Print Page | Close Window

JESUS:'...SELL EVERYTHING.....'

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24208
Printed Date: 20 September 2014 at 3:12am


Topic: JESUS:'...SELL EVERYTHING.....'
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: JESUS:'...SELL EVERYTHING.....'
Date Posted: 03 November 2012 at 10:46pm
Luke 12:Do Not Worry 22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest? 27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. 32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Luke 18:22 New International Version (NIV) 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Luke 14:33 New International Version
(NIV) 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up
everything you have cannot be
my disciples.


And if you think of not listening to Jesus, remember this;   Luke 6:46 English Standard Version (ESV) “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell
you?

Also
Matthew 7:21-27 English Standard Version (ESV) I Never Knew You 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven......



Replies:
Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 3:31am
Jesus relied on the hospitality of His better-off followers.  You had Mary, Martha and Lazarus.  You had Peter and his family letting Jesus live with them.  Furthermore, Jesus made use of an Upper Room by arrangement with the owners.  The point being?  The owners of the Upper Room would have been relatively wealthy to have such an Upper Room, which means they lived in a house with a courtyard and so was larger than the ordinary poor man's house in ancient Israel.  The thing is, these people were using their resources to help Jesus and were making use of them to promote the Kingdom of God.  In Matthew 10 Jesus says, "Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay in his house until you leave.  As you enter the home, give it your greeting.  If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.  If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feetwhen you leave that home or town."  (Matthew 10:11-14)  What is clear is that hospitality was a big part of Jesus' teaching.  that required some people at least to have sufficient financial resources.  So when we come to the Rich Young Synagogue Ruler, and Jesus commands him to give up everything he has and sell it to the poor, then come, follow Him, and he responds by going away sad, what does Jesus say?  "It is very hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."  However, while this was impossible with man, it is possible with God, for with God all things are possible.  Quite simply, the riches of that young man were an obstacle to him following Jesus.  By contrast, look at Zacchaeus when he came to faith in Jesus: "Look, Lord!  Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."  (Luke 19:8)  Zacchaeus got it.  He used his resources for the Kingdom of God.  The Rich Young Synagogue Ruler did not get it.  Therefore Jesus commanded him to give up everything.  The principle is simple.  You give up everything for Jesus.  That means either using it for His cause, or you get rid of it altogether.  Notice that Jesus did NOT tell the Rich Young Synagogue Ruler to give up his income.  It certainly does NOT mean what one man said at the door of a house I nocked on, who said we should be taking our clothes off and getting rid of our houses and walking about naked and without any food.  That is NOT what Jesus meant.  I explained that to him and he made an accusation that Christians weasel their way out of everything.  Yeah, whatever.  Disapprove    


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 22 November 2012 at 6:44am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Luke 12:22 --- Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear.
23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes.
30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them.
31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

Response: --- These are all good references you have given in this topic, and taken separately, they give a kind of negative message, as though you are not to retain anything for yourself. --- However, if you read the context you will find that Jesus was speaking to different groups of people. --- He spoke the parables to the crowds, --- then He spoke privately to the disciples.

Let’s start with the beginning of Mark 12:
1 In the meantime, when an innumerable multitude of people had gathered together, so that they trampled one another, He began to say to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
--- (The Pharisees came with the crowds to find fault with Jesus and His teaching, so he spoke to them in Parables, --- but spoke privately with the disciples.)

15 And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of covetousness, (greed and selfishness) for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”
16 Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully.
17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’
18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”’
20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’
21 “So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”
--- (This is the message, “Make God the first priority, --- not selfish desires.”)

--- (This parable was spoken to the multitude, including the Pharisees, which precedes the verses you mentioned.)

22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear.
23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes.
30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them.
31 But seek His kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

--- So if the priority is seeking God first, then all necessary things will be added to you as well. --- God provides the needs of those who trust in Him.
Someone said, “God gives the best to those who leave the choices to Him.”


