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Divorce

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24169
Printed Date: 23 April 2014 at 5:58am


Topic: Divorce
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: Divorce
Date Posted: 30 October 2012 at 2:52am
As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu
The reason for this thread is to discern what people feel about the issue of divorce in societies today. Not very long ago divorce was frowned upon and people who divorced were thought of as outcasts in society and some were mariginalised and pitied. However, the divorce rate of today is astronomical throughout the world, transcending religion, culture and ethinicity.
In Islam divorce is approved and granted religiously and culturally, so what I've found out is that there is a high percentage of divorce rate within Muslims. If I can give an example of divorce in India and Pakistan, the divorce rate is very high in Pakistan than in India. Of course, Pakistan is an Islamic country and India has a mixture of religions and cultures within. In India it is still frowned upon if people decide to divorce, this is mainly in the Hindu and Christian cultures.
 
In the West, the divorce rate is soaring for varying reasons. I remember not long ago the mention of divorce was quiet shameful for a couple living in the West, but over time divorce rate increased and became the 'norm.' Nowadays if a man has grown tired of his wife because of her looks or she has put on extra pounds of flesh, all he has to do is look for a younger and prettier wife.
 
The answer to the question of divorce is pretty obvious but I want members here to have an input into the reason they think divorce is becoming popular.
 
If divorce was prohibited religiously, morally and culturally would there be less instances of divorce tthroughout the world?
 
Salaam



Replies:
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 30 October 2012 at 7:16am
Originally posted by Abu Loren



so what I've found out is that there is a high percentage of divorce rate within Muslims. If I can give an example of divorce in India and Pakistan, the divorce rate is very high in Pakistan than in India. Of course, Pakistan is an Islamic country and India has a mixture of religions and cultures within. In India it is still frowned upon if people decide to divorce, this is mainly in the Hindu and Christian cultures.


Interesting theory of yours. Any stats to support this?

-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 30 October 2012 at 7:31am
It is much easier for a Muslim man to get a divorce, if religion sets the rules (talaq i.e. 9 words and that's it). In the West, the looking for a young trophy wife is a stereotype, because when celebrities do it and can afford it, it gets media attention.

There are numerous reasons for increasing divorce rates: stress, pressure, selfishness, lack of conflict management skills, declining peer pressure not to divorce and so forth. To me personally, the number one reason is increasing perfectionism. People foolishly expect perfect weddings and perfect partners. Instead people have to learn to live with an imperfect partner. Accepting imperfection is the key to a lasting marriage.

Yes, if divorce was prohibited religiously, morally and culturally there would be lower divorce rates. Check out the history of Catholic countries such as Ireland. But this can be problematic. What if the husband is a tyrant?



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 30 October 2012 at 7:35am
I searched for worldwide statistics of divorce rates, but couldn't find a list with all countries. This one lists the top 34

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 30 October 2012 at 7:51am
Well, looks like some are reconciling after divorce...maybe it wasn't so bad after all.
 
http://www1.umn.edu/news/news-releases/2011/UR_CONTENT_316404.html - http://www1.umn.edu/news/news-releases/2011/UR_CONTENT_316404.html
 
 

Turns out that divorce may not be "the end" for many couples after all.

According to one new http://www1.umn.edu/news/news-releases/2011/UR_CONTENT_316404.html - , a significant number of divorcing parents were open to saving their marriage and would even try professional reconciliation services -- despite having already filed for divorce.

The report, released in late September, surveyed nearly 2,500 divorcing couples with children. Participants were asked, "Even at this point, do you think your divorce could be prevented if one or both of you works hard to save the marriage?" They were also asked to respond "yes," "no" or "maybe" to the following statement: "If the court offered a reconciliation service, I would seriously consider trying it."

The findings were surprising: either one or both partners in about 45 percent of couples indicated that they still had hope for the marriage as well as a possible interest in reconciliation. Overall, men were more likely to say that their marriage could be saved and were more willing to try a professional reconciliation service.

The study's conclusions lay the groundwork for a legislative proposal aimed to reduce the number of "unnecessary" divorces in the U.S. "The Second Chances Act," http://www.americanvalues.org/ - (a conservative organization designed to "strengthen families"), proposes a one-year waiting period for divorce and mandatory education about reconciliation for couples with minor children.

We asked http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-j-doherty-phd - , a family social science professor at the University of Minnesota and the study's lead researcher, to help us get a better understanding of these findings.

HP: Based on your findings, more men than women believed that their marriage could still be saved with hard work--specifically, about 1 in 3 men as compared to 1 in 5 women. Men were also more likely to be willing to try a reconciliation service. Were you surprised by these results?

WD: I was not surprised, because I think that the function of who initiates the breakup is important and often more women initiate the breakup of marriages than men do. So the person that is broken-up on is more likely to be the one who wants to try to save it. So I think that's what we have: that women, or the person who is thinking of the divorce, doesn't talk about it very much. They may talk to their friends about it, they may take to their therapists about it. But the one who is broken-up upon--"the leavee"--is usually surprised when the announcement comes. And it takes them a while to get their minds around what's happening...and they would really like to try to save it. The person who is "the leaver" has been rehearsing this for months or years--and they are therefore less apt, although it's something that they still do, they're less apt to be thinking of getting help for reconciling.

HP: In your study, individuals who were "earlier" in the divorce process were also more likely to think that their marriage could be saved. Do you have any ideas why this might be, from a therapist's point of view?

WD: A lot of damage gets done in the divorce process itself. The further along you are [in the divorce process], the closer you are to the disillusion of the marriage. The more chances there are to feel like you're being shafted by your spouse. The more likely someone has a new boyfriend or girlfriend. The more likely, even the person who did not want the divorce--the more they're likely they are to resign themselves to it. So, we have data now from three stages--from the lawyer's office, to right after filing, to after taking a class. At each earlier stage there's more ambivalence about the divorce and more openness to getting help.

HP: Among those surveyed, 54 percent indicated that they had received marriage counseling. Did you see any connection between those with counseling to those who believed that their marriage could possibly be saved?


WD: No, that was one of the interesting things. We looked at predictors of who might be interested in reconciliation services...and whether they had marriage counseling or not did not matter.

HP: Overall, what does your research tells about the divorce process?

