL of muslims, not just half, but ALL of muslims were to choose not to observe their daily prayers they are still wrong. Their leaving the prayer will not make their choice correct because of their number.
Just like that if all of muslim women choose not to wear a hijab they are wrong.

The question of being deviant does not arise simply by someone making a choice not to follow the religion. They become deviant when, in addition to not following they also start believing and professing that a particular action is not compulsory as muslim. There is a big difference between the two. If you dont understand, I can go in further detail, so please let me know.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Why are there Sunni and Shia? Why are there Protestants and Catholics. Why are there reformed Jews and ultra-orthodox Jews? When it comes to the matter of God and religion there is no such thing as 'one truth'.


We have a narration from prophet muhammad (peace be upon him) that former nations were divided into 71 and 72 sects, while his nation will split into 73 of which only one will be on the correct guidance. We are instructed to strive for truth and that correct guidance. God is one and His truth is one.

The problem is not in being a shia or a sunni. Rather it is about fighting who is right and who is wrong. In reality one does not need to worry about the other person being right or wrong, because God will decide that for everyone in the end.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country.


I agree with you. If muslims cannot freely practice their faith in a nation, they should leave.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

That is the nature of secular countries. We can disagree with French law not allowing face veils, but we still have to follow the laws.

Absolutely. When they have made a law which goes against Islamic faith no matter how much one screams their disagreement, they are bound to obey.

At the same time the French have attacked the islamic faith by this ban. Their desire for peace with muslims is seriously under question.

In india muslims wear a hijab/veil, Sikhs wear a turban and a bracelet, the Hindu pandits wear a janayu (a string of thread across the torso), married hindu women wear sindoor(red color) on their forehead and hair and a typical string in their neck called mangal sutra. All of these are religious symbols, and each are free to observe as adherents of that faith. To have problem with any of it is saying one has problem with the faith.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

A Christian can become a Muslim. A Muslim can become an atheist. A Christian can become a Buddhist. A Muslim can become a Christian. That's how our society works. When Muslims take issue with that, serious problems arise. Therefore our debates here are so important.



Muslims make issues in the same way as non-mulsims make issues about hijab/veil etc. Indeed our debates are important.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 6:37am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country.
 
 
Originally posted by Nausheen


I agree with you. If muslims cannot freely practice their faith in a nation, they should leave.

Often times it is merely the interpretation or application of law where citizens disagree.  I don't think one political party that differs on the spirit or letter of a given law would suggest the other party choose to live in a different country. Why not stay and exercises your rights to redress in the court and through the political process as an option to leaving?  Seems a bit draconian to suggest get out if you disagree.  Disagreements are what make democracies thrive in my estimation.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 November 2012 at 6:42am
I've said it before, Matt Browne is a Nazi in disguise. Anyway, why would a German have the English name like Matt Browne?


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:07am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

I've said it before, Matt Browne is a Nazi in disguise. Anyway, why would a German have the English name like Matt Browne?
 
Abu Loren, you are one entertaining fellow! Matt Browne has had so much patience with you that I'm amazed. I recall you once told him to grow up. Maybe you should consider doing that yourself.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

You consider this to be an attack on Islam? In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. So Allah gives women a choice. Muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab can still be devout followers of Islam.



Matt,
no, because Hijab is a sign of modesty and it is required of women as far as requirement goes.
I know as a matter of fact that here in the West because of fear, many including my own family women and girls do not wear Hijab rather they wear long sleeve shirts, loose pants or skirts, not showing their body form or exposing their chest, arms or legs trying to fulfill as much possible.
Same time there are those who live in Islamic countries and choose not to cover as the Quran prescribe clearly not following it.
People who want to use excuses will find many. For example like the Catholics who despite very clear commands from God right in their sacred book to not to make images or statues of any living thing make images, statues in likeness of those who once lived on earth. They make, carve and adore and worship them, all against their teachings and on top consider such acts as fulfilling God's command.
So you will find people like that all across, people will be people.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 7:20am
Originally posted by Nausheen

For muslims in general telling them what not to do would mean telling them what islamic law is ... this is where clashes begin.


For Muslims in general, I'm merely sharing my personal views. Everyone is entitled to challenge my views and since 1945 in Germany we consider this to be a fundamental right. My parents raised me in this way. At school our teachers encouraged us to be curious and pose uncomfortable questions. Some of my views that you might disagree with are actually shared by some of the 1.5 billion Muslims. This is reality: Muslims challenge the views of other Muslims and it's a good thing. It should be a normal thing.

