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Who are We ? (Revisited)

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Printed Date: 29 August 2014 at 3:11pm


Topic: Who are We ? (Revisited)
Posted By: m.sumair
Subject: Who are We ? (Revisited)
Date Posted: 21 September 2012 at 5:50am
     "see pt.7 on pg 4"

Now this question is been bothering me for sometimes now. I am confused at our behaviour, the way we do things, the excuses and sorrys we give. In first place, why we have to do such things that we ended up doing sorrys and excuses. Who are we ? Killing of innocents, destroying the properties and injuring many other, it is not even close to what Islam teaches us. If these acts are done by radicals of Islam than where is this mainstream Muslims. Why we havnt taken any constructive measures so that act of radicals get diminish.

We are Muslims. But than what has happened to us. We are we so weak and fragile, dispersed around the globe that we can't even form a uniformity on the situation at hand. There are around 57 Muslim countries and some significant population of Muslims living around the earth but we are still unable to properly condem the situation. Why we can't ask UN to pass Intrnational Law that no such disgusting act be done against any prophet and to any Reglious scripture.

Islam is a Religion for Peace and we are suppose to represent it...Although maintaing peace is a responsiblity of each human, but we Muslims have a prime responsiblity to promote and maintain the Peace. But unfortunetly our reality is far from what it should really be. What we have been taught by Islam, and look at what we are doing...so
Who are we ? Where are "WE" ?



Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 September 2012 at 10:12pm

You say "we" as if that one little word can encompass all Muslims.  It can't, or at least it shouldn't.  Before you can take "constructive measures" against the spread of violence and extremism within Islam, you need to stop thinking in terms of a unified "we", so that "you" peaceful Muslims can distance yourselves from "them", the extremists and radicals.

Also, I found this one sentence disturbingly out of step with the rest of your message:

Originally posted by m.sumair

Why we can't ask UN to pass Intrnational Law that no such disgusting act be done against any prophet and to any Reglious scripture.

You seem to want peace, but only on your terms.  That is not peace, but surrender.  If you truly want peace -- if you want the right to believe what you want and live as you choose -- then you must allow others to believe what they want and live as they choose.  That may mean that others will say and do things you find disgusting.  Too bad.  No one has the right not to be disgusted.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 22 September 2012 at 9:12pm
Greetings Ron Webb,

Seprating "we" into "us" and "them", its easier said than done. Actually we are at a distance from such radical people. We donot own their actions, they maybe doing this in sheer ignorance or for other agenda (tht has nothng to do with Islam). But keeping a distance is not helping, they do what they want to do and we remain aside thinking/feeling bad about it...than what, they doit again ! and we still remain aside. We are unable to stop them. They sabotage the Religion internally 'Doing things in the name of Islam', but than what we are doing to stop this sabotage. (In my opinion) We have gotten weak in our parctices and teachings of Islam, but we have to cope up fast so that we can rectify this utterness. Its upto us to try n reduce these bad actions.

I say "we" to those who learn and parctise Islam, I never include "them" with "us", "they" normally USE the Religion, or are ignorant of it teachings.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 22 September 2012 at 9:22pm
...Asking UN to pass a Law is not just our terms. It is not the first time that the prophet personality is being humiliated. Lately, prophet Moses and prophet Jesus (may God have peace upon them) have been a subjuct of such mockery. People who hate religion are doing whatever they please, Publicly. My point is, freedom of speech is good but than each freedom come with limits.

Belief in different Religions, or not believing at all, is debatable. But making out mockery of any belief, is tripping over the line. One may disscus his belief/concern in a moral and ethical ways, but this is not even near to morality. If UN passes the Law to stop such actions than it will be for all Religions. Islam is not the first to get mocked. They have been doing this for sometimes, now (whoever they are).

Peace would come from mutual harmony, and things that distorts mutual harmony should be rectify. So the Laws shall be made and actions should be taken to rectify such things.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 September 2012 at 10:29pm

Originally posted by m.sumair

But keeping a distance is not helping, they do what they want to do and we remain aside thinking/feeling bad about it...than what, they doit again !

