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What is this "something else"?

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24137
Printed Date: 01 September 2014 at 7:57pm


Topic: What is this "something else"?
Posted By: Ghazzali
Subject: What is this "something else"?
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 5:10pm
May peace be on the guided ones. Well, Christians, Jews and Atheists always talk about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) being "a pedophile, a womanizer, a mass-murderer, a robber, a schizophrenic suffering from epilepsy", etc. But, what if Muhammad(pbuh) never married a woman in his life, never fought a single war, never "robbed", never "suffered from epilepsy", etc.? Would the Christians, Jews and Atheists have believed he was a prophet? NO. They still would not have believed. So, why do they still bring these accusations, when they know these are not the issues that stop them from accepting him as a prophet? There is something else that stops them from accepting Muhammad(pbuh) as a prophet. What is this "something else"?

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The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.



Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 8:14pm

First, I would like to suggest that the people who might characterize Muhammad as you describe are generally less likely to be atheists than those other groups.  To a Christian or a Jew, Islam is not just a significant "competitor" but also an abominable heresy; and it is easy (maybe even obligatory) to believe abominable things about heretics.  Most atheists probably give little or no thought to Muhammad's moral character at all.

To answer your question directly, the "something else" is the same thing that stops you from accepting Joseph Smith or L. Ron. Hubbard or the "Reverend" Sun Myung Moon as prophets.  Quite simply, there is no reason to believe any of them, or to choose one over all the others.  Throughout history, individuals and communities have made up stories about supernatural beings.  Some stories have had more success than others.  So what?

As I just quoted in another discussion: " When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ( http://freelink.wildlink.com/quote_history.php - Stephen F Roberts )


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:15am
Originally posted by Ghazzali

May peace be on the guided ones. Well, Christians, Jews and Atheists always talk about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) being "a pedophile, a womanizer, a mass-murderer, a robber, a schizophrenic suffering from epilepsy", etc. But, what if Muhammad(pbuh) never married a woman in his life, never fought a single war, never "robbed", never "suffered from epilepsy", etc.? Would the Christians, Jews and Atheists have believed he was a prophet? NO. They still would not have believed. So, why do they still bring these accusations, when they know these are not the issues that stop them from accepting him as a prophet? There is something else that stops them from accepting Muhammad(pbuh) as a prophet. What is this "something else"?
 
As'alaamu Alaikkum
 
In my humble opinion they do not have guidance from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala for them to accept Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and to accept Islam. Even people who read the Holy Qur'an and the hadiths and understand them will not accept it because they are missing this essential ingredient. They will always be deaf, dumb and blind.


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 26 October 2012 at 9:34pm
To elaborate on Ron's succinct remarks; the "something else" is very different for agnostics and atheists, compared to people of faith. What we lack is any prior belief in the supernatural, without which there can be no meaningful concept of 'god' or 'prophet'. To some believers, that fact alone is a good reason to stop trying, whereas I'm sure there are many like Ghazzali who genuinely wish to understand.

The 'litmus test' of true understanding comes down to whether or not we can precisely state the other's point of view in words which they fully agree with. Until then, we are kidding ourselves with distorted 'straw man' arguments, which only create more resistance, not less.

Logically, it should be easier for a non-believer to succeed at this challenge, not because we are superior in any way but rather because there is nothing to fear in giving it a try. For a typical law-abiding non-believer, to imagine a forgiving deity is neither difficult nor intrinsically threatening: the only 'danger' (if you can call it that) is that we might come to believe in him/her/it. And packaged with that new-found faith, presumably, would come the certain knowledge of Justice for All and (for the righteous) Eternal Bliss in the Hereafter. These comforting ideas would be more than enough to justify whatever personal sacrifices are called for. (Well, they would be for me, and I'm guessing the same goes for Ron and many others.)

Logically, the equivalent challenge would be infinitely harder for those who already believe in the God of Abraham. To entertain a smidgen of doubt, 'just for argument's sake', even for a nanosecond, must be like peering over the edge of a sheer cliff. What if I fell? There is absolutely nothing to gain by looking, and everything to lose. And, just in case that's not distressing enough, the signposts threaten eternal hell-fire and damnation for anyone who dares to stray from the path. Why would anyone bother trying?


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 29 October 2012 at 8:11am
Originally posted by nospam001


Logically, the equivalent challenge would be infinitely harder for those who already believe in the God of Abraham. To entertain a smidgen of doubt, 'just for argument's sake', even for a nanosecond, must be like peering over the edge of a sheer cliff. What if I fell? There is absolutely nothing to gain by looking, and everything to lose. And, just in case that's not distressing enough, the signposts threaten eternal hell-fire and damnation for anyone who dares to stray from the path. Why would anyone bother trying?
 
What's stopping you from believing? Is your logic on a higher plane than God's?
If I were you I would seriously seek knowledge (no pun intended).


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 October 2012 at 4:55pm
Abu, what's stopping you from believing in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russells_teapot - Celestial Teapot ?

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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 30 October 2012 at 12:43am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Abu, what's stopping you from believing in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russells_teapot - Celestial Teapot ?
 
Stay away from me or I will have to resort to some good ole foul language.


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 30 October 2012 at 2:15pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Stay away from me or I will have to resort to some good ole foul language.
So you really do have a sense of humour, after all. I'd offer you a beer if it wasn't haram. Smile



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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Ghazzali
Date Posted: 04 November 2012 at 1:01pm
Okay, thanks for the atheist view. Still waiting for the Christian and Jew point of views.

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The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 November 2012 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by Ghazzali

Okay, thanks for the atheist view. Still waiting for the Christian and Jew point of views.


I gave mine but it was not allowed to post. (and it was nothing so terrible... just my view, which is after all what was asked for)

That something else...
the things you said,
He is not an example of what I believe can be held up as an example of a man of God.
and
Muhammad's religion's intent on sowing seeds of discord and prejudice...
of the dissemination of ideas (and the use of repeating them again and again) that subtly propagate prejudice in minds of men, using God as validation and obscuring the sight of man as to their true nature.


Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 15 November 2012 at 7:34am
Muhammad's alleged behaviour points to him being only an example for 7th century Arabia.  But that's not the real issue.

The real issue comes down as far as Christians are concerned, to four things:

One: A denial of the need for blood atonement for sin. 

Two: A denial of the death of Jesus to achieve that blood atonement.

Three: The Qur'an thinks that Christianity teaches that God fathered a son by sexual means and had him as His partner, and that the Trinity is God, Mary and Jesus.  God is one of a Trinity.  I ask: Doesn't Allah the All-knowing know what Christianity actually teaches?


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 12:12am

The Fourth, Luke, use the Fourth...!



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 2:27am
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Muhammad's alleged behaviour points to him being only an example for 7th century Arabia.  But that's not the real issue.
Why do you say that?


Three: The Qur'an thinks that Christianity teaches that God fathered a son by sexual means and had him as His partner, and that the Trinity is God, Mary and Jesus.  God is one of a Trinity.  I ask: Doesn't Allah the All-knowing know what Christianity actually teaches?
 
The Christian creed says "...begotten not made....".


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 18 November 2012 at 4:36am
Hi Salaam,

Quote: The real issue comes down as far as Christians are concerned, to four things:
One: A denial of the need for blood atonement for sin.
Two: A denial of the death of Jesus to achieve that blood atonement.

Response: --- I hope I am not intruding, I am new here, --- but on checking some of the topics and not knowing what has been written before, --- (but knowing that a lot of topics are on the same subjects), --- I would like to join you.

When I started on an interfaith forum some time ago, I said I wanted to learn about Islam. --- And a Moderator said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- I had a copy of the Pickthall translation which contains much of the history in the opening Introduction, and has an intro to each Surah, --- so I have been studying it since.

Having high regard for Muhammad and the Quran, after reading it, I wanted to compare it to the former Scriptures which the Quran confirms in Surah 3:
3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was revealed before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

--- I have read that Muhammad said to his comrades, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”
And I have been told by Muslims that anything that is not ‘confirmed’ in the Quran, is not accepted.
--- Therefore, it should be the best to study the Quran in relationship to the former Scriptures and see what they say. Because I don’t know Arabic, I have been comparing the different translations on Quranbrowser.com.

As you say in points 1 and 2, --- I know that many say that there is no blood sacrifices for atonement in the Quran, --- but there is something from the time of Moses that is very interesting.

It speaks of a series of offenses of the Jews for which God commanded Moses to have the people offer a certain type of blood sacrifice, in Surah 2:

63. And (remember, O Children of Israel) when We made a covenant with you and caused the mount to tower above you, (saying): Hold fast that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, that ye may ward off (evil).
64. Then, even after that, ye turned away, and if it had not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy ye had been among the losers.
65. And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath,
66. And We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God-fearing.’

67. ‘And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish!
68. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith, Verily she is a cow neither with calf nor immature; (she is) between the two conditions; so do that which ye are commanded.
69. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow (some versions say, ‘fawn coloured,’ or ‘golden coloured’). Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.
70. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright.
71. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a cow unyoked; she plougheth not the soil nor watereth the tilth; whole and without mark. They said: Now thou bringest the truth. So they sacrificed her, though almost they did not.’

Yusuf Ali: He said: "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said: "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will.

(More to follow)


Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 21 November 2012 at 11:59am
(To continue):

There was a comparable sacrifice of an unblemished heifer in Numbers 19 where they took a heifer that was neither a calf nor a mature cow, but the choice of the field. --- This was a special sacrifice where, after they killed the animal they burned it as ‘a whole burnt offering,’ along with cedar wood, hyssop and scarlet 19:6.

They then saved the ashes, and stored them in a dry place and used them for ‘purification from sin.’ ---If an Israelite was defiled by touching a dead body, a bone or a grave, or in any other way, then it says this in 19:
17 ‘And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel.
18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it on them.
   
In Surah 2:63-71, it was reminding the Jews at Madinah of the past when they broke the commandment and violated the Sabbath, as well as having made a golden calf to worship in verse 51.

--- And, If we go on in Surah 2 from the sacrifice of the heifer in verse 71, --- it says:
72 Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide.
73 So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

A footnote in the Pickthall translation says that the Translator and Commentator, Maulana Muhammad Ali’s exposition of 72 and 73 is that this refers to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ.

--- The Jews ‘engineered’ the death of Jesus though they didn’t carry it out.
72 ---They first claimed they had killed the Messiah, then they denied it, --- but the truth was made known later.

73 is the mystery verse because this says --- “Strike (the body) with a piece of the (Heifer).” --- If the heifer refers to the heifer in verse 71, it is speaking about an OT sacrifice. --- So the mystery goes even deeper.

However, Maulana says this in his commentary on verse 73:
“The construction of the phrase, i˙rib∂-hu bi-ba‘˙i-ha, (Strike him with some of it) is rather difficult, but a comparison with 4:157 makes the meaning clear.
Oarb, as shown in 60a, conveys a number of significations. It means striking as well as likening.”
--- So, in his commentary, Maulana Muhammad Ali says the word used can mean, ‘striking,’ or ‘likening,’ --- or, ‘comparing,’ --- as Sher Ali renders it.

Sher Ali: ‘Then WE said, “Compare this incident with some other similar ones and you will discover the truth.” Thus does GOD give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.’

--- It was impossible to ‘strike the dead body’ of Jesus ‘with a piece of the heifer,’ that was reduced to ashes hundreds of years before, --- so it has to mean ‘make a comparison’ or ‘apply the incident’ of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin, --- to the ashes of the heifer from Numbers 19, for the purification from sin.


Placid



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by Ghazzali

Okay, thanks for the atheist view. Still waiting for the Christian and Jew point of views.

I gave mine but it was not allowed to post. (and it was nothing so terrible... just my view, which is after all what was asked for)That something else...the things you said, He is not an example of what I believe can be held up as an example of a man of God.andMuhammad's religion's intent on sowing seeds of discord and prejudice...of the dissemination of ideas (and the use of repeating them again and again) that subtly propagate prejudice in minds of men, using God as validation and obscuring the sight of man as to their true nature.


Caringheart,
really, you have used that excuse many times, e-mailing privately with nearly nothing in them.
And your prejudice against prophet Mohammed(pbuh) is evident. If you are comparing or have an issue with Islam or the prophet, bring it up with your proof not just your hatred, just because you have a different product to sell.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 4:32pm
Greetings Hasan,

I have no hatred or prejudice, only the conclusions I have reached from my studies, regarding Muhammad, his life, his teaching, and his leadership.  Some things about Muhammad I am still inconclusive on, but some things I am absolutely certain about.

and I believe you do know the truth about my posts, whether or not you want to acknowledge it.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:51pm
Greetings CaringHeart,

may I ask what books/resources on Muhammad (peace be upon him) you have referred to for your said conclusions.



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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 November 2012 at 8:05pm
Greetings Nausheen,

I have read extensively from all sides, originally starting out to question the roots and practices of Christianity.  So I have been reading and viewing DVD's across many subjects that call up the history of Islam.  I have been studying the history of England, and the english empire, the moors in Spain, the crusades, the arab conquests, how the early church was formed(Catholicism), the Ottoman empire... goodness, it's too extensive to list all the places my journey has taken me in this study.

Most of my reading has been online and I try to balance it with reading from many sources so as to get a balanced view.  I try to sort out the propaganda, but look for stories from both sides.  I try to look for stories written by people familiar with Islam, those having grown up with it, who can give a birdseye view of what goes on in those countries.  I have been trying to sort Islam the religion, from Islam the culture, and Islam the political.

I did ask one time on the forum where I might go to read an unbiased history of Muhammad.  Do you have a suggestion?
I had begun reading the hadiths but admit I have not gotten nearly as far with them as I would like.  I have found that it takes a lifetime to understand the religion that one was born into, let alone begin to understand the religion of others.  That's why I came to the forum for conversation.  I thought it would be easier to talk to people and wanted to get to know them.   Reading is not my strong suit.  It takes a great deal of time and energy that I do not have.  Though I keep plowing on because I have an insatiable desire for knowledge.  :-)

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 2:05am
A few weeks ago Caringheart stated that s/he was reading Surah 3 of the Holy Qur'an and yet s/he has the audacity to comment on Islam and Muslims.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 10:23am
To continue from a few posts back:

--- It is interesting that Surah 2 is entitled ‘The Cow’ after the heifer in verse 71.
Quote: 2:72 Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide.
73 is the mystery verse because it says --- “Strike (the body) with a piece of the (Heifer).” --- If the heifer refers to the heifer in verse 71, it is speaking about the OT sacrifice. --- So the mystery goes even deeper.

However, Maulana says this in his commentary on verse 73:
“The construction of the phrase, i˙rib∂-hu bi-ba‘˙i-ha, (Strike him with some of it) is rather difficult, but a comparison with 4:157 makes the meaning clear.
Oarb, as shown in 60a, conveys a number of significations. It means striking as well as likening.”
--- So, in his commentary, Maulana Muhammad Ali says the word used can mean, ‘striking,’ or ‘likening,’ --- or, ‘comparing,’ --- as Sher Ali renders it.

Sher Ali: ‘Then WE said, “Compare this incident with some other similar ones and you will discover the truth.” Thus does GOD give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.’

It was impossible to ‘strike the dead body’ of Jesus ‘with a piece of the heifer,’ but to make a ‘comparison’ or ‘apply the incident’ of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin, --- to the ashes of the heifer from Numbers 19, for the purification from sin, is possible.

--- As the Old Covenant required ‘the shedding of blood’ for the remission of sins, so, the choice of an unblemished heifer was burned with ‘cedar wood, hyssop, and scarlet,’ --- and the ashes were saved to sprinkle on the unclean person
If we ‘apply’ to the dead body, --- or ‘compare’ the dead body of Jesus to the sacrificed heifer (which was the perfect sacrifice of hundreds of years earlier for the Jewish people), --- we can see a parallel --- that Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice for sin, --- (as were the ashes of the heifer from the OT Covenant that God instructed, for the purification from sin).

--- The difference is that the dead body of Jesus was brought back to life, --- and therefore conquered death. --- And in this we ‘see His Sign,’ of ‘newness of life’ or ‘resurrection from the dead.’ --- And then, after Jesus was raised from the dead, God took Him up to Himself, --- as it says in 3:55.
(Jesus was resurrected, rather than the OT sacrifice for purification from sin, that, when the ashes were all used up, they had to be replaced by the ashes of another perfect heifer).

--- A footnote in the Pickthall translation: --- Maulana says that verses 72-73 refer to the Martyrdom of Jesus Christ.
Here I want to give some of the commentary on verses 72 and 73 by Maulana Muhammad Ali; from his website: http://www.muslim.or...quran/quran.htm

(Quote): When we compare the incidents narrated here in 2:63-71 with the same incidents as narrated in Surah 4:153–157, where, after enumerating almost all the incidents narrated here, --- (their disobedience, their breaking of the Covenant, and their breaking of the Sabbath), --- the Qur’an goes on to accuse the Jews in the following words: “And for their saying: We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah, and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture” (4:157).
The part quoted answers exactly to verses 72 and 73, only that the name is omitted. This comparison makes it clear that it is the apparent killing of Jesus that is referred to here.

The act of murder was not completed in the case of Jesus, as the Gospels show, for his legs were not broken, as in the case of the thieves. The meaning of the
sentence is therefore according to the signification of ˙arb that we adopt: strike him with partial death, or liken his condition to that of the partially dead man; and thus he was made to appear as a dead man, as stated in 4:157. There is no other case of a murder or an attempted murder in Jewish history of which the whole nation could be said to have been guilty, and which might answer to the description of these two verses.

(In his footnotes) --- He explained that the words صَلَبُوهُ مَا in Qur'an 4:157, do not negate Jesus' PBUH, being nailed to a cross; they only negate his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it. He also explains that Prophet Jesus, PBUH, "died a natural death" as is plainly stated in Surah 5:
117 I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and thou art witness of all things. --- Shakir’s translation. --- End of quote.
(I will conclude this next)


Placid




Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 November 2012 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

A few weeks ago Caringheart stated that s/he was reading Surah 3 of the Holy Qur'an and yet s/he has the audacity to comment on Islam and Muslims.
 
Greetings Abu Loren,
 
I do not understand why it is that you just like to pick fights with me.  Yes at some previous time I may have been reading surah 3... which would mean that I had read 89 out of 114 verses if it was after I had begun my deliberate sequential study.
I have read many other verses at many other times as well.  Whenever anyone has taken the time to share any verse with me I have taken the time to read it in full context.
... because I am truly interested in understanding what it is that Islam teaches, and what Mulims believe, and how Muslims can be counted on to treat me.
 
Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 December 2012 at 1:32pm
more of this 'something else'

I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.

My difficulties with Muhammad;
- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.
so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature
     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessness
and, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.

God is Spirit, not flesh
God's kingdom is spirit, not flesh

'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)
The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.

- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.
This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.
God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.
These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.
Salaam,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 December 2012 at 3:49pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

My difficulties with Muhammad;
- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.
so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature
     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessness
and, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.

God is Spirit, not flesh
God's kingdom is spirit, not flesh

'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)


Oh boy...where to start in yet another ignorant rant from "Caringheart". 

1.  "It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as a reward" -

How is "promising fleshly things as a reward" an appeal "to the selfish nature"?  God rewards those who are righteous.  What is "righteousness"?  The Quran answers:

"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing." (2:177)


Where is the "selfishness" here?  Are you just making things up, as usual?  Are you just basing your opinion on what the Quran "means" to you?

2.  "It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature" -

And why is it wrong to promise the righteous that they shall receive pleasures and joys in the afterlife?  Because you say so?  Indeed, the Quran promises many pleasures in Paradise, but it also promises them the greatest reward, which is the honor of seeing God:

"Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);- Looking towards their Lord; And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal,In the thought that some back-breaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them;" (al-Qiyamah, 75:22-25)


"The Messenger (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “When the inhabitants of Paradise enter Paradise, Allah will say to them, ‘Do you want Me to give you anything more?’ They will reply, ‘Have You not made our faces bright? Have You not brought us into Paradise and moved us from Hell?’ Allah will then remove the Veil and they will feel that they have not been awarded anything dearer to them than looking at their Lord.”" (Sahih Muslim)


What was that you were saying about Muhammad's teaching being "carnal rather than spiritual in nature" (not that there is anything wrong with that). 

Speaking of carnal nature and promising fleshly things in reward:

"I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”" (Matthew 26:29)

"Barnes' Notes on the Bible" states regarding the phrase "when I drink it new with you" as follows:

"Not that he would partake with them of literal wine there, but in the thing represented by it. Wine was an important part of the feast of the Passover, and of all feasts. The kingdom of heaven is often represented under the image of a feast. It means that he will partake of joy with them in heaven; that they will share together the honors and happiness of the heavenly world." http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/matthew/26.htm - [1]

"And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30)


Matthew 19:28 makes a similar promise, and "Barnes' Notes on the Bible" comments on that verse as follows:

"This is figurative. To sit on a throne denotes power and honor, and means here that they would be distinguished above others, and be more highly honored and rewarded." http://biblecommenter.com/matthew/19-28.htm - [2]

The Bible speaks of fleshly rewards in Paradise.  In light of this, for a Christian to complain about Islam's promise of Paradise is certainly ironic!

Originally posted by Caringheart

The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.


But for some reason, you "trust" where the Bible came from.  What makes you "trust" the Bible?

Originally posted by Caringheart

- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.
This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.
God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.
These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.


Wow!  So Muslims pray five times a day to curse Jews and Christians!  That's a new one to me! 

"Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds: No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will." (Al-Anaam, 6:162-163)


"For Him (alone) is prayer in Truth: any others that they call upon besides Him hear them no more than if they were to stretch forth their hands for water to reach their mouths but it reaches them not: for the prayer of those without Faith is nothing but (futile) wandering (in the mind)." (Ar-Rad, 13:14)


Here are among the http://www.islamcan.com/salat/duas/index.shtml - supplications Muslims make during the prayer:

1.  Dua al-Istiftah - "Glory be to you, O Allah, and all praises are due unto you, and blessed is your name and high is your majesty and none is worthy of worship but you."

2.  Surah Al-Fatihah - "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."

3.  "Allahu Akbar" - God is Great

4.   Supplication during Ruku - "Glory to my Lord the Exalted."

5Supplication when standing up after Ruku -  "Verily Allah listens to one who praises Him. Oh our Lord, all praises be to you."

6.  Supplication During Sajdah - "Oh Allah, glory be to you, the most High."

7Supplication In Between the Two Sajdahs - "Oh Allah, forgive me, and have mercy on me."

8.  Tashahud - "All compliments, all physical prayer, and all monitary worship are for Allah.  Peace be upon you, Oh Prophet, and Allah's mercy and blesings.  Peace be on us and on all righteous slaves of Allah.  I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah. And I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger."

9.  Durood Sharif - "Oh Allah, send grace and honour on Muhammad and On the family and true followers of Muhammad just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great.
Oh Allah, send your blessing on Muhammad and the true followers of Muhammad, just as you sent blessings on Ibrahim and his true followers. Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great."

10. Supplication After Durood Sharif - "Oh Lord, make me and my children keep up prayers, Our Lord, accept our prayer, Our Lord, forgive me and my parents and all the Believers on the Day of Judgement."

11. Supplication at the End of the Prayer - "Peace be on you and the mercy of Allah."

Obviously, "Caringheart" has no idea how a Muslim prays.  As Mark Twain said:

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”




-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 December 2012 at 4:55pm
Greetings islamispeace,
"So Muslims pray five times a day to curse Jews and Christians!"
I didn't say that, but I think it is interesting that you did.
I simply said that having the same thing repeated over and over to oneself is a form of brainwashing, and that in this case it tends to instill and reinforce prejudice and pride.

I trust in the Bible because it promotes peace, unity, and acceptance of others... based on the new testament... the teaching of Jesus, the new covenant.
I do not trust the source of the quran because I see it as promoting disunity, prejudice, and unequal treatment.  I see it as promoting dissention among people rather than unity, making one believe that they are above others.

"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."
It all comes down to what this surah means in the muslim mind, does it not?

Thank you for sharing all the other prayers.  It helps to know the prayers which are recited.  I would like to hear from many, many, more.  Better still, I would like to be able to attend for myself.  I imagine it differs in many mosques, in many places, and countries.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


more of this 'something else'I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.My difficulties with Muhammad;- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessnessand, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.God is Spirit, not fleshGod's kingdom is spirit, not flesh'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.Salaam,CH




CArinheart,
Like you have been asked, I will ask you again, where do you get your misinformation I mean information about Islam, where is your references to what your concluded?
It appears as if you got it all wrong, so I don't blame you for your conclusions only for your lack of knowledge and understandings of Islamic teachings.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 4:26pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

"So Muslims pray five times a day to curse Jews and Christians!"
I didn't say that, but I think it is interesting that you did.
I simply said that having the same thing repeated over and over to oneself is a form of brainwashing, and that in this case it tends to instill and reinforce prejudice and pride.


Too late to go back on it now!  You claimed that:

"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."

You did not provide any evidence for this false statement, and it is obvious what you were saying.  There is no point in denying it. 

As I showed you, the prayer involves worshiping and glorifying Allah (swt).  That is the purpose of the prayer.  You know nothing about it and, as usual, try to insist on the truth of your own prejudices.  How ironic!  A shameless hypocrite accuses others of being "prejudiced" and yet doesn't admit her own prejudices!  Before you point your finger at others, maybe you should point it at yourself!

Speaking of "instilling prejudice and pride":

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)

"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." (1 John 4:2-3)

"We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)

"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 1:10-11)

Hypocrisy much, Caringheart?!

Originally posted by Caringheart

I trust in the Bible because it promotes peace, unity, and acceptance of others... based on the new testament... the teaching of Jesus, the new covenant.
I do not trust the source of the quran because I see it as promoting disunity, prejudice, and unequal treatment.  I see it as promoting dissention among people rather than unity, making one believe that they are above others.


Righhhht...Which Bible are you reading?  LOL

Originally posted by Caringheart

"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."
It all comes down to what this surah means in the muslim mind, does it not?


And I suppose you know what it "means in the Muslim mind", right?  Once again, you present no evidence for your blubbering nonsense, except whatever childish thought comes into your befuddled mind. 

Surah al-Fatihah is a timeless prayer, which glorifies the Lord of the Worlds.  It beseeches Him to guide us on the straight path and to protect us from being misguided.  This is clear to those with a clear mind.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Thank you for sharing all the other prayers.  It helps to know the prayers which are recited.  I would like to hear from many, many, more.  Better still, I would like to be able to attend for myself.  I imagine it differs in many mosques, in many places, and countries.
 

Wrong again!  The supplications I mentioned are said in the 5 daily prayers by Muslims all over the world!  Here are some videos for your enlightenment:

Fajr Prayer in Mecca - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsBZsvbUZow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsBZsvbUZow

Jumaah Prayer in Pakistan - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IUjt1W0QNQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IUjt1W0QNQ

Taraweeh Prayers in Egypt - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgbCEv6JDJI - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgbCEv6JDJI

Jumaah Prayers in India - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbLP_JQi-ls - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbLP_JQi-ls

This is just a small sample.  Once again, your ignorance rears its ugly head.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 6:17pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

As Mark Twain said:

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”

I agree. It's also worth considering some of the other things he said about religion.

http://www.twainquotes.com/Religion.html - http://www.twainquotes.com/Religion.html


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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 December 2012 at 6:41pm
Greetings islamispeace,

You make me laugh.  I have not insisted on anything.
In fact... I quote an earlier reply to you...
you had said:
"you try to insist that you are right."
and I replied:
Actually I believe I told you that I was encouraged by what you say the verse in question means to you."
Saying,
"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."
as I did,
is not the same as what you said, in saying that muslims curse Jews and Christians.  I did not say that.  I said nothing about cursing.

The scriptures from the Bible that you share are about belief and unbelief.  They do not name groups of people to be singled out but rather they encourage one to look at the individual as to whether they believe or disbelieve in God.  The Biblical scriptures simply highlight that there are those who seek to belong to God and those who do not.  If you say that you interpret your scriptures in the same way, this is good.  This is encouraging.  Do you think this is true of all muslims, what this prayer says to them?

You also would agree, would you not, that whoever does not acknowledge Jesus and His teaching, is anti-Christ?
Would you not also acknowledge that the world is under the control of the evil one?

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 4:49pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Saying,
"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."
as I did,
is not the same as what you said, in saying that muslims curse Jews and Christians.  I did not say that.  I said nothing about cursing.


Perhaps in your confused mind.  I won't get into the detailed semantics, but saying "how terrible" someone else is, is essentially the same as "cursing" them.  I could have used some other word, like "defame", but they all mean the same thing.  Moreover, you still have yet to provide any proof for your claim.  That is typical of you.  You complain of "prejudice" and "stereotyping" yet that is exactly what you have been doing. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

The scriptures from the Bible that you share are about belief and unbelief.  They do not name groups of people to be singled out but rather they encourage one to look at the individual as to whether they believe or disbelieve in God.  The Biblical scriptures simply highlight that there are those who seek to belong to God and those who do not.
 

Special pleading, as expected.  The verses I showed clearly differentiate between Christians and...everyone else.  The "everyone" group also includes other Christians who were considered to be "heretics", but it includes all non-Christians in general.  It does not name any particular group because every group was considered as being wrong.  This also applies to individuals.   

However, as it turns out, there is a passage from the Gospel of Matthew which also names specific groups and determines that one is better than the other:

"Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread [the Jews] and toss it to the dogs [the Gentiles]. 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment."(Matthew 15:21-28)

Talk about prejudice! 

Originally posted by Caringheart

If you say that you interpret your scriptures in the same way, this is good.  This is encouraging.  Do you think this is true of all muslims, what this prayer says to them?


Why not?  If you think it doesn't, then provide the proof. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You also would agree, would you not, that whoever does not acknowledge Jesus and His teaching, is anti-Christ?
Would you not also acknowledge that the world is under the control of the evil one?


Of course, but I am not the one complaining about how Christians think about non-Christians.  I am simply pointing out your own hypocrisy in criticizing Muslims for believing that Jews and Christians are wrong, while defending Christian caricatures of non-Christians.  Get it?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 9:35pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I call it reinforcing a negative image.  Cursing would be outright saying 'damn them to hell'.  This is much more subliminal than that.  It plants a negative seed to be awakened later.

You seek proof.  Where am I to get this proof unless I myself become a muslim and join with Islam so that I can learn what is being taught... and then if I do not like what is being taught, I am already trapped.  Do you see the problem?  There is no way for proof.  Only getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust.  You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not.
I am not stereotyping, I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not?  Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims.  If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree. 
I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to.  If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself.  I would not bother to talk to muslims.

The passage that you quote from Matthew I have always had a problem with, from the first time I read it.  I do not understand this image of Jesus.


Regarding this;
where I said;
If you say that you interpret your scriptures in the same way, this is good.  This is encouraging.  Do you think this is true of all muslims, what this prayer says to them?
and you reply;
Why not?  If you think it doesn't, then provide the proof.  

I think the question for me comes from having read from a muslim themself, what they said it meant to them, and the fact that they said that all muslims know the underlying meaning and it is only non-muslims who are ignorant to its true meaning.
So how am I to know what to believe, unless I am a muslim myself?  And I do think it is not all muslims that 'understand this underlying meaning', but it is a subliminal implant of a negative nature into the mind of a muslim, just the same.

I don't know about other people, but I do not see the world as Christian and non-Christian. 
So I don't know if you mean me personally or not, but I do not defend
'Christian caricatures of non-Christians'
There are many who call themselves Christian who have no idea what it means to belong to God.  I don't view the world according to what people call themselves but according to what their actions say about themselves.  I believe that is what Jesus was teaching.  
'by the measure that you judge, ye shall be judged'
'remove the plank from your own eye rather than the splinter from another's'
'there are those who will cry Lord, Lord, and on that day I will say get away, I do not know you, for you never knew Me'

Jesus spoke against the pharisees who made all outward appearance and show of being 'good', but in their hearts was no good thing.
Jesus taught that the Truth of who one belongs to is revealed in the fruits of their lives... in how they treat one another... all people... even samaritans.
'When you gave to the least of these, it was then that you gave to me... and when you gave not, you gave not to me'
One who truly is led by Jesus and belongs to God, does not see the world as Christian and non-Christian, but as true followers and those who are either hypocrites, or are deceived... those whose 'ears are open to hear, and eyes to see', and those who are blind and do not see.
But we do not fault, or condemn, those who do not see, we pray for them, and speak to them, and try to help them to find the right way.  We do not build up in our mind a wall against them as though they will never find their way. 
We leave it for God to judge on judgement day.  Only God knows all Truth.
'for we see only as in a glass darkly, but then[when we meet our Maker] we will know in full'.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 December 2012 at 3:40pm
"What makes you "trust" the Bible?"

Question asked by islamispeace.

I trust the Bible because it is so clear to see the truth... to see prophesy happening right before our very eyes, and how everything spoken of in the Bible has proven true.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 December 2012 at 9:27pm
I am led to God by my love for Christ... for the sacrifice made for me, and the love my Father in heaven has for me, not because of any earthly promise.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 13 December 2012 at 7:05pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I call it reinforcing a negative image.  Cursing would be outright saying 'damn them to hell'.  This is much more subliminal than that.  It plants a negative seed to be awakened later.


I am still waiting for the evidence for these vague claims.  We both know that I could less about your personal opinions. You should know that by now!  LOL  I expect you to provide evidence for your claims.  You seem to be lacking in that department.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You seek proof.  Where am I to get this proof unless I myself become a muslim and join with Islam so that I can learn what is being taught... and then if I do not like what is being taught, I am already trapped.  Do you see the problem?  There is no way for proof.  Only getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust.  You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not.


Wow...so you admit that you cannot prove any of your claims about Islam! So that means that all of the claims you make about Islam are based on your own prejudice and stereotyping of Muslims.  What else could it be?  It certainly is irresponsible of you to make accusations without proof and then shrug your shoulders when poked and prodded for the proof while saying "there is no proof!" 

You say that "there is no proof in what" I said.  Really?  Have you been reading my responses?  There is proof galore there.  I even showed you the supplications that are made in the 5 daily prayers; the same 5 daily prayers in which Muslims say "how terrible the Jews and Christians are", according to you.  I showed you that the prayers glorify God. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I am not stereotyping, I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not?  Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims.  If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree.


Right, you are not "stereotyping" but "asking the questions, to learn".  Ummm...what? LOL

Usually, when someone wants to learn by "asking the questions" about something, they usually ask basic questions.  So, for example, when someone wants to learn about Islam, they ask questions like "What does Islam teach?" or "What do Muslims say during the 5 daily prayers?"  They don't ask questions like "Why does Islam teach prejudice?" or "Why do Muslims say in their prayers how terrible Jews and Christians are?"  One set of questions expresses a sincere desire to learn about a subject that the questioner does not fully understand.  The other expresses a priori assumptions based on ignorance about the subject.  In short, the second set of questions projects an atmosphere of prejudice and stereotyping.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they adhere to.  If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself.  I would not bother to talk to muslims.


This is pure baloney.  If you were truly interested in "what Muslims themselves believe their religion teaches", then why wouldn't you just ask "What does your religion teach"?  Why would you make accusations such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say "how terrible Jews and Christians are"? 

It is obvious to me that you are a pretentious and deceptive individual.  Either that or your methods of "learning" are significantly different from the standard method. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

The passage that you quote from Matthew I have always had a problem with, from the first time I read it.  I do not understand this image of Jesus.


Thank you for your honesty!  Finally, we are getting somewhere. 

Since you realize the obvious problems with this passage, then on what basis do you criticize the Quran for allegedly being "prejudiced" against Jews and Christians?  Me thinks this looks like an example of the pot calling the kettle black! 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think the question for me comes from having read from a muslim themself, what they said it meant to them, and the fact that they said that all muslims know the underlying meaning and it is only non-muslims who are ignorant to its true meaning.
So how am I to know what to believe, unless I am a muslim myself?  And I do think it is not all muslims that 'understand this underlying meaning', but it is a subliminal implant of a negative nature into the mind of a muslim, just the same.
 

Again, no proof!  What Muslim did you read this from?  Who was it? 

Originally posted by Caringheart


I don't know about other people, but I do not see the world as Christian and non-Christian. 
So I don't know if you mean me personally or not, but I do not defend
'Christian caricatures of non-Christians'
There are many who call themselves Christian who have no idea what it means to belong to God.  I don't view the world according to what people call themselves but according to what their actions say about themselves.  I believe that is what Jesus was teaching.
'by the measure that you judge, ye shall be judged'
'remove the plank from your own eye rather than the splinter from another's'
'there are those who will cry Lord, Lord, and on that day I will say get away, I do not know you, for you never knew Me'

Jesus spoke against the pharisees who made all outward appearance and show of being 'good', but in their hearts was no good thing.
Jesus taught that the Truth of who one belongs to is revealed in the fruits of their lives... in how they treat one another... all people... even samaritans.
'When you gave to the least of these, it was then that you gave to me... and when you gave not, you gave not to me'
One who truly is led by Jesus and belongs to God, does not see the world as Christian and non-Christian, but as true followers and those who are either hypocrites, or are deceived... those whose 'ears are open to hear, and eyes to see', and those who are blind and do not see.
But we do not fault, or condemn, those who do not see, we pray for them, and speak to them, and try to help them to find the right way.  We do not build up in our mind a wall against them as though they will never find their way. 
We leave it for God to judge on judgement day.  Only God knows all Truth.
'for we see only as in a glass darkly, but then[when we meet our Maker] we will know in full'.