Originally posted by Nausheen

What most non-muslims have difficulty understanding is that islam is not just a religion, ie a set of rules on how to worship God. Within itself, it also contains instructions (pertaining to the soul)on spirituality and instructions (pertaining to society) on constitutional laws. It is a complete system with God in its center - unlike the secular states which do have a government and a law but God has been deleted - left for individuals to interact with (Him) on a very personal level. Since this is a working system of most countries today, we as muslims have to deal with the situation in best possible manner. At the same time those wishing to have peaceful coexistence with muslims need to understand that worship alone is not complete Islam, a muslim needs to implement on himself/herself their religion in totality.


Yes, but "in totality" can actually mean to have faith in God instead of blind acceptance of dogmas. In her book "Allah, Liberty and Love" Irshad Manji shows both Muslims and non-Muslims how to reconcile faith and freedom in a world seething with repressive dogmas. Her key teaching is “moral courage,” the willingness to speak up when everyone else wants to shut you up. She views her book as the ultimate guide to becoming a gutsy global citizen.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Hijab is a personal choice just like 5 daily prayers are personal choice. If ALL of muslims, not just half, but ALL of muslims were to choose not to observe their daily prayers they are still wrong. Their leaving the prayer will not make their choice correct because of their number. Just like that if all of muslim women choose not to wear a hijab they are wrong.


Are you really sure that they are wrong? Is this really the way Allah judges people? Checking strands of hair and counting prayers? What about all the Egyptian men praying five times a day and who also touch the breasts of women on the bus? Sexual harassment has become an epidemic in Egypt. Isn't dealing with this more important to Allah than the number of prayers? I'm just asking uncomfortable questions. Some Christians also think they are good Christians if they don't miss church, but during the week they buy stock based on insider knowledge. I think God loves us when we are good to other people. This is what should matter most, right?



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 7:29am
Originally posted by abuayisha

Originally posted by Matt Browne

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country.

Originally posted by Nausheen


I agree with you. If muslims cannot freely practice their faith in a nation, they should leave.

Often times it is merely the interpretation or application of law where citizens disagree.  I don't think one political party that differs on the spirit or letter of a given law would suggest the other party choose to live in a different country. Why not stay and exercises your rights to redress in the court and through the political process as an option to leaving?  Seems a bit draconian to suggest get out if you disagree.  Disagreements are what make democracies thrive in my estimation.


You seem to have misunderstood. Everyone can disagree with a law as long as he or she still follows it. Muslims are welcome to stay in our countries when they honor this principle. I don't agree with all of our laws. That's why we have political parties and a parliament with the power to change laws.

I was talking about the fundamental secular principle that German laws supersede Islamic laws. And Christian laws too. Muslims who reject secularism are a threat to the entire Western world. These Muslims are better off living in theocratic countries. That was my point.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 7:33am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

I've said it before, Matt Browne is a Nazi in disguise. Anyway, why would a German have the English name like Matt Browne?


Calling a German a Nazi is very offending. It's like calling an African-American a nigger.

This is an English forum. People use aliases when they are online. English aliases make a lot of sense.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 7:37am
Originally posted by W.S.

Abu Loren, you are one entertaining fellow! Matt Browne has had so much patience with you that I'm amazed. I recall you once told him to grow up. Maybe you should consider doing that yourself.


Well, I'm 50 years old and I consider patience and politeness to be virtues.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Matt Browne



Originally posted by abuayisha


Originally posted by Matt Browne

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country.
Originally posted by Nausheen

I agree with you. If muslims cannot freely practice their faith in a nation, they should leave.
Often times it is merely the interpretation or application of law where citizens disagree.  I don't think one political party that differs on the spirit or letter of a given law would suggest the other party choose to live in a different country. Why not stay and exercises your rights to redress in the court and through the political process as an option to leaving?  Seems a bit draconian to suggest get out if you disagree.  Disagreements are what make democracies thrive in my estimation.
You seem to have misunderstood. Everyone can disagree with a law as long as he or she still follows it. Muslims are welcome to stay in our countries when they honor this principle. I don't agree with all of our laws. That's why we have political parties and a parliament with the power to change laws.I was talking about the fundamental secular principle that German laws supersede Islamic laws. And Christian laws too. Muslims who reject secularism are a threat to the entire Western world. These Muslims are better off living in theocratic countries. That was my point.



Matt,
your countries, ha.
There are many Christians here in the USA (my country) that feel secularism is a threat to their faith and way of life. Where should they move to sir ??
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 5:36am
Good point, Hasan. Muslims born in the US and Christians born in the US can't be denied American citizenship. I was talking about all religious folks rejecting secularism (Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc) who have or have held a different citizenship before they came to the US. If they don't support secularism and the American constitution, they should go back to their home country or move to a country which is closest to their non-secular worldview.

I have a big issue with ultra-conservative Christians who feel that feel secularism is a threat to their faith and way of life. I challenge their views like I do challenge views of ultra-conservative Muslims. I think secularism is one of the greatest achievements of humanity since the Stone Age. It is worth defending. Today people take it for granted and we have to remind them what happened to Giordano Bruno.




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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt



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