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To, The Hadith Haters

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24121
Printed Date: 28 November 2014 at 9:30pm


Topic: To, The Hadith Haters
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: To, The Hadith Haters
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 4:13am



Miqdam bin Ma'dikarib Al-Kindi narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah () said: "Soon there will come a time that a man will be reclining on his pillow, and when one of my Ahadith is narrated he will say: 'The Book of Allah is (sufficient) between us and you. Whatever it states is permissible, we will take as permissible, and whatever it states is forbidden, we will take as forbidden.' Verily, whatever the Messenger of Allah () has forbidden is like that which Allah has forbidden."
Arabic/English book reference      : Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 12



Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 3:48pm
And of course you see nothing illogical about using the hadith to justify the authenticity of the hadith. Wink

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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 12:01am

Thus the Prophet () affirms his own authority as being no less than that of Supreme Being ().



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God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 2:14am
Originally posted by nospam001

Thus the Prophet () affirms his own authority as being no less than that of Supreme Being ().

 
The Prophet (pbuh) has been given special dispensation where his followers are to obey him because everything he says id from God.
 
Sahih International
 
Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. 3:31
 
And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy. 3:132
 
He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. 4:80
 
 
 


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 3:07am
Assalamu alaika Ron Webb.

Yes indeed there is nothing illogical in Allah stating that those who are averse to reality will never see it, how much Hard He tries to show them that reality. I am sure you will never believe that the heavens (sky) were raised without pillars that you can see!

Friendship.



Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 3:16am
Assalami alaika nospam001.

Indeed Muhammad's authority is in reality superior than that of Allah. It is not the Qur'an that is behind al-Qaeeda, Taliban, unemployment, recession and the conflict between the Arabs nations, but rather and precisely the rejection of the Sunna of Muhammad - the Caliphate.


Friendship.

 


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 7:18am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalami alaika nospam001.

Indeed Muhammad's authority is in reality superior than that of Allah. 
 
 
This statement requires repentance at the very least, and a renewal of shahaadah depending upon one's intention and understanding. Wallahu Mustaan!


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 8:14am
Originally posted by abuayisha

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalami alaika nospam001.

Indeed Muhammad's authority is in reality superior than that of Allah. 
 
 
This statement requires repentance at the very least, and a renewal of shahaadah depending upon one's intention and understanding. Wallahu Mustaan!
 
Well to be honest, I suspected Friendhip to be peculiar when s/he thinks that the answer to Islam lies with the Jews and their Rabbis.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalami alaika nospam001.
Indeed Muhammad's authority is in reality superior than that of Allah. It is not the Qur'an that is behind al-Qaeeda, Taliban, unemployment, recession and the conflict between the Arabs nations, but rather and precisely the rejection of the Sunna of Muhammad - the Caliphate.
Friendship.



Greetings Friendship,

I respect your idealism but.
The caliphate ruled over the Ottoman empire, and I have been told by separate people that the Muslims hold no fondness for the Ottoman empire.  So please explain.  How do you explain that?

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Well to be honest, I suspected Friendhip to be peculiar when s/he thinks that the answer to Islam lies with the Jews and their Rabbis.


Friendship is seeking peace through Truth and brotherhood of all, which is the right way to go.  He is still somewhat entrenched however in an idealistic belief in Islam.  He may have a ways to go to work out his confusion but at least he is seeking a right path.  Truth will be revealed by God and only God.

Salaam


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 5:44pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The Prophet (pbuh) has been given special dispensation where his followers are to obey him because everything he says id from God.
...
 
And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy. 3:132

And how does one obey a Messenger?  By obeying his Message, of course; but in doing so you are obeying Allah, not Muhammad.  You were never told to obey Muhammad as Muhammad, but only in his capacity as a Messenger.

"Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition." 7:3 (Ali)



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 3:05am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Friendship is seeking peace through Truth and brotherhood of all, which is the right way to go.  He is still somewhat entrenched however in an idealistic belief in Islam.  He may have a ways to go to work out his confusion but at least he is seeking a right path.  Truth will be revealed by God and only God.

Salaam
 
Wrong! A muslim who reveres and worships Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) before Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is not a Muslim. That is clear shirk.
 