WD: There's a lot more ambivalence about "following through" on the divorce than anyone of us realized. The outsider's perspective is that when people decide to get divorced and contact the lawyer and so on--it's over. We all line up accordingly. The marriage counselors decide to do divorce counseling, and the family members say things they never said before about your spouse. But inside a marriage, there is a lot more ambivalence and volatility. And that's what we've learned. We now have a project where we're working with these couples that are interested in help, and that's what we see: that week-to-week, and month-to-month, people change their minds.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=turns%20out%20that%20divorce%20may%20not%20be%20the%20end%20for%20many%20couples%20after%20all.&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2011%2F10%2F21%2Fmarital-reconciliation-qa_n_1008107.html&ei=3eyPUKOrKqTAiwKG04HoDQ&usg=AFQjCNE7bFhBke9QFLRy_08AXsR90G6rRA - - Marital Reconciliation: Divorcing Couples With Children Often Open

 



Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

If divorce was prohibited religiously, morally and culturally would there be less instances of divorce tthroughout the world?
 
Salaam

I think it would but it would be very torturous life. Why would I, or any of us stay together with the hated one, because religion or somebody's opinion or the surrounding custom forbids the separation? In many cases separation is blessing for us, and I found it so. Just like death which is the great blessing for us, which most of us feared by it.

The bulk majority of reason in divorce cases are the third party involvement: friends, neighbors, cousins, uncles, aunties, brothers, sisters, parents, children and who else.

Another reason is controlling.
The husband states that his wife must stays home, that is control. The wife insist in handling the finance, another method of control. You know some people living in this world by instruction of somebody else. Commonsense sound like an abnormality.

Another reason is boring face.
For an example a couple been married for 30 or more years and all this time they busy with their own works whatever that is. So the time for retirement finally arrived, and what happen? They get bored seeing their beloved partner for all sudden always in the front of their noses every minute. A day feel like a century, because they don't know what to do with their time.

Economic reason is distant no:4.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 12:28am
Originally posted by Chrysalis

Originally posted by Abu Loren



so what I've found out is that there is a high percentage of divorce rate within Muslims. If I can give an example of divorce in India and Pakistan, the divorce rate is very high in Pakistan than in India. Of course, Pakistan is an Islamic country and India has a mixture of religions and cultures within. In India it is still frowned upon if people decide to divorce, this is mainly in the Hindu and Christian cultures.


Interesting theory of yours. Any stats to support this?
 
As'alaamu Alaikkum
 
I cannot provide any stats, however if you trawl through the internet there are many articles which in fact do state that there are a significant higher rate of divorce in Pakistan than in India per capita. It is also true that the subject of divorce is still taboo in India even in the 21st century.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 12:33am
Originally posted by nothing

Originally posted by Abu Loren

If divorce was prohibited religiously, morally and culturally would there be less instances of divorce tthroughout the world?
 
Salaam

I think it would but it would be very torturous life. Why would I, or any of us stay together with the hated one, because religion or somebody's opinion or the surrounding custom forbids the separation? In many cases separation is blessing for us, and I found it so. Just like death which is the great blessing for us, which most of us feared by it.

The bulk majority of reason in divorce cases are the third party involvement: friends, neighbors, cousins, uncles, aunties, brothers, sisters, parents, children and who else.

Another reason is controlling.
The husband states that his wife must stays home, that is control. The wife insist in handling the finance, another method of control. You know some people living in this world by instruction of somebody else. Commonsense sound like an abnormality.

Another reason is boring face.
For an example a couple been married for 30 or more years and all this time they busy with their own works whatever that is. So the time for retirement finally arrived, and what happen? They get bored seeing their beloved partner for all sudden always in the front of their noses every minute. A day feel like a century, because they don't know what to do with their time.

Economic reason is distant no:4.
 
Interesting comment Mr. nothing. When you look at the examples of arranged marriages in India, for example, you see that people do stay together till death even if they are unhappy. Now you can argue that it is a torurous life for the couple concerned, on the other hand you have to admire them for staying together even if unhappily.
 
Who knows the answers? May be this is one of the reasons why Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has granted Muslims to divorce. Allahu Alum!


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 7:04am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Interesting comment Mr. nothing. When you look at the examples of arranged marriages in India, for example, you see that people do stay together till death even if they are unhappy. Now you can argue that it is a torurous life for the couple concerned, on the other hand you have to admire them for staying together even if unhappily.
 
Who knows the answers? May be this is one of the reasons why Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has granted Muslims to divorce. Allahu Alum!
 
Not sure what is admirable about being unhappy and not trying to find their happiness.
Its not a command from Allah to choose an unhappy life.
 
Are these people willingly in an unhappy situation or forced to choose?
 
When the divorce rate in the west is as high as 50% the flip side of the coin tells us 50% of couples are leading a 'happy married life'. Whereas in India, where the divorce rate is pretty low in comparison, how many of the so called married couples are happy? We don't have this stats.
 
India is a society that forces people to choose to compromise. Everybody wants to mind everybody else's business. Divorce is frowned upon but misery is not. Its a sign of unhealthiness.
 
Im glad in Islam we have a choice in this matter - the devine permission for divorce is a blessing!
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 9:16am
Originally posted by nothing

Another reason is boring face.
 
Wow, hopefully that's an oversimplification or euphemistic for some larger and deeper reason.Smile


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 9:54am
Originally posted by Nausheen

 
Not sure what is admirable about being unhappy and not trying to find their happiness.
Its not a command from Allah to choose an unhappy life.
 
Are these people willingly in an unhappy situation or forced to choose?
 
When the divorce rate in the west is as high as 50% the flip side of the coin tells us 50% of couples are leading a 'happy married life'. Whereas in India, where the divorce rate is pretty low in comparison, how many of the so called married couples are happy? We don't have this stats.
 
India is a society that forces people to choose to compromise. Everybody wants to mind everybody else's business. Divorce is frowned upon but misery is not. Its a sign of unhealthiness.
 
Im glad in Islam we have a choice in this matter - the devine permission for divorce is a blessing!
 
 
Arranged marriages are just that, forced against their will. Usually what happens in an arranged marriage is the two families concerned get together and they decide between themselves that their son and daughter will et married. Then they tell the bride and groom when their wedding is. I know from many people that they did not like the choice of their spouse and if they had a choice they would not marry that person. However, there are many instances where these people 'fall in love' over time and they are devoted to each other for the remainder of their lives. On the flip side, there are so many unhappy marriages where the bride and groom do no compromise.
 
We can also argue that 'love marriages' are also prone to the exact same scenario as above. People fall in love thinking that they have found their ideal partner, then after a 'honeymoon' period they decide to divorce for whatever reasons.
 
Marriage is not an exact science. May be the answer is indeed in compromising and accepting the faults of the other person.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 10:58am

When poverty comes in the door love flies out the window. ...