Keeping a distance from extremism, both physically and rhetorically, does help.  The participation of thousands of "mainstream" Muslims in the protest outside the embassy provided crucial "cover" for the attack by a relatively small number of extremists.  If the moderates had simply stayed home, the result might have been different.  At least, it would have been clear that the extremists represented only a small minority of Muslims.

People who hate religion are doing whatever they please, Publicly.

As is their right.  Again, if you have the right to say what you want about Muhammad, then so do we.  Frankly, I find many things that Muhammad said and did to be offensive; but I would never seek a law preventing you from repeating them, Publicly.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 22 September 2012 at 11:40pm
:) You found many things to be offensive of prophet Muhammad...but than have u studied the life of Muhammad or have u heard about it by someone or somewhere bcoz hearing things means it could be out of context, personal opinion or it could be personal vandal.

Well talking about freedom and right of speech, I don't find it completely excriseble. You can talk about Islam either way.. fine, but than can you compose poetry or other literature against the atrocites of Jews in Palastian and than 'stay free' afterwards. Can you discuss Holocaust and go free. (a genocide ! I agree)

They can ban you, restrict you, bcoz they can do it. They are in power, they rule banks and major economy..you can't speak against their feelings, and go free. But u can certainly do this against Islam, u suddenly remember all ur rights to be exercised.
FREEDOM of Speech..
AmaZing..


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 September 2012 at 9:17am
I'm not sure what you are saying.  Are you in favour of free speech, or not?  You seem to object to restrictions on criticism of the Jews in Palestine, or in discussing the Holocaust, and yet you advocate similar restrictions when it comes to criticism of Islam. Confused

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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 23 September 2012 at 10:51am
Originally posted by m.sumair

Who are we? Killing of innocents, destroying the properties and injuring many other, it is not even close to what Islam teaches us. If these acts are done by radicals of Islam than where is this mainstream Muslims. Why we havnt taken any constructive measures so that act of radicals get diminish.

There is no leadership in the Sunni camp, and in this camp each group has king on their own with the appetite of publicity and recognition. And each king will never go down no matter what happen. The Shiah which has a leader seems working much better, where adventurism by mini kings refrained.

Islam is a Religion for Peace and we are suppose to represent it...Although maintaing peace is a responsiblity of each human, but we Muslims have a prime responsiblity to promote and maintain the Peace. But unfortunetly our reality is far from what it should really be. What we have been taught by Islam, and look at what we are doing...so
Who are we ? Where are "WE" ?

You know from my experience, the willingness to give for others is the starting point of solid community. If you have seen in the hajj where the muslims who are supposedly in the top end of spiritual journey pushing each other to pray in the front row, and hijacking other people bus and tent is good enough information for me that many of us are very selfish people. It is the ME first before everything is the opposite of this teaching below here, thats why I can savely say that the muslims in general don't know what Islam is, let alone the non muslims:

Therefor have I warned you of the flaming Fire (92:14)
Which only the most wretched must endure, (92:15)
He who denieth and turneth away. (92:16)
Far removed from it will be the righteous (92:17)
Who giveth his wealth that he may grow (in goodness). (92:18)
And none hath with him any favour for reward, (92:19)



Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 24 September 2012 at 9:05pm
@Ron, Lol..I object or not object :) the point is You cannot do this against jews. The Restriction is on, and to be frankly i want the same Restriction on this side.. I hope that u undestand or.. Do u get more confused ??


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 24 September 2012 at 9:42pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/california-state-assembly_b_1842841.html - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/california-state-assembly_b_1842841.html
 
 
 
  1. http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1101295800375-886/HR+35+Letter+PDF+FINAL.pdf - An open letter to assemblymembers http://calsjp.org/?p=1297#fnref5 -


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 24 September 2012 at 9:54pm
@Nothing, i agree to ur post except that I 'wish' Muslims get beyond this Sunni Shia thing and be a one parctising Muslim.(anyways...just speaking my mind)

The ME attitude of Muslims and weak parctice of Islam make us vulnerable to the attacks on our identity. Thats what I said in my first post "Where are 'WE' ?" Why we lack in We attitude when we are Muslims. Who are We? we say, we are Muslims but still find hard to pull it together.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 4:41am

Originally posted by m.sumair

@Ron, Lol..I object or not object :) the point is You cannot do this against jews. The Restriction is on, and to be frankly i want the same Restriction on this side.. I hope that u undestand or.. Do u get more confused ??

