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CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING?

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200
Printed Date: 29 November 2014 at 12:59am


Topic: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING?
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING?
Date Posted: 03 November 2012 at 4:52am
1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.



Replies:
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 23 November 2012 at 2:13pm
Hi Mahdi,

--- I have been going through your list of questions, that others have not answered, and I am nearing the end of them

However, --- this was written about the Amalekites who lived about 1070 BC. They were a nomadic, marauding people who did not believe in God and were an enemy to Israel, so eventually, they were annihilated.

The Calendar was restarted with the birth of Jesus, --- and the New Covenant (the New Testament). --- During the time of Jesus, the followers were persecuted, but did not retaliate. --- The Scripture says, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

There have been atrocities in the name of religion, including Christianity, --- but for ‘believing’ Christians who worship God and follow Jesus, it is the very opposite of, --- “Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.”    

Quote: Christians would you kill a suckling?
1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.




Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

--- I have been going through your list of questions, that others have not answered, and I am nearing the end of them

However, --- this was written about the Amalekites who lived about 1070 BC. They were a nomadic, marauding people who did not believe in God and were an enemy to Israel, so eventually, they were annihilated.

The Calendar was restarted with the birth of Jesus, --- and the New Covenant (the New Testament). --- During the time of Jesus, the followers were persecuted, but did not retaliate. --- The Scripture says, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

There have been atrocities in the name of religion, including Christianity, --- but for ‘believing’ Christians who worship God and follow Jesus, it is the very opposite of, --- “Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.”    

Quote: Christians would you kill a suckling?
1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.




wow. justifying the killing of sucklings.wow


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 4:44pm
Placid, your response is a typical Christian response.  First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded. 

Also, it wasn't just the Amalekites which were "annihilated".  It was also the Midianites...and the Hittites...and the Amorites...and the Perizzites...and so on...

What I find even more ironic is the fact that the same Christians who so enthusiastically defend the Biblically-sanctioned genocide also have the audacity to actually criticize the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for fighting against his enemies and killing them!  Yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not kill women, children, the elderly, or farm animals!  I don't know if you are one of these Christians, but it is an all too common hypocrisy amongst many of your brethren. 




-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 9:00pm
Greetings Islamispeace,

It is because with Jesus came a new covenant... God was "doing a new thing".
Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways.
Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the good news... the new testament... the new covenant.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 3:59am
Except that it wasn't a war of genocide but a war of liberation. The Book of Joshua was written in a high context culture which knew that Canaan was part of the Egyptian Empire and that Canaan was ruled by pro-Egyptian Quisling Kings. Most of the Canaanites had been exiled in Egypt and came back with the Israelites. The Exodus led by Moses did not have Israelites in it. And even then if you study the Book of Joshua carefully, Joshua's battles were disabling operations and not genocide. He only destroyed three cities, Jericho, Ai and Hazor. They then kept going back to Gilgal. After Joshua died, the plan fell apart and Israel was overrun by different nations. They ended up living with the Canaanites, and the conquest was only completed by David. As God said to Abraham, the sin of the Amorites had not reached its full measure. (Genesis 15:16) As for the Amalekites, Saul was instructed only to attack one settlement. If you study the history of the Amalekites from the Bible and from the records of the other nations around, the Amalekites were a unique culture which was entirely based on terrorism and raids, in which even the children were involved. They had in earlier times attacked the elderly and babies from behind when Moses was marching with Israel through the Sinai Peninsula.

God gave the order against the Canaanite tribes as an act of judgement for their sin, but He did so knowing Israel would fail, mix with them and lose the ideological war with them, ending up just like them, so they suffered the same fate as the Canaanites in the north in 721 BC and the south in 587 BC. Remember, Midianites actually merged in with Israelit culture- after all, Moses' father in law was the Midianite priest of God.

People need to read the Bible carefully to see what it actually says and not what people think it says.


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 9:04am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.


One wonders why you quote this verse and not Matthew 5:44 where Jesus tells us to love our enemies?


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Mahdi,

--- I have been going through your list of questions, that others have not answered, and I am nearing the end of them

However, --- this was written about the Amalekites who lived about 1070 BC. They were a nomadic, marauding people who did not believe in God and were an enemy to Israel, so eventually, they were annihilated.

The Calendar was restarted with the birth of Jesus, --- and the New Covenant (the New Testament). --- During the time of Jesus, the followers were persecuted, but did not retaliate. --- The Scripture says, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

There have been atrocities in the name of religion, including Christianity, --- but for ‘believing’ Christians who worship God and follow Jesus, it is the very opposite of, --- “Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.”    

Quote: Christians would you kill a suckling?
1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.




Placid,
so according to your book, God ordered killings of man and women who do not believe as you do including their infants and poor ox and sheep, camel and ass.
How you justify and associated such and action to God you claim to be loving?
Please explain in plain English and be brief.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 1:20pm
Hi Islam,

Quote: Placid, your response is a typical Christian response. First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded.

Response: --- You arrived at some strange conclusions from what I said.
--- First, --- A typical Christian response might have been, “That was under the Old Covenant and happened about 3080 years ago, what has that got to do with Christians today?” --- And that could be the end of the response.
--- Second, ‘God (Jesus, in your view)’ --- is totally wrong, --- “God is God and there is no other.” --- There is no place in the NT where Jesus said, “I am God.”
--- Though some may express that, --- I don’t. --- Because Jesus was born on earth.

The same angel Gabriel that gave revelations to Muhammad, and ‘confirmed’ the former Scriptures as being true in Surah 3:3, and 5:48, also said to Mary in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.”

--- You see, the New Covenant (Testament) introduces God as our “Heavenly Father” and Jesus was CALLED the “Son of God.” --- It starts the “Family of God,” --- which true believers can be “adopted” into.
--- Jesus was not a “Son” by physical relationship, but The Holy Spirit planted the seed of Life in Mary’s womb, as it says in Surah 66:
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).
12 Rodwell: And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb We breathed of Our Spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout. --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and since He had no earthly Father, --- was he not from God?)

--- Third --- There is no more ‘condoning’ of atrocities in those days than there is of ‘condoning’ terrorism today, --- which ends up with innocent victims.

We can explain simply why it was done, --- but from 3080 years after the fact, --- I have no comment.
--- The people in the land were descendants of Noah’s 3 sons. The ones in Canaan were sons of Ham, --- and the ones in Ur of the Chaldees were sons of Shem --- but they were all idolaters.

--- Idolatry is the greatest sin against God, because ‘other gods’ suggest an ‘alternative’ to God. --- The people had become so overtaken with idolatry and immorality that there was no chance of recovery. --- Read about the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 18:16- 19:29, --- or some of the 7 places it is mentioned in the Quran. --- And how about the 360 some idols in the Kabah in Mecca when Muhammad was called to destroy idolatry, and return the people to believing in One God?

While God destroys everything that is contaminated with sin, --- the innocent children, and the ones who truly believe in God, would be judged righteous by God, would they not?.
--- When a society gets to the point where all that the children learn from their parents is idolatry and immorality, --- is it not more ‘merciful’ to destroy the ‘sin center’ and save the innocent children and the true believers, and grant them eternal life, --- than to have them learn to live and die in sin, and all be cast into hell?

Abraham was called out of his idolatrous family in Ur of the Chaldees, whose father was an idolater, Surah 6:
74 (Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest.
Also, different places in the Quran God said, “How many cities have We destroyed because of their sin?”    
   

Placid



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Islamispeace,

It is because with Jesus came a new covenant... God was "doing a new thing".
Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways.
Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the good news... the new testament... the new covenant.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Caringheart, there are so many things wrong with your post, I don't know where to begin. 

First, you say that Jesus came with a new covenant...that "God was doing a new thing".  But you believe Jesus is God.  Therefore, it was Jesus who ordered the merciless genocides which are described in graphic detail in the so-called "Old Testament" (Tanakh).  Nothing can change that.  So what if he came with a "new covenant"?  How does that change the fact that under his orders, the Israelites murdered hundreds of thousands of people, including innocent children and babies?  What sort of twisted individual is not disturbed by these monstrous verses? 

Then you say the utterly ridiculous claim that "Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways."  Wow!  Really?  This is the good old Christian hypocrisy I was talking about.  Before I refute this absurd statement, inshaAllah, I would like to give you the opportunity to prove that you are not a hypocrite, like so many of your brethren.  If you think that Muhammad (pbuh) was so wrong for fighting against his enemies and killing them to protect his people, then do you also feel that Moses (pbuh) was wrong for fighting the Cannanites...and butchering all of them?  If you are critical of Muhammad (pbuh), are you also criticial of Moses (pbuh)?  Here is your chance to remove the stench of hypocrisy from yourself.

Now, onto your claim that "Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways".  I think the best way to refute this utterly asinine statement is to make a simple comparison with the "Old Testament ways" and the Ways of Muhammad (pbuh):

Old Testament Ways - "Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you."
(Deuteronomy 20:17)

Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (Surah al-Mumtahana, 60:8)

Old Testament Ways - When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.
35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34)

Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "
Hanzala Al-Katib reported: We went on an expedition with the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and we passed by a woman who had been killed http://www.dailyhadithonline.com/2012/09/17/hadith-on-jihad-the-prophet-forbade-killing-women-workers-or-anyone-who-is-not-fighting/ - and the people were gathered around her. They dispersed and he said, “She was not among those who were fighting.” Then he told a man to return to Khalid ibn Al-Waleed and say to him, “Verily, the Messenger of Allah has commanded you, saying: do not kill children or workers.”" (Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Jihad, Number 2842)

Old Testament Ways - "So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed "#fen-NIV-4982a" - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-4982a - a ] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying "#fen-NIV-4982b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-4982b - b ] every city—men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves." (Deueteronomy 3:3-7)

Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. do not kill a decrepit old man, o a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well." (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 14, Number 2608)

We could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.  The "Old Testament ways", as you put them, are completely different from the Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) and the Ways of Islam.  Only a fool would think the two are comparable. 

As for the "New Covenant", it seems that it will last only until the return of Jesus (pbuh), after which teachings like "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" will go out the window:

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”" (Luke 19:27)

" http://gill.biblecommenter.com/luke/19.htm - Gill's Exposition of Entire the Bible " comments on this verse:

"bring hither, and slay them before me; which had its accomplishment in the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies; and to this the parable has a special respect, and of which Christ more largely discourses in this chapter; see http://bible.cc/luke/19-41.htm - Luke 19:41 though it is true of all natural men, that they are enemies to Christ; and so of all negligent and slothful professors, and ministers of the word, who, when Christ shall come a second time, of which his coming to destroy the Jewish nation was an emblem and pledge, will be punished with everlasting destruction by him; and then all other enemies will be slain and destroyed, sin, Satan, the world, and death:"

So much for the "New Covenant". 



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- You arrived at some strange conclusions from what I said.
--- First, --- A typical Christian response might have been, “That was under the Old Covenant and happened about 3080 years ago, what has that got to do with Christians today?”


Placid, your response was typical of Christians as I explained.  You tried to excuse the genocide instead of condemning it as any rational individual would do. 

Originally posted by Placid

Second, ‘God (Jesus, in your view)’ --- is totally wrong, --- “God is God and there is no other.” --- There is no place in the NT where Jesus said, “I am God.”
--- Though some may express that, --- I don’t. --- Because Jesus was born on earth.


I am glad to hear you say that!  I apologize for assuming that you believe Jesus was God.  But as you identify yourself as a Christian, my assumption was understandable.  If I may ask, are you a Jehovah's Witness?

But the problem still remains.  If God ordered these killings, yet at the same time, God is just and fair, how do you reconcile the killing of babies?

Originally posted by Placid

The same angel Gabriel that gave revelations to Muhammad, and ‘confirmed’ the former Scriptures as being true in Surah 3:3, and 5:48, also said to Mary in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.”


This is off-topic but let me just say that the Holy Quran states clearly that Jesus is NOT the "son of God":

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (9:30)

Originally posted by Placid

Rodwell: And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb We breathed of Our Spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout. --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and since He had no earthly Father, --- was he not from God?)


The Quran has a very simple answer for this:

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59)

Originally posted by Placid

Third --- There is no more ‘condoning’ of atrocities in those days than there is of ‘condoning’ terrorism today, --- which ends up with innocent victims.


There were innocent victims in the Israelite genocides.  I have yet to hear one Christian condemn these genocides.  On the other hand, plenty of Muslims condemn terrorism done in the name of Islam, and the Quran and Sunnah both categorically condemn the killing of innocent people.

Originally posted by Placid

We can explain simply why it was done, --- but from 3080 years after the fact, --- I have no comment.


Exactly!  This is the Christian answer: ignore it.  But your answer also shows me that in the back of your mind, you know it is wrong.  You just can't bring yourself around to say it because it would mean you are questioning what you believe is "scripture". 

Originally posted by Placid

The people in the land were descendants of Noah’s 3 sons. The ones in Canaan were sons of Ham, --- and the ones in Ur of the Chaldees were sons of Shem --- but they were all idolaters.

Idolatry is the greatest sin against God, because ‘other gods’ suggest an ‘alternative’ to God. --- The people had become so overtaken with idolatry and immorality that there was no chance of recovery. --- Read about the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 18:16- 19:29, --- or some of the 7 places it is mentioned in the Quran. --- And how about the 360 some idols in the Kabah in Mecca when Muhammad was called to destroy idolatry, and return the people to believing in One God?
 

I thought you said you had no comment?  Now you are trying to find excuses again.  What does the facts that the people of Canaan were descendants of Noah's sons and were all idolaters have to do with the killing of innocent children and babies?  Why are you trying to excuse the inexcusable?

Originally posted by Placid

While God destroys everything that is contaminated with sin, --- the innocent children, and the ones who truly believe in God, would be judged righteous by God, would they not?.


None of this changes the fact that these children were killed in the most gruesome ways.  Just imagine what the scene must have looked like.  Innocent children and babies being slaughtered like lambs with the sword, and their blood staining the earth.  I doubt any rational person can say it was okay to kill them since they would "judged righteous by God..." 

Originally posted by Placid

When a society gets to the point where all that the children learn from their parents is idolatry and immorality, --- is it not more ‘merciful’ to destroy the ‘sin center’ and save the innocent children and the true believers, and grant them eternal life, --- than to have them learn to live and die in sin, and all be cast into hell?


If that is the case, then one could argue that such behavior should be done even today.  If the idea is to "save" them from Hell, then all children living in the modern world, where sin is everywhere, should be killed.  Furthermore, who is to say that those children could not be taught to worship the One God?   

Islam totally rejects this twisted logic:

"Yazid ibn Hurmaz reported: Najda wrote a letter to Ibn Abbas asking him about killing children. He wrote back saying, “You wrote to me and asked me about killing children. The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, did not kill them and you should not kill them, unless you know about them what the companion of Moses knew about the boy.”" (Musnad Ahmad, #3254)

Originally posted by Placid

Abraham was called out of his idolatrous family in Ur of the Chaldees, whose father was an idolater, Surah 6:
74 (Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest.
Also, different places in the Quran God said, “How many cities have We destroyed because of their sin?”


But was Abraham (pbuh) killed?  Of course not! 

And as far as the cities that were punished, they were destroyed by God Himself, not by an army under His command.  God decides who lives and who dies, not humans.  This is true in everyday life as well as in battle.  In battle, God has decreed that killing unarmed civilians is am abhorrent sin. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Except that it wasn't a war of genocide but a war of liberation. The Book of Joshua was written in a high context culture which knew that Canaan was part of the Egyptian Empire and that Canaan was ruled by pro-Egyptian Quisling Kings. Most of the Canaanites had been exiled in Egypt and came back with the Israelites. The Exodus led by Moses did not have Israelites in it. And even then if you study the Book of Joshua carefully, Joshua's battles were disabling operations and not genocide. He only destroyed three cities, Jericho, Ai and Hazor. They then kept going back to Gilgal. After Joshua died, the plan fell apart and Israel was overrun by different nations. They ended up living with the Canaanites, and the conquest was only completed by David. As God said to Abraham, the sin of the Amorites had not reached its full measure. (Genesis 15:16) As for the Amalekites, Saul was instructed only to attack one settlement. If you study the history of the Amalekites from the Bible and from the records of the other nations around, the Amalekites were a unique culture which was entirely based on terrorism and raids, in which even the children were involved. They had in earlier times attacked the elderly and babies from behind when Moses was marching with Israel through the Sinai Peninsula.

God gave the order against the Canaanite tribes as an act of judgement for their sin, but He did so knowing Israel would fail, mix with them and lose the ideological war with them, ending up just like them, so they suffered the same fate as the Canaanites in the north in 721 BC and the south in 587 BC. Remember, Midianites actually merged in with Israelit culture- after all, Moses' father in law was the Midianite priest of God.

People need to read the Bible carefully to see what it actually says and not what people think it says.


This is the first time I have heard a Christian actually claim that this was not genocide.  All I can say is...wow.  Apparently, it is not genocide when you kill off entire cities and nations, slaughtering even the children and babies!  What is it if not genocide...?

By the way, the genocide started with Moses (pbuh) and was continued by his successors, including Joshua.  What was that you said about reading the Bible carefully to see what it actually says?  

 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 8:02pm
Greetings Islamispeace,

I appreciate all that you have said.

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 
(Deuteronomy 18, I have used both KJV and NIV to make reading easier without detracting from the true message)

and Deuteronomy 34
10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 who did all those signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
 ... until Jesus.  Jesus is this "new thing" which God decides to do, because the people asked for it.
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.  - the words of Jesus.
Originally posted by islamispeace


  What sort of twisted individual is not disturbed by these monstrous verses? 

You are correct, and this is why so many people reject religion... reject the notion of God.
and as I said...
"Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the new covenant."
Originally posted by islamispeace

If you are critical of Muhammad (pbuh), are you also criticial of Moses (pbuh)? 

Honestly... yes, I am.  I only accept Moses because it was the first appearance of God to the people, and then in the later scriptures, more than once, God says that He is revealing that He will do a new thing, and it will not be understood until its time arrives.  I believe in Jesus as the new covenant... that God of the old testament and of the first followers... i.e., Abraham et.al. ... God of the old testament was a God who visited His wrath, time and again, on His people, and it did no good... so yes, I believe God was doing just as He said He would do... He was "doing a new thing" when He decided to come to the people in human form, to show rather than His wrath, but the depth of His Love.  It is this Love that leads the followers of Jesus to God.  'Greater love has no one than this... that he lay down his life for another.'  It is in seeing this great love in the sacrifice God made for us that we are led to Love in return, and Love leads one into obedience, out of a desire not to cause hurt to the One who loves us so much.

Regarding this;
Old Testament Ways - When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34)
Your comparisons are like comparing apples with oranges because it does not compare the word of the torah with the word of the quran.  And regardless of what was said, the followers of Muhammad did the things boldened above.  Muhammad was well known for conquering and taking the conquered as slaves.

What I mean by Muhammad revives the old testament ways is the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth', kind of thinking.  Jesus taught if anyone smite the one cheek, offer him the other... Jesus taught, whoever is without sin may cast the first stone... and 'go and sin no more', you are forgiven your sins.  Jesus taught mercy.  To some extent Muhammad understood mercy, but not entirely.  He was willing not to kill, but to subjugate.  This was also to his benefit since he could then collect taxes from those whom he subjugated.  You can't collect anything from a dead man.  So we can question his motivation.  I am not saying I have the answer, but I do know that the things he did are questionable.  And the quran instructs to smite the necks of all unbelievers(anyone who will not take the shahada, anyone who does not believe in Muhammad, even though they believe in the One God), this is no different that the Israelites being commanded to kill all the Canaanites, classifying them all as pagan idolators(i.e., as evil people)... same thing.  Islam views anyone non-muslim the same way the Israelites were told to treat the Canaanites.  Old covenant ways vs. new covenant ways.  Islam ignores the 'new thing' which God brought.
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"
Yes, I have a problem with that scripture.  Let it also be noted that none of the Apostles acted in this way.  In fact Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting of the ear of one who came to arrest Jesus.

I honestly can not understand the 'Gill's exposition'.  If I can find the time and energy to delve into it at another time I will.

Salaam,
CH

We'll see if this is allowed to post.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


If that is the case, then one could argue that such behavior should be done even today.  If the idea is to "save" them from Hell, then all children living in the modern world, where sin is everywhere, should be killed.  Furthermore, who is to say that those children could not be taught to worship the One God?   


And as far as the cities that were punished, they were destroyed by God Himself, not by an army under His command.  God decides who lives and who dies, not humans.


Greetings islamispeace,

I like these things you say.  It shows that we are on common ground. Smile

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 5:38am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Placid, your response is a typical Christian response.  First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded.  Also, it wasn't just the Amalekites which were "annihilated".  It was also the Midianites...and the Hittites...and the Amorites...and the Perizzites...and so on...What I find even more ironic is the fact that the same Christians who so enthusiastically defend the Biblically-sanctioned genocide also have the audacity to actually criticize the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for fighting against his enemies and killing them!  Yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not kill women, children, the elderly, or farm animals!  I don't know if you are one of these Christians, but it is an all too common hypocrisy amongst many of your brethren. 



somebody should add a like button in this forum


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 5:48am
Originally posted by islamispeace



Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Islamispeace,It is because with Jesus came a new covenant... God was "doing a new thing".Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways.Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the good news... the new testament... the new covenant.Salaam,Caringheart

Caringheart, there are so many things wrong with your post, I don't know where to begin.  First, you say that Jesus came with a new covenant...that "God was doing a new thing".  But you believe Jesus is God.  Therefore, it was Jesus who ordered the merciless genocides which are described in graphic detail in the so-called "Old Testament" (Tanakh).  Nothing can change that.  So what if he came with a "new covenant"?  How does that change the fact that under his orders, the Israelites murdered hundreds of thousands of people, including innocent children and babies?  What sort of twisted individual is not disturbed by these monstrous verses?  Then you say the utterly ridiculous claim that "Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways."  Wow!  Really?  This is the good old Christian hypocrisy I was talking about.  Before I refute this absurd statement, inshaAllah, I would like to give you the opportunity to prove that you are not a hypocrite, like so many of your brethren.  If you think that Muhammad (pbuh) was so wrong for fighting against his enemies and killing them to protect his people, then do you also feel that Moses (pbuh) was wrong for fighting the Cannanites...and butchering all of them?  If you are critical of Muhammad (pbuh), are you also criticial of Moses (pbuh)?  Here is your chance to remove the stench of hypocrisy from yourself.Now, onto your claim that "Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways".  I think the best way to refute this utterly asinine statement is to make a simple comparison with the "Old Testament ways" and the Ways of Muhammad (pbuh):<span id="en-NIV-5445" ="text="" deut-20-17"=""><span id="en-NIV-5445" ="text="" deut-20-17"="">Old Testament Ways - "Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord</span> your God has commanded you." </span>(Deuteronomy 20:17)</span>Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "Allah
forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your)
Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly
with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (Surah al-Mumtahana, 60:8)
Old Testament Ways - <span id="en-NIV-4971" ="text="" deut-2-32"="">When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz,</span> <span id="en-NIV-4972" ="text="" deut-2-33"=""><sup ="versenum"="">33 the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord</span> our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4973" ="text="" deut-2-34"=""><sup ="versenum"="">34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4974" ="text="" deut-2-35"=""><sup ="versenum"="">35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34)Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "</span><span id="en-NIV-4974" ="text="" deut-2-35"="">Hanzala Al-Katib reported: We went on an expedition with the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and we passed by a woman who had been killed http://www.dailyhadithonline.com/2012/09/17/hadith-on-jihad-the-prophet-forbade-killing-women-workers-or-anyone-who-is-not-fighting/ - and the people were gathered around her. They dispersed and he said, “She was not among those who were fighting.” Then he told a man to return to Khalid ibn Al-Waleed and say to him, “Verily, the Messenger of Allah has commanded you, saying: do not kill children or workers.”"</span> (Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Jihad, Number 2842)Old Testament Ways - "<span id="en-NIV-4979" ="text="" deut-3-3"="">So the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord</span> our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4980" ="text="" deut-3-4"=""><sup ="versenum"="">4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4981" ="text="" deut-3-5"=""><sup ="versenum"="">5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4982" ="text="" deut-3-6"=""><sup ="versenum"="">6 We completely destroyed - a >">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-4982a - a > them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying - b >">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-4982b - b > every city—men, women and children.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4983" ="text="" deut-3-7"=""><sup ="versenum"="">7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.</span>" (Deueteronomy 3:3-7)Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Go in
Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's
Apostle. do not kill a decrepit old man, o a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well." (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 14, Number 2608)
We could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.  The "Old Testament ways", as you put them, are completely different from the Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) and the Ways of Islam.  Only a fool would think the two are comparable.  As for the "New Covenant", it seems that it will last only until the return of Jesus (pbuh), after which teachings like "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" will go out the window:"<span ="woj"="">But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”</span>" (Luke 19:27)" http://gill.biblecommenter.com/luke/19.htm - Gill's Exposition of Entire the Bible " comments on this verse:"bring hither, and slay them before me; which had its accomplishment in
the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with
the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies; and to this the
parable has a special respect, and of which Christ more largely
discourses in this chapter; see http://bible.cc/luke/19-41.htm - Luke 19:41
though it is true of all natural men, that they are enemies to Christ;
and so of all negligent and slothful professors, and ministers of the
word, who, when Christ shall come a second time, of which his coming to
destroy the Jewish nation was an emblem and pledge, will be punished
with everlasting destruction by him
; and then all other enemies will be
slain and destroyed, sin, Satan, the world, and death:
"So much for the "New Covenant". 

like


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 5:49am
Hi Honeto,   

Quote: ‘so according to your book, God ordered killings of man and women who do not believe as you do.’

