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In Defense Of Radical Islam

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Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24249
Printed Date: 23 November 2014 at 12:49am


Topic: In Defense Of Radical Islam
Posted By: Non Muslim
Subject: In Defense Of Radical Islam
Date Posted: 08 November 2012 at 4:07pm
This may be one of the most provocative threads ever.

I am an agnostic who is not fond of the Abrahamic faiths although I do see that they have some positive attributes. Islam fell into a very dim view in the US after 911. I really don't have an opinion whether this view is justified. Like many Americans I was very angry about 911 but even then I had a certain admiration for the courage of the bombers even though I thought there cause was wrong.  I think that tactically 911 hurt Muslims.

I suspect that another attack may happen.  In retrospect the problem I have with the 911 attacks is that most of the victims were innocent and enemies of nobody.

What I would like to say is that Americans, Asains, Eurpopeans, Africans and Middle Easterners all have a common enemy and that we are more alike than different. I mention a common enemy. To whom do you think I am referring.

I would ask any radical Muslims to not bring violence to the West or any other part of this planet but if you do pick a target that we all hate.



Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 08 November 2012 at 6:58pm
You're not starting well, Non Muslim.  This post has "troll" written all over it.  I predict your number of posts will not make it to double digits.
 
And on a related note, I may have just changed my opinion about the moderators' policy of screening new member posts before they appear.  I am beginning to see the wisdom of it. Wink


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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 November 2012 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

You're not starting well, Non Muslim.  This post has "troll" written all over it.  I predict your number of posts will not make it to double digits.
 
And on a related note, I may have just changed my opinion about the moderators' policy of screening new member posts before they appear.  I am beginning to see the wisdom of it. Wink


Hi Ron,

I don't follow why you say this.  Why you call him a troll.  I think he is making the point that the common enemy of us all is the forces of evil...  or the one who wants us all to kill one another... the one who wants to destroy creation.  That the only way we defeat the enemy is by not fighting one another.

What am I missing?

Peace,
CH


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 2:03am
Originally posted by Non Muslim

This may be one of the most provocative threads ever.

I am an agnostic who is not fond of the Abrahamic faiths although I do see that they have some positive attributes. Islam fell into a very dim view in the US after 911. I really don't have an opinion whether this view is justified. Like many Americans I was very angry about 911 but even then I had a certain admiration for the courage of the bombers even though I thought there cause was wrong.  I think that tactically 911 hurt Muslims.

I suspect that another attack may happen.  In retrospect the problem I have with the 911 attacks is that most of the victims were innocent and enemies of nobody.

What I would like to say is that Americans, Asains, Eurpopeans, Africans and Middle Easterners all have a common enemy and that we are more alike than different. I mention a common enemy. To whom do you think I am referring.

I would ask any radical Muslims to not bring violence to the West or any other part of this planet but if you do pick a target that we all hate.
 
On the contrary my agnostic friend. After 9/11 there was/is a surge in interest in Islam. Many thousands of people are converting to Islam from all over the planet. They are finding the truth which was not available to them in the past, in that respect the internet has been a blessing.
 
A believers common enemy is people like you and athiests. They sow doubt in the believers mind and they are promised to receive a painful punishment.
 
Take the Shahada as soon possible and save your own soul.
 


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 4:21am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Hi Ron,

I don't follow why you say this.  Why you call him a troll.  I think he is making the point that the common enemy of us all is the forces of evil...  or the one who wants us all to kill one another... the one who wants to destroy creation.  That the only way we defeat the enemy is by not fighting one another.

What am I missing?

Peace,
CH
Anyone who joins a forum promising "one of the most provocative threads ever" in his/her first post is (literally) asking for trouble IMHO.  Even after more than a thousand posts I am constantly aware that I am a guest here, as are we all.  Guests do not walk in the door with a declaration that they are here to "provoke".
 
I think I know where Non Muslim is going with this topic, but I won't say any more because I may be wrong.  I hope I'm wrong.  Non Muslim, if I have misunderstood your intentions, then I apologize.


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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 5:45pm
You have to love Abu Loren's rhetoric.  You are my enemy because you don't believe in the tenets of my faith.  That is the definition of evil in my book and the main ingredient in quite a few ongoing few civil wars.  Hopefully evil is simply Non Muslim's boogie man. 