Thanks for that clarification.  Okay, so earlier you wrote:

Originally posted by m.sumair

Well talking about freedom and right of speech, I don't find it completely excriseble. You can talk about Islam either way.. fine, but than can you compose poetry or other literature against the atrocites of Jews in Palastian and than 'stay free' afterwards. Can you discuss Holocaust and go free. (a genocide ! I agree)

You're absolutely right that you can get into trouble for spreading false information about a minority group with the intent to promote discrimination, e.g. denying that the Holocaust happened.  So for instance:

They can ban you, restrict you, bcoz they can do it. They are in power, they rule banks and major economy..you can't speak against their feelings, and go free. But u can certainly do this against Islam, u suddenly remember all ur rights to be exercised.

You could quite possibly get in trouble for repeating the above nonsense in bold, if you did so publicly enough and in a context implying hatred or animosity.

On the other hand, you can certainly criticize or ridicule a minority, as long as you stick to the facts and as long as your purpose is not clearly to incite hatred and violence.  There was recently a great Broadway musical comedy called "The Book of Mormon", which mocks the religion of Mormonism, for instance.  Unfortunately I didn't get to see it myself, but I understand it was a big hit.  I have heard several of the songs from it and they are hilarious.  Would your proposed legislation ban this musical?



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

You say "we" as if that one little word can encompass all Muslims.  It can't, or at least it shouldn't.  Before you can take "constructive measures" against the spread of violence and extremism within Islam, you need to stop thinking in terms of a unified "we", so that "you" peaceful Muslims can distance yourselves from "them", the extremists and radicals.

Also, I found this one sentence disturbingly out of step with the rest of your message:

Originally posted by m.sumair

Why we can't ask UN to pass Intrnational Law that no such disgusting act be done against any prophet and to any Reglious scripture.

You seem to want peace, but only on your terms.  That is not peace, but surrender.  If you truly want peace -- if you want the right to believe what you want and live as you choose -- then you must allow others to believe what they want and live as they choose.  That may mean that others will say and do things you find disgusting.  Too bad.  No one has the right not to be disgusted.



I found that one line disturbing and out of sync too.
For another reason.
Here I thought this person was addressing condemning the violent of acts of those calling themselves Muslims and purportedly following the teaching of Muhammad and the Qur'an...
and then He throws in his (real intent?)... his real concern?
The concern is to condemn those who speak freely and not those who act horrendously?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 11:21am
Originally posted by m.sumair

...Asking UN to pass a Law is not just our terms. It is not the first time that the prophet personality is being humiliated. Lately, prophet Moses and prophet Jesus (may God have peace upon them) have been a subjuct of such mockery. People who hate religion are doing whatever they please, Publicly. My point is, freedom of speech is good but than each freedom come with limits.

Belief in different Religions, or not believing at all, is debatable. But making out mockery of any belief, is tripping over the line. One may disscus his belief/concern in a moral and ethical ways, but this is not even near to morality. If UN passes the Law to stop such actions than it will be for all Religions. Islam is not the first to get mocked. They have been doing this for sometimes, now (whoever they are).

Peace would come from mutual harmony, and things that distorts mutual harmony should be rectify. So the Laws shall be made and actions should be taken to rectify such things.