Response: --- By now you will have read my response to Islam.
However, I want to ask you, “What is written in your book?”

Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them).
10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk.
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).
29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime."
29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls.
32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen?
38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
50:36 But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?

God was merciful and gave them warning, or an example, --- but sin reaches a limit, --- and that is what is coming again, is it not?


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 10:47am
Jakallah brother, great replies to all three above.
Truth stands out clear from error and cover ups.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

This is the first time I have heard a Christian actually claim that this was not genocide.  All I can say is...wow.  Apparently, it is not genocide when you kill off entire cities and nations, slaughtering even the children and babies!  What is it if not genocide...?By the way, the genocide started with Moses (pbuh) and was continued by his successors, including Joshua.  What was that you said about reading the Bible carefully to see what it actually says? 

The position is that the Bible does describe events where large numbers are killed. In many cases one can rationalise what is done but that i think is unwise and the premier emotion is one of sorrow. But in Christian and Jewish theology we say those stories are closed, that is we acknowledge they happened but they are not examples to be followed. We may read the stories and there may be lessons we can learn but that is all.

In Islam there have been many genocides from the massacre of the Jews in medina to Darfur. The question is do Muslims feel a deep sence of sorrow for these events and/or use them as examples to follow?


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by honeto

Jakallah brother, great replies to all three above.
Truth stands out clear from error and cover ups.
Hasan


Ameen!


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by islamispeace

Placid, your response is a typical Christian response.  First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded.  Also, it wasn't just the Amalekites which were "annihilated".  It was also the Midianites...and the Hittites...and the Amorites...and the Perizzites...and so on...What I find even more ironic is the fact that the same Christians who so enthusiastically defend the Biblically-sanctioned genocide also have the audacity to actually criticize the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for fighting against his enemies and killing them!  Yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not kill women, children, the elderly, or farm animals!  I don't know if you are one of these Christians, but it is an all too common hypocrisy amongst many of your brethren. 



somebody should add a like button in this forum


Jazak Allah Khair, brother. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 1:19pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Bunter, you said:

The position is that the Bible does describe events where large numbers are killed. In many cases one can rationalise what is done but that i think is unwise and the premier emotion is one of sorrow. But in Christian and Jewish theology we say those stories are closed, that is we acknowledge they happened but they are not examples to be followed. We may read the stories and there may be lessons we can learn but that is all.


One cannot "rationalize" the irrational.  Killing babies is not only irrational, it is evil.  God is not evil.  God is merciful, compassionate, just and fair.  In short, God is good.  By "acknowledging" the stories of infanticide, Jews and Christians are acknowledging evil, but also accepting a lie against God.  God did not order those crimes, if they even happened.  There are no "lessons" to be learned from reading these stories.  If you can name them, please be my guest.  I, for one, cannot fathom what bizarre "lesson" one can gain from baby-killing. 

Originally posted by Bunter

In Islam there have been many genocides from the massacre of the Jews in medina to Darfur. The question is do Muslims feel a deep sence of sorrow for these events and/or use them as examples to follow?
 

What on earth does Darfur have to do with this?  I can understand your reference to the Bani Qurayza incident, but Darfur? 

In any case, the punishment of the Bani Qurayza pales in comparison to the actual genocide in the Bible.  The ones that were killed of the Bani Qurayza were their fighters, not the women and children.  Therefore, it is like comparing "apples to oranges", as Caringheart puts it.

Furthermore, the Bani Qurayza were only punished after their betrayal of Muhammad (pbuh) during the Battle of the Trench.  On the other hand, the Canaanites had done nothing to the Israelites to be wiped off the face of the earth. 

And Allah knows best.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 3:09pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Caringheart, you said:

Greetings Islamispeace, I appreciate all that you have said.



Well that's great, but did you understand and contemplate the simple truth or did you cast it aside like so many others?  Let' see.

Originally posted by Caringheart

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 
(Deuteronomy 18, I have used both KJV and NIV to make reading easier without detracting from the true message)

and Deuteronomy 34
10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 who did all those signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
 ... until Jesus.  Jesus is this "new thing" which God decides to do, because the people asked for it.
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.  - the words of Jesus.


This is all irrelevant, as I said before.  None of this changes the fact that from your point of view, it was Jesus who would have been the one to have ordered the Israelites to commit genocide and infanticide.  Pontificating on a "New Covenant" does not erase the legacy of genocide.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You are correct, and this is why so many people reject religion... reject the notion of God.
and as I said...
"Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the new covenant."


But the point is that it should not have to be this way!  God is good, not evil.  The Biblical stories of genocide are evil.  Therefore, they could not have been the result of God's command.  In short, God did not command the Israelites to commit genocide.  This is a lie against God which the Judeo-Christian tradition has perpetuated for centuries. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Honestly... yes, I am.  I only accept Moses because it was the first appearance of God to the people, and then in the later scriptures, more than once, God says that He is revealing that He will do a new thing, and it will not be understood until its time arrives.


I expected this sort of answer..self-contradictory.  You say you are critical of Moses (pbuh) but then you say that you still "accept" him because it was God's "first appearance".  How can you criticize him yet still "accept" him?  More importantly, how can you be critical of him if he was only doing the will of God?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I believe in Jesus as the new covenant... that God of the old testament and of the first followers... i.e., Abraham et.al. ... God of the old testament was a God who visited His wrath, time and again, on His people, and it did no good...
 

"It did no good..."??  Then why did God do it?  Wouldn't He have known that it would do "no good"?  Are you accusing God of incompetence, astagfirAllah?  Be careful you do not blaspheme His Holy Name.

Originally posted by Caringheart

so yes, I believe God was doing just as He said He would do... He was "doing a new thing" when He decided to come to the people in human form, to show rather than His wrath, but the depth of His Love.  It is this Love that leads the followers of Jesus to God.  'Greater love has no one than this... that he lay down his life for another.'  It is in seeing this great love in the sacrifice God made for us that we are led to Love in return, and Love leads one into obedience, out of a desire not to cause hurt to the One who loves us so much.


What good is this gesture of "love" when:

1.  For centuries prior, there was only "wrath", pain and violence;

2.  In the end, all who rejected God will once again experience His "wrath"?

Furthermore, how can any of us "hurt" God?  As the Quran says, God does not need us.  Rather, it is us who need Him:

"O ye men! It is ye that have need of Allah: but Allah is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise." (3:15)

Therefore, whether we accept Him or not, He does not need anything from us.  We reject Him to our own detriment. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Your comparisons are like comparing apples with oranges because it does not compare the word of the torah with the word of the quran.


Well of course it is "like comparing apples with oranges"!  That's what I was saying!  There is no comparison between the two. 

And contrary to your claim, I was comparing the "Word of the [alleged] Torah" and the "Word of the Quran".  The verses describing the genocide are from the alleged Torah.

Originally posted by Caringheart

And regardless of what was said, the followers of Muhammad did the things boldened above.  Muhammad was well known for conquering and taking the conquered as slaves.
 

And that bothers you...but what Moses did is somehow justified?  Wow...

Also, let me just correct you for more of your absurd claims regarding Muhammad (pbuh).  He conquered his enemies, not innocent people, unlike the Moses of the Bible.  Moreover, he did not kill women and children, unlike the Moses of the Bible.  How you have any reason to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) is beyond comprehension. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

What I mean by Muhammad revives the old testament ways is the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth', kind of thinking.


Actually, the Quran declares that when God revealed the true Torah to the Jews, it included a stipulation to the "an eye for an eye" maxim:

"We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers." (2:45)

So, while God allowed the victims of injustice to demand justice, He also stipulated that it was best to forgive, because forgiveness would atone for their own sins.  This teaching was also applied to Muslims:

"The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong." (42:40)

There is also a famous hadith of the Prophet which stipulates the importance of forgiveness:

"Mu’adh ibn Anas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “The best of virtues is that you maintain relations with one who cuts you off, that you give to one who deprives you, and that you pardon one who insults you.”" (Musnad Ahmad, Number 15191)


Originally posted by Caringheart

To some extent Muhammad understood mercy, but not entirely.  He was willing not to kill, but to subjugate.  This was also to his benefit since he could then collect taxes from those whom he subjugated.  You can't collect anything from a dead man.  So we can question his motivation.


This is more nonsense.  It is well-known that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived a simple life of poverty and gave away all his possessions to others.  So, if he was interested in acquiring wealth which was at his fingertips, giving it away would not be prudent.  Here is the proof that his "motivation" was not wealth, as you so ignorantly assumed:

"Narrated 'Amr bin Al-Harith: The Prophet did not leave anything (after his death) except his arms, a white mule, and a (piece of) land which he had given as Sadaqa." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 53, Number 330)


"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah Apostle said, "If I had gold equal to the mountain of Uhud, it would not please me that anything of it should remain with me after three nights (i.e., I would spend all of it in Allah's Cause) except what I would keep for repaying debts."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 452)

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Riches does not mean, having a great amount of property, but riches is self-contentment."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 453)

"Narrated 'Aisha: The bed mattress of the Prophet was made of a leather case stuffed with palm fibres." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 463)


Also, if you were more knowledgeable about the tax that the Prophet took from non-Muslims, you would know that it was only taken from males, not women and children.  Therefore, if taxes were his motivation for not killing women and children, as you claim, then there is no reason he would not have killed them! 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I am not saying I have the answer, but I do know that the things he did are questionable.


You certainly don't have the answers because of your ignorance and bias. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

And the quran instructs to smite the necks of all unbelievers(anyone who will not take the shahada, anyone who does not believe in Muhammad, even though they believe in the One God), this is no different that the Israelites being commanded to kill all the Canaanites, classifying them all as pagan idolators(i.e., as evil people)... same thing.  Islam views anyone non-muslim the same way the Israelites were told to treat the Canaanites.  Old covenant ways vs. new covenant ways.  Islam ignores the 'new thing' which God brought.


I can see you are getting more and more desperate to make Muhammad (pbuh) seem just as bloodthirsty as the Moses of the Bible, whom you hypocritically accept.  Here is what the Quran actually says:

"Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost." (47:4)

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."  (8:61)


I think we can see a pattern emerging in your posts.  You know nothing about Islam or the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and you make accusations which you don't actually support with solid evidence. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"
Yes, I have a problem with that scripture.  Let it also be noted that none of the Apostles acted in this way.  In fact Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting of the ear of one who came to arrest Jesus.

I honestly can not understand the 'Gill's exposition'.  If I can find the time and energy to delve into it at another time I will.


The point is that this "New Covenant" has an expiration date.  After this, says the Bible, Jesus will revert to the old ways and will command his followers (which includes you) to kill all who reject him.  Therefore, this "love" you speak of is not for all times and it is conditional.

And Allah knows best.

Walaikum as-salaam.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by islamispeace

This is the first time I have heard a Christian actually claim that this was not genocide.  All I can say is...wow.  Apparently, it is not genocide when you kill off entire cities and nations, slaughtering even the children and babies!  What is it if not genocide...?By the way, the genocide started with Moses (pbuh) and was continued by his successors, including Joshua.  What was that you said about reading the Bible carefully to see what it actually says? 

The position is that the Bible does describe events where large numbers are killed. In many cases one can rationalise what is done but that i think is unwise and the premier emotion is one of sorrow. But in Christian and Jewish theology we say those stories are closed, that is we acknowledge they happened but they are not examples to be followed. We may read the stories and there may be lessons we can learn but that is all.

In Islam there have been many genocides from the massacre of the Jews in medina to Darfur. The question is do Muslims feel a deep sence of sorrow for these events and/or use them as examples to follow?


Bunter,
by the way what lessons do you learn from those stories, and who declared that those are not to be followed, and if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands!
And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he?
Oh my..!
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


In any case, the punishment of the Bani Qurayza pales in comparison to the actual genocide in the Bible. 

I think the only difference is that the Jewish history is honest about its history and does nothing to cover it up... as are the Christians honest about the despicable things done in the name of Christianity.
Originally posted by islamispeace


On the other hand, the Canaanites had done nothing to the Israelites to be wiped off the face of the earth. 

Agreed, but as you say, God's knows best...
and that is why God came with a new covenant to 'do a new thing'.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 6:47pm
Greetings islamispeace,

Since your reply is so long.  I have decided to answer in parts.
Again, I appreciate all that you have said.
Originally posted by islamispeace


This is all irrelevant, as I said before.  None of this changes the fact that from your point of view, it was Jesus who would have been the one to have ordered the Israelites to commit genocide and infanticide.  Pontificating on a "New Covenant" does not erase the legacy of genocide.

No it was not Jesus.  Jesus was not conceived by God until after it was what was "asked of the Lord".  That was the point of sharing the scriptures.  It was not irrelevant.  It was God, before the idea of Jesus was even conceived, who spoke to Moses.  Jesus is the new covenant... a different aspect of God.

Originally posted by islamispeace


But the point is that it should not have to be this way!  God is good, not evil.  The Biblical stories of genocide are evil.  Therefore, they could not have been the result of God's command.  In short, God did not command the Israelites to commit genocide.

God of the old testament is real.  I agree God of the old testament can seem evil... yet there are Muslims who defend this same sort of Allah.  Who are we to judge God.  I am happy God decided to do a new thing and conceive a Son, a new covenant and abandon the old ways... to show a new side of Himself to us.  I can see no evil thing in Jesus.

 
Originally posted by islamispeace


How can you criticize him yet still "accept" him?  More importantly, how can you be critical of him if he was only doing the will of God?

How can I criticize you, yet still accept you?  I can, because I choose to, knowing that I do not know all.  I am not God, nor do I have the mind of God.  It helps to know all of God's scriptures.

Originally posted by islamispeace


"It did no good..."??  Then why did God do it?  Wouldn't He have known that it would do "no good"?  Are you accusing God of incompetence, astagfirAllah?  Be careful you do not blaspheme His Holy Name.

Again, I do not have the mind of God.  I hope to understand all one day but I know that day will not come until I meet my Maker.

Originally posted by islamispeace


2.  In the end, all who rejected God will once again experience His "wrath"?

Furthermore, how can any of us "hurt" God?  As the Quran says, God does not need us.  Rather, it is us who need Him:

They will have a chance to see the Truth in Jesus during the time of the tribulation.  There will still be a chance for redemption.

You don't think it hurts God to see His children, His creation, all astray, and destroying the beautiful gift which He gave to them... the gift of the earth, the moon, the stars, the sky, the sun, all nature, and the gift of life?
He does not need us, but He created us, and you think He does not love His creation?  That He does not hurt to see His creation hurt?  Why do you think satan is trying to destroy God's creation if not to hurt Him?

I agree it is us that need God.  He gives His law to protect us.

I must rest here.

Salaam for now,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by honeto


Bunter,
 if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands!
And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he?
Oh my..!
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

'They are in there' because the Jews do nothing to deny or hide their history.  For the rest, maybe you will have read my reply to islamispeace, above?

Peace to you,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

I was comparing the "Word of the [alleged] Torah" and the "Word of the Quran".

If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?  It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.

Originally posted by islamispeace


And that bothers you...but what Moses did is somehow justified?

Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?  I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.  But who am I?  Do I have the mind of God?  Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?

Originally posted by islamispeace


Also, let me just correct you for more of your absurd claims regarding Muhammad (pbuh).  He conquered his enemies, not innocent people, unlike the Moses of the Bible.  Moreover, he did not kill women and children, unlike the Moses of the Bible.  How you have any reason to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) is beyond comprehension. 


Muhammad conquered anyone he deemed to be his enemy.  Only Muhammad says they were not innocent.  He was judge, jury and executioner.  I'll bet you those people felt they were innocent and undeserving of what they received at the hand of Muhammad.


Regarding the surah's that you quoted;
Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.
I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?  Is it from the Qur'an?
You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.

Originally posted by islamispeace


Also, if you were more knowledgeable about the tax that the Prophet took from non-Muslims, you would know that it was only taken from males, not women and children.  Therefore, if taxes were his motivation for not killing women and children, as you claim, then there is no reason he would not have killed them! 
I know that Muhammad did not seek wealth for himself personally, but those that followed him did, and it supported armies to build the empire.

Women and children were taken as slaves.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I am not saying I have the answer, but I do know that the things he did are questionable.


It is because of my lack of ignorance, and my humility, that I do not claim to have all the answers.  Whom of us does?  But thanks for another attack on my personal character.  I do not accuse anyone of ignorance, do I?  Are we not all seeking after Truth?

I could quote you the other surah's and see what order of abrogation they take, but I do not have the time for it.  There is the one 'seek them out wherever you may find them, lay in wait, and slay them'.
So it depends on which surah's we choose to follow doesn't it?  Again, the confusion of Muhammad and his message.

I have the solid evidence, which I once took the time to provide but they were never allowed to post so I quit investing the time.  I have done my homework.  I have studied.  I hope you can say the same.

Originally posted by Caringheart

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"
Yes, I have a problem with that scripture.  Let it also be noted that none of the Apostles acted in this way.  In fact Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting of the ear of one who came to arrest Jesus.


I see you easily ignore this.

Peace to you, and may we find common ground to respect one another and our individual beliefs.  Only when we meet our Maker will we Know.
I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.

Salaam and may we all be saved,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 December 2012 at 11:49am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think the only difference is that the Jewish history is honest about its history and does nothing to cover it up... as are the Christians honest about the despicable things done in the name of Christianity.


And Muslims don't?  As I said before, you know NOTHING about Islam except your own biased, preconceived fantasies. 

As it stands, not ONE Christian that has posted on this thread, including yourself, has yet to categorically condemn the baby-killing in the Bible.  You have all tried to dance around the issue, making contradictory statements and hypocritical comparisons.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Agreed, but as you say, God's knows best...
and that is why God came with a new covenant to 'do a new thing'.
 

Yes, God knows best.  And He knows that killing babies is evil.  He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.  He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 December 2012 at 3:58pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

No it was not Jesus.  Jesus was not conceived by God until after it was what was "asked of the Lord".  That was the point of sharing the scriptures.  It was not irrelevant.  It was God, before the idea of Jesus was even conceived, who spoke to Moses.  Jesus is the new covenant... a different aspect of God.


It wasn't Jesus?  Don't you believe Jesus is God?  Does not the Gospel of John state that the "word" was there from the very beginning?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." (John 1:1-2)

"Barnes' Notes on the Bible" explains the meaning of "word":

"This name is given to him who afterward became "flesh," or was incarnate ( http://bible.cc/john/1-14.htm - John 1:14 - that is, to the Messiah. Whatever is meant by it, therefore, is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ." http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/john/1.htm - [1]


So, now you are contradicting your own scripture in these desperate attempts at explaining why God allowed the Israelites to kill babies. 

It is simple logic.  You believe Jesus is God.  You believe it was God who commanded the Israelites to kill babies.  Therefore, it was Jesus who commanded the Israelits to kill babies. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

God of the old testament is real.  I agree God of the old testament can seem evil... yet there are Muslims who defend this same sort of Allah.
 

Again, you try to change the subject.  First of all, Muslims do not believe that children can be killed.  Allah (swt) never commanded the Muslims to dash babies on rocks.  Who are you to accuse us of defending behavior similar to that of the Israelites? 

Second, any Muslim who does think that civilians, especially women and children, can be killed is contradicting the Quran and Sunnah.  Your problem is that your scripture condones the killing of civilians and you cannot bring around to say "Yes, it was wrong.  It was evil.  It could not have been commanded by God".  This is my challenge to you and to all Christians.  Make this statement and your hypocrisy and blasphemy against God will disappear.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Who are we to judge God.  I am happy God decided to do a new thing and conceive a Son, a new covenant and abandon the old ways... to show a new side of Himself to us.  I can see no evil thing in Jesus.
 

Wow...This excuse can be used to basically justify any type of atrocity.  It is the excuse of someone who knows in the back of their minds that something is wrong or evil. But because of their allegiance or loyalty to an institution, whether it is a religion or a government etc., they cannot actually say it because it would mean turning their backs on that institution.

Originally posted by Caringheart

How can I criticize you, yet still accept you?  I can, because I choose to, knowing that I do not know all.  I am not God, nor do I have the mind of God.  It helps to know all of God's scriptures.


You are comparing me to Moses (pbuh, the prophet of God, who received God's revelation and who spoke with God? 

Also, your response illustrates your blind faith.  You are not open to rational thought on matters pertaining to your religion.  That is why you feel so uncomfortable with this subject.  It is blatantly obvious from everyone of your posts.  In fact, it is obvious that every Christian who has posted on this thread is extremely uncomfortable with this issue

Originally posted by Caringheart

Again, I do not have the mind of God.  I hope to understand all one day but I know that day will not come until I meet my Maker.


God gave you an intellect.  He gave you a conscience.  By refusing to use your intellect and instead excuse your ignorance and contradictory viewpoints by saying you don't "understand" everything, you are deceiving yourself.  When you do meet your Maker, and meet him you will, you will not have an excuse for failing to see the plain truth that was dangling in front of you the whole time.

Originally posted by Caringheart

They will have a chance to see the Truth in Jesus during the time of the tribulation.  There will still be a chance for redemption.


Yup, right before Jesus descends and kills everyone who rejected him.  Hence, no more "New Covenant".  No more "love".  It will be back to the old days of murder and mayhem.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You don't think it hurts God to see His children, His creation, all astray, and destroying the beautiful gift which He gave to them... the gift of the earth, the moon, the stars, the sky, the sun, all nature, and the gift of life?


God is free of all wants.  If He was "hurt" by our rejection of Him, then He would not throw us into hellfire for eternity but instead gently bring us to Him.  The truth is that we choose disbelief at our own peril, as the Quran states:

"Let not those grieve thee who rush headlong into Unbelief: Not the least harm will they do to Allah: Allah's plan is that He will give them no portion in the Hereafter, but a severe punishment.  Those who purchase Unbelief at the price of faith,- not the least harm will they do to Allah, but they will have a grievous punishment." (3:176-177) 

Originally posted by Caringheart

He does not need us, but He created us, and you think He does not love His creation?  That He does not hurt to see His creation hurt?  Why do you think satan is trying to destroy God's creation if not to hurt Him?


Then He would have made us all believers.  He has that power, does He not?

"Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners" made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so: But leave alone them and their inventions." (6:137)

Originally posted by Caringheart

I agree it is us that need God.  He gives His law to protect us.


What "laws" are you referring to?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 December 2012 at 5:02pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?  It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.


I quoted from both the Quran and the Sunnah.  Do you know their significance?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?  I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.  But who am I?  Do I have the mind of God?  Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?


And so, using this excuse, you basically wash your hands clean and cast the issue aside.  As I said before, people can use this excuse to justify any type of atrocious behavior, even (apparently) the slaughter of innocent children.  All rational people of faith would abhor your statement.  I certainly do. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Muhammad conquered anyone he deemed to be his enemy.  Only Muhammad says they were not innocent.  He was judge, jury and executioner.  I'll bet you those people felt they were innocent and undeserving of what they received at the hand of Muhammad.


And I suppose you will educate us and tell us the "real" story?  All I have read in your posts are your own ridiculous opinions with no supporting evidence. 

Tell us, teacher.  Were the people the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saw as his enemies really innocent?  How so?  Why was he not justified in fighting against them and killing them?  Were Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab, the arch-persecutors of Muslims, really just two nice guys?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Regarding the surah's that you quoted;
Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.
 

More vague and ignorant statements.  Care to elaborate?  Many ignorant non-Muslims, who have not even an iota of understanding on the issue of "abrogation", appeal to this phenomenon in order to justify their ignorance and bias.  If you were so interested in it, I would think that you would do research the topic using authentic Islamic sources to gain a thorough understanding of it.  But, no.  You would rather just appeal to your limited knowledge based on reading material from like-minded people and just make absurd  and vague statements.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?  Is it from the Qur'an?
You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.


Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but to answer your question, the punishment for cutting off hands is found in the Quran.  It is the punishment for thieves and robbers, although repentance is also accepted:

"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.  But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:38-39)

You complain of being "confused"?  How so?  What is so confusing?  The killing of babies does not confuse you, huh?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Women and children were taken as slaves.


But before you were saying that the reason they were not killed was because Muhammad (pbuh) could get taxes from them.  When you were refuted for that ignorant statement, you changed gears and said "well, women and children were taken as slaves". 

Are you aware that Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged the freeing of slaves and their fair and humane treatment? 