Posted By: Non Muslim
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Non Muslim

This may be one of the most provocative threads ever.

I am an agnostic who is not fond of the Abrahamic faiths although I do see that they have some positive attributes. Islam fell into a very dim view in the US after 911. I really don't have an opinion whether this view is justified. Like many Americans I was very angry about 911 but even then I had a certain admiration for the courage of the bombers even though I thought there cause was wrong.  I think that tactically 911 hurt Muslims.

I suspect that another attack may happen.  In retrospect the problem I have with the 911 attacks is that most of the victims were innocent and enemies of nobody.

What I would like to say is that Americans, Asains, Eurpopeans, Africans and Middle Easterners all have a common enemy and that we are more alike than different. I mention a common enemy. To whom do you think I am referring.

I would ask any radical Muslims to not bring violence to the West or any other part of this planet but if you do pick a target that we all hate.
 
On the contrary my agnostic friend. After 9/11 there was/is a surge in interest in Islam. Many thousands of people are converting to Islam from all over the planet. They are finding the truth which was not available to them in the past, in that respect the internet has been a blessing.
 
A believers common enemy is people like you and athiests. They sow doubt in the believers mind and they are promised to receive a painful punishment.
 
Take the Shahada as soon possible and save your own soul.
 


I think that before 911 Americans had a more positive view of Islam. One of the most beloved men in America Muhammad Ali is a Muslim and people really love Karreem Abdul Jabbar.

I have issues with all religions yet I recognize they value in them too. If there is a God then he is hopefully a just and merciful god who judges us on our deed and not how much we massage his ego or believe the teachings of books that are often errant and absurd.

I look at the Middle East situation and if I were the president I would say to Israel, "We have a lot of land in the US and you are welcome to a chunk of it we'd love to have you here. Most of the Arabs don't want you and many would like to kill all of you so take your valuables and leave the rest to the PLO so they will be happy. You Jews would be much better off here in the US because nobody would be firing missile at you and you would not be going off killing Palestinians for no good reason. We want you Jews and they don't"

I am not fan of Judaism but I really admire the Jews and the contributions they made to humanity.  The Persians and the Egyptians likewise had great civilizations.

Muslims have called American the great Satan. I think they have a point but it goes deeper than America. IMO there is an element that goes back to the early 19th century that has controlled world events and oppressed people. That element is greed and power and that greed and power is controlled by a small amount of people with a huge amount of wealth. That power suffered a blow on Tuesday.

The invasion of Iraq was not about ideology or US national security. It was about some very evil and greedy people profiteering from war. This would recession was not an accident.

I have read the Koran, Haddith, Bible and the Book of Mormon and I reject them all. Christians, and Muslims have been making trouble for non Christians and non Muslims for centuries when the tenants of both faiths when spoken from the churches and the pulpits has been just the opposite. I am not sure which religion has committed more carnage in the name of God. If there is a heaven I don't think that any one religion has a lock on heaven.

I can thoroughly discredit Christianity and I have read Muslim sites that did a splendid job of it. I have also seen Islam debunked as well.  Here's the problem with that. It doesn't do anyone any good. To my way of thinking it doesn't matter what religion is write what matters is if a person is right with God.

Regardless of what we believe about God we all have a common enemy here on earth. I get it why those men did 911. I think it was a huge mistake but I admire their courage I just think they hit the wrong targets to further their cause.

Abu Loren, it it is allowed here and you would like to debate the Koran and Haddith and prove me wrong please do so. You could use me as an example of why Islam is the only true religion. This could serve as a way to show Muslims who are on the fence that you are right and I am lost. You also have me at a disadvantage as I have no god on my side and you have the one true god.

If this sort of discussion is allowed let's have it but let's do it in another thread. Personally I really don't care what you or anyone else believes so long as you are honest and don't try to force your beliefs on others. I have no strong spiritual beliefs so I have nothing to force onto other people. I have no burden of proof. Believers have the burden of proof.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

You have to love Abu Loren's rhetoric.  You are my enemy because you don't believe in the tenets of my faith.  That is the definition of evil in my book and the main ingredient in quite a few ongoing few civil wars.  Hopefully evil is simply Non Muslim's boogie man. 
 