With regarrd to engaging with the Rabbis and the Jews that period is over, they had their chance and they blew it so many times. After Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was chosen as the final messenger to mankind we must follow him for salvation. Otherwise, there is no point in revealing the final message to mankind.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 10:29am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The Prophet (pbuh) has been given special dispensation where his followers are to obey him because everything he says id from God....And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy. 3:132


And how does one obey a Messenger? By obeying his Message, of course; but in doing so you are obeying Allah, not Muhammad. You were never told to obey Muhammad as Muhammad, but only in his capacity as a Messenger.


"Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition." 7:3 (Ali)



Allah Ho Akbar, you got that 100% right Ron.
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Friendship is seeking peace through Truth and brotherhood of all, which is the right way to go.  He is still somewhat entrenched however in an idealistic belief in Islam.  He may have a ways to go to work out his confusion but at least he is seeking a right path.  Truth will be revealed by God and only God.

Salaam
Originally posted by Abu Loren

With regarrd to engaging with the Rabbis and the Jews that period is over, they had their chance and they blew it so many times. After Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was chosen as the final messenger to mankind we must follow him for salvation. Otherwise, there is no point in revealing the final message to mankind.


You know, no one has ever been able to say to me what it is exactly that the Jews do TODAY, that is so wrong. (and I am not talking about leaders... I am talking about people)
Yes in times past God has been displeased with the Jews, but that was then... what about now... are they judged for all time on past behavior, and can you make one judgement on all Jews?  No, you can not.  There are those who live by God's laws and in God's ways, and there are those who do not... just as in all groups of people and in all religions.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 29 October 2012 at 12:56am
Originally posted by Caringheart


You know, no one has ever been able to say to me what it is exactly that the Jews do TODAY, that is so wrong. (and I am not talking about leaders... I am talking about people)
Yes in times past God has been displeased with the Jews, but that was then... what about now... are they judged for all time on past behavior, and can you make one judgement on all Jews?  No, you can not.  There are those who live by God's laws and in God's ways, and there are those who do not... just as in all groups of people and in all religions.
 
The Jewish people are worshipping God Almighty in a corrupted way, when they rejected Isa (pbuh) as their Messiah they missed the boat, that was the last chance given to Bani Israel.
 
Sahih International
 
Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse,
Except for those who repent and correct themselves and make evident [what they concealed]. Those - I will accept their repentance, and I am the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together, 2:159-161
 
In verse 160 those who repent and correct themselves means that they must accept the True religion of Islam. This was made evident to the Jews by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but they still rejected him and his message.
This also applies to anyone who wants salvation, they must believe in the final revelation to mankind.
 
The covenent that was established by Prophet Musa (pbuh) is now null and void as for a covenent to be in force both parties must abide by it.  Otherwise there is no need for a new message and revelation from the final messenger to mankind. Also what we have today is three 'forms' of worship in God Almighty Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. This is not acceptable as God wants worship in a manner that he ordained. The Jews and the Christians lost this and only the Muslims are doing this worship in the proper manner prescribed.
 
Ask yourself what is the point in sending a final revelation to mankind if people are worshipping God any way they pleased? It has to be the way He wants to worship Him. This is the whole reason why the Jews and Christians are asked to submit as Muslims and follow the final way to salvation. He has given as the Straight Way, the only way to salvation.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 October 2012 at 9:41pm
@Abu Loren,

Thank you for your reply.

What is the "true religion of Islam"?
How does it disagree with Jewish practice?

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 1:24pm
It was narrated from Abu
Sa'eed al-Khudri that the
Messenger of Allaah (peace
and blessings of Allaah be
upon him) said: "Do not write
anything from me; whoever has written anything from me
other than the Qur'aan, let him
erase it and narrate from me,
for there is nothing wrong
with that." (Narrated by
Muslim, al-Zuhd wa'l-Raqaa'iq, 5326)


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 31 October 2012 at 2:15pm
http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_1/history_hadith_1_(P1148).html

http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/asadi-koranandhadith.shtml


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 10:17am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Ask yourself what is the point in sending a final revelation to mankind if people are worshipping God any way they pleased? It has to be the way He wants to worship Him.

What if the point is for people to worship God "any way they please"?  "The way He wants [us] to worship Him" is fully specified in the Quran.  Beyond that, is it so improbable that (just like us) God actually loves diversity and creativity and imagination, and despises rote learning and mindless repetition of formulaic prayers?  What if by giving us free will and intelligence, God actually intended us to use that free will and intelligence?  What if He prefers billions of different celebrations of life and faith, instead of endless repetitions of the same old same old?