Ok, reading this I can agree with you...
un-Godliness has gotten out of hand and we would do well to put God back in the equation of human living, and this could be done by not allowing any mockery of any religion.
Has any man made measure ever in history worked to make a difference though?  or is God the only one who can bring about the change of hearts that is needed to drive people back to Him?  All through ancient history we have seen how the people continue to go astray and there is only one forthcoming solution to this problem.  Man has never been able to accomplish it on his own.
Though I agree... we must try... but peacefully.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 11:34am
Originally posted by nothing


You know from my experience, the willingness to give for others is the starting point of solid community. If you have seen in the hajj where the muslims who are supposedly in the top end of spiritual journey pushing each other to pray in the front row, and hijacking other people bus and tent is good enough information for me that many of us are very selfish people. It is the ME first before everything is the opposite of this teaching below here, thats why I can savely say that the muslims in general don't know what Islam is, let alone the non muslims:

Therefor have I warned you of the flaming Fire (92:14)
Which only the most wretched must endure, (92:15)
He who denieth and turneth away. (92:16)
Far removed from it will be the righteous (92:17)
Who giveth his wealth that he may grow (in goodness). (92:18)
And none hath with him any favour for reward, (92:19)



Greetings Nothing,
I'm sorry, and I know that many will find this offensive, but I agree with you...
the problem... for me... what I have seen in studying Islam... is preceisely what you say...
it is a 'me' message... It is all about doing for the purpose of what I will get...
It is very much geared towards a mindset of 'what will I get?' for doing what I do.
It does not put forth well a message of giving for the sake of giving...
or that giving is its own reward because you are serving God.  There is no message of Love.
It's all about what will I get... selfish ambition (which is from one other than God, opposed to God)
This is why I have not been able to accept the message of Muhammad as a message from God.
I will add that I am not through with my study,
and that I believe it is possible that something begun as not good can be made good, by God's willing hand(remember Joseph?), and man's discernment.  I do not know that Muhammad had wrong intent... just maybe wrongly guided.  And now many following his message are wrongly guided.  There is some good... some Truth included in the message... It is necessary for Islam's people, and its leaders, to extract the good... and leave what is not good.
Heart


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 12:39am
@Ron, I never denied that holocaust ever happened (if thts wat u
meant) and there was no intent to cause any discrimination, I wonder
what were you thinking? My point is quite simple that when you are in
Power, (weathr minority or majority) you tend to subjugate rights of
others (weather minority or majority) either intentionally or
unintentionally. So this whole talk of freedom of Expression is "good"
as long as you talk against those not in power. When you dare to speak
 against those in power, against their injustice and chaos, than they
will  banish you (the history is clear & so is present, from such acts).

So can I say, that you can get in trouble for spreading false
information about a Prophet with the intent to promote hatred and
discrimination, for instance We can ban you, restrict you from propagating such nonsense. (I personally don't think so because we are "others")

Ron you said :
Originally posted by RON WEBB

You could quite possibly get in trouble for repeating the above nonsense in bold, if you did so publicly enough and in a context implying hatred or animosity.


Now this is something that I am keen to comment. Me saying this nonsense in public will get me in trouble, while "they" saying nonsense against Prophet in public is a Freedom of expression. Don't you think its a double standards?

Smile And don't worry about my statement...I said that because than, we can have something common to share (the feel of nonsense being said)... 

I will say again, to imply the Emphasis that Freedom of Speech/Expression is good, it enables you to be a free man, but with each freedom there comes a limitation. Freedom without boundaries is worst than being imprisoned. You do pay care to what you express in private and in public, its a common human sense that implied in daily lives.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 1:03am
Originally posted by CARINGHEART

I found that one line disturbing and out of sync too.
For another reason.
Here I thought this person was addressing condemning the violent of acts of those calling themselves Muslims and purportedly following the teaching of Muhammad and the Qur'an...
and then He throws in his (real intent?)... his real concern?
The concern is to condemn those who speak freely and not those who act horrendously.


Greetings Caringheart, it would have been very kind of you, if you had just read the complete thread and than have commented on my "real intent". To me it felt a bit rude, but Anyways Smile..my real intent is to condemn those who act horrendously, including the act of ill-speech/videos.

Originally posted by CARINGHEART

Has any man made measure ever in history worked to make a difference though?  or is God the only one who can bring about the change of hearts that is needed to drive people back to Him?  All through ancient history we have seen how the people continue to go astray and there is only one forthcoming solution to this problem.  Man has never been able to accomplish it on his own.
Though I agree... we must try... but peacefully.


Thumbs%20Up Surely the God is only one who bring change to the hearts and the honest follow-ship of the religion can bring about that change because God never mislead His servants.      