"Narrated Abu Dhar: I asked the Prophet, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and to fight for His Cause." I then asked, "What is the best kind of manumission (of slaves)?" He replied, "The manumission of the most expensive slave and the most beloved by his master." I said, "If I cannot afford to do that?" He said, "Help the weak or do good for a person who cannot work for himself." I said, "If I cannot do that?" He said, "Refrain from harming others for this will be regarded as a charitable deed for your own good."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 46, #694)

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever manumits his share of a jointly possessed slave, it is imperative for him to get that slave manumitted completely by paying the remaining price, and if he does not have sufficient money to manumit him, then the price of the slave should be estimated justly, and he is to be allowed to work and earn the amount that will manumit him (without overburdening him)"." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 44, #672)

Originally posted by Caringheart

It is because of my lack of ignorance, and my humility, that I do not claim to have all the answers.  Whom of us does?  But thanks for another attack on my personal character.  I do not accuse anyone of ignorance, do I?  Are we not all seeking after Truth?


If that was the case, then you would not be making the silly and ridiculous claims you have made about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh).  Instead of making false accusations as if they were true, why didn't you just say "I have heard such and such verse says such and such thing"?  Pleading ignorance after you have been thoroughly refuted just exposes you as biased individual.  Case in point:

Originally posted by Caringheart

I could quote you the other surah's and see what order of abrogation they take, but I do not have the time for it.  There is the one 'seek them out wherever you may find them, lay in wait, and slay them'.
So it depends on which surah's we choose to follow doesn't it?  Again, the confusion of Muhammad and his message.


If you are so interested in the "truth", why not just pick up a copy of the Quran or read it online.  Here is a website that has the Quran: http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php - http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php

Let's see the http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=2 - surah you refer to in the proper context:

"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.  But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (9:3-6)

What is your problem with this surah?  Would you rather that the Muslims just had killed everyone off, you know like...cough...Moses?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have the solid evidence, which I once took the time to provide but they were never allowed to post so I quit investing the time.  I have done my homework.  I have studied.  I hope you can say the same.
 

Sure you do.  I doubt you have done your homework.  That is obvious from reading your posts.  You make asinine claims and then when you are refuted, you simply make another asinine claim and then say that you don't have all the answers.  Well of course you don't!  I already know that!  You don't have to tell me!

Originally posted by Caringheart

I see you easily ignore this.


When did I ignore this?  Are you going to make me repeat myself?  I responded to your post about Luke 19:27.  Here is what I said:

The point is that this "New Covenant" has an expiration date.  After this, says the Bible, Jesus will revert to the old ways and will command his followers (which includes you) to kill all who reject him.  Therefore, this "love" you speak of is not for all times and it is conditional.


Do you understand?  Your "New Covenant" which you so proudly speak of will expire.  So, it is irrelevant what the Apostles did or did not do.  As far as they were concerned, when Jesus would come (in their lifetimes as far as they knew), he would start a bloodbath.  You know...murder and mayhem, like the Old Testament ways.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Peace to you, and may we find common ground to respect one another and our individual beliefs.  Only when we meet our Maker will we Know.
I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.


Your Maker gave you an intellect.  If you don't use it, you will have no excuse on the Day you meet him.  You are taking a big risk by consigning yourself to find out the truth only when you meet Him.  By that time, it will be far too late to change your mind and repent.  The truth is already in front of you.  You just choose not to acknowledge it.  In short, you have already been deceived. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 December 2012 at 6:20pm
Greetings islamispeace,
 
Originally posted by islamispeace


As it stands, not ONE Christian that has posted on this thread, including yourself, has yet to categorically condemn the baby-killing in the Bible.  You have all tried to dance around the issue, making contradictory statements and hypocritical comparisons.[/quote
How can I condemn or not condemn?  Am I God?  Do I have the mind of God to know all Truth?  If it is of a truth that God ordered it, I am not one to condemn it, and unless God Himself tells me He did not order it I am not one to say anything on the matter.
  [QUOTE=islamispeace]
Yes, God knows best.  And He knows that killing babies is evil.  He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.  He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers. 
Just to make a note... you keep saying babies... I took sucklings to mean baby pigs... so not too sure about that.  And what God knows, God knows, but I certainly do not claim to know all.
 
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 December 2012 at 6:52pm
Greetings islamispeace,
Originally posted by islamispeace


It wasn't Jesus?  Don't you believe Jesus is God?  Does not the Gospel of John state that the "word" was there from the very beginning?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." (John 1:1-2)

"Barnes' Notes on the Bible" explains the meaning of "word":

"This name is given to him who afterward became "flesh," or was incarnate ( http://bible.cc/john/1-14.htm - John 1:14 - that is, to the Messiah. Whatever is meant by it, therefore, is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ." http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/john/1.htm - [1]
I did already explain this.  Jesus is only one aspect of God, conceived of later.  I don't get into arguments trying to explain the Trinity aspect of God since God Himself has to illuminate the mind to understand.  I explain once and then I leave it alone.  I understand that you do not understand, but I would ask you not to not make accusations about me and my understanding and belief.  I do not make accusations of anyone when I do not understand what they believe.  I simply say, I do not believe what you believe, and I do not understand why you believe what you believe.  I only ask the same in return.
Originally posted by islamispeace


Again, you try to change the subject.  First of all, Muslims do not believe that children can be killed.  Allah (swt) never commanded the Muslims to dash babies on rocks.  Who are you to accuse us of defending behavior similar to that of the Israelites? 
Not changing the subject simply saying that Muhammad teaches the same thing as is in the old testament.  It was taught by Muhammad to destroy the unbelievers.  This is no different than what was done to the Canaanites who were not practicing in the way of God... thus were considered unfaithful (i.e., unbelievers).
Again, as in my first post, I question the meaning of the word sucklings.
Originally posted by islamispeace



Second, any Muslim who does think that civilians, especially women and children, can be killed is contradicting the Quran and Sunnah.  Your problem is that your scripture condones the killing of civilians and you cannot bring around to say "Yes, it was wrong.  It was evil.  It could not have been commanded by God".  This is my challenge to you and to all Christians.  Make this statement and your hypocrisy and blasphemy against God will disappear.
I do understand your challenge.  I await the day when all Truth is made known. (for now we see only as in a glass darkly but then we will know in full)  I can not say it was not commanded by God.  But I do understand your problem.  It is the same problem I have with things that were spoken by Muhammad.  And I am sounding like a broken record but... "this is why I follow the new covenant... Jesus... I can find no evil thing in Jesus."
Originally posted by islamispeace


Wow...This excuse can be used to basically justify any type of atrocity.  It is the excuse of someone who knows in the back of their minds that something is wrong or evil. But because of their allegiance or loyalty to an institution, whether it is a religion or a government etc., they cannot actually say it because it would mean turning their backs on that institution.
I have no allegiance to the old covenant.
Originally posted by islamispeace

your response illustrates your blind faith.  You are not open to rational thought on matters pertaining to your religion.  That is why you feel so uncomfortable with this subject. 
I am not uncomfortable at all.  I have acknowledged my doubts if you actually read my posts.  I have told you that I wrestle with God as Jacob wrestled with God... to the point of dislocating a joint.  I argue with God all the time... so no blind faith there, and plenty of rational thought.  I do not fear to wrestle with God.  I know He is a loving Father who would expect nothing less from one to whom He gave free will and determination, and whom He wants to come to Him in full faith with Love, not the faith of babes who are fed on milk but those who are ready for meat.

Originally posted by islamispeace


 by saying you don't "understand" everything, you are deceiving yourself.
By thinking that you have all the answers I'm afraid I would have to say that you are the one who is deceived.  Where is humility?
 
It saddens me that you do not believe in God's love.  I hope one day that you will see it.
 
Originally posted by islamispeace


If He was "hurt" by our rejection of Him, then He would not throw us into hellfire for eternity but instead gently bring us to Him. 
and 'bring us gently to Him' is exactly what He is trying to do.  You have made my point.
 
[edit:  Interestingly this was my verse for the day, just before signing off; 

VERSE OF THE DAY
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. – 2 Peter 3:9

Is that not Love?]
Originally posted by islamispeace


Then He would have made us all believers.  He has that power, does He not?
What meaning does love have if we do not choose it freely?

Originally posted by islamispeace


What "laws" are you referring to?
All the guidance that is given in the old and new testaments.
If you are familiar with them you may know that God in the Bible is often referred to as Wisdom.
 
May peace be upon us all,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 December 2012 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?  It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.

I quoted from both the Quran and the Sunnah.  Do you know their significance?
Yes, I do, that's why I asked if you were quoting the Qur'an when comparing with the Bible scriptures, and if so, which surah's were you quoting?
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?  I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.  But who am I?  Do I have the mind of God?  Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?

And so, using this excuse, you basically wash your hands clean and cast the issue aside. 
How am I casting it aside when I have clearly stated that I am bothered and I see that this could make God look evil?  When I have clearly stated that I understand this is why some people reject all notion of God.  I don't see what there is for you to abhor in that.

Originally posted by islamispeace

no supporting evidence. 
Answered that already. 
 
I will research the rest of what you wrote... the two men... Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab... and get back to you.
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

Regarding the surah's that you quoted;
Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.
 

More vague and ignorant statements.  Care to elaborate?  Many ignorant non-Muslims, who have not even an iota of understanding on the issue of "abrogation", appeal to this phenomenon in order to justify their ignorance and bias.  If you were so interested in it, I would think that you would do research the topic using authentic Islamic sources to gain a thorough understanding of it.  But, no.  You would rather just appeal to your limited knowledge based on reading material from like-minded people and just make absurd  and vague statements.
May I respectfully point out that you have a habit of falsely accusing.  Do you know that it is in the ten commandments that thou shalt not make false accusations?
I have researched thoroughly the subject of abrogation.  I do not make statements without doing research.  I began my study of Islam quite a while ago.  I do not blindly quote what others have said, but rather do a thorough research from many sources.

Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?  Is it from the Qur'an?
You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.


Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but to answer your question, the punishment for cutting off hands is found in the Quran.  It is the punishment for thieves and robbers, although repentance is also accepted:

"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.  But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:38-39)
Thank you.  I appreciate you for answering my question.  What it has to do with is in regard to my original statement that you challenged... that Muhammad revives old testament ways.  This type of thing was prescribed in the old testament.  The difference here seems to be that it is tempered with the teaching that came with the new covenant... the teaching of mercy for repentance. (Again, I would have to research to see if surah 5 was abrogated by a later verse though)
 
As with my last posts.  I will need to stop here and hope to continue later.
Salaam, and a good evening to you, (or a good day, depending on where you live Smile).
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 December 2012 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


You complain of being "confused"?  How so?  What is so confusing? 
I am not confused.  It is the message of Muhammad that is confused.  The confusion is in whether to follow sunna(hadith) or quran, since they are often not in agreement.  The confusion is in sorting out which surah's in the quran are to be followed, which are abrogated.
Why would God be so unclear and confusing in His messsage?

Originally posted by islamispeace


Are you aware that Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged the freeing of slaves and their fair and humane treatment? 
Yes, I am aware of the things you quoted.  Are you aware that anything a slave accumulated in terms of wealth in his lifetime could not be passed on to his children, (even if he was freed, if I am remembering correctly).  How would you feel about that?  How just and humane is it to not be able to give your children a better future?

Originally posted by islamispeace


If you are so interested in the "truth", why not just pick up a copy of the Quran or read it online. 
I have a copy of the Qur'an at home.  I have read it.  I refuse to devote extended time in providing proofs on this forum.  I did in the past and the posts were not allowed to post.  That meant a great deal of my time and energy was wasted.  I won't do that anymore.  I leave others to do their own research.  If they are truly seeking the truth they will.  Thank you for the online link though.
http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php -
Originally posted by islamispeace


Let's see the http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=2 - surah you refer to in the proper context:

"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.  But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (9:3-6)
So basically it says - make a treaty but they know full well the threat when the time for the treaty is up, and if they have not converted by then, kill them.  How is that good?  This makes me think of the child that is told he is going to receive punishment and then must wait for that punishment.  The threat and fear of that punishment is enough to do them in.
I am not sure I get the meaning of the last 2 sentences.  Can one receive asylum without converting?

Originally posted by islamispeace


What is your problem with this surah?  Would you rather that the Muslims just had killed everyone off, you know like...cough...Moses?
  lol - Thanks for making me smile with your *cough.

Originally posted by islamispeace


Do you understand?  Your "New Covenant" which you so proudly speak of will expire.  So, it is irrelevant what the Apostles did or did not do.  As far as they were concerned, when Jesus would come (in their lifetimes as far as they knew), he would start a bloodbath.  You know...murder and mayhem, like the Old Testament ways.
Muhammad spoke to his people in his time.
Moses spoke to his people in his time.
Jesus is a man for all time.
 
I don't know where you keep coming up with this blood bath notion when Jesus returns.  It will not b Jesus killing.  It will be Jesus coming to stop the blood bath of people killing one another.
(But I do not accuse you of making 'assinine', unstudied, unfounded 'claims', do I?)  If this is what you think or believe all I can do is tell you otherwise and you can either believe me or do some research.  It is up to you.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart


I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.


Your Maker gave you an intellect.  If you don't use it, you will have no excuse on the Day you meet him. 
Do you not see that this is exactly what I am telling you?  I use my intellect.  I am not the one following in blind faith.  I am secure in my truth, in my belief, because I seek and thirst after it.  I see that there is no sin, and no thing evil in Jesus.  It is Jesus that can not be denied. 
So I am as sure in my truth as you feel sure about yours.
Still, I know that either of us, or both of us, could be wrong.
I have the humility to see that.
Who will God save?
I think the one with humility and faith. 
"Pride goeth before a fall."
 
Salaam,
CH


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 7:40am
Originally posted by honeto

Bunter, by the way what lessons do you learn from those stories, and who declared that those are not to be followed, and if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands! And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he? Oh my..!Hasan
Some points.
1. No one 'decides', it is just that is the way it is generally interpreted. I might ask you - who interprets the Quran?

2. Any event where judgement occurs is bad and meant to bring us sorrow - unless you are of the persuasion that we should rejoice and be glad when we see someone on their way to hell? How do you feel about the medina massacre by your prophet - do you feel glad about it, do you feel it was a good thing to happen?

3. You are sadly mistaken if you think that because killings occurred in the Bible that they then become a law for all time - that might be the Islamic way, but it is neither Jewish or Christian nor logical.

4. You seem to have a clear view on what is bad, so take a look at Q4:56 and Q18:29 where Allah one presumes burns off skins and then replaces them so they can be burned off again and the only relief from this with water like molten metal thrown in their faces for all eternity - is that good or bad?

If we are to understand each other faith we have to be honest about it.



Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 7:47am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Yes, God knows best.  And He knows that killing babies is evil.  He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.  He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers. 
I think this might be a case of YOU know best. Let me ask you about just two of many such verses in the Quran.

Q4:56 We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the Fire. When their skins have been burned away We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain. God is mighty and wise.

Q18:29 Say, Now the truth has come from your Lord let those who wish to believe in it do so and let those who wish to reject it do so. We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief they will be relieved with water like molten metal scalding their faces. What a terrible drink. What a painfiil resting place.


Now, surely a good God would know that burning off a person's skin and then replacing it to be burned off again with the only relief being water as hot as molten metal thrown in your face for all eternity must be worse thing anyone can think of, to use your words a monstrous crime? How do you feel about the verses, will you rejoice in them, be happy that such punishments exists?


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

Just to make a note... you keep saying babies... I took sucklings to mean baby pigs... so not too sure about that.  And what God knows, God knows, but I certainly do not claim to know all.
 
CH


Oh for the love of God...What do you think we have been talking about all this time?  Did you read the verse that Mahdi mentioned in the opening of this post?

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.

What do you think "infant and suckling" means?  And why are you only now questioning the meaning? 

Do you know what I think?  I think the moral implications of this and other verses is finally dawning on you.  That is why only now you are questioning the meaning of "suckling".  This is progress which I am happy to see.  It is a good first step to seeing the larger picture which is that the verses talking about slaughtering babies are evil and not from God.  The day you realize that will be  day of celebration!


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 12:22pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I did already explain this.  Jesus is only one aspect of God, conceived of later.  I don't get into arguments trying to explain the Trinity aspect of God since God Himself has to illuminat the mind to understand.  I explain once and then I leave it alone.  I understand that you do not understand, but I would ask you not to not make accusations about me and my understanding and belief.  I do not make accusations of anyone when I do not understand what they believe.  I simply say, I do not believe what you believe, and I do not understand why you believe what you believe.  I only ask the same in return.


This is a typical Christian answer.  I gave you solid proof from your own scripture and backed it up with evidence from a Christian commentary that Jesus allegedly existed from the very beginning and your answer was that I will not understand until God "illuminates the mind".  God has already given me a mind and an intellect.  I use it.  Why don't you?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Not changing the subject simply saying that Muhammad teaches the same thing as is in the old testament.  It was taught by Muhammad to destroy the unbelievers.  This is no different than what was done to the Canaanites who were not practicing in the way of God... thus were considered unfaithful (i.e., unbelievers).
Again, as in my first post, I question the meaning of the word sucklings.


You have been refuted on this nonsense on several occasions, yet you continue to persist in your ignorance.  The fact is that even IF Muhammad (pbuh) taught the destruction of the unbelievers (which he didn't and which you have failed to prove), he did not kill off entire cities and nations, unlike the Moses of the Bible.  Therefore, trying to explain away Moses' genocidal actions by diverting to what Muhammad (pbuh) allegedly did is nothing but a desperate attempt to change the subject.  Moreover, who are you to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) when Moses (pbuh) apparently did far worse?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I do understand your challenge.  I await the day when all Truth is made known.  I can not say it was not commanded by God.  But I do understand your problem.  It is the same problem I have with things that were spoken by Muhammad.  And I am sounding like a broken record but... "this is why I follow the new covenant... Jesus... I can find no evil thing in Jesus."


Yes, you do sound like a broken record, but you also sound like a mindless drone who simply can't look at the facts and use her commonsense, which God has given you. 

Anyway, thank you for proving my point.  No Christian will condemn the killing of babies in the Bible, yet these same Christians will hypocritically condemn the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for doing far less!

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have no allegiance to the old covenant.
 

Then you should have no problem saying:

"Yes, it was wrong.  It was evil.  It could not have been commanded by God."

Originally posted by Caringheart

I am not uncomfortable at all.  I have acknowledged my doubts if you actually read my posts.  I have told you that I wrestle with God as Jacob wrestled with God... to the point of dislocating a joint.  I argue with God all the time... so no blind faith there, and plenty of rational thought.  I do not fear to wrestle with God.  I know He is a loving Father who would expect nothing less from one to whom He gave free will and determination, and whom He wants to come to Him in full faith with Love, not the faith of babes who are fed on milk but those who are ready for meat.


Wow...so you "wrestle" with God?  You "argue" with Him?  You are "ready for meat"?  So, you say that God knows best yet you still "argue" with Him.  You really are a walking contradiction, aren't you? 

How about you just realize, using your common sense, that somethings are evil and that God would never order such things?  Case in point: the killing of babies ("sucklings" if you will).  This is a great evil.  Since God is not evil, then God could not have ordered evil things, right? 

Originally posted by Caringheart

By thinking that you have all the answers I'm afraid I would have to say that you are the one who is deceived.  Where is humility?
 
It saddens me that you do not believe in God's love.  I hope one day that you will see it.


When did I say that I have all the answers?  Please keep your "sadness" to yourself.  I don't fall for such false emotions. 

What I said was that God has given us an intellect.  He has given us common sense.  You don't need to have all the answers to realize some basic truths using this intellect and common sense.  Unlike you, I use both instead of just throwing my hands in the air and say "I don't know God's mind.  I will found out when I meet Him."

Here are some basic truths.  Tell me if you agree or disagree:

1.  God is good.

2.  God is not evil.

3.  God commands good.

4.  God does not command evil.

5.  Charity is good.

6.  God commands charity.

7.  Killing babies is evil.

8.  God does not command killing babies.

Originally posted by Caringheart

and 'bring us gently to Him' is exactly what He is trying to do.  You have made my point.
 
[edit:  Interestingly this was my verse for the day, just before signing off; 

VERSE OF THE DAY
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. – 2 Peter 3:9

Is that not Love?]


You completely misunderstood me, as usual.  My point was that He would not throw us into Hellfire for eternity if He loved us and was "hurt" by our rejection of Him.  Instead, when we all go to meet Him, He would simply bring us together to Him in a gentle manner, instead of with fire and brimstone for those who rejected Him.

Originally posted by Caringheart

What meaning does love have if we do not choose it freely?


It would be far better than burning us for eternity!  Where is the love in that?

Originally posted by Caringheart

All the guidance that is given in the old and new testaments.
If you are familiar with them you may know that God in the Bible is often referred to as Wisdom.


Wait a minute.  You just said above that you have no "allegiance" to the "Old Covenant".  Yet here you say that you consider the laws in both the Old Testament and the New Testament to be "guidance".  Contradictions galore...that's all I am getting from you.

Originally posted by Caringheart

May peace be upon us all,
CH


Ameen!  And May Allah (swt) guide us to make the right choices, using the common sense which He has given us.


 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 12:45pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, I do, that's why I asked if you were quoting the Qur'an when comparing with the Bible scriptures, and if so, which surah's were you quoting?


I am not going to repeat myself.  Go back to the old posts and re-read them.  The relevant ayats and hadiths are there.

Originally posted by Caringheart

How am I casting it aside when I have clearly stated that I am bothered and I see that this could make God look evil?  When I have clearly stated that I understand this is why some people reject all notion of God.  I don't see what there is for you to abhor in that.


Because you say "God knows best" instead of "God would not allow such evil".  Therefore, you are casting the issue aside instead of talking the final step.  The line is clearly drawn.  You took one step towards it but you have not yet crossed it. 

I abhor your statement because you cannot find it in yourself to call a spade a spade.  Instead, you say that we will find out when we meet God.  That would be like someone refusing to admit that the Holocaust was evil and instead say that we will find out if it was evil when we meet God, who will set the matter straight.  Every rational and God-fearing person would abhor both statements.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Answered that already. 
 
I will research the rest of what you wrote... the two men... Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab... and get back to you.
  

You answered nothing and you proved nothing, except that you definitely don't have any answers.

Let me enlighten you on Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab.  They were Muhammad's uncles and were among the most vocal and cruelest of his opponents.  Both persecuted Muslims.  In fact, Abu Jahl was the one who martyred Hazrat Sumayyah, the first martyr of Islam.  Of course, both Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab eventually met their doom.  Abu Jahl was killed in the Battle of Badr.  Abu Lahab died of a severe illness.  

Originally posted by Caringheart

May I respectfully point out that you have a habit of falsely accusing.  Do you know that it is in the ten commandments that thou shalt not make false accusations?
I have researched thoroughly the subject of abrogation.  I do not make statements without doing research.  I began my study of Islam quite a while ago.  I do not blindly quote what others have said, but rather do a thorough research from many sources.


Uh-huh, and what sources would those be? 

Originally posted by Caringheart

hank you.  I appreciate you for answering my question.  What it has to do with is in regard to my original statement that you challenged... that Muhammad revives old testament ways.  This type of thing was prescribed in the old testament.  The difference here seems to be that it is tempered with the teaching that came with the new covenant... the teaching of mercy for repentance. (Again, I would have to research to see if surah 5 was abrogated by a later verse though)


You are extremely confused about abrogation.  Let me clear the fog for you.  This verse has not been abrogated and is valid for all times. 

Walaikum as-salaam.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 1:25pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I am not confused.  It is the message of Muhammad that is confused.  The confusion is in whether to follow sunna(hadith) or quran, since they are often not in agreement.  The confusion is in sorting out which surah's in the quran are to be followed, which are abrogated.
Why would God be so unclear and confusing in His messsage?


It is only "unclear" to those who want it to be "unclear".  You are the one who is confused.  More than anything, the issue of abrogation has you confused even more, even though it should not.  It is very clear to those with knowledge. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, I am aware of the things you quoted.  Are you aware that anything a slave accumulated in terms of wealth in his lifetime could not be passed on to his children, (even if he was freed, if I am remembering correctly).  How would you feel about that?  How just and humane is it to not be able to give your children a better future?


Where did you hear this?  Name your source. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have a copy of the Qur'an at home.  I have read it.  I refuse to devote extended time in providing proofs on this forum.  I did in the past and the posts were not allowed to post.  That meant a great deal of my time and energy was wasted.  I won't do that anymore.  I leave others to do their own research.  If they are truly seeking the truth they will.  Thank you for the online link though.


Well then, when you misquoted the Quran on this thread, you were just being purposefully deceptive.  That's quite an improvement from just being ignorant! 

Originally posted by Caringheart

So basically it says - make a treaty but they know full well the threat when the time for the treaty is up, and if they have not converted by then, kill them.  How is that good?  This makes me think of the child that is told he is going to receive punishment and then must wait for that punishment.  The threat and fear of that punishment is enough to do them in.
I am not sure I get the meaning of the last 2 sentences.  Can one receive asylum without converting?


So now, you are having trouble with reading comprehension. 