-----
I was reminded of this discussion when I encountered an article by Anwar al-Awlaki, " http://theunjustmedia.com/Islamic%20Perspectives/Jan11/The%20Ruling%20on%20Dispossessing%20the%20Disbelievers%20wealth%20in%20Dar%20al-Harb.htm - The Ruling on Dispossessing the Disbelievers wealth in Dar al-Harb ".  At first I thought to make this a separate topic, but the fact is that nobody here (I hope!) actually wants to defend this article so it might make for a rather one-sided discussion.

My point in referencing the article is that IMHO al-Awlaki's argument is very compelling, if you accept the sunnah and hadith as legitimate authority.  You'll note that the article relies almost entirely on those sources, and on Hanafi rulings which in turn rely heavily on them.  It makes almost no reference to the Quran.

Al-Awlaki's main conclusion is that "All of our scholars agree on the permissibility of taking away the wealth of the disbelievers in dar al-harb whether by means of force or by means of theft or deception."  My question is: assuming that you don't agree with this, how can you challenge it without rejecting the premises on which it is based?



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 10:39am
Assalamu alaika Ronn.

To answer you, you have to define and explain the meaning of 'disbelievers' in a scientific way. Give its origin and application with examples.
My advice is: it is wrong in Islam that is the final Message to believe in what some one says. It is not allowed for one to speak on something he does not understand. Much of our problem could have solved have we stuck to the teaching of Muhammad Rasulullah. Now, if you want me to reply, you will never understand because you do not know the history of Muhammad especially the causation of his actions.
Please use your common sense: If what they said is true, why did Muhammad not attack the Makkans who drove him forcefully from his birth place Makka? 

Friendship


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Ask yourself what is the point in sending a final revelation to mankind if people are worshipping God any way they pleased? It has to be the way He wants to worship Him.

What if the point is for people to worship God "any way they please"?  "The way He wants [us] to worship Him" is fully specified in the Quran.  Beyond that, is it so improbable that (just like us) God actually loves diversity and creativity and imagination, and despises rote learning and mindless repetition of formulaic prayers?  What if by giving us free will and intelligence, God actually intended us to use that free will and intelligence?  What if He prefers billions of different celebrations of life and faith, instead of endless repetitions of the same old same old?



You are quite correct Ron,

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name........

The words of Jesus.



Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 12:22pm

Originally posted by Friendship

To answer you, you have to define and explain the meaning of 'disbelievers' in a scientific way. Give its origin and application with examples.

It's really more a question of how al-Awlaki defines it, since he is the one using the word; but it's pretty obvious from the article that he is referring to all non-Muslims.

My advice is: it is wrong in Islam that is the final Message to believe in what some one says. It is not allowed for one to speak on something he does not understand. Much of our problem could have solved have we stuck to the teaching of Muhammad Rasulullah. Now, if you want me to reply, you will never understand because you do not know the history of Muhammad especially the causation of his actions.

I understand al-Awlaki's article.  I'm not sure why you don't think I would understand your reply.

Please use your common sense: If what they said is true, why did Muhammad not attack the Makkans who drove him forcefully from his birth place Makka? 

Well first of all, I don't think it's true, because I don't believe the premise on which it is based, i.e. I don't believe that Muhammad (or Allah) ever intended the sunnah and hadith to become part of eternal Muslim doctrine.  But if I did, I would simply respond by saying that Muhammad was not in a position to attack anybody when he was forced from Mecca.  I have no doubt that he would have, if he could have.

The more important question is, if you don't believe it's true, then how do you refute his argument?



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 1:08pm
Assalamu alaika Ronn.

The problem of the followers of Muhammad is this: They do not believe that the holy Qur'an is referring to them. They regard disbelief etc to apply only to those who had prophets before them and that whatever they do they are not disbelievers. So, how can you argue with such kind of people? It is wrong for example to address you as a disbeliever because you do not believe in the Message Muhammad brought. it is wrong to call and address West as disbelievers likewise.
If the property of disbelievers is to be possessed Muhammad could not have told his people to forget about their property in Makka after the conquest. Secondly, they could not be requested to pay for  protection money since they do not participate in such battles. If the West want honestly to know Islam they have the means.
The truth is: All the battles fought by Muhammad were defensive. He fought the Arabs who broke agreements. He fought the Roman empire that threatened his existence.
Both the Qur'an and the hadith are eternal. The Qur'an describes the physical world and all that we know. The hadith describes that security and peace all the wishes and needs of man ARE TIED TO OBEDIENCE TO MUHAMMAD. OTHERWISE IT IS NOTHING BUT A CONSTRAINED WAY OF LIFE. I THINK, THE TIME HAS COME TO OPEN OUR EARS TO THOSE CALLING FOR A PEACEFUL WORLD. IT IS NOT THE SUNNA THAT HAS FAILED BUT ITS APPLICATION IS DISTORTED AND TWISTED.