The saddest thing in the world is loving someone who used to love you. ~ Anonymous

Unrequited love is a ridiculous state, and it makes those in it behave ridiculously. ~ Cassandra Clare

Every broken heart has screamed at one time or another: "Why can't you see who I truly am?" ~ Shannon L. Alder

Ask me why I keep on loving you when it's clear that you don't feel the same way for me. The problem is that as much as I can't force you to love me, I can't force myself to stop loving you. ~ Anonymous

There's nothing quite so humbling as thinking you're completely over someone, then realizing you're not even close. ~ Brian Strause, Maybe a Miracle

“The only thing more unthinkable than leaving was staying; the only thing more impossible than staying was leaving. I didn't want to destroy anything or anybody. I just wanted to slip quietly out the back door, without causing any fuss or consequences, and then not stop running until I reached Greenland.”  E Gilbert

 

“The remedy for most marital stress is not in divorce. It is in repentance and forgiveness, in sincere expressions of charity and service. It is not in separation. It is in simple integrity that leads a man and a woman to square up their shoulders and meet their obligations. It is found in the Golden Rule, a time-honored principle that should first and foremost find expression in marriage.”  G Hinkley

 

“Nice people don't necessarily fall in love with nice people.”  J. Franzen

 

“But in the real world, you couldnt really just split a family down the middle, mom on one side, dad the other, with the child equally divided between. It was like when you ripped a piece of paper into two: no matter how you tried, the seams never fit exactly right again. It was what you couldn't see, those tiniest of pieces, that were lost in the severing, and their absence kept everything from being complete.”   S. Dessen

“Divorce isn't such a tragedy. A tragedy's staying in an unhappy marriage, teaching your children the wrong things about love. Nobody ever died of divorce.”   J. Weiner

 

“He went on for some time while I sat listening in silence because I knew he was right, and like two people who have loved each other however imperfectly, who have tried to make a life together, however imperfectly, who have lived side by side and watched the wrinkles slowly form at the corner of the other's eyes, and watched a little drop of gray, as if poured from a jug, drop into the other's skin and spread itself evenly, listening to the other's coughs and sneezes and little collected mumblings, like two people who'd had one idea together and slowly allowed that idea to be replaced with two separate, less hopeful, less ambitious ideas, we spoke deep into the night, and the next day, and the next night. For forty days and forty nights, I want to say, but the fact of the matter is it only took three. One of us had loved the other more perfectly, had watched the other more closely, and one of us listened and the other hadn't, and one of us held on to the ambition of the one idea far longer than was reasonable, whereas the other, passing a garbage can one night, had casually thrown it away.”   N. Krauss

 

“In every marriage more than a week old, there are grounds for divorce. The trick is to find and continue to find grounds for marriage.”  R. Anderson

 

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: 

It is narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The most hated of permissible things to Allaah is divorce.” This hadeeth is not saheeh, but its meaning is sound: Allaah hates divorce, but He does not forbid it to His slaves, so as to make things easier for them.



Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren



Arranged marriages are just that, forced against their will. Usually what happens in an arranged marriage is the two families concerned get together and they decide between themselves that their son and daughter will et married. Then they tell the bride and groom when their wedding is. I know from many people that they did not like the choice of their spouse and if they had a choice they would not marry that person.



I don't think you are familiar with the concept of an 'Arranged Marriage'. In an arranged marriage, a couple is introduced through relatives or acquaintances, if the boy/girl like the potential spouse, they proceed. Usually the Boy's parents propose to the girl's family and they accept or reject on behalf of the girl.

It is not a 'forced marriage'. Both the boy and girl have an opportunity to say No or decline the marriage. Just because some muslims fall victim to social pressure to marry a certain person does not mean Arranged Marriages = Forced Marriages.

It can be a difficult concept to grasp for New muslims raised in the west or western non-muslims.


-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 2:25pm
Interesting that this came up today as an active topic.  I was just contemplating this morning the fact that in Islam divorce does not seem to carry the same stigma that it has in other religion and culture.  I wanted to ask, since divorce seems to be so acceptable, and common, in Islam (which was a surprising shock for me to learn actually), can anyone share with me what effect it has on the children in the family?  Or do you feel it is of no consequence to children in Muslim community?
Thanks.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

  Or do you feel it is of no consequence to children in Muslim community?
Thanks.
 
"sigh"


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 
Arranged marriages are just that, forced against their will. Usually what happens in an arranged marriage is the two families concerned get together and they decide between themselves that their son and daughter will et married. Then they tell the bride and groom when their wedding is. I know from many people that they did not like the choice of their spouse and if they had a choice they would not marry that person. However, there are many instances where these people 'fall in love' over time and they are devoted to each other for the remainder of their lives. On the flip side, there are so many unhappy marriages where the bride and groom do no compromise.
 
We can also argue that 'love marriages' are also prone to the exact same scenario as above. People fall in love thinking that they have found their ideal partner, then after a 'honeymoon' period they decide to divorce for whatever reasons.
 
Marriage is not an exact science. May be the answer is indeed in compromising and accepting the faults of the other person.
 
Your original post was about divorce, but now you are explaining to us the difference between love and arranged marriages. Are you sure what exactly you want to discuss hereShocked Just wondering Tongue
 
Relationships are not an exact science at all. The relationship I have with my parents is not the same as my brothers - who was raised by the same set of parents in the same family. This is how different we all are.
 
Allah has said in the Quran that He made us to proceed from a pair and created diversity within us so that we may know eachother. SubhanAllah, there is volumes said in this little portion.  He created us with diversity so that we may know eachother.
 
Guess, this is why no relationship equation can be a carbon copy of another.
 
Cannot say for sure which type of marriage is more likely to be doomed. However, the times we are living in, pateince is wanning from our temperaments, forgiveness and easygoing attitudes are becoming less and less common - people need to be generous and accomodating in order for any relationship to continue.
Have always beleived that every marriage has the potential to survive or break - it takes two to tango!
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Interesting that this came up today as an active topic.  I was just contemplating this morning the fact that in Islam divorce does not seem to carry the same stigma that it has in other religion and culture.  I wanted to ask, since divorce seems to be so acceptable, and common, in Islam (which was a surprising shock for me to learn actually), can anyone share with me what effect it has on the children in the family?  Or do you feel it is of no consequence to children in Muslim community?
Thanks.
 
Not sure what you think of us, but we are surely not from Jupiter Tongue 
 
Not that I know how people live on Jupiter, but, as long as we all are living on the same planet, here, we are affected by the same bugs and pick up behaviors from the very same environment. Smile
 
Can't speak of muslims elsewhere - rather I want to be educated when it comes to divorce. In India, where I am from, divorces are really slow. its on the rise mostly within the couples who are 'Non Resident Indians' in other countries, eg; in the UK or US. As for Indians, in India, the story is very much like what you can find in Abu Loren's posts.
 