I am not referring to other Christians.  I am referring to the Bible itself.  I showed you the verses.  That is the difference between you and me.  I don't base my claims on what I have heard from others.  I base my claims on actual research.  And the research that I have done, represented by the verses I provided above, shows clearly of a "Christian" and "non-Christian" world view. 

 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 December 2012 at 7:46pm
Caringheart,
some minds never grow out of their childhood at all. And claims alone don't help at all without any proves.

In order to understand a matter it is unwise to start at the wrong end, at the wrong place. For example if you want to learn about democracy, you will not go to a socialist or a communist and ask about democracy, would you?
Similarly, if you need a new car, would you go to the Ford dealer and ask information about Chevy? and what you think they will tell you if you did?
It seems that you have forgotten this very basic and simple principle of learning something right.
Why do you think, a Catholic source will tell you something about Islam in a way that it makes sense? They are rivals. Catholics are loosing numbers, Muslims are gaining numbers. Do you think knowing that fact, Catholics will help people understand Islam as it is, you got to be naive or st--- to think they would.
And on top, to show your innocence and immature conclusion that because someone has misinformed you about Islam and based on that you do not accept it. That is plain silly and like I said, immature.

My challenge to all of those like you is simple:

Show me if you are truthful these three things from your source without contradicting itself.
1-God, three in one as in a Trinity.
2-Jesus is God.
3-Salvation comes with blood sacrifice of Jesus (God)

Also, I will challenge you that on the following claims, the Quran does not contradict, show me if you claim it does.
1- God, one of one, who is not born to any, nor He has off spring.
2- Jesus, a man, a prophet, a creation, a servant of God.
3- Salvation comes through Obedience to God through His Mercy, Justice and Forgiveness and not through a ransom of blood, gold or wealth.

You can wander in vanities all you want, but if you are truly faithful to this cause of saving yourself and others, the answer to the above challenge is not pages long just a few line, unless you know you will not like the truthful answer, it's your choice.
Hasan


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 December 2012 at 4:46pm
islamispeace,

I'm sorry but you
 have no idea what it is to converse.
My so called 'claims',
(because that is how you put it, not me.  I have said over and over I make no 'claims'... I 'insist' on nothing),
are based on research of reading what others have written, what others have said.  You reject that.  I can not help that.
Your so-called 'claims are nothing different than your opinions and ideas you have formed from whatever sources you have come into contact with either.  (I do not see that you do any research at all.)
This is what conversation is, exchange of ideas to gain understanding, but you will never gain any understanding because you do not seek it, and you do not converse... not with me anyway.  I don't know why you find it so challenging to have a conversation with me, but you do.  You seem to do alright with Placid for some reason.
Your exchanges with me are nothing more than senseless attack.

Here is another source I've done some reading at;
http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_article.php?main_id=5864
If you'll spend some time reading the articles you may understand the confusion for any non-muslim.  It is impossible to know in which way any muslim has been taught.  So while you personally may disagree with the things I say... to another muslim there is truth in what I say.

Regarding prayers... You did not 'prove' anything, though you like to believe you do.  The prayers may glorify your Allah, but this does not disprove what I say they sound like to me, or what other muslims have said that they mean.  So you really didn't 'show' me anything that I did not already know.

Nowhere did I ask the questions that you suggest.
"questions expresses a sincere desire to learn about a subject that the questioner does not fully understand."
Yes, I am expressing a sincere desire to learn about scriptures and prayers which I do not fully understand... I want to know what is in the heart of the muslim.  I do not know how these scriptures and prayers may be interpreted by the people who say them.  I know what they sound like to me.  That is why I ask about them.  In this way you can come to understand what these things seem to say to others, and that helps to build understanding amongst one another.  There is much you do not understand about the religion of others, which takes on a different meaning for you than what it means to the one who is of that religion, and you feel free to express your questions and the way you interpret the religion of others.  Is this not for the purpose of learning?  I could say that your statements express 'assumptions based on ignorance', but I do not, because I am not disconcerted by your questions or statements... your misunderstanding, or your differing beliefs.  I am more than willing to exchange ideas, beliefs, and understanding.  I can not really expect you to understand can I, when you have not been raised as I have, any better than I can understand when I have not been raised as you have.  That is meant to be the purpose of conversing.  It has nothing to do with ignorance... unless of course you mean it simply in the sense that I do not know you and your ways, and you do not know mine, which is of course true, unless we make the effort to know each other, and the others ways, and isn't that meant to be the purpose of this forum?

"Since you realize the obvious problems with this passage, then on what basis do you criticize the Quran for allegedly being "prejudiced" against Jews and Christians?  Me thinks this looks like an example of the pot calling the kettle black! "
Because, as you say, I am honest, and just as I can honestly say that I personally have a problem with this particular scripture, I can also say that I have problems with some of your scriptures.  If you can feel free to say you have problems with some of the scripture of others, can you also be honest and acknowledge that there are some problems with yours as well?

You said;
"I am simply pointing out your own hypocrisy in criticizing Muslims for believing that Jews and Christians are wrong, while defending Christian caricatures of non-Christians."
and I am telling you that I
"do not defend 'Christian caricatures of non-Christians'"
and I, personally, do not know others that do either.
No decent person will defend that scripture, as in, it will not be made a part of current culture.  We will accept it as a written part of history, right or wrong, with no way to properly explain it other than to wait for God... but as civilized people we do well not to make it part of our present or future, not if we are decently guided.

Salaam,
CH

Just an observation...
Does anybody on this forum ask 'polite' questions about the faith of non-muslims... or are they mostly making statements about what they believe?



Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,I have read extensively from all sides, originally starting out to question the roots and practices of Christianity.  So I have been reading and viewing DVD's across many subjects that call up the history of Islam.  I have been studying the history of England, and the english empire, the moors in Spain, the crusades, the arab conquests, how the early church was formed(Catholicism), the Ottoman empire... goodness, it's too extensive to list all the places my journey has taken me in this study.Most of my reading has been online and I try to balance it with reading from many sources so as to get a balanced view.  I try to sort out the propaganda, but look for stories from both sides.  I try to look for stories written by people familiar with Islam, those having grown up with it, who can give a birdseye view of what goes on in those countries.  I have been trying to sort Islam the religion, from Islam the culture, and Islam the political.I did ask one time on the forum where I might go to read an unbiased history of Muhammad.  Do you have a suggestion?I had begun reading the hadiths but admit I have not gotten nearly as far with them as I would like.  I have found that it takes a lifetime to understand the religion that one was born into, let alone begin to understand the religion of others.  That's why I came to the forum for conversation.  I thought it would be easier to talk to people and wanted to get to know them.   Reading is not my strong suit.  It takes a great deal of time and energy that I do not have.  Though I keep plowing on because I have an insatiable desire for knowledge.  :-)Salaam,Caringheart




Hi Caringheart,

I think this will tickle you.
What Non-Muslims Say About Muhammad, The Prophet of Islam

What Non-Muslims Say About …Muhammad, The Prophet of Islam (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him and His Family)

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of God and the Last of the Prophets. (Holy Qur'an 33:40)


This is a collection of short quotations from a wide variety of Non-Muslim notables, including academics, writers, philosophers, poets, politicians, and activists belonging to the East and the West.

To our knowledge none of them ever became Muslims. These words, therefore, reflect their personal views on various aspects of the life of the Prophet.


Michael H. Hart (1932- ) Professor of astronomy, physics and the history of science.

q       "My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." [The 100: A Ranking Of The Most Influential Persons In History, New York, 1978, p. 33]



William Montgomery Watt (1909- ) Professor (Emeritus) of Arabic and Islamic Studies at the University of Edinburgh.

q       "His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad." [Mohammad At Mecca, Oxford, 1953, p. 52]



Alphonse de Lamartine (1790-1869) French poet and statesman.

q       "Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"[Translated from Histoire De La Turquie, Paris, 1854, vol. II, pp. 276-277]



Reverend Bosworth Smith (1794-1884) Late Fellow of Trinity College, Oxford.

q       "… he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar. Without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue, if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a right Divine, it was Mohammed; for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." Mohammed and Mohammedanism, London, 1874, p. 235]


Mohandas KaramchandGandhi (1869-1948) Indian thinker, statesman, and nationalist leader.

q       "....I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." [Young India (periodical), 1928, Volume X]



Edward Gibbon (1737-1794) Considered the greatest British historian of his time.

q       "The greatest success of Mohammad's life was effected by sheer moral force without the stroke of a sword."
[History Of The Saracen Empire, London, 1870]



John William Draper (1811-1882) American scientist, philosopher, and historian.

q       "Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born at Mecca, in Arabia the man who, of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race . . . Mohammed." [A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London, 1875, vol.1, pp. 329-330]


David George Hogarth (1862-1927) English archaeologist, author, and keeper of the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford.

q       “Serious or trivial, his daily behaviour has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious mimicry. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the Founder of Christianity has not so governed the ordinary life of His followers. Moreover, no Founder of a religion has been left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim Apostle.” [Arabia, Oxford, 1922, p. 52]


Washington Irving (1783-1859) Well-known as the “first American man of letters".

q       “He was sober and abstemious in his diet, and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected, but the result of a real disregard to distinction from so trivial a source ... In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and the weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints ... His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonial of respect were shown to him." [Life of Mahomet, London, 1889, pp. 192-3, 199]



Annie Besant (1847-1933) British theosophist and nationalist leader in India. President of the Indian National Congress in 1917.

q       "It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher." [The Life And Teachings Of Muhammad, Madras, 1932, p. 4]


Edward Gibbon (1737-1794) Considered the greatest British historian of his time.

q       "His (i.e., Muhammad's) memory was capacious and retentive, his wit easy and social, his imagination sublime, his judgment clear, rapid and decisive. He possessed the courage of both thought and action."[History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, London, 1838, vol.5, p.335]


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:24pm
Caringheart,
your wrote:
"Just an observation...
Does anybody on this forum ask 'polite' questions about the faith of non-muslims... or are they mostly making statements about what they believe?"

Why does the Bible contradicts on these three basic issues?
God
Jesus
Salvation.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:26pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I'm sorry but you
 have no idea what it is to converse.
My so called 'claims',
(because that is how you put it, not me.  I have said over and over I make no 'claims'... I 'insist' on nothing),
are based on research of reading what others have written, what others have said.  You reject that.  I can not help that.
Your so-called 'claims are nothing different than your opinions and ideas you have formed from whatever sources you have come into contact with either.  (I do not see that you do any research at all.)
This is what conversation is, exchange of ideas to gain understanding, but you will never gain any understanding because you do not seek it, and you do not converse... not with me anyway.  I don't know why you find it so challenging to have a conversation with me, but you do.  You seem to do alright with Placid for some reason.
Your exchanges with me are nothing more than senseless attack.


Right, I don't know what it means to "converse".  Oh, but you do of course!

Unfortunately, the only one who does not know how to have a "conversation" is you.  See the way it usually works is thusly:

1.  Person A makes a statement (a "claim" Wink), and provides the "source" of that statement/claim by providing a citation.

2.  Person B then responds to Person A's statement/claim, providing evidence for his/her counter-statements (counter-claims).

3.  Person A then offers a rebuttal and so on and so forth.

You have made many statements (or claims), while claiming that your information is based on "research" that you have done.  But, you have never provided a citation, even though I have asked you to provide your sources on numerous occasions.  When someone does "research" and they then report the fruits of that research to others, it is customary to provide citations.  You may have noticed that in some of my responses, there are numbers in parantheses, like [1].  When you click on the number, it will take you to a website for where I got the information.  If the source is a book, I will provide the name of the author, the name of the book and page numbers.  That is a called a "citation".

So, it is clear that it is you who does not know how to have a conversation.  You make blanket statements, claiming it is based on "research", but never provide your "sources". 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Regarding prayers... You did not 'prove' anything, though you like to believe you do.  The prayers may glorify your Allah, but this does not disprove what I say they sound like to me, or what other muslims have said that they mean.  So you really didn't 'show' me anything that I did not already know.


LOL The words of a self-absorbed bigot with no knowledge about the subject she is talking about. 

Your bias is exposed for all to see.  You care little for the facts, and more for what your own opinions are ("what I say they sound like to me").  In addition, you have failed to "prove" you claims that in the 5 daily prayers, Muslims say how "terrible Jews and Christians are".  Do you think that it is incumbent upon me to "disprove" this ridiculous claim?  Or is it up to you to "prove" your own claim?  Let me give you a simple analogy:

Say a person "claims" that he saw Bigfoot.  He provides no evidence that he did indeed see Bigfoot and when pressed by other to provide evidence, he says that his detractors have not "disproved" that Bigfoot exists, and therefore, Bigfoot "must" exist.

Obviously, no one would take this person seriously.  The burden of proof is on him to prove that he saw Bigfoot and not on his detractors to prove that he didn't.  In the same way, it is up to you to "prove" your frivolous and uncorroborated "claims".  Until you do, to me you will remain a charlatan who pretends to be interested in "learning" or to have a "conversation".

Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, I am expressing a sincere desire to learn about scriptures and prayers which I do not fully understand... I want to know what is in the heart of the muslim.  I do not know how these scriptures and prayers may be interpreted by the people who say them.  I know what they sound like to me.  That is why I ask about them.  In this way you can come to understand what these things seem to say to others, and that helps to build understanding amongst one another.  There is much you do not understand about the religion of others, which takes on a different meaning for you than what it means to the one who is of that religion, and you feel free to express your questions and the way you interpret the religion of others.  Is this not for the purpose of learning?  I could say that your statements express 'assumptions based on ignorance', but I do not, because I am not disconcerted by your questions or statements... your misunderstanding, or your differing beliefs.  I am more than willing to exchange ideas, beliefs, and understanding.  I can not really expect you to understand can I, when you have not been raised as I have, any better than I can understand when I have not been raised as you have.  That is meant to be the purpose of conversing.  It has nothing to do with ignorance... unless of course you mean it simply in the sense that I do not know you and your ways, and you do not know mine, which is of course true, unless we make the effort to know each other, and the others ways, and isn't that meant to be the purpose of this forum?


What they "sound like to" you is irrelevant.  As I said, if you were really interested in learning, you would not be making blanket statements, such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are".  These sorts of statements show that:

1.  You are completely ignorant about Muslims, and,

2.  That you are a bigot.

It would be like if I approached a Jewish person and said "how come you Jews are so greedy"?  This is a common stereotype against Jews, one that no serious person would believe.  Chances are that the person being asked the question would be offended and would call me a bigot, regardless of my "claim" that I am only interested in "learning".  No one would take that excuse seriously, which is why I don't take you seriously.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Because, as you say, I am honest, and just as I can honestly say that I personally have a problem with this particular scripture, I can also say that I have problems with some of your scriptures.  If you can feel free to say you have problems with some of the scripture of others, can you also be honest and acknowledge that there are some problems with yours as well?


Such as?  You haven't provided any proof "that there are some problems with" my scripture, even though I have asked you many times. 

The point is that someone who acknowledges that her scripture contains racist and prejudiced undertones is in no moral position to point her finger at others.  As I said, it is an example of the pot calling the kettle black. 

In any case, unlike your Bible, the Quran and Sunnah both decry racism:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (Al-Hujraat, 49:13)

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by http://www.iqrasense.com/about-islam/taqwa-the-cornerstone-of-islamic-faith.html - piety (taqwa) and good action. Learn that http://www.iqrasense.com/about-islam/muslims-vs-muslims-whos-right.html - every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood . Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves." ( http://www.iqrasense.com/about-islam/the-last-sermon-khutbah-of-prophet-muhammad-farewell-sermon.html - Farewell Sermon of the Prophet Muhammad )

Originally posted by Caringheart

and I am telling you that I
"do not defend 'Christian caricatures of non-Christians'"
and I, personally, do not know others that do either.
No decent person will defend that scripture, as in, it will not be made a part of current culture.  We will accept it as a written part of history, right or wrong, with no way to properly explain it other than to wait for God... but as civilized people we do well not to make it part of our present or future, not if we are decently guided.


So, in other words, you pay "lip-service".  Exactly as I thought.  Don't get me wrong.  I am glad you refuse to put that racist verse to practice, and I never said that you did.  However, the problem still remains that it is part of your scripture, and instead of realizing that it could not have come from God (just like the verses speaking of infanticide), you choose to shut your eyes and ears and pass it off as something that cannot be "properly explained".

Originally posted by Caringheart

Just an observation...
Does anybody on this forum ask 'polite' questions about the faith of non-muslims... or are they mostly making statements about what they believe?


This is a Muslim forum.  If anyone here was interested to learn about the faith of non-Muslims, would it not be more prudent to go to a non-Muslim source?  So, if I was interested in what Buddhists believe, I would go to a Buddhist source such as a website.  I wouldn't expect to learn much about Buddhism from this website. 

Also, I have a good Christian friend that I met on a Christian forum about 7 or 8 years years ago.  We still keep email correspondences and also debate with each other all the time.  I usually send him an email when I have a question about Christianity.  I also have another friend who used to be Catholic but converted to Islam a few years ago.  I met him on an Islamic forum (not this one) about 8 years ago  When he was researching Islam, he used to email me all the time asking me questions and I would answer to the best of my knowledge while also providing helpful links. 

The difference between these experiences and the one I have had with you is that you are a bigot who makes the same ignorant claims that other like-minded bigots would make.  I have had a lot of experience with your type and I know the signs.  I once had an email conversation with a Christian who originally pretended to be genuinely interested in having a friendly conversation.  We met on an Islamic website and eventually our conversation moved to email correspondence.  That is when this person's true nature came out, and he often times used foul language in his emails.    


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:20pm
Greetings islamispeace,
"Do you think that it is incumbent upon me to "disprove" this ridiculous claim? "
You have already told me that the prayers do not mean this to you...
(or have you?)
I make no claim, I only ask what they mean to you.
I have pointed out
"... getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust.  You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not.
... I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not?  Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims.  If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree.
I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to.  If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself.  I would not bother to talk to muslims."
This is about building relationship, trust.
The point bunter and I have been making is that you do not reflect the nature that you say is the nature of the prophet and religion you follow.  It is not about 'being insulted' as much as it is about what you reveal of yourself.  You do not reveal a good spirit.  Your actions and attitudes do not promote a spirit of peace... they do not encourage relationship or trust... they only reveal hostility.

Conversation is about building relationship, understanding... trust.  It's about your belief, and my belief, and reaching for mutual understanding.  Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about  faith?

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:28pm
such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are"

I did not say this.  This may just be a communication problem that you and I have.  Show me where I said this.  This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me.
In other words... 'what my words mean to you'.