 
Thank you for loving my rhetoric.
 
A believers enemy is the non-believer. Agonstics are the worst kind because at least the atheist is brave enough to say that he doesn't believe in a god and he is willing to face the consequences on the Day of Judgement. Agnostics, on the other hand, seek knowledge all of their lives and then die knowing nothing. If a believer in God is your definition of evil then I really feel sorry for you. Civil wars are not caused by believers in God but the opposite. Satan sow the seeds then the non believer follows through.
 
People who are too proud to bow down to the Creator will be bowing down trying to avoid the mountainous hell fire for eternity.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 9:05pm
"A believers enemy is the non-believer. "

but it depends on the definition of non-believer to know where the evil lies doesn't it?


Posted By: Non Muslim
Date Posted: 09 November 2012 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

You have to love Abu Loren's rhetoric.  You are my enemy because you don't believe in the tenets of my faith.  That is the definition of evil in my book and the main ingredient in quite a few ongoing few civil wars.  Hopefully evil is simply Non Muslim's boogie man. 


He seems to be concerned about my soul and I thank him for that.  He has something in which he strongly believes. My hope is that he came to those beliefs freely and based on reason and I am curious to to understand why he believes something that I have studied and rejected.

I cannot say that there is no God nor can I claim there is a God because extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

As to the OP, in retrospect I understand why the 911 bombers did what they did but like Bush they attacked the wrong target. The people who harm people in the Middle East and other brown people did not work at the Pentagon or the Twin Towers. There is no cabal of Jews running the world. The people responsible for the harm to this planet and its people are the one who control the wealth and wealth controls the power. They are the oppressors and oppression breeds violence. Violence is not always a bad thing but senseless violence is.

Arabs and Muslims have a saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" so just because Abu Loren and I may not agree on spiritual matters is no reason why he and I cannot be friends especially given the fact that we share a common enemy.


Posted By: Ghazzali
Date Posted: 10 November 2012 at 12:50am
Aassalamualaikum Abu Loren. I understand from which point of view you are saying that agnostics are worse than atheists, but I see it from a different perspective.

Philosophically speaking, agnostics are better than atheists because they do not deny the existence of God. Just because a muslim or a christian failed to prove that God exists does not mean God does not exist. May be there are other proofs. The agnostic continuously searches for proof. It is almost impossible to prove that God does not exist. The agnostic acknowledges it. The atheist, on the other hand, is a hypocrite because he/she does not have the proof that God does not exist, but he/she believes in it. The atheist believes in something he/she cannot prove. When you confront an atheist to prove that God does not exist, he/she shrugs off the responsibility and puts the burden of proof on the theist.

But I guess it's true Abu Loren that ironically, atheists have a better chance to convert to a religion than agnostics. The reason is that in the face of overwhelming evidence, the atheist tries even harder to defend his/her theory, thereby digging deep into a hole from which he/she cannot escape. The more he/she digs, the more the hollowness of atheism comes to light. But the agnostic does not feel the same pressure, since he/she has all the options on the table.

It's just a generalized view of the atheist and the agnostic. There are always exceptions.


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The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.


Posted By: Non Muslim
Date Posted: 10 November 2012 at 2:38am
Originally posted by Ghazzali

Aassalamualaikum Abu Loren. I understand from which point of view you are saying that agnostics are worse than atheists, but I see it from a different perspective.

Philosophically speaking, agnostics are better than atheists because they do not deny the existence of God. Just because a muslim or a christian failed to prove that God exists does not mean God does not exist. May be there are other proofs. The agnostic continuously searches for proof. It is almost impossible to prove that God does not exist. The agnostic acknowledges it. The atheist, on the other hand, is a hypocrite because he/she does not have the proof that God does not exist, but he/she believes in it. The atheist believes in something he/she cannot prove. When you confront an atheist to prove that God does not exist, he/she shrugs off the responsibility and puts the burden of proof on the theist.

But I guess it's true Abu Loren that ironically, atheists have a better chance to convert to a religion than agnostics. The reason is that in the face of overwhelming evidence, the atheist tries even harder to defend his/her theory, thereby digging deep into a hole from which he/she cannot escape. The more he/she digs, the more the hollowness of atheism comes to light. But the agnostic does not feel the same pressure, since he/she has all the options on the table.