One big reason for potential survival of a lousy marriage in our country is family. We live within huge families, and they for most part 'buffer' small issues.
However, there are other cases also where families create biggest trouble - then I think the friction helps the couple bond tighter together 'at the face of adversity'
Divorce happens only in extreme cases.
This is the case with all, be they Hindus, Muslims, sikhs, or christians - we are more Indian than anything else and our culture simply frowns on divorce.
 
>>can anyone share with me what effect it has on the children in the family? <<
 
It is better to come from a broken home than to live in one. Have you ever heard that?
 
I dont think anyone gets married with a divorce as their aim. When things don't seems to work, again no one in their sane mind would pack their bags  and call it quits at the first show of  trouble - however divorces do happen - in some cases they are better than otherwise.  What happens to children? It depends on how their parents handle the break-up, I guess.
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 7:35pm
buayisha
Originally posted by abuayisha

Originally posted by Caringheart

  Or do you feel it is of no consequence to children in Muslim community?
Thanks.
 
"sigh"


Greetings abuayisha,

I sincerely would appreciate an answer.
If you sigh, you have an opinion.
Instead of just sighing could you please share that opinion for me to understand.
Thanks,
CH

different cultures have different structuring of families.  Perhaps in a different structure the importance of the pivotal relationship... i.e., mother and father, does not carry so much weight.  I don't know.  I would like to know.
One of the biggest problems in the west is the failure of the family structure.  This has a damaging effect on the stability of society as a whole.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 7:41pm
Greetings Nausheen,

I think divorce happens when God is not at the center of the marriage from the beginning.  People looking too much for what they want from each other instead of both seeking to serve in ways that please God.  When both are focused on God they are striving towards the same focal point.  When they focus too much on each other they are headed for collision.  I have heard it put this way and I see the truth in it.

It's nice to have you around again.
It surprised me for you to say you are in India.  I don't know why. Smile

Oh, regarding the 'not from Jupiter' comment... lol
It's just that I would expect anything sanctioned by God would be reverenced as much in all the Abrahamic religions.
To me it's not a culture thing.  It's a God thing... man and woman created for each other... in union... by God... the two shall become one.  Well if they have become one does it make sense they can be ripped apart?  He created one man... one woman.  He didn't say here's one but when it doesn't work out I'll create another for you.  Wink


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 1:04am
Originally posted by Chrysalis



I don't think you are familiar with the concept of an 'Arranged Marriage'. In an arranged marriage, a couple is introduced through relatives or acquaintances, if the boy/girl like the potential spouse, they proceed. Usually the Boy's parents propose to the girl's family and they accept or reject on behalf of the girl.

It is not a 'forced marriage'. Both the boy and girl have an opportunity to say No or decline the marriage. Just because some muslims fall victim to social pressure to marry a certain person does not mean Arranged Marriages = Forced Marriages.

It can be a difficult concept to grasp for New muslims raised in the west or western non-muslims.
 
I do know what I'm talking about as I am Indian and have been around arranged marriages all of my life. The thing is some arranged marriages are forced where the bride and groom listens to their parents and family in whom they should marry. They don't have a voice. I am not talking just about Muslim marriages but marriages in general.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 5:25am
The psychologist David Myers compares divorce with the amputation of a leg. He points out that doctors and patients try everything to save the leg before they are willing to use a saw and live with a stump.

Today, too many people it seems, when they fall off a bike and hit the asphalt, instead of letting the abrasions heal, they get rid of the whole leg.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 5:29am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

The psychologist David Myers compares divorce with the amputation of a leg. He points out that doctors and patients try everything to save the leg before they are willing to use a saw and live with a stump.

Today, too many people it seems, when they fall off a bike and hit the asphalt, instead of letting the abrasions heal, they get rid of the whole leg.

 
This is very true however the replacement, sometimes, can be better surely?


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 9:52am
Was going to talk about this amputation analogy, but you got here before I did :)
 
Wanted to bring up another point. I know that divorce is seen as a stigma in western society. At the same time however, sincere and conscious westerners have devoted a great deal of time and effort to address this problem. The amount of material found from the west - on saving marriages, how to make it better etc etc overwhelmingly outnumbers the help one can find in other cultures - like my culture.
 
Cutting off the limb when a wound can be healed is impatience.  On the other hand too much of patience can also be a problem - living ones entire life with gangrene is not a smart decision when we know that this life is only for once.
 
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 
I do know what I'm talking about as I am Indian and have been around arranged marriages all of my life. The thing is some arranged marriages are forced where the bride and groom listens to their parents and family in whom they should marry. They don't have a voice. I am not talking just about Muslim marriages but marriages in general.
 
Dito. Im an Indian and can echo your words. There is so much of psychological pressure to say 'yes'. Its as if ones parents own them and they can dispose their children whatever way they find suitable (and they know more of this world etc. etc.). Another things is, they start ringing the wedding bells so early in life, one does not have the confidence to stand-up and say no - for whatever reason.
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,

I think divorce happens when God is not at the center of the marriage from the beginning.  People looking too much for what they want from each other instead of both seeking to serve in ways that please God.  When both are focused on God they are striving towards the same focal point.  When they focus too much on each other they are headed for collision.  I have heard it put this way and I see the truth in it.

It's nice to have you around again.
It surprised me for you to say you are in India.  I don't know why. Smile

Oh, regarding the 'not from Jupiter' comment... lol
It's just that I would expect anything sanctioned by God would be reverenced as much in all the Abrahamic religions.
To me it's not a culture thing.  It's a God thing... man and woman created for each other... in union... by God... the two shall become one.  Well if they have become one does it make sense they can be ripped apart?  He created one man... one woman.  He didn't say here's one but when it doesn't work out I'll create another for you.  Wink
 
Greetings to you CaringHeart.
 
Its always good to come back.
 
Im not in India, rather an Indian whos stuck in Japan :) Why are you surprised Smile
 
Cant agree more when one talks about bringing God in the middle of the marriage and giving Him centre stage.
Tell me what could one do if only one of the two partners has this aim close and dear to their heart. Not just that, when practicing religion - how religion should be taught to kids etc becomes an issue in marriage . Have seen many non practicing husbands who loathe their wives for performing their fundamental religious duties. These wives are angles, I'd say.  But, happiness, bliss is out of the window.
 
Not sure if God created a 1:1 ratio between men and women. What if someone's spouse dies very early. Should they remain single for the rest of their lives?
 
>>He didn't say here's one but when it doesn't work out I'll create another for you.<<
 
Its said in the Quran we will be asked if we found His earth so small as not to be able to move away from mess (fitna). In other words the Quran is saying we shld either clean our mess or if its too big for us to handle, we shld move out of it.
The religion cares about ones mental health. Marriages are designed to give one mental and emotional comfort - when this is not happening, its a disfunctional marriage - am not saying one shld ampute the limb before the gangrene has set in. But what shld one do when it has?
 