You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:36pm
Let me point out a difference to you.
Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them.
I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures.  I am not putting labels on muslims.  I am asking about their words.  I have placed no judgement on the person.
I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey?  And can they see the problem?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:53pm
"The point is that someone who acknowledges that her scripture contains racist and prejudiced undertones is in no moral position to point her finger at others."
So it's ok to point the finger at others as long as you are too arrogant to be honest and acknowldge the same problems with your own?
The prayer that you pray 5 times a day promotes prejudice and pride... you just can't see it, or just won't admit it.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:05pm
" instead of realizing that it could not have come from God"
So you have the mind of God?  You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements.
Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching.  I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends.  The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim.

Sorry about all the separate posts.  I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:33pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,
"Do you think that it is incumbent upon me to "disprove" this ridiculous claim? "
You have already told me that the prayers do not mean this to you...
(or have you?)
I make no claim, I only ask what they mean to you.
I have pointed out
"... getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust.  You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not.
... I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not?  Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims.  If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree.
I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to.  If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself.  I would not bother to talk to muslims."
This is about building relationship, trust.
The point bunter and I have been making is that you do not reflect the nature that you say is the nature of the prophet and religion you follow.  It is not about 'being insulted' as much as it is about what you reveal of yourself.  You do not reveal a good spirit.  Your actions and attitudes do not promote a spirit of peace... they do not encourage relationship or trust... they only reveal hostility.

Conversation is about building relationship, understanding... trust.  It's about your belief, and my belief, and reaching for mutual understanding.  Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about  faith?

Salaam,
CH


Frankly, I could care less if you feel that I don't "reveal a good spirit".  Why would I care what an obvious bigot like you thinks?  It is amply clear to me that you (I don't yet know that about Bunter) are not interested in "conversation" or "learning".  Wrong thread, by the way. 

Furthermore, someone who is interested in promoting a "spirit of peace" yet cannot denounce infanticide as pure evil is obviously a hypocrite.  I am not accusing you of promoting infanticide but I am accusing you of hypocrisy for promoting "peace" on the one hand yet staying silent on the issue of biblical infanticide. 

How can I have a "civilized conversation" with someone who can't denounce the savagery mentioned in the Bible and also makes flagrant accusations against Muslims without providing any proof?  Are you kidding me?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:37pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are"

I did not say this.  This may just be a communication problem that you and I have.  Show me where I said this.  This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me.
In other words... 'what my words mean to you'.

You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding.


You are either a fool, a liar or have a short memory...or maybe all three!

What do you think we have been talking about all this time?!  This is what you wrote on 12/8:

"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."


It seems to me like you are a fool and a liar with a very short memory.  You make st**id accusations and then try to back out later when you are cornered. 

There can be no "understanding" with a person like you.  That would be like a Jewish person trying to "reach understanding" with a member of the KKK!


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Let me point out a difference to you.
Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them.
I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures.  I am not putting labels on muslims.  I am asking about their words.  I have placed no judgement on the person.
I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey?  And can they see the problem?


So now you admit that you said that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how terrible Jews and Christians are?  Going in circles again, are we?

Regardless of where or who you heard it from, you made an accusation that you assumed was true, without knowing if it was.  That makes you a stereotypical bigot, and yes...I am labeling you!  Wink

Moreover, I already showed you the "written and recited scriptures"!  I showed you what Muslims say in the 5 daily prayers all over the world!  Yet, you insisted that I did not "prove" anything.



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

"The point is that someone who acknowledges that her scripture contains racist and prejudiced undertones is in no moral position to point her finger at others."
So it's ok to point the finger at others as long as you are too arrogant to be honest and acknowldge the same problems with your own?
The prayer that you pray 5 times a day promotes prejudice and pride... you just can't see it, or just won't admit it.


Which one?  I showed you many prayers.  Which one are you talking about?  Where is the "prejudice"? 

It is laughable for a Christian who has problems with her own scripture to point the finger at Islamic scripture for allegedly promoting "prejudice" and then say that that is one of the reasons she rejects the latter.  Isn't that what you said?  Isn't that why you reject Islam?  So, how can you accept the Bible on the one hand for its racism and yet reject Islam for promoting something you cannot even prove? 

And again, as you so conveniently do all the time. you ignored the proof from the Quran and Sunnah which show that Islam completely rejects racism, whereas your Bible promotes it (as you admitted).  For shame! Embarrassed


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

" instead of realizing that it could not have come from God"
So you have the mind of God?  You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements.
Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching.  I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends.  The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim.

Sorry about all the separate posts.  I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts.

Salaam,
CH


Do I know that God is not racist!  Of course!  I showed you the verse from the Quran, didn't I?  I never said that I have the mind of God.  Talk about twisting words!

We can now add racism to your list of evils which you have failed to admit could not be from God, in addition to infanticide.  Instead, you try to push it aside by using the excuse that we can't understand God's mind, but what you fail to realize that it is not about what is in "God's mind" but being able to distinguish between good and evil.  Has not God given us the mental faculties to distinguish right and wrong?  Has He not given scripture as well?  Are all humans created equal or are Jews (the children) above the Gentiles (the dogs)?  How do you feel being called a "dog", assuming you are Gentile?


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Let me point out a difference to you.
Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them.
I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures.  I am not putting labels on muslims.  I am asking about their words.  I have placed no judgement on the person.
I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey?  And can they see the problem?


So now you admit that you said that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how terrible Jews and Christians are?  Going in circles again, are we?

Regardless of where or who you heard it from, you made an accusation that you assumed was true, without knowing if it was.  That makes you a stereotypical bigot, and yes...I am labeling you! 



Nope.  Not what I said at all.  I knew you would twist it around to that though.
Or, like I said, simple communications problems.
?
I think you do not choose to try to communicate.

What you say makes an accusation against muslims.
And how many times can I say it...
I'm not making accusations against anyone.
I am asking a question.
Is it possible for you to understand the difference?

(Yes, you are good at putting labels on people.  Perhaps it is time you start thinking about the labels that one could apply to yourself if they chose to go that route.) Unhappy


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart


"... getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust.  You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not.
... I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not?  Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims.  If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree.
I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to.  If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself.  I would not bother to talk to muslims."
This is about building relationship, trust.
The point bunter and I have been making is that you do not reflect the nature that you say is the nature of the prophet and religion you follow.  It is not about 'being insulted' as much as it is about what you reveal of yourself.  You do not reveal a good spirit.  Your actions and attitudes do not promote a spirit of peace... they do not encourage relationship or trust... they only reveal hostility.

Conversation is about building relationship, understanding... trust.  It's about your belief, and my belief, and reaching for mutual understanding.  Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about  faith?

Salaam,
CH

Frankly, I could care less if you feel that I don't "reveal a good spirit".  Why would I care what an obvious bigot like you thinks?

It's not about what I think, but you should care.
It's about what you represent.  If you say you follow Islam, this is what you present, not just to me, but to everyone, about the gracious nature of Islam.  That's what you might want to think about.  Is this what your Allah expects?  Is this how he wants to be represented?  You might want to care about what the Creator thinks of your attitude.
I find it ironic that you begin every post with,
"In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful..."

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 3:51pm
Thank you ismail,
Now I have a good source to read.  The book Muhammad at Mecca sounds interesting.  All of Watt's books look interesting.
Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:51am
islamispeace,

The Biblical scriptures do not promote prejudice, or racism, as you like to twist things around.  They contain a story which portrays Jesus in a questionable light, but nowhere is it said to practice this behavior.  No one goes around quoting this story and saying this is how gentiles are to be seen.  Nowhere does it promote treating any person as less than.  In fact Jesus showed in the story of the samaritan that all are to be treated as equals.  He showed this in His treatment of all sinners, that they are to be given the opportunity to repent, to come to the Lord... in the same way that the woman demonstrated in asking for 'the crumbs' that it is faith that gains favor with God.

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

" instead of realizing that it could not have come from God"
So you have the mind of God?  You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements.Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching.  I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends.  The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim.Sorry about all the separate posts.  I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts.Salaam,CH




Caringheart,
I could not set idle seeing this statements of yours.
You made a claim, and I have been talking to people like you who have the similar claim, but they have disappointed me, I hope you won't, but we cannot say anything yet.
I will ask you three simple questions and expect their answers to be clear, short and to the point, since you say that you truly know what you believe.

Question 1.
God is One. Why do your concept of God in a Trinity contradicts to the Bible itself?

Question 2.
Jesus, you claim him to be God, why does the Bible clearly contradicts that?

Question 3.
Salvation you say is achieved through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Why does that contradicts the Bible.

I am really interested to know the answers to the aboe questions, as you say you know what you believe.

Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 7:00pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

islamispeace,

The Biblical scriptures do not promote prejudice, or racism, as you like to twist things around.  They contain a story which portrays Jesus in a questionable light, but nowhere is it said to practice this behavior.  No one goes around quoting this story and saying this is how gentiles are to be seen.  Nowhere does it promote treating any person as less than.  In fact Jesus showed in the story of the samaritan that all are to be treated as equals.  He showed this in His treatment of all sinners, that they are to be given the opportunity to repent, to come to the Lord... in the same way that the woman demonstrated in asking for 'the crumbs' that it is faith that gains favor with God.

Salaam,
CH


Again, you try to move the goal posts!  When did I say that Christians are to "practice this behavior"?  Hmmm?

What I said was that your Bible practices racism.  This is clear from that one passage in Matthew.  What the Bible says elsewhere means nothing because of that one passage!  If anything, it only proves what brother Hasan has said all along which is that the Bible is inconsistent and therefore cannot be God's word. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by honeto


Question 1.
God is One. Why do your concept of God in a Trinity contradicts to the Bible itself?

Question 2.
Jesus, you claim him to be God, why does the Bible clearly contradicts that?

Question 3.
Salvation you say is achieved through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Why does that contradicts the Bible.

I am really interested to know the answers to the aboe questions, as you say you know what you believe.

Hasan
 
Greetings Hasan,
 
The answer to all 3 is, "It doesn't".
According to my understanding, according to my belief, my reading, my studying, and what God has revealed to me...
It does not.
 
As you know... as I keep saying... each person forms their own beliefs... each must form their own belief.  God reveals, what He reveals, to whom He wills. There is no way that all people will ever have identical belief, whether they are labeled Jewish, muslim, Christian, Hindu, buddhist, or even atheist.  Even within each of these groups their will always be differences of understanding.  Every person is an individual, with an individual mind given them by God, and their own individual relationship with God, and that is why only God can judge 'what is between Me and thee'. 
 
Salaam,
CH


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 December 2012 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by honeto

Question 1.
God is One. Why do your concept of God in a Trinity contradicts to the Bible itself?

Question 2.
Jesus, you claim him to be God, why does the Bible clearly contradicts that?

Question 3.
Salvation you say is achieved through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Why does that contradicts the Bible.

I am really interested to know the answers to the aboe questions, as you say you know what you believe.

Hasan

 
Greetings Hasan,
 
The answer to all 3 is, "It doesn't".
According to my understanding, according to my belief, my reading, my studying, and what God has revealed to me...
It does not.
 
As you know... as I keep saying... each person forms their own beliefs... each must form their own belief.  God reveals, what He reveals, to whom He wills. There is no way that all people will ever have identical belief, whether they are labeled Jewish, muslim, Christian, Hindu, buddhist, or even atheist.  Even within each of these groups their will always be differences of understanding.  Every person is an individual, with an individual mind given them by God, and their own individual relationship with God, and that is why only God can judge 'what is between Me and thee'. 
 
Salaam,
CH



Caringheart,
I am not talking about the different levels of understandings we have, which we do and I agree with that.
What I am talking about is more what our two eyes can see, what our mind can think and easily figure out: Like 2+2, or difference between a round shape vs a square. Separating red color from yellow and so on. Counting, reading and comprehension, simple as that.

So with the help of those basic abilities we all have been blessed with, it is very easy to come to some sensible conclusion. Some of us don't accept it and keep in a state of denial and some simply accept it as truthful outcome, a fruit of their labor.

The reason that I picked those three is that all our discussions revolve around those three basic issues.

1-God, you claim God is One but Jesus is son of God one of the three persons of God, who is equal to God.
The Bible contradicts all of that and some more. On top you claim that your belief comes from the Bible.
2- Jesus, you say is the only begotten son of God, who was first created, you say he is equal to God, and is God.
Again, the Bible contradicts your this claim as well.

3-you say that Jesus gave his live and died and paid ransom for your sins with his blood.
Again, the Bible contradicts that one as well.

Not, one, not two, but all three of the major claims that are foundation of your belief seem not to be inline with your trusted source, the Bible!

Now I see you mentioned you receive revelations? Do you base then your belief on the ones you receive and not the Bible?

Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 December 2012 at 7:51pm
Greetings Hasan,
You have completely ignored what I wrote.

"The Bible contradicts all of that and some more."
No it doesn't.  Not for me.  Not by my interpretation or understanding.  Maybe by someone else's interpretation though.  It's all a matter of interpretation.  The same with the quran.
The Bible does not contradict any of these things... only by the interpretation of some.
All that is revealed to me is from God and His Word... the Bible.
Have you read the Bible for yourself?  (All of it?)

Salaam,
CH


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 24 December 2012 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,I have read extensively from all sides, originally starting out to question the roots and practices of Christianity.  So I have been reading and viewing DVD's across many subjects that call up the history of Islam.  I have been studying the history of England, and the english empire, the moors in Spain, the crusades, the arab conquests, how the early church was formed(Catholicism), the Ottoman empire... goodness, it's too extensive to list all the places my journey has taken me in this study.Most of my reading has been online and I try to balance it with reading from many sources so as to get a balanced view.  I try to sort out the propaganda, but look for stories from both sides.  I try to look for stories written by people familiar with Islam, those having grown up with it, who can give a birdseye view of what goes on in those countries.  I have been trying to sort Islam the religion, from Islam the culture, and Islam the political.I did ask one time on the forum where I might go to read an unbiased history of Muhammad.  Do you have a suggestion?I had begun reading the hadiths but admit I have not gotten nearly as far with them as I would like.  I have found that it takes a lifetime to understand the religion that one was born into, let alone begin to understand the religion of others.  That's why I came to the forum for conversation.  I thought it would be easier to talk to people and wanted to get to know them.   Reading is not my strong suit.  It takes a great deal of time and energy that I do not have.  Though I keep plowing on because I have an insatiable desire for knowledge.  :-)Salaam,Caringheart




Greetings Caringheart,

Thank you for your careful response.
Please accept my apologies for having missed it until just now.

Looks like you have read a lot more than myself on the history of Islam. Im impressed.

Since you've asked for suggestions, I will take the liberty of directing you to two sources.

1. Had read this book a while ago : Muhammad: A biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong.
Did not know she was a muslim until a few months ago. Before writing here, I checked Amazon.com for her contribution - you might want to take a look at http://www.amazon.com/Karen-Armstrong/e/B000AQ72VE

2. Go to old forums on islamicity - can find the link thru the top right panel of this page, and search for discussions by 'Servetus'
He is a non-muslim who read extensively about islam - much thru discussions - and a great thing about him was that everyone amoungst us muslims loved him.



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 7:40am
Originally posted by Nausheen

  Had read this book a while ago : Muhammad: A biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong.
Did not know she was a muslim until a few months ago.
 
I assume  you meant wasn't a Muslim until a few months ago, and, if so, what evidence now points to Karen Armstrong's conversion to Islam.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 7:44am
Originally posted by Caringheart

more of this 'something else'

I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.

My difficulties with Muhammad;
- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.
so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature
     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessness
and, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.

God is Spirit, not flesh
God's kingdom is spirit, not flesh

'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)
The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.

- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.
This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.
God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.
These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.
Salaam,
CH


Hi CaringHeart,

Are you claiming that during Muslim prayers they are taught to say how wonderful they are, and how terrible Christians and Jews are?

Can you provide any evidence of that?

I did some research, and I came across a brief summary of what is actually said, from a non-Muslim site so no one can complain it is biased towards Islam.

Please check it out.

This is not a defence of Muhammad. Although I believe he meant well and that he did have some things right about God, he was wrong about other things including denying His incarnation as His Son Jesus Christ, His death on the cross being the biggest ones, and the Quran although it does contain some truths, also contains things that are not correct.

However, having said this, it is not true that Muslims are taught to curse Christians and Jews as they pray.

There are some *****s who do claim that cursing Christians and Jews is "permissible", which is something I find quite low. We are called to pray for people's salvation and that God blesses them, even if they are our enemies.

http://www.islamqa.info/en/ref/36674/cursing

However, this is not a command from either the Quran or any hadith I am aware of. Saying that Muslims are told to curse non-Muslims during their prayers is like saying that Christians worship 3 gods. It is simply not true.

We need to be careful to be truthful and to make claims about what others believe only after we have done good research and made sure this is what they actually hold to.

 Otherwise we come across as bigots and liars, not as people who are representing the Lord and Saviour who came to the earth to live with us and die for us.

Jesus bless.Smile

Worshiping in Congregation

If there is more than one person praying in congregation, the people stand in rows, side by side, with shoulders and feet touching each other. In a mixed-gender group, the men form separate rows from the women to avoid distractions during the movements of prayer. Some mosques offer a separate balcony or room for women to pray so that they may have privacy during the prayer.

In a group of worshipers, an imam is chosen to lead the prayer. The imam recites the verses and words of prayer, and the people follow his movements. During the service, he stands facing away from the worshipers, toward the direction of Mecca.

Prayer Cycles

Each formal prayer is made up of cycles, called raka'at. Each one of the five prayers is assigned a number of cycles, anywhere from two to four raka'ats in length. For each cycle, the worshiper performs certain symbolic movements while reciting the words of prayer.

The following steps outline how a worshiper would perform a typical daily prayer. All words are given here in English translation, although the prayers are actually recited in Arabic:

  • While standing, raises his or her hands and says, “God is Great.”

  • Continues standing, with hands crossed over the chest.

  • Recites the first chapter of the Qur'an, and then any other small chapter or collection of verses. The choice of a particular chapter might vary according to a particular occasion or personal preference.

  • Repeats “God is Great,” then lowers into a bowing position, reciting words of praise to Allah.

  • Says, “Allah hears those who praise Him; Our Lord, You deserve our praise,” and rises to a standing position.

  • Repeats “God is Great,” then lowers into a position of prostration, forehead to the ground, reciting words of praise to Allah.

  • Repeats “God is Great,” then rises to a sitting position.

  • Repeats “God is Great,” then prostrates, again reciting words of praise to Allah.

  • Rises to a standing position again for another cycle of prayer.

When the prayers are performed in a congregation, the faithful follow the imam in prayer. They listen as he recites from the Qur'an and perform the movements after he does so. He makes all the necessary choices, such as deciding which verses from the Qur'an to recite in that particular prayer.