What the ayats are saying is that Allah and His messenger have dissolved their treaty obligations (the Treaty of Hudaybiyah) with those pagans who broke the treaty.  If you know a little Islamic history, you would know that 2 years into the treaty, the pagans of Mecca ambushed and killed some Muslims.  It was in response to this incident that these verses were revealed.  But the verses added a stipulation that Muhammad (pbuh) was only dissolving treaty obligations with those pagans who had broken the treaty (specifically Abu Sufyan and his allies).  Those pagans who had honored their treaty obligations were not being held responsible. 

So, the "kill them where ever you find them" command is with regard to the pagans who had broken the treaty.  Even then, Allah commanded that if any of the pagans surrendered, they were not to be killed, so that they could hear the Word of Allah. In other words, the Muslims were not allowed to just kill everyone, even the combatants if they surrendered.  Compare this to the Israelites' treatment of the Amalekites, Midianites, Hittites etc., where the command was "kill everyone". 

Who are you indeed to complain?

Originally posted by Caringheart

lol - Thanks for making me smile with your *cough.


I am glad my joke made you smile,  but in all seriousness, you did not answer my question.  Would you rather that the Muslims had just killed everyone off, like Moses (pbuh) allegedly did?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Muhammad spoke to his people in his time.
Moses spoke to his people in his time.
Jesus is a man for all time.


Incorrect.  Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to all mankind and his message is for all times.  Moses and Jesus (pbut) were sent to their own people.  Even the Gospel of Matthew stated that Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the Jews only (Matthew 15:24). 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't know where you keep coming up with this blood bath notion when Jesus returns.  It will not b Jesus killing.  It will be Jesus coming to stop the blood bath of people killing one another.
(But I do not accuse you of making 'assinine', unstudied, unfounded 'claims', do I?)  If this is what you think or believe all I can do is tell you otherwise and you can either believe me or do some research.  It is up to you.


Either you have a short memory or you are just pretending to be, if I may say so, st**id.  I proved, using a Christian commentary, that Luke 19:27 was a prophecy about Jesus' return, when he would condemn all who refused to accept him to death.  Remember the commentary from "Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible"?  Your answer to that was the following:

"I honestly can not understand the 'Gill's exposition'.  If I can find the time and energy to delve into it at another time I will."

Originally posted by Caringheart

Do you not see that this is exactly what I am telling you?  I use my intellect.  I am not the one following in blind faith.  I am secure in my truth, in my belief, because I seek and thirst after it.  I see that there is no sin, and no thing evil in Jesus.  It is Jesus that can not be denied. 
So I am as sure in my truth as you feel sure about yours.
Still, I know that either of us, or both of us, could be wrong.
I have the humility to see that.
Who will God save?
I think the one with humility and faith. 
"Pride goeth before a fall."
 

This "humility" you speak of, that either of us or both of us could be wrong, is not humility.  It is uncertainty.  How can you insist that you use your intellect when you are so unsure?  How can you insist that you are "secure" in your faith yet at the same time think that you could be wrong?  Where is the intellect?

As far as "pride" is concerned, I am "proud" of the intellect my Lord and Sustainer has given me.  I am "proud" to say that I am secure in my faith.  It is inconceivable to me, based on my studies, that Islam is wrong and that there is a possibility that Christianity could be right.  There is nothing wrong with being proud of that.  My Lord has blessed me with common sense.  How can I not be proud of that?  I am also proud to say that I regard the Biblical stories of genocide and baby-killing to be evil and that God could not have been the source of those commandments.

If you want to persist in your uncertainty and refusal to use your common sense, that is your prerogative.  It is your problem.

Walaikum as-salaam. 

 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 8:50pm
Greetings islamispeace,

Thanks for sharing.  My replies will become shorter and shorter so that we do not just keep going over and over the same things. Smile
RE:  "infant and suckling ox and sheep camel and ass"
I'd say that since it goes from talking about humans to animals it could easily mean suckling pig.  It is not precisely clear is it?  It is not only just now dawning on me.  I have read the scripture before.  I took it to mean suckling pig since that is the way pigs were most frequently referred to in the scriptures.


How else will I come to understand God if I do not argue with Him?
Why do you argue with me?  Is it not for better understanding?

But you will not know the truth until you meet your Maker.  That is an absolute truth.  None of us will know of a certainty, the truth, until we meet our Maker.

Are there not some who can not be saved?  Are there not those who in the end satan will win for his own?
Men have free will to choose, and if they do not choose God then God can not save them as His own.  This by no means diminishes the pain of loss.

Let me ask... Do you love your children... assuming that you have any... if not, did your parents love you?  Do you not punish your children... or did your parents punish you?  Is it unloving to do so, or are you trying to assert any means to get your children onto a right path?  Would it be loving to never discipline your children and allow them to go their own way, without warning them that there would be consequences, some which are irreversible?  Would it not hurt to lose them to satan in spite of all your efforts?  Do you see that this can happen?
God gives every chance to choose Him, but if we do not belong to Him can He allow us to enter into heaven, the purest of places?  Can a corrupt thing enter into purity?  Or must a corrupt thing go to be where corruption is.

"Wait a minute.  You just said above that you have no "allegiance" to the "Old Covenant".  Yet here you say that you consider the laws in both the Old Testament and the New Testament to be "guidance".  Contradictions galore...that's all I am getting from you."
This is not a contradiction.  "All scripture is useful for learning."  We learn from the old testament but we live by the new testament.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


So you were not comparing quran with Bible scriptures.

Your comparison with the holocaust is absurd since that was without question the act of a human.

Where did I misquote the quran?


I realized last night that you are probably not aware that alot of what I say comes straight from scripture so I am going to try to go back through my posts so that you will know which statements are not my own but words from God Himself.  It is Job who argues with God and God who admonishes Him... 'Do you have the mind of God, did you create the universe'? [this is my paraphrase]

Sorry, I just do not put the time into these posts that I used to.  As I said, I just don't have the time and energy for it.  I speak from memory.
I come to the forums for conversation, not tit for tat, but an exchange of ideas... a further seeking.  I want to know the minds of people.


As I am reading what you wrote some problems that I have...
1.  there is no clear muslim history... there are differing testimonies of what happened with the treaty between Mecca and Medina.
2.  why do you insist on comparisons?  How is it beneficial?


Sorry, but no, you have proved nothing to me, any more than I have 'proved' anything to you.  You share with me what you believe, I do my own research into what you say, and reach my own conclusions.  I think I have done more thorough research than you have.  I think you speak from what you have been taught.  I could be wrong though.
Do you ever look into the things that others share with you?  I do.


Now as far as belief goes...

I don't think that I could be wrong...
I know that I could be wrong...
that's why it's called Faith.  Smile

“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?”
"Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?”

(these are spoken in Isaiah, Job, Jeremiah)

Do we then, place ourselves higher than God in understanding?  It is arrogance to say that we know, without question, the mind of God.  How do you think God will look upon this arrogance come judgement day?

I am curious, can you tell me what the quran teaches about pride?

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 11:23am
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by honeto

Bunter, by the way what lessons do you learn from those stories, and who declared that those are not to be followed, and if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands! And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he? Oh my..!Hasan
Some points.
1. No one 'decides', it is just that is the way it is generally interpreted. I might ask you - who interprets the Quran?

2. Any event where judgement occurs is bad and meant to bring us sorrow - unless you are of the persuasion that we should rejoice and be glad when we see someone on their way to hell? How do you feel about the medina massacre by your prophet - do you feel glad about it, do you feel it was a good thing to happen?

3. You are sadly mistaken if you think that because killings occurred in the Bible that they then become a law for all time - that might be the Islamic way, but it is neither Jewish or Christian nor logical.

4. You seem to have a clear view on what is bad, so take a look at Q4:56 and Q18:29 where Allah one presumes burns off skins and then replaces them so they can be burned off again and the only relief from this with water like molten metal thrown in their faces for all eternity - is that good or bad?

If we are to understand each other faith we have to be honest about it.


bunter,
and that's where you lack, honesty.
Of course the punishment of hell is real, and there is no doubt about it. How it is described is to be taken as such.
But, if you missed that's not we are talking about, we are talking about God of OT and God of NT, they not only seem to be different, they seem to be sky a part, the difference between night and day. I am told by Christians that "God is love", like a parrot they repeat it, when asked to differentiate they cannot.
You understand what we are talking about and I know your actual position, you just cannot defend it, so you try to your best to distract.
Please go back and read my pearlier posts and try to address the issue with your Bible, if you have issues with Islam or Quran put them up in their appropriate thread, don't make them escape goats here.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 11:41am
Carinheart,
it is very clear according to the way it is written what it means. Don't try to change that as you wish to see it any other way.
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
I have never heard of animal babies addressed as infants have you?
Here is a similar example from the Bible, Moses is suppose to be narrator of this one!
Deut :2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

Boy, many wish if they could see a rewriting of the Bible again!
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 4:32pm
Greetings Hasan,
"man, woman, infant..."
gotcha.  Thanks.  I guess I just got hung up because islamispeace kept referring to 'sucklings'.
Yes.  God did say to destroy them all.  I did know that.  That is why I shared that I do not know of anyone who follows Jesus who does not have difficulty with the things that went on in old testament times, and that is why they do not follow the old covenant, but the new one... Jesus.
Salaam,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by bunter

I think this might be a case of YOU know best. Let me ask you about just two of many such verses in the Quran.

Q4:56 We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the Fire. When their skins have been burned away We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain. God is mighty and wise.

Q18:29 Say, Now the truth has come from your Lord let those who wish to believe in it do so and let those who wish to reject it do so. We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief they will be relieved with water like molten metal scalding their faces. What a terrible drink. What a painfiil resting place.


Now, surely a good God would know that burning off a person's skin and then replacing it to be burned off again with the only relief being water as hot as molten metal thrown in your face for all eternity must be worse thing anyone can think of, to use your words a monstrous crime? How do you feel about the verses, will you rejoice in them, be happy that such punishments exists?


This is the best you guys can do.  Try to change the topic and talk about something completely unrelated.  What on earth does the punishment of Hellfire for those who deserve it due to the conscious choice they made have to do with killing babies, who represent everything that is innocent?  Do you realize how desperate you sound in trying to justify what any rational, God-fearing person would rightfully denounce as pure evil? 

Why is it so hard for you to denounce evil?  Let me submit to you the same statements I posed to Caringheart.  Let me know if you agree or disagree:

1.  God is good.

2.  God is not evil.

3.  God commands good.

4.  God does not command evil.

5.  Charity is good.

6.  God commands charity.

7.  Killing babies is evil.

8.  God does not command killing babies.


This is not a brain-teaser.  These statements are not philosophical dilemmas.  They are not even moral dilemmas...at least not to normal, rational people.  I guess that does not include you guys.   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 8:00pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Caringheart, it seems you are getting desperate in continuing to justify your refusal to denounce evil, so you are now refusing to respond to all my points, and instead making excuses.  I think you are planning to make a break for it and quietly bow out of this discussion.  However, I will still respond to all your points, because that's the kind of guy I am!

Originally posted by Caringheart

Thanks for sharing.  My replies will become shorter and shorter so that we do not just keep going over and over the same things. Smile


Yep, that's the typical last resort of aperson left with no more excuses and no more logical arguments.  Big%20smile

Originally posted by Caringheart

RE:  "infant and suckling ox and sheep camel and ass"
I'd say that since it goes from talking about humans to animals it could easily mean suckling pig.  It is not precisely clear is it?  It is not only just now dawning on me.  I have read the scripture before.  I took it to mean suckling pig since that is the way pigs were most frequently referred to in the scriptures.


I'd say you have run out of excuses and are finding it increasingly difficult to defend the Biblical slaughter of babies.  No, they were not "suckling pigs".  That's a new one to me!  Brother Hasan has already refuted this nonsensical statement.  Allow me to refute it further.  Here are some more verses which prove without a doubt that the command was to kill all humans (in all cases) and animals (in some cases):

When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34) - Notice here that the animals were not killed but instead taken as plunder!

He also put to the sword Nob, the town of the priests, with its men and women, its children and infants, and its cattle, donkeys and sheep. (1 Samuel 22:19) - Now here, everything living things was killed.  Notice that the children and infants of Nob were among those killed! 

Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us.  Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalm 137:8-9) - Even you should see that this lovely psalm is not talking about dashing suckling pigs on rocks (as inhumane as that would be)!

It keeps getting worse for you, doesn't it?  That is what happens when people lie to others and to themselves.  As the Blue Fairy said to Pinocchio:

"A lie keeps growing and growing until it's as plain as the nose on your face."

How long will you keep lying to yourself?

Originally posted by Caringheart

How else will I come to understand God if I do not argue with Him?
Why do you argue with me?  Is it not for better understanding?


Tell me, in your scintillating "arguments" with God, does He answer you back?  Are you sure you are not just arguing with yourself?

A true believer, a man/woman of faith, does not "argue" with God.  We accept God's will, even if we don't understand it.  However, God has taught us that He loves good and despises evil.  He has also given us the criteria to distinguish between good and evil, so that we can identify what is God's will and what is not His will, but the will of men.  Charity is the will of God.  Selfishness is not.  Protecting the innocent is God's will.  Killing them is not.  Do you see the difference?  You don't need to argue with God about something that does not need arguing.  Moreover, you should not be arguing with Him in the first place!  Who are you to argue with the Lord and Master of the Universe?  Talk about pride!

Originally posted by Caringheart

But you will not know the truth until you meet your Maker.  That is an absolute truth.  None of us will know of a certainty, the truth, until we meet our Maker.
 

We will not know the truth of every matter until we meet God.  I wonder how big the universes is.  I don't anyone will ever know.  But, I hope to find out when I meet God. 

However, there are some truths that we already know.  We know that God is One.  Do you agree?  We know that giving charity is good.  Do you agree?

Similarly, we know that some things are evil.  The Holocaust was evil.  Do you agree?  Killing babies is evil.  Do you...well you know.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Are there not some who can not be saved?  Are there not those who in the end satan will win for his own?
Men have free will to choose, and if they do not choose God then God can not save them as His own.  This by no means diminishes the pain of loss.
 

It seems that God is simply choosing not to save them, even though He easily could.  To argue that He would feel pain for something He could stop in an instant is absurd.  If He knew from the very beginning that so many would reject Him, why did He create us?  Wouldn't it have been better if He simply had not created those who would become sinners and end up in Hell?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Let me ask... Do you love your children... assuming that you have any... if not, did your parents love you?  Do you not punish your children... or did your parents punish you?  Is it unloving to do so, or are you trying to assert any means to get your children onto a right path?  Would it be loving to never discipline your children and allow them to go their own way, without warning them that there would be consequences, some which are irreversible?  Would it not hurt to lose them to satan in spite of all your efforts?  Do you see that this can happen?
God gives every chance to choose Him, but if we do not belong to Him can He allow us to enter into heaven, the purest of places?  Can a corrupt thing enter into purity?  Or must a corrupt thing go to be where corruption is.


Do you think before you come up with these ridiculous analogies?  Disciplining one's children (I don't have kids by the way) is a far cry from the eternal torment all sinners will face in the Hell.  The purpose of discipline is to get children on the right path, but it is by no means continuous and unending.  What parent would keep their child in unending torment?  I certainly hope you don't put your absurd analogy to practice, assuming you have children.

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is not a contradiction.  "All scripture is useful for learning."  We learn from the old testament but we live by the new testament.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


It is a contradiction because on the one hand you say that you owe no allegiance to the "Old Covenant", but then you say that you receive guidance from both the Old and New Covenants. 

If I am not loyal to my country, then how could I learn or receive any guidance from it? 

Originally posted by Caringheart

So you were not comparing quran with Bible scriptures.
 

Do you know how to read?  I compared the bible with the two central sources of Islamic beliefs, the Quran and the Sunnah. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Your comparison with the holocaust is absurd since that was without question the act of a human.


Wrong.  It was the act of a human who believed he was doing God's work!  Hitler was convinced that he had a divine mission.  That is not much different from what you believe about Moses and his successors.  According to you, they were simply doing God's Will.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Where did I misquote the quran?


Here is one example. You said in one of your posts:

"And the quran instructs to smite the necks of all unbelievers(anyone who will not take the shahada, anyone who does not believe in Muhammad, even though they believe in the One God), this is no different that the Israelites being commanded to kill all the Canaanites, classifying them all as pagan idolators(i.e., as evil people)... same thing.  Islam views anyone non-muslim the same way the Israelites were told to treat the Canaanites.  Old covenant ways vs. new covenant ways.  Islam ignores the 'new thing' which God brought."

I refuted this misquote by showing what the Quran actually says, which is:

"Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost." (47:4)

Conclusion: You misquoted, either deliberately or due to your ignorance, the Quran.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I realized last night that you are probably not aware that alot of what I say comes straight from scripture so I am going to try to go back through my posts so that you will know which statements are not my own but words from God Himself.  It is Job who argues with God and God who admonishes Him... 'Do you have the mind of God, did you create the universe'? [this is my paraphrase]


I could care less what your "scripture" says.  I don't regard those books as being "scripture".  I certainly don't regard the verses talking about slaughtering babies to be "scripture".

Moreover, if what you say about Job is true, then it only proves my point about your blasphemous claim that you "argue" with God.  If Job was admonished for arguing with God, who are you to argue with Him?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Sorry, I just do not put the time into these posts that I used to.  As I said, I just don't have the time and energy for it.  I speak from memory.
I come to the forums for conversation, not tit for tat, but an exchange of ideas... a further seeking.  I want to know the minds of people.
 

Unfortunately, I already know what's in your mind, and I don't like it!

Originally posted by Caringheart

As I am reading what you wrote some problems that I have...
1.  there is no clear muslim history... there are differing testimonies of what happened with the treaty between Mecca and Medina.
2.  why do you insist on comparisons?  How is it beneficial?


1.  More vague claims with no supporting evidence.
2.  It helps us to distinguish between the truth and falsehood, between good and evil and between the Word of God and the word of man.  I'd say that is immensely beneficial!

Originally posted by Caringheart

Sorry, but no, you have proved nothing to me, any more than I have 'proved' anything to you.  You share with me what you believe, I do my own research into what you say, and reach my own conclusions.  I think I have done more thorough research than you have.  I think you speak from what you have been taught.  I could be wrong though.
Do you ever look into the things that others share with you?  I do.
 

Your views and opinions mean nothing to me.  My hope is that other people who read these posts will benefit.  When I talk with people like you, it is with the understanding that 99% of the time, you will refuse to acknowledge the facts.  I still talk, however, so that others who may be more open to the facts will benefit from reading our conversations, inshaAllah.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Now as far as belief goes...

I don't think that I could be wrong...
I know that I could be wrong...
that's why it's called Faith.  Smile


Actually, that is called Blind Faith.  Wink

Originally posted by Caringheart

“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?”
"Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?”

(these are spoken in Isaiah, Job, Jeremiah)


"And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright." (2:53)

"O ye who believe! if ye fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded. " (8:29)

"Behold this is the Word that distinguishes (Good from Evil): It is not a thing for amusement." (17:13-14)

"Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (41:34)


These are spoken by God in the Quran.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Do we then, place ourselves higher than God in understanding?  It is arrogance to say that we know, without question, the mind of God.  How do you think God will look upon this arrogance come judgement day?


He will not look upon it as "arrogance" but as rationality, inshaAllah.  He will commend us for using our common sense, which He gave us, inshaAllah.  And He will reward us for using His Word to distinguish between good and evil, inshaAllah.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I am curious, can you tell me what the quran teaches about pride?


"
Is then the man who believes no better than the man who is rebellious and wicked? Not equal are they." (32:18)

"They say, "If we return to Medina, surely the more honourable (element) will expel therefrom the meaner." But honour belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and to the Believers; but the Hypocrites know not." (63:8)


I am proud of my faith in Allah (swt).  There is nothing wrong with that.  In fact, being timid about my faith would be wrong.  It is only in worldly matters that pride is a sin.  Hence, pride in one's wealth, family or influence is sinful.   

 



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 8:08pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I think the point Bunter is making is that if you wish to call God of the old testament evil for the things that are in the old testament, all you have to do is look to your own scriptures to find an evil God.

Do you believe in the surah's which Bunter quoted?
Do these things sound like things of a good and loving, merciful God, to you?
Don't they sound a bit like the God of the old testament?

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 9:41pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I accept God's will.  This does not mean I can not argue with Him about it when I don't understand. 
Job argued with God and so did Jacob, so did the prophets.

I believe that God is one.  Do I know it of a certainty?  Could I end up being wrong?  Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?  Of course it could.  Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?  For me, yes, He does.

I understand why you say what you are saying about evil.  Thank God it is in the past, the things that were done during the old testament, and thank God we have the new testament.

Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?  Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?

When, and if, you become a parent, you will understand that sometimes they can not be saved.  It is not the parent that condemns them, but themselves, if they will not see light.  Sometimes there is nothing a parent can do.  God allows His children to choose.  They must choose.  It is the only way.  There is no purification if they do not choose the way themselves. 
So you do not have children.  Try to apply the analogy then to yourself and your own parents.  Can you see that your own disobedience could separate you from your parents, and that if there is no repentance that separation could be permanent?
You think this does not pain God to be separated from His creation.  I think it pains Him greatly and this is why He sent His Word to us to try and save us.  'He wants all to come to the Word and be saved.'  He wants us all to come home.

"If I am not loyal to my country, then how could I learn or receive any guidance from it?"
How do I explain this...
Let's see... How about the United States had a terrible time in its history when they bought, sold, and owned people as slaves.  Do we not learn from the history that this is a terrible thing?  So I would not choose to be loyal to reestablishing such a system.  Yet there was still much wisdom in many of the other things which the United States did correctly... like abolishing slavery.
Or how about a man named Constantinople came to power and adopted Christianity as his religion and then set out to make that the religion of any nation which he ruled.  Do we not learn from that history, that it was wrong?  Yet here too, there were surely things gained that were good.
How about the Ottoman empire.  Was it established rightly?  And yet, there was good that came out of that too.
There is wisdom in all things, that we learn from the ancient generations.  Wisdom of ages.

I don't feel like going back to it, but if I did... if you will... you will see that you compared Bible scriptures with sunna, not Qur'an.

Not much different than what you believe about Muhammad either.

Ok, this was as I thought.  I was not quoting the qur'an... so not a deliberate misquote as you say.  I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me.  People must declare belief not just in the one God but also in Muhammad or be considered an enemy of God... a disbeliever... in which case you are instructed to smite their neck as an enemy. (or subjugate them as a second class citizen)

I know how you feel about the scripture.  What I am pointing out is that the words I use are not my own but the Lords, whether you believe or not.  The point was that you wish to say I am making excuses.  I am not making excuses.  I am following the Word of my Lord.  Maybe not your Lord, but mine.  However I believe your prophet told you that God had spoken to the people of the book and if you were ever in doubt about the scriptures you were to consult them.  I speak that Word.

If you doubt my word about Job why do you not read the book of Job, as I read the Qur'an and the hadith when I am in doubt.  Do your own research.  Don't take my word.  You must read the book of Job to understand the relationship he had with God.  He learned from arguing with God.  Just as a child learns from arguing with its parent.

Vague claims? - easily backed up with a little research on your part.
Actually I think being compeled to look for divisions and strife, rather than unity, is where the evil lies.

"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me."
Thanks for showing your respect.


Blind faith(and pride) is having the arrogance to think you have all the answers, and refusing to have the humility to accept that someone else may just be right, and you may be wrong.  I am not blind to the fact that we could all be wrong.

 Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated

No religious claim can be proven, or substantiated, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  This is why we must accept the beliefs of others... because it is just that... belief.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Hasan,"man, woman, infant..."gotcha.  Thanks.  I guess I just got hung up because islamispeace kept referring to 'sucklings'.Yes.  God did say to destroy them all.  I did know that.  That is why I shared that I do not know of anyone who follows Jesus who does not have difficulty with the things that went on in old testament times, and that is why they do not follow the old covenant, but the new one... Jesus.Salaam,CH




CAringheart,
...because I see and believe that people naturally have common sense and this God given natural ability to distinguish between right and wrong works if put to work, with some guidance from above.
The Bible, both OT and NT has been together for over a thousand years I guess, taught as revelation from same God. It is difficult for anyone with logic and reason to accept when we are told that the source of OT and NT is the same God.
It does not match it does not fit. On top of that, we see verse quoted to Jesus, saying that every bit of the law (contained in the OT) has to be fulfilled while others claim that Jesus came to do away with it, a true dilemma but not the only issue between the two (OT and NT)
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 3:58pm

for Hasan,

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[for clarification I would add here not so much that people are liars as in a deliberate act, so much as they may be self deceived.  They may think they belong to God but if they are not keeping His commandments then they do not belong to God no matter how much they may think that they do.  There are many who are blind to this Truth.]

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

8 But, a new commandment which I do write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.  (1 John 2)

_____________________

There was the physical law - the law of rituals
and the spiritual law
If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.
Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.  He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.  He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.
If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.

This is why it is so important to know all of the scriptures and not just part.  Full understanding can not come unless you know the whole of scripture.

Salaam.



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

I think the point Bunter is making is that if you wish to call God of the old testament evil for the things that are in the old testament, all you have to do is look to your own scriptures to find an evil God.