On a psychology forum there is a person married for more than 50 years. His wife is suffering from a personality disorder - she gives him hell of a time and he is trying every which way to keep himself together. Amazing guy, hats off to him. He is trying to learn about his wife's disorder, and how to handle his own stresses, emotional issues etc, but have never even thought of as much as having an extra marital affair. He is a perfect image of loyalty and fidelity. Not sure how many people have the courage to be like this person. If there were more ppl like him, our world would be a perfect placeSmile
 
However, Caringheart, there is a time to call it quits or life will slip away before we even know.
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:25pm
Greetings Nausheen,

What you said about being in unhappy marriage.  Isn't the burden of responsibility on us?  If we seek to please God then we will find what we seek.  We will do what is required of us.
We expect too much because we want our will and not God's.
Isn't it about being submitted to the will of God?
In Islam it is taught that this life is a test, right?
In the same way, for me, I feel that we are all given our 'crosses to bear' in this life.
God has His purposes, and whether or not we accept His will, is the heart of the matter.

When marriage is a choice and a commitment that we make before God...
even when marriage is arranged by the family...
aren't we responsible for building love?
Love is different than infatuation
There is a scene I always loved from the musical, Fiddler on the Roof.  I don't know if you've ever seen the movie.  It's the scene where the husband says to his wife... "Goldie, do you love me?"  and she says for 25 years I've cooked your meals, cleaned your house... 25 years my bed is his... if that's not love, what is?"  and he says, "then you love me" and she says, "I suppose I do"  and he responds, "and I suppose I love you too".  The joy in the discovery of this truth, this love, is felt.
It highlighted, for me, the nature of real love.  Love is a thing we build.
It's all in the definition, it's all about the commitment.  Love... real love... agape love... comes from actions, not feelings.
In the Bible there are three types of love spoken of
there is eros - this is infatuation or lustful attraction... short lived
philia - the kind of love you have for your family
and agape - self sacrificing love... the truest kind of love... Godly love

I think God wants us to learn agape love and He gives what is needed to develop that love, and to see if we will be obedient to His will and not our own.

This is why marriage is never meant to be entered into lightly.  It is a lifelong commitment that may require great sacrifice.
I also heard something recently that talked about the ups and downs in life... a friend of mine once told me a similar thing... anyway, this radio program was talking about how if people would just recognize, like they once did, that you go through rough patches in a marriage and if you will just wait them out, it is in this process that we grow... that God grows us if we turn to Him and let Him sustain us.  It is through these things that the love grows bigger and deeper... because we grow as individuals.  It is this that makes love later in life so wonderful, and so strong, and so worthwhile... knowing you got through it, together... that you forgave each other things and grew stronger, grew to be better people.  Marriage is meant to grow us.  It is the covenant God gives to grow us.  (See marriage to me, is known as 'the covenant of marriage', because it is ordained and blessed by God)  If we abandon it we abandon our growth... the growth God wants for us.

It is best for happiness of course if both persons are committed to this growth... to becoming better people for one another.  This is why I say God must be at the center, but if He is not you must pray for your spouse asking God to work the change in their heart.  You must 'bear your cross' and leave it up to God... to His will.  I have heard many stories of how this kind of love and forebearance brought about the necessary changes in people, which is of course God's will and His plan all along.  Then happiness comes.  Life is quite often an exercise in patience.  Nothing grows a person like learning patience and grace.

If God takes a spouse then we must believe that is also part of His plan for us.  If God takes a spouse then there is no reason not to marry again, if God sends another.

These are my views.

Here's the whole lyrics of the song.  It's a great show to watch if you can.
Tevye: Do you love me?
Golde: Do I what?
Tevye: Do you love me?

Golde: Do I love you?
With our daughters getting married and this trouble in the town,
You're upset. You want out. Go inside. Go lie down.
Maybe it's indigestion.

Tevye: Golde, I'm asking you a question. Do you love me?
Golde: You're a fool!
Tevye: I know. But do you love me?

Golde: Do I love you?
For twenty-five years, I've washed your clothes,
Cooked your meals, cleaned your house,
Given you children, milked the cow.
After twenty-five years, why talk about love right now?

Tevye: The first time I met you was on our wedding day. I was scared.
Golde: I was shy.
Tevye: I was nervous.
Golde: So was I.

Tevye: But my father and my mother said we'd learn to love each other.
So, now I'm asking, Golde...
Tevye: Do you love me?
Golde: I'm your wife!
Tevye: I know. But do you love me?

Golde: Do I love him?
For twenty-five years, I've lived with him,
Fought with him, starved with him.
For twenty-five years, my bed is his.
If that's not love, what is?

Tevye: Then you love me?
Golde: I suppose I do.
Tevye: And I suppose I love you, too.
Together: It doesn't change a thing, but even so,
After twenty-five years, it's nice to know

and boy, did I ever end up having a lot to say?  I always have known how to make a short story, long.  Wink  lol

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 11:45pm
Greetings Caringheart,

Thank you for your post. No it was not long - I liked reading every bit of it.

I would also like to agree with all of it. Apart from one aspect which is missing, rest is quite agreeable. However what is missing is a serious issue.

To me it seems your message says – there is no marriage that should break, in other words divorces should never happen. I get this picture because no where in your post you’ve given a consideration to any situation where divorce could be the only option.

I will give you situations where divorce is the only option. My post is going to be long, perhaps longer than yours :)

You live in a society where divorce is not only common, it is also very easily granted and widely accepted. I come from a society where divorce is not just very uncommon, its very difficult to get justification and acceptability within the society. As a result, in the west people are filing for divorces for really petty reasons – reasons that always exist within ones lives and no matter how many spouses one changes one cannot achieve the kind of bliss one fantacises. In Indian culture, divorce is mostly the last option, in others it is not even an option. I think submission to God is not equal to submission to misery when there are (God granted) ways to get out of that misery.

I’ll list a few situations for you to ponder.