The first chapter of the Qur'an, which is repeated several times during each prayer, is called Al-Fatihah (the Opening Chapter). It is sometimes called the “Lord's Prayer” of Islam, due to its concise summing-up of the Islamic faith, offering praise and seeking guidance of God.

When two cycles of prayer are complete, the worshiper remains sitting for a moment. During this time, he or she recites the tashahhud, a short passage in which one praises God, asks for His blessings, and recites the declaration of faith (“There is no god worthy to be worshiped except Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”).

If the prayer is longer than two cycles, the worshiper stands up again to complete the rest of the cycles of prayer, and then sits down again. After repeating the first tashahhud, the worshiper then recites the second tashahhud, a passage in which Muslims ask God to send blessings on the Prophet Muhammad and his family.

Throughout the prayer, Muslims are free to add personal supplications to seek God's forgiveness, guidance, and mercy. When finished, the worshiper does the salutation of peace (tasleem) by turning to the right and proclaiming (in Arabic), “Peace and God's mercy be with you.” Then he or she turns to the left and repeats the salutation, formally concluding the prayer service.


http://www.netplaces.com/understanding-islam/islamic-prayer/performing-the-prayers.htm






Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by abuayisha


I assume  you meant wasn't a Muslim until a few months ago, and, if so, what evidence now points to Karen Armstrong's conversion to Islam.



I saw her on Ramadan 2012 webcast of Celebrate Mercy. They said she was a muslim - which was a surprise because I always thought she was not.

I checked right now for any web information about her but no luck.

If you know anything about her post Ramadan 2012, please let me know.

Jazak Allahu khair.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...
Originally posted by Caringheart


such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are"
I did not say this.  This may just be a communication problem that you and I have.  Show me where I said this.  This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me.In other words... 'what my words mean to you'. You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding.
You are either a fool, a liar or have a short memory...or maybe all three!What do you think we have been talking about all this time?!  This is what you wrote on 12/8:"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims> are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."It seems to me like you are a fool and a liar with a very short memory.  You make st**id accusations and then try to back out later when you are cornered.  There can be no "understanding" with a person like you.  That would be like a Jewish person trying to "reach understanding" with a member of the KKK!



Im not sure about the policies of moderation anymore - however, personally it is extremely objectionable that someone is being called a 'fool' a 'liar' and 's***id'

If I was still moderating, would have had serious issues with you !!


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


more of this 'something else'I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.My difficulties with Muhammad;- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessnessand, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.God is Spirit, not fleshGod's kingdom is spirit, not flesh'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.Salaam,CH




Had to dig thru this thread to find this post on very early pages.

The muslim prayer is as it has been posted by one of the participants above ...

We repeat in every cycle the first chapter of the Quran.

It consists of 7 verses.
First is the basmallah "in the name of the All merciful the Compassionate"
2-4 are praise to God.
in verse 5-7 we seek His guidance and favor.

Following is a translation by Sahih International:

In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds -

The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,

Sovereign of the Day of Recompense.

It is You we worship and You we ask for help.

Guide us to the straight path -

The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

You will be surprised to know that there have been volumes written as tafsir of these 7 verses. The easiest and convincing would be to pick one of those explanations and read for yourself what muslims say in their 5 daily prayers.

Would you please point to your source which says 'how terrible jews and christians are'? Thank you.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...
Originally posted by Caringheart


such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are"
I did not say this.  This may just be a communication problem that you and I have.  Show me where I said this.  This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me.In other words... 'what my words mean to you'. You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding.
You are either a fool, a liar or have a short memory...or maybe all three!What do you think we have been talking about all this time?!  This is what you wrote on 12/8:"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims> are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."It seems to me like you are a fool and a liar with a very short memory.  You make st**id accusations and then try to back out later when you are cornered.  There can be no "understanding" with a person like you.  That would be like a Jewish person trying to "reach understanding" with a member of the KKK!



Im not sure about the policies of moderation anymore - however, personally it is extremely objectionable that someone is being called a 'fool' a 'liar' and 's***id'

If I was still moderating, would have had serious issues with you !!


Thank you Nausheen.
Heart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Caringheart

more of this 'something else'

I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.
...


Hi CaringHeart,

Are you claiming that during Muslim prayers they are taught to say how wonderful they are, and how terrible Christians and Jews are?

Can you provide any evidence of that?
...

However, having said this, it is not true that Muslims are taught to curse Christians and Jews as they pray.

"However, having said this, it is not true that Muslims are taught to curse Christians and Jews as they pray."
Ok, this really annoys me, because I never said they do curse anyone.

What I said is that the prayer, depending on how it is understood, taught, and interpreted, by different muslims around the world... promotes prejudice and pride.

It has been said by muslims themselves that the following line of surah
1:7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
that it is understood by muslims that 'those whom Thou hast favored' refers to muslims
'those who earn Thine anger' are the Jews
and 'those who are astray' are the Christians

To me this imparts a certain prejudice and pride in the muslim mind if it is truly understood to carry this meaning.  It is said that in the quran's used in Saudi Arabia [muslims], [Jews], and [Christians] are parenthetically, as I've shown here, included in the scripture.  It has also been said that this is an aberration.

I feel that those who earn God's wrath, and those who are astray can be any person of any religion in the world, as well as those whom He favors.  I believe only God can judge the true nature of a person and where his heart lies, and that putting the notion into the human mind to think that they know... to put labels on whole groups of people, is wrong.  Jesus made this point over, and over again, regarding the Pharisees.

The reason I bother to post is to hear from muslims themselves what these verses mean to them... so they can dispel concern, and to raise awareness on their parts of what their scriptures can mean, or can be interpreted to mean, and are interpreted to mean, in some parts of the world.

If I had time to go back through notes, or to redo research, I could provide sources.  I do know that it was muslims themselves who shared the information seeking to provide enlightenment to those who do not know, or as they put it 'are in ignorance'.  It is easy enough to research for ones self. 
I am not saying that I interpret the verse of surah 1 that is prayed 5 times a day this way.  What I do is question the impact that saying this 5 times a day has on the mind of the one saying it.  It depends on what meaning it has for the one saying it, does it not?  It depends on what meaning it has been taught to have, does it not?  It has different meaning to different muslims depending on how they have been taught.  This is what I understand, and so I also question the requirement of saying it 5 times a day, and the impact of that.

If someone wishes to explain the verse to me in an acceptable way, here they have a forum to do that.  Not to just dispute, but to share with me their feelings about how it can be interpreted and whether or not they themselves take it to have such meaning.
Dispel my concerns.
If they can tell to me that this prayer, this scripture, can mean the same to them as it means to me...

Salaam,
CH

addendum:
"to the unbelievers among them..." surah 4:161 and 162

"But those steeped in knowledge, as also the believers among them, believe what was revealed to you and what was revealed before you..."
... those who pray, those who pay alms, those who believe in God and the last day...
-- These were believers whether or not they believed in Muhammad, and they were acknowledged as being among the Jews.  Believers and unbelievers among the Jews, just as there are believers and unbelievers amongst every faith, muslims included.
The word of Muhammad is confused and confusing... shifting.  This is why I do not accept Muhammad as prophet of God.  I think that Muhammad was confused and did not understand the word being given to him.
Muhammad was confused about God's Word... the scriptures.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Nausheen


Greetings Caringheart,

Thank you for your careful response.
Please accept my apologies for having missed it until just now.

Looks like you have read a lot more than myself on the history of Islam. Im impressed.

Since you've asked for suggestions, I will take the liberty of directing you to two sources.

1. Had read this book a while ago : Muhammad: A biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong.
Did not know she was a muslim until a few months ago. Before writing here, I checked Amazon.com for her contribution - you might want to take a look at http://www.amazon.com/Karen-Armstrong/e/B000AQ72VE

2. Go to old forums on islamicity - can find the link thru the top right panel of this page, and search for discussions by 'Servetus'
He is a non-muslim who read extensively about islam - much thru discussions - and a great thing about him was that everyone amoungst us muslims loved him.

Greetings Nausheen,

Thank you very much.  I have not read nearly enough.  I have said, it can take a lifetime just to know the religion one was born into, let alone understand all others, but I do have an insatiable thirst for knowledge. Smile 
You have led me to a wealth of information.  I looked up Karen Armstrong, which led me to reading about the Axial age... very fascinating... and to Muhammad; Legacy of a prophet.  I get most of my books from my local library and they do not have the one you suggest on Muhammad, but they do have Islam; A short History, and The Bible: A Biography, both by Karen Armstrong and given good reviews.  Karen Armstrong is apparently considered to be a good, reliable source.  I will be checking out both books.  I will search to buy the other one, about Muhammad, online.  Thanks very much.
The path of learning and knowledge is endless.  Smile

Blessings and peace,
Caringheart



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Nausheen


Would you please point to your source which says 'how terrible jews and christians are'? Thank you.


Greetings Nausheen,

I just saw this other post by you.
Can I just refer you to what I wrote to TG above? Smile  I think I may have covered your question there.

Salaam,
Caringheart

I just came across this written right here on this forum by a muslim on the forum;

    "The Jews have earned the wrath of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala because of their rejection of Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) as the Messsiah, and the Christians are astray because they teach the concept of the Holy Trinity which is polytheism."

Is this not prejudice promoted?  To say that ALL Jews have earned the wrath of God?  Jews in history, by their behavior, have at times suffered the wrath of God...
and all 'Christians'... all people who follow and believe in Jesus... do not believe in the Trinity, and even when they do, they believe that the three are the One.  This is not polytheism.  So is it right to say they are astray?
Is it right for anyone to promote the idea that all Jews and 'Christians' are condemned?


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Hasan,You have completely ignored what I wrote."The Bible contradicts all of that and some more."No it doesn't.  Not for me.  Not by my interpretation or understanding.  Maybe by someone else's interpretation though.  It's all a matter of interpretation.  The same with the quran.The Bible does not contradict any of these things... only by the interpretation of some.All that is revealed to me is from God and His Word... the Bible.Have you read the Bible for yourself?  (All of it?)Salaam,CH



Caringheart,
interpretations comes later when we have our beliefs set in something. Before that, like a legal document needs a keen inspection, so does the things that make our belief.
Yes I have read the Bible. And I must repeat this painful conclusion, that I wish I had not read it. I have many friends who I knew as Christians, after reading it I do not see them as I used to. I have a lot of disappointment in its contents. I rally believed it to be word of God revealed to prophet Jesus (pbuh). It is anything but that. It lacks the quality of a divinely inspired revelation from the All Knowing.
If you can sum up your understanding of it's teachings on the three most important issues I mentioned in my last post, I will show you their contradictions in it. please be brief in each, and I will be brief as well.

Of course, even devil worshipers have the same argument as you that they are right from their interpretation of it while others are wrong, please don't take that personal.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 8:48pm

Promotion of pride(and unequality) in Islam

3:110

You are the best of peoples...

and does not the following promote prejudice?


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 2:34am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Promotion of pride(and unequality) in Islam

3:110

You are the best of peoples...

and does not the following promote prejudice?
 
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
 
If you like, yes He hates the Jews and Christians for not following His Laws and Commands.
 
If you find that hard to accept then tough.


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 2:38am
Originally posted by Caringheart

and does not the following promote prejudice?

Allah (SWT) did not mean ALL Jews and Christians.

JEWISH / CHRISTIAN ALLIANCE IN ISLAM - SHEIKH IMRAN HOSEIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eslpGkSpZU

"It should be clear that the Qur’an has prohibited Muslims from maintaining friendly ties with only that Judeo-Christian alliance and not with all Christians and all Jews."
http://www.imranhosein.org/articles/understanding-islam/73-neither-friends-nor-allies.html


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:25pm
CAringheart,
are you making a fail attempt to run away from what I asked/challenged you to prove. I have said that according to the evidence the Bible and Christians contradict on these three major issue, and many others:
1-God
2-Jesus
3-Salvation
Anytime, anywhere, I and others have provided all the proof and will provide again if asked. You have no ground to stand if you claim: God is not all powerful. And consists of a Trinity.
That Jesus is God, equal to God, and always existed as God. God fathered Jesus like a man fathers his child.
That Salvation comes from the blood shedding of Jesus as a ransom for the sins of all the world.
I hope you face the reality rather than distracting or ...
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Caringheart





<span lang="">

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">Promotion of pride(and unequality) in Islam

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">
</span>

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">3:110

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">You are the best of peoples...

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">
and does not the following promote prejudice?
5:<a name="51">51<a name="51"></a> O ye who believe! <span>Take not the Jews
and the Christians for friends.</span>



 
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
 
If you like, yes He hates the Jews and Christians for not following His Laws and Commands.
 
If you find that hard to accept then tough.


Well said Abu Loren.

It seems they have an issue with the Lord of the Quran ... and if that is the case, it cannot be helped.


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Caringheart

Promotion of pride(and unequality) in Islam
You are the best of peoples...
and does not the following promote prejudice?
5:Take not the Jews
and the Christians for friends.
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
 
If you like, yes He hates the Jews and Christians for not following His Laws and Commands.
 
If you find that hard to accept then tough.


Well said Abu Loren.

It seems they have an issue with the Lord of the Quran ... and if that is the case, it cannot be helped.
 
Greetings Nausheen,
I am quite surprised at you having taken this response because I consider you to be more enlightened.  I thought you could see the point that you can not say that there are no Jews, and there are no Christians, that follow Gods laws and commands.  There are many who do, as there are many who do not... just as there are many who call themselves muslim who do, and many who do not.  To promote prejudice against 'Jews' or 'Christians' or 'muslims' is not something from my God.  To sort those who follow God's ways from those who do not is an entirely different matter.  I consider myself to follow in the way of God and I would challenge anyone to say that I am other than a child of God.
 
How would it be if I said that my god said, 'take no muslim as a friend because they are not followers of God', instead of considering how they conduct themselves in their lives as individuals?  Does God not look at the individual heart to judge for Himself?  Is He going to tell His children you can judge all peoples hearts because of what they call themselves and if they call themselves a Jew or a Christian they have a bad heart?  What if I were to say because you call yourself a muslim you have a bad heart?  Are there muslims with a bad heart?  I say yes, there certainly are.  Would you like to be judged on the basis of those?
 
Even among muslims themselves pride is a problem.  I have heard the complaints of asian muslims of how they are less accepted because they are not arab muslims.  Pride is not a thing of God... yet Islam promotes it.  These lines of the quran set people against one another simply by the group to which they belong.  It removes the person as individual.  Did Jesus say that all samaratans were bad or did he treat them equally with others as individuals?
 
Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 7:01pm
 
Thanks Rational, for sharing that.
It didn't really help with the issue of the scriptures though.
 
God's Word is supposed to be for all time, for all people. The quran does not fulfill this.  The quran is not clear it continually needs reinterpretation... (the reason for Muhammad's 'abrogation')
(sorry about the bold, I am having issues with my computer.  It will not do as I say.Ermm)
Caringheart


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
First He chooses to lead some of us astray, then He hates us ... for being so easily led astray.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 12:29am
Originally posted by nospam001


Originally posted by Abu Loren


Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
First He chooses to lead some of us astray, then He hates us ... for being so easily led astray.


Allah does not choose to lead anyone astray. People choose to go astray, and He chooses not to guide those who choose to go astray.

Children blame everything besides themselves when things go wrong. A sign of growing up and becoming mature is that one learns to take responsibility.
Mostly smart people know how to stand up for their choices.



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 5:36am
Hello Caringheart,

I saw Abu Loren's comment only in the context of the first chapter of the Quran.

Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith ... they have rejected the last prophet of God.

Whatever interpretation the western world wants to give it ... be it prejudice, pride etc etc is their way of looking at it.
For me its simply that they have rejected truth - and we muslims are warned in the Quran again and again to not become like them in rejection. Because rejecting faith/truth is the greatest loss for the soul.

I dont have problems with anybody as a human being. But that does not mean I am going to accept or believe that their faith is correct. Im sorry to surprise you, but I do believe that the present day judaism and christianity is wrong - they have gone astray and thus incurred anger of God. I don't know how this translates as being proud. I just don't understand your interpretation.
Just because there are good human beings in every faith does not automatically means every faith is correct.

The quran warns us against every form of rejection of God and His system. Thus we believe in every messenger before Muhammad pbuh, and every book that was sent before HIm. But now that he pbuh is the final messenger, and quran is the final word, salvation through any other route is closed.


I don't know what it means to be a child of God. For me everyone is a creation of God and has the potential to search Him and an opportunity in this life to be guided by Him. Those who sincerely seek Him, do find him.

Definition of friendship is different for different people. It depends on context also. A colleague from work who I sometimes go for coffee with, I call her friend. But that is in a particular context. Im not going to share intimate details of my life with her, though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me.

Somebody who uses blasphemous words against my prophet, I cannot call such a person friend in any context, because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments.

So the question is in what context you are talking about friendship and which does that verse refer to - and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses.

'Pride is not a thing of God... yet Islam promotes it.'

Quoting Hadith Qudsi: Greatness is My upper garment and pride is My lower garment - whosoever tries to compete Me in these two I shall destroy him and I do not care.

This is God speaking of Himself. This is how He warns against pride.
The closest relationship between man and God is that of a humble slave and a mighty Lord - in arabic we say of Ubudiya and Rububiya.
A slave is closest to his lord when he has his forehead on the ground and his heart totally humbled before Him.

Islam says that every disease of heart stems from 4
1. Ujub: self glory
2. Kibr: pride and arrogance
3. Riyaa: Ostentation
4. Hasad: Envy

'These lines of the quran set people against one another simply by the group to which they belong.'



I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one. To me these are a warning to not fall in wrongs which caused others to lose the favor of their Lord most High.
You see, there are many people who want to believe that God is compassionate and merciful, but they forget or want to delete the information that God is wise, just, has a system of reward and punishment - sends blessings and tribulations, gives and witholds. We see God as One who has more than 99 different attributes. He is Loving and Kind, but He is also all powerful who can do whatever He wills, while we can do nothing accept what He allows thru His will.

Quran is full of warnings to those who wish to taste paradise. If anyone wants to sit there and feel small or get offended by those verses, then its their choice, for those who take heed is again their choice.

Quran has divided people according to faith and further divided them according to the level of faith. It says the hearafter is more excellent in ranks than this world ... ie depending on ones status in serving the Lord.

Quran also says its a guidance for those who believe in it and a means to go astray for those who reject it.




-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Hello Caringheart,

I saw Abu Loren's comment only in the context of the first chapter of the Quran.

Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith ... they have rejected the last prophet of God.

Whatever interpretation the western world wants to give it ... be it prejudice, pride etc etc is their way of looking at it.
For me its simply that they have rejected truth - and we muslims are warned in the Quran again and again to not become like them in rejection. Because rejecting faith/truth is the greatest loss for the soul.