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 4:38am

Originally posted by m.sumair

@Ron, I never denied that holocaust ever happened (if thts wat u meant) and there was no intent to cause any discrimination, I wonder what were you thinking? My point is quite simple that when you are in Power, (weathr minority or majority) you tend to subjugate rights of others (weather minority or majority) either intentionally or unintentionally. So this whole talk of freedom of Expression is "good" as long as you talk against those not in power. When you dare to speak against those in power, against their injustice and chaos, than they will  banish you (the history is clear & so is present, from such acts).

You're right, and that is precisely why we need laws protecting freedom of expression.  As it has been said many times, if freedom of expression is to mean anything at all it must include freedom for speech that is unpopular or that we personally hate.  Speech that is popular and that we like obviously doesn't need protection.

So can I say, that you can get in trouble for spreading false information about a Prophet with the intent to promote hatred and discrimination, for instance We can ban you, restrict you from propagating such nonsense. (I personally don't think so because we are "others")

Absolutely.  If you claim that Muhammad had sex with a dog, you could probably get arrested, because it is a blatant lie with the clear intent of inciting hatred.  On the other hand, it is okay to say that he had sex with a nine year old girl (Aisha), because that is factually correct, or at least there is ample evidence to support it.  What you make of that fact is up to you.

And just for the record, truth is not an absolute defense against libel charges either, but it is at least a strong mitigating factor, depending on the jurisdiction.  Let's not get into the details of libel laws.
 
Ron you said :
Originally posted by RON WEBB

You could quite possibly get in trouble for repeating the above nonsense in bold, if you did so publicly enough and in a context implying hatred or animosity.

Now this is something that I am keen to comment. Me saying this nonsense in public will get me in trouble, while "they" saying nonsense against Prophet in public is a Freedom of expression. Don't you think its a double standards?

The phrase in bold was "They are in power, they rule banks and major economy."  This is factually incorrect.  It is a lie repeated over and over by anti-Semites to incite hatred and distrust of Jews.  You could say that Jews are disproportionately represented in the banking industry, which may be true for historical reasons, but their absolute numbers are simply too small to be "ruling" anything.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 10:51am
Originally posted by m.sumair



Greetings Caringheart, it would have been very kind of you, if you had just read the complete thread and than have commented on my "real intent".

Thumbs%20Up Surely the God is only one who bring change to the hearts and the honest follow-ship of the religion can bring about that change because God never mislead His servants.      


Greetings m.sumair,

I apologize and you are of course correct.  I did not remove the earlier post simply because I did want to say, or agree, that that one comment of yours did stick out like a sore thumb.  I guess much the same way my comment did. Embarrassed  Please accept my apologies.  I had hoped that my continuation would make the necessary amends.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 5:52am

Assalamu Alaikum/Peace be upon you,

A comment about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has been made with regards to his relation with Aisha (RA). While there may be some disagreement with regards to the age of Aisha (RA) at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (peace be upon him), one thing is unanimously agreed by the scholars in Islam that the Prophet had an excellent relationship with his wives, and his marriage was in line with the prevalent traditions in those times. The excellent character of the Prophet has been greatly appreciated by many prominent non-Muslims as well.

I cannot go in details as it is not the topic of this thread.

Since the Muslims intensely love the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions, including Aisha (RA), a cordial and respectful discussion about these personalities can go a long way to develop mutual understanding and cooperation. 



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 10:56am
Originally posted by peacemaker

A comment about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has been made with regards to his relation with Aisha (RA).

I probably should have apologized in advance for that remark.  It was not my intent to offend, but rather to show how one could offend, while staying within the legal protection of freedom of expression.

You're right that Muhammad's marriage to Aisha would have been considered normal and acceptable within the context of his time and society.  I guess it is just another illustration of the fact that just because Muhammad did something or approved of something, that doesn't mean it is acceptable or advisable in all societies and for all time.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I probably should have apologized in advance for that remark.  It was not my intent to offend, but rather to show how one could offend, while staying within the legal protection of freedom of expression.