Placid



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:43pm
matthew 6;24 Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
No man can work for two masters, for either he will hate one and will love the other, or he will honor one and the other he will ignore. You cannot work for God and for money


Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 4:01am
You cannot serve both God and money- the actual Aramaic word is mammon. This refers to materialism. We serve God, money serves us. If we serve money, then it has to be gotten rid of.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 4:21am
Right, No man can serve two masters.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:
21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 11:20am
Originally posted by Placid

Right, No man can serve two masters.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:
21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also


Placid,
indeed, the words are there but confusion is created over them to mislead.
Luke 18: 18 "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 6:37am
Hi Honeto,

Quote: Right, No man can serve two masters.
Jesus said in Matthew 6:
21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also
--- (Then you said) --- Placid, indeed, the words are there but confusion is created over them to mislead.
Luke 18: 18 "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

Response: --- This is explained in the next verses in the conversation in Luke 18:
18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’
21 And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.”
22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.

--- Notice, he said, “Good Teacher.” --- He was respectful, --- but did he want to compliment or glorify Jesus? --- Then Jesus directed him to God who is the source of Goodness, and the One to be praised.

He asked a good question. --- The question we all need to ask.
Jesus said, “You know the law ---.“ --- And he responded, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” --- Which reveals that he was obedient to the law, and thus a good person, --- but perhaps lacking in love of God and generosity to others.

--- (He might have been simply seeking approval from Jesus for his good lifestyle, in front of the crowd --- but neither a good reputation nor good works can substitute for what God requires, --- which is repentance, faith, and obedience to His will.
He might also have thought, “Because I have riches, I would be a benefit to Jesus, I could finance His ministry, --- I could build Churches where the Apostles could preach.”

--- But therein is the problem. --- This was the reason Jesus said, “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
So Jesus gave him the hard answer. – ‘If you want to have treasure in heaven, then sell what you have and distribute to the poor,”
--- ‘And then come and join my disciples in following Me.’   

Because his heart was with his treasure on earth, --- ’he went away sorrowful.’
--- But he may have believed in Jesus later with a different frame of mind.


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 December 2012 at 5:28pm
Placid,
in your reply there was one line that is worthy of understanding and repeating.
"-- Notice, he said, “Good Teacher.” --- He was respectful, --- but did he want to compliment or glorify Jesus? --- Then Jesus directed him to God who is the source of Goodness, and the One to be praised. "

Do you live by that or just say it, or you do not understand what it means?

Do you believe Jesus has a God, or you still insist he was God, even after saying what you said as quoted above?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 13 December 2012 at 8:58am
Hi Honeto,

Quote: Placid, in your reply there was one line that is worthy of understanding and repeating.
"-- Notice, he said, “Good Teacher.” --- He was respectful, --- but did he want to compliment or glorify Jesus? --- Then Jesus directed him to God who is the source of Goodness, and the One to be praised. "

--- Do you live by that or just say it, or you do not understand what it means?
Do you believe Jesus has a God, or you still insist he was God, even after saying what you said as quoted above?

Response: --- Yes, I believe it and live by it. --- God is God, and there is no other.
--- By now you have likely read in other posts where I have said that the Scripture does not say that Jesus was God, nor did Jesus ever say He was God, --- but, it does say that He came from God. --- Jesus was born on earth so He had a human body, --- but He was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God, who came from heaven, --- so He had a human body but Divine Soul, and was filled with the Holy Spirit, --- that is why He was Unique, (Like no other).
--- He was CALLED the Son of God, and He usually CALLED Himself the Son of man.

As I pointed out in a Post to Abu, in prophesies, referring to Jesus in the OT, God CALLED Him, “My Servant.” --- In the Gospels God CALLED him, “My Son”--- And Jesus CALLED God, “His heavenly Father,” --- identifying the new “Spiritual Family of God,” --- which true believers are ‘adopted’ into.

After Jesus ascension to heaven in Acts 1, Peter twice, in Acts 3, called Him, “God’s Servant” --- And in the Quran, He is called “God’s Servant.”    




Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:55pm
Anyone that is born, here, on planet X, in heaven or anywhere is same. All, including the ones are born or created have a creator, and that is God Almighty who himself is not created, nor born.
You seem to agree with what I said.
I wonder which Christian denomination do you belong to, or if to none?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 5:59am
Hi Honeto,


Because I have worked for years in 'Interdenominational' services with the various Churches, I really don't quite fit in a category.
My wife and I are members of an Associated Gospel Church in which we serve on committees, and wherever needed.

My studies have taken me above 'denominationalism,' --- that is why I use what is written in Scripture, from both he Bible, and the revelations from God to Muhammad, in the Quran.

Since God has verified that His word is true, --- Who are we to judge God's word?