I dont have problems with anybody as a human being. But that does not mean I am going to accept or believe that their faith is correct. Im sorry to surprise you, but I do believe that the present day judaism and christianity is wrong - they have gone astray and thus incurred anger of God. I don't know how this translates as being proud. I just don't understand your interpretation.
Just because there are good human beings in every faith does not automatically means every faith is correct.

The quran warns us against every form of rejection of God and His system. Thus we believe in every messenger before Muhammad pbuh, and every book that was sent before HIm. But now that he pbuh is the final messenger, and quran is the final word, salvation through any other route is closed.

I don't know what it means to be a child of God. For me everyone is a creation of God and has the potential to search Him and an opportunity in this life to be guided by Him. Those who sincerely seek Him, do find him.

Definition of friendship is different for different people. It depends on context also. A colleague from work who I sometimes go for coffee with, I call her friend. But that is in a particular context. Im not going to share intimate details of my life with her, though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me.

Somebody who uses blasphemous words against my prophet, I cannot call such a person friend in any context, because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments.

So the question is in what context you are talking about friendship and which does that verse refer to - and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses.

'Pride is not a thing of God... yet Islam promotes it.'

Quoting Hadith Qudsi: Greatness is My upper garment and pride is My lower garment - whosoever tries to compete Me in these two I shall destroy him and I do not care.

This is God speaking of Himself. This is how He warns against pride.
The closest relationship between man and God is that of a humble slave and a mighty Lord - in arabic we say of Ubudiya and Rububiya.
A slave is closest to his lord when he has his forehead on the ground and his heart totally humbled before Him.

Islam says that every disease of heart stems from 4
1. Ujub: self glory
2. Kibr: pride and arrogance
3. Riyaa: Ostentation
4. Hasad: Envy

'These lines of the quran set people against one another simply by the group to which they belong.'

I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one. To me these are a warning to not fall in wrongs which caused others to lose the favor of their Lord most High.
You see, there are many people who want to believe that God is compassionate and merciful, but they forget or want to delete the information that God is wise, just, has a system of reward and punishment - sends blessings and tribulations, gives and witholds. We see God as One who has more than 99 different attributes. He is Loving and Kind, but He is also all powerful who can do whatever He wills, while we can do nothing accept what He allows thru His will.

Quran is full of warnings to those who wish to taste paradise. If anyone wants to sit there and feel small or get offended by those verses, then its their choice, for those who take heed is again their choice.

Quran has divided people according to faith and further divided them according to the level of faith. It says the hearafter is more excellent in ranks than this world ... ie depending on ones status in serving the Lord.

Quran also says its a guidance for those who believe in it and a means to go astray for those who reject it.
Greetings Nausheen,
 
I am going to challenge what you say.
"Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith"
This means you know as little about Judaism and Christianity, much as others like to accuse of knowng little about Islam and muslims.  You throw all into one category. 

 
"technically speaking"... Do you really think God is a 'technical' God?  If He was then tell me how did he accept David with all of his flaws, faults, and sins?

 
What about the Jews today who are practicing the faith as it was always meant to be?  There are those you know.

 
And what about the Christians who are faithfully practicing the faith the way it was always intended?  There are those also.

 
Do even these have the wrath of God?  I think not.

 
Are there muslims who have the wrath of God?  I think so.  Does this mean we discard all muslims?

 
This is the problem with the teaching of the pride and the prejudice.  There are those who would be proud who truly have the wrath of God, and there are those against whom you would be prejudiced whom truly have the love of God.

 
The quran does not have what the early faith taught.  The quran does not even know what the early faith taught.  But the followers of the early faith do know.  This is why the quran refers you to seek those who have the book... the first scriptures.
"though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me. "
Would you have compassion and be there for her if she was being persecuted, knowing that she is a good person, would you stand up for your friend?  and if not, is it real friendship?  and do you really serve a loving God?

 
"greater love has no man than this, than he lay down his life for a friend"

 
This is love God approves.

 
"because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments. "
Perhaps they do not share your sentiments but this does not preclude caring about your sentiments.  It is possible to have differing beliefs and still care about people.  It is possible to care about and respect another persons beliefs even if you do not share them.  At least where I come from and the way I am raised.
 
"and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses."
In part you are correct... what matters is how they are practiced by the people who learn them... but also,
 here is the crux of the problem.  What if everyone were to say, 'it does not matter what YOU think'?  It always matters what others think.  If you take the attitude that it does not matter then understanding and peace can never be achieved.  We must care about how the other thinks or there will never be understanding... there will never be peace.  Who is it that wants continued misunderstanding and dissention among people?

 
ostentation... let's take a look at this...

 
The muslim way of dress could be considered a form of ostentation... a show or pretense of being better than everyone else... like the pharisees liked to parade or show themselves in their robes.

 
self glory - aren't the muslims taught to glorify themselves... that they are "the best of all peoples"?
 
 
"I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one."
It is good that you personally do not feel this way (although I would advise you to take a deep and honest look to be sure)...

 
but this is why we must view each as an individual because while you may not have learned from your scriptures to think you are better than others, there are others who have learned this very lesson, and are likely not even aware that they hold these judgements within themselves.  Who is the great deceiver?  Whose very words in the garden of Eden led Eve astray by their cunning use?

 
I don't think other people feel small or offended by those verses, but it is offensive that those others are taught to think themselves better... that is offensive.  The very fact that you could make such a statement reveals the hidden prejudice that you do have... that you do think you are better... that it's 'not your fault' if 'others feel small' because of you.

 
True servers of God are humble, knowing that they too, like all others, "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".  There are none who are "the best of peoples".  There are only people, individuals, judged in their hearts only by God Himself.

 
I am frankly surprised that my words made no impact on you.
"How would it be if I said that my god said, 'take no muslim as a friend because they are not followers of God', instead of considering how they conduct themselves in their lives as individuals?"

 
"To sort those who follow God's ways from those who do not is an entirely different matter." -- than what they call themselves by their faith or upbringing.
______________________________
 
I was just asking myself the question this morning;
 
 
Is there, honestly, any muslim who does not think he is better than everyone else?
Can you love a Jew or a Christian?
Let's compare this with what Jesus taught;
Jesus taught, 'every man is a sinner and if there is any that say otherwise, he is a liar'.
Jesus taught that no one is better than any other. He taught to embrace all in love.

 
It's not about who is better than another, at least it should not be... God created us all, and loves us all. Our Creator only wants what is best for us... He is our protector. His Word is to guide us in wisdom and to protect us... to teach us how to love ourselves, by loving the Father who gave us life, and to love one another.
 
 
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another...
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John)
 
 
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans)
 
 
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
 
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. (1 John 2)
 
 
We are all created by the Creator, and born of Adam... all brothers and sisters... all children of the Creator.
 
Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 3:38pm
 
Originally posted by Nausheen

Hello Caringheart,

I saw Abu Loren's comment only in the context of the first chapter of the Quran.

Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith ... they have rejected the last prophet of God.

Whatever interpretation the western world wants to give it ... be it prejudice, pride etc etc is their way of looking at it.
For me its simply that they have rejected truth - and we muslims are warned in the Quran again and again to not become like them in rejection. Because rejecting faith/truth is the greatest loss for the soul.

I dont have problems with anybody as a human being. But that does not mean I am going to accept or believe that their faith is correct. Im sorry to surprise you, but I do believe that the present day judaism and christianity is wrong - they have gone astray and thus incurred anger of God. I don't know how this translates as being proud. I just don't understand your interpretation.
Just because there are good human beings in every faith does not automatically means every faith is correct.

The quran warns us against every form of rejection of God and His system. Thus we believe in every messenger before Muhammad pbuh, and every book that was sent before HIm. But now that he pbuh is the final messenger, and quran is the final word, salvation through any other route is closed.

I don't know what it means to be a child of God. For me everyone is a creation of God and has the potential to search Him and an opportunity in this life to be guided by Him. Those who sincerely seek Him, do find him.

Definition of friendship is different for different people. It depends on context also. A colleague from work who I sometimes go for coffee with, I call her friend. But that is in a particular context. Im not going to share intimate details of my life with her, though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me.

Somebody who uses blasphemous words against my prophet, I cannot call such a person friend in any context, because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments.

So the question is in what context you are talking about friendship and which does that verse refer to - and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses.

'Pride is not a thing of God... yet Islam promotes it.'

Quoting Hadith Qudsi: Greatness is My upper garment and pride is My lower garment - whosoever tries to compete Me in these two I shall destroy him and I do not care.

This is God speaking of Himself. This is how He warns against pride.
The closest relationship between man and God is that of a humble slave and a mighty Lord - in arabic we say of Ubudiya and Rububiya.
A slave is closest to his lord when he has his forehead on the ground and his heart totally humbled before Him.

Islam says that every disease of heart stems from 4
1. Ujub: self glory
2. Kibr: pride and arrogance
3. Riyaa: Ostentation
4. Hasad: Envy

'These lines of the quran set people against one another simply by the group to which they belong.'

I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one. To me these are a warning to not fall in wrongs which caused others to lose the favor of their Lord most High.
You see, there are many people who want to believe that God is compassionate and merciful, but they forget or want to delete the information that God is wise, just, has a system of reward and punishment - sends blessings and tribulations, gives and witholds. We see God as One who has more than 99 different attributes. He is Loving and Kind, but He is also all powerful who can do whatever He wills, while we can do nothing accept what He allows thru His will.

Quran is full of warnings to those who wish to taste paradise. If anyone wants to sit there and feel small or get offended by those verses, then its their choice, for those who take heed is again their choice.

Quran has divided people according to faith and further divided them according to the level of faith. It says the hearafter is more excellent in ranks than this world ... ie depending on ones status in serving the Lord.

Quran also says its a guidance for those who believe in it and a means to go astray for those who reject it.
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,
 
I am going to challenge what you say.
"Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith"
This means you know as little about Judaism and Christianity, much as others like to accuse of knowng little about Islam and muslims.  You throw all into one category. 

 
"technically speaking"... Do you really think God is a 'technical' God?  If He was then tell me how did he accept David with all of his flaws, faults, and sins?

 
What about the Jews today who are practicing the faith as it was always meant to be?  There are those you know.

 
And what about the Christians who are faithfully practicing the faith the way it was always intended?  There are those also.

 
Do even these have the wrath of God?  I think not.

 
Are there muslims who have the wrath of God?  I think so.  Does this mean we discard all muslims?

 
This is the problem with the teaching of the pride and the prejudice.  There are those who would be proud who truly have the wrath of God, and there are those against whom you would be prejudiced whom truly have the love of God.

 
The quran does not have what the early faith taught.  The quran does not even know what the early faith taught.  But the followers of the early faith do know.  This is why the quran refers you to seek those who have the book... the first scriptures.
"though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me. "
Would you have compassion and be there for her if she was being persecuted, knowing that she is a good person, would you stand up for your friend?  and if not, is it real friendship?  and do you really serve a loving God?

 
"greater love has no man than this, than he lay down his life for a friend"

 
This is love God approves.

 
"because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments. "
Perhaps they do not share your sentiments but this does not preclude caring about your sentiments.  It is possible to have differing beliefs and still care about people.  It is possible to care about and respect another persons beliefs even if you do not share them.  At least where I come from and the way I am raised.
 
"and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses."
In part you are correct... what matters is how they are practiced by the people who learn them... but also,
 here is the crux of the problem.  What if everyone were to say, 'it does not matter what YOU think'?  It always matters what others think.  If you take the attitude that it does not matter then understanding and peace can never be achieved.  We must care about how the other thinks or there will never be understanding... there will never be peace.  Who is it that wants continued misunderstanding and dissention among people?

 
ostentation... let's take a look at this...

 
The muslim way of dress could be considered a form of ostentation... a show or pretense of being better than everyone else... like the pharisees liked to parade or show themselves in their robes.

 
self glory - aren't the muslims taught to glorify themselves... that they are "the best of all peoples"?
 
 
"I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one."
It is good that you personally do not feel this way (although I would advise you to take a deep and honest look to be sure)...

 
but this is why we must view each as an individual because while you may not have learned from your scriptures to think you are better than others, there are others who have learned this very lesson, and are likely not even aware that they hold these judgements within themselves.  Who is the great deceiver?  Whose very words in the garden of Eden led Eve astray by their cunning use?

 
I don't think other people feel small or offended by those verses, but it is offensive that those others are taught to think themselves better... that is offensive.  The very fact that you could make such a statement reveals the hidden prejudice that you do have... that you do think you are better... that it's 'not your fault' if 'others feel small' because of you.

 
True servers of God are humble, knowing that they too, like all others, "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".  There are none who are "the best of peoples".  There are only people, individuals, judged in their hearts only by God Himself.

 
I am frankly surprised that my words made no impact on you.
"How would it be if I said that my god said, 'take no muslim as a friend because they are not followers of God', instead of considering how they conduct themselves in their lives as individuals?"

 
"To sort those who follow God's ways from those who do not is an entirely different matter." -- than what they call themselves by their faith or upbringing.
______________________________
 
I was just asking myself the question this morning;
 
 
Is there, honestly, any muslim who does not think he is better than everyone else?
Can you love a Jew or a Christian?
Let's compare this with what Jesus taught;
Jesus taught, 'every man is a sinner and if there is any that say otherwise, he is a liar'.
Jesus taught that no one is better than any other. He taught to embrace all in love.

 
It's not about who is better than another, at least it should not be... God created us all, and loves us all. Our Creator only wants what is best for us... He is our protector. His Word is to guide us in wisdom and to protect us... to teach us how to love ourselves, by loving the Father who gave us life, and to love one another.
 
 
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another...
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John)
 
 
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans)
 
 
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
 
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. (1 John 2)
 
 
We are all created by the Creator, and born of Adam... all brothers and sisters... all children of the Creator.
 
Salaam,
Caringheart


Hi Caringheart,

Sorry for jumping into yours and Nausheen's conversation. I think what Nausheen is saying is that she has nothing against most Jews and Christians as individual people, but believes our view of God is distorted and false, because it contradicts how He is described in the Quran. She believes Islam is the truth, and those who accept Islam follow the truth and those who reject Islam reject the truth.

I can understand that, because as a Christian that is also how I look at the world. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. His teachings are found in the Bible, we can choose to follow or reject them. He is the Son of God, and God who came to earth in the flesh. He died on the cross for our salvation, we can either be saved by believing in Him and He has done for us, or be condemned to hell by rejecting Him and what He has done for us.

I have many Muslim and other non-Christian friends. They are nice people, and some of them are more moral than some Christians I know, or people who claim to be. I have nothing but friendship for them. Yet I believe their beliefs are wrong, and if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell.

I would be willing to die for them and other non-Christians... and it was because I stood up for Palestinian Muslims in Hebron that my nose was broken with a metal pipe.

However, I strongly and emphatically reject Islam and Judaism and other non-Christian religions and belief systems. I acknowledge they contain some truths, but where they differ with what the Bible teaches I believe they are wrong.

I am not intolerant of non-Christians, but I do reject and in respectful discussion and debate I challenge whatever conflicts with what Christianity teaches. I don't mean ill to any Muslim, Jew, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, wiccan, etc but I believe they are wrong in their beliefs and pray they come to the Truth.


I think that Nausheen and many Muslims feel the same way about Islam as I feel about Christianity.


May the peace of Christ which surpasses all understanding be with you.


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Allah does not choose to lead anyone astray. People choose to go astray, and He chooses not to guide those who choose to go astray.
Hi Nausheen

Looking at the Qur'an, is there even a hint of free choice being granted to the infidels? Arguably, but only in one verse that I can find (17:97), and then, only in two of the five translations available on http://www.quranbrowser.org - http://www.quranbrowser.org .

Sher Ali and Yusuf Ali use the somewhat passive phrases:
"...whom He leaves to go astray.." and
"...whom He leaves astray.."

whereas three other translations on the same site (Khalifa, Picthall & Shakir) all use more active phrases:
"...whom He sends astray..."
"...whom He sendeth astray...",
"...whomsoever He causeth to err..."

So I guess we are, er, free to choose whichever translation feels right.

More importantly, however, 17:97 is only one out of four verses (2:7, 6:25, 17:97 and 18:57) which repeatedly mention Allah's active role in causing infidels to reject Islam. How? By 'cast[ing] a veil over their hearts...to prevent them from understanding'.

Please correct me if the broader context alters the meaning of these four verses, or if I'm using an unreliable source.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Children blame everything besides themselves when things go wrong.

As a father, I know just what you mean. But I don't hate or condemn my children.

Should I?


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Greetings Nausheen,
 
I am going to challenge what you say.
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
"Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith"
This means you know as little about Judaism and Christianity, much as others like to accuse of knowng little about Islam and muslims.  You throw all into one category. 
 


Hello Caringheart,

I want to ask you one question before I respond to your post.

How does christianity deal with Jews who have rejected Isa pbuh and his message? Do they receive salvation according to your faith? This is a simple question - no rehtoric etc. Please answer me.

Now my response to your 'bunching' everyone in one category comment ...

From one perspective all jews and all christians today are same - they have rejected Muhammad (pbuh), with just one exception, ie those to whom the news of Muhammad (pbuh) has not reached. [to further explain the context in which quran speaks of the people of the book, I have made a separate note at the end of this post]
According to Islamic faith salvation is through the followership of Muhammad pbuh. Those who do not accept his followership, have rejected a protion of their respective revelations - because the coming of last prophet is mentioned in former scriptures - which is not the subject of the current thread so I will not go into the detail of proving it to you right here. Im using this piece of information only to explain why according to the islamic faith jews and christians, despite living according to Torah or Bible are considered as rejecting faith.

Originally posted by Caringheart

"technically speaking"... Do you really think God is a 'technical' God?  If He was then tell me how did he accept David with all of his flaws, faults, and sins?
 


Rejecting faith is not a simple 'flaw'. There has been no prophet who rejected God's command. And we consider prophets as masum ie they're protected from sinning. Whatever follies they might have committed in their lives were never sins.


Originally posted by Caringheart

What about the Jews today who are practicing the faith as it was always meant to be?  There are those you know.


To beleive in Jesus and Bible was a command in their scripture, but when he came he was rejected. And the same was done to Muhammad peace be upon them. This rejection is very serious.

Originally posted by Caringheart

 
And what about the Christians who are faithfully practicing the faith the way it was always intended?  There are those also.


Same response as above. Christians deny the prophecy of Muhammad pbuh in their bible and then go on to reject him and the Quran. They may be following the bible, but not to the letter.

Now, let me guess what is going on in your mind. If you are thinking that simply because a muslim has accepted all prophets including Muhammad pbuh, he should be proud, treat the jews and christians with slight and should feel safe regarding his salvation - then you do not know Islam. because this is not what is meant.
What is meant is that the basic - bottom line requirement for salvation is acceptance of One God, ALL his messnegers, ALL His books and angels - this is first building block - its not everything, rather the starting point.