Stern%20Smile Your "advance" apology would have been, if you had wrote this in your  previous Post.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha would have been considered normal and acceptable within the context of his time and society.  I guess it is just another illustration of the fact that just because Muhammad did something or approved of something, that doesn't mean it is acceptable or advisable in all societies and for all time.


Confused I wonder what are you trying to get at..So u are saying(as per your illustration) that marriage is not acceptable and advisable to societies but sex and per-marital affairs are for the well-being of the society...that's absurd..(maybe not for you).

You remembered I asked you a question that :
Originally posted by m.sumair

but than have u studied the life of Muhammad or have u heard about it by someone or somewhere bcoz hearing things means it could be out of context, personal opinion or it could be personal vandal.

And I have got the answer..I know now where is your opinion coming from, so you can now spare the rest of it.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

The phrase in bold was "They are in power, they rule banks and major economy."  This is factually incorrect.


It is not factually wrong or conspiracy theory, its a open secret. I wonder why a certain percentage of American people tax goes directly to Israel. The tax of Americans belongs to America..Is Israel part of America? Why each year a portion( in $ billion) of Israel Defense Budget is funded by America(in National Securities) ? Isn't America is hit by rescission and unemployment, Don't they have immediate concern for people instead of funding in Defense budget of Israel?     
     



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 10:11am
Originally posted by m.sumair


It is not factually wrong or conspiracy theory, its a open secret. I wonder why a certain percentage of American people tax goes directly to Israel. The tax of Americans belongs to America..Is Israel part of America? Why each year a portion( in $ billion) of Israel Defense Budget is funded by America(in National Securities) ? Isn't America is hit by rescission and unemployment, Don't they have immediate concern for people instead of funding in Defense budget of Israel?     


Greetings m.sumair,

Not wishing to be antagonistic here, but I have a genuine question;
Do you profess to know how it is that governments must be run?
Didn't Muhammad take taxes from certain people in exchange for services?
If U.S. sends money to Israel it must be for a purpose, for something they are receiving in return.  Perhaps added security in the world.  Do you profess to know about how all international exchange works?  Because I know I certainly can't make this claim, but I do know that I would wish to do what could be done to ensure that there would be no nuclear attacks made in the world.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 4:17pm

Originally posted by m.sumair

I wonder what are you trying to get at..So u are saying(as per your illustration) that marriage is not acceptable and advisable to societies but sex and per-marital affairs are for the well-being of the society...that's absurd..(maybe not for you).

You're right, it's absurd; and you know perfectly well that's not what I meant, or you wouldn't have expected an apology for it.

It is not factually wrong or conspiracy theory, its a open secret. I wonder why a certain percentage of American people tax goes directly to Israel.

Probably for the same reason that an even greater percentage (in total) goes to various Muslim countries, notably including Pakistan.  Because war is big business, and big business (not the Jews) to a large extent controls the American government.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 03 October 2012 at 7:39am
Originally posted by Caringheart

but I have a genuine question;
Do you profess to know how it is that governments must be run?
Didn't Muhammad take taxes from certain people in exchange for services?
If U.S. sends money to Israel it must be for a purpose, for something they are receiving in return.  Perhaps added security in the world.


Greetings Caringheart,
Yes Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) took taxes from non-Muslims while Zakat was taken by Muslims (though tax system was quite simple). Surely this is how the government runs, with the contribution of People.
Just asking out of curiosity, Is it just recent that U.S start sending money to Israel or does it dates back, even before 9/11?

I totally agree with you,
Originally posted by Caringheart

but I do know that I would wish to do what could be done to ensure that there would be no nuclear attacks made in the world.
 

But the race of Nuclear Arsenal should be stopped completely and I'm quite certain that you know who is far ahead in the race. Around 10000 war-heads of Neutron Bombs are at disposal of US Army. Israel is continuously advancing in war-tech, and this is quite threatening for countries that are in conflict with Israel. Now I don't understand this that, How come investing in war(Defenses) brings Peace to world(or least this region)? It creates more tension, of what I understand.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Do you profess to know about how all international exchange works?  Because I know I certainly can't make this claim
    

Do you mean FOREX. One currency getting strong or weak against other.
Well that depends on overall Economy, the foreign Investment in State, Employment Import n Export...thats what you meant.
So ur saying that US is providing Funds to Israel so that Israel strengthen the US Economy and hence International Exchange.