I believe that if you sometime, do like I did years ago, and set aside all the Church doctrines and traditions, and said, "Alright Lord, I want to learn from Your Scriptures what is true." --- At some point in there I said, "Lord, I yield myself to You. --- Empty me of self and fill me with Your Holy Spirit."

And because of the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit, I answer questions and comments from His word, as He guides me.
--- I am a 'nothing,' I have no credentials, I simply believe God and His word, and His word instructs us to believe in Jesus, whom God sent to 'redeem' His lost world. --- However, there are many more believers like me.

The fascinating thing about the Quran is that the angel Gabriel "'confirms' the former Scriptures as being true. --- So are you able to judge both God, and the angel Gabriel as being wrong about the Scriptures?

If you admit that you learned that from others, or from tradition, that the former Scriptures were 'corrupt,' --- it only proves that you aren't thinking for yourself.

I am sure you have read this in Surah 5:
48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.

Don't you think that our Almighty and Everlasting God, could preserve His word?


Placid




   


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 20 December 2012 at 1:22pm
Placid said
And because of the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.

So delusional i do not know whether to laugh or cry.

placid said
revelations from God to Muhammad, in the Quran.
why are you arguing against Islam and the Quran when you know it is from God?

placid said
The fascinating thing about the Quran is that the angel Gabriel "'confirms' the former Scriptures as being true. --- So are you able to judge both God, and the angel Gabriel as being wrong about the Scriptures? If you admit that you learned that from others, or from tradition, that the former Scriptures were 'corrupt,' --- it only proves that you aren't thinking for yourself. I am sure you have read this in Surah 5: 48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety. Don't you think that our Almighty and Everlasting God, could preserve His word?
Placid, you cannot claim the Quran is false and use it to justify anything, especially christianity/ the Bible.
Also, the Bible is obviously not the word of God/inspired by God. How many contradictions,false claims, lies,absurdities,disgustingness, false prophecies will it take for you to realize that? would you drink a litre of milk with a drop of shit?



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 December 2012 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Honeto,


Because I have worked for years in 'Interdenominational' services with the various Churches, I really don't quite fit in a category.
My wife and I are members of an Associated Gospel Church in which we serve on committees, and wherever needed.

My studies have taken me above 'denominationalism,' --- that is why I use what is written in Scripture, from both he Bible, and the revelations from God to Muhammad, in the Quran.

Since God has verified that His word is true, --- Who are we to judge God's word?

I believe that if you sometime, do like I did years ago, and set aside all the Church doctrines and traditions, and said, "Alright Lord, I want to learn from Your Scriptures what is true." --- At some point in there I said, "Lord, I yield myself to You. --- Empty me of self and fill me with Your Holy Spirit."

And because of the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit, I answer questions and comments from His word, as He guides me.
--- I am a 'nothing,' I have no credentials, I simply believe God and His word, and His word instructs us to believe in Jesus, whom God sent to 'redeem' His lost world. --- However, there are many more believers like me.

The fascinating thing about the Quran is that the angel Gabriel "'confirms' the former Scriptures as being true. --- So are you able to judge both God, and the angel Gabriel as being wrong about the Scriptures?

If you admit that you learned that from others, or from tradition, that the former Scriptures were 'corrupt,' --- it only proves that you aren't thinking for yourself.

I am sure you have read this in Surah 5:
48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.

Don't you think that our Almighty and Everlasting God, could preserve His word?


Placid




   


Placid,
learning never ends, I am a firm believer in that. I remind that to myself and my children and others that all we know we learn from others.
I also believe that if we all were to receive direct revelations from God, we will have billions of various scriptures and revelations ideas and religions. And we would not have heard of God sending prophets since the beginning. There is a reason for that. Why did God chose certain men above others to be teachers, prophets and guides to mankind? If we think and reflect the answer is easy. So we could be guided in the direction God wanted us to, not where we could lead ourselves, we simply do not have that capacity thus we come to realize that it is safe to rely on instructions and guidance our Creator sent us and who can know us better than Him.
It is true that the Quran tells us that God sent books before it. In fact, it tells us that there were many books, prophets and messengers sent before to various people in various times. Man was never without devine guidance since his beginning. We are also told that that guidance was always the same, that religion was always the same. Each time people will reject or leave the ways God want them to live, the vacuum will be filled by sending a new prophet with a pure word of God, repeating the same message in its purity so all have a chance to it.
It is true that Torah and Injeel were sent by God for their times, and as their state depleted in the hands of its holders as documented in what we now know as the Bible, the vacuum was created for a pure word of God to guide those who seek His guidance.
The Quran documents just like the Bible that the words of the previous scriptures were changed, some forgotten (left out) and so on in the hands of it's care takers.
The word of God, in it's pure form was sent to mankind in the form of the Quran. It is a complete guidance for those who seek guidance from their maker.