Do you believe in the surah's which Bunter quoted?
Do these things sound like things of a good and loving, merciful God, to you?
Don't they sound a bit like the God of the old testament?

Salaam,
CH


What Bunter was trying to do, like you, was to try to change the subject and move away from the uncomfortable topic of Biblically-sanctioned genocide.  Moreover, comparing the killing of babies to the punishment of sinners who had every chance to repent and mend their ways is laughably absurd.  In fact, I would think that baby-killers would be among the eternally damned!  Punishing such people is not "evil".  It is justice.  On the other hand, killing children and infants is nothing but pure evil.  There is no logical way to justify such evil. 

By the way, the Jesus of the "New Covenant" promises eternal damnation to unbelievers as well.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart



Greetings islamispeace,I think the point Bunter is making is that if you wish to call God of the old testament evil for the things that are in the old testament, all you have to do is look to your own scriptures to find an evil God.Do you believe in the surah's which Bunter quoted?Do these things sound like things of a good and loving, merciful God, to you?Don't they sound a bit like the God of the old testament?Salaam,CH
What Bunter was trying to do, like you, was to try to change the subject and move away from the uncomfortable topic of Biblically-sanctioned genocide.  Moreover, comparing the killing of babies to the punishment of sinners who had every chance to repent and mend their ways is laughably absurd.  In fact, I would think that baby-killers would be among the eternally damned!  Punishing such people is not "evil".  It is justice.  On the other hand, killing children and infants is nothing but pure evil.  There is no logical way to justify such evil.  By the way, the Jesus of the "New Covenant" promises eternal damnation to unbelievers as well.

could not have said it any better myself. i hope they will take time to think and understand.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by bunter

I think this might be a case of YOU know best. Let me ask you about just two of many such verses in the Quran.

Q4:56 We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the Fire. When their skins have been burned away We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain. God is mighty and wise.

Q18:29 Say, Now the truth has come from your Lord let those who wish to believe in it do so and let those who wish to reject it do so. We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief they will be relieved with water like molten metal scalding their faces. What a terrible drink. What a painfiil resting place.


Now, surely a good God would know that burning off a person's skin and then replacing it to be burned off again with the only relief being water as hot as molten metal thrown in your face for all eternity must be worse thing anyone can think of, to use your words a monstrous crime? How do you feel about the verses, will you rejoice in them, be happy that such punishments exists?
This is the best you guys can do.  Try to change the topic and talk about something completely unrelated.  What on earth does the punishment of Hellfire for those who deserve it due to the conscious choice they made have to do with killing babies, who represent everything that is innocent?  Do you realize how desperate you sound in trying to justify what any rational, God-fearing person would rightfully denounce as pure evil?  Why is it so hard for you to denounce evil?  Let me submit to you the same statements I posed to Caringheart.  Let me know if you agree or disagree:1.  God is good.2.  God is not evil.3.  God commands good.4.  God does not command evil.5.  Charity is good.6.  God commands charity.7.  Killing babies is evil.8.  God does not command killing babies.This is not a brain-teaser.  These statements are not philosophical dilemmas.  They are not even moral dilemmas...at least not to normal, rational people.  I guess that does not include you guys.   



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:57pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I accept God's will.  This does not mean I can not argue with Him about it when I don't understand. 
Job argued with God and so did Jacob, so did the prophets.


You are nothing more than contradiction personified.  It seems your entire spiritual life is struggling to find its way through a maze of circular logic. 

One can't accept God's Will, yet "argue" with Him at the same time.  You either accept His Will, even if you don't understand it, or you don't.  The best of us, i.e. the prophets, were patient in adversity.  Job (pbuh) was one of the most patient.  In his adversity, he prayed to God to have mercy on him.  He did not complain nor did he "argue".  The Quran states this clearly:

"And (remember) Job, when He cried to his Lord, "Truly distress has seized me, but Thou art the Most Merciful of those that are merciful."  So We listened to him: We removed the distress that was on him, and We restored his people to him, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Ourselves, and a thing for commemoration, for all who serve Us." (21:83-84)


Originally posted by Caringheart

I believe that God is one.  Do I know it of a certainty?  Could I end up being wrong?  Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?  Of course it could.  Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?  For me, yes, He does.
 

More contradictions.  You believe that you "could" be wrong, yet you say that Jesus' appearance "confirms the stories"!  If the stories are "confirmed", then how can you still insist that you still "could" be wrong? 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I understand why you say what you are saying about evil.  Thank God it is in the past, the things that were done during the old testament, and thank God we have the new testament.


So, your excuse is "well, it was in the past".  "What's done is done".  Right?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?  Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?
 

What the heck does that have to do with the Bible's claim that God (and NOT Satan) commanded the Israelites to kill infants and children? 

Do I believe that Satan has corrupted mankind?  Yes, of course.  That explains why the Bible dares implicate the just and good Creator of the universe with pure evil.  In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact.

Originally posted by Caringheart

When, and if, you become a parent, you will understand that sometimes they can not be saved.  It is not the parent that condemns them, but themselves, if they will not see light.  Sometimes there is nothing a parent can do.  God allows His children to choose.  They must choose.  It is the only way.  There is no purification if they do not choose the way themselves.


None of this explains why, if God "loved" all of us as a "father", He would not throw us into Hell to burn forever.  You tried to compare this to parents who discipline their children, but no parent would think of being the cause of the unending torment of their children. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

So you do not have children.  Try to apply the analogy then to yourself and your own parents.  Can you see that your own disobedience could separate you from your parents, and that if there is no repentance that separation could be permanent?
   

Your analogies are nonsense.  They are devoid of any logic.  You are trying to justify why a "loving" God would punish His "children" for eternity by comparing this to a parent who punishes his/her children.  There is no comparison.  If a child grows up to be evil, he/she will pay the consequences and the parents may feel mental anguish, but that has nothing to do with God, who is our Creator and Judge, and His relationship to sinners.  We are not His "children" in the sense that I am the son of my parents or you are the daughter of your parents. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You think this does not pain God to be separated from His creation.  I think it pains Him greatly and this is why He sent His Word to us to try and save us.  'He wants all to come to the Word and be saved.'  He wants us all to come home.


Well, of course He wants us to be saved!  But the fact remains that if He loved everyone, including the sinners which He will burn for eternity, then there would be no such place as Hell.

Originally posted by Caringheart

How do I explain this...
Let's see... How about the United States had a terrible time in its history when they bought, sold, and owned people as slaves.  Do we not learn from the history that this is a terrible thing?  So I would not choose to be loyal to reestablishing such a system.  Yet there was still much wisdom in many of the other things which the United States did correctly... like abolishing slavery.
Or how about a man named Constantinople came to power and adopted Christianity as his religion and then set out to make that the religion of any nation which he ruled.  Do we not learn from that history, that it was wrong?  Yet here too, there were surely things gained that were good.
How about the Ottoman empire.  Was it established rightly?  And yet, there was good that came out of that too.
There is wisdom in all things, that we learn from the ancient generations.  Wisdom of ages.
 

You gain "wisdom" from the wise.  Similarly, you gain "guidance" from those are guided.  One cannot be loyal to something and yet still expect wisdom or guidance from it.  That makes no sense.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't feel like going back to it, but if I did... if you will... you will see that you compared Bible scriptures with sunna, not Qur'an.


As I have said before, you know nothing about Islam.  You know nothing about the Quran except the lies you have heard from like-minded sources, and you know even less about the Sunnah.  If you are too lazy to go back to the previous posts, that is your problem.  I quoted from both the Quran and Sunnah. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Not much different than what you believe about Muhammad either.

Ok, this was as I thought.  I was not quoting the qur'an... so not a deliberate misquote as you say.  I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me.  People must declare belief not just in the one God but also in Muhammad or be considered an enemy of God... a disbeliever... in which case you are instructed to smite their neck as an enemy. (or subjugate them as a second class citizen)


Then you are just a lazy person.  You say you have a copy of the Quran at home, yet instead of actually finding the verse you had in mind, you lazily tried to paraphrase it and failed miserably. 

So, what's your excuse now?  Despite having been shown the actual verse, you insist on your preconceived view.  This is the mark of a blind fool.  You are lying only to yourself by persisting in your ignorance and refusal to acknowledge the facts. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I know how you feel about the scripture.  What I am pointing out is that the words I use are not my own but the Lords, whether you believe or not.  The point was that you wish to say I am making excuses.  I am not making excuses.  I am following the Word of my Lord.  Maybe not your Lord, but mine.


This shows that you are blind.  You have confused the word of man with the Word of God. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

However I believe your prophet told you that God had spoken to the people of the book and if you were ever in doubt about the scriptures you were to consult them.  I speak that Word.
 

More misquotes of the Quran.  The only explanation now is that you are not lazy; you are just a liar.  Good improvement!

Here is what the Quran actually says:

"We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.  If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt." (10:93-94)

As you can see, the verses were simply saying that if any Muslims have any doubt about the many blessings God poured upon the Jews, that they should ask the Jews themselves.  The Quran was not suggesting that Muslims should consult the Jews or Christians about scripture. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

f you doubt my word about Job why do you not read the book of Job, as I read the Qur'an and the hadith when I am in doubt.  Do your own research.  Don't take my word.  You must read the book of Job to understand the relationship he had with God.  He learned from arguing with God.  Just as a child learns from arguing with its parent.


Why should I read to double check your claims about your own scripture?  Don't you know your own scripture?  You made claim about it, so be ready to support it.  My point was that if you were right about Job's complaints against God and his subsequent admonition, it proves you wrong that a true believer can "argue" with God.  I was going by what you said.    

By the way, I don't rely on your "research" on Islam.  You would be the last source I would consult.  I consult sources which give...you know...facts.  Do you know what those are?   

Originally posted by Caringheart

Vague claims? - easily backed up with a little research on your part.
Actually I think being compeled to look for divisions and strife, rather than unity, is where the evil lies.


You really are lazy.  You made the claim!  You need to back it up!  Why would I waste my time going on a wild goose chase?  In a discussion, it is typical for both sides to provide evidence for their claims.  Otherwise, the discussion will go nowhere.  You made a claim, so now back it up.  Without evidence, you are just wasting people's time and as a result, no one will take you seriously.  So, show a little backbone and support your empty, vague claims with a little thing called evidence!

Originally posted by Caringheart

Thanks for showing your respect.
 

Get over it.  I am not interested in people's personal opinions.  I am interested in facts, knowledge and truth.  If I wanted to hear mindless droning, I would befriend an air conditioner.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Blind faith(and pride) is having the arrogance to think you have all the answers, and refusing to have the humility to accept that someone else may just be right, and you may be wrong.  I am not blind to the fact that we could all be wrong.
 

Again, when did I say that I have all the answers?  Prove me wrong for once. 

I have said that some answers are already in front of us.  They can be found by using one's God-given intellect and common sense.  Obviously, you don't use yours too often, at least in matters pertaining to your religion.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated
 

"Killing babies is evil."  You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?  I don't know whether to laugh or scream!  Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.  It's really weird.

Originally posted by Caringheart

No religious claim can be proven, or substantiated, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  This is why we must accept the beliefs of others... because it is just that... belief.


The central theme of this thread is not a "religious claim".  Let me just say this loud and clear: Any person who refuses to admit that killing infants and children is evil is evil as well.

Take that any way you want. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 December 2012 at 6:58pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I respect your opinion.  I hope you can respect that my position and my experience is different from yours.
I understand, you do not feel safe to argue with God.  I on the other hand feel perfectly safe in doing so.
My God is a loving Father who gave me a mind and a free will, and one who understands and does not expect me to be without questions.  How could I not have questions when the mind of God is so much greater than my own?

Re:
"I believe that God is one.  Do I know it of a certainty?  Could I end up being wrong?  Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?  Of course it could.  Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?  For me, yes, He does."
It's all about belief.  Isn't that what I have been saying all along?

You said;
"In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."
Since you are allowed to say this then I should also be allowed to say the following...
that I believe that the word given to Muhammad is a deception of satan.

I'm sorry that you do not understand the things I write and that you get them twisted.  I don't imagine going over and over it will help.
I am discussing not a parent punishing their children but a parent losing their children and that, that causes pain.  Just as when God loses His 'children', His creation, it causes Him pain.  We are His children, even more so than our own human children are our children, because He created us, all of us.  That makes all of us His children... His creation.  Without God there are no children.

"One cannot be loyal to something and yet still expect wisdom or guidance from it. "
Have you never heard of learning from mistakes?  It is said that a truly wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
" A fool learns from his own mistakes, A wise man learns from the mistakes of others"
The old testament shows us all the mistakes made by God's people, though we are not bound to living any longer by old testament ways.

What I know of the Qur'an is what I get from reading it myself.  Unlike you suggest, I have not been told any 'lies' about the Qur'an.  Perhaps you go by what you are told.  I investigate for myself.

"I quoted from both the Quran and Sunnah."
Not in the instance I am referring to.  Are you too lazy to go back and see for yourself?  or afraid to admit that I am correct?  It's ok, it doesn't matter.  My question was answered and that is all that matters.

I obviously do not fail in, as you say, 'my paraphrasing' because you knew exactly what surah I was referring to.  However I was not paraphrasing,
"I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me."   There is a difference.  I am telling you what it says to me.  If you tell me that it means something different to you, that is good.  I am then encouraged.

You feel free to challenge my scriptures, I also say to you, I feel that it is you who follow the word of a man and not God.  Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?

I love the way you can throw insults at a person just for having a conversation, calling them lazy and liar just because you do not like the things they say.  I am not lazy but I am having a conversation, not a classroom debate and not looking for a grade.  I am sharing in conversation.  You are free to disagree.  I disagree with you plenty but I do not feel the need to insult you, your character, your integrity, or your beliefs.

The surah we are discussing...
It doesn't refer to asking about the blessings given...
It refers to "those who have been reading the Book from before thee" ... what those before thee have read in the Book... those who have had the Word of God before thee.

"You made claim about it, so be ready to support it."
My word means nothing to you so you must seek for yourself.  I will share with you what I know, then it is up to you to verify it to your own satisfaction.  We come here to learn.  Learning takes place by investigating for ones self what others have to say.

"I consult sources which give...you know...facts."
Are you also aware of how convoluted the 'facts' are in some sources... Egyptian textbooks for instance... How about those that teach that Jews require blood to make matzo... what about those 'facts' that have been believed by many?  Do you seek facts from sources on both sides of the argument?  I do.  (By the way, that is the definition of not being lazy)

"I am not interested in people's personal opinions."
This is the face of Islam that you present to the world.  It is not a good face and you wonder why people do not see good in Islam?

"when did I say that I have all the answers?"
Here are a few instances:
"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me.  My hope is that other people who read these posts will benefit.  When I talk with people like you, it is with the understanding that 99% of the time, you will refuse to acknowledge the facts."
Your facts.  You have all the answers, and could not possibly be wrong.

"Unfortunately, I already know what's in your mind, and I don't like it!"
You know what is in my mind, and of course you could not be wrong.

and you are absolutely certain, with proof, beyond even the shadow of a doubt, that your beliefs could not be wrong, even though they are just that... beliefs.


You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...
Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated
blind faith would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)
However I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.

"Let me just say this loud and clear: Any person who refuses to admit that killing infants and children is evil is evil as well."
And you say that you do not argue with God.  If God indeed ordered it, then you are arguing with God.  By not believing God ordered it, you may very well be arguing with God.
You do argue with God.  It's just you have more trust in your own wisdom.
I am not afraid to say that I argue with God.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 December 2012 at 7:34pm
also for Hasan,

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.  - the words of Jesus (book of Matthew)


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 December 2012 at 7:39pm
for islamispeace,

RE:  humility

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. - a parable of Jesus (book of Luke)

and love;

Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave the most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. - the words of Jesus (book of Luke)



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 12:08pm
Hi Islam

(Sorry to have missed your busy weekend but this is to continue from the top of Page 3):
This was my response to Honeto when he said, Quote: “so according to your book, God ordered killings of man and women who do not believe as you do.”

Correction: --- According to our Book, the New Testament, --- God didn’t order any killings of anyone. --- We refer to the OT, but we are under a new “Code” of --- Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. --- Which fulfills the Ten Commandments, and the prophecy of a “New Covenant” in Jeremiah 31, --- and the fulfillment in Hebrews 8.

--- Can you find any killing of infants in the NT apart from what King Herod ordered in Matthew 2:16, which was the first attempt of Satan to kill Jesus?

I will explain again that the New Covenant was based on the Prophecies of the Old Covenant, --- but as it says in Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

You see, --- In the New Covenant, --- there is persecution, but no rebellion, no violence, no killing of adults, in vengeance, --- and no killing of babies.

However, I wanted to ask Honeto, --- and I will ask you as well, “What is written in ‘your book’?”

Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them).
10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk.
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).
29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime."
29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls.
32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen?
38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
50:36 But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?

--- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ.
Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future.
Jesus said “Follow Me.” And Jesus has gone on ahead --- This instruction is also given in Surah 3:
50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

--- And the promised reward of following Jesus is so good that we don’t want to look back.
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection.


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 2:05pm
Caringheart,
I think we then agree that OT and those quotes that are subject of our discussion are a problem. They are not inline with justice and mercy the followers of NT and FT (the Quran) profess.
I would like to know what you think happened here, in the OT?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 6:17pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I respect your opinion.  I hope you can respect that my position and my experience is different from yours.
I understand, you do not feel safe to argue with God.  I on the other hand feel perfectly safe in doing so.
My God is a loving Father who gave me a mind and a free will, and one who understands and does not expect me to be without questions.  How could I not have questions when the mind of God is so much greater than my own?


You still don't realize how self-contradictory all your "opinions" are.  You preach to me about "pride" and "humility" yet you say that you "argue" with God.  You say God gave you "a mind and a free will", yet you can't bring yourself around to using common sense and admitting that something evil is indeed evil.  At that point, you simply consign yourself to the excuse that "God knows best" (despite claiming at the same time that you "argue" with Him).  Uh-huh...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Re:
"I believe that God is one.  Do I know it of a certainty?  Could I end up being wrong?  Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?  Of course it could.  Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?  For me, yes, He does."
It's all about belief.  Isn't that what I have been saying all along?


I responded to this statement and pointed out how utterly contradictory it is.  How can your "beliefs" be "confirmed" yet you still think that they "could" be wrong?  What is the purpose of "belief" if you have doubts?  The fact that you have doubts yet still cling to your "beliefs" shows that your faith is blind.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You said;
"In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."
Since you are allowed to say this then I should also be allowed to say the following...
that I believe that the word given to Muhammad is a deception of satan.


You would love to prove that wouldn't you?  LOL

You conveniently ignored what I said in response to your absurd questions about God and Satan.  You asked:

"Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?  Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?"

In response to these nonsensical questions, I wrote:

"What the heck does that have to do with the Bible's claim that God (and NOT Satan) commanded the Israelites to kill infants and children? 

Do I believe that Satan has corrupted mankind?  Yes, of course.  That explains why the Bible dares implicate the just and good Creator of the universe with pure evil.  In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."

Originally posted by Caringheart

I'm sorry that you do not understand the things I write and that you get them twisted.  I don't imagine going over and over it will help.
I am discussing not a parent punishing their children but a parent losing their children and that, that causes pain.  Just as when God loses His 'children', His creation, it causes Him pain.  We are His children, even more so than our own human children are our children, because He created us, all of us.  That makes all of us His children... His creation.  Without God there are no children.


You really do have a short memory.  You brought up the parent-child analogy in your response on http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&PID=171038#171038 - 12/3 in which you stated:

"Let me ask... Do you love your children... assuming that you have any... if not, did your parents love you?  Do you not punish your children... or did your parents punish you?  Is it unloving to do so, or are you trying to assert any means to get your children onto a right path?  Would it be loving to never discipline your children and allow them to go their own way, without warning them that there would be consequences, some which are irreversible?  Would it not hurt to lose them to satan in spite of all your efforts?  Do you see that this can happen?
God gives every chance to choose Him, but if we do not belong to Him can He allow us to enter into heaven, the purest of places?  Can a corrupt thing enter into purity?  Or must a corrupt thing go to be where corruption is."


As you can see, you clearly compared parents disciplining their children to God punishing His "children" with eternal damnation.  Don't blame me for "twisting" your words when you can't even remember what you wrote. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Have you never heard of learning from mistakes?  It is said that a truly wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
" A fool learns from his own mistakes, A wise man learns from the mistakes of others"
The old testament shows us all the mistakes made by God's people, though we are not bound to living any longer by old testament ways.
  

How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?

Originally posted by Caringheart

What I know of the Qur'an is what I get from reading it myself.  Unlike you suggest, I have not been told any 'lies' about the Qur'an.  Perhaps you go by what you are told.  I investigate for myself.


You sound like a used-car salesperson, trying to sell an obviously deficient car by promoting your credentials.  I proved how you misquoted the Quran on numerous occasions.  You have lied on several occasions about what the Quran says but instead of admitting that you are wrong, you try to insist that you are right.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Not in the instance I am referring to.  Are you too lazy to go back and see for yourself?  or afraid to admit that I am correct?  It's ok, it doesn't matter.  My question was answered and that is all that matters.
 

I have checked and I know that you are wrong! Big%20smile

Given your short memory, it makes sense that you can't remember.  I won't play this childish game with you.  But...do try to remember.  Come on, you can do it!  All it takes is a little effort.  Go back to when our conversation began and you will see that you are wrong and that acting like a child only damages your reputation more.  Here is a little hint for you: my post from 11/28.  Now, don't be lazy or afraid to find out that you are wrong.  If you want to insist on your childishness, then so be it.  

Originally posted by Caringheart

I obviously do not fail in, as you say, 'my paraphrasing' because you knew exactly what surah I was referring to.  However I was not paraphrasing,
"I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me."   There is a difference.  I am telling you what it says to me.  If you tell me that it means something different to you, that is good.  I am then encouraged.


That just shows that you are not interested in facts but rather upholding your own ignorant opinions.  In contrast to you, I am interested in what a text actually says, not what it "means" to me.  I am interested in the facts. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You feel free to challenge my scriptures, I also say to you, I feel that it is you who follow the word of a man and not God.  Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?
  

The difference is that I provide supporting evidence for my claims.  All you have done is make vague claims, most of which I have refuted.  So to answer your question:

"Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?"

The answer is obvious.  Both of us cannot be right.  We could both be wrong about certain issues, but the evidence shown so far in this thread has shown that you are wrong about the issues we have discussed.  What else can explain your contradictions, inconsistencies, absurd logic and complete absence of evidence?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I love the way you can throw insults at a person just for having a conversation, calling them lazy and liar just because you do not like the things they say.  I am not lazy but I am having a conversation, not a classroom debate and not looking for a grade.  I am sharing in conversation.  You are free to disagree.  I disagree with you plenty but I do not feel the need to insult you, your character, your integrity, or your beliefs.


Don't blame me for seeing it as it is!  I am not afraid to tell people what I think of them.  If you have such thin-skin, that's your problem.  As it stands, I showed why I think you are a liar and a lazy person.  You have not done much to prove me wrong besides complaining.  Until you do, expect the same type of treatment and get over it.

Originally posted by Caringheart

The surah we are discussing...
It doesn't refer to asking about the blessings given...
It refers to "those who have been reading the Book from before thee" ... what those before thee have read in the Book... those who have had the Word of God before thee.


This is what I wrote:

"Here is what the Quran actually says:

"We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.  If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt." (10:93-94)

As you can see, the verses were simply saying that if any Muslims have any doubt about the many blessings God poured upon the Jews, that they should ask the Jews themselves.  The Quran was not suggesting that Muslims should consult the Jews or Christians about scripture."


The verses are telling the Muslims that if they have any doubts about how God "settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place and provided for them sustenance of the best" (i.e. blessed them), that they should ask the Jews themselves (i.e. "those who have been reading the Book from before thee"), who would confirm these verses.  There is nothing in the verse that says Muslims should consult the Jews for spiritual guidance. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

My word means nothing to you so you must seek for yourself.  I will share with you what I know, then it is up to you to verify it to your own satisfaction.  We come here to learn.  Learning takes place by investigating for ones self what others have to say.


This is the excuse of a person who has no evidence for any of her claims.  When poked and prodded to provide evidence, the answer is "go find it yourself".  It's like that commercial for Carfax.  You are a used-car salesperson and I am the customer.  I am asking you to "show me the Carfax!"  As the salespeople in the commercials, you just stall and make excuses.  LOL

Originally posted by Caringheart

Are you also aware of how convoluted the 'facts' are in some sources... Egyptian textbooks for instance... How about those that teach that Jews require blood to make matzo... what about those 'facts' that have been believed by many?  Do you seek facts from sources on both sides of the argument?  I do.  (By the way, that is the definition of not being lazy)


I seek facts from academic and scholarly sources.  Where do you seek "facts"?  I am dying to know!

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is the face of Islam that you present to the world.  It is not a good face and you wonder why people do not see good in Islam?