Pardon me, If i get it wrong.
Greetings Smile


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 03 October 2012 at 7:51am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

war is big business, and big business (not the Jews) to a large extent controls the American government.


I sure hope you know what you are saying, because if war is a BIG Business,
than in order to remain in profit they must do what it takes to grow the business... and war brings destruction and chaos to the lives of many.
....Keep increasing the tension and the business will grow further and further.

Lately I saw a movie Sherlock Holmes- A Game of Shadows,
the story theme was soo true...

 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 October 2012 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by m.sumair




Greetings m.sumair,

I appreciate your response. Smile

I would have to do research, but I believe the U.S., and many other countries, have been allies with Israel ever since its inception in 1948... and yes, this means they financially and militarily support one another... no different than the way Iran supports Syria, and all other countries do with one another according to what benefits them and their people.
"How come investing in war(Defenses) brings Peace to world(or least this region)? It creates more tension, of what I understand."
I can not say I understand this either, except that people have always had a need to defend themselves against aggressors.  Unhappy
"Do you mean FOREX. One currency getting strong or weak against other.
Well that depends on overall Economy, the foreign Investment in State, Employment Import n Export...thats what you meant.
So ur saying that US is providing Funds to Israel so that Israel strengthen the US Economy and hence International Exchange."
Well I actually wasn't referring to finances specifically, but the overall general larger picture of exchange between countries, which encompasses many aspects.  Part of this, as I addressed in my first part of this response... I think countries try to build strong allegiances with one another that will encourage and support exchange of goods... boosting economy of each country... supplying necessary and needed goods... which in turn these life links encourage the building of strong support of one another in security of the place from which you derive those goods needed to support your own people.  Any intelligently run country wants to do business with those others who can supply their needs.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 October 2012 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by m.sumair


Lately I saw a movie Sherlock Holmes- A Game of Shadows,
the story theme was soo true...


I am putting that in my Netflix queue to watch.  Smile


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 03 October 2012 at 4:14pm

Originally posted by m.sumair

I sure hope you know what you are saying, because if war is a BIG Business,
than in order to remain in profit they must do what it takes to grow the business... and war brings destruction and chaos to the lives of many.
....Keep increasing the tension and the business will grow further and further.

That is exactly what I am saying.  It's the same on both sides of the divide: those in power maintain that power by fomenting fear and hatred of the Other.  On our side, power is mostly measured in money, while on yours, it is mostly religious; but otherwise the process is the same.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 4:03am
Originally posted by Caringheart

have always had a need to defend themselves against aggressors


True..But the "need" to defend, tends to get more Aggressive when there is a notion that says Pre-emptive Strikes. It poses constant threat, and the "need" to defend keeps on growing even more...


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 4:46am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

[/QUOTE]


WOW!..hardcore, true but hardcore. On our side They do use Religious notions to ignite people feelings, manipulate them the way they want. They are able to do such things because most of us are ignorant of true religious practices and among us those who are learned, have less to say or do in such disturbing matters.

So here is my say: (the real reason to start the thread)

-Those People protesting at US Embassy were mostly ignorant(of the whole situation, and the Islamic values to handle this situation),these people are from among us.

-Than there were those People that uses the Religious name for their own motives and propaganda, manipulate ignorant people and be able to fulfill their mean motives. These are culprits.

Now my point is we (the learned ones) should propagate the true values of Islam, not just outside but within the Muslim community. This what we Really need to do, we should rectify the ignorance from our people. To be honest, most of these people don't really know what they are doing, They think that this is the right thing to do. So we have to beat the ignorance out of people. Once they are able to make better judgment (enlight of Islam) than they can't be manipulated by those culprits and they (and their acts) will be out casted.

But right now we have lot of work to do....No wonder that these culprits have been assassinating the Learned Personals since about a decade now. They don't want people to get the true teachings of Islam, they want us to stay ignorant.Ignorance is the worst disease of all.
     