The problems with what we know call the Bible are numerous, but a few points are sufficient to mention here in order to show it's state. 1-God, between the OT and NT there is great difference of idea who is God. The followers of OT now (the Jews) have a completely different belief of who God is vs. the followers of the NT (the Christians) have a completely new and different idea of who God is.
These two different ideas about God coming out of a single book called the Bible is the single largest proof against it's authenticity.
We cannot simply try to mix all the beliefs and think that we are doing the right thing. We may be making everyone happy, but not our maker. In Islam we do the other way, the first purpose of our life is to please our maker, and how we know he is pleased? He has told us that it is the acceptance of the truth by us that pleases Him.

We also need to understand how come there are so many different beliefs? They are branch offs of the original. Just like if you start out at the smallest branch of a tree and in order to find its root you will get to it through one trunk from where all the branches come out.

Hasan   





-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 12:42pm
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Placid, you cannot claim the Quran is false and use it to justify anything, especially christianity/ the Bible.
Also, the Bible is obviously not the word of God/inspired by God.

Response: --- I have said this before, --- I have the highest regard for Muhammad and the Quran and have not claimed it to be false.
--- When I first came on a Muslim website, some years ago, I said I was interested in learning about Islam. --- A moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.”

I had a copy of the Pickthall Translation among my books, --- which gives the history and calling of Muhammad by the vision of the angel Gabriel.
Mr Pickthall gives an intro to each Surah, and the time it was written, which was very helpful. --- I read the Quran and wrote a few notes on most Surahs. About half of it contains stories and Scriptures from the OT and the Gospels, so I believe them.

I have asked some on this forum to tell me what is written in the Quran that we need to believe, that is not in the former Scriptures which were ‘confirmed’ in Surah 3:
3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Perhaps you could tell me that.
--- You have learned to say, “The Bible is corrupted,” --- but if the angel Gabriel ‘confirmed’ it as true in 600 AD after it was approved and translated into many languagesover the years before that, --- you are disagreeing with the revelations given to Muhammad, therefore you are disagreeing with what you say is God’s word, the Quran

Muhammad’s first wife, Khadijah, and her elderly cousin were Christians and he lived not far from Mecca so no one knows how many trips Muhammad made to visit this cousin. One of the first testimonies given as to what Muslims believed, is the first part of Surah 19.   

When I came on IslamiCity I saw all the questions you asked, that no Christian had answered, so I systematically started answering from the Scriptures, which have prompted some good discussions.
--- You see, --- if you asked these from the Scriptures, which you didn’t believe in the first place, --- it seems pointless to expect you to believe them when the Scriptural answers are given. --- However, other readers may do some studying for themselves.

--- I have made comparisons from the Quran and follow the guidelines, 3, and 4:
3. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.   
4. When discussing issues dealing with Islam, please support your comments with the Quran or Sunnah.

--- Have I ever said anything negative about the Quran? --- Have I not always included Surah references from the Quran as requested?

Thank you for responding with your opinions because you have rarely responded on the posts you have started.



Placid



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 7:12am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Placid, you cannot claim the Quran is false and use it to justify anything, especially christianity/ the Bible.
Also, the Bible is obviously not the word of God/inspired by God.

Response: --- I have said this before, --- I have the highest regard for Muhammad and the Quran and have not claimed it to be false.
--- When I first came on a Muslim website, some years ago, I said I was interested in learning about Islam. --- A moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.”

I had a copy of the Pickthall Translation among my books, --- which gives the history and calling of Muhammad by the vision of the angel Gabriel.
Mr Pickthall gives an intro to each Surah, and the time it was written, which was very helpful. --- I read the Quran and wrote a few notes on most Surahs. About half of it contains stories and Scriptures from the OT and the Gospels, so I believe them.