Originally posted by Caringheart

 
Do even these have the wrath of God?  I think not.
 

Caringheart, are we here to discuss a christian's impression of the Quran, or the intended message of the Quran? Please do not get me wrong. I do not mean to offend you, but what matters in the end is how well one understands the true message of the Quran, irrespective of what you think or I think.




Im not sure what you have understood by 'the context of first chapter' to clarify, Jews and christians are referred as
1. those who were true followers of Moses or Jesus peace be upon them, and were living according to their respective scriptures.
2. Those for whome one would say that the terms were mere lables.

As for the true followers, Allah will judge them according to their scriptures on the day of judgement if they lived and died before the complete message of Islam was delivered.
Once Islam has been completed (as it took 23 years to give it final shape), there is no other route to salvation.
Today there is no other religion acceptable before God. Therefore any to whome the message has reached, its their personal duty to accept. For those who are still unaware of the message, are the only one who will be excused.

.... You will find the nearest in love to Muslims those who say "we are Christians'. That is because amongst them are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the Quran revelation received by the Messenger (Muhammad), you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say ' O Lord! we believe; so write us down among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah (God) and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism)? and we wish our Lord admit us in Paradise along with righteous people (prophet Muhammad and his followers). So because of what they said, Allah (God) rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow in Paradise where they abide forever. Such is the reward of the good-doers. But those who disbelieved (Quran God revelation and Muhammad prophecy) they shall be the dwellers of the Hell"
[Quran, chapter 5, verses 82-86]


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 9:19pm
TG12345,

Thank you so much for this response, you've saved me a great deal of time and answered a few questions I had to Christians.

Originally posted by TG12345

 

Hi Caringheart,Sorry for jumping into yours and Nausheen's conversation. I think what Nausheen is saying is that she has nothing against most Jews and Christians as individual people, but believes our view of God is distorted and false, because it contradicts how He is described in the Quran. She believes Islam is the truth, and those who accept Islam follow the truth and those who reject Islam reject the truth.I can understand that, because as a Christian that is also how I look at the world. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. His teachings are found in the Bible, we can choose to follow or reject them. He is the Son of God, and God who came to earth in the flesh. He died on the cross for our salvation, we can either be saved by believing in Him and He has done for us, or be condemned to hell by rejecting Him and what He has done for us.[/quote]

Thank you for sharing this concept. I was confused by Caringheart's comments and wondered if evereyone was acceptable according to christianity. That would not make sense to me.


Originally posted by TG12345

 I have many Muslim and other non-Christian friends. They are nice people, and some of them are more moral than some Christians I know, or people who claim to be. I have nothing but friendship for them. Yet I believe their beliefs are wrong, and if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell.


My point exactly. I too believe in friendships with non-muslisms yet regard their belief as wrong and honestly I pray Allah shows them the light so they can be saved.
You wont believe my mother prays that for all Japanese, just because I live here.

I echo your sentiments and thank you for sharing them here. I pray you are able to see the light of Muahmmad through the light of Jesus, ameen. (peach and blessings of them both)

Originally posted by TG12345

 I would be willing to die for them and other non-Christians... and it was because I stood up for Palestinian Muslims in Hebron that my nose was broken with a metal pipe.


Im sorry for you!

Originally posted by TG12345

 However, I strongly and emphatically reject Islam and Judaism and other non-Christian religions and belief systems. I acknowledge they contain some truths, but where they differ with what the Bible teaches I believe they are wrong.I am not intolerant of non-Christians, but I do reject and in respectful discussion and debate I challenge whatever conflicts with what Christianity teaches. I don't mean ill to any Muslim, Jew, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, wiccan, etc but I believe they are wrong in their beliefs and pray they come to the Truth.I think that Nausheen and many Muslims feel the same way about Islam as I feel about Christianity. May the peace of Christ which surpasses all understanding be with you.


I am so relieved to see a mirror of my beliefs - it really makes discussions flow - otherwise we only end up hurting other's sensitivities and in the end get nothing.

Once again thank you!

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 9:27pm
Hello Nausheen,
 
Thank you for continuing this discussion, and you do not need to worry about offending me.

i understand the technicality of your religion. It is this that I challenge. Why the technicality? Why set people up against each other? Who would do this? the one who created them all? I don't think so. Why do you suppose your religion creates this divide? Can this truly be the religion of the God of Abraham?

Here's the thing. While I suppose I believe, because according to Jesus it has been taught... that at the end of days all will come to see the Truth that is Jesus... including the Jews who have currently rejected Him. This in no way precludes my treating them as equals on earth, and as friends deserving of all equal rights and treatment. It is judgement day that will separate the wheat from the chaff. That is the realm of God to determine, not humans. 

David's illicit relationship with Bathsheba was not a sin? Having her husband killed was not a sin?

Noah when he got drunk and had relations with his daughters... this was not a human sin?

Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land because God considered that he had sinned against Him.

Jacob did not sin when he deceived his father into givng him his brothers inheritance?

Solomon was absolutely guilty of sin in God's eyes as he took wives who led him away from God and back into idol worship.

 

"what matters in the end is how well one understands the true message of the Quran"

I agree and therein lies the problem... there are so many ways that the quran can be, and is, interpreted. It is impossible to define one true message of the quran except to accept that Muhammad was a prophet... and there were many false prophets, and Jesus said there would be many false prophets to come after Him. The age of prophesy ended... i.e., God stopped sending prophets when His temple in Jerusalem was destroyed and the Israelites became the diaspora... when they were no longer all together in one place God stopped sending prophets.

Was Muhammad meant to be a prophet to the children of Ishmael? I don't know, but if he was then to Ishmael's children only he was sent, if he was indeed sent by God, and lies and deception creeped into the Truth of God, if indeed, by God he was sent.

 

surah 5:82

Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud

What Muhammad was seeing in the Christians was their Love and humility, the Love and humility that comes from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Christians willing to reach out in Love and acceptance to those who do not believe, rather than condemn them, as Jesus did not condemn but rather invited to repentance. This is why Muhammad felt that the Christians were accepting of him where the Jews and idol worshipers were not. The difference is Christ Jesus. What he was seeing was the Love of Christians that comes through Christ.

You didn't answer this question;
"Are there muslims who have the wrath of God? I think so. Does this mean we discard all muslims?"
and this one;
"Can you love a Jew or a Christian?"
Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart
 
question;
 
What does it matter whether or not one accepts Muhammad as a prophet?  Isn't the thing that should matter, whether or not one serves God?  If I am honoring God in the same way you are honoring God, I simply do it for love of Jesus while you do it for love of Muhammad.... the Jews do it for love of God, period...
 
Isn't the thing that is going to matter to God, whether or not we served Him as He told us to serve Him...
 
"whenever you did for the least of these you did it for me, and when you did not do for the least you did not for me"  (parable of Jesus)
 
Don't you think that will be the thing God will be looking at... whether or not we had love for Him and for one another?  What is God, and what is the gift of life, if not Love itself?


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 5:13am
Originally posted by Nausheen

TG12345,

Thank you so much for this response, you've saved me a great deal of time and answered a few questions I had to Christians.

Salaam Alaikum, Nausheen. No problem at all.

Originally posted by TG12345

Hi Caringheart,Sorry for jumping into yours and Nausheen's conversation. I think what Nausheen is saying is that she has nothing against most Jews and Christians as individual people, but believes our view of God is distorted and false, because it contradicts how He is described in the Quran. She believes Islam is the truth, and those who accept Islam follow the truth and those who reject Islam reject the truth.I can understand that, because as a Christian that is also how I look at the world. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. His teachings are found in the Bible, we can choose to follow or reject them. He is the Son of God, and God who came to earth in the flesh. He died on the cross for our salvation, we can either be saved by believing in Him and He has done for us, or be condemned to hell by rejecting Him and what He has done for us.


Originally posted by Nausheen

Thank you for sharing this concept. I was confused by Caringheart's comments and wondered if evereyone was acceptable according to christianity. That would not make sense to me.

According to Christianity, God loves every person, and has made the ultimate sacrifice on the cross. Every person can accept or reject what God has done for them and choose to believe or not believe. Faith includes works, without works it is dead. Those who accept what He has done for us and choose to follow are saved. Those who do not are condemned. [/QUOTE]


Originally posted by TG12345

 I have many Muslim and other non-Christian friends. They are nice people, and some of them are more moral than some Christians I know, or people who claim to be. I have nothing but friendship for them. Yet I believe their beliefs are wrong, and if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell.


Originally posted by Nausheen

My point exactly. I too believe in friendships with non-muslisms yet regard their belief as wrong and honestly I pray Allah shows them the light so they can be saved.
You wont believe my mother prays that for all Japanese, just because I live here.

I definitely believe your mother does that. You sound like a caring and compassionate person, and when you talk to Christians and other non-Muslims you do it more respectfully than some others on this forum. You must have gotten it from someone. Smile

Originally posted by Nausheen

I echo your sentiments and thank you for sharing them here. I pray you are able to see the light of Muahmmad through the light of Jesus, ameen. (peach and blessings of them both) 

Thank you for your kind words. With all due respect and to be completely honest, although I do have respect for Muhammad and agree with some things he said and did, in other ways his message was the complete opposite of Christ's teachings and he unfortunately rejected Jesus' suffering for him- and for s all- on the cross. I cannot follow him without rejecting Jesus... which for me would include rejecting His teachings and sacrifice for us.

I pray and hope you will be able to see the light of Jesus, whether or not you are drawn to Him by Islam.

Originally posted by TG12345

 I would be willing to die for them and other non-Christians... and it was because I stood up for Palestinian Muslims in Hebron that my nose was broken with a metal pipe.


Originally posted by Nausheen

Im sorry for you!

Don't be. God made so much good come out of it. Prior to the attack on me and my friend, the villager's plight was unnoticed by some of the human rights groups, and even some Palestinians in Hebron were unaware of what was going on. The attack helped raise awareness to their plight, and now it is one of the places where CPT has a permanent presence.

I was treated with outmost kindness at the Palestinian hospital I stayed in, where I had my surgery where my nose was put back together (insert Michael Jackson joke here if you want LOL) and the surgery was a great success. I had over 100 visitors... people who just heard what happened and didn't even know me but came to visit me and brought food and best wishes, people who were complete strangers. I didn't cry from the beating, probably because I was immediately knocked out by the blow to my face, but I was choked up by the kindness my Palestinian visitors showed. Some of them were curious as to why a Christian would come from my country to help Muslims and some had questions about my beliefs and others wanted to share Islam with me. In both cases I was able to not only to have good discussion but also share my faith in Jesus. I also had a great discussion with an agnostic fellow activist who was curious about my faith after I got out of the hospital.

God allowed me to forgive my attackers and pray for them, this was one thing I wasn't sure if I would be able to do if I was in a situation like this one. He gave me the strength. Prior to me going to Palestine, I was struggling with some emotional problems caused by some things that happened in my life that I will not go into, God helped me immensely through this event to let go of them.

I did not go to the West Bank to get my a** kicked, although I went there knowing there was a possibility of getting hurt or worse but it was a risk I was willing to take. Getting harmed was not my intent in any way.

However, God made so much good come of it, I can only thank Him for it. Please do not be sad for me.

If you are interested in reading about the attack and its aftermath, here is an account and some pictures from the blog.

The story of what happened
http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/friday-morning-under-fig-tree-weekend.html

Pictures
http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/friday-morning.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/friday-morning-pictures-2.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/friday-morning-3.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/attack-aftermath-warning-graphic.html


And remember that whatever suffering I faced is laughable when compared to the horrific and often more harmful and deadly atrocities committed against our Palestinian Muslims and Christian brothers and sisters.

Check out the blog, and remember that the abuses we saw the IDF commit against our Palestinian friends is only the tip of the iceberg.

These are only some of the abuses we witnessed and heard of our Palestinian friends going through.

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/07/vicious-attack.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/07/crime-scene.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/07/al-arakib-destroyed.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/07/settler-tour.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/waging-war-against-civilians_11.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/people-being-attacked-and-arrested.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/another-beating-in-al-buweyre.html


Originally posted by TG12345

 However, I strongly and emphatically reject Islam and Judaism and other non-Christian religions and belief systems. I acknowledge they contain some truths, but where they differ with what the Bible teaches I believe they are wrong.I am not intolerant of non-Christians, but I do reject and in respectful discussion and debate I challenge whatever conflicts with what Christianity teaches. I don't mean ill to any Muslim, Jew, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, wiccan, etc but I believe they are wrong in their beliefs and pray they come to the Truth.I think that Nausheen and many Muslims feel the same way about Islam as I feel about Christianity. May the peace of Christ which surpasses all understanding be with you.


Originally posted by Nausheen

I am so relieved to see a mirror of my beliefs - it really makes discussions flow - otherwise we only end up hurting other's sensitivities and in the end get nothing.

Once again thank you!


Thank YOU for the great discussion! I am of the opinion that discussions about faith need to be honest, it is no use being politically correct if in the process we compromise the Truth.

Take care.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:06am
Originally posted by TG12345

 
Hi Caringheart,
Sorry for jumping into yours and Nausheen's conversation.
It's ok, all are welcome. Smile
It makes the conversation richer.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:14am
Something to add;

Jesus came to save the lost.

How do you define 'the lost'?   Only as someone who does not accept Muhammad?

See because I define the lost as one who does not know God.

There are many ways to know God, and there are many who know Him without knowing or accepting Muhammad.

I am sure that there are many who know Him without knowing Jesus.  Jesus is a way... He leads the lost.  If you are not lost do you need Jesus?  God knows which are lost and which know Him.  I beleive we are all given a knowing at birth, so some never get lost, others do and need a shepherd to lead them home.
 


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Something to add;

Jesus came to save the lost.

How do you define 'the lost'?   Only as someone who does not accept Muhammad?

See because I define the lost as one who does not know God.

There are many ways to know God, and there are many who know Him without knowing or accepting Muhammad.

I am sure that there are many who know Him without knowing Jesus.  Jesus is a way... He leads the lost.  If you are not lost do you need Jesus?  God knows which are lost and which know Him.  I beleive we are all given a knowing at birth, so some never get lost, others do and need a shepherd to lead them home.
 


Hi Caringheart,

Thanks for your understanding, please forgive me for jumping in once more.

Jesus did not say He is a way, He said He is the way.

John 14:5-7

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know "#fen-NIV-26676b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2014&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26676b - b ] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”


Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one God. You cannot know God without knowing Jesus. Jesus was God coming down in human form to teach us and live among us and give us His grace and His sacrifice.

A person cannot accept God while rejecting Him... there is no way to accept God while rejecting Jesus.



Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 4:58pm
Getting back to Ghazzali's original question of "what is this 'something else'", the Qur'an provides a clear and coherent answer in the four verses I referred to forum_posts.asp?TID=24137&PID=172508#172508 - above . Despite my unbelief I can still see the internal logic of that explanation, if we suppose such a God really exists. But it does make me wonder why we unbelievers are then singled out for the worst punishment, considering how deliberately we have been - and continue to be - handicapped. Am I the only one who finds this a bit unfair? Perhaps my question about fairness assumes a set of values that is not universal?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by nospam001

Getting back to Ghazzali's original question of "what is this 'something else'", the Qur'an provides a clear and coherent answer in the four verses I referred to forum_posts.asp?TID=24137&PID=172508#172508 - above . Despite my unbelief I can still see the internal logic of that explanation, if we suppose such a God really exists. But it does make me wonder why we unbelievers are then singled out for the worst punishment, considering how deliberately we have been - and continue to be - handicapped. Am I the only one who finds this a bit unfair? Perhaps my question about fairness assumes a set of values that is not universal?


You are not alone.  One of my biggest issues is with this notion of deception that is present in the quran.
My God is not a God of deception.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 10 January 2013 at 11:04pm
Folks, am drowned in your responses.

Will try to catch up with all of you by the end of this week. As for now, its 4:00 pm Japan local time, and am off to too many things till satruday, so come back on sunday.

Peace!

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:21am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Folks, am drowned in your responses.

Will try to catch up with all of you by the end of this week. As for now, its 4:00 pm Japan local time, and am off to too many things till satruday, so come back on sunday.

Peace!


Nausheen!!!! NO!!!!

You must respond.... NOW... if you DON'T... I will judge you and Islam and all Muslims in the world by the fact that you didn't drop everything you were doing, ignore any life you may have offline, forget friends and family... and IMMEDIATELY rush to respond to my brilliant and excellent arguments!!!

Just kidding of course. Take your time. Look forward to reading your thoughts and responses when you get around to posting.

Salaam wa Allahma3k. Smile


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

You are not alone. One of my biggest issues is with this notion of deception that is present in the quran.
My God is not a God of deception.
Hi Caringheart

Those same revelations may be missing from the Bible, but doesn't your God also deceive, by continuing to choose plausible deniability at every turn, thus avoiding any direct worldly intervention that might blow His cover? Perhaps, even, actively tampering with empirical observations wherever necessary to sustain the illusion?

No doubt the deception is all done for a worthy cause, such as testing the Faithful, or ensuring an ample supply of non-believers to 'make an example of'. But the same could also be said of http://quran.com/2/7 - 2:7 , http://quran.com/6/25 - 6:25 , http://quran.com/17/97 - 17:97 and http://quran.com/18/57 - 18:57 .

I'm not so bothered about the deception part. It's actually quite ingenious, the more I think about it.

What really irks me is the apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire just for my inability to remove a seal that Allah() placed on my heart expressly for the purpose of ensuring that I will never believe.

-------------
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by nospam001


Those same revelations may be missing from the Bible, but doesn't your God also deceive, by continuing to choose plausible deniability at every turn, thus avoiding any direct worldly intervention that might blow His cover? Perhaps, even, actively tampering with empirical observations wherever necessary to sustain the illusion?

No doubt the deception is all done for a worthy cause, such as testing the Faithful, or ensuring an ample supply of non-believers to 'make an example of'. But the same could also be said of http://quran.com/2/7 - 2:7 , http://quran.com/6/25 - 6:25 , http://quran.com/17/97 - 17:97 and http://quran.com/18/57 - 18:57 .

I'm not so bothered about the deception part. It's actually quite ingenious, the more I think about it.

What really irks me is the apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire just for my inability to remove a seal that Allah() placed on my heart expressly for the purpose of ensuring that I will never believe.


I'm a big Star Trek fan and whenever I think of God I am put in mind of the prime directive.
That we are meant to work things out for ourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mH-L6UCCAE
Smile


Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 2:22am
In The Name Of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Originally posted by nospam001

No doubt the deception is all done for a worthy cause, such as testing the Faithful, or ensuring an ample supply of non-believers to 'make an example of'. But the same could also be said of 2:7, 6:25, 17:97 and 18:57.

I'm not so bothered about the deception part. It's actually quite ingenious, the more I think about it.