Who cares what those people think?  As I said, I am interested in factsThat does not mean I don't tolerate people's opinions.  It just means that I do not care about people's opinions, because opinions are not facts.  Opinions can be based on misinformation.  They are the opposite of facts.  Let me give you an example:

Say a racist bigot says that Latinos are taking jobs from hard-working Americans.  This is an opinion.  The facts are completely different, because many Latinos are forced to take jobs which no one else will take.  The fact is that they are not stealing jobs from anyone.  One statement is a racist opinion, devoid of any facts.  The other statement is a fact.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Here are a few instances:
"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me.  My hope is that other people who read these posts will benefit.  When I talk with people like you, it is with the understanding that 99% of the time, you will refuse to acknowledge the facts."
Your facts.  You have all the answers, and could not possibly be wrong.


Where did I say that I have all the answers?  Where did I say that I cannot "possibly be wrong"?  All I said was that it was my hope that other people who are more open to the facts will accept what I have stated.  I am confident that they will accept my claims as factually accurate because I have provided the evidence.  How you misconstrue that think it means that I think I have all the answers is beyond me.

Thank you for proving once again that you are a deceptive and foolish individual. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You know what is in my mind, and of course you could not be wrong.


From what I have seen and read in your posts so far? Sure!  Don't blame me for having an impression of you based on what you have written.  I would get the same impression if someone refused to admit that the Holocaust was evil.  You are the one who has refused to state that killing babies is evil.  That is what is in your mind, right?  I am simply making an observation based on my observations.  If you want to blame someone, then blame yourself for not listening to your God-given common sense.

Originally posted by Caringheart

and you are absolutely certain, with proof, beyond even the shadow of a doubt, that your beliefs could not be wrong, even though they are just that... beliefs.
 

On the issues we have discussed so far?  Yes.  How does that prove that I think that I know everything?  This is typical "Caringheart" logic!

Now with regard to the central topic of this thread, yes, I am certain, "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that killing babies is evil and that God could not have ordered such barbarous behavior.  I am not afraid to say that, unlike you. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...
Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated
blind faith would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)
However I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.


This ridiculous argument can be used to excuse every atrocity.  By refusing to call evil what it is, because "God" allegedly ordered it, then one can excuse murder, rape and all around bad behavior.  By remaining silent on the issue, you are justifying it. 

I particularly like this utterly foolish statement:

"
It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament."       

"A God who says such things"?  Isn't this "God" the same as in the "New Testament"?

You also did not actually answer my question, but instead tried to dance around it, as usual.  I asked you:

"
"Killing babies is evil."  You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?  I don't know whether to laugh or scream!  Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.  It's really weird."

Answer the question.  Can the statement "killing babies is evil" be "substantiated" or is it a statement of "blind faith"?  Think carefully now, if you have to.  Most other people would realize the truth immediately.

Originally posted by Caringheart

And you say that you do not argue with God.  If God indeed ordered it, then you are arguing with God.  By not believing God ordered it, you may very well be arguing with God.
You do argue with God.  It's just you have more trust in your own wisdom.
I am not afraid to say that I argue with God.


You are a fool.  In case it is not painfully clear by now, I know for sure that God did not order such monstrous behavior.  Not my God.  You lie against God if you think He did.  I would hate to be you on the Day you meet him. 

So, no.  I don't "argue" with God, because I know, based on the knowledge that God is just and compassionate, that He did not order the killing of babies.  The only ones I am arguing against are hypocritical blasphemers like you who think that God is willing to order such merciless slaughter, and have the audacity to complain about the Quran. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 7:29pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Placid, you said:

Originally posted by Placid

Correction: --- According to our Book, the New Testament, --- God didn’t order any killings of anyone. --- We refer to the OT, but we are under a new “Code” of --- Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. --- Which fulfills the Ten Commandments, and the prophecy of a “New Covenant” in Jeremiah 31, --- and the fulfillment in Hebrews 8.


Brother Hasan was referring to the Tanakh, what you call the "Old Testament".  Do you not regard it as "scripture"?

The argument that in the "New Testament", God does not order any killings is a distraction from the fact that in the "Old Testament", He does.  What the NT says does not change what the OT says.  You regard both as scripture, so the moral dilemma remains.

Originally posted by Placid

-- Can you find any killing of infants in the NT apart from what King Herod ordered in Matthew 2:16, which was the first attempt of Satan to kill Jesus?


Of course not, but the Jesus of the "New Testament" never actually denounced the killings of infants in the "Old Testament" as evil and wrong, did he?  By not even considering it to be an issue, yet preaching nonviolence at the same time, does not make things all hunky-dory.  

I am glad you brought up the "Massacre of the Innocents" episode mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew.  It only proves my point about infanticide.  Imagine how the Jewish mothers must have felt, assuming Herod did actually order the killings of all male children under 2 years of age, when soldiers came and massacred their babies.  Now think about how the Canaanite women must have felt to watch their babies slaughtered before their very eyes. 

Originally posted by Placid

will explain again that the New Covenant was based on the Prophecies of the Old Covenant, --- but as it says in Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

You see, --- In the New Covenant, --- there is persecution, but no rebellion, no violence, no killing of adults, in vengeance, --- and no killing of babies.


I agree but that is not the issue.  You are trying to reduce the "Old Testament's" significance by appealing to the "New Testament" but none of that changes the fact that in the "Old Testament", horrible things were done.  The argument that "it was in the past" and "what's done is done" should be unacceptable to any rational person.

Originally posted by Placid

However, I wanted to ask Honeto, --- and I will ask you as well, “What is written in ‘your book’?”

Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them).
10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk.
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).
29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime."
29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls.
32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen?
38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
50:36 But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?


I already dealt with this.  Did you read my response to you on http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&PID=170820#170820 - 11/28 ?  The verses above refer to God's punishment of sinful nations.  In other words, God Himself brought down His wrath on these people.  He did not order an army of humans to go and kill every living thing. 

When God commanded believers to fight against their enemies, who were persecuting them for shunning their false gods and worshiping only God, He explicitly forbid the killing of unarmed civilians, especially women and children.  It was only allowed to fight and kill enemy combatants. 

Moreover, if you notice in Surah 6:6, it clearly states that after the sinful generation was destroyed, another generation took its place.  Obviously, this new generation came from somewhere.  They were the offspring of the previous generations that were destroyed and they were warned not to follow in the footsteps of their ancestors, lest the same punishment overtake them as well.  In short, God did not just kill everyone.

Originally posted by Placid

--- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ.
Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future.


Even if the "door is closed", it does not change the fact that when it was "open", horrible things were being done, and it was claimed that God had commanded them.  It seems to me that "the door" should have been closed much sooner.

Also, let me point out in reference to the "future" you speak of, as I pointed out to "Caringheart" before, the Bible says that Jesus (pbuh) will apparently return and destroy all who rejected him.  So, using your analogy, "the door" will apparently be "reopened".  Someone apparently forgot to lock it.  Luke 19:27 states this clearly:

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”"

I asked you before if you were a Jehovah's Witness and you didn't answer.  Are you?  I am curious.

I also asked you why you were trying to find excuses for the acts of genocide and infanticide found in the Tanakh.  At first you said that you had "no comment" but then immediately afterwards, you attempted to find excuses for this senseless slaughter.  What if it had been your child, God forbid?  How would you have felt?  How would that have brought you closer to God, if the people killing your child were claiming to do it at the behest of their "God"?   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 8:20pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.
How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?
The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.

'all scripture is useful for instruction'


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 8:51pm
"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"

Not really.  I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.
I would dearly love for this not to be true.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 8:54pm
"you try to insist that you are right."

Actually I believe I told you that I was encouraged by what you say the verse in question means to you.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 December 2012 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
I think we then agree that OT and those quotes that are subject of our discussion are a problem. They are not inline with justice and mercy the followers of NT and FT (the Quran) profess.
I would like to know what you think happened here, in the OT?
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,
I can not, and do not, try to explain why God would order such killing.  Have you read what I wrote to islamispeace?  My answer is in there.
Salaam to you,
CH


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 07 December 2012 at 9:28am
Hi Islam

Quote: (I said) --- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ.
Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future.

(You said): Even if the "door is closed", it does not change the fact that when it was "open", horrible things were being done, and it was claimed that God had commanded them. It seems to me that "the door" should have been closed much sooner.
--- I asked you before if you were a Jehovah's Witness and you didn't answer. Are you? I am curious.

Response: --- No, --- I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. --- The reason I have not answered before is because there were other questions in the same post that I want to answer as well, which we will get to later, but I have been busy on other posts and other things that take me away.
Since you want to dwell more on the OT, we will look at a little more in 1 Samuel before this terrible slaying and annihilation was done, for which we are sorry for, but are not responsible for.

As you said, all of the destroying of generations in the Quran, simply removed the older generation and allowed the younger generation to replace them. --- But was that true?
--- Is that what it says in these verses?:
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).

--- What does the word ‘annihilation’ mean in 25:39? --- And when it adds the word ‘utter,’ --- would you suggest there was anything left?

In the Book of Samuel, it shows how God dealt with the enemies of Israel, when they trusted in Him. Notice this example, in 1 Samuel 7:
3 Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, “If you return to the Lord with all your hearts, then put away the foreign gods and the Ashtoreths from among you, and prepare your hearts for the Lord, and serve Him only; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines.”
4 So the children of Israel put away the Baals and the Ashtoreths, and served the Lord only.
5 And Samuel said, “Gather all Israel to Mizpah, and I will pray to the Lord for you.”
6 So they gathered together at Mizpah, drew water, and poured it out before the Lord. And they fasted that day, and said there, “We have sinned against the Lord.” And Samuel judged the children of Israel at Mizpah.
7 Now when the Philistines heard that the children of Israel had gathered together at Mizpah, the lords of the Philistines went up against Israel. And when the children of Israel heard of it, they were afraid of the Philistines.
8 So the children of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the Lord our God for us, that He may save us from the hand of the Philistines.”
9 And Samuel took a suckling lamb and offered it as a whole burnt offering to the Lord. Then Samuel cried out to the Lord for Israel, and the Lord answered him.
10 Now as Samuel was offering up the burnt offering, the Philistines drew near to battle against Israel. But the Lord thundered with a loud thunder upon the Philistines that day, and so confused them that they were overcome before Israel.
11 And the men of Israel went out of Mizpah and pursued the Philistines, and drove them back as far as below Beth Car.
12 Then Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Shen, and called its name Ebenezer,[c] saying, “Thus far the Lord has helped us.”
13 So the Philistines were subdued, and they did not come anymore into the territory of Israel. And the hand of the Lord was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel.
14 Then the cities which the Philistines had taken from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron to Gath; and Israel recovered its territory from the hands of the Philistines.
--- (When the Israelites were influenced by the idolatrous nations around, they became idolaters as well. --- When they repented and turned back to God, then He delivered them and restored their land that had been taken away.)

--- I don’t want to make the posts too long, but I know you will not read and understand it if I don’t give you the Scriptures.
I enjoy our discussions. --- We know there has always been God’s judgment on sin. --- So I will add more later, to see what happened in this case.


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 December 2012 at 4:15pm
Caringheart,
that's a contradictory statement. I wonder how you hold it as part of divine guidance, holy book, but cannot cope to agree or live with it? Must be hard?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 December 2012 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings islamispeace,I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.
How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?
The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.'all scripture is useful for instruction'




CAringheart,
we are not talking about mistakes or disobedience, rather commands that are associated with God and addressed to the "Jews" to kill everyone of those who did not believe as they did. So do not try to cover that truth up by distorting it.
I believe that God has never ordered such indiscriminate killings of innocent people including babies and animals by another people who are suppose to value life and be good. That's the dilemma we are talking about and you seem to agree that it is not a good command to follow. But then you are trying to distort this to make it look something else.
On top, the saying of Jesus (pbuh) according to the NT suggests, that his followers have to live and fulfill every iota of the OT laws. While you say you don't! Where does that take you?

Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 December 2012 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by honeto


I believe that God has never ordered indiscriminate killings of innocent people ... by another people who are suppose to value life and be good.
Hasan


Good to hear Hasan.
Then I should never have to fear being killed by you or any other who believes as you do.
salaam,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 08 December 2012 at 2:11pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.
How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?
The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.

'all scripture is useful for instruction'


What does this have to do with this topic?  Did the Israelites make a "mistake" when they butchered men, women, children and animals? 

So, in your view, the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law!  What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?

Originally posted by Caringheart

"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"

Not really.  I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.
I would dearly love for this not to be true.


But, in your view, it is still true, is it not?  Even though you "would rather not believe" that other people are "being deceived", you still think that is the case, right?  So, if you believe this, then this belief requires proof. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

"you try to insist that you are right."

Actually I believe I told you that I was encouraged by what you say the verse in question means to you.


But if you had done the "research" you claim to have done, would you not already have been "encouraged" and understood how the majority of Muslims have interpreted those verses?  Yet, you claimed that you were reading the verses as you understood them.  This is a very deceptive tactic, and one which shows your bias.  How is your view of those verses representative of 1.5 billion Muslims?  Who are you, a Christian, to interpret the Quran, the holy book of Islam, from your own point of view and then tell Muslims what their book says?  Talk about arrogance.        


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 December 2012 at 7:52pm
Greetings islamispeace,
"Islam's history and nature is far too complex to be treated in a brief study. The very term Islam' is equivocal - its sects far exceed in variety and number the almost uncountable sects of Protestant Christianity. To speak indiscriminately of 'Muslims' as if all Muslims believed the same thing, or as if Islam and the Qur'an meant the same thing to all of them, is misleading." (http://jloughnan.tripod.com/3f_islam.htm)

What about you?
in your own words...
Who are you, a muslim, to interpret the Judeo-Christian scriptures, the holy scriptures, from your own point of view and then tell others what their scripture says?

What are your credentials to make judgements about what the scriptures of others say?

We are free to express what we think.  We are free to discuss and learn from the beliefs of others.  We need to understand what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding.

Yes, I am discussing the scriptures according to what they mean to me when I read them.  (Just as you are discussing the scriptures of others according to what they mean to you)   And if you can convince me that your scriptures mean something different, and that they do not mean to you what they mean to me... that is encouragement.

Salaam,
CH



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 09 December 2012 at 6:45am
Hi Islam

Continuing in 1 Samuel 8:
God delivered Israel from the Philistines by defeating them and putting such fear in them that they went back to their own land and lived at peace with Israel.
--- But again the Jewish people turned back to idolatry, --- so this was the result of their disobedience again in 1 Samuel 8:
1 Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel.
2 The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba.
3 But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.
4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah,
5 and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord.
7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also.
9 Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”
10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king.
11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots.
12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.
14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants.
15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants.
16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men,[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work.
17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants.
18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us,
20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord.
22 So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”

--- We will see the difference between doing things under God’s leadership and under man’s leadership.


Placid



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 December 2012 at 11:08am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

"Islam's history and nature is far too complex to be treated in a brief study. The very term Islam' is equivocal - its sects far exceed in variety and number the almost uncountable sects of Protestant Christianity. To speak indiscriminately of 'Muslims' as if all Muslims believed the same thing, or as if Islam and the Qur'an meant the same thing to all of them, is misleading." (http://jloughnan.tripod.com/3f_islam.htm)

What about you?
in your own words...


What do you mean "in your own words"?  Whose "words" are they going to be?  What are you, a lawyer doing a cross-examination?  This isn't "pretend time"!  LOL

To answer your question, your attempted distraction by quoting a Catholic's opinion about Islam is irrelevant.  It is irrelevant if some Muslims don't interpret the Quran according to the consensus, although it is true that many do, just as many Catholics don't necessarily follow the ruling of the Church.  An individual's personal opinions are unimportant.  We should practice Islam as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) practiced it.  The interpretation should be based on the texts, the Quran and Sunnah.  Personal opinions are irrelevant. 

In addition, the Catholic author makes a few inaccurate statements.  For example, he claims that the 4 schools of jurisprudence (Fiqh) are actually different "sects", which is untrue.  The Hanifis, Malikis, Shafis and Hanbalis are all Sunni Muslims.  They agree on all the central tenets of Islam.  The differences are on minor and mundane issues, such as whether to raise one's hands when going into rukuh during prayer.  On the theological issues, they are in complete agreement.  Therefore, they are not "sects". 

By the way, thank you for showing where you get your information about Islam from.  It is from like-minded fellow Christians!  What a shock!  So, instead of learning about Islam from Islamic sources, you learn it from Christian ones.  How very "unbiased" of you! LOL

Originally posted by Caringheart

Who are you, a muslim, to interpret the Judeo-Christian scriptures, the holy scriptures, from your own point of view and then tell others what their scripture says?

What are your credentials to make judgements about what the scriptures of others say?
   

Another attempted distraction.  Why don't you answer my question? 

When did I interpret the Bible from my "own point of view"?  When I quoted the Bible, such as Luke 19:27, I backed it up with a commentary written by a Christian scholar!  How is that my "point of view"?  LOL

On the other hand, you have admitted that you read the Quran based on what it "means" to you.  In other words, you admit that you read it with a certain level of bias.  You are not interested in what it actually says, just what you want it to say.

Originally posted by Caringheart

We are free to express what we think.  We are free to discuss and learn from the beliefs of others.  We need to understand what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding.


If you were interested in "what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding", you would not be (mis)quoting the Quran over and over again and then saying that your understanding is based on what the verses mean to you.  This just shows that you are not interested in "what the other believes..."  It is just another attempt by a phony to distract attention from her real agenda.  You should know that I absolutely despise phonies!  There have been many on this forum in the past.   

Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, I am discussing the scriptures according to what they mean to me when I read them.  (Just as you are discussing the scriptures of others according to what they mean to you)   And if you can convince me that your scriptures mean something different, and that they do not mean to you what they mean to me... that is encouragement.


You still have not answered my question.  What a surprise! 

Who are you that I need to "convince" you?!  Do you think I care what a random person like you thinks about my religion or my holy book?  I could care less what an ignorant person like you thinks.  As I said, I am not interested in personal opinions.  I am interested in facts.  Facts are supported by evidence.  You have presented absolutely nothing in terms of evidence for any of your claims. 

And I certainly don't suffer from any any delusions that I would be able to "convince" you of anything.  I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research.   

Now, back to the topic and the other questions that you have desperately tried to ignore:

Originally posted by Caringheart

You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...
Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated
blind faith would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)
However I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament,
then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.

This ridiculous argument can be used to excuse every atrocity.  By refusing to call evil what it is, because "God" allegedly ordered it, then one can excuse murder, rape and all around bad behavior.  By remaining silent on the issue, you are justifying it. 

I particularly like this utterly foolish statement:

"
It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament."       

"A God who says such things"?  Isn't this "God" the same as in the "New Testament"?

You also did not actually answer my question, but instead tried to dance around it, as usual.  I asked you:

"
"Killing babies is evil."  You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?  I don't know whether to laugh or scream!  Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.  It's really weird."

Answer the question.  Can the statement "killing babies is evil" be "substantiated" or is it a statement of "blind faith"?  Think carefully now, if you have to.  Most other people would realize the truth immediately.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.
How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?
The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.

'all scripture is useful for instruction'

What does this have to do with this topic?  Did the Israelites make a "mistake" when they butchered men, women, children and animals? 

So, in your view, the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law!  What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?

Originally posted by Caringheart

"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"

Not really.  I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.
I would dearly love for this not to be true.

But, in your view, it is still true, is it not?  Even though you "would rather not believe" that other people are "being deceived", you still think that is the case, right?  So, if you believe this, then this belief requires proof. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 December 2012 at 11:37am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- No, --- I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. --- The reason I have not answered before is because there were other questions in the same post that I want to answer as well, which we will get to later, but I have been busy on other posts and other things that take me away.
Since you want to dwell more on the OT, we will look at a little more in 1 Samuel before this terrible slaying and annihilation was done, for which we are sorry for, but are not responsible for.


So then what are you?  You say that Jesus is not God.  Well, this is the belief of the majority of "Christians".  Are you a Unitarian? 

I never said that you are "responsible" for the stories of infanticide in the Bible.  In fact, no one has made that accusation.  The issue is how can you believe that a just and compassionate God would allow the blood of innocents to be spilled in a mass orgy of senseless violence.  You are not responsible for the alleged killings because they allegedly happened thousands of years ago, but by refusing to see them as evil and counter to everything God has said He wants, you blaspheme against Him.  That is the issue. 

Making excuses for the slaughter only compounds the problem.

Originally posted by Placid

As you said, all of the destroying of generations in the Quran, simply removed the older generation and allowed the younger generation to replace them. --- But was that true?
--- Is that what it says in these verses?:
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).

--- What does the word ‘annihilation’ mean in 25:39? --- And when it adds the word ‘utter,’ --- would you suggest there was anything left?
 

It is referring to the annihilation of the older generation.  The subsequent generations had to come from somewhere.  They didn't just grow out of the earth, did they?  As Ibn Kathir notes in his commentary on Surah 6:6:

"(And created after them other generations.) so that We test the new generations, as well. Yet, they committed similar errors and were destroyed, as their ancestors were destroyed. Therefore, beware of the same end that might befall you, for you are not dearer to Allah than these previous nations, but the Messenger whom you defied is dearer to Allah than the Messengers they defied. Thus, you are more liable than them to receive torment, if it was not for Allah's mercy and kindness."


Also, as I said, the destruction of these nations was done by God, not by human armies supposedly following God's command.  Only God has the authority to destroy a nation.  He has not given that authority to mankind.  That is why Muslims are forbidden to kill non-combatants.  Genocide is strictly forbidden.  It was not forbidden for the Israelites, according to the Bible.

Originally posted by Placid

(When the Israelites were influenced by the idolatrous nations around, they became idolaters as well. --- When they repented and turned back to God, then He delivered them and restored their land that had been taken away.)

--- I don’t want to make the posts too long, but I know you will not read and understand it if I don’t give you the Scriptures.
I enjoy our discussions. --- We know there has always been God’s judgment on sin. --- So I will add more later, to see what happened in this case.


I am already aware of the excuses given for why the Israelites had to kill every living thing.  It makes no sense to destroy a nation because the Israelites sinned.  Each person is responsible for his/her own sins.  The Israelites sinned themselves, by worshiping the idols of the surrounding nations.  How does that justify sticking a sword into the soft flesh of an infant?  How does that justify staining the earth with the blood of the innocent?  How heartless were these Israelites that they could kill an infant without any hesitation?  This is extremely disturbing behavior and I am shocked as to what lengths you will go to justify or excuse it.

I will say this though.  I find your posts to be much more honest than that of Caringheart's, and I appreciate that.  Even though I completely disagree with your reasoning and am utterly shocked and disturbed by it, I still have nothing but respect for you because of your honesty. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 December 2012 at 6:27pm
Greetings islamispeace,

If you take the time to read all of my posts you will see that I use many sources... muslim and non-muslim.

I have actually been reading the quran because I thought the criticisms of it were unfair.  I could see where much of the criticism of some of what is in the quran is no different than what is in the old testament.

Would your rather I take the word of those who speak against the quran, without reading to judge for myself?

If I am not interested in what you believe then why do I thank you for sharing what you believe?
The bigger question is whether or not you can take a similar interest in understanding others in order to reach understanding and peace, or do you prefer to chase after dissention?  What would the Creator wish?

If you don't care what I think then why bother to engage in these discussions?

You are right, you don't need to convince me of anything, but if what you say offers encouragement then we are on a road to peace, and that should be the whole point of discussion.
"I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research. "
There you go again saying that you know what I think.
It is a shame that you are so closed minded(or maybe you are just young), because you are wrong.

I have a question for you.
I don't see your allah of the quran as any different from the God of the old testament.  Your Allah orders killing in his name also.  So why are you making this argument against God of the old testament?

No, God of the old testament, by everything the old and new testament testify to, made the decision to 'do a new thing' (it is in the scriptures, prophesied in the old, fulfilled in the new)... He made a new covenant revealing a different aspect of Himself.  We who 'have ears to hear and eyes to see' follow the new covenant.

I have answered your question over and over, so there is really no point in your continuing to address me.  Here was, and is, my answer, again.
I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.
As far as the "law"... if you read my reply to Hasan... you must do some studying on Judaism to understand... you must know the whole of the scriptures.  The following is what I shared with Hasan.
There was the physical law - the law of rituals
and the spiritual law
If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.
Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.  He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.  He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.
If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.

This is why it is so important to know all of the scriptures and not just part.  Full understanding can not come unless you know the whole of scripture.
You also overlook where I say... quoting the scriptures... 'all scripture is useful for instruction'.
It's not paying lip service to have learned not to go around killing people in the name of God.  We still gain from the scriptures the wisdom of how, and why, not to sin.  Does Islam teach about sin?  Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?  Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?

Regarding proofs... There is no proof to be had except the proof that will come on judgement day.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 8:15am
Originally posted by islamispeace

What on earth does the punishment of Hellfire for those who deserve it due to the conscious choice they made have to do with killing babies, who represent everything that is innocent?  Do you realize how desperate you sound in trying to justify what any rational, God-fearing person would rightfully denounce as pure evil?  Why is it so hard for you to denounce evil? 

It is a sad tactic of yours to denigrate or insult others? Do you think that a valid form of argument?