It's just a generalized view of the atheist and the agnostic. There are always exceptions.


That's quite a generalization about  agnostics. For anyone who says that god exists or that their God is the only true god I say prove it.

I can prove that it either does not exist or does not listen.

OK God if you exist then give us humans an indisputable sign. That will be for God who believers say is loving and mercuful to end all childhood disease.

Christian think that Jesus is God. They have what they call a trinity and explain it as 3 persons in one God. Jesus is quoted in the Bible saying that he is God and in other parts of the Bible he says he is not God according to the writers of the gospels. Both cannot be true although Christians will are that both statements are true because they believe the Bible is innerrant. I can state with 100% certainty that the Bible is full of 1000's of errors and contradictions and every Muslim here would agree. But if I were to say that the Koran was full of errors they would disagree and Christians would agree. They can't both be right but they can certainly both be wrong.

There is a difference. I can go to the most hard core Christian church in America on Sunday and tell those Christians that the Koran is the only true word of God and I would be largely ignored or some would offer their prayers.  If I were to do the same thing in Saudi Arabia but instead stand outside a mosque with a Bible saying that is is the true word of God I think they'd kill me.

What does this say? Are Muslims stronger in their belief and better at defending the faith than Christians?

Are Christians more sure of their faith where they feel they don't need to defend it?

Here's is another question. Why does God need our adorations?

Here's another question. Humans have lived all over the globe for over 200,000 years. What took so long for God to send a prophet/messiah to tell human kind what he wanted of us?

First there was Moses and the old testament and the 10 commandments but that was not good enough so some time late he sent Jesus and he died for our sins even though non of us were born yet but somehow Eve's mistake with the snake was also our fault. Turns out Jesus was not the Messiah as the NT claims and along come the Muslim prophet Mohammad. Unlike Jesus, Mohammad was no blood relation to God. Infact Mohammad never actually talked to God. Jesus talked to God all the time. It was sort of a father son thing. The problem is that not one word in the Christian Bible was written by Jesus Christ. That kinda rules out the idea that Jesus was a prophet because prophets are messengers and translators for God.

The Koran was compiled long after one of Mohammed's wives killed him. Mohammed started getting messages from God via the angel Gabriel and this went on from 610 CE to 632.  The Koran was cannonized by Uthman ibn Affan in 665 and he had several variations of it.

God gave Moses the 10 commandments in his own handwriting in stone instantly and that is the only part of the Bible written by God.

Along come Joseph Smith in the mid to late 1800 and he finds some gold tablets written by God and he translates them from Egyptian into middle English even though in the 1800 people were speaking modern English. The golden tablets are nowhere to be found.

Muslims have debubked the Bible and have shown it to be silly and they have proven that Christ was not divine.

Joseph Smith who brought the world Mormonism was a known flim flam artist.

In the 1960 along comes L Ron Hubbard another con artist.

Christians and other scholars have debunked the Koran.

Christians and Muslims would agree that Mormonism and Scientology are pure bunk.

The way I see it Mormons, Muslims, Christians, and Scientologists base their faith on bunk.

It seems to be that if any of these three faiths were true God would have written one indisputable book that left not even a shadow of doubt that god was the author but he did not do that. Moses claimed God wrote the 10 commandments but I don't believe him. He was on that mountain for a very long time.




Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 10 November 2012 at 2:21pm
Ghazzali -I am impressed. You seem to have no problem understanding how agnostics see the world.

I agree there are many who fit your description of atheists. Richard Dawkins is one exception, who is invariably 'tarred with the same brush' by those not directly acquainted with his writing.

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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 10 November 2012 at 8:55pm
Assalamu alaikum.

I have seen the interview of Prof Richard Dawkins and also read his book. There is nothing abnormal in his agnostic beliefs for if science according to him failed to prove to him the existence of One Allah, no one according to the teaching of Muhammad should blame him. He will settle his score with Allah. We are a family of pharmacists and doctors. Yet our father died in our presence. Who is responsible. Were we guilty?

Friendship. 


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 10 November 2012 at 9:27pm
Actually Abu Loren, I believe only you said that my definition of evil is someone that believes in God.  I didn't.   Maybe you should try an accurate quote instead of twisting words and misquoting like a politician. 



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