I have asked some on this forum to tell me what is written in the Quran that we need to believe, that is not in the former Scriptures which were ‘confirmed’ in Surah 3:
3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Perhaps you could tell me that.
--- You have learned to say, “The Bible is corrupted,” --- but if the angel Gabriel ‘confirmed’ it as true in 600 AD after it was approved and translated into many languagesover the years before that, --- you are disagreeing with the revelations given to Muhammad, therefore you are disagreeing with what you say is God’s word, the Quran

Muhammad’s first wife, Khadijah, and her elderly cousin were Christians and he lived not far from Mecca so no one knows how many trips Muhammad made to visit this cousin. One of the first testimonies given as to what Muslims believed, is the first part of Surah 19.   

When I came on IslamiCity I saw all the questions you asked, that no Christian had answered, so I systematically started answering from the Scriptures, which have prompted some good discussions.
--- You see, --- if you asked these from the Scriptures, which you didn’t believe in the first place, --- it seems pointless to expect you to believe them when the Scriptural answers are given. --- However, other readers may do some studying for themselves.

--- I have made comparisons from the Quran and follow the guidelines, 3, and 4:
3. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.   
4. When discussing issues dealing with Islam, please support your comments with the Quran or Sunnah.

--- Have I ever said anything negative about the Quran? --- Have I not always included Surah references from the Quran as requested?

Thank you for responding with your opinions because you have rarely responded on the posts you have started.



Placid






when i ask questions about the Bible/christianity, i do it to point out the things which make it impossible for me to believe it. i do not think i have quoted the Bible and refuted it with the Quran i.e the Bible says a and Quran says b, therefore Bible is wrong. most of the times it is just things that are contradictory within the Bible itself, or are just plain absurd by themselves. If the Quran was endorsing the whole Bible as it is today, i would not believe in it too. now i think we can go back to the topic at hand.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 05 January 2013 at 11:38am
Hi Hasan,

Quote: It is true that Torah and Injeel were sent by God for their times, and as their state depleted in the hands of its holders as documented in what we now know as the Bible, the vacuum was created for a pure word of God to guide those who seek His guidance.

Response: --- The Torah that was given to Moses was preserved and the Ten Commandments are still for us today. --- The fact that the Jews, to whom the Torah was entrusted, failed to follow the commandments of God. They did not change the Scriptures, they just rejected it. --- But there was always a remnant that followed the true Word of God.

Quote: The Quran documents, just like the Bible that the words of the previous scriptures were changed, some forgotten (left out) and so on in the hands of it's care takers

Response: --- (You have to give more definite verses than you did before which mention the unbeliever’s rejection, but no evidence of changes in the Scriptures themselves) --- As I have said, if someone threw the Scripture behind them, that didn’t ‘change’ anything because someone else could pick it up and read it.
--- I have read some of the ‘Abrogated Quran,’ which I am sure is not authorized, but it removes some of the ‘pleasant’ verses and replaces them with militant ones like Surah 9:5. --- By them doing that, and misleading the readers, do you think that changes the ancient copy of the Quran in Arabic that is kept under glass in a Museum? --- I don’t think so.

Surah 9 was a one-time cleansing in year 9 of the Hijrah, when the idolaters, 1 --- had to convert to Islam (surrender to God), and honor Muhammad, 2 --- leave Mecca before the next year (year 10), or, 3 --- be in danger of being put to death because they were enemies of God, or renegades.
--- (In year 9, this ‘Year of Immunity,’ did not apply to Jews or Christians, did it? --- Or to any other period in history, did it? --- But just to the idolaters who formerly worshiped the 360 some idols that had occupied the Kabah, the House of Prayer, before Muhammad removed them in year 8.
--- Notice this verse, Surah 9:28 “O you who believe! The idolaters only are unclean.” --- But the ‘Abrogated Quran’ is suggesting that all non-Muslims are unclean, and that they follow a ‘militant Allah,’ --- and not a ‘God of Love.’

Quote: The word of God, in its pure form was sent to mankind in the form of the Quran. It is a complete guidance for those who seek guidance from their maker.