There is no change of topic here but an attempt to ask you if the God of the OLd Testament is the same as the Allah of Islam? Hence. the question about Allah burning off skin and splashing water as hot as molten metal in peoples faces for eternity - so what is your answer?
Let me know if you agree or disagree:1.  God is good.2. God is not evil.3. God commands good.4. God does not command evil.5. Charity is good.6. God commands charity.7. Killing babies is evil.8. God does not command killing babies. They are not even moral dilemmas...at least not to normal, rational people. I guess that does not include you guys

If we are talking about about the God of the Bible lets look at your item "God does not command evil" and I think I might agree with that but the question is who DECIDES what is evil? For example, Biblically the injunction is for one man and one wife so any God who commands anything different is commanding evil. Charity is indeed good but where does it originate - well the Bible in 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that it originates in or out of love - so love sees no race or creed and give to anyone in need - is this how you see it also?


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

I believe that God has never ordered indiscriminate killings of innocent people ... by another people who are suppose to value life and be good. Hasan
Good to hear Hasan.Then I should never have to fear being killed by you or any other who believes as you do.salaam,CH


Caringheart,
unless you commit murder or cause mischief on the land,according to the Quran.
So now going back to the original issue, how did such injustices (killing of innocent people, babies, and animals) creep into OT and claimed to be words of God?
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by honeto

going back to the original issue, how did such injustices (killing of innocent people, babies, and animals) creep into OT and claimed to be words of God?
Hasan


answered and done.
peace


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 5:31pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

If you take the time to read all of my posts you will see that I use many sources... muslim and non-muslim.


That's a load of BS.  In none of your responses to me did you provide any sources, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, with the exception of the article by a Catholic apologist in your last post.  I have asked you on numerous occasions to provide your sources and you have always ignored my request.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have actually been reading the quran because I thought the criticisms of it were unfair.  I could see where much of the criticism of some of what is in the quran is no different than what is in the old testament.

Would your rather I take the word of those who speak against the quran, without reading to judge for myself?


You already do!  LOL  That is clear by the fact that many of your claims against the Quran mimic the claims of "those who speak against the Quran".  For example, you foolishly referred to Surah al-Tawba ("kill them whereever you find them) and claimed that it was proof of the similarity between the Quran and the "Old Testament".  Like many other ignoramuses and "those who speak against the Quran", you quoted the verse completely out of context and made a false claim about it.  I know from experience that this verse is one of the favorites of anti-Islamic buffoons.  The same claim you made, I have already heard many times from other like-minded people.

Originally posted by Caringheart

If I am not interested in what you believe then why do I thank you for sharing what you believe?
The bigger question is whether or not you can take a similar interest in understanding others in order to reach understanding and peace, or do you prefer to chase after dissention?  What would the Creator wish?


It is perfectly clear from your posts that you are not interested in "understanding".  You are a phony.  You pretend to be interested in dialogue and "understanding" but your posts show otherwise.

Originally posted by Caringheart

If you don't care what I think then why bother to engage in these discussions?


Um...haven't I already made this clear?  I am interested in facts, not opinions.  That is why I "engage in these discussions."  It is to determine the facts and refute the lies, inshaAllah. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You are right, you don't need to convince me of anything, but if what you say offers encouragement then we are on a road to peace, and that should be the whole point of discussion.
  

It doesn't matter to me if it gives you "encouragement".  If you had already done the research that you claim you have done, you would already be encouraged, instead of repeating ad nauseum the same cliched arguments against Islam, the Quran and of course Muhammad (pbuh).  Therefore, it is clear to me that the purpose of you being here is not to achieve "understanding" or "peace". 

Originally posted by Caringheart

"I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research. "
There you go again saying that you know what I think.
It is a shame that you are so closed minded(or maybe you are just young), because you are wrong.


Sure, sure.  I am simply making observations based on what I have read in your posts.  If you think I am wrong, then you need to do a better job of proving it.  It is amply clear from your posts that you are not interested in learning about Islam.  How could you be?  You repeat the same ridiculous arguments that any person with no idea about Islam would make.  Don't blame me for your own failures.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have a question for you.
I don't see your allah of the quran as any different from the God of the old testament.  Your Allah orders killing in his name also.  So why are you making this argument against God of the old testament?
  

You still don't get it, do you?  The "God" of the "Old Testament" orders the killing of innocent people, including infants!  Allah (swt) does not.  That is the topic of this thread.  There is a difference between killing infants and killing enemy combatants.  Are you so dense and disturbed that you can't see that?

Originally posted by Caringheart

No, God of the old testament, by everything the old and new testament testify to, made the decision to 'do a new thing' (it is in the scriptures, prophesied in the old, fulfilled in the new)... He made a new covenant revealing a different aspect of Himself.  We who 'have ears to hear and eyes to see' follow the new covenant.
 

Actually, you close your "ears" and "eyes" to the plain truth about the slaughter the "God" of the "Old Testament" ordered.  You think that because there is a "new covenant" (which will expire as I showed), somehow we can forget about the horrific acts committed in the past.  Basically, you are saying "it was in the past; what's done is done".  What kind of sicko thinks this way?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.


Wow...arrogance, pride and blind faith, all rolled into one! 

Furthermore, you still have not answered my question, silly!  Here it is again for like the fifth time:

""Killing babies is evil."  You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?  I don't know whether to laugh or scream!  Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.  It's really weird."

I am asking you if the statement "killing babies is evil" can be substantiated or not. 
Answer the question.

Originally posted by Caringheart

As far as the "law"... if you read my reply to Hasan... you must do some studying on Judaism to understand... you must know the whole of the scriptures.  The following is what I shared with Hasan.
There was the physical law - the law of rituals
and the spiritual law
If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.
Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.  He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.  He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.
If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.
 

The views of Judaism are irrelevant here, especially since neither one of us is a Jew.  I have found that Christians tend to completely misrepresent Judaism for their own purposes.  You are not a representative of Judaism, so why are you speaking on behalf of it?  Without evidence, your claims about the Jewish law are nothing but uncorroborated opinions.

Moreover, none of this explains why "God" commanded the Israelites to kill infants.  It is a distraction, but one which only affects Christians who can sleep better at night by trying to distance themselves from the Old Testament as much as possible.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You also overlook where I say... quoting the scriptures... 'all scripture is useful for instruction'.
It's not paying lip service to have learned not to go around killing people in the name of God.  We still gain from the scriptures the wisdom of how, and why, not to sin.  Does Islam teach about sin?  Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?  Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?
    

Again, none of this explains why your "scripture" talks about killing infants.  The Israelites were not "sinning" when they were marauding through the Holy Land, killing everything in their path.  This is psychotic behavior, and for Christians to claim that it was God's commandment is asick and perverse lie against God, who is just and compassionate. 

When I said you were paying "lip service" to the Tanakh, I explained why I thought so.  I said:

"So, in your view, the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law!  What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?"


You don't follow the Tanakh.  You only use it to when it suits your purpose.  Therefore, you only pay "lip service" to it. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Regarding proofs... There is no proof to be had except the proof that will come on judgement day.


Says one whose faith is blind.  What would be the use of such "proof" if by then it would too late to acknowledge it?  How can God expect us to believe in Him if He does not give us sound proof?  What do you think will happen on Judgement Day when the "proof" is finally laid bare for all to see?  Will God say to all (including the disbelievers who wanted proof):

"Good game everyone.  Let's all go to Paradise!"

Or will He say to those who did not believe:

"Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting damnation!"     

What does the Bible say on this matter? Wink 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 5:45pm
"Basically, you are saying "it was in the past; what's done is done".

Actually I am saying to be sure you learn from the new covenant not to act in this way... the way of the old testament.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 5:49pm
in your own words(islamispeace)...

You are not a representative of anything other than Islam, so why do you presume to speak on behalf of other religion?
__________________________________

In my case, I am seeking answers to my questions about the teachings of Muhammad, and the prevalent beliefs of those who call themselves muslim.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 5:53pm
"Moreover, none of this explains why "God" commanded the Israelites to kill infants."

You are correct, there is no answer for it.  Only God can give the answer.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

     

What does the Bible say on this matter? Wink 


In the Bible it says, 'satan do not tempt me[by asking for shows of proof], you do not put the Lord God to the test'.  Satan tried Jesus in the desert by provocating for him to give proofs of his God.
Jesus was clear that there are no proofs to be given since they would not be believed anyway.

Two questions...
- So what sources do you read that you think are so reliable and unbiased?  Do you read from both sides?  I do.
- Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about your faith?  You have expressed your doubts left and right, but have I been uncivil in answering your doubts?


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 6:39am
Hi Islam,

Quote: So then what are you? You say that Jesus is not God. Well, this is the belief of the majority of "Christians". Are you a Unitarian?

Response: --- What am I? --- I became a Christian, --- that means I accepted Jesus as my Savior many years ago, in a Baptist Church, for which I thank God, and the caring people that witnessed to me about the Love of God and His provision for salvation through Jesus Christ.

--- Now since you ask I will speak freely of what Christians believe, --- and it is through Faith in God, and an awareness of His presence with us, that gives the assurance of Eternal life, (which is also verified to Christians in the Quran, Surah 3:55).
However, I began to read and study the Bible and I learned about the faith of Abraham, our Patriarch. --- Then the many other Prophets and teachers.
In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.

--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching, which comes from ‘the Sermon on the Mount,’ Matthew 5, 6, and 7, --- and the two commandments to “Love God with all your heart,” --- And ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. --- A single verse that expresses this instruction is John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
--- “He who HEARS My word. --- The word ‘HEAR’ has the deeper meaning of --- ‘understanding and obeying’ Jesus’ teaching.
In dedicating myself to follow Jesus as He said to His disciples and Apostles, “Follow Me,” --- so I have done that.

--- It is really like your signature verse:
--- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for God, the Cherisher of the Worlds.” (Surat al-Anaam: 162).
--- That is true dedication, so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have? --- (I’m not inviting you to be like me, --- but how are you in your present level of faith in God?) --- Can you agree with what I say next?

I would like to make a comparison --- to becoming a true Muslim.
I understand that Islam means ‘Surrender,’ or ‘Submission,’ according to Surah 5:
3 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
--- (This seems to have been ‘imbedded’ in this verse later, because it does not suit the context, and it seems that it was revealed to Muhammad in year 10 of the Hijrah, after the victory had been won over idolatry, --- shortly before his death.)
--- And this referred to the Faith of Abraham, as in Surah 2:
132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
Yusuf Ali: 132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
--- (So to follow the Faith of Abraham makes one a ‘believer’ --- and you don’t need labels, because that tries to ‘categorize’ you, --- The word “Christian’ really means ‘Christ’s one.’

--- I have worked most of my time in inter-denominational Church groups. I just like to say I am a Bible believing, Evangelical, --- which you may understand in the following things I say.

--- I became fascinated by the Quran, because it gives the same pattern of conversion that the Gospel does.
The first point is to Believe in God as Sovereign and Almighty. Then to believe in His word, as it says in Surah 4:
162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.
163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
164   Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; - and to Moses God spoke direct; -
165 Apostles who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against God: For God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
166 But God beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness: But enough is God for a witness.
167 Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of God, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path.
--- (So, --- to know God’s will for our lives, we have to believe these words that speak of the inspiration of the Prophets, and receive this same ‘inspiration ‘ by the Holy Spirit, before we are in this realm of Faith as a believer.

So the first part in Islam would be to Believe in God and His word, and His Prophets and their Prophecies and fulfillment, --- and pray personally to God.
--- Then we are ready for the next step, --- which is a familiar word to you, but used with improper meaning. ---

--- The word is ‘Jihad,’ --- which means ‘struggle.’
This is the inner struggle to yield one’s will to God's will and give Him full control of our lives.
Therefore, we make Him the Master of our days, and our destiny.
Then one would be a Muslim, --- A ‘Surrendered one,’ --- would they not?

One more comparison from the Quran in Surah 3:
52 But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).
Yusuf Ali: 52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53 Our Lord (God)! -We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him (Jesus) whom Thou hast sent. Enroll us among those who witness (to the truth).

--- So I am a believer and ‘follower’ of Jesus like the Apostles were (and by God’s grace, will continue to be surrendered unto Him).
--- And finally, this last verse that follows gives the assurance:
3:55   Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:

(Sorry, it is a little long, but you were asking. --- Would you also like to relate your testimony so that we might know your experience of Faith as well?)


Placid



Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 9:05am
Islamispeace, according to the Qur'an the human race were wiped out except for Noah and his family.  Therefore Allah kills babies too- this is the same story that is in the Bible. 

By the way, the genocide started with Moses (pbuh) and was continued by his successors, including Joshua.  What was that you said about reading the Bible carefully to see what it actually says?  

It was judgement, not genocide- you are ignoring the fact that Rhab and her family and the Gibeonites were spared, ignoring the large amounts of Canaanites exiled in Egypt who came with the Israelites, that it was a war of liberation against quisling kings and their supporters in a part of the Egyptian Empire, that the Israelites only destroyed three cities, they never went through with the campaign, they were not warring against the Canaanites outside of Canaan, God upon seeing the lack of following through of Joshua's disabling operations (not acts of genocide), withdrew His support and let them mix to test them, including letting the bronze age weaponry of the Israelites not overcome the iron age weapons of their enemies.  This points to God, although giving the command of conquest and driving the Canaanites out (not genocide), really intended to let things go when the Israelites did not follow things throughm knowing it would test them and also prove to the world that our sin and failure is so complete that not even a human-run theocracy works.  God also warned the Israelites He would do to them what He did to the Canaanites.  This He did, in 721 BC, 587 BC and AD 70.  And yet the Jews weren't wiped out.  If the Canaanites were so wiped out, explain how Jesus spoke with a Canaanite woman 1200 years or so later.  As for the death of babies, what about babies who die naturally?  Don't you believe as a Muslim in predestination?  Also, one other factor needs to be taken into consideration.  God alone knows how a baby is going to turn out when he or she grows up.  The only thing which could at all justify the death of a baby is if God knows that the survival of the human reace depends on it, considering His foreknowledge of how someone will turn out and what they will do.  (Hitler was a baby.)  Also, unpopular as this is going to be, you believe that man was conceived and born sinless.  We Christians do not.  We were born in sin and shapen in iniquity.  Paradoxically, God was acting in mercy.  Besides, as you read the Old Testament on, God is vindicated by His actions.  The true Faith was only secured by God's ruthless treatment of the Jews in 587 BC, chastening the Jews and creating enough people of faith to jutify God coming amongst them as a Jew.  Finally, given the ritual abuse of children, babies right from the beginning due to that abuse were already traumatised and corrupted. 

Also, I would advise you to read what is said in Genesis about the Nephilim, as well as Jude's letter in the New Testament.  The 'sons of God' sinned and came down from Heaven and took the daughters of men, and had children, who were giants and conquerors.  the 12 spies sent by Moses reported that the people in Canaan were giants and to them the spies were just grasshoppers.  It seems that the people the Israelites were fighting weren't even fully human.  And before you mock, remember you believe in jinn.  ;o)   


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 5:52pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Bunter

It is a sad tactic of yours to denigrate or insult others? Do you think that a valid form of argument?


Why don't you try to answer the question? 

How am I "denigrating" or "insulting" you by labeling the killing of babies as "evil"?  Are you that thin-skinned that you get "insulted" so easily? 

Originally posted by Bunter

There is no change of topic here but an attempt to ask you if the God of the OLd Testament is the same as the Allah of Islam? Hence. the question about Allah burning off skin and splashing water as hot as molten metal in peoples faces for eternity - so what is your answer?
 

LOL This issue has already been dealt with.  Comparing the killing of infants by the Israelites at God's alleged behest to God's punishment of sinners in Hell is a ridiculous comparison.  One is done by humans.  The other is done by God.  Do you really think God would command believers to slaughter babies?   

In addition, your attempt to compare "the God of the Old Testament" to "the Allah of Islam" because of the latter's punishment of sinners is laughable given that the "God of the New Testament" also punishes sinners in Hell!

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”"  (Revelation 21:8)


So, what's your point?

Originally posted by Bunter

If we are talking about about the God of the Bible lets look at your item "God does not command evil" and I think I might agree with that but the question is who DECIDES what is evil? For example, Biblically the injunction is for one man and one wife so any God who commands anything different is commanding evil. Charity is indeed good but where does it originate - well the Bible in 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that it originates in or out of love - so love sees no race or creed and give to anyone in need - is this how you see it also?


This is the typical excuse I am getting from you guys.  You ask "who decides what is evil".  God does, of course.  But you ask this question to protect yourself from answering the question whether the killing of babies in the Tanakh was evil.  By refusing to answer the question and instead posing the question "who decides what is evil", you can excuse any type of evil or immoral behavior.  Do you think rape is evil?  How do you decide that?  Aren't some things just common sense?  Has not God given us common sense? 

Regarding charity, it is to be given to all who need it, regardless of race or creed.  The Quran commands charity:

"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing." (al-Baqarah, 2:177)

Let's get back to the killing of babies.  It is obvious that all of you will refrain from labeling the Israelite massacres as evil.  You cannot bring yourself around to admit that marauding soldiers spilling the blood of innocent children and babies is evil.  That is both disturbing and sickening.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 7:25pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

Islamispeace, according to the Qur'an the human race were wiped out except for Noah and his family.  Therefore Allah kills babies too- this is the same story that is in the Bible.


Not that this is in any way related to God commanding the Israelites to kill babies during a war, but:

1.  There is actually no evidence in the Quran that the whole earth was destroyed in the flood, and,

2.  As I explained to Placid, there is a difference between God destroying sinful nations and God ordering human armies to destroy entire nations, including killing the babies.

God carries out His judgment on whomsoever He wills.  Humans have not been given the authority to condemn entire nations because that is God's right only.

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

It was judgement, not genocide- you are ignoring the fact that Rhab and her family and the Gibeonites were spared, ignoring the large amounts of Canaanites exiled in Egypt who came with the Israelites, that it was a war of liberation against quisling kings and their supporters in a part of the Egyptian Empire, that the Israelites only destroyed three cities, they never went through with the campaign, they were not warring against the Canaanites outside of Canaan, God upon seeing the lack of following through of Joshua's disabling operations (not acts of genocide), withdrew His support and let them mix to test them, including letting the bronze age weaponry of the Israelites not overcome the iron age weapons of their enemies.
 

Wow.  It was not genocide but "judgment".  Right.  So, this "judgment" apparently involved, for some reason, "utterly destroying" the target nation, including the killing of children and infants (i.e. genocide).  What kind of "judgment" is that?

Regarding your ridiculous excuse that the killings are somehow off-set by the fact that Rahab and her family were spared, you neglect to mention the reason:

"They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.  [...] Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house. 25 But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho—and she lives among the Israelites to this day." (Joshua 6: 21, 24-25)

So, the only reason she was spared was because she helped the Israelite spies.  It was not because of the Israelites' compassion.  Even if that was the case, you think that because Rahab and her family were spared, we can overlook the fact that the rest of the city was completely destroyed and every living thing along with it. 

Regarding the Gibeonites, the only reason they were not slaughtered was because the Israelites had a treaty with them and it was considered a sin to violate one's treaty.  Also, the whole reason the Gibeonites even tried to deceive the Israelites into forming the treaty was because they feared that what was done to the other nations would also be done to them:

"Then Joshua summoned the Gibeonites and said, “Why did you deceive us by saying, ‘We live a long way from you,’ while actually you live near us? 23 You are now under a curse: You will never be released from service as woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God.”  They answered Joshua, “Your servants were clearly told how the Lord your God had commanded his servant Moses to give you the whole land and to wipe out all its inhabitants from before you. So we feared for our lives because of you, and that is why we did this. 25 We are now in your hands. Do to us whatever seems good and right to you.”

26 So Joshua saved them from the Israelites, and they did not kill them." (Joshua 9:22-26)

How nice it was of Joshua to spare them to be the servants of the Israelites.  The only reason was that he had a treaty with them, even though it was based on a deception that was designed to protect the Gibeonites from meeting the same grisly fate as the other nations.   

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

cts of genocide), withdrew His support and let them mix to test them, including letting the bronze age weaponry of the Israelites not overcome the iron age weapons of their enemies.  This points to God, although giving the command of conquest and driving the Canaanites out (not genocide), really intended to let things go when the Israelites did not follow things throughm knowing it would test them and also prove to the world that our sin and failure is so complete that not even a human-run theocracy works.  God also warned the Israelites He would do to them what He did to the Canaanites.  This He did, in 721 BC, 587 BC and AD 70.  And yet the Jews weren't wiped out.  If the Canaanites were so wiped out, explain how Jesus spoke with a Canaanite woman 1200 years or so later.


This is a problem for you Christians to answer.  Why?  Because of what Deuteronomy 7 stated:

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. "#fen-NIV-5114a" - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deuteronomy%207&version=NIV#fen-NIV-5114a - a ] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."


Apparently, God's promise was not fulfilled:

"Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of Judah." (Joshua 15:63)

So, not only was God's promise not fulfilled, but it also explains why some of the target nations continued to survive despite the clear command to "destroy them totally".  The only reason was that the Israelites failed to fulfill God's command.  The Jebusites managed to survive not because of the Israelites' "compassion" but because they fought hard against them and managed to defeat them.

So, you ask a good question.  Why did the target nations still survive when God allegedly promised that they would be defeated by the Israelites?  Why indeed!  That is a question for you to answer, not me. 

The other point is that the nations that the Israelites managed to defeat were put to the sword and destroyed, allegedly.  There was a definite attempt to wipe them off the fact of the earth.  But just as any attempted genocide usually fails, so did the Israelites' attempted genocide ultimately fail.  It was not because they were compassionate.  They just failed to finish the job, just like the Nazis failed in their evil plot to exterminate the Jews or how the Hutu militias in Rwanda failed in their evil plot to exterminate the Tutsis or even how the Turks failed in their evil plot to exterminate the Armenians.  Genocide is genocide, even if it ultimately failed.  The attempt and the intention was there. 

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

As for the death of babies, what about babies who die naturally?  Don't you believe as a Muslim in predestination?  Also, one other factor needs to be taken into consideration.  God alone knows how a baby is going to turn out when he or she grows up.  The only thing which could at all justify the death of a baby is if God knows that the survival of the human reace depends on it, considering His foreknowledge of how someone will turn out and what they will do.  (Hitler was a baby.)


A natural death is different from being purposefully stabbed with a sword. 
How screwed up can you be to not see the difference? 

If the excuse you give for their killing was that God knew how they would turn out, then why didn't He just take their souls and let them die peacefully, instead of at the point of the sword of a marauding Israelite soldier?  How much pain do you think they would have felt? 

Yes, Hitler was a baby, and as a baby, he was innocent.  It was only when he became a man and had an understanding of right and wrong did he become culpable for his actions.  Hence, he became evil.  Babies are not evil. 

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

Also, unpopular as this is going to be, you believe that man was conceived and born sinless.  We Christians do not.  We were born in sin and shapen in iniquity.  Paradoxically, God was acting in mercy.
 

So being killed at the point of a sword was an "act of mercy"?  I can't believe what I am reading!  Shocked  Wouldn't it have been more merciful if God had just taken them peacefully, if it was that important for them die at all? 

Why are they "born in sin"?  How can you be held responsible for something that is out of your control? 

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

Besides, as you read the Old Testament on, God is vindicated by His actions.  The true Faith was only secured by God's ruthless treatment of the Jews in 587 BC, chastening the Jews and creating enough people of faith to jutify God coming amongst them as a Jew.  Finally, given the ritual abuse of children, babies right from the beginning due to that abuse were already traumatised and corrupted.


"God is vindicated"?  Was God on "trial"?  Who are you to say that God needed "vindication"?  It amazes me how far you guys will go to try to justify the senseless slaughter of infants.  You make all sorts of excuses and then you blaspheme against God by saying that He was "vindicated" because He brought the same type of treatment on the Jews that He commanded them to do to others in the first place, all because of some discombobulated plan to eventually come down "amongst them as a Jew".  So basically you are saying that all this bloodshed and pain had to occur so that God could eventually come down and die for our sins.  That was the plan, right? 

Originally posted by Salaam Erin

Also, I would advise you to read what is said in Genesis about the Nephilim, as well as Jude's letter in the New Testament.  The 'sons of God' sinned and came down from Heaven and took the daughters of men, and had children, who were giants and conquerors.  the 12 spies sent by Moses reported that the people in Canaan were giants and to them the spies were just grasshoppers.  It seems that the people the Israelites were fighting weren't even fully human.  And before you mock, remember you believe in jinn.  ;o


Wow, another creative excuse for killing babies.  They weren't even fully human!  Funny, because that is exactly what Hitler said about the Jews...they weren't even humans!  Nazi propaganda referred to Jews as "rats" http://library.thinkquest.org/C0111500/ww2/german/naziprop.htm - [1] .  To the Nazis, the Jews were essentially animals.  That is how they justified their attempts at exterminating them.  As Deepa Kumar of the "Post-Gazette" so eloquently stated in the aftermath of the recent shootings at a Sikh temple:

"It's easier to kill people once you've dehumanized them" http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opinion/perspectives/guilt-by-association-its-easier-to-kill-people-once-youve-dehumanized-them-648009/ - [2] . 