1. In hindu custom the bride’s father should pay a lot of money and expensive items (like furniture, electronincs, a car etc) to the groom and his family during the wedding. This is not optional – when the marriage is being‘arranged’ this amount is decided by the groom’s family. Parents on the brides side arrange their daughter’s weddings like a business contract. Then, after the marriage, in many cases the arrangement is found dissatisfactory to the grooms family, they ask for more money and more gifts. If the father is able to, he pays … if he is not, the daughter goes through difficulty in her marriage and adjustments with her in-laws. Eventually, they grow so unhappy with her that they burn her to death! Pick up any newspaper, every third – fourth day and you will find a ‘dowry death’ reported. The laws in the country are very strict. Demanding dowry is a crime, punishable by law – yet many, many girls have to die in this drama.
God is held witness when marriage laws are pronounced in this case as well. The girl and her parents who see unhappiness in the marriage want to do whatever they can to diffuse the tension – because everyone knows its their own responsibility to find happiness. Tell me what should one do to create marital bliss when its basis rests on financial resources one does not have?
Should the girl’s parents not call her back and file for a divorce?
Yet they do not do this. Instead they tell her to try and ‘cope’, and she copes ‘till death does her part’!!

2. My mother’s maid servant’s husband is a poor rickshaw puller. Whatever he earns he spends all on alcohol. What she earns, she hides from him to keep for running the house and he beats her often to give money for alcohol – She is not filing a divorce. Its her own responsibility to find her happiness and marital bliss. She spends most of her time washing dishes and cleaning houses to earn for her family… I don’t know what social pressures they go thru. She deserves a life of dignity and surely she is not going to get it from this man. I think she deserves to get out of this marriage with all her children, but she will not. And, she is not an isolated case of this scenario.

3. Another example of domestic violence: One of my aunts had a friend (a rich Punjabi sikh family living in New Delhi) who had died. This was her second marriage - she was being physically abused but she thought she could handle. He used to beat her and love her, and she thought walking out of this marriage will receive severe social censure because she had already had one divorce before this marriage. She did not even think of filing a divorce. In reality she could not handle the abuse, and eventually her death was due to one of those incidences. Again this is not an isolated case.
I know of another case in my extended family where the wife died leaving behind two boys (5 and 3) because she thought she could handle the episodes of violence – she did not want to go thru a divorce, since it was her second marriage – her logic was that people might find serious faults in her temperament if she could not cope. She coped death did its part.

4. Verbal abuse: If you don’t know what it is, go to a website explaining it. Check what kind of people engage in it and what they do to their victims. Check what are the ways of handling a man/woman who suffers from the disease of abusing their loved ones like this! They are subjects of personality disorders, and its very difficult for one to find their happiness around such people. There are organizations in the west who support spouses and families victims of this situation, however I don’t know of their kind in India. To verbally abuse the partner is not even taken seriously – leave alone someone suggesting divorce. Ive read accounts of victims of this kind of abuse – you would either not understand their agony if you don’t know what it is, or it will make you cry and your hair stand at their ends. Physical abuse still gets serious attention because the scars and wounds are visible on the body. Here the wounds are inflicted on the soul – noone can even see it. Should God or religion, or society tell these people to surrender, or wait till the down are over or anything to the connotation of bearing the situation on ones soul?

5. This one is a rather delicate. A couple I know who do not share marital relations because he does not want it. He’s got a problem which he refuses to address – ie despite the wife insisting on taking professional help. She did not file a divorce. She did not even think of it. Not just this, she is chaste, loyal, devoted and on top of that even manages to be happy ! Its not just his marital duty, also his religious duty to fulfill the rights of his wife. This is an example where Islam recommends separation. If a spouse in such situation does not mind compromising like this wife has done, I have no problem. However, if a society or a religion does not sanction separation there is a problem with that system. She did not take marriage light, rather got into the contract with mature thinking and willingness – and continues to stay in it with mature thinking and willingness, however her rights are not in her control.

These are just few example from the top of my head where people might be caught up in a situation they cannot do much to change their level of happiness. Our duties are in our control, but our rights - not always. Sometimes our rights are in complete control of the one whose duty it is to grant them.
Should we be telling these people to submit to God and surrender to their circumstances? To compromise and wait? To try and find their happiness within their situation? I think it is highly unfair that people in these situations have to think of what others might say , or how shld they prove themselves worthy and justifiable when they want to call it quits. .

I agree marriage contract should not be entered into lightly. In some cultures when two families are from similar backgrounds, the guy and girl have good demeanors etc, etc nobody cares if they ‘click’ or not. The parents just tell them to marry. After the marriage, if they don’t click, they have to work themselves through it – they infact do it in majority of cases. They don’t walk out marriages because he snores or she’s got a mole etc. According to Laura Doyle in ‘The Surrendered Wife’ – a marriage mentoring handbook – if he is a ‘good man’ - generally an asian wife tries to work thru her minor issues. Similarly if she is a ‘good girl’ and asian man tries to work thru his minor issues.

The problem in certain societies is not divorce, rather a sanction for divorce when it is the only option.

Thank you for the lyrics, they are beautiful

Peace and blessings to you.




-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 02 November 2012 at 2:05am
A happy marriage is not necessarily a sustainable marriage and vice versa. A few marriages are both but most are not.
We seek the happiness for our sake but we need the sustainability for the sake of our children.
The children are the true victims of divorce. If this fact becomes recognized by the society we would put more resources into strengthening the institution of marriage and less into the divorce industry...

-------------

Respectfully
aka2x2


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 November 2012 at 3:06am
Originally posted by aka2x2

A happy marriage is not necessarily a sustainable marriage and vice versa. A few marriages are both but most are not.
We seek the happiness for our sake but we need the sustainability for the sake of our children.
The children are the true victims of divorce. If this fact becomes recognized by the society we would put more resources into strengthening the institution of marriage and less into the divorce industry...
 
Good points. I think many divorces happen for selfish reasons, not caring for the partner nor the children.
 
The point of this thread is that if divorce was prohibited religiously then surely there would not be any divorces. But as somebody has pointed out earlier Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has given mankind an easy religion.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 02 November 2012 at 7:58am
I also wonder if having divorced, one reflects upon whether or not they really gave it their best shot to avoid the outcome, which as aka2x2 so accurately pointed out, that it is the children who are often the victims of divorce.  And here I'm speaking of those marriages that end because of "irreconcilable differences" and not dangerous or injurious circumstances, which I'm sure most will agree are legitimate reasons for divorce.  Did he/she just let the marriage slip away without truly struggling?  Did you give up too easily? Why?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 November 2012 at 5:01pm
Greetings Nausheen,

Your post when reading #1... so crushing to my heart.
I know of these injustices of course.  Just I suppose, for those who do not live in a society where this is every day, the mind protects itself from believing how frequent and common they are.  I had a friend in India - a doctor in training - and I asked him what he found so distressing about being there... He is a very religious/spiritual young man.  He never would tell me.
What I do not understand is that if a contract has been made, then that contract should be satisfied before the marriage, and final after the marriage has taken place.  What needs to change are the laws that allow this sort of thing to happen.