Friendship.














 



Posted By: Beebok
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 10:00am
Ron Webb, "And how does one obey a Messenger?  By obeying his Message, of course; but in doing so you are obeying Allah, not Muhammad."

The same is probably true of the statement attributed to Jesus in the Bible where he is supposed to have said, "if you have seen me, you have seen God."

If a king sends a messenger, and someone refuses to see the messenger, then they have in effect, refused to see the king.

Alas, we can not know what Jesus actually said from the Bible. But if he did say such a thing, this was probably his meaning.


Posted By: Beebok
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 10:07am
" What if by giving us free will and intelligence, God actually intended us to use that free will and intelligence? "

What if God gave us free will and intelligence to determine that Islam is the true religion and that it is the right way?

A truly compassionate God would not leave us without a map of the best way to worship.
It is a neglectful and uncaring God that leaves His creation to blunder and stumble.
To leave us in a chaos of confusion and conjecture would be a lack of compassion.
Hence, the Quran begins with, "In the name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful."
He had the kindness and love to show us the right way.
And so, there is no reason for us to be ungrateful and arrogant to reject that way in favor of our own ways.



Posted By: Beebok
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 10:22am
Hadith Doubters,

Here is a bit from "A Textbook of Hadith Studies, authenticity, compilation, classification, and criticism of hadith," by Mohammad Hashim Kamali, page 34:
"Al-Bukhari committed himself to include only the Sound hadith in his collection....
Al-Bukhari included hadith with an unbroken isnad narrated by upright and retentive individuals (al-udul al-dabitin) which were also free of defet ('illa) and oddities (shudhudh), and the narrators had met with one another."


Let's look at that sentence bit by bit,
1. "an unbroken "isnad"
That means an unbroken chain of transmission.

2. by upright and retentive individuals
"Upright" means that their reputations were completely intact. If there was the slightist bit of doubt about the narrator, Bukhari would write something like, fihi nazar, or "one has to look into him," or tarakuhu (abandoned). Hadith narrated by such people did not get included in his collection.
"Retentive" means that they were known to have good memories.

3. The narrators who received from one to the other had met with one another.

4. The hadith were themselves free from oddities and defects.

Each of those above 4 had their own rules and criteria for getting verified.

Quoting again from Kamali's "Hadith Studies," page 34-35:
"Al-Bukhari (and Muslim's) chain of isnad has been characterised as to rely in the first place on the narration of hadith from the Prophet by a verified Companion whose identity as a Companion is free of doubt. This is narrated in turn by two upright Followers, or by one Follower who is verified by at least two narrators for having transmiited hadith from the Co panions.
The third link in al-Bukhari's chain of isnad consists of an upright and retentive Successor (tabi tabi'i) from whom other narrators (in the fourth generation) have also reported.
The fifth link in al-Bukhari's isnad is likely to be al-Bukharis own shaykh/teacher who is an uprigt and retentive narrator.
He did not reord hadith from narrators whose trustworthiness  he doubted. It was very important for al-Bukhari to ensure that al least two people had narrated hadith from the preceding links, be it a Companion, Follower, Successor and so on.


Later on page 37, Kamali writes,
"Al-Bukhari's conditions of admitting a hadith as a Sahih hadith signified not only that the immediate links in the chain of isnad were contemporeries of one another, but also that they had actually met and direct hearing took place between the teacher and disciple.
....
...al-Bukhari required proof of an actual encounter between the transmitter and recipient of hadith."







Posted By: Beebok
Date Posted: 25 November 2012 at 10:28am
"And of course you see nothing illogical about using the hadith to justify the authenticity of the hadith."

That hadith makes a prediction which came true, and so it adds credence and strengthens evidence for the reliability of hadith.
That should have been obvious to see, unless one is desperate to find fault.
So, there was nothing illogical with Abu Loren's argument.



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