I truly hope that you think clearly on this issue.  The things I am reading, all the excuse-making and twisted logic, is sickening. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 7:56pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- What am I? --- I became a Christian, --- that means I accepted Jesus as my Savior many years ago, in a Baptist Church, for which I thank God, and the caring people that witnessed to me about the Love of God and His provision for salvation through Jesus Christ.


Okay, now you have lost me.  You say you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you say that you became a "Christian" in a Baptist Church.  Am I crazy or don't Baptists believe that Jesus is God? 

Also, how can you claim Jesus as your "savior" if you don't believe he is God?  Isn't God the only Savior?

Originally posted by Placid

-- Now since you ask I will speak freely of what Christians believe, --- and it is through Faith in God, and an awareness of His presence with us, that gives the assurance of Eternal life, (which is also verified to Christians in the Quran, Surah 3:55).
However, I began to read and study the Bible and I learned about the faith of Abraham, our Patriarch. --- Then the many other Prophets and teachers.
In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my
--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching, which comes from ‘the Sermon on the Mount,’ Matthew 5, 6, and 7, --- and the two commandments to “Love God with all your heart,” --- And ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. --- A single verse that expresses this instruction is John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
--- “He who HEARS My word. --- The word ‘HEAR’ has the deeper meaning of --- ‘understanding and obeying’ Jesus’ teaching.
In dedicating myself to follow Jesus as He said to His disciples and Apostles, “Follow Me,” --- so I have done that. will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.


The teachings Jesus (pbuh) brought were not his, but God's.  Therefore, Jesus should not be taken as your "Lord", but only God.  Taking a man as you "Lord" is a violation of the 1st Commandment. 

Let me give you an example.  I follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), but I would never call him my "Lord".  That would be shirk, the worst possible sin.  I have only one Lord and Savior, and that is the Lord of the Worlds, Allah (swt). 

Originally posted by Placid

--- It is really like your signature verse:
--- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for God, the Cherisher of the Worlds.” (Surat al-Anaam: 162).
--- That is true dedication, so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have? --- (I’m not inviting you to be like me, --- but how are you in your present level of faith in God?) --- Can you agree with what I say next?


Anyone can give you "assurance".  That doesn't mean it is true.  Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.

To answer your question, I am fully secure in my faith.  The Quran and Sunnah promise salvation for those who believe that "there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is messenger."  This declaration of faith will be the saving grace for all who sincerely believe it.

Originally posted by Placid

I would like to make a comparison --- to becoming a true Muslim.
I understand that Islam means ‘Surrender,’ or ‘Submission,’ according to Surah 5:
3 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
--- (This seems to have been ‘imbedded’ in this verse later, because it does not suit the context, and it seems that it was revealed to Muhammad in year 10 of the Hijrah, after the victory had been won over idolatry, --- shortly before his death.)
--- And this referred to the Faith of Abraham, as in Surah 2:
132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
Yusuf Ali: 132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
--- (So to follow the Faith of Abraham makes one a ‘believer’ --- and you don’t need labels, because that tries to ‘categorize’ you, --- The word “Christian’ really means ‘Christ’s one.’
 

But by taking Jesus and your "lord and savior", you are not believing in God but in Jesus.  All the prophets taught submission to God alone, not to anyone else.  Jesus (pbuh) himself taught as much.  To follow the Faith of Abraham requires the acknowledgement of God alone and other elements of faith such as belief in all the prophets, angels, the unaltered books, the Day of Judgment etc. 

Originally posted by Placid

-- I became fascinated by the Quran, because it gives the same pattern of conversion that the Gospel does.
The first point is to Believe in God as Sovereign and Almighty. Then to believe in His word, as it says in Surah 4:
162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.
163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
164   Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; - and to Moses God spoke direct; -
165 Apostles who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against God: For God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
166 But God beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness: But enough is God for a witness.
167 Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of God, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path.
--- (So, --- to know God’s will for our lives, we have to believe these words that speak of the inspiration of the Prophets, and receive this same ‘inspiration ‘ by the Holy Spirit, before we are in this realm of Faith as a believer.


You are mixing Christian elements with Islamic ones.  The "Holy Spirit" is the Angel Gabriel (as), not an attribute of God.  Also, do you accept all the prophets mentioned in the Quran, including Muhammad (pbuh)? 

Originally posted by Placid

--- So I am a believer and ‘follower’ of Jesus like the Apostles were (and by God’s grace, will continue to be surrendered unto Him).
--- And finally, this last verse that follows gives the assurance:
3:55   Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:


But the disciples did not say that Jesus was their "lord and savior".  In fact, Jesus (pbuh) said:

""'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"" (3:51)

Only when you acknowledge Allah (swt) as the One God and Jesus (pbuh) as a righteous prophet and not your "lord and savior" and also acknowledge Muhammad (pbuh) as the prophet of God, will you be in the "Faith of Abraham", as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught:

"Narrated Abu Burda's father: Allah's Apostle said "Three persons will have a double reward: 1. A Person from the people of the scriptures who believed in his prophet (Jesus or Moses) and then believed in the prophet Muhammad (i .e. has embraced Islam). 2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master. 3. A master of a woman-slave who teaches her good manners and educates her in the best possible way (the religion) and manumits her and then marries her."" (Sahih Bukhari, 3:97)


Originally posted by Placid

Sorry, it is a little long, but you were asking. --- Would you also like to relate your testimony so that we might know your experience of Faith as well?)


Besides what I have already stated, what else would you like to know?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:57pm
Greetings islamispeace,

First let me say I find your conversation with Placid helpful.

Just curious though, and I must ask you to think about this... Will you still think it is evil if it is Islam(or the muslims, rather than the Israelites) that does this to people in the name of ridding the world of those who do not believe in Muhammad?  Do you think those intent on ridding the world of 'unbelievers' today is any different that the Israelites ridding the territory of the 'pagans' in their day?  Do you think the muslims will stop at killing babies when they see the world as dar al Islam and dar al Harb?  Will you have just as much of a problem with this issue in that scenario?  Because I think this is really the crux of the matter that needs to be addressed.  Will it be acceptable to repeat this behavior or should we have evolved?  Will you condemn it just as strongly in a new scenario?
I condemn it because I follow a new covenant of God, one that would not order killing.  I can not speak on the matter of the old testament and whether people did as God truly ordered, or if they did as they pleased.  I can say that the new covenant takes us to a higher level of intelligence, understanding, and evolution.  If the quran supports this new covenant then I have no problem with the people of the quran.

As long as your main purpose is to attack the beliefs of good people rather than being able to separate that there are good and evil in all groups of people, and seeking the common good, you serve the devils purpose of constant aggression, rather than seeking peace.  I am seeking to find the good in the people of Islam, to assure myself that their beliefs are not beliefs that will cause constant chaos and fighting in the world.  To assure myself that when evil reveals itself they will have the insight to turn from it, much as so many Germans and Polish did in saving their Jewish neighbors and friends from an evil when that evil became clear.

Salaam and thanks for your consideration,
CH


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 12 December 2012 at 8:19am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Why don't you try to answer the question?  How am I "denigrating" or "insulting" you by labeling the killing of babies as "evil"?  Are you that thin-skinned that you get "insulted" so easily? 

You insult again here - this is supposed to be about reasonable discussion but although you continually ask others to answer questions, YOU run away from them by deciding they are 'laughable' or 'ridiculous'. The whole point of discussion begins when we have adequately defined what we are talking about - in this case God.

God is not exonerated because he is God, he has a character that tells us how he acts unless for you he just acts on a whim? in this case I would say that God is loving and just - in fact this is central to Christianity and we see it most clearly in the death of Jesus on the cross. Loving in that jesus died for our sins and just in that he suffered for what others had done to satisfy his own holiness.

I will deal with the verse you quoted in another post but there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong if you consider a comparison between external intense suffering and killing babies as 'ridiculous.' Let me ask you, would you prefer to be killed as a baby or suffer the most vicious suffering for eternity?

What in these posts are you trying to demonstrate or prove - that Islam and therefore its God is superior to that of Jews and Christians? No orthodox Christian or Jew would deny there is punishment for those who reject God and that in the Bible, whether we like it or not is the Bible is the whole revelation of God and we cannot pick and choose which bits we regard as acceptable.

here you go again, everyone who debates with you gets the same response: laughable, ridiculous, excuses but you never say much more that this, you cannot face up to truth can you? Do you not see how lame your answers are - first its about God decides and suddenly its common sense - so explain why having up to 4 wives and concubines is 'common sense'?

Im glad we have some commonality over charity but does it for Islam issue out of love and does it extend to loving your enemies?


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 12 December 2012 at 8:39am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.


I assume you have not read the section because you do not quote the verse number so at this stage it looks like you do not know the context and we must know that to have any real hope of an interpretation. in fact it is verses 1-3


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 December 2012 at 8:56pm
Greetings islamispeace,

You didn't answer my questions...
"Does Islam teach about sin?  Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?  Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?"
Does Islam teach about sin?
and
Can you see then how, 'all scripture is useful for instruction'?

Thanks and Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 13 December 2012 at 7:48am
Hi Islam,

Thank you for going over my post so that we can see the things you don’t understand about Christians, --- (though you moved part of one meaningful sentence, as you can see, near the beginning). --- I had written it as follows:
“In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.
--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching,”

Quote: Okay, now you have lost me. You say you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you say that you became a "Christian" in a Baptist Church. Am I crazy or don't Baptists believe that Jesus is God?

Response: --- No, you are not crazy, just unaware of what Christians believe, --- yet you present yourself as though you do. (Perhaps the ‘flip side’ of being crazy, is suggesting that if you are not crazy, then we Christians are.)
Many Baptists will tell you they believe that Jesus is God, but that comes from a church doctrine of trinity (that is rarely discussed in Churches, but consistently on Muslim websites), which is not quite Scriptural. --- However, our salvation does not depend on our doctrinal understanding, but on our Faith in God and our obedience to Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
--- In the Quran, Jesus is called the Messiah some 8 times and if you look at the name given Him, you might understand, --- Jesus means Savior, --- and Christ means Messiah, so we believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom God has sent.

--- The confusion comes from the fact that The Word (Logos), ‘that was with God in the beginning,’ (John 1:1), --- came from heaven and indwelt the fleshly body of Jesus who was born of Mary, on earth. --- Jesus was God’s Manifestation on earth. (He said, “I and My Father are one.”) --- He had a human body, and a Divine Soul and Spirit, did He not? --- He could say as a human, I am hungry, I am thirsty, I am tired,” --- and as the Word (Logos) of God, --- He could say, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”
And He could also speak to God through Jesus, as in the prayer of Jesus in John 17:
3 “And this is Eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

--- And here is what it says about the Word (Logos) in Surah 3:
45. (And remember) when the angels said, “O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a ‘Word’ from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near unto God.
46. He will speak unto mankind from his cradle and in his manhood and he is of the righteous.”
47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?”
He said, ”So it will be, God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.

And again it says in Surah 19:
21. He (the angel) said, “So it will be, Your Lord says,’It is easy for Me, and it will be that We will make him a revelation (Sign) for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.’”
34. Such was Jesus, son of Mary, this is a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
35. It is not befitting for the (Majesty of God) that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him. When He decrees a thing He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.

--- While it is not ‘befitting’ --- and ‘out of the ordinary,’ and seemingly ‘below the Dignity of God’ that He should have one who is CALLED His son, --- but "If He decrees it," --- He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.

This comes from the original announcement in Luke 1, where the same angel Gabriel came to the same Virgin Mary and gave the same announcement some 600 years before it was revealed by the same Gabriel to Muhammad --- And this is the same angel Gabriel that ‘confirms‘ it to be true in Surah 3:3.
--- We could say, “He said it, he did it, and he confirmed it.”

--- But Gabriel was only a Messenger of God. --- He is not the Holy Spirit, or it would be said that Jesus was the son of Gabriel. --- However, here is what it says in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- You see, this is why I was fascinated in reading the Quran, because it says the same as the Gospel, which Gabriel ‘confirms’ as true.

Now if you believe the Quran, as you say you do, --- you have to believe this, do you not?
--- (Or should I ask if I am crazy for believing these things in both the Bible and the Quran?)



Placid



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 13 December 2012 at 7:29pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Bunter

You insult again here - this is supposed to be about reasonable discussion but although you continually ask others to answer questions, YOU run away from them by deciding they are 'laughable' or 'ridiculous'. The whole point of discussion begins when we have adequately defined what we are talking about - in this case God.


LOL Well, I guess that answers my question!  You really are so thin-skinned that you get "insulted" so quickly and easily. 

I answered your question, dude.  If you are too dense to understand, that is not my problem.  Childish finger pointing does not help your case.  Oh, sorry.  Did you get insulted?

Originally posted by Bunter

God is not exonerated because he is God, he has a character that tells us how he acts unless for you he just acts on a whim? in this case I would say that God is loving and just - in fact this is central to Christianity and we see it most clearly in the death of Jesus on the cross. Loving in that jesus died for our sins and just in that he suffered for what others had done to satisfy his own holiness.


So God is "loving and just" yet He ordered the killings of infants.  Right...

Originally posted by Bunter

I will deal with the verse you quoted in another post but there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong if you consider a comparison between external intense suffering and killing babies as 'ridiculous.' Let me ask you, would you prefer to be killed as a baby or suffer the most vicious suffering for eternity?


The difference is that one is innocent and yet was killed in the most brutal way while the other is guilty and deserving of punishment.  One was killed for no reason while the other had every chance to turn things around but didn't.  What kind of twisted mind does not see the difference?

To answer your question, I would rather not be murdered as a baby, but rather be given the chance at life.  Alhamdulillah, I have been given a chance at life.  I am 29 years old.  God only knows how long I will live.  But at least I was not brutally murdered by a marauding soldier allegedly doing "God's work". 

Incidentally, are you pro-life or pro-choice? 

Originally posted by Bunter

What in these posts are you trying to demonstrate or prove - that Islam and therefore its God is superior to that of Jews and Christians? No orthodox Christian or Jew would deny there is punishment for those who reject God and that in the Bible, whether we like it or not is the Bible is the whole revelation of God and we cannot pick and choose which bits we regard as acceptable.
 

Quite the contrary, Bunter!  I am not trying to demonstrate "my God" is better than "your God".  If you weren't so ignorant about Islam, you would know that I worship the God of Abraham (pbuh), as you do.  What I am trying to prove is that the Bible cannot be God's Word.  This thread is one of the proofs of this claim.  The Bible contains alleged commands by God that called for merciless destruction and baby-killing.  What kind of God-fearing person would actually believe that God would order such monstrous behavior?  This is the same God who said "thou shalt not kill".  The same God who said in the Quran that if anyone killed a person unjustly, it would be as if he had killed all of mankind (5:32).  

Originally posted by Bunter

here you go again, everyone who debates with you gets the same response: laughable, ridiculous, excuses but you never say much more that this, you cannot face up to truth can you? Do you not see how lame your answers are - first its about God decides and suddenly its common sense - so explain why having up to 4 wives and concubines is 'common sense'?


LOL Oh, grow up will ya?  You people are so touchy!   

Did God give you common sense?  Don't you just know that certain things are right or wrong?  Or like some of the other people on this forum, was common sense missing when God created you?  Oh, sorry.  You must have been insulted again!

Regarding having 4 wives and concubines, the common sense is in the fact that there are more women then men in the world.  Always have, and probably always will.  So, it makes sense to allow men to marry up to 4 wives.  Moreover, the Quran commands (and this you would have known if you had actually read it):

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." (An-Nisa, 4:3)

So, the permission to marry up to 4 wives is incumbent upon treating them all equally.  If the man finds that impossible, then he is only allowed one wife.  See?  Common sense!

Originally posted by Bunter

Im glad we have some commonality over charity but does it for Islam issue out of love and does it extend to loving your enemies?
 

It extends out of love for God.  God wants us to give in charity.  That is enough for us.  Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.  A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.  Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included). 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 12:43pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

You didn't answer my questions...
"Does Islam teach about sin?  Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?  Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?"
Does Islam teach about sin?
and
Can you see then how, 'all scripture is useful for instruction'?

Thanks and Salaam,
CH


Of course, Islam teaches about sin.  But the difference between Christians and Muslims is that Muslims do not pay lip service to God's laws while not actually following them or enforcing them.  This is what Christians like you do with the Tanakh.  You pay lip service to it but you do not actually follow it.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:11pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Thank you for going over my post so that we can see the things you don’t understand about Christians, --- (though you moved part of one meaningful sentence, as you can see, near the beginning). --- I had written it as follows:
“In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.
--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching,”


This is shirk from Islam's point of view.  By taking Jesus as your "lord and savior", you are committing a grave sin, because only God is "Lord and Savior". 

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- No, you are not crazy, just unaware of what Christians believe, --- yet you present yourself as though you do. (Perhaps the ‘flip side’ of being crazy, is suggesting that if you are not crazy, then we Christians are.)
Many Baptists will tell you they believe that Jesus is God, but that comes from a church doctrine of trinity (that is rarely discussed in Churches, but consistently on Muslim websites), which is not quite Scriptural. --- However, our salvation does not depend on our doctrinal understanding, but on our Faith in God and our obedience to Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.


I know many Christians who would disagree with you.  If I were to have approached these Christians with what you stated above as being the true Christian understanding, they would say that I don't understand Christianity, the same as you!  So, who is right?  The plain truth is that the vast majority of Christians worship Jesus as "God".  And they regard anyone who does not consider Jesus to be "God" to be outside the fold of Christianity.

Originally posted by Placid

--- In the Quran, Jesus is called the Messiah some 8 times and if you look at the name given Him, you might understand, --- Jesus means Savior, --- and Christ means Messiah, so we believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom God has sent.
 

Actually, the name "Jesus" is the Greek form of the Hebrew Yehoshuah, which means "God saves" or "Yahweh saves".  It does not mean "savior".  As I said, only God is "Savior" and that is what Jesus' name implies as well.

Originally posted by Placid

--- The confusion comes from the fact that The Word (Logos), ‘that was with God in the beginning,’ (John 1:1), --- came from heaven and indwelt the fleshly body of Jesus who was born of Mary, on earth. --- Jesus was God’s Manifestation on earth. (He said, “I and My Father are one.”) --- He had a human body, and a Divine Soul and Spirit, did He not? --- He could say as a human, I am hungry, I am thirsty, I am tired,” --- and as the Word (Logos) of God, --- He could say, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”
And He could also speak to God through Jesus, as in the prayer of Jesus in John 17:
3 “And this is Eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”


It seems the confusion is the fault of Christian doctrine itself.  Even your statements above show the contradictory nature of Christian doctrine.  You say that Jesus is not God yet then you say that "Jesus was God's Manifestation on earth".  You also say that he had "a Divine Soul and Spirit".  How can a human have a "divine soul"? 

Originally posted by Placid

45. (And remember) when the angels said, “O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a ‘Word’ from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near unto God.
46. He will speak unto mankind from his cradle and in his manhood and he is of the righteous.”
47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?”
He said, ”So it will be, God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.


Yes, and this is the same "word" through which God created Adam (pbuh) as well:

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59)

All mankind was created the same way.  That includes Jesus (pbuh) as well.

Originally posted by Placid

-- While it is not ‘befitting’ --- and ‘out of the ordinary,’ and seemingly ‘below the Dignity of God’ that He should have one who is CALLED His son, --- but "If He decrees it," --- He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.


It is below the Dignity of God, whether you say that Jesus was simply "called" God's "son" or as other Christians believe, he was "literally" God's "son", it is no different than what the Arab pagans believed about God.  The only difference was that they believed that He had daughters!

Originally posted by Placid

This comes from the original announcement in Luke 1, where the same angel Gabriel came to the same Virgin Mary and gave the same announcement some 600 years before it was revealed by the same Gabriel to Muhammad --- And this is the same angel Gabriel that ‘confirms‘ it to be true in Surah 3:3.
--- We could say, “He said it, he did it, and he confirmed it.”


There is a HUGE difference between the two.  Luke claims that Mary (as) was given glad tidings of a son who would be "God's son" as well.  The Quran makes no such statement, as you showed above.  Mary (as) was simply given glad tidings of a son who would be God's prophet.

Originally posted by Placid

--- But Gabriel was only a Messenger of God. --- He is not the Holy Spirit, or it would be said that Jesus was the son of Gabriel. --- However, here is what it says in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.


That is your belief, not the belief of Muslims.  To us, the "Holy Spirit" is a created being, Gabriel (as).  It is irrelevant what Luke stated.  Muslims don't follow the Gospels for precisely this reason.  The Quran clearly states that Gabriel (as) is the Holy Spirit:

"Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims." (16:102)

Originally posted by Placid

--- You see, this is why I was fascinated in reading the Quran, because it says the same as the Gospel, which Gabriel ‘confirms’ as true.


I disagree. The Quran may share some similarities with the "Gospels" but it differs in many places.  Some examples have already been provided by both you and I.  The verses you referred to, ironically, show the great differences between the Quran and the Gospels.

Originally posted by Placid

Now if you believe the Quran, as you say you do, --- you have to believe this, do you not?
--- (Or should I ask if I am crazy for believing these things in both the Bible and the Quran?)
 

I think you are wrong, not crazy.  The Quran does not tell Muslims that they have to believe the "Gospels".  It does not say to Muslims to believe in the "Gospel of Luke" or the "Gospel of Matthew".  It tells Muslims that the Quran is the final word and that is what they should believe. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:20pm
Hi Islam,

Quote: --- Also, how can you claim Jesus as your "savior" if you don't believe he is God? Isn't God the only Savior?

Response: --- As I explained on a different topic, it says in the Prophecy in Isaiah 7:
14. Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
And this is fulfilled in Matthew 1:
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


Just before this it said in Matthew 1:
20 Behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him (Joseph) in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
--- And it says in Luke 1:
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

God is God --- Jesus is the Savior.
As it says in John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

--- (You may not understand this, but you can study it later. ---The Israelites had sinned and turned away from God, and God sent fiery serpents among them to weed out the unfaithful ones.
--- This was a ‘test of Faith,’ written in Numbers 21:
6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8. Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.”
9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.)

--- Note that many died, but those who turned their Faith to God, repented and asked Moses again to help them. --- God gave them this ‘test of Faith and obedience,’ --- to ‘look,’ or put Faith in God’s provision. --- This serpent on the pole was a symbol of the Son of Man, --- Jesus, --- being lifted up on the cross, --- and those who “Look on Him in Faith and obedience,” can be saved.

--- (This is another little side note but often on signs on Pharmacies or Drug Stores, they have the symbol of a ‘serpent on a pole.’ --- And that comes from this Scripture in Numbers 21.)

--- To continue from 14 “Even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (on a cross),
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten (Unique) Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
--- So it is 'through' Jesus that we are saved, this is the core of the Gospel Message.


Placid



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 3:25pm
islamispeace (?)

How is it that you excuse your rudeness by saying others who call attention to it are thin skinned?  It has little to do with being 'thin skinned', and only to do with you and your need for rudeness in conversation.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 4:32pm
Hi Again,

You have many questions so I will just keep answering them.
Quote: The teachings Jesus (pbuh) brought were not his, but God's. Therefore, Jesus should not be taken as your "Lord", but only God. Taking a man as you "Lord" is a violation of the 1st Commandment.

Response: --- Jesus was a Messenger of God, also the Savior, Redeemer and Messiah, --- though He came as a Servant. Jesus said in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (You see, Jesus words were the Gospel Message that God gave to Him, mentioned in Surah 3:48-49, --- and 5:46-47.
--- This says, “He who HEARS Jesus’ words (who receives His words with understanding), --- and believes in Him (God) who sent Him (Jesus), --- shall not come into judgment, but has already passed from spiritual death --- to Spiritual life.


Quote: Let me give you an example. I follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), but I would never call him my "Lord".

Response: --- Do you really follow the teachings of Muhammad?
When I was told by a Moderator, “If you want to know about Islam, read the Quran,” --- I thought, how wonderful, it is all here, I will find out what they believe.

--- I checked what God gave Muhammad to teach, --- like Surah 3:
2 God! There is no God but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book ---- (and others which are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking to cause dissension by seeking to explain it.) --- None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

--- I thought, Wow! --- I can agree with this.
2 God is Almighty and Eternal.
3 He sent down the teaching in truth step by step, ‘confirming’ the former Scriptures (without error) in the same way He sent down the Torah, (Law) to Moses, and the Gospel (Injil) to Jesus.
4 The ‘criterion of right and wrong’ --- The Ten Commandments to Moses and Aaron, (Surah 21:48)
7 The basics of the Book, Old and New Testament, and the ‘confirmation’ in the Quran, --- (and the division of those who argue about the truth which God revealed) --- Then the proclamation that no one knows the interpretation except God (and those He reveals it to), --- then the conclusion that the whole Book of the the Scriptures is from the Lord, --- but only men of understanding, really get it.

This said to me that since Muhammad was called to be a messenger of God in 600 AD, and the angel Gabriel confirming everything that he revealed to Zechariah and Mary in the Gospels proves that everything that follows is true, because, if it wasn’t, --- Gabriel would not have approved it, would he?


Placid




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