What gets me about this is view of west is so terrible, why, when there are things like this going on in other parts of the world, which to me is so much worse than moral failings of the west.  I mean, yes, morals are way down in the west and this is very distressing, but this senseless killing - so little value of human life?  It is one thing when people's lack of morals, disobedience to God, hurts themselves, but when 'obedience' to God hurts others -  Which is the worse of the two evils?

In cases #2,3,4 of abuse, I agree, no one should live with abuse.  This is so sad for children when there is no solution.
Often what people have done in the past, since divorce is unallowable,  they quietly left their spouse and went somewhere else to live saying that the spouse had died.  Often children were even told this.  This does not break the law of God and allows one to have somewhat of a life, as long as they know that they are still held to their vow of marriage in God's eyes, and anything outside of God's law will be counted as sin against them, and they will be held accountable on judgement day.

These are  the reasons we are admonished not to yoke with unbelievers.  If both do not have God there is no marriage.  Something my mother shared with me:

Marriage Takes Three
 Marriage takes three to be complete;
It's not enough for two to meet.
They must be united in love
By love's Creator, God above.
Then their love will be firm and strong;
Able to last when things go wrong,
Because they've felt God's love and know
He's always there, He'll never go.
And they have both loved Him in kind
With all the heart and soul and mind
And in that love they've found the way
To love each other every day.
A marriage that follows God's plan
Takes more than a woman and a man.
Marriage takes three.
© Beth Stuckwisch/Dicksons

This is why at my wedding ceremony we lit three candles signifying the two becoming in union with God.

Case #5 is what I consider 'bearing the cross' that has been given by God.  Accepting that the marriage was formed and honoring that covenant even though it is imperfect.  It may change as time goes on.  This takes great courage, endurance, faith, obedience... all things that grow character.

What needs to change are the rules by which some of these marriages are created, maybe not so much the rules by which they are broken.  If marriages are made first by better rules, rules of God,  then rules for breaking marriage would not be needed. 
*Sigh 
If only it were a perfect world where all knew how to follow God.

I'm glad you liked the lyrics, now I share with you a poem. Big%20smile

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 November 2012 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by aka2x2


The children are the true victims of divorce. If this fact becomes recognized by the society we would put more resources into strengthening the institution of marriage and less into the divorce industry...


I very much agree.  It is what is needed.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 03 November 2012 at 3:55am
Greetings Caringheart,
 
Thank you for your post.
 
Thank you for the poem, its really beautiful.
 
Ideally for muslims every action can be an act of worship, depending on a correct intention behind it.
In a prophetic tradition its said that one who has married has completed half of faith, not s/he has to concentrate on rest half.
In another its said that one can choose a partner for three reasons - for beauty, for wealth and lineage, or for religion, and choosing for religion is best.
 
These sentiments within the faith tell a great deal about how to treat marraige and marriage vows.
 
Reason why people have started to ignore this  perhaps lies in the fact that in our race to mordernization we have left religion behind in all aspects of life, including marriage - thus the chaos.
 
Quite logically said we should have better laws and people must be returning to their faith / God  - so we can have stabler family units.
 
Establishing laws might be easier than making people turn to religion though.
 
Peace to you!
 
 
 
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 04 November 2012 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Chrysalis

It can be a difficult concept to grasp for New muslims raised in the west or western non-muslims.
It's really not stranger than when people here in the west try to match their friends and acqaintances at parties and dinners and such, I think. But people tend to confuse arranged marriages with forced marriages.  
Originally posted by Nausheen

Ideally for muslims every action can be an act of worship, depending on a correct intention behind it.
Even sleeping, I've heard. Nausheen, you've written some wise things on this thread and one can but agree.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 13 November 2012 at 8:53am
Some questions: Did the Prophet wish to divorce Sawda bint Zam'a? Or did she just fear or think that he would? If yes, why would she think that he would?



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:30pm
Here is a very interesting teaching.

http://uncommonanswers.com/home/common-questions/divorce-and-separation/


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 2:49am
Caringheart,
Greetings to you!

It is interesting to note divorce is not even an option in christianity. Now I understand your stance in debate on this thread better.
Thank you for sharing the article.

The case in Islam is not so impossible. It is said in the Quran that divorce is one of the most disliked things to Allah for which He has granted permissibility.

Im really grateful to God that He is so merciful and that Islam subtly takes into regard the weaknesses of mankind.



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 4:00am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Some questions: Did the Prophet wish to divorce Sawda bint Zam'a? Or did she just fear or think that he would? If yes, why would she think that he would?

I guess you got your question after reading this article from wikipedia.org.
 
Sawda bint Zamʿa

The death of Khadija left Muhammad lonely, and, before http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28Islam%29 - - Khawlah bint Hakim that he marry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawda_bint_Zam%CA%BFa - - Aisha . In one account, he married Sawda in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawwal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad#cite_note-Watt-10 - - [11] As Sawda got older, and some time after Muhammad's marriage to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Salama - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad#cite_note-11 - - [12] some sources claim that Muhammad wished to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_%28Islamic%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad#cite_note-EI2-Sawda-12 - - [13] Still other traditions maintain that Muhammad did not intend to divorce her, but only Sawda feared or thought that he would. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad#cite_note-Wessels-13 - - [14] As a compromise, or because of her old age, Sawda offered to give her turn of Muhammad's conjugal visits to Aisha, stating that she "was old, and cared not for men; her only desire was to rise on the Day of Judgment as one of his wives". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad#cite_note-EI2-Sawda-12 - - [13] While some Muslim historians cite this story as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbab_al-nuzul - - Quran http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.128 - - Rashid Rida dispute this whole account as "poorly supported", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mursal_%28hadith%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad#cite_note-Wessels-13 - - [14]

I've highlighted in bold the part where it says 'some sources'. Who are these sources? There is absolutely no evidence from the Hadiths that the Prophet (pbuh) wished to divorce her nor did she fear that the Prophet (pbuh) will divorce her. However, he did give them the choice if they wanted to, if they were unhappy in the marriage.
 
It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
"The Messenger of Allah gave us the choice and we chose him; was that a divorce?"
 
Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3441
In-book reference : Book 27, Hadith 53
English translation : Vol. 4, Book 27, Hadith 3471



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Caringheart,
Greetings to you!

It is interesting to note divorce is not even an option in christianity. Now I understand your stance in debate on this thread better.
Thank you for sharing the article.

The case in Islam is not so impossible. It is said in the Quran that divorce is one of the most disliked things to Allah for which He has granted permissibility.

Im really grateful to God that He is so merciful and that Islam subtly takes into regard the weaknesses of mankind.