Response: --- From my perspective, I believe the revelations given to Muhammad in the Quran, because I don’t find any that really contradict the history of all the OT prophets, --- however, there are discrepancies in the Quran as there are in the Bible.
--- The Bible was written over some 1600 years, on three different continents, in three different languages, yet it has the one Message “That there is only One God that we are to worship.”
--- And when Jesus was asked, “What is the great commandment in the Law?” He responded in Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

--- The first one comes from Deuteronomy 6:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.”
--- And the second one comes from Leviticus 19:
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

And Jesus added that, (40) “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
What He said was that ‘the first commandment to love God’ involves our vertical relationship with God --- where we focus on our love for God and God’s love to us.
--- And in a surrendered life, God gives us His Holy Spirit, (as He inspired Muhammad in Surah 42:52), --- who guides us, in response to our devotion to Him.
Then the second commandment is our horizontal relationship to others. --- If we are (so to speak) a vessel of God’s love, then we demonstrate that love in our honest dealings with others, --- as well as sharing the Source of that love with others.
--- (That is why, if we are in right relationship with God, then we are ready to tell others what we believe.)

--- Then Jesus (in the Gospel/Injil) said: --- “These two commandments (from the OT) fulfill the Law (which was given through Moses), --- and the (writings of) the Prophets --- (from the time of Moses, until the New Covenant), --- And the New Covenant revived ‘the Love of God,’ and ‘love of others,’ which is the Message of the Gospel given in Matthew 5, beginning with 1-12, --- and continues till the end of chapter 7.

--- This continuation from the OT Message is confirmed in Surah 2:
87 Pickthall: “And verily We (God) gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit.”
87 Yusuf Ali: “We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.”
87 Arberry: “And We gave to Moses the Book, and after him sent succeeding Messengers; and We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear signs, and confirmed him with the Holy Spirit.”

(More to follow)


Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 4:55am
(To continue)

Quote: The problems with what we know call the Bible are numerous, but a few points are sufficient to mention here in order to show it's state. 1-God, between the OT and NT there is great difference of idea who is God. The followers of OT now (the Jews) have a completely different belief of who God is vs. the followers of the NT (the Christians) have a completely new and different idea of who God is.
These two different ideas about God coming out of a single book called the Bible is the single largest proof against it's authenticity.

Response: --- I don’t accept this as we are not concerned with men’s opinions, that can mislead us, --- but with the Word of God, which gives us the Way of salvation. --- As I have written above verifies, it is, “The same God, and the same Message” from Moses to Jesus, and to the Apostles and disciples, --- who continued it in their generation and beyond even till today --- (or else I wouldn’t be here to talk about it, would I?)

Quote: We cannot simply try to mix all the beliefs and think that we are doing the right thing. We may be making everyone happy, but not our maker. In Islam we do the other way, the first purpose of our life is to please our maker, and how we know he is pleased? He has told us that it is the acceptance of the truth by us that pleases Him.

Response: --- I believe that when we blend the truth from Abraham, through Moses, through Jesus, --- and to Muhammad, we understand the true Message.
Notice in Surah 3:3-4, where it confirms the former Scriptures, see what it says in the first and last of verse 7 in Surah 3:
7 Pickthall: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book.
None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

7 Yusuf Ali: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book:
But no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

7 Khalifa: He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture.
None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

The 'Book' refers to the revelation of the former Scriptures to Muhammad, as he was ‘living out’ the Message of the Quran. --- This Surah was revealed about the third year of the Hijrah, so it would be another 7 years before the last of the Surahs, would be revealed, which were included in the Quran. --- Though Imam Ali had a complete set, they were rejected, and it was about 20 years after Muhammad’s death before it was compiled in Book form, was it not?

Quote: We also need to understand how come there are so many different beliefs

Response: --- I don’t agree that we need to know anything about other religions which have split off from the worship of our One True God.
--- Since you said above: “The word of God, in its pure form was sent to mankind in the form of the Quran. It is a complete guidance for those who seek guidance from their maker.”

--- Then you are acknowledging that the Quran was ‘the new truth’ --- but since the revelations in the Quran only were inspired, --- we must deal with the Quran only. --- (When you say “It is a complete guidance,” --- then the answers are in the Quran, not in other writings, are they not? --- It is not what is ‘written’ in the Quran, but the ‘interpretation’ from man’s wisdom that can again lead the readers astray. --- Is that not right?)

I have read that Muhammad said to his companions, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that is not in the Quran.”