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 5:09am
My original theme of starting this thread was to share my views about our ignorance and have an input from my Muslims bros. and sis., they could have agree, disagree share/discuss their views (Ofcourse anyone can comment, as it is open forum ).

But it seems I was not able to communicate my thoughts properly and so was not able to achieve desired objective....
Anyways I did had pretty good discussion with these two fellows here and it was rationally objective.
Greetings


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 7:53am
Originally posted by m.sumair

[IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" /> My original theme of starting this thread was to share my views about our ignorance and have an input from my Muslims bros. and sis., they could have agree, disagree share/discuss their views (Ofcourse anyone can comment, as it is open forum [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" />).

But it seems I was not able to communicate my thoughts properly and so was not able to achieve desired objective....
Anyways I did had pretty good discussion with these two fellows here and it was rationally objective.
Greetings [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" />


As-Salaam Alaikum,

What do you want Muslims to say M.Sumair?

Hakeema




Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 08 October 2012 at 7:03am
As-salaam Alaikum,
Originally posted by Hakeema

What do you want Muslims to say M.Sumair?

Hakeema


I dunno, i mean share anything you want, what you want to say... The reason why I share this because I was a bit disturbed on recent happenings, continuous defaming of Islam, and we Muslims are almost helpless about handling such situations and those who decided to act were either went rogue or their actions were to little effect.


We Muslims have better and brighter history. The Companions of Prophet (May Allah be please with them all) are the best examples for us, for society..But we Muslims are in quite jeopardy, we are having hard time coping with are brighter history.

So Hakeema, am I able to make myself understandable, or am I still unclear to you. :)
By-the-way Have you read the complete thread.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 3:35am
I think the following general message can give us a clue about what's wrong with the thinking of many moderate Muslims, who indeed want peace yet their approach isn't working. I found this on Islamicity posted very recently:

"It is imperative to refrain from linking any faith or community to criminals."

Guidelines like this make matters worse. I'll give you an example.

"Hitler and Goebbels and Himmler and Eichmann were not really Germans. In fact they were not really human beings. They were beasts. Only beasts are capable of ordering the murder of millions of Jews, homosexuals, communists and mentally ill people."

Well, that's a delusion. Hitlers and all the others were indeed Germans. They committed crimes in the name of German nationalism. And they were not elephants or lions. They were human beings. So we can conclude that there are indeed human beings capable of committing heinous crimes. How can we deal with this? Like this: Stop them, arrest them, try them, punish them. And create a different kind of Germany. And this was what happened. The country was almost completely destroyed. Today it is the forth richest country in the world and a country who treats other countries with respect. Are there still Nazis? Yes, there are a few neo-Nazis. Are they Germans? Yes, they are German citizens. It's a shame. They are a disgrace. But it's the truth. Every now and then neo-Nazis commit crimes and when this happens we try to catch them and very often there are thousands of German demonstrators taking to the streets speaking out against neo-Nazism.

In the past there were Christians who killed people in the name of Christianity. Giordano Bruno is a famous example. We have to link Christianity to crimes. Because that was reality. Christianity did change over the centuries.

Osama bin Laden, Mullah Omar and all the others are linked to the faith of Islam. They don't represent the majority of Muslims, but they commit crimes in the name of Islam. The same goes for the angry young men who became violent when protesting against a dumb video. They are Muslims. Again, a minority. But unlike the frequent anti-Nazism demonstrations we see all the time, there are more than a billion Muslims who never demonstrate against violent Muslims. They rather take the simple approach. These extremists are not really Muslims, so why bother. The real Muslims are perfect. The real Islam is perfect (and of course superior to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and so forth).

It is imperative to refrain from linking Islam to criminals. No need for demonstrations. No need to speak up. No need to leave the comfort zone. Really?

I think some members here on Islamicity have realized that something has to change. We need a new official interpretation of the Quran and the Hadith. We need an Islam that can evolve. Slavery and violence were the norm in 600 CE. But killing apostates and blasphemers cannot be the norm in 2012 CE. Using words like disbelievers was the norm in the past. But it should no longer be the norm today.

The "Who are We" question is encouraging. Thank you for asking it.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt



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