What really irks me is the apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire just for my inability to remove a seal that Allah() placed on my heart expressly for the purpose of ensuring that I will never believe.

Hi nospam001,

The way I look at this is, the further you deviate from the righteous path, the further you are from it, the harder it is to return to it. And it is a reminder and a warning to the believers not to disbelieve. And Allah knows best.

If we contemplate, look around us and ask questions, and not distract ourselves in unworthily things, then we have made steps towards the truth. If we are sincere then there is no doubt that our Creator will answer to us and give us the truth. For you to be contemplating those versus indicates that you are seeking.

You have been given free will and if you choose to take the wrong path i.e. disbelieve then that is an individual's choice. Allah has given sign after sign after sign:
"And He has subjected for you the night and day and the sun and moon, and the stars are subjected by His command. Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason." (16:12)

He (the Almighty) also says:
"And if you should count the favor of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, mankind is [generally] most unjust and ungrateful." (14:34)

Indeed those favors are all around us. I don't need to go far, I'm looking at my fingers move, the mechanics behind this is overwhelming. Looking at my nails, it's fascinating how they are hard and positioned right at the tip of each finger. etc etc etc… Was this all by chance? Surely this is the Fashioner of forms, the best Creator.

"Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators." (23:14)

And if these signs are willingly disregarded, Allah won't force you to believe. Just like a teacher trying to teach their student, but if this student refuses to learn, you can't force them, it isn't just.

It isn't "apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire" as you may think, as this surah in it self mentions:
"So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment." (9:3)

Also, Hadith Qudsi (*):

"Allah the Almighty said: I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed. (1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty. It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah)."

http://sunnah.com/qudsi40/15 - http://sunnah.com/qudsi40/15

We need Allah, He doesn't need us and we need to surrender to Him and His will. If we do this, we are saved and there would be no seal on our hearts. But we have to make the choice ourselves. If we continue to disobey, then Allah will make it harder for us to seek the righteous path.

(*) Hadith Qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as revealed to him by the Almighty Allah. Hadith Qudsi (or Sacred Hadith) are so named because, unlike the majority of Hadith which are Prophetic Hadith, their authority (Sanad) is traced back not to the Prophet but to the Almighty.



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 5:26am
Originally posted by Rational

In The Name Of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Originally posted by nospam001

No doubt the deception is all done for a worthy cause, such as testing the Faithful, or ensuring an ample supply of non-believers to 'make an example of'. But the same could also be said of 2:7, 6:25, 17:97 and 18:57.

I'm not so bothered about the deception part. It's actually quite ingenious, the more I think about it.

What really irks me is the apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire just for my inability to remove a seal that Allah() placed on my heart expressly for the purpose of ensuring that I will never believe.

Hi nospam001,

The way I look at this is, the further you deviate from the righteous path, the further you are from it, the harder it is to return to it. And it is a reminder and a warning to the believers not to disbelieve. And Allah knows best.

If we contemplate, look around us and ask questions, and not distract ourselves in unworthily things, then we have made steps towards the truth. If we are sincere then there is no doubt that our Creator will answer to us and give us the truth. For you to be contemplating those versus indicates that you are seeking.

You have been given free will and if you choose to take the wrong path i.e. disbelieve then that is an individual's choice. Allah has given sign after sign after sign:
"And He has subjected for you the night and day and the sun and moon, and the stars are subjected by His command. Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason." (16:12)

He (the Almighty) also says:
"And if you should count the favor of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, mankind is [generally] most unjust and ungrateful." (14:34)

Indeed those favors are all around us. I don't need to go far, I'm looking at my fingers move, the mechanics behind this is overwhelming. Looking at my nails, it's fascinating how they are hard and positioned right at the tip of each finger. etc etc etc… Was this all by chance? Surely this is the Fashioner of forms, the best Creator.

"Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators." (23:14)

And if these signs are willingly disregarded, Allah won't force you to believe. Just like a teacher trying to teach their student, but if this student refuses to learn, you can't force them, it isn't just.

It isn't "apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire" as you may think, as this surah in it self mentions:
"So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment." (9:3)

Also, Hadith Qudsi (*):

"Allah the Almighty said: I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed. (1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty. It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah)."

http://sunnah.com/qudsi40/15 - http://sunnah.com/qudsi40/15

We need Allah, He doesn't need us and we need to surrender to Him and His will. If we do this, we are saved and there would be no seal on our hearts. But we have to make the choice ourselves. If we continue to disobey, then Allah will make it harder for us to seek the righteous path.

(*) Hadith Qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as revealed to him by the Almighty Allah. Hadith Qudsi (or Sacred Hadith) are so named because, unlike the majority of Hadith which are Prophetic Hadith, their authority (Sanad) is traced back not to the Prophet but to the Almighty.



I have to agree with Rational, here. God says in the Bible also that those who seek Him with a sincere heart will find Him.

Proverbs 8:17

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me


However, people who turn away from God will not only not find Him, but are likely to fall into all sorts of sin. God does not make people sin, but He allows them to do so, because we have free will.

The way I see it, we serve 2 masters... either we serve God, or we will serve someone or something other than God. When we turn away from God, we fall to sin. This applies also for believers, when we pray less, read the Bible less, be less serious about trying to please God, we are more vulnerable to doing bad things.

Romans 1:18-32

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Although Rational is a Muslim and I am a Christian and we have many points of disagreement in our beliefs, on this I agree with him.

God is our Creator and our Lord. We can choose to serve Him, or choose not to. If we do not serve God we serve those others than God, and sin invevitably follows.

I don't agree that God makes it harder for sinners to come to Him, rather, I think it is our sins that do that.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 6:51am
Originally posted by Caringheart


 Are there muslims who have the wrath of God?  I think so.  Does this mean we discard all muslims?


Definitely.
I dont know what you mean by discard, but we are discussing the 'actions' of people that incure anger and wrath of Allah. Most certainly those muslims who are incurring wrath of Allah, we must not follow in their foot steps.
This argument might get convoluted if you want to ask why the Quran does not mention the rejection of wrathful actions of muslims. This is because the word Muslim means 'one who submits' so when this word is mentioned it is not just a lable to a group rather a definition.


Originally posted by Caringheart

This is the problem with the teaching of the pride and the prejudice.  There are those who would be proud who truly have the wrath of God, and there are those against whom you would be prejudiced whom truly have the love of God.


I dont think muslims who read these verses become Mr Fitzwilliam Darcy of Pemberley, Derbyshire!


Originally posted by Caringheart

The quran does not have what the early faith taught.  The quran does not even know what the early faith taught.  But the followers of the early faith do know.  This is why the quran refers you to seek those who have the book... the first scriptures.



The Author of the Quran in our belief is God almighty who says about himself:
"If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement."

Therefore, just because the Quran says in certain places to go and ask the people of the book, or go and ask those who had knowledge before you, does not mean the All knowledgeable, Almighty needs to extract information from other sources.


Originally posted by Caringheart

<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
"though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me. "
Would you have compassion and be there for her if she was being persecuted, knowing that she is a good person, would you stand up for your friend?  and if not, is it real friendship? 


I would have responded if you had left this question open ended.
Your 'if not' argument puts me on the defensive and I dont want to defend myself. I will leave it up to you to judge whatever you like.

Originally posted by Caringheart

<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
"because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments. "
Perhaps they do not share your sentiments but this does not preclude caring about your sentiments.  It is possible to have differing beliefs and still care about people.  It is possible to care about and respect another persons beliefs even if you do not share them.  At least where I come from and the way I am raised.


I respect Ram, Krishna, Budhdha and any whom my friends hold in high regard, or even as deities - just because these figures are of special value to them. I expect the same from them in regards to Muhammad pbuh. Although Im open to any discussion where people say they cannot believe Muhammad pbuh as a true messenger of God. However I dont want to discuss unreasonable attacks on his personality. My sentiments, and that of any true muslim are that we love our messenger above anything else, more than our selves, our family, spouses, children etc etc. So anyone who cannot understand these sentiments, its better not to mix with them, otherwise when sentiments get hurt, to remain noble and do the honorable things becomes somewhat a test. And I believe friendships are smooth, easygoing, comforting relationships. They are not burdensome load we have to carry on our souls - this is just my personal perception about friendships, not trying to make any debate out of it.

Originally posted by Caringheart

 here is the crux of the problem.  What if everyone were to say, 'it does not matter what YOU think'?  It always matters what others think.  If you take the attitude that it does not matter then understanding and peace can never be achieved.  We must care about how the other thinks or there will never be understanding... there will never be peace.  Who is it that wants continued misunderstanding and dissention among people?


Forgive me Caringheart, but I could not see you asking to reach for an understanding ... This post I am responding to is on the 10 page of this string. If you please go back and read where this argument is going. To me, (I hope am wrong) this is getting to a place where you are telling us what you think, no matter how much, or whichever way we tell you its not how we take things, its not helping.

Originally posted by Caringheart

ostentation... let's take a look at this...
 
The muslim way of dress could be considered a form of ostentation... a show or pretense of being better than everyone else... like the pharisees liked to parade or show themselves in their robes.
 

self glory - aren't the muslims taught to glorify themselves... that they are "the best of all peoples"?


 
 
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
"I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one."
It is good that you personally do not feel this way (although I would advise you to take a deep and honest look to be sure)...
 
but this is why we must view each as an individual because while you may not have learned from your scriptures to think you are better than others, there are others who have learned this very lesson, and are likely not even aware that they hold these judgements within themselves.


Going back to my first response. In the end what matters is how the scripture is meant to be taken. Everybody will be judged according to what they do, and the basis of that judgement with be the true knowledge contained in the scripture.
If Quran is teaching A and someone is understanding B out of it, no body will be able to blame the Quran on the day of judgement.

The hadith says one who has even a mustard seed of pride in his heart will not enter paradise.
This hadith does not identify the person according to his faith, race, color or anything ... just anybody, any human being who has pride, even the size of a mustard seed ...



 
Originally posted by Caringheart

Who is the great deceiver?  Whose very words in the garden of Eden led Eve astray by their cunning use?
 
I don't think other people feel small or offended by those verses, but it is offensive that those others are taught to think themselves better... that is offensive.  The very fact that you could make such a statement reveals the hidden prejudice that you do have... that you do think you are better... that it's 'not your fault' if 'others feel small' because of you.


It is not my fault that Allah praises the believer and admonishes the disbeliever.
The underlying problem of those who attibute the linguistic nature of Quran as my fault is that they cannot come to terms with the fact that I believe the Quran to be the Word of God and not a human composition.
This whole argument is stemming from this basic problem.


Originally posted by Caringheart

True servers of God are humble, knowing that they too, like all others, "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". 


I did not say they are not. If your read my post again --- I said the best of slaves are those who are most humble to their Lord The closest relationship is that of an abd - a humble slave and the Mighty Lord.
The verses we are talking about are not written by the slaves, these are written for the slaves, by their Lord.
You don't want to believe its from the Lord, you want to believe its from the slave himself to himself - thus the blame and all the fuss.
But you are not listening. Those who believe in the verses being from the Lord, they dont find a sense of pride within them. They find humility within them.


Originally posted by Caringheart

There are none who are "the best of peoples".  There are only people, individuals, judged in their hearts only by God Himself.


Is God not allowed to voice His judgement about people in this world? Is He supposed to save it all for the judgement day?
Why?

Why should He not tell a new generation to abstain from the wrongs of an old generation that has earned his anger? Why should He keep it a mystery till the end?


Originally posted by Caringheart

I am frankly surprised that my words made no impact on you.<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
"How would it be if I said that my god said, 'take no muslim as a friend because they are not followers of God', instead of considering how they conduct themselves in their lives as individuals?"


If you dont say this I will be surprised and confused. Read TG12345 and my response to him.
Your stance and your sensitivity on the issue is confusing.
Mathew 21-23
Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heavens, but one doing the will of my father who is in the heaven will. Many who say to me that day, Lord,Lord did we not prophecy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name? And yet I will confess to them get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.

Are these words not distinguishing those who believe in Jesus and those who reject him?

Originally posted by Caringheart

]"To sort those who follow God's ways from those who do not is an entirely different matter." -- than what they call themselves by their faith or upbringing.


The verses in context of which you are discussing this say ... It is you We worship iyyaka na'abudu - this is like a declaration that O lord, we worship you, so count us as your worshipers.

and goes on to say, since we worship you and you alone, please guide us to your way ie please prevent us from going astray... show your guidance to us because it is You who we worship


...and do not have your anger dierected towards on us, and do not make us go astray.

because those who got lost from your guidance, received your anger and went astray, so protect us from becoming like those , protect us from losing your straight path.


Have you not noticed that plea for guidance part ... its a prayer, a requests to God from the one who first makes his case before Him by saying - 'its you who we worship'

Originally posted by Caringheart

I was just asking myself the question this morning; Is there, honestly, any muslim who does not think he is better than everyone else?


Being a muslim is a continuous process. One has to be a muslim in every moment of their lives, and every moment has a new demand ... in some of those we behave like a muslim while in others we fall short of that ... That is why five times a day when we bow down to our Lord we ask him to Guide us.
We are also supposed to seek repentance at least 100 times a day.
This repentance is not just for actions alone, but for intentions and notions of the heart ... If we let a blameworthy notion take its dwelling in the heart then we must repent.
If we think of us as great, this is a blameworthy notion.It entails repentance.


Originally posted by Caringheart

Can you love a Jew or a Christian?


Is that a plural you - like you musims, or exclusively myself?
I dont have a problem loving even Hindus or Budhists - at the moment I am not in touch with any Jew. In fact most of my friends are either hindus or budhists because I grew up in India and now I live in Japan.
Okay there s one exception - I have made friends with the Jehova witness lady, she is perhaps more than 70 years old, and probably I am going to fall in love with her - because I love old people and I m loving her ways already ;)

Originally posted by Caringheart

Let's compare this with what Jesus taught;
Jesus taught, 'every man is a sinner and if there is any that say otherwise, he is a liar'.
I believe Jesus pbuh is right. Because prophet muhammad pbuh taught us to seek forgiveness agaist sins 70 times a day, and he likewise seeked forgiveness everyday.


Originally posted by Caringheart

Jesus taught that no one is better than any other. He taught to embrace all in love.

We know it similary from the Quran that noone is better except in their devotion to God, and this is something which only God can judge, so no one is in a position to make claims.

Originally posted by Caringheart

It's not about who is better than another, at least it should not be... God created us all, and loves us all. Our Creator only wants what is best for us... He is our protector. His Word is to guide us in wisdom and to protect us... to teach us how to love ourselves, by loving the Father who gave us life, and to love one another.
 
 
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another...
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John)
  
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans)
  
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
 
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. (1 John 2)
 
 
We are all created by the Creator, and born of Adam... all brothers and sisters... all children of the Creator.





I dont dispute you in these words.

Quran 24:35
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly <font color="white"> star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 1:30pm
Greetings Nausheen,
"I would have responded if you had left this question open ended.
Your 'if not' argument puts me on the defensive and I dont want to defend myself."
Thank you for this insight.  Is there any way I can take you off the defensive so that you may answer the question?

"My sentiments, and that of any true muslim are that we love our messenger above anything else, more than our selves, our family, spouses, children etc etc."
I have heard this before from you, and from other muslims, and I wish to ask... So often my faith is attacked because it is said that a follower of Jesus worships Jesus with God... takes Him as a partner with God.  Do you see that you exalt Muhammad to a level with God?  Shouldn't your greatest love be for God, not Muhammad?  I always, always, speak of my love for God.  Jesus simply leads me to Him.
You are correct though, friendships are always easiest with those who share our beliefs, ideas, and values.  That is why we will usually make friendships with those who share our values.  I believe I share your values, just not through the same faith.

"It is not my fault that Allah praises the believer and admonishes the disbeliever."
Ah, but herein lies the problem, herein lies the pride expressed in the quran(and I do not believe God would encourage pride)... Who to your mind is the believer?  I do not think it is defined by the faith by which you call yourself.  I think it is defined by the heart, which only God can see.  God loved David.  David who by all human definition was a grave sinner.  God must have known something about his heart.  God considered David a believer.   I too am a believer, but I would never say that I am 'the best of all peoples' or presume to be the condemner of others.  I will always try to share and lead others to God and His way, but I will not condemn others because they have not yet found Him.  It is up to God to work in the hearts of men, and in His time.

"Those who believe in the verses being from the Lord, they don't find a sense of pride within them. They find humility within them."
I can agree with that, if the people don't equate the words 'the best of all peoples' with the word 'muslim'.  The best of all peoples, and those to whom God bestows His blessings and Love, would be those who are submitted to God, and this can include many, muslim or non-muslim, while I am sure there are many 'muslims' who can be excluded.

and if they don't equate the words, 'those whom have earned the wrath of God', with all Jews,
or the words, 'those who are astray', with all those who follow Jesus.
There are those who are astray, those who have earned God's wrath, and unbelievers amongst all people.  This is my argument.

"Are these words not distinguishing those who believe in Jesus and those who reject him? "
No.  It is distinguishing those who do the will of God from those who did not.
"Whenever you did for the least of your brothers, you did it for Me, and when you did not for the least of your brothers you did not for Me."
This is about the command to love one another.  Jesus taught us Love above all else.
Which is the greatest commandment they asked;
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and the second is like it;
love your brother as yourself."

"I have made friends with the Jehova witness lady, she is perhaps more than 70 years old, and probably I am going to fall in love with her - because I love old people and I m loving her ways already ;) "
as I feel I have fallen in love with you and your ways.  Smile


I admire your great devotion, I just think it is misplaced.

Peace and blessings,
Caringheart


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 12 January 2013 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Rational

If we contemplate, look around us and ask questions, and not distract ourselves in unworthily things, then we have made steps towards the truth. If we are sincere then there is no doubt that our Creator will answer to us and give us the truth...You have been given free will and if you choose to take the wrong path i.e. disbelieve then that is an individual's choice.
Hi Rational

Those were exactly my assumptions too, until I read http://quran.com/2/7 - 2:7 , http://quran.com/6/25 - 6:25 , http://quran.com/17/97 - 17:97 and http://quran.com/18/57 - 18:57 .

Carefully.

In every translation, these four verses make it crystal clear that some will never believe, not because of their own free will but because of a special veil or seal placed on their hearts by Allah() Himself "so they understand [it] not".

I can see why one might prefer to discuss another subject rather than face the implications of that phrase.

Allah() has not sealed the hearts and ears of every unbeliever, obviously, otherwise none would ever convert to Islam. For many perhaps, the inspirational verses you quoted would have reached their target unimpeded.

But for me, well.. it seems I must be one of those whom He has chosen to make an example of. That would certainly explain why twenty years of seeking has not brought me any closer to belief, contrary to all expectations.

-------------
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.



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