Hasan, I want you to understand that I am not suggesting that you become a Christian, --- but rather that you become open to what the Scriptures say, and not what others say about them. --- ('A surrendered one' to God and His word).

It seems that I use the Quran to defend God’s word, and most times the responses to my posts are negative, --- So I want to ask, --- “What parts of your Quran don’t you believe?”

--- BTW, --- I am expecting that sometime the other Christian brothers on this forum will challenge me on my favorable comments about Muhammad and the Quran, however, I will welcome that --- (perhaps as a new topic), because some of them seem to have a ‘prejudice,’ like most of the Muslim posters have.

A Scripture verse says, “Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth.”

(Sorry, for long posts, but this is the way many responses are given. --- However, these are given for your further study and consideration, --- and perhaps further discussion.)


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 2:36pm
Placid,
I base my statement on what I find out there as evidence. I do not believe that God has limits like the OT suggests. I do not believe that God regrets as in OT. I do not believe that God commands unjustified killings on innocent children, trees, animals as in OT.
I do not believe God takes a ransom for our sins in the form of blood as the NT teaches. I do not believe that the Messiah was to be called "Almighty God" as the Christian Bible's OT shows while the Jewish Bible does not. A prime example of Bible manipulation.
So you can write pages, but can they refute and prove anything wrong what I said above? No and it will not take pages, just a few lines.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 7:00am
Hi Hasan,

Quote: I base my statement on what I find out there as evidence. I do not believe that God has limits like the OT suggests. I do not believe that God regrets as in OT. I do not believe that God commands unjustified killings on innocent children, trees, animals as in OT.

Response: --- You had said at the top of the page, “It is true that Torah and Injeel were sent by God for their times.”
I responded by saying: “The Torah that was given to Moses was preserved and the Ten Commandments are still for us today.” --- The message of the OT remains the same through the NT and the Quran, --- “There is no God but God.” ---- And we are to obey Him. --- Muhammad’s whole Mission was to destroy idolatry and restore worship of One God. --- Which he accomplished, did he not?
The OT was preserved and it was ‘intact’ when Jesus came. --- The New Covenant preserved the OT in the fulfillment of prophecy.

--- And the Quran says this in Surah 4:
163 We (God) have sent thee (Muhammad) inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
--- If this verse is true in the Quran, then we are to read and understand what they wrote, and realize, God inspired the writers, so it is God’s word, is it not?

If you disbelieve it, --- you are disbelieving God, --- you are disbelieving the confirmation by the angel Gabriel in the Quran, and you are disbelieving what Muhammad was given to preach to the people, are you not?
--- (What is the difference between a disbeliever and an unbeliever?)
   
Quote: I do not believe God takes a ransom for our sins in the form of blood as the NT teaches.

Response: --- The sacrifice of pure animals with their body drained of blood is taught all the way from Abraham to the priests in the Temple, when Jesus came.
Animal sacrifices were the constant part of Jewish worship because God said, ”Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.”
--- I could explain that sometime, but you wouldn't likely believe it, so since God commanded it, we accept it, whether we understand it or not, (Or else we make ourselves a judge of God).

Quote: I do not believe that the Messiah was to be called "Almighty God" as the Christian Bible's OT shows while the Jewish Bible does not. A prime example of Bible manipulation.

Response: --- Your criticism of God’s word and the OT is showing!!!
This is why we need to study it because the Personage mentioned was not Jesus, but Immanuel, (remember you said ‘names never change’).
Also, there is no mention of Almighty God, is there?
--- Your “Prime example of Bible manipulation” is interesting, because the Immanuel (God with us), who would come to earth to indwell the body of Jesus, was then called --- “The Prince of Peace.” --- You have to read it again.

Quote: So you can write pages, but can they refute and prove anything wrong what I said above? No and it will not take pages, just a few lines.

Response: --- I have said many times that the trinity doctrine was a ‘faulty’ doctrine. --- You still want to discuss with me from the same mindset that all Christians are Trinitarians. --- Trinity is rarely mentioned in our Churches and is considered a Church Doctrine, but it came out of the Old Roman Catholic Church, however many Churches still keep it as traditional.
Salvation is through Faith in God and obedience to Him, not on Church history or doctrines.
--- I am concerned that you reject what is written in the Quran, which was formerly written in the Bible, and was ‘confirmed’ to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.


Placid




Print Page | Close Window