Greetings Nausheen,  Smile

"It is said in the Quran that divorce is one of the most disliked things to Allah for which He has granted permissibility."

Yes, in this, the Bible and the Quran are in agreement.
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
So if we do not have hardness of heart and are truly followers belonging to God we will seek always reconciliation not divorce.   With exceptions as you mentioned of course, legal divorce is permissable(in the terms of the law), but spiritually I believe, in the eyes of God, the union between one man and one woman is permanent and anything after is still adultery in the eyes of God depending our our spiritual condition(our hearts).  God however has the authority to forgive our sins and it will be His judgement on judgement day, whether or not our hearts were towards Him or towards our selves.

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart


Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 10:07pm
I personally think that in countries where divorce rates are low, it does not mean that the people are happily married. Staying married for a long time does not mean that both people are happy. I can not imagine myself being married to someone for many many years and not be happy. So I am thankful that I live in a society where I can freely get divorced if there is a need to do so.
You mentioned that in Pakistan, the divorce rates are lower than in india but due to the fact that pakistan is more of an islamic country than in india.
If this is true, it still does not mean that those who are staying married are actually happy.   Usually in these countries the mistreatment of women are so apparent that as a result it is expected for them to stay with their husbands. For example: I know in pakistan, it is frown upon for most woman in certain regions of pakistan to remarry even after the fact that her husband may have died. So can you imagine what will happened if she gets remarried to a man after divorce?
I think in any of these countries, if you give those women jobs where they can provide enough money to independently support themselves, then you will see an extreme hike of divorce rates  as well.
I have friends from all over the world, and the ones who never left their husbands when they should have, have suffered alot as a result of divorce not being allowed or frown upon in their country.
 
Now, why divorce rates are so high in certain countries? I think that there are many reasons.  One reason could be that people are marrying others for wrong  superficial or selfish reasons.  For example, let's say that my main drive for marrying a guy is that he is extremely handsome.  It is obvious that if this is my main drive for this marriage, then why would I be shocked  later when I find out that  he is not compatible with me? Or a guy nowadays, may want to marry a woman because she has money and she can help him pay his bills. At the same time, he neglects to improve himself as a husband and as a muslim.  It does not matter what the reasons are, the end result is that people are living away from practicing their true faith.  How can something work well, if we forget about our main focus in life which is to rightfully worship Allah.
I personally dont think that marriage is hard most of the times at all.  You have to work to stay happy like you have to work hard to stay physically healthy etc.
 


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,  [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />"It is said in the Quran that divorce is one of the most disliked things to Allah for which He has granted permissibility."Yes, in this, the Bible and the Quran are in agreement.
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
So if we do not have hardness of heart and are truly followers belonging to God we will seek always reconciliation not divorce.   With exceptions as you mentioned of course, legal divorce is permissable(in the terms of the law), but spiritually I believe, in the eyes of God, the union between one man and one woman is permanent and anything after is still adultery in the eyes of God depending our our spiritual condition(our hearts).  God however has the authority to forgive our sins and it will be His judgement on judgement day, whether or not our hearts were towards Him or towards our selves.Salaam and blessings to you,Caringheart


Greetings Caringheart,

Islam is not just spirituality. Its a way of life which includes spirituality, law, society etc.

Islamically a marriage contract between two people is a social contract as well. If they are not 'social' with eachother, 'lawfully' ie; according to religious laws they can divorce.
Since God gives the permisibility for divorce, this means according to the religious laws their divorce is valid, acceptable and correct. Later when such two people re-marry, this is viewed as a legal union between two people - not adultery.
I think Islam and christianity differ hugely at this point.

I would not always call it a hardness of heart between two people when they are incompatible. It is very much possible for two good individuals that they are incompatible with each other.
In cases when people have sincerely tried a number of things and their relationship does not work, its better to separate on goodly terms than to live together making life impossible for each other.

If one partner is trying hard to improve the relationship while the other is negligent of the same then, when this partner gives up ultimately, I would again not call it their hardness of heart - rather a consciousness of heart and a sensitivity towards quality of life.





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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by lady

I personally think that in countries where divorce rates are low, it does not mean that the people are happily married. Staying married for a long time does not mean that both people are happy. I can not imagine myself being married to someone for many many years and not be happy. So I am thankful that I live in a society where I can freely get divorced if there is a need to do so.
You mentioned that in Pakistan, the divorce rates are lower than in india but due to the fact that pakistan is more of an islamic country than in india.
If this is true, it still does not mean that those who are staying married are actually happy.   Usually in these countries the mistreatment of women are so apparent that as a result it is expected for them to stay with their husbands. For example: I know in pakistan, it is frown upon for most woman in certain regions of pakistan to remarry even after the fact that her husband may have died. So can you imagine what will happened if she gets remarried to a man after divorce?
I think in any of these countries, if you give those women jobs where they can provide enough money to independently support themselves, then you will see an extreme hike of divorce rates  as well.
I have friends from all over the world, and the ones who never left their husbands when they should have, have suffered alot as a result of divorce not being allowed or frown upon in their country.
 
Now, why divorce rates are so high in certain countries? I think that there are many reasons.  One reason could be that people are marrying others for wrong  superficial or selfish reasons.  For example, let's say that my main drive for marrying a guy is that he is extremely handsome.  It is obvious that if this is my main drive for this marriage, then why would I be shocked  later when I find out that  he is not compatible with me? Or a guy nowadays, may want to marry a woman because she has money and she can help him pay his bills. At the same time, he neglects to improve himself as a husband and as a muslim.  It does not matter what the reasons are, the end result is that people are living away from practicing their true faith.  How can something work well, if we forget about our main focus in life which is to rightfully worship Allah.
I personally dont think that marriage is hard most of the times at all.  You have to work to stay happy like you have to work hard to stay physically healthy etc.
 
 
It's the other way round, divorce rates are HIGH in Pakistan and LOW in India.
 
What I was getting at is that because the reason why the divorce rate is high in Pakistan is because it is permissable and it is normal, whereas it is still a taboo in India.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 11:03pm
Abu Loren,
Can you give me some examples of your sources from the Hadith showing the good relationship between the Prophet and Sawda bint Zam'a?



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 19 November 2012 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Abu Loren,
Can you give me some examples of your sources from the Hadith showing the good relationship between the Prophet and Sawda bint Zam'a?

 
No because there is nothing much about Sawda in the Hadiths except the one narrated by Ai'sha (RA) that Sawda gave up her visiting rights because she felt she was too old. There is no indication that the Prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and Sawda were unhappy in their marriage.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 November 2012 at 3:35am
Thanks for the clarification, Abu Loren. Then the other sources must indeed be wrong. That's why I asked the question.

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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt



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